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The Kid
01-13-2006, 07:24 PM
I realize that there isn't just one problem with the team, but do you think that David Carr is the major reason for the Texans' lack of success?

I voted no and I hope this thread does not become one where Carr is blamed for everything and Vince Young is deemed the Messiah. I am just putting the poll up to see how many people really believe that Carr is the biggest problem.

HJam72
01-13-2006, 07:26 PM
Here is your answer:

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! :brickwall

Double Barrel
01-13-2006, 07:31 PM
Is David Carr the Problem?

What problem? :um:

2-14 was a team meltdown. There were very few* aspects of the team's performance that can be seen as positive gains. Coaching was bad, defense was bad, offense was bad, special teams was mediocre (only Mathis saved them from being bad, too).

That being said, I don't think it's fair to pin a suck team on one player. Be fair with your critical analysis of any given player, because they most likely deserve it. But trying to speculation that every failure of the 2005 season was the result of one player is over-simplifying the matter and ignoring the reality that this is the worst team in football at the moment.

*"few" is an over-estimation

The Kid
01-13-2006, 07:37 PM
Just for the record I do not think that Carr was the problem, but after reading a lot of the stuff on this board there seemed to be a lot of people who think that getting rid of him would solve all of the Texans problems. Its nice to see that the majority of people still understand that one player didn't lose 14 games this season. I feel that if there is enough support and coaching around him Carr can still be a very good quarterback in the nfl.

vtech9
01-13-2006, 07:51 PM
I realize that there isn't just one problem with the team, but do you think that David Carr is a major reason for the Texans' lack of success?
Is David Carr THE problem?

No...

but...


...he is part of the problem.

Buffi2
01-13-2006, 08:06 PM
Here is your answer:
I, for one, am getting a little tired of these blame everything on Carr threads.:brickwall One more time, one player does not a team make. And again, given a good offensive line, an adequate QB becomes better. I, personally, think Carr can be more than adequate, but that is beside the point. All of the angels and saints couldn't do much better behind the line we had than Carr did. If I'm not mistaken, the defense didn't do real well when we had a QB from Harvard playing against us - so why doesn't anyone blame one or all of them of them for our losing season? It takes a team to win - it takes a team to lose and I'm including coaches here.

Let us attempt to think logically rather than jumping on emotional bandwagons. Carr had to follow the coaches orders and we all know how well they did. Great QB's are not made by playing to not lose by more than 7 by the 4th quarter and pray you can catch up. Look at the Colts for a moment. They play to win in the first quarter and move on from there. That is their game plan. And trying to "hold on to a leading score through the second half" isn't even a consideration. The Colts never stop trying to win even when they are ahead - a concept Capers and co never could manage to grasp.

Carr had no line to speak of and people in various positions kept changing like they were playing musical chairs. You can't expect a winning team if you keep changing positions weekly. Can you imagine playing each game behind players in different positions than they were the week before? I'm surprised the players didn't have nervous breakdowns or TO fits of fury.

I think Carr and the rest of the players should be congratulated for the way they handled this entire god-awful season. I honestly think everyone will be surprised next year - pleasantly surprised. From McNair to the new coaches to the players - all are determined to never have this happen again and are working hard to see that it doesn't. We need to have a little faith and know that they are as unhappy as we are...probably more. This is their career after all.

If Kubiak, etc keep Carr it will be because he thinks they can win with him. The other coaches interviewed think they can win with him. Give the poor man a break and see if he can't be a real QB that remains vertical - which would be a vast improvement.:fans:

edo783
01-13-2006, 08:06 PM
...he is part of the problem.

Of course...as is nearly EVERY player on the team. IMO, the main issues lay with the coaches and they have gotten what they diserved...the door. They crippled nearly every aspect of the team except the ST under Marcianos direction.

mexican_texan
01-13-2006, 08:08 PM
The biggest problem was coaching. After the season, players would basically mock the old coaches by saying that other teams knew exactly what plays the Texans were going to run. Then gary walker said that they were trying to run some of the worst schemes ever and wondered if they were trying to get fired on purpose.

Nighthawk
01-13-2006, 08:37 PM
And again, given a good offensive line, an adequate QB becomes better. I, personally, think Carr can be more than adequate,

I absolutely agree with this statement. One hundred percent accurate & true. The problem is, it's part of the problem, not part of the solution.

tulexan
01-13-2006, 08:55 PM
They crippled nearly every aspect of the team except the ST under Marcianos direction.

Kris Brown had a pretty big meltdown

BradK10
01-13-2006, 08:57 PM
Kris Brown had a pretty big meltdown

okay maybe he meant return teams and coverage teams

TexanSam
01-13-2006, 09:05 PM
We do not need David Carr to be an All-Pro, Hall of Fame quarterback. Look at some of the QB's in the playoffs now. Jake Delhomme, Jake Plummer, Mark Brunell, Rex Grossman. None of them are Hall of Fame QB's. Look at QB's who have led their teams to a Super Bowl. Kerry Collins, Trent Dilfer, Rich Gannon, Brad Johnson. Those aren't superstar quarterbacks either. They all had an all around good team. Vince Young isn't going to change our whole team. Put him on the team we put on the field and he's not going to do much better than Carr. All we need Carr to do is be an average QB. Let him make the throws, let him play the game that he's used to which is take a 5 step drop and let the play unfold. He's not suited for a 2 step drop and a screen play. That wasn't his fault, that was because our O-line couldn't protect and our coaches were terrible. I still believe Carr has the potential to be a VERY good QB but at the very least I do think he can be a QB who can lead this team without the eye popping stats. What we need is a solid team period. We need help on offense and defense. Not quarterback.

aj.
01-13-2006, 09:14 PM
And given a good quarterback, an adequate offensive line becomes better.

I'm going to be drawing freaking social security and we'll still be talking about surrounding Carr with enough talent and getting him the right coaching and this, that, and the other. We could have four pro bowlers on the OL but only if we had five, then maybe Carr could reach his potential. How does my hair look by the way?

The really good QBs make those around him better. After spending 20+ million on the guy in the span of four years, I can't say that Carr has made anyone around him better. I don't believe the OL talent issue is as bad as what everyone thinks. The coaching/scheme issue has been more of a problem.

Shanahan/Kubiak's offense doesn't require a ton of talent on the OL so that will help part of the problem but the reality is, fair or not, that fans will have far less patience with Carr learning the new offense than they would Vince.

Is Carr THE problem? No

Is Carr part of the problem? Yes.

tulexan
01-13-2006, 09:16 PM
The only person who hasn't been part of the problem this season is Jerome Mathis.

thegr8fan
01-13-2006, 09:20 PM
And given a good quarterback, an adequate offensive line becomes better.

I'm going to be drawing freaking social security and we'll still be talking about surrounding Carr with enough talent and getting him the right coaching and this, that, and the other. We could have four pro bowlers on the OL but only if we had five, then maybe Carr could reach his potential. How does my hair look by the way?

The really good QBs make those around him better. After spending 20+ million on the guy in the span of four years, I can't say that Carr has made anyone around him better. I don't believe the OL talent issue is as bad as what everyone thinks. The coaching/scheme issue has been more of a problem.

Shanahan/Kubiak's offense doesn't require a ton of talent on the OL so that will help part of the problem but the reality is, fair or not, that fans will have far less patience with Carr learning the new offense than they would Vince.

Is Carr THE problem? No

Is Carr part of the problem? Yes.
couldn't have said it better myself

I didn't get my impression from reading this board, by the way Hulk75, but from watching Carr stink it up game after game after game. Carr is, on his best day, playing the worst team in the NFL, an AVERAGE NFL starting QB. Too bad we can't play San Fran 16 times a season so Carr potential can really shine.....NOT.

TexansTrueFan
01-13-2006, 09:28 PM
the problem is the patch work offensive line that we have some how did such a bad job of putting together.

edo783
01-13-2006, 11:52 PM
And given a good quarterback, an adequate offensive line becomes better.

Come on AJ, you know that line wasn't even in the realm of adequate. Adequate indicates some where close to average, instead....we had the worst. Quite possibly the worst in NFL history. Hardly what anyone would want.

Hookem Horns
01-14-2006, 12:00 AM
couldn't have said it better myself

I didn't get my impression from reading this board, by the way Hulk75, but from watching Carr stink it up game after game after game. Carr is, on his best day, playing the worst team in the NFL, an AVERAGE NFL starting QB. Too bad we can't play San Fran 16 times a season so Carr potential can really shine.....NOT.

True gr8, you were saying that Carr wasn't going to amount to anything long before many of us realized it, during the 7-9 season. I remember you making those observations at the tailgate especially AFTER the games. I didn't disagree with you back then but I was hoping you were wrong. Looks like you were correct however we are all screwed if those in charge of the team don't realize it in the next 3 months.

TexansTrueFan
01-14-2006, 12:17 AM
True gr8, you were saying that Carr wasn't going to amount to anything long before many of us realized it, during the 7-9 season. I remember you making those observations at the tailgate especially AFTER the games. I didn't disagree with you back then but I was hoping you were wrong. Looks like you were correct however we are all screwed if those in charge of the team don't realize it in the next 3 months.


i guess carr should be able to complete passes while getting slammed to the ground by DL,,,"Gosh Carr whats your problem" :brickwall :rolleyes:

Big B Texan Fan
01-14-2006, 12:22 AM
Look, I wanted Peppers in the 1st draft andwould've ok with banks as the first qb. of course he would've gotten killed pretty early but hey, even the almighty, just give him an o-line, no hair cutting carr missed a substantial amt of season 2 due to injury after a sack by posey at bills.

So I'm gonna say that beside the o-line poor play, they still gave it their all and carr made them look way worse than they really are. He's gunshy, shellshocked, and not a smart decision maker , nor has any pocket prcense when there actually was a pocket. He's got no touch on his short passes and typically overthrows receivers on deep routes as though he's content with throwing a deep ball to loosen up the defense. Also needs a WR to be wide open to throw it before throwing it, just like college. He hasn't developed. True he has had no true leader but he needs to step up and take control and has chosen not to. He doesn't take his guys out, he doesn't invite them over, and he doesn't stay after practice to study more film. These are strong rumors that were floating around early in the season and I've got a friend on the equipment staff that agreed with those statements.

All in all, he just not what they expected, for whatever reason. Can Kubiak fix his probs, the answer is yes, but.......maybe as the denver O Coordinator if Carr were to be released and picked up by them. He needs to go for his own good, he's never gonna get it together for Houston. But maybe some other team cuz he needs a fresh start.

TexansTrueFan
01-14-2006, 12:24 AM
Look, I wanted Peppers in the 1st draft andwould've ok with banks as the first qb. of course he would've gotten killed pretty early but hey, even the almighty, just give him an o-line, no hair cutting carr missed a substantial amt of season 2 due to injury after a sack by posey at bills.

So I'm gonna say that beside the o-line poor play, they still gave it their all and carr made them look way worse than they really are. He's gunshy, shellshocked, and not a smart decision maker , nor has any pocket prcense when there actually was a pocket. He's got no touch on his short passes and typically overthrows receivers on deep routes as though he's content with throwing a deep ball to loosen up the defense. Also needs a WR to be wide open to throw it before throwing it, just like college. He hasn't developed. True he has had no true leader but he needs to step up and take control and has chosen not to. He doesn't take his guys out, he doesn't invite them over, and he doesn't stay after practice to study more film. These are strong rumors that were floating around early in the season and I've got a friend on the equipment staff that agreed with those statements.

All in all, he just not what they expected, for whatever reason. Can Kubiak fix his probs, the answer is yes, but.......maybe as the denver O Coordinator if Carr were to be released and picked up by them. He needs to go for his own good, he's never gonna get it together for Houston. But maybe some other team cuz he needs a fresh start.

well buddy if ya had bombs crahing around u all the time wouldnt u be shell shocked to ???? he's like a door mat for DL

eriadoc
01-14-2006, 01:11 AM
I don't believe the OL talent issue is as bad as what everyone thinks. The coaching/scheme issue has been more of a problem.

Pin it on whatever you want, but this offensive line was the worst in the NFL this year and they have pretty well been at or near the bottom for four years now. Just as this team really was 2-14 this year, this offensive line was horrid. I do agree with you that more talent exists than what the production would indicate, but these guys functioned horridly as a unit. They didn't work well together to switch assignments, pick up stunts or blitzes, and failed to coordinate with TEs or backs for pickup assignments. Philip Buchanon is talented, for example, but production is all anyone measures. This unit's production was terrible.

When David Carr has adequate line play, I'll be more than willing to critically analyze his play and I'll be sporting a 'Fire Carr" avatar if he doesn't produce under those conditions. To this point in his career, he hasn't had adequate line play for any real stretch of time. The best teams are the ones that keep their QB clean.

I believe it was Infantrycak who broke down the pass plays from each game for a few games this year to try and get a handle on where the breakdowns were occurring. In almost every single pass play for those games he broke down, Carr made a decision with the ball in under 3 seconds from the snap of the ball. I say under three seconds because the play clock never went from 00:01 to 00:04, for instance. In reality, many of the plays were two seconds, some less. You watched the games and I'm sure you recorded more than a couple. It's easy enough to go back and watch the line breakdowns that occur, irrespective of what Carr is doing with the football. Go back and watch what Pittsburgh did to us. Tennesse (both games), Seattle, Buffalo, Indy, KC .... Sure, the line got better towards the end of the year. Part of that was Pitts moving back to LT and Riley getting the boot. Part of it was easier opponents. anyway you slice or dice it, the line play this year was far from adequate. I agree with your take about the talent level and I agree that coaching was primarily responsible for the meltdowns. There's no way you can imply that the line play this year was adequate, especially in terms of evaluating QB play - any QB.

I've advocated getting a coaching staff in here that can get this line turned around and THEN evaluate Carr. I don't realistically expect that Kubiak and Co. will turn the line around in one year, but if they can reproduce the line play we saw for the first seven games of 2004, I think that's adequate enough to fairly evaluate Carr.

Big B Texan Fan
01-14-2006, 01:26 AM
I believe it was Infantrycak who broke down the pass plays from each game for a few games this year to try and get a handle on where the breakdowns were occurring. In almost every single pass play for those games he broke down, Carr made a decision with the ball in under 3 seconds from the snap of the ball. I say under three seconds because the play clock never went from 00:01 to 00:04, for instance. In reality, many of the plays were two seconds, some less. You watched the games and I'm sure you recorded more than a couple.
Isn't that what they wanted, Isn't that what they practiced all pre-season.....The quick release, the 3 step drop. He screwed it up and the line gave up on him. Look, he was the one who went into the coaches offices after last season and pitched a fit and said this has to change. IMO, if the Texans beat the browns in the last game of that season that year he is satisfied and never pitches fit for changes and we move on and maybe stay @ 8-8 or improve to 9-7 or 10-6. Well, be careful what you ask for. They tweaked it for him, and he failed them.

And I did record a couple, I think that was what jammed up my DVR and pre-vented me from recording the VY coming out party.

Kaiser Toro
01-14-2006, 07:58 AM
Carr was a 7.8 million Cap hit on the 2005 books against an overall number estimated at 81 million. The second biggest cap hit was Gary Walker at 4.03 million. I would say Carr's contract is a big part of the problem. You can't give the QB more resources without cutting the QB expense.

abbest
01-14-2006, 08:19 AM
Why is there a million excuses for Carr`s failures. My excuse is that Carr`s had no competition at QB. Carr knew if he stunk, who was gonna replace him. Heck, Capers did not not have the BALLS to put Banks or Ragone in where sitting Carr probably would done him some good. I don`t think Kubiak will be so stubborn to keep Carr in if the Texans lose 10 in a row next year. Our Carr is a LEMON and has lost that new car smell. Someone open a window and let the YOUNG shine in.

whiskeyrbl
01-14-2006, 08:28 AM
I remember when Aikman came in ,didnt look to good.Got an OL then got 3 Superbowl Rings.:challenge

Kaiser Toro
01-14-2006, 08:30 AM
I remember when Aikman came in ,didnt look to good.Got an OL then got 3 Superbowl Rings.:challenge

Aikman was not drafted in the salary cap era.:penalty:

infantrycak
01-14-2006, 08:34 AM
Aikman was not drafted in the salary cap era.:penalty:

True, but it is a fair comment on fan expectation/analysis levels. Just because the lemmings in Dallas thought he sucked while the team sucked didn't make it true. There was some pretty harsh criticism of his judgment and leadership skills in the 1st few years. Once the team got built around him, judgment, leadership and performance when it counted the most (the play-offs) became hall marks of his careeer.

We agree I think on the value for the money issue on Carr, but JMO Kubiak's involvement with Plummer looks like handwriting on a proverbial wall to me as to where the team is currently planning to go.

whiskeyrbl
01-14-2006, 08:34 AM
All i'm saying if you can't set your feet to throw,or are constantly running for your football life,how can you be expected to do anything.I dont care if you brought Montana back in his prime with this line,if we could he would be the topic of this discussion.:homer:

Kaiser Toro
01-14-2006, 08:38 AM
All i'm saying if you can't set your feet to throw,or are constantly running for your football life,how can you be expected to do anything.I dont care if you brought Montana back in his prime with this line,if we could he would be the topic of this discussion.:homer:

I have no problem bringing back Montana as he was a 3rd round pick and would not be a significant hit on our cap, therefore we would be able to spend money on an Oline and playmakers.

Kaiser Toro
01-14-2006, 08:43 AM
True, but it is a fair comment on fan expectation/analysis levels. Just because the lemmings in Dallas thought he sucked while the team sucked didn't make it true. There was some pretty harsh criticism of his judgment and leadership skills in the 1st few years. Once the team got built around him, judgment, leadership and performance when it counted the most (the play-offs) became hall marks of his careeer.

We agree I think on the value for the money issue on Carr, but JMO Kubiak's involvement with Plummer looks like handwriting on a proverbial wall to me as to where the team is currently planning to go.

I agree with your take. Please note that Plummer signed a 7 year 40 million dollar deal in February. That is less than 6 per year, not sure how it lays out against the cap. If we extend Carr and he does not pan out, it will get even uglier around here.

whiskeyrbl
01-14-2006, 08:45 AM
OK i'll give you that,all i'm saying is he has not had a chance to prove what he can do.Talking about salary cap hits what about G.walker seems to get hurt every game And superman P. Buchanon(gag).Trade some players for picks or OL.Wand,Weary,Bruener,Bradford,Banks,DD,Moreancy,H ollings,Deloach,Coleman,K.Brown,Polk,G.walker,Buch anon

cadahnic
01-14-2006, 08:47 AM
Kaiser as I look over the new CBA for the NFL and different contracts I see one thing and it is that Carr's contract situation is not a downfall to this team. Our main situation is overvalued/underperforming players like Wade that are hitting the books hard. Take Peyton who have the same salary cap as us, but has several high paid players. Why, because they pay for the perfomers and build through the draft like we were supposedly doing. Look at the cap numbers of certain players ie: Greenwood, McKinney, Weigert, Wade, G. Walker, Payne, Coleman, and Bradford. Subtract half of these guys and salary is not even an issue. Carr is not a problem, he has alot of weaknesses that need to be addressed, but ask almost any personell guy in the NFL and they will tell you Carr right now is an above-average QB on a below-average team. I dare say this generations Archie Manning. Get him a team, you will see the Carr that is worth the price. I do think his contract should be restructured though. If he is our guy restructure his contract so that in two years we know if he is or is not and it does not hurt to cut him, and then in year 3 he should get paid like a star QB in this league. Simple verbage and bonus allocation would get the job done.

Kaiser Toro
01-14-2006, 08:50 AM
OK i'll give you that,all i'm saying is he has not had a chance to prove what he can do.Talking about salary cap hits what about G.walker seems to get hurt every game And superman P. Buchanon(gag).Trade some players for picks or OL.Wand,Weary,Bruener,Bradford,Banks,DD,Moreancy,H ollings,Deloach,Coleman,K.Brown,Polk,G.walker,Buch anon

PBuch is only a 800k hit next year. Walker is a big concern next year at a 5.8 mil hit.

Grid
01-14-2006, 08:50 AM
If we give him the extension.. and things go well next season.. then id look to restructure.

Give Carr one positive year without getting sacked 5 times a game.. maybe even finish 8-8.. and I think he will be more than willing to restructure to make the team even better.

Right now.. if we ask a guy who has taken 200 300lb linemen on the chin for us, to take less money... he will more than likely give us the finger and go sign with someone else.

I know that may not sound like such a bad thing to some folks here.. but from the perspective of someone who thinks he still has potential if he had more help.. id rather not add QB to our list of needs.

Kaiser Toro
01-14-2006, 08:51 AM
Kaiser as I look over the new CBA for the NFL and different contracts I see one thing and it is that Carr's contract situation is not a downfall to this team. Our main situation is overvalued/underperforming players like Wade that are hitting the books hard. Take Peyton who have the same salary cap as us, but has several high paid players. Why, because they pay for the perfomers and build through the draft like we were supposedly doing. Look at the cap numbers of certain players ie: Greenwood, McKinney, Weigert, Wade, G. Walker, Payne, Coleman, and Bradford. Subtract half of these guys and salary is not even an issue. Carr is not a problem, he has alot of weaknesses that need to be addressed, but ask almost any personell guy in the NFL and they will tell you Carr right now is an above-average QB on a below-average team. I dare say this generations Archie Manning. Get him a team, you will see the Carr that is worth the price. I do think his contract should be restructured though. If he is our guy restructure his contract so that in two years we know if he is or is not and it does not hurt to cut him, and then in year 3 he should get paid like a star QB in this league. Simple verbage and bonus allocation would get the job done.

I have been preaching this for over a year and am in total agreement.

infantrycak
01-14-2006, 08:54 AM
I agree with your take. Please note that Plummer signed a 7 year 40 million dollar deal in February. That is less than 6 per year, not sure how it lays out against the cap. If we extend Carr and he does not pan out, it will get even uglier around here.

The one thing I would point out is that is an extension of the 7 year $40.7 mil deal Plummer signed prior to the 2003 season--when after six years (if he hasn't shown us anything after 4 years he doesn't have it right?) he had thrown 90 TD's and 114 INT's, had never thrown for over 60% completions or had over an 80 QB rating. It was a top 5 draft pick kind of money deal at that point. He is cheaper than more recent signings obviously, but Denver took a big risk on a big contract for a "not great" QB when they signed Plummer.

Grid
01-14-2006, 08:54 AM
I agree with alot of that too (except Bradford being a cap problem.. I beleive he is signed for the vet minimum).

I am hoping that we will see alot of these overpaid players gone after next season. With one training camp under the new coaching staff's belt.. I think they will find that alot of these guys can be let go.. and we will start finding cap friendly ways to do so.

cadahnic
01-14-2006, 09:13 AM
Grid, I think bradford is a little over vet minimum, I would also add Hollings to that list.

thunderkyss
01-14-2006, 09:37 AM
We've given him a probowl reciever, and a 1000 yard back, what else can he need to get more wins on the board. Has he had diversity to overcome?? yes. Does he have the best offensive line, the bewt coaching schemes/game plans.. no, but neither do your other stars.

Lucky
01-14-2006, 09:51 AM
The one thing I would point out is that is an extension of the 7 year $40.7 mil deal Plummer signed prior to the 2003 season--
That's true, but it was a back loaded contract the Broncos could have gotten out of in the '05 offseason by not paying a $6 million option bonus. The Broncos did give Plummer the bonus, but in a restructered contract that reduced his cap hit in '05. Jake's cap number starts to rise big time in '06.

Dhanis
01-14-2006, 09:52 AM
I am not sure if Carr is the problem, though I have doubts about his leadership ability. It's so hard to really judge any of our players, given the ineptitude of our coaching last year.

Draft and trade for blazing fast corners...run a zone D every play.
Draft blazing fast WRs...run 9 yard slants every play.
Draft a QB with a cannon..don't let him throw over 10 yards deep.

And whatever you do..do not play to win...just play to not be embarrassed.

Carr deserves another year...but he has to show us significant improvement.

Tulip
01-14-2006, 09:54 AM
OK. I thought about it for a minute, and then voted yes.

The problem with the Texans last season was some mix of coaching and personnel. I went on record saying that it was more coaching than personnel.

Now that the coaching problem has been removed, it's easier to focus on the personnel. And in the group, David absolutely needs to bear the majority of the responsibility. He should have been the leader amongst the players on the team, and he wasn't.

infantrycak
01-14-2006, 10:25 AM
We've given him a probowl reciever, and a 1000 yard back, what else can he need to get more wins on the board. Has he had diversity to overcome?? yes. Does he have the best offensive line, the bewt coaching schemes/game plans.. no, but neither do your other stars.

Really?--interesting assertion. Who are the star QB's whom you speak of who don't have good OL's or good coaching? I guess you could go with Brett Favre--then again, 20 TD's, 29 INT's (NFL high) and a 70.7 passer rating don't really help your argument about stars getting it done anyway.

thunderkyss
01-14-2006, 10:30 AM
Really?--interesting assertion. Who are the star QB's whom you speak of who don't have good OL's or good coaching? I guess you could go with Brett Favre--then again, 20 TD's, 29 INT's (NFL high) and a 70.7 passer rating don't really help your argument about stars getting it done anyway.

I'm talking about the stars on our team. A probowl WR with the same offensive line. A 1000 yard back, with the same offensive line. I understand that run blocking is different than pass blocking, but I still think we should have got better out of our QB.

chall8
01-14-2006, 10:48 AM
No, Carr is definitely not the problem. But I don't think he's the solution either.

bigTEXan8
01-14-2006, 11:55 AM
I think it is litterally impossible to say that Carr is the problem. For four years in his career, this is what has happened:

http://www.miamidolphins.com/images/pressbox/fromthegame/fromthegame7732.jpg

No one on this board knows what we have with this team. I highly doubt anyone here works directly with the Texans' organization. I mean, is it a baseball players fault he doesn't hit the ball if you don't give him a bat? Is it a basketball's players fault he doesn't score if he's the only one from his team on the floor against the other team, who have 5 on the floor? No, so it's blaitently unfair to single one person and say, "Oh it's his fault." I'll refer you to the pic above, x200.

thegr8fan
01-14-2006, 12:51 PM
I believe it was Infantrycak who broke down the pass plays from each game for a few games this year to try and get a handle on where the breakdowns were occurring. In almost every single pass play for those games he broke down, Carr made a decision with the ball in under 3 seconds from the snap of the ball. I say under three seconds because the play clock never went from 00:01 to 00:04, for instance. In reality, many of the plays were two seconds, some less. You watched the games and I'm sure you recorded more than a couple. It's easy enough to go back and watch the line breakdowns that occur, irrespective of what Carr is doing with the football.irrespective of what Carr is doing wtih the football??:ok:

If you read through them you will notice, amazingly, how almost half of the games sacks, or plays that didn't work, infantrycak attributed to Carr himself and his poor playing and decision making, or lack thereof.

Infantrycak did something most of this board refused to do, evaluate the play on an individual level, sometimes both in person and on TV coverage game film. It was a pretty fair evaluation and very knowledgable football wise, and it clearly showed how MANY times the problem was attributed to Carr himself.

Our O-line isn't the best in the NFL. But no self respecting NFL fan could honestly sit there and make me believe that the O-line itself is the entire reason we went 2-14 last year. The are not THAT bad. No O-line in the history of the NFL has ever been that bad by itself.

Carr has played poorly for 4 years now. whats it going to take for some of you to believe that he shares SOME of the blame for this abysmal season? Another 4 years of bad playing first? Evaluate Carr and his individual playing the same way you do any other player, like Matt Stevens, and it becomes quite apparent how poorly Carr plays at the NFL level.

You Carr loving fans can stick your ostrich heads down the 'O-line hole' all you want to, that's your perogative. Me, I will sit there in the stands, watch Carr in live action, see the receivers making their cuts downfield and getting the seperation they are supposed to and Carr STILL STANDING but not even looking at them, time after time after time.

bigTEXan8
01-14-2006, 12:58 PM
I believe it was Infantrycak who broke down the pass plays from each game for a few games this year to try and get a handle on where the breakdowns were occurring. In almost every single pass play for those games he broke down, Carr made a decision with the ball in under 3 seconds from the snap of the ball. I say under three seconds because the play clock never went from 00:01 to 00:04, for instance. In reality, many of the plays were two seconds, some less. You watched the games and I'm sure you recorded more than a couple. It's easy enough to go back and watch the line breakdowns that occur, irrespective of what Carr is doing with the football.irrespective of what Carr is doing wtih the football??:ok:

If you read through them you will notice, amazingly, how almost half of the games sacks, or plays that didn't work, infantrycak attributed to Carr himself and his poor playing and decision making, or lack thereof.

Infantrycak did something most of this board refused to do, evaluate the play on an individual level, sometimes both in person and on TV coverage game film. It was a pretty fair evaluation and very knowledgable football wise, and it clearly showed how MANY times the problem was attributed to Carr himself.

Our O-line isn't the best in the NFL. But no self respecting NFL fan could honestly sit there and make me believe that the O-line itself is the entire reason we went 2-14 last year. The are not THAT bad. No O-line in the history of the NFL has ever been that bad by itself.

Carr has played poorly for 4 years now. whats it going to take for some of you to believe that he shares SOME of the blame for this abysmal season? Another 4 years of bad playing first? Evaluate Carr and his individual playing the same way you do any other player, like Matt Stevens, and it becomes quite apparent how poorly Carr plays at the NFL level.

You Carr loving fans can stick your ostrich heads down the 'O-line hole' all you want to, that's your perogative. Me, I will sit there in the stands, watch Carr in live action, see the receivers making their cuts downfield and getting the seperation they are supposed to and Carr STILL STANDING but not even looking at them, time after time after time.

Oh snap...I was under this silly impression that football was a team sport, not an individual sport. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I now, am in the "I HATE CARR FOR NO REASON" club.

The truth about infantrycak is that he sees what he wants to see. He doesn't want to see that o-line was an embarrasment to football, and JV d-lineman could get past them. Para-palegic WRs could seperate from coverage better than some of our WRs. He also doesn't want to see that our D were wearing skirts. I guess it's easier to blame one person than it is the entire team.

thegr8fan
01-14-2006, 01:14 PM
The truth about infantrycak is that he sees what he wants to see.I usually reserve my Ignor list criteria for TROLLS. I am now seriously thinking of expanding that to include football no-nothings, thank me later for making the list bigTEXan8.

FSUBulldog
01-14-2006, 01:45 PM
I usually reserve my Ignor list criteria for TROLLS. I am now seriously thinking of expanding that to include football no-nothings, thank me later for making the list bigTEXan8.

... to be in the presence of such great football minds. The fact that many of you can't spell only lends credence to your arguments. :confused:

bigTEXan8
01-14-2006, 01:52 PM
I usually reserve my Ignor list criteria for TROLLS. I am now seriously thinking of expanding that to include football no-nothings, thank me later for making the list bigTEXan8.

Hehe...cute. Everyone in the NFL, over half the fans on this message board, and blind people are in this group. I'm still trying to figure out how this is a bad thing? Care to explain?

Vinny
01-14-2006, 01:53 PM
... to be in the presence of such great football minds. The fact that many of you can't spell only lends credence to your arguments. :confused:some of us know each other here....and while I can't spell worth a darn myself, I feel I have some credible football opinion....After reading the posts of Infantrycak & thegr8fan for SEVERAL years and meeting both of them live and in person I'd have to say I may not agree with them all the time, but they have a history of credibility....you have 3 posts so I don't know if you know what you are talking about or not. I'm closing this since it's become a bash the fan thread.

infantrycak
01-15-2006, 06:43 PM
The truth about infantrycak is that he sees what he wants to see. He doesn't want to see that o-line was an embarrasment to football, and JV d-lineman could get past them. Para-palegic WRs could seperate from coverage better than some of our WRs. He also doesn't want to see that our D were wearing skirts. I guess it's easier to blame one person than it is the entire team.

So the play-by-play breakdowns I did were a hack job against Carr and an attempt to make the OL look bad, huh? Sure--so by the way, tell me what way does credibility swirl down the toilet bowl in your world?