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Texans_Chick
01-12-2006, 01:03 PM
Lots of arguments left and right trying to compare Reggie Bush and Vince Young to a lot of different people.

It is my belief that there are not really good comparisons out there because they are such different, spectacular players. People want to do the comparisons because then they can try to project the player's careers.

College stats can't be exactly translated to the NFL, but most all the players came from college so it is just one thing to look at.

I am going to take the stats from another thread and put them in this one. They are the last college year stats of various players whose names have been thrown around as relevant comparisons to VY.

I left out a couple of players people have mentioned because I couldn't easily find their stats. (Steve McNair, Randall Cunningham). Please add them if you find them.

I suggest if you want to talk about the comparisons, not to put them in this thread but rather in this other one and keep this one clean:

Vince Young: Relevant Comparisons (http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=17102)

If you have last college season stats of other players you think are relevant, please add them to this thread.

Also, I suggest doing another thread for Bush, comparing his stats to various people you might think are comparable. I would be interested in seeing that. If you want to volunteer to do that, respond to this thread so that a bunch of folks aren't duplicating work.

Anyway, here are the stats of VY and people he has been compared to and their draft positions etc:

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6’ 5” 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Donovan McNabb (last college season): Drafted 2nd, 6’’2” 240 lbs

2326 passing yards
60.85 completion percentage
281 attempts for 171 completions, 8.3 av yards per attempt
23 passing TDs with 6 INTs
155 rushes for 510 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 8 rushing TDs


Daunte Culpepper (last college season) Drafted 11th, 6’4”. 264 lbs:

3690 passing yards
73.63 completion percentage
402 attempts for 296 completions, 9.2 av yards per attempt
28 passing TDs with 7 INTs
141 rushes for 463 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Against the following opponents:

at Louisiana Tech
Eastern Illinois
at Purdue
at Bowling Green
at Toledo
Northern Illinois
at SW Louisiana
Youngstown St.
at Auburn
Ball St.
New Mexico

There were a lot of questions about his development because of his competition--which partially explains his draft position. IIRC, some people thought that the Vikings were reaching picking a QB in the first round because they already had Jeff George and Randall Cunningham.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo.../12/culpepper/

Mike Vick (last college season), Drafted 1st, 6’0”, 214 lbs

1439 passing yards
54.19 completion percentage
179 attempts for 97 completions, 8.0 av yards per attempt
9 passing TDs with 7 INTs
113 rushes for 636 yards, 5.6 av yards per attempt, 9 rushing TDs

Akili Smith (last college season), Drafted 3rd, 6’3”, 220 lbs

3763 passing yards
57.95 completion percentage
371 attempts for 215 completion , 10.1 av yards per attempt
32 passing TDs with 9 INTs
82 rushes for 184 yards, 2.2 av yards per attempt, 4 rushing TDs

David Carr (last college season-including bowl game), Drafted 1st, 6'3", 220lbs

4830 passing yards
64.5 completion percentage
532 attempts for 343 completions, 9.1 av yards per attempt
46 passing TDs with 9 INTs
93 rushes for 74 yards, .8 av yards per attempt, 5 rushing TDs

Big B Texan Fan
01-12-2006, 01:27 PM
Texan Chick-

That was idea to start this thread. Way to go compiling all those stats. I hope McNair/Reeves/Casserly/Kubiak sees this.

My comparison

Last college season for DD
0 attempts @ pushing QB in endzone to avoid losing

Last college season for Bush
1 attempt (no flag thrown) @ pushing QB in the Endzone to avoid losing

He was a non factor on that drive. On 3rd down, was he even on the field?

Long-Spurs-Texan
01-12-2006, 05:16 PM
GREAT post Texans Chick. That is some eye opening stuff. How many of those QB's led their team to a National Championship while going undefeated? Also, how many led the NCAA's in effeciency? Maybe you could add Steve McNair, Ben Roethlisberger, Jake Plummer, Byron Leftwich, Aaron Brooks, and David Garrard to that list as well.

Jack Bauer
01-12-2006, 05:25 PM
Texan Chick-

That was idea to start this thread. Way to go compiling all those stats. I hope McNair/Reeves/Casserly/Kubiak sees this.

My comparison

Last college season for DD
0 attempts @ pushing QB in endzone to avoid losing

Last college season for Bush
1 attempt (no flag thrown) @ pushing QB in the Endzone to avoid losing

He was a non factor on that drive. On 3rd down, was he even on the field?

This has what to do with QB comparisons? :challenge

gtexan02
01-12-2006, 05:26 PM
Why don't you compare his stats to Kordell Stewart? Seems pretty similar

Stewart had something like 3000 yards passing, 500 yards rushing and similar TDs to Young. He came into the NFL, succeeded for a couple years, then turned into a total bust

run-david-run
01-12-2006, 05:42 PM
Hey, what about DC's stats? something like 4800 yds and 40 TD's, not too shabby..

Big B Texan Fan
01-12-2006, 06:24 PM
This has what to do with QB comparisons? :challenge
I'll just start a new thread then. J/K

thunderkyss
01-12-2006, 06:42 PM
I and many others have been saying Young was more like McNabb and Culpepper than Vick. This kind of backs up that statement. You can't tell me that you wouldn't trade David Carr for McNabb, or Culpepper. You can't tell me we wouldn't have won more games this past year, with Culpepper and McNabb. It's a totally different game, when those two are behind Center. How many ProBowl offensive linemen come out of Philadelphia and Minnesota??

Domanick Davis would be perfect for a Minnesota style offense(the year they went to NFC Championship Game) when Robert Smith looked like a probowler(I don't know if he went that year or not).

You can't use Leftwich for their quarterback styles, Brunnel is more like Vince, than Byron. I like Byron too, but I don't think our team dynamic would change much with Byron on our team. The only time I use Byron as a comparison, is when I get that Rookie QBs don't add to the offense line which is true more than not. McNabb and Culpepper would have made positive impact if they were allowed to start..... of course, this is speculation.


Texans_Chick, thanks for doing this. I didn't really watch either of those two in the college, so I had no idea, but what I envision from Young, is more like Donavan, and McNabb. Throw first, check your reads, then run if you've got to. Offensive line isn't given you time?? Just take off, and that will slow a defense down a lot more than play action passing ever will.

tulexan
01-12-2006, 06:51 PM
That's funny because Daunte Culpepper lost Matt Birk for the season and was not nearly the same player. He was being rushed a lot more and was being pressured and his stats showed it by throwing 6 touchdowns compared to 12 interceptions in the first 7 games.

texan279
01-12-2006, 07:07 PM
Hey, what about DC's stats? something like 4800 yds and 40 TD's, not too shabby..

He threw for 46 TD's, 4839 yards, 62.8 completion percentage, 6th player in NCAA history to throw for over 40 TD's and 4,000 yards, also won 4 awards his senior season including the Johnny Unitas award, was named WAC offensive player of the year, and first team WAC.

thunderkyss
01-12-2006, 07:12 PM
That's funny because Daunte Culpepper lost Matt Birk for the season and was not nearly the same player. He was being rushed a lot more and was being pressured and his stats showed it by throwing 6 touchdowns compared to 12 interceptions in the first 7 games.


So you're saying you wouldn't trade David Carr for Dante??

tulexan
01-12-2006, 07:22 PM
So you're saying you wouldn't trade David Carr for Dante??


I really don't know. I don't know how much of Daunte's success is do to Randy Moss and how much of Carr's failures are do to his line. I'd like a full season where Daunte had no Randy and where Carr had a line to make my decision.

beerlover
01-12-2006, 08:18 PM
I believe that Vince breaks the mold and there is no comp. more a combination of all the best attributes- the leadership of Joe Montana, the pocket strength of Terry Bradshaw, the running ability of Michael Vic, the throwing accuracy on the run of John Elway & someday consecutive Superbowl Championships of a Tom Brady & Troy Aikmen :)

tulexan
01-12-2006, 08:30 PM
And the arm strength of 2005 Chad Pennington

dat_boy_yec
01-12-2006, 11:01 PM
Yeah I would take Carr over Culpepper I mean the guy lost Moss and does horrible. Carr lost AJ for most of the season, but still posted decent #s. Culpepper had the opportunity to do well this year and didn't capitalize on it. Injury aside when Johnson took over they as a team improved. If Carr is out of the game and they put in Banks I almost want to change channels to avoid having my retinas explode from what I have to put them through. Leftwich is out and Garrard put up good #'s and beleive it or not I think if Garrard had been in during the Pats game they would have had a better opportunity. I'm not a die hard Carr fan and if they draft VY, then cool. In my opinion though Carr has proven he has talent, untapped talent, but I believe it's there. Also thunder kiss get off the gas man. McNabb and Culpepper did well, because they had good coaching and talent around them. They can step back and see the pocket crumbling, Carr can't do that. What Carr does is step back and start counting clouds because there is no pocket in his world and after the momentary loss of consciousness after a hit he didn't see coming the only comfort he can take in this world is that the clouds won't fail him.

Tulip
01-12-2006, 11:25 PM
Excellent post. This is the most relevant comparison thread I've seen thus far. Thanks for the info.

Long-Spurs-Texan
01-13-2006, 09:30 AM
And the arm strength of 2005 Chad Pennington

Who are you talking about?

MorKnolle
01-13-2006, 11:12 AM
I believe that Vince breaks the mold and there is no comp. more a combination of all the best attributes- the leadership of Joe Montana, the pocket strength of Terry Bradshaw, the running ability of Michael Vic, the throwing accuracy on the run of John Elway & someday consecutive Superbowl Championships of a Tom Brady & Troy Aikmen :)

Let's not get carried away with the comparisons. I refuse to say he has the leadership of Joe Montana until he wins a couple Super Bowls (I am reluctantly beginning to admit Brady is getting to Montana's elite class here). I don't really know what you mean by pocket strength either, and I'm not real sure how he compares to Terry Bradshaw anyways. Vince does not have quite the same running ability of Vick, his top straight-line speed they may be about equal but Vick is much quicker, and his smaller size makes him more elusive, albeit not quite as strong of a runner as Vince. I don't see him throw on the run very much, maybe I've just missed it but I haven't seen it, and either way I refuse to compare him to a John Elway considering he hasn't played an NFL down yet. Anyways, Vince should be a very good NFL QB, but to bring in all these legendary, hall of fame QBs and compare Vince to the "combination of their best abilities" is a little ridiculous and definitely premature in my mind.

As for the Carr/Culpepper debate, I think Culpepper needs a certain type of offense and a dominant WR, then he can put up amazing #s (like he did in 2004), but otherwise I think he has had a tendency to have very sub-par years (2005 and a couple of his seasons before 2004), not to mention I think he has no leadership and is very weak-minded, in the sense that he gets rattled very easily and allows himself to be taken out of games and sulk when things don't go his way. Carr has taken a lot of knocks in his four years but he has never started crying on the sideline like Culpepper almost has a few times. I think Culpepper maybe has the potential to put up legendary numbers in the right system that Carr might not be able to quite attain (again look at 2004), but Carr overall can fit into a variety of systems better, and I think Carr in Minnesota's 2004 system would have put up fairly comparable numbers.

Texans_Chick
01-13-2006, 08:03 PM
List Re-Do

Anyway, here are the stats of VY and various people he has been compared to and their draft positions etc (many of these comparisons I do not get at all):

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6 5 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Donovan McNabb (last college season): Drafted 2nd, 62 240 lbs

2326 passing yards
60.85 completion percentage
281 attempts for 171 completions, 8.3 av yards per attempt
23 passing TDs with 6 INTs
155 rushes for 510 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 8 rushing TDs


Daunte Culpepper (last college season) Drafted 11th, 64. 264 lbs:

3690 passing yards
73.63 completion percentage
402 attempts for 296 completions, 9.2 av yards per attempt
28 passing TDs with 7 INTs
141 rushes for 463 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Against the following opponents:

at Louisiana Tech
Eastern Illinois
at Purdue
at Bowling Green
at Toledo
Northern Illinois
at SW Louisiana
Youngstown St.
at Auburn
Ball St.
New Mexico

There were a lot of questions about his development because of his competition--which partially explains his draft position. IIRC, some people thought that the Vikings were reaching picking a QB in the first round because they already had Jeff George and Randall Cunningham.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo.../12/culpepper/

Mike Vick (last college season), Drafted 1st, 60, 214 lbs

1439 passing yards
54.19 completion percentage
179 attempts for 97 completions, 8.0 av yards per attempt
9 passing TDs with 7 INTs
113 rushes for 636 yards, 5.6 av yards per attempt, 9 rushing TDs

Akili Smith (last college season), Drafted 3rd, 63, 220 lbs

3763 passing yards
57.95 completion percentage
371 attempts for 215 completion , 10.1 av yards per attempt
32 passing TDs with 9 INTs
82 rushes for 184 yards, 2.2 av yards per attempt, 4 rushing TDs

Ben Roethlisberger (last college season), Drafted 11th, 6'5", 241 lbs

3034 passing yards
64.4 completion percentage
396 attempts for 255 completions, 7.7 av yards per attempt
21 passing TDs with 11 INTs
70 rushes for -77 yards, -1.1 av yards per attempt,

David Carr (last college season-including bowl game), Drafted 1st, 6'3", 220lbs

4830 passing yards
64.5 completion percentage
532 attempts for 343 completions, 9.1 av yards per attempt
46 passing TDs with 9 INTs
93 rushes for 74 yards, .8 av yards per attempt, 5 rushing TDs[/QUOTE]

AustinJB
01-13-2006, 08:16 PM
Stats don't tell the whole story, but it's all you have to go off of until they take a snap in the NFL.

Looks like VY had comparable passing yards, comp.%, etc. to McNabb, Culpepper and BenR. And way better than Vick.

PLUS he has a LOT more rushing yards than everyone, including Vick. I'm so sick of the "He's a run first QB". Looks like he puts up just as many passing yards as the others. People just can't understand that just b/c he runs well doesn't mean he can't pass. He looks for the pass just as much as all of these others do; he just adds an extra weapon by being able to run better than any of them when the pass isn't there.

Trogdor014
01-14-2006, 02:55 AM
And the arm strength of 2005 Chad Pennington

Tulexan, you are kidding yourself if you think that Young lacks arm strength. It is just a common misconception that because he has an unorthodox throwing motion, that he can't throw hard.

He threw numerous passes that went about 55-60 yards in the air this past season, and he made those look effortless. I wouldn't be suprised if he could throw the ball about 75-80 yards.

And, no I'm not a huge VY supporter. I attend UT, but I try to look at him objectively. I think the best situation for us is to draft Bush (much to the dismay of many Texans fans), and it is best for VY if he ends up on the Titans (Though I hate to say that).

Young has many weaknesses (never really played under center, ran "zone read" offense, quirky motion and mechanics, makes some HORRENDOUS decisions), but arm strength is not one of them.

Texan in Japan
01-14-2006, 06:56 AM
Texan Chick - Nice research; I kinda think that VY has no real comparisons. I think he's one-of-a-kind, but that's just me. Potentially, he could revolutionize the QB-position in the NFL.

MorKnolle
01-14-2006, 02:48 PM
I don't see any way that Vince can throw the ball over 55-60 yards, I never saw him throw one that long and his throwing motion would make it very difficult to do that, not to mention most of his passes over 30 yards downfield were generally badly underthrown and he had to rely on his big WRs jumping over the DBs to catch the ball.

TexansCanes
01-14-2006, 03:20 PM
i don't doubt vince has a strong arm but i don't think he can throw the ball 75 yards like that. if you have ever tried you to throw like him you know that it is an all arm throw with no body. another vick comparison, they both lead the country in passer rating (vick in '99, young '05 if he still was)

Trogdor014
01-14-2006, 04:55 PM
TexasCanes,

Young doesn't throw with his short armed motion on deep passes. On his "deep" passes down the field (over about 35-40 yards) he actually follows through with a normal looking release. He only "flips" the ball out there on short and intermediate routes.

(Watch the Kansas and Colorado games if you want to see a few "normal" releases from Young on his deep balls)

Texans_Chick
01-30-2006, 11:03 AM
List Re-Do

Anyway, here are the stats of VY and various people he has been compared to and their draft positions etc (many of these comparisons I do not get at all):

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6 5 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Donovan McNabb (last college season): Drafted 2nd, 62 240 lbs

2326 passing yards
60.85 completion percentage
281 attempts for 171 completions, 8.3 av yards per attempt
23 passing TDs with 6 INTs
155 rushes for 510 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 8 rushing TDs


Daunte Culpepper (last college season) Drafted 11th, 64. 264 lbs:

3690 passing yards
73.63 completion percentage
402 attempts for 296 completions, 9.2 av yards per attempt
28 passing TDs with 7 INTs
141 rushes for 463 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Against the following opponents:

at Louisiana Tech
Eastern Illinois
at Purdue
at Bowling Green
at Toledo
Northern Illinois
at SW Louisiana
Youngstown St.
at Auburn
Ball St.
New Mexico

There were a lot of questions about his development because of his competition--which partially explains his draft position. IIRC, some people thought that the Vikings were reaching picking a QB in the first round because they already had Jeff George and Randall Cunningham.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo.../12/culpepper/

Mike Vick (last college season), Drafted 1st, 60, 214 lbs

1439 passing yards
54.19 completion percentage
179 attempts for 97 completions, 8.0 av yards per attempt
9 passing TDs with 7 INTs
113 rushes for 636 yards, 5.6 av yards per attempt, 9 rushing TDs

Akili Smith (last college season), Drafted 3rd, 63, 220 lbs

3763 passing yards
57.95 completion percentage
371 attempts for 215 completion , 10.1 av yards per attempt
32 passing TDs with 9 INTs
82 rushes for 184 yards, 2.2 av yards per attempt, 4 rushing TDs

Ben Roethlisberger (last college season), Drafted 11th, 6'5", 241 lbs

3034 passing yards
64.4 completion percentage
396 attempts for 255 completions, 7.7 av yards per attempt
21 passing TDs with 11 INTs
70 rushes for -77 yards, -1.1 av yards per attempt,

Alex Smith (last college season), Drafted 1st, 6'4". 212 lbs

2952 passing yards
67.5 completion percentage
317 attempts for 214 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
31 passing TDs with 4 INTs
135 rushes for 631 yards, 4.7 yards per attempt, 10 rushing TDs

David Carr (last college season-including bowl game), Drafted 1st, 6'3", 220lbs

4830 passing yards
64.5 completion percentage
532 attempts for 343 completions, 9.1 av yards per attempt
46 passing TDs with 9 INTs
93 rushes for 74 yards, .8 av yards per attempt, 5 rushing TDs

tulexan
01-30-2006, 11:08 AM
That is great that he had good stats, but look at the supporting cast he had around him compared to these other players. Texas has one of the best recruiting classes every single year and you would be lucky to find a top ten recruiting class in any of those other schools when those players were there.

AustinJB
01-30-2006, 11:31 AM
That is great that he had good stats, but look at the supporting cast he had around him compared to these other players. Texas has one of the best recruiting classes every single year and you would be lucky to find a top ten recruiting class in any of those other schools when those players were there.

Give me a break!:rolleyes: Obviously, you're anti-VY. You'll say anything you can to negate his abilities and what he has done. Until a player plays in the NFL, the only thing fans have to go by to compare them to previous QBs is their stats and the games that we've seen them play in. VY's stats measure up with all the other QBs that people like to compare him to. And I've certainly seen VY do things in games that I've never seen before.

Just b/c he had good players around him, does that take away from what he did? What kind of logic is that? If the Steelers didn't have good players on their team, they would not have made it to the SB.....:homer: The fact is: VY is one of the good players....who cares if he had help?!!

Oh, I guess Bush was the only player on the USC team right? No...wait....I believe that he had a couple of teammates that will be 1st round picks as well. By the name of Leinart & White. Oh....and they were in the same backfield WITH Bush. VY's only teammates that are possible 1st round picks are one OL and S Huff. Your logic is flawed.

I respect the fact that you don't want VY. That's fine. Just use a legitimate reason. :ok:

TheOgre
01-30-2006, 11:49 AM
How does the saying go? "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics"

I cannot wait for draft day. I feel like a kid on Christmas Day. I wonder what gifts the Texans will give us this season.

BTW, when does FA begin, March 1st?

tulexan
01-30-2006, 12:27 PM
Give me a break!:rolleyes: Obviously, you're anti-VY. You'll say anything you can to negate his abilities and what he has done. Until a player plays in the NFL, the only thing fans have to go by to compare them to previous QBs is their stats and the games that we've seen them play in. VY's stats measure up with all the other QBs that people like to compare him to. And I've certainly seen VY do things in games that I've never seen before.

Just b/c he had good players around him, does that take away from what he did? What kind of logic is that? If the Steelers didn't have good players on their team, they would not have made it to the SB.....:homer: The fact is: VY is one of the good players....who cares if he had help?!!

Oh, I guess Bush was the only player on the USC team right? No...wait....I believe that he had a couple of teammates that will be 1st round picks as well. By the name of Leinart & White. Oh....and they were in the same backfield WITH Bush. VY's only teammates that are possible 1st round picks are one OL and S Huff. Your logic is flawed.

I respect the fact that you don't want VY. That's fine. Just use a legitimate reason. :ok:

I realize that he is going to be a great player. I am just saying that just because he put up huge numbers does not mean that he is going to be better than all of the players listed. The team makes a huge difference, and Vince had an unbelievable team. Whether it was his great defense or his great offensive line, you can't say that he had a bad supporting cast around him. If he did, they wouldn't have been in the National Championship game. I am pretty sure that the Texas team will have more than 3 first round picks too. They might not all be picked this year, but there is a lot of talent on that team.

I also understand that Reggie Bush was on a great team too. Which is part of the reason why I believe that his numbers are so impressive. They had several weapons on that team. Two great RBs, two great WRs, and a great QB. The fact that he managed to pile up over 2000 all purpose yards and 17 or 18 touchdowns is very impressive considering that he only had half of the carries.

cadahnic
01-30-2006, 12:35 PM
BTW people VY will be on ESPN NEWS the HOT LIST at 3pmET.

Dr. Toro
01-30-2006, 01:39 PM
For all doubting he can throw a ball 70 yards, watch the highlights from his Army All-America game, he throws one from his own 15 to the opposite 15 after eluding a pass rush. If he did it at 18, I bet he can do it now.

There's a bunch of posts with Vince highlight links, I imagine one of them has it. For those that still doubt, I am sure he had a huge tailwind.

HoustonFrog
01-30-2006, 01:54 PM
For all doubting he can throw a ball 70 yards, watch the highlights from his Army All-America game, he throws one from his own 15 to the opposite 15 after eluding a pass rush. If he did it at 18, I bet he can do it now.

There's a bunch of posts with Vince highlight links, I imagine one of them has it. For those that still doubt, I am sure he had a huge tailwind.

I'm not one for picking VY but this is a great thread. However I'm not sure why his arm strength is actually an issue. Most people I have seen have listed that as a strength and have been talking about it all year. Just because a guy flips the ball out to a receiver one way doesn't mean he uses that same delivery in another. The guy can throw. There is a difference between a release point problem and a strength problem. BTW, Leaf had a cannon and rocks for brains. (Please don't read this as a comparison:) Did Montana have a gun?Did Kosar?Did Brady coming out?Brady was considered average in the arm strength category and yet has improved every year it seems. If anyone has arm strength questions it is Leinart. I've seen that question more with him than anyone.

Dr. Toro
01-30-2006, 02:10 PM
From 2002 Army All-American game recap:

Young proved to be a double-threat at quarterback. The 6-5, 194-pounder rushed for 71 yards on just 10 carries while also connecting on four-of-nine passing attempts for 90 yards. His jet speed and strong arm (throwing one pass 65-yards in the air, only to have a receiver drop the ball) electrified the near capacity crowd and paced the quick-strike West offense which mounted four first-half scoring drives of 1:12 or less.

http://usarmy.scout.com/a.z?s=423&p=3&blipid=12999#2002

Yeah, they have it at 65, but it looked like 70 (he was deep in the pocket). Bottom line, he was a HS senior and 40 pounds lighter and weaker. So he either lost arm strength as he got stronger, gained weight, and got college coaching, or this weak-arm stuff is totally baseless.

cadahnic
01-30-2006, 02:15 PM
I dont think anyone questions how far he can throw the ball. The question is zip on outside passes, placement, and can he get those high jump, whiffle ball deep throws down. That is the only question and if he throws at the combine he will have the opportunity to prove that he can do that.

LBC_Justin
01-30-2006, 02:22 PM
So you're saying you wouldn't trade David Carr for Dante??I wouldn't trade David Carr and Reggie Bush for Dante.

I wouldn't trade David Carr, D'Brick, and a few good draft picks for Dante.

That is exactly what we would be doing by taking a QB(any QB) in this years draft.

cadahnic
01-30-2006, 02:26 PM
I would not trade DCarr for DCulpepper. No way no how, you people think DCarr cant read a defense.

MikeMc
01-30-2006, 02:47 PM
Well, might as well look at Brad Smith!

Passing Stats
YEAR TEAM CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD LNG INT RAT
2002 MIZZ 196 366 53.6 2333 6.4 15 62 6 117.3
2003 MIZZ 211 350 60.3 1977 5.6 11 48 7 114.1
2004 MIZZ 191 369 51.8 2185 5.9 17 60 11 110.7
2005 MIZZ 237 399 59.4 2304 5.8 13 50 9 114.1

Rushing Stats
YEAR TEAM ATT YDS AVG LNG TD FD FUM LOST
2002 MIZZ 193 1029 5.3 75 7 0 0 0
2003 MIZZ 212 1406 6.6 64 18 0 0 0
2004 MIZZ 165 553 3.4 36 4 0 0 0
2005 MIZZ 229 1301 5.7 79 16 0 0 0

************
03 & 05 were huge seasons for him!

If you just want to look at numbers to compare, then I'd say Brad Smith is the best dual threat QB in the history of FB! Avg 2200 yrds passing and 1000 yrds rushing over his 4 seasons! Over 12000 total yrds and 102 TDs! 56 passing TDs, 45 rushing TDs!

Dr. Toro
01-30-2006, 03:24 PM
Brad Smith had the best dual threat QB career, no doubt. However, he never displayed the ability to be an elite passer like Young, and his career YPC is lower than VY's.

I did a little research, looked up all the great running QBs of memory (Crouch, Frazier, Ward, Stewart, Matt Jones, Michael Bishop, Vick, Brad Smith, Steve Young, McNabb) and none of them had a better career rushing average than Young's 6.84. Jones was the closest with 6.31 but he did it on significantly less carries. I can't find UNLV stats on Cunningham, but he averaged a very impressive 6.4 for his NFL career (of course, sacks count against passing in the NFL and rushing in the NCAA).

Can anyone find a QB with a higher career rushing average than Young? I think this is an important point, he doesn't just seem to be a great running QB, he might be the best rusher to play the position. This is what separates him from just about every seemingly comparable (Vick, Akili Smith, Culpepper) QB except Randall Cunningham.

Texans_Chick
01-30-2006, 03:50 PM
How does the saying go? "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics"

I cannot wait for draft day. I feel like a kid on Christmas Day. I wonder what gifts the Texans will give us this season.

BTW, when does FA begin, March 1st?


Just want to add that I put this thread together just because people were slinging comparisons around left and right about VY that I didn't think were accurate. I also put it together because I was curious. I knew my eyes were telling me something about VY, but I wanted to see his stats too, and how they compared to others. Stats ain't the whole story, but it is something interesting to know.

As for draft day, I was thinking about this some today when I was driving around in my car. There are any number of guys in this draft who would be legit #1s in a draft that wasn't so stacked. But at the end of the day, the two players I really want to see how they do in the NFL are Bush and Young. You know, the kind of players that make you think you need Sunday Ticket. (wish it weren't on DirecTV--that is an evil company, IMO).

MikeMc
01-30-2006, 05:00 PM
YPC has more to do with the WRs ability to get YACs.....not the Passer's ability. Imagine an offense with short passes but with great WRs. WHo is helping with the YPC more...the WRs or the QB?

Another worthless part in the Passer Rating/Effic equation!


To say Young is an elite passer is just retarded! Please....the offense was the key, not him. The OL played a major part in it as did the WRs. Hell, I could have gotten those numbers with those guys around me!

Fighting Blue Hen
01-30-2006, 05:25 PM
To say Young is an elite passer is just retarded! Please....the offense was the key, not him. The OL played a major part in it as did the WRs. Hell, I could have gotten those numbers with those guys around me!

Matt Nordgren looked pretty pathetic when Young was on the sidelines and that same offense sputtered. So much so that every Texas fan knew they would be doomed if Young would have gotten hurt.

Some of you (for who knows what reason - school rivalry maybe?) are hating Young so much you are starting to make silly comments like this one.

Dr. Toro
01-30-2006, 05:26 PM
YPC has more to do with the WRs ability to get YACs.....not the Passer's ability. Imagine an offense with short passes but with great WRs. WHo is helping with the YPC more...the WRs or the QB?

Another worthless part in the Passer Rating/Effic equation!


To say Young is an elite passer is just retarded! Please....the offense was the key, not him. The OL played a major part in it as did the WRs. Hell, I could have gotten those numbers with those guys around me!

I'm talking about Yards Per Carry. Vince was a more effective runner throughout his career than Smith, based on this statistic. In regards to passing, Yards Per Attempt is the important number, it reflects accuracy, as well as how deep or well placed the throws are. Young was almost twice as good as Smith in this regard (9.3 to 5.8).

YPA is a very important measure of efficiency. Without it all you really have is touchdown/INT ratio and completion percentage.

If you lead the nation in passing efficiency for the regular season, then you are an elite passer. What else can you do to prove yourself? He was the offense. His OL was very good, but everybody said his receivers were a bunch of nobodies coming into the season. Maybe they'll all be NFL first rounders, but it sure seems like he made them a heckuvalot better.

MikeMc
01-30-2006, 08:00 PM
Please, his WRs were a bunch of VHTs players! (VHT = Very Highly Touted). The OL was the same and one of the top 5 in the Nation.

BTW, like I said, YPA (or YPC) is a reflection of the WR. Comp% is used to show accuracy, TD-INT ratio shows decision making ability (i.e. reading defense).

YPA is a wasted stat when comparing QBs effeciency because it is the one variable that can be manipulated by having outstanding WRs. VY was throwing jump balls most of the time, or throwing dump passes to RBs or TEs.....that was more a reflection of what the others could do once they got the ball...not what VY could do.

I am not Hating on VY for any particular reason...just giving my opinion that he is not the super stud NFL prospect that you all think. Most of you are so Jaded by the Rose Bowl that you are letting emotions get the better of you. Kubiak does not want to base his 1st Head coaching job on what some developmental QB can bring to the table in 3 or 4 years. Kube might not be around that long if the Texans do not start winning.....and by winning I mean have a winning record (more wins than losses). With VY at the helm, it will never happen.

HoustonFrog
01-30-2006, 08:15 PM
I am not Hating on VY for any particular reason...just giving my opinion that he is not the super stud NFL prospect that you all think. Most of you are so Jaded by the Rose Bowl that you are letting emotions get the better of you. Kubiak does not want to base his 1st Head coaching job on what some developmental QB can bring to the table in 3 or 4 years. Kube might not be around that long if the Texans do not start winning.....and by winning I mean have a winning record (more wins than losses). With VY at the helm, it will never happen.

I'm not even wanting to pick him and I strongly disagree with this. People are judging not just on the Rose Bowl but 2 Rose Bowls and 2 1/2 seasons that saw him go 29-2. That is a winner and leader. He did the same thing he did in the Rose Bowl to many other teams. You and the rest of us have no clue if it will take 3-4 years. Guys like Rothlisberger have done it. Same with Brady and others. It is a crap shoot and making blanket statements at this point is absurd.

Dr. Toro
01-30-2006, 08:39 PM
If you even throw out YPA (which measures accuracy because incompletions are weighted with a 0) he had a 65% completion rate and threw 26 TDs to 10 INTs. He didn't run those numbers up against bad teams (he threw 31 times between Rice and La. Lafayette). The only game he threw more than 30 times was against USC. So you are seeing a whole lot of consistency here, not a few statistical outliers that jack up his numbers.

So you're gonna tell me it was all his receivers getting 15 yards per completion on easy little dumpoffs. The jump ball thing is a myth, of his 26 TD passes this year, I think maybe 2 or 3 were jumpballs. By contrast 7-10 of his TDs were perfect passes to the corners/sidelines/backlines of the endzone where only his receiver could get to it. Watch a highlight film, try the Prospect Videos thread, look at Vinny's link.

Yes, his receivers were highly touted, but so are the receivers at every perennial top 25 major conference school, do all of them put up numbers like Vince Young did this year?

Texas receivers performance prior to 2005:

Billy Pittman (SO)- 0 catches
Quan Cosby (FR)-
Jamaal Charles (FR)
Brian Carter (SO)- 1 catch, 16 yards
Ramonce Taylor (SO)- 3 catches, 64 yards
Limas Sweed (SO)- 23 catches, 263 yards
David Thomas (SR)- 47 catches, 700 yards

It was all them wasn't it. I'm sure anybody could have put up monster numbers with such a salty group. College football news has them ranked as the 49th best receiving unit coming into 2005.

EDIT: Look at Leinart, 28 TD/8 INT, 65% and lower QB rating than Young. See how many of his lineman go in the top 2 rounds (Justice, Matua, Lutui) 2 of his RBs will go in the 1st, Kiper has Kirtman as the 5th best FB and Byrd as the 4th best TE, see where Smith and Jarrett end up getting drafted next year (1st round most likely). Looks like Leinart had vastly superior talent and performed similar results to Young. How do you account for this?

thunderkyss
01-30-2006, 08:49 PM
Please, his WRs were a bunch of VHTs players! (VHT = Very Highly Touted). The OL was the same and one of the top 5 in the Nation.

BTW, like I said, YPA (or YPC) is a reflection of the WR. Comp% is used to show accuracy, TD-INT ratio shows decision making ability (i.e. reading defense).

YPA is a wasted stat when comparing QBs effeciency because it is the one variable that can be manipulated by having outstanding WRs. VY was throwing jump balls most of the time, or throwing dump passes to RBs or TEs.....that was more a reflection of what the others could do once they got the ball...not what VY could do.
hmmmm.... You'd think with so many professional analysts refering to YPA when they talk about a QBs effeciency, that it would have something to do with effeciency....... I agree that on the jump balls, and the plays where the defenders just fell down after the catch was made, the qB has little to do with that, other than identifying possible mismatches, and having the sense to put it where the reciever has an advantage of being able to come down with it. But Vince has made plenty of passes, where leading his recievers helped with YPA, and he was able to find the open reciever on most occasions. But that is what that offense is designed to do..... make it easier to find the open reciever. You'd think more college coaches would use it.


I am not Hating on VY for any particular reason...just giving my opinion that he is not the super stud NFL prospect that you all think. Most of you are so Jaded by the Rose Bowl that you are letting emotions get the better of you. Kubiak does not want to base his 1st Head coaching job on what some developmental QB can bring to the table in 3 or 4 years. Kube might not be around that long if the Texans do not start winning.....and by winning I mean have a winning record (more wins than losses). With VY at the helm, it will never happen.
I think it's going to take Carr 3-4 years to develop...................... time will tell.

kastofsna
01-31-2006, 11:20 AM
stats are meaningless when comparing college prospects. culpepper and akili smith don't even belong on this list when compared to young. completely different players

iamatexansfan
01-31-2006, 11:32 AM
Comparing the two is not fair because they play different positions. The greatest argument for V.Y. is his will to win. He proved that in consecutive Rose Bowls, which I believe is the hardest bowl to win due to the stadium itself, the number of people in attendance, and the spotlight it garners being the "granddaddy of 'em all". Add in the fact that Texas is from an outsider conference ( not Big 10 or Pac 10 ) and that makes those 2 wins huge in my book. V.Y. did not win those games by himself, but as the q.b., i.e. the general of an offense, he gets most of the credit, and I feel in these cases, rightfully so. Also remember that his only 2 losses were at the hands of OU, which both years they played for the national championship.
R.B. in the other comparison, is more of a piece player, i.e., a bishop or a knight. Doesn't see all the action of an every down player, but still makes an impact on the game.
The question is: do we need an every down player with the will to take a team on his shoulders, move it down the field and win, or a piece player that can have an impact, but when and how? This will be up to our new head coach and a creative offense that can keep a defense on its heels.

MikeMc
01-31-2006, 11:49 AM
Nope. once the Texans OL develops, then the QB will be fine. In the NFL, your QB must have protection because the Defenses are that tough...college is different.

Please, you are going to even try and compare VY to ML? As far as QBs, ML is better, athletes...that would be VY. Kordell and Randle El were great athletes....that ended up in different roles in the NFL.

thunderkyss
02-02-2006, 01:22 PM
why is matt wearing that leg brace?? was that just for the rose bowl??

bckey
02-02-2006, 01:40 PM
So you're saying you wouldn't trade David Carr for Dante??


I wouldn't

eclem5
02-02-2006, 05:25 PM
Texan Chick - Nice research; I kinda think that VY has no real comparisons. I think he's one-of-a-kind, but that's just me. Potentially, he could revolutionize the QB-position in the NFL.

:brickwall What is killing me and so many others is that some people can't or refuse to see that

eclem5
02-02-2006, 05:30 PM
Yeah I would take Carr over Culpepper I mean the guy lost Moss and does horrible. Carr lost AJ for most of the season, but still posted decent #s. Culpepper had the opportunity to do well this year and didn't capitalize on it. Injury aside when Johnson took over they as a team improved. If Carr is out of the game and they put in Banks I almost want to change channels to avoid having my retinas explode from what I have to put them through. Leftwich is out and Garrard put up good #'s and beleive it or not I think if Garrard had been in during the Pats game they would have had a better opportunity. I'm not a die hard Carr fan and if they draft VY, then cool. In my opinion though Carr has proven he has talent, untapped talent, but I believe it's there. Also thunder kiss get off the gas man. McNabb and Culpepper did well, because they had good coaching and talent around them. They can step back and see the pocket crumbling, Carr can't do that. What Carr does is step back and start counting clouds because there is no pocket in his world and after the momentary loss of consciousness after a hit he didn't see coming the only comfort he can take in this world is that the clouds won't fail him.

Get over the Man Crush, The LAM is to much

eclem5
02-02-2006, 05:34 PM
YPC has more to do with the WRs ability to get YACs.....not the Passer's ability. Imagine an offense with short passes but with great WRs. WHo is helping with the YPC more...the WRs or the QB?

Another worthless part in the Passer Rating/Effic equation!


To say Young is an elite passer is just retarded! Please....the offense was the key, not him. The OL played a major part in it as did the WRs. Hell, I could have gotten those numbers with those guys around me!
This is so right, I'm tired of meaningless stats that one can skew for any point.
ESPN does that all the time.

Most important stat by far is Most Championships followed by
Wins and Losses

eclem5
02-02-2006, 05:36 PM
I don't see any way that Vince can throw the ball over 55-60 yards, I never saw him throw one that long and his throwing motion would make it very difficult to do that, not to mention most of his passes over 30 yards downfield were generally badly underthrown and he had to rely on his big WRs jumping over the DBs to catch the ball.

I saw Vince Throw 50-55 yards when he was in High School, Your just Totally wrong on that one

thunderkyss
02-02-2006, 10:46 PM
:brickwall What is killing me and so many others is that some people can't or refuse to see that


What scares them, is that word could....... could revolutionize the position. & that's understandable. But if you followed Vince for the last two years, watched his games, watch him grow, listen to his interviews, and listen to what people who know him say about him....... there'd be little doubt that he will do well at the next level. He is one of those people who know that it takes hard work to be successfull, and he isn't scared to put in the work.

That coupled with the idea that Carr is every bit as good as Peyton Manning, and that he will do here, what Peyton has done in Indy. I believe he could be, but there is that word again.......... could.