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Dime
01-13-2006, 11:00 PM
We need to address the O-line. How many times do we need to say it. Carr has been screaming for one, and he had another huge year of sacks.

NO BUSH!
NO YOUNG!
NO Lienhart!

We need more picks and less cap holding players. We are already cap heavy for average players.

TexansTrueFan
01-13-2006, 11:06 PM
We need to address the O-line. How many times do we need to say it. Carr has been screaming for one, and he had another huge year of sacks.

NO BUSH!
NO YOUNG!
NO Lienhart!

We need more picks and less cap holding players. We are already cap heavy for average players.


i 100% agree with you, we have D. Davis, D. Carr, now we need guys up front to make them 2 stars better.

Ryan
01-13-2006, 11:07 PM
We need to address the O-line. How many times do we need to say it. Carr has been screaming for one, and he had another huge year of sacks.

NO BUSH!
NO YOUNG!
NO Lienhart!

We need more picks and less cap holding players. We are already cap heavy for average players.

Who is this Lienhart you speak of? Anyways, you can address the o-line and get bush or young or this Lienhart guy. You can get a top 5 offensive lineman in the 2nd round.

FILO_girl
01-13-2006, 11:10 PM
We need to address the O-line. How many times do we need to say it. Carr has been screaming for one, and he had another huge year of sacks.

NO BUSH!
NO YOUNG!
NO Lienhart!

We need more picks and less cap holding players. We are already cap heavy for average players.

I have been in agreement with this philosophy. But we are drowned out by the Prospect of the Week buzz. We are the minority. :)

Goldeagle
01-13-2006, 11:10 PM
Amen... Kubiak does not need a "STAR" running back who did not show up in the game of his life. We dont need to draft a glorified Punt returner or Eric Metcalf with our first pick. Kubiak turns average Running backs into stars

If we are not going to take advantage of the O-line talent in this draft then might as well Draft Young; He is faster and more athletic than Carr.

TexanSam
01-13-2006, 11:10 PM
It seems that many of you all think that the draft is our only option to improve this team. There are 2 months of free agency between the Super Bowl and the draft. We can sign a good offensive lineman. We can find a good defensive end. The draft isn't the only way to rebuild a team.

TexansTrueFan
01-13-2006, 11:11 PM
Who is this Lienhart you speak of? Anyways, you can address the o-line and get bush or young or this Lienhart guy. You can get a top 5 offensive lineman in the 2nd round.


and u think 1 OL guy is gonna fix all our problems we need atleast 2 MAYBE IF POSSIBLE 3. Pitts is good and well thats about it..........

Dime
01-13-2006, 11:16 PM
I have been in agreement with this philosophy. But we are drowned out by the Prospect of the Week buzz. We are the minority. :)

I am just getting tired of people who talk Bush and Young like they are already on the team when EVERYONE in the league knows what are NEEDS are. Our NEEDS are NOT QB or RB! We need many positions, and the first on the list is Online needs. Others deal will Defense from DT/DE for replacements to ILB. Many others, but not RB or QB.

TexansTrueFan
01-13-2006, 11:19 PM
It seems that many of you all think that the draft is our only option to improve this team. There are 2 months of free agency between the Super Bowl and the draft. We can sign a good offensive lineman. We can find a good defensive end. The draft isn't the only way to rebuild a team.


i wouldnt say we're rebuilding our team just making improvments and adjustments.

Dime
01-13-2006, 11:20 PM
It seems that many of you all think that the draft is our only option to improve this team. There are 2 months of free agency between the Super Bowl and the draft. We can sign a good offensive lineman. We can find a good defensive end. The draft isn't the only way to rebuild a team.

Less you forget that many teams need additional good O-line personel. The only reason a good o-lineman ends up in FA is because he cost to much or to free cap. We already are not having cap issues, but have over-paid several positions where we can run into cap trouble real quick if we arent not paying attention, and cant afford to many of those FA O-line.

TexansTrueFan
01-13-2006, 11:22 PM
Less you forget that many teams need additional good O-line personel. The only reason a good o-lineman ends up in FA is because he cost to much or to free cap. We already are not having cap issues, but have over-paid several positions where we can run into cap trouble real quick if we arent not paying attention, and cant afford to many of those FA O-line.


true look at pace last season.

Dime
01-13-2006, 11:23 PM
and u think 1 OL guy is gonna fix all our problems we need atleast 2 MAYBE IF POSSIBLE 3. Pitts is good and well thats about it..........

Your right... we need at least 2-3 O-line Min.

Hervoyel
01-13-2006, 11:23 PM
Trade down is definitely an option. I would not come unglued if the Texans traded down. I personally wouldn't do it if I was making the call but that's just me. I'd take Bush in the first.

Just a question Dime. How many members of the offensive line would you replace this offseason? I don't need a big scenario or anything, I just want a number. 2? 3? Just asking.

Hervoyel
01-13-2006, 11:27 PM
Sorry, I didn't see that you had already said we need 2-3 linemen. I didn't look down the thread that far. Nevermind.

Dime
01-13-2006, 11:29 PM
Trade down is definitely an option. I would not come unglued if the Texans traded down. I personally wouldn't do it if I was making the call but that's just me. I'd take Bush in the first.

Just a question Dime. How many members of the offensive line would you replace this offseason? I don't need a big scenario or anything, I just want a number. 2? 3? Just asking.

I feel we need quite a bit of new personnel in there. I want at least 3-4 new online from FA and draft in there to compete with what we currently have. I would hope 2 or 3 might be able to out-perform what we have right now. I know of gel-time for the O-line, but I feel we really need a LT bad. Pitts does ok, but I would rather have Pitts inside. Also, I want those online to give 'hope' to Carr on protecting his backside. Mental games have to be horrible for Carr to manage the field and have it in the back of his mind that he has a colander for a oline.

TexansTrueFan
01-13-2006, 11:34 PM
drew H, seemed to do ok at center when he was playing in his 2 games, cause mckinney just dont cut it, pitts i mean the best we got right now, lets trade our #1 get some extra picks and try to get enough talent where carr dont have to run for his life every play.

edo783
01-13-2006, 11:52 PM
We need to address the O-line. How many times do we need to say it. Carr has been screaming for one, and he had another huge year of sacks.

NO BUSH!
NO YOUNG!
NO Lienhart!

We need more picks and less cap holding players. We are already cap heavy for average players.

I agree fully. As you have stated EVERYONE knows what the problems are, but look at the posts here. Lots of folks using all sort of rationalizations to NOT do what is needed. It's a bit like the fat kid in front of the dessert counter. He knows it's not the RIGHT thing, but OH, how he WANTS to have that big chunk of cake and takes it. Instant satisfaction and long term self recrimination about doing it and not doing what was needing to be done.

michaelm
01-13-2006, 11:52 PM
Amen... Kubiak does not need a "STAR" running back who did not show up in the game of his life.


Denver's system is also succesful without any star OL...
Only one guy drafted above the 4th round starts for them. One of them was undrafted and signed with Denver as a free agent, and he's the starting LT.

Dime
01-14-2006, 12:01 AM
Denver's system is also succesful without any star OL...
Only one guy drafted above the 4th round starts for them. One of them was undrafted and signed with Denver as a free agent, and he's the starting LT.

Then it is to bad we dont have thier GM because we need to make draft / FA choices of Oline. And ya know it.

Big B Texan Fan
01-14-2006, 12:02 AM
I am just getting tired of people who talk Bush and Young like they are already on the team when EVERYONE in the league knows what are NEEDS are. Our NEEDS are NOT QB or RB! We need many positions, and the first on the list is Online needs. Others deal will Defense from DT/DE for replacements to ILB. Many others, but not RB or QB.
You do not address a NEED with a #1 overall pick. It's BPA on your war room board.

TexansTrueFan
01-14-2006, 12:09 AM
You do not address a NEED with a #1 overall pick. It's BPA on your war room board.


maybe if you have a decent team without issues, but we got O(L)NE major issue buddy.

Napa Auto Parts
01-14-2006, 12:16 AM
the Thing about wanting to draft and O-line all of you say Kubiak is a magician and he is gonna fix all our offensive problems i dont remember the last time denver drafted and O-line in the 1st round. it just dumb how some people contradict their own post. hell lets not take the best player with the most upside V.Young we have carr so what if he has failed so far personally i wouldnt mind the trade down but Vince is special and im going to hate it when i see him lead a team other than the texans to a super bowl.:twocents:

TexansTrueFan
01-14-2006, 12:18 AM
the Thing about wanting to draft and O-line all of you say Kubiak is a magician and he is gonna fix all our offensive problems i dont remember the last time denver drafted and O-line in the 1st round. it just dumb how some people contradict their own post. hell lets not take the best player with the most upside V.Young we have carr so what if he has failed so far personally i wouldnt mind the trade down but Vince is special and im going to hate it when i see him lead a team other than the texans to a super bowl.:twocents:


ok i'm sorry you think he can come in and make all our OL suddenly pro bowlers ??? :tv: have u seen these guys play ?

Dime
01-14-2006, 12:21 AM
the Thing about wanting to draft and O-line all of you say Kubiak is a magician and he is gonna fix all our offensive problems i dont remember the last time denver drafted and O-line in the 1st round. it just dumb how some people contradict their own post. hell lets not take the best player with the most upside V.Young we have carr so what if he has failed so far personally i wouldnt mind the trade down but Vince is special and im going to hate it when i see him lead a team other than the texans to a super bowl.:twocents:

I dont care if a team that he or bush happens to make it to the superbowl. They probably have a NEED at rb or qb. We dont. We have a many needs and we need to address those! Period. I would love to have Young or Bush, seriously... but we cant right now. We have to much else we need. Oh... and just because Denver has had luck with O-line, doesnt not me we are in that position.

Napa Auto Parts
01-14-2006, 12:21 AM
ok i'm sorry you think he can come in and make all our OL suddenly pro bowlers ??? :tv: have u seen these guys play ?



Yes and i ask when was the last time they wasted a 1st rounder on and O-line Player?

Dime
01-14-2006, 12:22 AM
You do not address a NEED with a #1 overall pick. It's BPA on your war room board.

Dude... you need to think about that.. you dont need to address a 'need' until later rounds.. I dont agree at all with you.

TexansTrueFan
01-14-2006, 12:25 AM
hmm 1843, hell i dunno so u saying they could of made victor riley a good OL player ? ok well lets just see if they do what ur suggesting ? i gurantee u casserly/mcnair wont allow that.

Napa Auto Parts
01-14-2006, 12:28 AM
hmm 1843, hell i dunno so u saying they could of made victor riley a good OL player ? ok well lets just see if they do what ur suggesting ? i gurantee u casserly/mcnair wont allow that.



No im suggesting they could made Victor Riley a Pro Bowler:drool:

TexansTrueFan
01-14-2006, 12:33 AM
No im suggesting they could made Victor Riley a Pro Bowler:drool:


ok whatever u think its cool. :confused: even though that ones kinda out there.

Dime
01-14-2006, 12:33 AM
Yes and i ask when was the last time they wasted a 1st rounder on and O-line Player?

If I can get a 1st round next year, a additional 2nd and 3rd this year for a top 10 trade down pick. Then we can fulfill those NEEDS with those extra picks..

TexansTrueFan
01-14-2006, 12:36 AM
If I can get a 1st round next year, a additional 2nd and 3rd this year for a top 10 trade down pick. Then we can fulfill those NEEDS with those extra picks..


thank u that was my whole point :redtowel:

Big B Texan Fan
01-14-2006, 12:36 AM
Dude... you need to think about that.. you dont need to address a 'need' until later rounds.. I dont agree at all with you.
THAT'S WHAT I SAID, DID YOU EVEN READ MY POST.

IT SAID BPA WITH #1 PICK, NEEDS LATER BASICALLY.

TexansTrueFan
01-14-2006, 12:37 AM
THAT'S WHAT I SAID, DID YOU EVEN READ MY POST.

IT SAID BPA WITH #1 PICK, NEEDS LATER BASICALLY.


u misunderstood him "i think"

Dime
01-14-2006, 12:47 AM
THAT'S WHAT I SAID, DID YOU EVEN READ MY POST.

IT SAID BPA WITH #1 PICK, NEEDS LATER BASICALLY.

I think it is you who need to read. We wont have those extra picks without trading down. Trading down means we use our mid - first on a need like DE/ILB/or even Oline! Then we have extra pics for needs too.

TexansTrueFan
01-14-2006, 12:51 AM
lordy lordy lordy :cool: sometimes this board makes me wonder if :pigfly:

Big B Texan Fan
01-14-2006, 12:59 AM
I think it is you who need to read. We wont have those extra picks without trading down. Trading down means we use our mid - first on a need like DE/ILB/or even Oline! Then we have extra pics for needs too.
OK, that makes a little more sense but you did not mention trading down in your response to so i did not catch it.
I don't like trading pix cuz you turn 1 potential bust into many.
And casserly trading expertise for us with day one pix have all nearly blown up in our face or burned holes in his pockets and get used pre-maturely

The raiders rd 2 that we had the season after the crumbled the season after they went to the SB, we burned that one on Hollings.
Moved up to get Babin and gave up way too much to get him. A 2nd, 3rd, 4th, an swapped pix in the 5th with a division rival.
One of the pix we used to get P-Buch was the 3rd rd'r we bamboozled out of the cowboys for henson. Al returnred the favor to Jerry. Probably got a fruit basket out of it.
Let me see what else, oh, the trade down to get TJ and the Saints 3rd rd'r. We'll see on that but don't be surprised if we trade back in the early 2nd rd by giving a team both of those 3rd's. Coud be for a marquee TE that slips.

Sorry to ramble, just don't like CC's trax record with day 1 trades. He's gotten an F so far.

TexansTrueFan
01-14-2006, 01:13 AM
OK, that makes a little more sense but you did not mention trading down in your response to so i did not catch it.
I don't like trading pix cuz you turn 1 potential bust into many.
And casserly trading expertise for us with day one pix have all nearly blown up in our face or burned holes in his pockets and get used pre-maturely

The raiders rd 2 that we had the season after the crumbled the season after they went to the SB, we burned that one on Hollings.
Moved up to get Babin and gave up way too much to get him. A 2nd, 3rd, 4th, an swapped pix in the 5th with a division rival.
One of the pix we used to get P-Buch was the 3rd rd'r we bamboozled out of the cowboys for henson. Al returnred the favor to Jerry. Probably got a fruit basket out of it.
Let me see what else, oh, the trade down to get TJ and the Saints 3rd rd'r. We'll see on that but don't be surprised if we trade back in the early 2nd rd by giving a team both of those 3rd's. Coud be for a marquee TE that slips.

Sorry to ramble, just don't like CC's trax record with day 1 trades. He's gotten an F so far.


no its more like if you roll 6 dice you have a better chance on having more land on 5 than if you roll 2 dice. Good Metaphor huh :yahoo:

Texans_Chick
01-14-2006, 01:17 AM
We need to address the O-line. How many times do we need to say it. Carr has been screaming for one, and he had another huge year of sacks.

NO BUSH!
NO YOUNG!
NO Lienhart!

We need more picks and less cap holding players. We are already cap heavy for average players.


I think everyone agrees that we need to improve the Oline. That is a hard position to gain quality play at in a short time without slowly growing up players in our system and cherry picking key FA. Some thoughts on the trade down thinging to get lots of Olinemen.

1. More picks don't necessarily mean immediate improvement. See e.g.Vinny's link discussing the Ricky Williams blockbuster trade and what little came of it. (http://www.drafthistory.com/articles/article23.html)

2. Rookies make mistakes. A bunch of rookie Olinemen drafted at the same time will have a hard time developing.

3. Fortunately this draft is deep in Olinemen. We can use some other picks to help.

4. I would be more interested in players versus just picks. We have difficulties attracting FA without overpaying.

5. As a side issue on this, fans in the stand = more wins. Home field loudness matters. If the public isn't convinced we didn't get enough value for the 1st pick, ticket brokers will be selling their tickets again next season at half price.

6. Our team still needs more playmakers. It is my belief that none of the Olinemen in this draft are top 10 kinda guys.

7. If we trade down, I think maybe the best thing we get outta of a trade would not be a lineman, but rather some more defensive help. Our experienced guys have been kinda dinged, I don't know how Wong is gonna come back after his knee stuff, and we are thin thin thin on the defense--lots of player playing hard, but not as many playmakers as you would like. I think TJ will continue to develop, but we need to grow some more defensive playmakers--hard to get in FA.


Ultimately, there is a lot of time between now and the draft. A lot of hype and a lot of evaluation to do. There are various free agents that may be available. So basically, we don't need to make a decision on anything in January, before we have a coach, an offensive and defensive scheme and all that.

(Though the Carr bonus situation does sorta complicate things sooner v. later).

dml923
01-14-2006, 01:30 AM
i would agree on trading down but could they pass up on players with a high possiblity on being hall of famers. as well as if we dont pick up one of them then our D would have trouble becasue of the chance one goes to the titans and probally would destroy our D. Also the texans need fan support. However the texans have no need for young, leinhart and bush so trading down for some more picks would be the better descision.

Grid
01-14-2006, 01:36 AM
We need to address the O-line. How many times do we need to say it. Carr has been screaming for one, and he had another huge year of sacks.

NO BUSH!
NO YOUNG!
NO Lienhart!

We need more picks and less cap holding players. We are already cap heavy for average players.


I know it is tempting to just focus on that Oline and bring in 5-6 rookies..overload the Oline with players and make sure we come out of this offseason with an improved Oline. But I really dont think that is the best move we can make at this point.

We dont need to take more than a couple Olinemen on the first day. It just isnt necessary. With ONE good FA selection we will have 3 spots on our Oline taken care of... maybe more. Dbrickshaw is no more a "sure thing" than Justice or McNeil or Scott.. and we can pretty much guarantee that one of the top OTs will slide to the second. Even if they didnt though.. Tackle isnt our greatest need. Pitts at LT is a good fit..he is talented.. we need interior olinemen more than tackles..and good interior linemen can be had in the 2-5th rounds.

If we DID trade down.. I would be looking for us to use our first pick(s) on defense..not offense.. because we can get that tackle or top guard at the #33 pick.

so really... I think we are fine not trading down, getting ourselves a top prospect.. and filling needs in the middle rounds.

aj.
01-14-2006, 07:25 AM
Denver's system is also succesful without any star OL...
Only one guy drafted above the 4th round starts for them. One of them was undrafted and signed with Denver as a free agent, and he's the starting LT.

Thank you. I was scrolling through this thing and wondering when someone was going to point out the fact that the Denver offensive scheme will make some of these guys better. Or should I say, it will put them in position to be better players.

I'm not saying that Fred Weary or Seth Wand will be going to the pro bowl any time soon, but I see a lot of offensive line assessments being made by many fans in the context of the legacy scheme.

It's not going to look anything like what we've been seeing, even with the same personnel. I've been ranting for two years about how if you drop Tom Moore in here, all of a sudden our line isn't so bad after all. The same holds true for Denver's attack. Although there are limits to my argument ....like Todd Wade having to take more than one step in any direction other than forward....(good thing our GM tied him up with that $10 million dollar signing bonus and that multi-million dollar contract through '09). Guess that was Capers fault.... but I digresssss

Denver runs that inside outside zone stuff with a lot of bootleg play action. Defenses just can't rush to a point five yards behind the line of scrimmage against that scheme like they can against an archaic and unimaginitive offensive attack like the Texans used to run.

There's also a lot of talk in this thread about trading down and picking up several more draft picks. The Texans already have eight picks and there's this thing called the rookie pool that you can't exceed for purposes of the salary cap, plus the fact that you can only prorate new contracts 4 years now since there's no CBA extension. This means that rookie contracts have to be loaded up more and more in their second year because their first year base salaries are set and you can't prorate bonus out five or six years any more. Meaning, if you load up on low first rounders and second or even third rounders you can get yourself in a pickle pretty quickly salary cap wise by taking on too many of these higher round rookie contracts.

Spoda
01-14-2006, 07:51 AM
wait this thread is ridiculous!! the fact that we already have a decent QB and HB are not important...taking a tweener scat back or even better a QB from the houston area is what is most important..i mean this message board hasn't waivered a bit...bush bush bush bush bush bush..oh wait then there was the rose bowl...VY VY VY VY VY VY VY!!! too bad theres not another bowl game, or better yet too bad lienhart isn't from katy or something..then whatever would we do?




trade the pick!! it is the most valuable pick maybe ever!!!!!

Grid
01-14-2006, 08:18 AM
I direct you to the post by aj. above yours.. and then you may find it enlightening to read the plethora of explainations on why we do need Bush.

Id point you towards some explainations of why we need Young.. but i havent found any that are very compelling as of yet.

Kaiser Toro
01-14-2006, 09:19 AM
There's also a lot of talk in this thread about trading down and picking up several more draft picks. The Texans already have eight picks and there's this thing called the rookie pool that you can't exceed for purposes of the salary cap, plus the fact that you can only prorate new contracts 4 years now since there's no CBA extension. This means that rookie contracts have to be loaded up more and more in their second year because their first year base salaries are set and you can't prorate bonus out five or six years any more. Meaning, if you load up on low first rounders and second or even third rounders you can get yourself in a pickle pretty quickly salary cap wise by taking on too many of these higher round rookie contracts.

I did not know that. Very interesting and very important tidbit when trading down for more picks is being considered.

Tulip
01-14-2006, 11:01 AM
Trade down is NEVER the only option, because trade offers are the one thing a team can't control.

Tulip
01-14-2006, 11:04 AM
Great post, a.j. Thanks for the information on the rookie pool, too.

HJam72
01-14-2006, 11:05 AM
I wouldn't say that it's the only option, but I do think it should be heavily explored and considered. It would be really interesting to see exactly what offers they will (can) get.

chall8
01-14-2006, 11:52 AM
Agreed. Although I'm not sold on Carr and I'd love to see Vince in a Texan's uniform, the team just has so many needs that go beyond QB. And drafting a RB isn't going to help us much either.

We need to focus on OL, defense, and also pick up a TE.

Would love to swing a deal that gets AJ Hawk and Michael Huff. Then pick up a TE in 2nd round.

Dime
01-14-2006, 12:49 PM
OK, that makes a little more sense but you did not mention trading down in your response to so i did not catch it.
I don't like trading pix cuz you turn 1 potential bust into many.
And casserly trading expertise for us with day one pix have all nearly blown up in our face or burned holes in his pockets and get used pre-maturely

The raiders rd 2 that we had the season after the crumbled the season after they went to the SB, we burned that one on Hollings.
Moved up to get Babin and gave up way too much to get him. A 2nd, 3rd, 4th, an swapped pix in the 5th with a division rival.
One of the pix we used to get P-Buch was the 3rd rd'r we bamboozled out of the cowboys for henson. Al returnred the favor to Jerry. Probably got a fruit basket out of it.
Let me see what else, oh, the trade down to get TJ and the Saints 3rd rd'r. We'll see on that but don't be surprised if we trade back in the early 2nd rd by giving a team both of those 3rd's. Coud be for a marquee TE that slips.

Sorry to ramble, just don't like CC's trax record with day 1 trades. He's gotten an F so far.

I see what your saying. If you trade down, you get more choices (less chance of having them all being bust) however and if the people are busts, you have less costing people cap wise.

beerlover
01-14-2006, 01:03 PM
Despite a still lingering hangover from trading up for Babin, I would be OPEN to the possiblity of TRADING UP not trading down, specificly if we picked Vince Young with that 1st pick I would really go after Jonathan Scott his tackle from UT. in this new up and coming Kubes scheme I see the need for one more tackle to line-up with Pitts to wall-off the corners letting the inside blocking scheme rotate amongst the guards & Center.

I don't see Scott lasting past the Cowboys pick & just like last year I fear they are gonna draft my guy before the Texans could :brickwall

Bobo
01-14-2006, 01:11 PM
We need to address the O-line. How many times do we need to say it. Carr has been screaming for one, and he had another huge year of sacks.

NO BUSH!
NO YOUNG!
NO Lienhart!

We need more picks and less cap holding players. We are already cap heavy for average players.

You are 100 percent correct. Unfortunately, there are no indications that the brain trust within this franchise have the gray matter to comprehend this. Also, there is no indication that any other clubs will accommodate us by giving us fair market value for that pick. Thirdly, the defense needs just as much help as the OL does. That means this team is in one heckuva pickle right now.

Dime
01-14-2006, 01:12 PM
I know it is tempting to just focus on that Oline and bring in 5-6 rookies..overload the Oline with players and make sure we come out of this offseason with an improved Oline. But I really dont think that is the best move we can make at this point.

We dont need to take more than a couple Olinemen on the first day. It just isnt necessary. With ONE good FA selection we will have 3 spots on our Oline taken care of... maybe more. Dbrickshaw is no more a "sure thing" than Justice or McNeil or Scott.. and we can pretty much guarantee that one of the top OTs will slide to the second. Even if they didnt though.. Tackle isnt our greatest need. Pitts at LT is a good fit..he is talented.. we need interior olinemen more than tackles..and good interior linemen can be had in the 2-5th rounds.

If we DID trade down.. I would be looking for us to use our first pick(s) on defense..not offense.. because we can get that tackle or top guard at the #33 pick.

so really... I think we are fine not trading down, getting ourselves a top prospect.. and filling needs in the middle rounds.

I am ok if our first pick is defense as long as it is filling a needed position. Let me put it this way. (love using analagies). If I have a car made up of different parts of a cars. Why would I want to upgrade my 2006 Mustang engine (RB) with a 2006 Corvette engine (RB), when what I really need to is upgrade my 1972 Voltswagon Drive Shaft (DE/DL), 2000 Jaguer Axle (ILB - Jags are expensive but mechanically horrible) with Goodyear tires (OLB), 1995 Yugo Transmission(Oline).

Dime
01-14-2006, 01:16 PM
Thank you. I was scrolling through this thing and wondering when someone was going to point out the fact that the Denver offensive scheme will make some of these guys better. Or should I say, it will put them in position to be better players.

I'm not saying that Fred Weary or Seth Wand will be going to the pro bowl any time soon, but I see a lot of offensive line assessments being made by many fans in the context of the legacy scheme.

It's not going to look anything like what we've been seeing, even with the same personnel. I've been ranting for two years about how if you drop Tom Moore in here, all of a sudden our line isn't so bad after all. The same holds true for Denver's attack. Although there are limits to my argument ....like Todd Wade having to take more than one step in any direction other than forward....(good thing our GM tied him up with that $10 million dollar signing bonus and that multi-million dollar contract through '09). Guess that was Capers fault.... but I digresssss

Denver runs that inside outside zone stuff with a lot of bootleg play action. Defenses just can't rush to a point five yards behind the line of scrimmage against that scheme like they can against an archaic and unimaginitive offensive attack like the Texans used to run.

There's also a lot of talk in this thread about trading down and picking up several more draft picks. The Texans already have eight picks and there's this thing called the rookie pool that you can't exceed for purposes of the salary cap, plus the fact that you can only prorate new contracts 4 years now since there's no CBA extension. This means that rookie contracts have to be loaded up more and more in their second year because their first year base salaries are set and you can't prorate bonus out five or six years any more. Meaning, if you load up on low first rounders and second or even third rounders you can get yourself in a pickle pretty quickly salary cap wise by taking on too many of these higher round rookie contracts.

Denver is NOT this team... Why are you even comparing us to Denver. We are the Texans.. you are on the wrong board. Also, If you have a top rookie, in your rookie pool, your talking a huge 30-60 million contact. If I have 8 for the rookie pool, and how many 5-7 rounders normally make the team? Not many at all.

Grid
01-14-2006, 01:19 PM
you been sleeping for the last few weeks Dime?

we are hiring Kubiak.. he is probably bringing the Broncos OL coach with him. No..we arent Denver.. but our offense will probably look like theirs soon.

Dime
01-14-2006, 01:25 PM
you been sleeping for the last few weeks Dime?

we are hiring Kubiak.. he is probably bringing the Broncos OL coach with him. No..we arent Denver.. but our offense will probably look like theirs soon.

Until he is in Houston, I dont take anything that the media says for granted. My heart still goes out for those miners families. In addition, your saying he is probably bringing a O-line coach with him. We dont know that either. While guessing what our line is going to look like in the future, that does not impact what it looks like now. Now, it needs better talent.

12Gage
01-14-2006, 01:26 PM
Ok, for those of you that insist on a trade down (I'm not against it), what do we trade for? Be specific with teams and picks.

cadahnic
01-14-2006, 01:30 PM
Grid you are correct we will look similar to Denver, with more medium to deep passes. Shanahan is more of the pound running guy that Kubiak is. Kubiak will run more, but he likes to stretch the defense and test secondaries. Dennison is an offensive guy and has learned a good deal from Alex Gibbs, but they will hire an OL coach if Dennison is to be the offensive coordinator which I doubt. Grid why are people giving you grief about posting you have a post on most of mine, Coach C., Morknolle, Texans Chick and Jerek's posts. They must think it weird that you only posts on meaty post.

Grid
01-14-2006, 01:30 PM
well we can either debate under the assumption that we will have Kubiak and Dennison.. or we can not speak about it at all. Anything else is pointless.

Right now all signs point to Kubiak.. and in that situation..i find it kind of stupid to act as though our line will require the same kind of talent we have been targeting the last few seasons.. when if Kubiak comes in it will most likely change.

SESupergenius
01-14-2006, 01:30 PM
I'm pretty sure a new CBA will be enacted this season, it's in the best interest for everyone. That being said, the fact still stands, these high draft pick salaries are mounting up. The theory is to get bettert than average players for the price of one potential great one. If we get a 2nd or 3rd round offensive lineman in a year that is supposed to be stronger on offensive linemen then I see no reason to not take that route. Add to that that we could also shore up the CB and ILB spots in this same draft will allow me as a fan to breath easy that it will only take 1 year to right this ship, not 2 or 3.

Grid
01-14-2006, 01:35 PM
Grid you are correct we will look similar to Denver, with more medium to deep passes. Shanahan is more of the pound running guy that Kubiak is. Kubiak will run more, but he likes to stretch the defense and test secondaries. Dennison is an offensive guy and has learned a good deal from Alex Gibbs, but they will hire an OL coach if Dennison is to be the offensive coordinator which I doubt. Grid why are people giving you grief about posting you have a post on most of mine, Coach C., Morknolle, Texans Chick and Jerek's posts. They must think it weird that you only posts on meaty post.

Well from what ive heard.. Kubiak runs the Denver offense. Shannahan approves everything but Kubiak is the guy that lays it all out. And whether Dennison is OC or OL coach.. im betting that both him and Kubiak will have a big say in the makeup, and training that our OL receives. It is too big of an issue to just put it in the OL coach's hands and forget about it.

Kubiak is a hands on guy as well. Despite being the OC in Denver, Kubiak is the guy that works with Plummer and he is responsible for his success. Im hoping he will take the same approach with Carr.

As for why people are giving me grief.. I think some people dont agree with my opinion on things and view my silence during the season as a sign that I am a "fairweather fan" :ok:

:yahoo:

Dime
01-14-2006, 01:35 PM
well we can either debate under the assumption that we will have Kubiak and Dennison.. or we can not speak about it at all. Anything else is pointless.

Right now all signs point to Kubiak.. and in that situation..i find it kind of stupid to act as though our line will require the same kind of talent we have been targeting the last few seasons.. when if Kubiak comes in it will most likely change.

Based on what you said, and lets say they are coming to Texas, who do you feel on the o-line right now will be retained and can move to the new system? I can see Drew and Pitts... who else.

HardKnockTexan
01-14-2006, 01:38 PM
I'm all for trading down if the price is right. Bush, Young and Leinart are very hot commodities in this years draft and it will take a kings randsom for a team to take that pick from us.

Letting the bidding start at 1st and 3rd this year and 1st and 2nd next.

Grid
01-14-2006, 01:41 PM
I see Wiegert staying.. And I wouldnt be surprised to see McKinney restructure and stay.

Other than that im not sure. Wand I think could stay as an RT.. if he shows that he can handle the position. Wade will stay because of cap reasons..but I see him gone once it is affordable to do so. Washington, Weary, and Brown I see gone.. but then I dont know if the new staff will find some talent there once they reevaluate. Weary fits the mould, Brown not so much. Washington, I think, will most definatly be gone unless we fail to sign any depth at Center.

bigTEXan8
01-14-2006, 02:02 PM
I see Wiegert staying.. And I wouldnt be surprised to see McKinney restructure and stay.

Other than that im not sure. Wand I think could stay as an RT.. if he shows that he can handle the position. Wade will stay because of cap reasons..but I see him gone once it is affordable to do so. Washington, Weary, and Brown I see gone.. but then I dont know if the new staff will find some talent there once they reevaluate. Weary fits the mould, Brown not so much. Washington, I think, will most definatly be gone unless we fail to sign any depth at Center.

I too think Wiegert could return. I wouldn't shed a tear though if McKinney got the boot.

edo783
01-14-2006, 03:06 PM
I wouldn't shed a tear though if McKinney got the boot.

I undestand that sentiment about him playing center, because he STINKS there. However, he is an above average LG and as it's his last year on his contract, so I see him sticking. Also kind of fits the Denver lineman mold. Having said all that, I suspect he ISN'T a very good locker room guy. Seems awfully full of him self and a know it all. May get tossed because of that as new coach won't want someone else trying to drive the bus.

The Preacher
01-14-2006, 03:44 PM
33 San Francisco Baas, David C 6-4 319 Michigan
2 34 Cleveland Pool, Brodney FS 6-2 208 Oklahoma
3 35 Philadelphia (from Miami) Brown, Reggie WR 6-1 197 Georgia
4 36 Tampa Bay Ruud, Barrett ILB 6-1 242 Nebraska
5 37 Detroit (from Tennessee) Cody, Shaun DT 6-4 292 Southern California
6 38 Oakland Routt, Stanford CB 6-0 191 Houston
7 39 Chicago Bradley, Mark WR 6-1 201 Oklahoma
8 40 New Orleans (from Washington) Bullocks, Josh FS 6-0 207 Nebraska
9 41 Tennessee (from Detroit) Roos, Michael OT 6-7 320 Eastern Washington
10 42 Dallas Burnett, Kevin OLB 6-3 237 Tennessee
11 43 N.Y. Giants Webster, Corey CB 6-0 204 Louisiana State
12 44 Arizona Arrington, J.J. RB 5-9 214 California
13 45 Seattle (from Carolina) Tatupu, Lofa ILB 5-11 226 Southern California
14 46 Miami (from Kansas City) Roth, Matt DE 6-3 272 Iowa
15 47 N.Y. Jets (from Houston through Oakland) Nugent, Mike K 5-10 182 Ohio State
16 48 Cincinnati Thurman, Odell ILB 6-1 237 Georgia
17 49 Minnesota Johnson, Marcus OT 6-6 321 Mississippi
18 50 St. Louis Bartell, Ronald CB 6-1 208 Howard
19 51 Green Bay (from New Orleans) Collins, Nick FS 5-11 206 Bethune-Coookman
20 52 Jacksonville Barnes, Khalif OT 6-6 305 Washington
21 53 Baltimore Cody, Dan DE 6-4 270 Oklahoma
22 54 Carolina (from Seattle) Shelton, Eric RB 6-1 246 Louisville
23 55 Buffalo Parrish, Roscoe WR 5-10 168 Miami (Fla.)
24 56 Denver Williams, Darrent CB 5-8 188 Oklahoma State
25 57 N.Y. Jets Miller, Justin CB 5-10 202 Clemson
26 58 Green Bay Murphy, Terrence WR 6-1 202 Texas A&M
27 59 Atlanta Babineaux, Jonathan DT 6-2 281 Iowa
28 60 Indianapolis Hayden, Kelvin CB 5-10 198 Illinois
29 61 San Diego Jackson, Vincent WR 6-5 241 Northern Colorado
30 62 Pittsburgh McFadden, Bryant CB 5-11 190 Florida State
31 63 Philadelphia McCoy, Matt OLB 6-0 234 San Diego State
32 64 Baltimore (from New England) Terry, Adam OT 6-8 330 Syracuse

Player Pos. Ht. Wt. School
1 65 San Francisco Gore, Frank RB 5-9 217 Miami (Fla.)
2 66 St. Louis (from Miami) Atogwe, Oshiomogho FS 5-11 203 Stanford
3 67 Cleveland Frye, Charlie QB 6-4 217 Akron
4 68 Tennessee Roby, Courtney WR 6-0 189 Indiana
5 69 Oakland Walter, Andrew QB 6-5 234 Arizona State
6 70 Miami (from Chicago) Crowder, Channing ILB 6-2 247 Florida
7 71 Tampa Bay Smith, Alex TE 6-4 258 Stanford
8 72 Detroit Wilson, Stanley CB 5-11 189 Stanford
9 73 Houston (from Dallas) Morency, Vernand RB 5-9 212 Oklahoma State
10 74 N.Y. Giants Tuck, Justin DE 6-5 256 Notre Dame
11 75 Arizona Green, Eric CB 5-11 197 Virginia Tech
12 76 Denver (from Washington) Paymah, Karl CB 6-0 204 Washington State
13 77 Philadelphia (from Kansas City) Moats, Ryan RB 5-8 210 Louisiana Tech
14 78 Oakland (from Houston) Morrison, Kirk ILB 6-1 238 San Diego State
15 79 Carolina Mathis, Evan G 6-5 304 Alabama
16 80 Minnesota Fox, Dustin CB 5-11 190 Ohio State
17 81 St. Louis Incognito, Richie C 6-3 305 Nebraska
18 82 New Orleans Fincher, Alfred ILB 6-1 241 Connecticut
19 83 Cincinnati Henry, Chris WR 6-4 197 West Virginia
20 84 New England (from Baltimore) Hobbs, Ellis CB 5-9 188 Iowa State
21 85 Seattle Greene, David QB 6-3 231 Georgia
22 86 Buffalo Everett, Kevin TE 6-5 241 Miami (Fla.)
23 87 Jacksonville Starks, Scott CB 5-8 172 Wisconsin
24 88 N.Y. Jets Pouha, Sione DT 6-3 329 Utah
25 89 Carolina (from Green Bay) Ellison, Atiyyah DT 6-4 303 Missouri
Denver (Forfeited)
27 90 Atlanta Beck, Jordan ILB 6-2 231 California State Polytechnic
28 91 Tampa Bay (from San Diego) Colmer, Chris OT 6-5 310 North Carolina State
29 92 Indianapolis Burns, Vincent DE 6-0 267 Kentucky
30 93 Pittsburgh Essex, Trai OT 6-4 324 Northwestern
31 94 San Francisco (from Philadelphia) Snyder, Adam G 6-5 316 Oregon
32 95 Arizona (from New England) Blackstock, Darryl OLB 6-4 241 Virginia
33 96 Tennessee (Compensatory Selection) Jones, Brandon WR 6-1 208 Oklahoma
34 97 Denver (Compensatory Selection) Foxworth, Domonique CB 5-11 178 Maryland
35 98 Seattle (Compensatory Selection) Hill, Leroy OLB 6-1 224 Clemson
36 99 Kansas City (Compensatory Selection) Colquitt, Dustin P 6-2 211 Tennessee
37 100 New England (Compensatory Selection) Kaczur, Nick G 6-4 319 Toledo
38 101 Denver (Compensatory Selection) Clarett, Maurice RB 6-0 234 Ohio State


I hate to throw so much in here but to prove a point you have to see what we passed up last year by trading away our draft picks for PB. How much would you like to have had Thurman, Roos, or Tatupa with that 2nd and Crowder, Tuck, or Kaczur in the 3rd. There are some other really good players in there and some will be all-pros. I'm sure several will be busts too. This year's draft is even deeper than last year's with several juniors coming out to add to the depth. The quality of talent that will be available in the 2nd and third is staggering. With possibly five picks in the top 70 in addition to a top ten pick in a trade down scenario, we could hit on just 60% and land three studs in addition to D'brick. If we really drafted well it could be even rosier. The time has come to build depth instead of trade it away or get a new sportscar and if we pick Reggie and hope to not flop on that 2nd round lineman(not to mention the defense needs a little help), I personally think that the Texans will be set back indefinitely. You're talking no line again because even with Ferguson and a FA acquisition there will be growing pains. At worst though at least you'll have the foundation in place with more help defensively. I know you can't look back and say woulda, coulda, shoulda but the opportunity to FINALLY get pass protecion and solid depth is here. To me it's not even a question of whether, it's who is willing to give us what and then let's get it done.

bigTEXan8
01-14-2006, 04:27 PM
I undestand that sentiment about him playing center, because he STINKS there. However, he is an above average LG and as it's his last year on his contract, so I see him sticking. Also kind of fits the Denver lineman mold. Having said all that, I suspect he ISN'T a very good locker room guy. Seems awfully full of him self and a know it all. May get tossed because of that as new coach won't want someone else trying to drive the bus.

That's true, I forgot he played LG. By the way, how's his neck injury?

edo783
01-14-2006, 07:30 PM
That's true, I forgot he played LG. By the way, how's his neck injury?

Haven't really heard one way or the other.

Wolf
01-14-2006, 07:40 PM
I am thinking we need to go ugly. watching the Seattle game a light clicked with me about when we played them and they blew us out on national TV.. I don't think Bush could help us holding an opponent under 40 points

Mr. White
01-15-2006, 02:15 AM
I'm with you, Wolf. The defense REALLY needs to be rebuilt since the heart and soul (Sharper, Glenn) was gutted and lost it's identity.

Wolf
01-15-2006, 11:30 AM
I'm with you, Wolf. The defense REALLY needs to be rebuilt since the heart and soul (Sharper, Glenn) was gutted and lost it's identity.


yeah and I got sold on the "we'll be faster and have some youth" ..yet we never saw a Caper's style defense in 4 years..

diappointing

bigTEXan8
01-15-2006, 12:00 PM
yeah and I got sold on the "we'll be faster and have some youth" ..yet we never saw a Caper's style defense in 4 years..

diappointing

I'd rather re-vamp our D than re-vamp our offense. I think we have the talent on offense in most positions to be sucessful. I think that with Kubiak's scheme, we'll be better than we were in 2004. Now, unless some D guru wants a challenge, we need to get some key position players to fill the incredible gaps that made us the worst rush D ever. Still makes me queasy. So Wolf, I'm with you. I'd rather see our D beefed up rather than our O.

TheOgre
01-15-2006, 12:18 PM
Personally I'd love to trade our pick with the Jets, get their 2006 and 2007 1st's, and John Abraham or L. Coles. Then draft:

1st AJ Hawk
2nd Jonathan Scott
two 3rd's - get a TE and safety

...BUT lets be realistic. The average fan doesn't follow the team as well as we do. Joe Schmo doesn't want the offensive or defensive lineman. He will want the flashy player, like Bush or Young. It isn't necessarily best for the success of the team, but it is the marketing move to make. Just realize our 1st round selection is likely going to be one of these guys. With that in mind, I guess we need to look at the rest of the draft.

Dime
01-15-2006, 12:40 PM
Personally I'd love to trade our pick with the Jets, get their 2006 and 2007 1st's, and John Abraham or L. Coles. Then draft:

1st AJ Hawk
2nd Jonathan Scott
two 3rd's - get a TE and safety

...BUT lets be realistic. The average fan doesn't follow the team as well as we do. Joe Schmo doesn't want the offensive or defensive lineman. He will want the flashy player, like Bush or Young. It isn't necessarily best for the success of the team, but it is the marketing move to make. Just realize our 1st round selection is likely going to be one of these guys. With that in mind, I guess we need to look at the rest of the draft.

Personally, I like the idea of trading down and picking up a defense player like Hawk. Just so that we are filling NEED positions, and not ones already our strong points

Wolf
01-15-2006, 12:52 PM
A trade with the Jets could possibly hurt the Titans (who would have a shot at Bush then )

The Titans haven't said they're interested in trading Volek. There's the unsettled contract situation for quarterback Steve McNair to consider, among other things.

But one has to think a trade is being considered, especially since the Titans have the No. 3 draft pick and top-flight quarterbacks Matt Leinart and Vince Young are in the mix.

"Historically we have not granted permission for anybody to shop themselves,'' Reese said. "That doesn't mean that we wouldn't do it, but historically we have not.''

Rosenhaus, who stirred things up during training camp last year when he said he wanted Volek to be traded, is much more tight-lipped now.

"I'm not going to say much about Billy's situation,'' he said.

The Titans and Rosenhaus have discussed a long-term deal for center Justin Hartwig, who's scheduled to become an unrestricted free agent in March.



http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060114/SPORTS01/601140350/1027


I doubt the Titans would trade Volek before the draft though. !st part of the article makes me sick because their 2nd round pick played LT and switched to RT and played the whole season there. And we continued to flip flop our line

Texan Gal 312
01-15-2006, 01:09 PM
Personally I'd love to trade our pick with the Jets, get their 2006 and 2007 1st's, and John Abraham or L. Coles. Then draft:

1st AJ Hawk
2nd Jonathan Scott
two 3rd's - get a TE and safety

...BUT lets be realistic. The average fan doesn't follow the team as well as we do. Joe Schmo doesn't want the offensive or defensive lineman. He will want the flashy player, like Bush or Young. It isn't necessarily best for the success of the team, but it is the marketing move to make. Just realize our 1st round selection is likely going to be one of these guys. With that in mind, I guess we need to look at the rest of the draft.

AMEN !!!!!!!!!!!!! I am with you 100%. I don't know what the cap implications of Abraham are but this would instantly improve our pitiful defense. Hawk could be another Urlacher. Offense is flashy but defense gets you to the playoffs. Denver would have never won the game yesterday wtihout outstanding defense.

Hottoddie
01-15-2006, 02:38 PM
Personally I'd love to trade our pick with the Jets, get their 2006 and 2007 1st's, and John Abraham or L. Coles. Then draft:

1st AJ Hawk
2nd Jonathan Scott
two 3rd's - get a TE and safety

...BUT lets be realistic. The average fan doesn't follow the team as well as we do. Joe Schmo doesn't want the offensive or defensive lineman. He will want the flashy player, like Bush or Young. It isn't necessarily best for the success of the team, but it is the marketing move to make. Just realize our 1st round selection is likely going to be one of these guys. With that in mind, I guess we need to look at the rest of the draft.

I was going to post a similar idea yesterday, but my computer rebooted itself :mad: & I lost everything I'd put down.

I too, agree that trading down with the Jets could be the best move. As everyone keeps repeating, you have to get an impact player with a high #1 pick. Contrary to some people's opinions, we have a very good QB & a couple of solid RB's. So, those positions are not necessary to replace this year. Let's fill in the other holes first & upgrade existing positions starting next year.

Our need areas are OL, an impact LB, TE, DL, & possibly a CB. Although, I believe that either P-Buc will step up & get his head in the game, or McKenzie will surprise everyone & take the CB job away from him.

With OL, it usually takes a year before they are legitimate contributors. That, imo, is why most OL are taken in the later rounds. I've been in the take D'Brick corner all along (although, Young has me reconsidering), but I'm beginning to believe that A.J.Hawk or Mario Williams would have a more immediate impact on our team. That's why I believe trading down to the #4-5 pick range would be the better move.

That's why I'd like to see us trade down to the Jet's pick (#4) & pick up their 2nd, or 3rd, round pick this year, & their #1 pick next year. That'd put us in position to trade up next year & have a shot at Adrian Peterson. Peterson is bigger & stronger than Bush. He can run between the tackles & has the speed of Bush to get around the corner. Imo, Bush hasn't shown enough ability to run between the tackles, & in this league, if you can't run between the tackles, you won't be too successful. Don't get me wrong, Bush is most likely going to have a very good career, but he makes me think more of a Marshall Faulk type of back. Unfortunately, I don't believe that Faulk could carry a team, even when he was at his best.

Assuming the Jets would make a deal with us, & I'm willing to bet they would, I could see our draft going something like this:

1) A.J.Hawk(OLB) or Mario Williams(DE)
2a) Max Jean-Gilles(OG/OT) or Daryn Colledge(OT)
2b) Joel Klopfenstein(TE) or Charles Gordon(CB)
3a) Claude Wroten(DT), Davin Joseph(OG), Mike Degory(C), or Justin London(ILB)
3b) Justin London(ILB), Mark Setterstrom(OG), Tatusi Lutui(OG), or Steve Fifita(DT)

If I'm able to get the defensive people I have listed as my first choice in the 3rd round, then I'll be looking to pick up a second OL with my 4th round pick like Will Allen(OG). I might consider Hank Basket in the 3rd round. He's not very fast, but he's got hands of glue & he's huge (6'4" 220lbs.). He might not be able to stretch the field, but he gives Carr a huge target that'll be easy to spot.

AstroTexan
01-15-2006, 07:12 PM
I was looking at the top of the draft and came to the conclusion that we can do something like this. We trade with them where they will take Bush, then by the time the 4 pick comes around the main 3 are gone and we can safely take D'Bricksaw Ferguson. In the trade with the Jets we can also pick up an O linemen, D linemen or TE. Here we get personel we need and dont put that much more pressure on the cap.
Any thoughts on this?

TMac48
01-15-2006, 07:20 PM
I could see us trading them the first overall and getting maybe their 1st and maybe Doug Jolley. I think he had kind of a let down year, but I would be willing to take a shot on him.

MorKnolle
01-15-2006, 08:00 PM
I could see us trading them the first overall and getting maybe their 1st and maybe Doug Jolley. I think he had kind of a let down year, but I would be willing to take a shot on him.

Trade down to #4 and only pick up Doug Jolley? That is a horrible plan. We can/should get a whole lot more than that.

DRAMA
01-15-2006, 08:31 PM
I could see us trading them the first overall and getting maybe their 1st and maybe Doug Jolley. I think he had kind of a let down year, but I would be willing to take a shot on him.


uhh.................

GoBlue
01-15-2006, 09:00 PM
I was going to post a similar idea yesterday, but my computer rebooted itself :mad: & I lost everything I'd put down.

I too, agree that trading down with the Jets could be the best move. As everyone keeps repeating, you have to get an impact player with a high #1 pick. Contrary to some people's opinions, we have a very good QB & a couple of solid RB's. So, those positions are not necessary to replace this year. Let's fill in the other holes first & upgrade existing positions starting next year.

Our need areas are OL, an impact LB, TE, DL, & possibly a CB. Although, I believe that either P-Buc will step up & get his head in the game, or McKenzie will surprise everyone & take the CB job away from him.

With OL, it usually takes a year before they are legitimate contributors. That, imo, is why most OL are taken in the later rounds. I've been in the take D'Brick corner all along (although, Young has me reconsidering), but I'm beginning to believe that A.J.Hawk or Mario Williams would have a more immediate impact on our team. That's why I believe trading down to the #4-5 pick range would be the better move.

That's why I'd like to see us trade down to the Jet's pick (#4) & pick up their 2nd, or 3rd, round pick this year, & their #1 pick next year. That'd put us in position to trade up next year & have a shot at Adrian Peterson. Peterson is bigger & stronger than Bush. He can run between the tackles & has the speed of Bush to get around the corner. Imo, Bush hasn't shown enough ability to run between the tackles, & in this league, if you can't run between the tackles, you won't be too successful. Don't get me wrong, Bush is most likely going to have a very good career, but he makes me think more of a Marshall Faulk type of back. Unfortunately, I don't believe that Faulk could carry a team, even when he was at his best.

Assuming the Jets would make a deal with us, & I'm willing to bet they would, I could see our draft going something like this:

1) A.J.Hawk(OLB) or Mario Williams(DE)
2a) Max Jean-Gilles(OG/OT) or Daryn Colledge(OT)
2b) Joel Klopfenstein(TE) or Charles Gordon(CB)
3a) Claude Wroten(DT), Davin Joseph(OG), Mike Degory(C), or Justin London(ILB)
3b) Justin London(ILB), Mark Setterstrom(OG), Tatusi Lutui(OG), or Steve Fifita(DT)

If I'm able to get the defensive people I have listed as my first choice in the 3rd round, then I'll be looking to pick up a second OL with my 4th round pick like Will Allen(OG). I might consider Hank Basket in the 3rd round. He's not very fast, but he's got hands of glue & he's huge (6'4" 220lbs.). He might not be able to stretch the field, but he gives Carr a huge target that'll be easy to spot.
I'm liking your picks. Think how much depth and quality players we would be adding in one year. AJ Hawk is as fast as any MLB i've seen in a long time and if he can hunt down VY and contain him, he should be OK against most NFL QB's. And no, I'm not trying to imply VY will be faster and more elusive than most other NFL QB's. TRADE DOWN!!

GrandPa
01-15-2006, 10:09 PM
Not drafting Reggie Bush would be like Portland drafting Sam Bowie instead of Michael Jordan because they needed a center...

I would rather draft a player that well could be the most amazing player drafted in the last 5 years than to rebuild the OL or defense...

I would rather they try to go for the "gold" than draft 3 "bronze" players...

There are Free Agents and other draft rounds to build the OL and Defense...

If they pass up a possible superstar for some very good other players, they will make a big mistake...

Go for the homerun not a few singles...

A lot of you people are thinking small...

Dime
01-15-2006, 10:15 PM
Not drafting Reggie Bush would be like Portland drafting Sam Bowie instead of Michael Jordan because they needed a center...

I would rather draft a player that well could be the most amazing player drafted in the last 5 years than to rebuild the OL or defense...

I would rather they try to go for the "gold" than draft 3 "bronze" players...

There are Free Agents and other draft rounds to build the OL and Defense...

If they pass up a possible superstar for some very good other players, they will make a big mistake...

Go for the homerun not a few singles...

A lot of you people are thinking small...

No... we are thinking wise. You are thinking small. 3 great players for a possible awesome player with a huge capload, and might even be a flop when it comes to the NFL. You need to think about what we NEED, more then 'it would be cool to have'.

ThaShark316
01-15-2006, 10:20 PM
I see where Dime is coming from...but it's just not gonna happen. I wouldn't mind whatever we do, but I can't see trading down happening.

Runner
01-15-2006, 10:21 PM
I would rather they try to go for the "gold" than draft 3 "bronze" players...



Unless the gold turns out to be brass. It is very dangerous to only evaluate "upside" of any player. The "downside" and potential risk should be weighed carefully. The shiny object isn't always the best one.

Big B Texan Fan
01-15-2006, 10:32 PM
No... we are thinking wise. You are thinking small. 3 great players for a possible awesome player with a huge capload, and might even be a flop when it comes to the NFL. You need to think about what we NEED, more then 'it would be cool to have'.
No Dime, twist another one and read

His thinking on Hit the Homerun as oppossed to singles, I don't like but I think his mind is in the right place.
High drft pix require drafting the Best Player Available. Not stock pile need with a trade. Maybe in last years weak draft but not this one. Take the stud cuz he be a great player for us which in turn would then make it cool for us.

You see (everybody read this)
Carr needs all the right players around him to be better
Young will make all the players around him better
Maybe the same can be said for Bush but I want VY. Irregardless neither will be a bust. And no sense in trading away quite possibly one of the best players the game will ever see in a while cuz he may be a bust. If thats the case then whos to say that the 3 to 4 marginal you get won't be bust either. I'd rather have 1 bust instead of 3 or 4 busts.

AstroTexan
01-15-2006, 10:56 PM
You see (everybody read this)
Carr needs all the right players around him to be better
Young will make all the players around him better
Maybe the same can be said for Bush but I want VY. Irregardless neither will be a bust. And no sense in trading away quite possibly one of the best players the game will ever see in a while cuz he may be a bust. If thats the case then whos to say that the 3 to 4 marginal you get won't be bust either. I'd rather have 1 bust instead of 3 or 4 busts.

That is just short thinking. It is like telling someone not to diversify their portfolio in the stock market. If you get 4 players and 1 busts you still have 3 that are making the entire team better, if you have 1 and he busts, guess what its a bust for the team, not only is the team not getting better, it is getting worse because this one player is putting a ton of pressure on the cap so he is stuck there, and we are not getting any help in any other area.
For the other option to fail in the same sense, you need all 3 or 4 players to be a bust.
While I am completely in favor of trading the pick away, it is still too early to make a decision on that. Over the next 2 months, we have to see what will become available through free agency and what type of cap effects those players will play.
As for an OLineman not being productive until there second+ year, there are exceptions such as Orlando Pace, Bryant McKinney, and the tackle from Iowa last year. D'Brickshaw Ferguson seems to have the ability to be one of those players and help a team in his first year, especially with the texans offensive line having such a simple blocking scheme.
A trade to the Jets for possibly Jolley and there first and second round pick this year and next years first round pick is a great opportunity if the Jets would give up that much; because as we know the Jets are in need of a playmaker. Moreover, depending on the Chad Pennington recovery there need for Reggie Bush may not be as much as there need for a Qb such as Matt Leinart or Jay Cutler (VY will not fit their system as well). With this said, asking for something such as Jolley (who they spent their 1st rnd pick last year on) and this years picks no. 4 and no. 34 as well as next yrs 1st rnd is probably too much. The Jets trade would be favorable to the Texans, however a trade with New Orleans or trading down to about 7 through 10 is more likely where they can pick up Jay Cutler as Leinart will be gone by then.
That is with the prediction that the draft goes as follows (1-3 varying)
BUSH
LEINART
YOUNG
HAWK
FERGUSON
MARIO WILLIAMS

Big B Texan Fan
01-15-2006, 11:10 PM
That is just short thinking. It is like telling someone not to diversify their portfolio in the stock market. If you get 4 players and 1 busts you still have 3 that are making the entire team better, if you have 1 and he busts, guess what its a bust for the team, not only is the team not getting better, it is getting worse because this one player is putting a ton of pressure on the cap so he is stuck there, and we are not getting any help in any other area.
For the other option to fail in the same sense, you need all 3 or 4 players to be a bust.
While I am completely in favor of trading the pick away, it is still too early to make a decision on that. Over the next 2 months, we have to see what will become available through free agency and what type of cap effects those players will play.
As for an OLineman not being productive until there second+ year, there are exceptions such as Orlando Pace, Bryant McKinney, and the tackle from Iowa last year. D'Brickshaw Ferguson seems to have the ability to be one of those players and help a team in his first year, especially with the texans offensive line having such a simple blocking scheme.
A trade to the Jets for possibly Jolley and there first and second round pick this year and next years first round pick is a great opportunity if the Jets would give up that much; because as we know the Jets are in need of a playmaker. Moreover, depending on the Chad Pennington recovery there need for Reggie Bush may not be as much as there need for a Qb such as Matt Leinart or Jay Cutler (VY will not fit their system as well). With this said, asking for something such as Jolley (who they spent their 1st rnd pick last year on) and this years picks no. 4 and no. 34 as well as next yrs 1st rnd is probably too much. The Jets trade would be favorable to the Texans, however a trade with New Orleans or trading down to about 7 through 10 is more likely where they can pick up Jay Cutler as Leinart will be gone by then.
That is with the prediction that the draft goes as follows (1-3 varying)
BUSH
LEINART
YOUNG
HAWK
FERGUSON
MARIO WILLIAMS
Although your post is full of holes and would take me dissecting it all night just to help you repost and make better sense of "what you really meant", I do have one question. How do you know that VY wouldn't fit in the J-E-T-S Jets Jets Jets system. They have or will have a new coach for crying out loud. What are on the staff or something. They would absolutely crap their knickers in NY if they were to take Jay Cutler over VY or lienert, get real.

AstroTexan
01-15-2006, 11:33 PM
Although your post is full of holes and would take me dissecting it all night just to help you repost and make better sense of "what you really meant", I do have one question. How do you know that VY wouldn't fit in the J-E-T-S Jets Jets Jets system. They have or will have a new coach for crying out loud. What are on the staff or something. They would absolutely crap their knickers in NY if they were to take Jay Cutler over VY or lienert, get real.

Ok... You are correct in the fact that if they have the option to draft Vince Young over Cutler they'd have no choice but take Young. It was said that it is likely that they will not be in that situation. If the Jets and Texans do somehow pull of a trade for the No. 1 The Jets would take Bush (likely). If Chad Pennington's recovery is not where they want it to be the Jets would that Matt Leinart. The pick for Jay Cutler would be likely if the Jets decided to trade down to around the 7 pick where Bush, Leinart, and Young would be gone.

As for VY not fitting their system, the Jets current offense [which can possibly be changed when the new head coach (probably Mike Mangini the DC for the Pats) is installed] is one based on the abilty of QB's such as Pennington and his grandfather Vinny Testaverde. The Offense is one of passing from the pocket (similar to the colts) which has an offensive line that does a great job at it (this year is an exception bc of the injuries).

While it seems weird to say, Vince Young is too good of an athlete to play QB for the Jets. Yes, they would love it in NY if they could get him, but Culter and Leinart would better fit the system.

The thought of a change in the system was almost put in effect before Heimerdinger Became the OC. Paul Hackett (the former OC) was interested in drafting Jammal Lord (QB from Nebraska) and to put him on the offense to make the offense more athletic but thought he'd be a better pick up as a free agent and was ultimatly drafted by the Texans, as well as Antwan Randle El for the same reasons.

As for if I am on the staff, no I am a Sports Agent Located in Hoboken, NJ.

Dime
01-16-2006, 01:55 AM
No Dime, twist another one and read

His thinking on Hit the Homerun as oppossed to singles, I don't like but I think his mind is in the right place.
High drft pix require drafting the Best Player Available. Not stock pile need with a trade. Maybe in last years weak draft but not this one. Take the stud cuz he be a great player for us which in turn would then make it cool for us.

You see (everybody read this)
Carr needs all the right players around him to be better
Young will make all the players around him better
Maybe the same can be said for Bush but I want VY. Irregardless neither will be a bust. And no sense in trading away quite possibly one of the best players the game will ever see in a while cuz he may be a bust. If thats the case then whos to say that the 3 to 4 marginal you get won't be bust either. I'd rather have 1 bust instead of 3 or 4 busts.

First off, the chance for all 3 picks to be busts are not very likely, and even if they were, all of them more then likely would be less of a cap hit then a rool of the dice on 1 player. If he is a bust, or even if he is good, just not behind this horrible oline, you have just wasted a huge cap hit player. That means which positions have to suffer on cash since we have invested a truckload in just 1 player. There is reason to trade him. Let me repeat for those who have missed it apparantly.

We dont need a #1 pick because
1. The cap load will be huge since it is a first pick. We wont have cap space for others we need.
2. RB is NOT a position of need.
3. QB is NOT a position of need.
4. Almost all the other positions are needed. (this should be at least 5 points by itself)
5. We have a proven 1k rusher under the current oline, what would he do under a better oline.
6. Number 1 and 2 pick is worth a mint right now, When in vegas, cash in when you get ahead.

I could continue.. but this would be very long.

Big B Texan Fan
01-16-2006, 02:35 AM
Dime-

The cap hit is huge but we were substantially under the cap last year and with the new tv deal the cap is going waaay up. So, we've got room there to burn, even with carrs option bonus money and another #1 pick

We are thin at QB

As far as trading down for need when you have a bad team to begin with, it's not really working out for the chargers so well. First they do the trade with the Reeves led falcons. Wind up still getting LT as well as the 2nd rd'r they aquired in the trade helped them get Brees. Well about 5-6 years later and they have 1 playoff trip to show for it and they regressed from their progress last year and no playoffs. Don't even get me started on the whole ELI dabacle. The Falcons gave up pix to move up but they showed sooner reults. The Lambeau playoff defeat, and 1-2 other playoff seasons.

Bottom line is when you suck as bad we do you do NOT have the Luxary of drafting for needwith your early pix especially your 1st if it's a top 10

Dime
01-16-2006, 02:55 AM
Dime-

The cap hit is huge but we were substantially under the cap last year and with the new tv deal the cap is going waaay up. So, we've got room there to burn, even with carrs option bonus money and another #1 pick

We are thin at QB

As far as trading down for need when you have a bad team to begin with, it's not really working out for the chargers so well. First they do the trade with the Reeves led falcons. Wind up still getting LT as well as the 2nd rd'r they aquired in the trade helped them get Brees. Well about 5-6 years later and they have 1 playoff trip to show for it and they regressed from their progress last year and no playoffs. Don't even get me started on the whole ELI dabacle. The Falcons gave up pix to move up but they showed sooner reults. The Lambeau playoff defeat, and 1-2 other playoff seasons.

Bottom line is when you suck as bad we do you do NOT have the Luxary of drafting for needwith your early pix especially your 1st if it's a top 10

Room to play with? We have NO ROOM on cap to play with. We have to get many positions, not just the 2 people here are only interested in. We dont have the cap even with the increase you all think. I think you will be horrified in april because we are hurting in alot of positions, and we have alot less cap to play with if we are looking to add more talent.

jacquescas
01-16-2006, 03:07 AM
look if you listen to what has been said, that bush will be drafted it doesn't conclude that we will keep him.

i like the idea of the trade down because there will be decent backs on the free agent market and trade market. Shaun Alexander if we want to spend money, Ricky Williams if we wanna bring a UT star, etc.

I trade down a couple spots nets us some extra picks and then i would go LT D'Brikshaw Furgeson or LB AJ Hawk, or DE Mario Williams if the 4-3 is the way we go. (we could move babin to the other DE and have Greenwood move back outside.

with an extra 2nd round pick we can fix our tight end position etc.

But if we are going to take a player with the 1st pick i hope its bush. bush is the sexier pick the swing at the fences. young is a bigger swing but still needs more polish.

Tayton
01-16-2006, 03:43 AM
If I'm not mistaken don't we have 4 of the top 64 picks? Why do we need more than that and who are the additional impact players we will be getting. Yes we need lineman, and yes we need a CB but this team is in desperate need of a playmaker. If we don't have Cap to sign a number one pick after a 2-14 season then Casserly is doing a much worse job than even I thought.

Grid
01-16-2006, 04:03 AM
we had this conversation last week. SO im not going to take part in it this time around. Ill catch the one next week.

in the meantime.. those of you who want to trade down and think that this would just be SUCH a great cap move.. click my sig.

phan1
01-16-2006, 04:03 AM
I agree that if we want to be better quickly, we should trade down. But what about long term? We are absolutely not going to get a player like Bush or Young ever. Yes, we got needs, but why can't that wait? Because we are never going to get a chance to get players like these ever again.

adrianshrev
01-16-2006, 01:22 PM
Ok, for those of you that insist on a trade down (I'm not against it), what do we trade for? Be specific with teams and picks.
we trade down to oakland for there #1,2,4,5 this yr and #1 next yr...we pick hawk or williams in 1st round... we get whitworth and rod wright in secon rd

Hottoddie
01-16-2006, 01:43 PM
we had this conversation last week. SO im not going to take part in it this time around. Ill catch the one next week.

in the meantime.. those of you who want to trade down and think that this would just be SUCH a great cap move.. click my sig.

I read your sig, & that's why I would want a #1 pick next year &, either a 2nd or 3rd round pick this year. The money saved by dropping down from 1 to 4 or 5 should pay for the extra pick this year. Next year's extra #1 pick will be combined to move up & (hopefully) snag Adrian Peterson.

killeentexan
01-16-2006, 02:04 PM
...

killeentexan
01-16-2006, 02:05 PM
I originally posted this in the draft and combine section......

I have been of the opinion for quite awhile that we should trade down and take Brick to anchor our O-Line for the next 10 years or so. With all the differing opinions here, I figured I would do a little research. I looked at the draft starting in 2003 and went back 10 years (don't have enough info on players drafted in 2004 & 2005 to determine success or failure). I looked for skill players drafted in the top 3 vs OT's drafted in the top 10.

There were 19 skill players (QB, RB, WR) drafted in the top 3 in that 10 year span - in other words they were considered "can't miss" prospects. 9 of them can be considered complete busts - Rick Mirer, Garrison Hearst, Heath Schuler, Ki-Jana Carter, Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, Tim Couch, Joey Harrington & Charles Rogers. 3 are good players but have not reached the level expected as a top 3 pick - Drew Bledsoe, Keyshawn Johnson & David Carr. 7 have acheived superstar status or at least have begun living up to the expectations - Carson Palmer, Andre Johnson, Michael Vick, Donovan McNabb, Peyton Manning, Steve McNair & Marshall Faulk. That's 7 out of 19 that have played at the level of a top 3 draft pick. Obviously, drafting a skill player is hit or miss.

On the flip side, looking at the tackles who were selected in the top 10 (I wouldn't want us to drop any lower then 10th) none have been a complete bust, while the list reads like a who's who of all pro/pro bowl tackles. There were 14 tackles selected in the top 10 - Orlando Pace, Jonathen Ogden, Tony Boselli, Willie Anderson, Walter Jones, Jordan Gross, Mike Williams, Bryant McKinnie, Levi Jones, Leonard Davis, Chris Samuels, Kyle Turley, Willie Roaf & Lincoln Kennedy. I have heard in the past that there is a much higher success rate when selecting "big men" with 1st round picks......This info seems to agree with that statement.

Both Reggie Bush and VY have a ton of potential....but then again so did Akili Smith, Ryan Leaf, Ki-Jana Carter, Rick Mirer etc. As bad as those guys were, remember - they were considered can't miss prospects who were going to turn their respective frachises around.

Trade down and take Brick!

Dime
01-16-2006, 05:32 PM
Clap Clap.. good research and good information. I hope everyone reads this.

Big B Texan Fan
01-16-2006, 05:43 PM
I have heard in the past that there is a much higher success rate when selecting "big men" with 1st round picks......This info seems to agree with that statement.

Trade down and take Brick!

D'brick isn't "big men" big. He's a roll of the dice because of his size (less than 300 lbs).
The odds are in his favor but his size isn't gonna help him, could hurt him though.

TheOgre
01-16-2006, 06:07 PM
D'brick isn't "big men" big. He's a roll of the dice because of his size (less than 300 lbs).
The odds are in his favor but his size isn't gonna help him, could hurt him though.

He is a gamble in terms of his run blocking. It is all but a given that he would be a great pass-blocker. With his lighter size and quick feet, I think he would be perfect for Kubiak's scheme though.

ccdude730
01-16-2006, 06:12 PM
if you want big, think auburn. that guy is just mammoth.