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DynoMoxie
01-14-2006, 11:49 AM
1) Rookie offensive lineman are rarely productive their first two seasons.
2) You can't draft 5 of them.
3) Free agency is the best way to address offensive line problems.
4) Get a new qb who doesn't hold the ball over the 3-4 seconds the average nfl qb has to deliver the football.

I don't care if we end up with one of the best offensive lines in the league. We'll never win a Super Bowl with David Carr. We'll be lucky to ever see the playoffs. He'll never have the decision-making ability necessary to reach that level. You can save this somewhere and hold me to it. He's not a leader.

All of you who think Vince Young's such a bad choice...his mobility and threat to break it all the way (much like Vick) changes the way a defense comes after a qb. They pin their ears back against Carr because they don't even remotely entertain the thought of him being any kind of threat to hurt them that way. Teams won't sell out to the pass rush against him wherever he ends up. In a very short time he's going to be a star...and you can also hold me to this one...he's going to be an above average passer. He's a leader and a great split-second decision maker. A team will follow him. Oh well, let the Texans waste all their draft picks on trying to help David Carr be the same disappointment he'll always be...and then everyone can just keep on moaning and groaning about the Texans.

Xman
01-14-2006, 11:57 AM
We can't fix it all in one year - but if we draft 3 OL then we can count on them in 2 or 3 years, which is when we realistically should be better anyway.

As far as Young and his mobility: he has A CHANCE to be something special, BUT the odds are against it. Running qbs have been successful in college for years - and not in the NFL. Even Vick, who was supposed to be the guy, has not succeeded. So, the odds are high that VY flops. Everyone has ignored Leinert, but he was 29 of 40 in the Rose Bowl and threw for a hundred yards more than VY - and that was against the better D.

The Kid
01-14-2006, 12:12 PM
1) Rookie offensive lineman are rarely productive their first two seasons.

If we keep this philosophy we will always be two seasons away from being a playoff team. The draft isn't just about who will be the best in one or two years. Nobody should be expecting a Superbowl next year, and in order to build a good team you need to draft players that will help you in the long run.

DynoMoxie
01-14-2006, 12:14 PM
X-man, I've read some of your other replies and I like most of what you have to say...most of it makes sense. Everyone is against changing quarterbacks because they say that makes us a project team again...not one that will be competitive immediately. Well, I don't see the draft making us immediately competitive anyway. Do you believe that David Carr is the quarterback who can lead us to the playoffs and to an eventual Super Bowl? You'd better go look at some stats and game film of Vince Young. His passing abilities were far superior to Michael Vick's...and he's shown improvement in that area every season he's played. Michael Vick doesn't have leadership qualities. Vince Young's proven to the entire nation that he does. Someone's going to get a gem and be a contender very soon with Vince. I'd love to see Matt Leinart as our qb before remaining stuck with David Carr. The optimal would be to get a couple of very good players plus a couple of draft picks for that top spot but then we still have David Carr. I've watched religiously for Carr's first 3 seasons. I've seen enough. It's going to take a great quarterback coach who's a miracle worker to give David Carr the two main tools he's missing...decision-making and leadership. These are two that are hard taught. The greats already have them.

DynoMoxie
01-14-2006, 12:34 PM
If we keep this philosophy we will always be two seasons away from being a playoff team. The draft isn't just about who will be the best in one or two years. Nobody should be expecting a Superbowl next year, and in order to build a good team you need to draft players that will help you in the long run.

Understand the point I'm trying to make. Everyone thinks drafting Reggie Bush is going to make us an instant contender. Everyone says drafting another quarterback is going to put us back into the project mode. I say we're in a project mode any way you look at the Texans. Let's make it positive. I agree with you about the future. If we only choose to draft one player using that very first pick you don't spend it on an offensive lineman. I'm not saying getting a great runningback is a bad choice. I am saying if you've spent 3 years on a quarterback and it's obvious it's not going to get better...you need to use that one pick on a quarterback who can take you where you want to go in the near future. That's if you're only going to get the one player. That's my position. If we spend that pick on anything other than a quarterback that has great potential then we've wasted it. Offensive linemen can be drafted with later round picks and acquired through free agency. We have a couple of runningbacks that aren't Reggie Bush but are good enough to give us a running game. David Carr's the reason for the sacks, the turnovers, the lack of Andre Johnson's production. I could go on and on but I won't.

F-minus67
01-14-2006, 02:07 PM
Most high round draft picks do produce early in their carear, look at the way that the bengals got their o line fixed. They got LG Eric Steinbach in the 2nd as well as LT Levi Jones in the 1st, whom both have started every game since they were drafted. Or the Pats who have started 2 rookies on their o line this year.

MorKnolle
01-14-2006, 03:27 PM
If we keep this philosophy we will always be two seasons away from being a playoff team. The draft isn't just about who will be the best in one or two years. Nobody should be expecting a Superbowl next year, and in order to build a good team you need to draft players that will help you in the long run.

I'm betting that we can find a couple OLinemen in the draft that will be more effective in their rookie year than Vince Young will be in his rookie year. No rookies are ever generally successful, RBs are the generally the best in their rookie year. This OLine has to be addressed at some point if we're ever going to be a good team, and LeCharles Bentley is the only good free agent that we have a chance of getting, plus most of the rookie OLinemen that will go in the first two rounds will be immediate upgrades over almost all of our current guys.

Spoda
01-14-2006, 03:31 PM
as i have said before..we don't need lineman...vince will never be sacked..in fact all we need is a center to snap the ball...vince will either juke everyone to their knees or throw to himself...or the other team will just quit before the game..cause you can't beat vince...i say trade all of our picks away for all texas exes...so they can watch vince too...defense you say? don't worry, vince will handle that..he is amazing....the other teams offense will not try to score as to not upset vince because he will injure everyone with his sick moves...superbowl for the next 20 years in a row..hell maybe more!! just get vince!!!!!!




please trade the pick

The Preacher
01-14-2006, 03:47 PM
Carr has been through more BS with this line than is imaginable by most any fan.

No time to learn how to read defenses so how can you say he can't read them-not his fault.
Only one good receiver who is always doubled-not his fault
No TE ever-not his fault

It's amazing he's never been hurt.
Give him a line for once before you say he's not a leader. He has the passion and the faith to be a great leader. Hopefully they'll draft some lineman and give him a chance.

texan61
01-14-2006, 03:51 PM
No good o-lineman is going to want to come to Houston. We should use the draft and hope a new coaching staff can help them.

ghostlight
01-14-2006, 04:00 PM
I'm sure this is a repeat but there are some very good OL that will be avl. in the second round this year. Has anybody rated the positions yet. I know the combine is in the future but there must be a by position rating going on somewhere.

MorKnolle
01-14-2006, 04:11 PM
No good o-lineman is going to want to come to Houston. We should use the draft and hope a new coaching staff can help them.

I think we have a legitimate shot at bringing in LeCharles Bentley if we pursue him early before someone else grabs him.

I'm sure this is a repeat but there are some very good OL that will be avl. in the second round this year. Has anybody rated the positions yet. I know the combine is in the future but there must be a by position rating going on somewhere.

True, there should be a lot of good interior OL available in the 2nd round, but at the same time we neep multiple new OLinemen this year, including one OT, and the good OTs will be gone in the 1st round.

Peldon
01-14-2006, 04:30 PM
I find it amusing that some people say we shouldn't trade down since this is a deep draft and we can pick up good people in the later rounds. In my opinion this is just another reason we should trade down. If we get more picks from a trade there will be better players to choose from and we can fill more holes with good players. If it is such a deep draft wouldn't you want to get as many players as possible from it? Just my :twocents:

MorKnolle
01-14-2006, 04:40 PM
I find it amusing that some people say we shouldn't trade down since this is a deep draft and we can pick up good people in the later rounds. In my opinion this is just another reason we should trade down. If we get more picks from a trade there will be better players to choose from and we can fill more holes with good players. If it is such a deep draft wouldn't you want to get as many players as possible from it? Just my :twocents:

I totally agree, if it is such a deep draft then I would think you'd want as many picks as possible to get as many of those good people, conversely in a draft without many good players, you'd be looking to stay at the top or trade up to the top of the draft and grab one of the few good players available.

Xman
01-14-2006, 10:21 PM
X-man, I've read some of your other replies and I like most of what you have to say...most of it makes sense. Everyone is against changing quarterbacks because they say that makes us a project team again...not one that will be competitive immediately. Well, I don't see the draft making us immediately competitive anyway. Do you believe that David Carr is the quarterback who can lead us to the playoffs and to an eventual Super Bowl? You'd better go look at some stats and game film of Vince Young. His passing abilities were far superior to Michael Vick's...and he's shown improvement in that area every season he's played. Michael Vick doesn't have leadership qualities. Vince Young's proven to the entire nation that he does. Someone's going to get a gem and be a contender very soon with Vince. I'd love to see Matt Leinart as our qb before remaining stuck with David Carr. The optimal would be to get a couple of very good players plus a couple of draft picks for that top spot but then we still have David Carr. I've watched religiously for Carr's first 3 seasons. I've seen enough. It's going to take a great quarterback coach who's a miracle worker to give David Carr the two main tools he's missing...decision-making and leadership. These are two that are hard taught. The greats already have them.

I admit that I haven't seen VY that much. But, at the beginning of last year, he wasn't very good.
As far as Carr goes, I think he has the physical tools: accuracy, enough arm strength, and a quick enough release.
I don't feel we have had a chance to review the other areas: ability to read D and ability to check off receivers. The OL has been so bad that I don't think we know for sure.
I agree that leadership could be better. He should be the captain and he isn't. But, if the rest is there, then I would stick with him. I jhust wish he knew.

YoungTexanFan
01-14-2006, 10:58 PM
1) Rookie offensive lineman are rarely productive their first two seasons.
2) You can't draft 5 of them.
3) Free agency is the best way to address offensive line problems.
4) Get a new qb who doesn't hold the ball over the 3-4 seconds the average nfl qb has to deliver the football.

I don't care if we end up with one of the best offensive lines in the league. We'll never win a Super Bowl with David Carr. We'll be lucky to ever see the playoffs. He'll never have the decision-making ability necessary to reach that level. You can save this somewhere and hold me to it. He's not a leader.

All of you who think Vince Young's such a bad choice...his mobility and threat to break it all the way (much like Vick) changes the way a defense comes after a qb. They pin their ears back against Carr because they don't even remotely entertain the thought of him being any kind of threat to hurt them that way. Teams won't sell out to the pass rush against him wherever he ends up. In a very short time he's going to be a star...and you can also hold me to this one...he's going to be an above average passer. He's a leader and a great split-second decision maker. A team will follow him. Oh well, let the Texans waste all their draft picks on trying to help David Carr be the same disappointment he'll always be...and then everyone can just keep on moaning and groaning about the Texans.

1. Rookie O-linemen can start in this league, especially on our team. If you think anyone in the top 2 rounds could not outplay any given man on our line, then you are mistaken. If you honestly expect VY to be able to come onto our team, and succede even to an average level or even that of what we expect from DC, you are fooling yourself. VY has lots of upside, but is a project QB...regardless of this physical ability. VY would sit at a minimum of 2 years before he is ready enough to contribute.

2. Nobody is calling for 5 rookie O-linemen. That would be ludacris. Most are proposing a FA pick up, along with 2 rookie O-linemen.

3. When was the last time you saw a young, stud LT in FA?? Bently is rare, and Hutchision is a cap casuality. Who else is out there? Who else would you suggest to bring in Victor?

4. When has Carr held the ball 3-4 seconds? He was on a 3-step drop ONLY, because of our horendous line. He got 1.5 seconds each time. That is barely enough time for the defender to get into his man. He was still sacked at a record pace. So, even if an average QB has 3-4 seconds, that is still at least double what Carr has, and that is not even including hurries, knockdowns, and pocket collapse in those precious 1.5 seconds.


Carr is very mobile actually. He always is at the top of the league in rushing by a QB. Yes, this can indeed be attributed to him being flushed out of the pocket due to our porus offensive line. Carr is fast for a QB and very good on his feet. He is willing to dive instead of slide for the first down.