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View Full Version : Unbiased comparison of VY and Reggie Bush?


gtexan02
01-11-2006, 07:50 PM
Ok here are the rules for this thread:

Post a Pro/Con (try to be honest and unbiased here) about either VY or Bush. If you post a pro about VY, you must also post a con. If you post a con about Bush, you must also post a Pro for him, etc. Limit your responses to 1 Pro/Con per post!

I'll start by summing up most of what I've heard so far on the boards:

Reggie Bush
Pros:
Plays 3 positoins very well (WR, RB, PR)
Is extremely fast (around a 4.3 40 time)
Has ridiculous juking moves
Sees the field very well, finding holes and exploding into them
Has the size to run over/stiff arm would be tacklers
Is being compared to Gale Sayers
Mentored by LT

Cons:
Generally averages around 15 carries per game
Runs East-West more often than between the tackles
We already have Domanick Davis
Bush's success is partly due to the great USC O-Line, and if he played behind our OL, who knows what would happen

Stats:
200 Rush Attempts for 1740 yards (8.7 ypc) and 16 rushing TDs (0 fumbles)
37 Receptions for 478 yards (12.9 ypc) and 2 receiving TDs

In Important Situations: Rosebowl Game Stats (Against University of Texas- #6 Total Defense)
13 Carries for 82 yards (6.3 ypc) 1 Rushing TD, 6 receptions for 95 yards

Vince Young
Pros:
Has the heart of a champion, and knows how to win games
Can create plays with his legs
Became an accurate and efficient passer his junior year
Sees the whole field well
Makes players around him better
Mentored by Steve McNair

Cons:
Wacky half-flip throwing motion
Tends to try to win games single handedly in crunch time
We already have David Carr
Played well because of UTs great OL. Behind ours, who knows what would happen

Stats:
212/325 passes (65.2% completion) for 3036 yards (9.34 ypa) for 26 tds and 10 ints

155 rushing attempts for 1050 yards (6.8 ypc) for 12 TDs and 0 fumbles

In Important Games (Rose Bowl stats versus #40 total ranked USC defense)
30/40 for 267 yards and 0 TDs. Rushed 19 times for 200 yards and 3 TDs

Grid
01-11-2006, 09:42 PM
Bush
Pro: Fills our need for a back to share carries with DD, who compliments DDs running style.

Cons: Ties up alot of Cap space in our backfield.



Vince Young

Pros: A clean slate to start over with.

Cons: Running QBs dont win championships.

blockhead83
01-11-2006, 09:49 PM
I disagree with you Grid about Young being a "running QB". When I think of a running QB, I think of Antwan Randle El in college or Michael Vick's college and early NFL career. In my time watching Young in the championship game he always looked to pass first before running unless it was a designed run. I think he's very similar to Steve McNair in that he doesn't "run" unless there's nobody open and he has to scramble to evade pressure. McNair was 6 inches from a championship, and he made that Titans team, he didn't break it. I think Young's playstyle is conducive to winning championships, IMO.

Wolf
01-11-2006, 09:53 PM
http://www.houstonprofootball.com/review/review40.html


this article seemed pretty good

Seņor Stan
01-11-2006, 10:06 PM
Reggie:
Pro : Teams have to game plan around him. No current Texans with the exception of AJ have that kind of talent.

Con : Big $ would be tied up in RB

Vince :

Pro : 1st ever to pass for 3000 and rush for 1000. Could have easily padded those stats even further but came out in the 3rd quarter of most games.

Con : Would spell the end a David Carr in Houston. I don't know how the front office looks that guy in the face after subjecting him 200+ sacks without getting him any help. I still think he has the skills to get it done. I don't think there are many QBs around that could take that kind of beating and still take as many snaps as he has.

YoungTexanFan
01-11-2006, 10:07 PM
Bush
Pro: Comes from a sucessful program.

Con: Inflated numbers against some of the worst Div I defenses.


Young
Pro: Amazaing physical tools are ability to read zone defenses. Satisfies the common "man crush"

Con: Raw passer, not from pro style offense.

Fiddy
01-11-2006, 10:08 PM
Vince Young

Pros: A clean slate to start over with.

Cons: Running QBs dont win championships. And no number 1 pick for an expansion team has ever won one either...so is that another con for Carr??? :rolleyes:

hitmantx
01-11-2006, 10:08 PM
Just because a so called running QB hasn't won a SB doesn't mean one won't.

YoungTexanFan
01-11-2006, 10:13 PM
Just because a so called running QB hasn't won a SB doesn't mean one won't.

true, but sucess tends to follow history.

YoungTexanFan
01-11-2006, 10:14 PM
And no number 1 pick for an expansion team has ever won one either...so is that another con for Carr??? :rolleyes:

So then why even bother picking a QB #1 again?

Im neiter for nor against VY yet by the way.

Grid
01-11-2006, 10:14 PM
ok.. well then how about

"Running QBs do not make the playoffs as often"

look around the league and tell me that isnt true.



As for "the #1 pick for an expansion team".. that is kind of an odd stat. Thats like saying no RB has ever run for 100 yards in a single quarter of overtime. It may be true.. but its a very small sample size :).

Fiddy
01-11-2006, 10:15 PM
So then why even bother picking a QB #1 again?

Im neiter for nor against VY yet by the way. I'm saying the teams first ever pick. A teams first ever pick has never won a Super Bowl. If y'all are going to say scrambling QBs have never won one, which VY isnt a scramble first QB, then I can bring up that no first number 1 for an expansion team has never won one.

Fiddy
01-11-2006, 10:19 PM
ok.. well then how about

"Running QBs do not make the playoffs as often"

look around the league and tell me that isnt true.



As for "the #1 pick for an expansion team".. that is kind of an odd stat. Thats like saying no RB has ever run for 100 yards in a single quarter of overtime. It may be true.. but its a very small sample size :). And relative to NFL history, there hasnt been many scrambling QBs. Just a few before the outburst over the last few years.

And I hate to tell you, 3 scrambling QBs made the playoffs last year: McNabb, Vick and Culpepper all made it. McNabb made it to the Super Bowl, Vick to the Championship game and Culpepper lost to Vick after beating Favre. So saying they dont make the playoffs isnt very true either when McNabb has been there about 5 times, I think, maybe just 4. Vick twice and Culpepper has been there once or twice. And McNair has been to the playoff a few times and even a Superbowl.

YoungTexanFan
01-11-2006, 10:19 PM
I'm saying the teams first ever pick. A teams first ever pick has never won a Super Bowl. If y'all are going to say scrambling QBs have never won one, which VY isnt a scramble first QB, then I can bring up that no first number 1 for an expansion team has never won one.

its a stretch, and you may be a little far out on the limb, but for arguments sake, how many expansion teams have won a superbolw with their original QB?

VY isnt a scrambler, he is a player. He can scramble but he looks to pass first.

Again, I am neither for or against him at this point.

Grid
01-11-2006, 10:21 PM
This whole "vince young isnt a run first QB" thing.. is kinda silly.

Is there such thing as a run first QB? Vick maybe.

A running QB is a QB who makes plays with his legs if he cant find an open receiver. That doesnt sound like a bad thing.. until you consider that QBs who stay in the pocket and make plays with their arms..are the ones who win superbowls. While one QB might roll out and look for the open guy.. a running QB may look for a hole and run it himself.

It may not seem huge.. but it is.. in big games with two really talented teams.. its the passing plays that win games.. that is where the big plays come from.

If you want to argue VY as a pocket QB vs. Carr as a pocket QB.. id say Carr is the winner. Quote VYs college stats all you want.. but he does NOT have Carrs passing abilities. You call VY a great accurate passer.. but how many of those passes were 5-7 yard dump offs to his favorite target, David Thomas? Compare VYs passing stats in college to Carr's passing stats in college and i think it will show that Carr has the upper hand there.

Choosing between Carr the Pocket QB and Reggie Bush.. or just VY the pocket QB.. i gotta go with Carr and Bush.

YoungTexanFan
01-11-2006, 10:23 PM
This whole "vince young isnt a run first QB" thing.. is kinda silly.

Is there such thing as a run first QB? Vick maybe.

A running QB is a QB who makes plays with his legs if he cant find an open receiver. That doesnt sound like a bad thing.. until you consider that QBs who stay in the pocket and make plays with their arms..are the ones who win superbowls. While one QB might roll out and look for the open guy.. a running QB may look for a hole and run it himself.

It may not seem huge.. but it is.. in big games with two really talented teams.. its the passing plays that win games.. that is where the big plays come from.

If you want to argue VY as a pocket QB vs. Carr as a pocket QB.. id say Carr is the winner. Quote VYs college stats all you want.. but he does NOT have Carrs passing abilities. You call VY a great accurate passer.. but how many of those passes were 5-7 yard dump offs to his favorite target, David Thomas? Compare VYs passing stats in college to Carr's passing stats in college and i think it will show that Carr has the upper hand there.

Choosing between Carr the Pocket QB and Reggie Bush.. or just VY the pocket QB.. i gotta go with Carr and Bush.

no arguments except for bush, but that is another post and has been beaten already. :deadhorse

Fiddy
01-11-2006, 10:28 PM
A running QB is a QB who makes plays with his legs if he cant find an open receiver. That doesnt sound like a bad thing.. until you consider that QBs who stay in the pocket and make plays with their arms..are the ones who win superbowls. While one QB might roll out and look for the open guy.. a running QB may look for a hole and run it himself. And Carr stays in the pocket??? After two seconds he starts "scrambling" outside the pocket and then sacks himself when he runs into the way of a defender because the o-lineman have no idea where he is. Carr is probably more of a "scrambler" than VY. Carr hasnt learned any pocket presence in 4 years. I've never seen him stay in the pocket till the last possible second then release the ball knowing he is going to get hit. He gets happy feet, runs outside the pocket and then makes the o-line look bad when he takes a sack and doesnt throw the ball away.

its a stretch, and you may be a little far out on the limb, but for arguments sake, how many expansion teams have won a superbolw with their original QB? None and that's what I'm saying. If you are going to go pull up the history of the NFL, then Carr should be out of here because history has told us an expansion's team orignal first pick will not win a Superbowl. There are other times to use NFL history, this is not one of those.

Grid
01-11-2006, 10:31 PM
And Carr stays in the pocket??? After two seconds he starts "scrambling" outside the pocket and then sacks himself when he runs into the way of a defender because the o-lineman have no idea where he is. Carr is probably more of a "scrambler" than VY. Carr hasnt learned any pocket presence in 4 years. I've never seen him stay in the pocket till the last possible second then release the ball knowing he is going to get hit. He gets happy feet, runs outside the pocket and then makes the o-line look bad when he takes a sack and doesnt throw the ball away

Well he has been trying to make plays with a bad line :).. that isnt the type of QB he is though. He has an origin as a pocket QB.. and with coaching and an improved Oline he could return to that. Id say its easier to re-teach a former Pocket QB, than to teach a running QB without pocket QB characteristics, to be a pocket QB.

We totally hijacked this thread :)

Fiddy
01-11-2006, 10:36 PM
Well he has been trying to make plays with a bad line :).. That's where we differ. You think the line is bad, I think the QB makes the O-line look bad because of his poor pocket awareness.

YoungTexanFan
01-11-2006, 10:36 PM
None and that's what I'm saying. If you are going to go pull up the history of the NFL, then Carr should be out of here because history has told us an expansion's team orignal first pick will not win a Superbowl. There are other times to use NFL history, this is not one of those.

So how many 2nd for an expansion team QB's have there been fiddy?

Predicting SB QB's is harder than the lotto. There is a system of numbers for the lotto, so much more to factor in for a SB QB.

YoungTexanFan
01-11-2006, 10:38 PM
That's where we differ. You think the line is bad, I think the QB makes the O-line look bad because of his poor pocket awareness.

He is aware of the pocket colappsing. He will duck when he hears steps. We have had to use only 1.5 or 3 step drops in our passing game. His reads may not be up to par, but his awarness is fine for me. He should have a rear-view camera though to see his blindside with this line.

Fiddy
01-11-2006, 10:39 PM
So how many 2nd for an expansion team QB's have there been fiddy?

Predicting SB QB's is harder than the lotto. There is a system of numbers for the lotto, so much more to factor in for a SB QB. Um, none of those franchises have picked a QB number 1 overall again so we'd be the first to try :D

Yeah, it is hard, that's why I dont like people pulling up NFL history to state that a certain type of player has never won a Superbowl.

Grid
01-11-2006, 10:41 PM
I think that is where most all of the conflict comes from Fiddy.

Some feel that Carr is a big contributor to the Olines performance. Others feel that the Oline and coaches should take the majority of the blame, and Carr should get another chance.

and unfortunatly.. its almost impossible to say one way or the other with complete conviction.. and even harder to convince others without a highlight real of all of Carr's sacks to explain it with.

Fiddy
01-11-2006, 10:44 PM
He is aware of the pocket colappsing. He will duck when he hears steps. We have had to use only 1.5 or 3 step drops in our passing game. His reads may not be up to par, but his awarness is fine for me. He should have a rear-view camera though to see his blindside with this line. We use the short drops to hide his lack of pocket awareness.

Remember the Buffalo game, the line was responsible for just one of the 5 sacks (or whatever it was), the backs we were responible for around 2 and Carr for 2. Carr has a habit of making the o-line look bad.

YoungTexanFan
01-11-2006, 10:51 PM
We use the short drops to hide his lack of pocket awareness.

Remember the Buffalo game, the line was responsible for just one of the 5 sacks (or whatever it was), the backs we were responible for around 2 and Carr for 2. Carr has a habit of making the o-line look bad.


its not a habbit. He becomes anxious a little earlier now, but he is plenty aware and knows what a hit feels like. I could see an argument on his reads, as I do not feel he goes through them properly, but one could attribute that to the Oline or him.

I am inclined to give him a chance with full protection. If he proves to be inadacuate, Braddy Quinn next year. I could live with VY though.


The 3 step drop was not meant to hide his "lack of awarness". It was originally installed by Pendry when he was still Oline coach. He is aware of the situation and tried to make up for his own inabilities. The 3 step drop was put into more practice this year when pendry took responsiblity of OC.

DC has shown the ability to call a sucessful game himself, and check down himself also. His awarness should not be called into question at this point.

T-New41
01-11-2006, 10:57 PM
Hello Texan fans. I dont post here much, but I do read a lot of posts. It was definitely a rough year for the Texans which really surprised me, because I thoght they were on the verge of breaking through. I really like David Carr as a QB and believe he can be succesful.

However, I have watched Vince Young for the past three years while he started at QB at TX (including the days he was rotating w/ Mock). I believe that most people who dont want Vince have not watched enough of his games. That is just my personel opinion. I believe a lot of the critisms he gets are from his sophmore year, where he WAS a run first QB. People continue to label him a run-first because he had a 1000 yards rushing as a QB. Based on his performances this year, I can tell you he is NOT a run-first QB. I am basing that on the fact that I have watched every game in his career (except the ones not televised). Everyone will have a different opinion on him and they are entitled to their opinons. But to those who label him a run-first QB, that is simply not correct. Anyway, on a personel level, I believe Tennessee would be the best place for Vince to go as it will allow him to sit behind McNair for a year or two and learn the NFL ropes.

I believe he can be succesful in Houston, however people will have to be patient as he adjusts to the NFL. I would personally love to see him in Houston, because I could watch him every week (games will actually be televised in San Antonio). I have an article from the Ft Worth Telegram, it has some interesting points from the Cowboys scouting director Jeff Ireland. I thought some of you Texans fans would be interested to see what another teams scouting dept thought about Young. Anyway, good luck Texans, regardless if you guys pick Vince or Bush, I will be rooting for you to suceed and I will watch your games (as long as they arent on during Cowboy games, then I will have to switch over during commercials)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/columnists/randy_galloway/13590996.htm

Young has NFL scouts dazed, confused

BY RANDY GALLOWAY

Fort Worth Star-Telegram

FORT WORTH, Texas - There's a respected NFL scout, a longtime friend, who has been giving me a blunt and brutal opinion for more than a year on the quarterbacking talents of one Vince Young.

By the way, both the blunt and brutal were part of an agreement that his name would never be used.

But this guy's standard line on Young as a future NFL quarterback was always "not with my name on him."

Meaning he certainly wouldn't be recommending that his team draft Young in the first round.

"Throws like a girl," was his non-PC answer as late as early December.

But this same scout was also at the Rose Bowl last week, evaluating talent.

When I caught up with him by phone over the weekend, he sounded dazed and confused.

"What do I think now?" he answered, repeating my question.

"I don't know what to think now. Except that Vince Young is the most unique player I believe I've ever seen.

"There's been nothing like him. I scouted (Michael) Vick a lot. He's better than Vick. But . . ."

But what?

"If I worked for Houston, I wouldn't know what to tell them. I think I'd still take (Reggie) Bush with that pick. But somebody is really going to be very wrong, or very right, on Young."

Some of the best defensive minds in college football, including USC coach Pete Carroll, had their brains fried by Vince Offense.

Now it's the NFL's turn to be dazed and confused.

There's suddenly no doubt Young will go among the first three picks in April (1. the Texans, 2. the Saints, 3. the Titans).

But at the start of this college season, I don't think anyone had Young even being in the first round. Not as a quarterback.

Vince, however, has forced the NFL to play its hand. First, by the season he had, capped by the Rose Bowl. Second, by declaring Sunday for the draft.

Me, I was hoping he would be back in Austin for one more year. But that was based on personal entertainment. I just wanna have fun watching these games. Vince Young provides more fun than anyone I can remember.

Then again, from a pure financial standpoint, how could Young have done anything else? His football value is at a peak. Go ahead, cash in on that peak.

But now comes the tearing-down process. Between now and April, there will be nothing but negative overkill in the evaluation department.

Bush is already going through it.

He was All-World Can't Miss until the Rose Bowl game. Now, you hear the whispers about durability and toughness. Or, based on NFL needs, was he even the best running back at USC?

Matt Leinart?

Same thing. A year ago, he was a quarterbacking god. But even after a great Rose Bowl performance, Leinart is currently being knocked for a lack of arm strength and mobility.

Bet this, however:

What is about to commence with Vince Young might be the biggest evaluation debate any NFL D raft has ever experienced.

But Michael Vick was the first pick of the draft, and Michael Vick is now the highest-paid player in the NFL.

If that's the guideline ...

Some of us also say Vick is the most overrated player in the NFL.

But Young has more working for him, including the natural-born leader aspect, along with being a better passer.

Anyway, can a college quarterback limited to working out of the shotgun, and throwing with a funky sidearm delivery, actually be a success in the National Football League?

That depends on which scout you are asking.

Or which evaluation process is being used.

But Jeff Ireland believes strongly in Rac-Ac.

"Rac-Ac?"

Never heard of it.

Ireland, the Cowboys vice president of college and pro scouting, answered, "It means run- after-catch accuracy."

OK, now I understand.

Is the quarterback delivering the ball to the right spot, allowing a receiver to run for additional yardage after the catch?

"Vince Young does that, and does it well," said Ireland. "In our business, we look at his delivery, and it's so screwed up, the way he kinda flicks the ball out there with a side-armed motion.

"A scout sees that, and he goes, `Oh, no.' "

But if you keep watching, explained Ireland, the ball is delivered with accuracy and touch.

"Young's Rac-Ac is very good," he said.

"And then you mix in the ability to buy time with his feet, escape trouble, and then do something after that, and you've got what we are looking for."

Is Ireland sold on Young being an NFL success?

"First, he's obviously a terrific talent, and second, I don't think the NFL has ever seen anything exactly like him," he answered. "If we had the first pick in the draft, a lot of work would be involved.

"But he's the kind of player, with that size, that speed and the ability to avoid the direct hit, well, I wouldn't want to be passing on him."

Give it a few years, and we will have the NFL answer on Vince Young.

But now? If I'm Houston, I'm taking him, hometown kid and all.

And you?

Speak up now, because second-guessing on this question won't be allowed later.

Do you or don't you?

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/sports/football/nfl/san_francisco_49ers/13591230.htm

ReggieBushFan
01-11-2006, 11:09 PM
Reggie Bush

pro: will be the best athlete on the offense, he is muliti-talented in and can be used in a variety of ways, just a flat out playmaker and game changer

con: will not be able to carry 25 times per game if need be


Vince Young:

pro: great winning attitude and great leader, lots of raw talent

con: will not be able to use the same style of play and be effective at the next level, he is a huge gamble in my opinion

beerlover
01-11-2006, 11:24 PM
Give it a few years, and we will have the NFL answer on Vince Young. But now? If I'm Houston, I'm taking him, hometown kid and all.

And you?

Speak up now, because second-guessing on this question won't be allowed later.

Do you or don't you?

Vince has played a strong hand, one the Texans can only hope will be resonable & that he is willing some sacrifice to build a Championship caliber NFL franchise (meaning some of Carr's bonus will have to be absorbed against the salary cap in a trade, so I see his contract backloaded).

Look Houston loves Vince Young he is a hometown marvel and testamont to the women who raised him and the neighborhoods/schools he grew up and played in. Carr does not need to suffer anymore as a Texan he can go to a team that fits his style & character. Bush is a great player but you just don't build a franchise around a RB/WR/KR not to mention the Texans already have DD, AJ & JM.

If I have the pick the Houston Texans with the 1st overall pick in the 2006 NFL Draft select from the University of Texas Vince Young :yahoo:

texplayer2
01-12-2006, 01:02 AM
Vince has played a strong hand, one the Texans can only hope will be resonable & that he is willing some sacrifice to build a Championship caliber NFL franchise (meaning some of Carr's bonus will have to be absorbed against the salary cap in a trade, so I see his contract backloaded).

Look Houston loves Vince Young he is a hometown marvel and testamont to the women who raised him and the neighborhoods/schools he grew up and played in. Carr does not need to suffer anymore as a Texan he can go to a team that fits his style & character. Bush is a great player but you just don't build a franchise around a RB/WR/KR not to mention the Texans already have DD, AJ & JM.

If I have the pick the Houston Texans with the 1st overall pick in the 2006 NFL Draft select from the University of Texas Vince Young :yahoo:

Sounds Unbaised to Me?:hmmm: :listening Poor Carr is suffering:shocked save him Vince Superman.

OzzO
01-12-2006, 08:50 AM
Bush / Young

pro: both will be a good addition to the Texans

con: because of the others that don't watch much college games (like me) cranked up the hype machine for / against even more based off a decision to watch the Rose bowl.

Bush
pro: split time with DD - most likely drop Hollings and Wells

con: need a heck of an O-line, personally don't recall seeing tackles shaken off.

Young
pro: noted as a leader and calm under pressure in his previous years

con: need to go find a veteran QB for a year or 2 contract that will give the Texans a decent season. Carr will get the Vinny chants after the 1st incompletion or short yardage gain.

MorKnolle
01-12-2006, 09:56 AM
Bush / Young

pro: both will be a good addition to the Texans

con: because of the others that don't watch much college games (like me) cranked up the hype machine for / against even more based off a decision to watch the Rose bowl.

Bush
pro: split time with DD - most likely drop Hollings and Wells

con: need a heck of an O-line, personally don't recall seeing tackles shaken off.

Young
pro: noted as a leader and calm under pressure in his previous years

con: need to go find a veteran QB for a year or 2 contract that will give the Texans a decent season. Carr will get the Vinny chants after the 1st incompletion or short yardage gain.

The OLine bit applies just as much to Vince as it does to Reggie.

Texans_Chick
01-12-2006, 02:17 PM
Here are my list of pros and cons (I'm sure I am leaving things out):


Reggie Bush
Pros:
Playmaker and game changer
Plays 3 positions well (WR, RB, PR)
Is extremely fast (around a 4.3 40 time)
Has great balance and change of direction while running at speed.
Sees the field very well, finding holes and exploding into them
Success at every level
Nice hands, able to catch longer passes as well as the short ones.
Very difficult to tackle in the open field.
If you get Bush, you have two 1st round picks on the field at the same time.
Played at a top quality program and is used to winning.
Mentored by LT

Cons:
Non-traditional NFL player size--could be a Marshall Faulk, or may be a utility player, that is a great athlete good at a lot of things but not extremely good in the areas that an NFL team would need him. (A specialty RB would be better, a specialty WR would be better, a specialty KR would be better).
At first pick money, most teams won't want to use his return skills.
RBs tend not to last long in the NFL.
Hard to evaluate given how USC used him.
Generally averages around 15 carries per game
Runs East-West more often than between the tackles, the outside and reversing field may not work as much in the modern NFL with faster players at every position.
Is better dealing with players in the open field, versus the bread and butter of the NFL of breaking the original point of contact and getting a few extra yards.
RB is already a strength on this team. DD got a contract extension.
Already have a speedy All-Pro kickoff returner.
Bush played behind USC O-Line, and if he played behind our OL, who knows what would happen
Our team needs much more depth and we may be able to trade out of the 1st pick to help the needs in every part of the team.
A question about how much he wants to play in Houston for a losing newly franchised team.


Stats:
200 Rush Attempts for 1740 yards (8.7 ypc) and 16 rushing TDs (0 fumbles)
37 Receptions for 478 yards (12.9 ypc) and 2 receiving TDs

In Important Situations: Rosebowl Game Stats (Against University of Texas- #6 Total Defense, Tied #27 Turnover Margin, #25 Turnovers Gained)
13 Carries for 82 yards (6.3 ypc) 1 Rushing TD, 6 receptions for 95 yards

Vince Young
Pros:
Playmaker and game changer
Nice NFL size for a QB.
Unprecedented combination of throwing and running ability at the QB level--his stats are beyond most comparisons people try to make--beyond the college stats of many successful NFL players.
Became an accurate and efficient passer his junior year.
Able to elude the rush and pass on the move.
Able to create plays with his legs and keeps Ds honest with the ability to run.
Became an accurate and efficient passer his junior year
Difficult to tackle. If he gets passed the first round of defenders, he is difficult for secondary players to bring down or tackle in the open field.
When flushed from the pocket, seldom takes a hard hit--elusive long stride style makes tackle angles difficult.
Great balance while running at speed, almost effortless. Deceptively fast for someone of his size.
Sees the whole field well
Extremely competitive, makes players around him better but can take over games on the college level.
Calm pocket presense.
QBs touch the ball for every offensive possession and tend to get better over time--he has improved each year.
Mentored by Steve McNair
Success at every level
Played at a top quality program and is used to winning.
He is unafraid of playing for a newly franchised team and would welcome being in Houston and has been lobbying for it.


Cons:
Unorthodox side arm throwing motion
Hard to evaluate because of how UT used him.
Hard to tell about coachability--does Vince have to be Vince?
Difficult situation putting him on a team that has David Carr--both morale and capwise. David Carr's contract situation is a negative to choosing VY.
A question about how much he could run in the NFL and withstand hits and how he could be used.
A question about his passing skills--most of the remarkable passing stats are in one year.
Instead of getting two 1st picks on the field at the same time, we would only have one.
QBs take longer to develop.
Played behind UTs great OL. Behind ours, who knows what would happen
Our team needs much more depth and we may be able to trade out of the 1st pick to help the needs in every part of the team.

Stats:
212/325 passes (65.2% completion) for 3036 yards (9.34 ypa) for 26 tds and 10 ints

155 rushing attempts for 1050 yards (6.8 ypc) for 12 TDs and 0 fumbles

In Important Games (Rose Bowl stats versus #40 total ranked USC defense, #1 in turnovers gain and turnover margin)
30/40 for 267 yards and 0 TDs. Rushed 19 times for 200 yards and 3 TDs

Trading Down

Per NFL.com

In 2005, the Texans offense was rated 30th in the league. It had the 30th rated pass offense and the 15th ranked rush offense.

In 2005, the Texans defense was rated 31st in the league. The rushing defense was 32nd in the league. Our pass defense was 24th in the league. Though our rushing defense is likely to be bad given how many times the Texans got down quickly in games, this is ungood.

Pros:

Our team needs more depth. 4th quarters are better with more depth.
Better values can be found in lower positions in the draft--in the era of the salary cap, finding quality players at good values is important to do.
Our team is relatively solid at the QB and RB positions relative to other parts of our team.
Team needs help on both the offensive and defensive side of the ball.
Maybe we can get a trade that involves actual experienced players--the kind that are difficult for us to attract by free agency to a team with no winning tradition.

Cons:
A trade for just picks will not give our team more experience.
Our team needs more playmakers--those are more likely to be found at the top of the draft.
IMO, there are no Olinemen in this draft worthy of a top 10 pick and Olinemen do not develop quickly. (that's beyond the scope of this post).
Trading down doesn't satisfy general public fans who fail to show up to games. Our team needs the loudness that we have experienced in previous years and something to get excited about--draft picks for next year usually don't fit the bill. General public fan base may not be patient for some no-name picks.
We might be missing out on some potential HoF players at the top of the draft. Might get a sack of potatoes in exchange.
A true #1 QB/RB has the potential of doing a big turnaround of a bad team because of their effect on play.
The possibility of Bush/VY as playmakers going to a division/market rival.
More "name" players can help give a team more identity.

So there you have it. :redtowel:

Long Baller
01-12-2006, 02:40 PM
It's great that everyone can stick to the objective of the post...:brickwall

Bush:
Pros
Explosive
A winner
Possibly the best college player at his position

Cons
You never know how a college game transfers to the NFL

Young:
Pros
Explosive
A winner
Possibly the best college player at his position

Cons
You never know how a college game transfers to the NFL

Wow, they sound like the same guy. Both have all the tools to succeed, but both have the possibility to be busts.

Wolfman's Brother
01-12-2006, 03:10 PM
I thought that football was a team sport. since when does one man win games. Just curious. Name a Superbowl winning team that featured one outstanding player amoung 51 other mediocre players. The Texans need serious help besides a franchise QB or RB. I do, however, happen to agree with the point that a good QB makes the O-line better.

Maddict5
02-23-2006, 10:23 AM
how can you say D'brick isnt a top 10 pick- other than that nice post

kbourda
02-23-2006, 10:43 PM
This whole "vince young isnt a run first QB" thing.. is kinda silly.

Is there such thing as a run first QB? Vick maybe.

A running QB is a QB who makes plays with his legs if he cant find an open receiver. That doesnt sound like a bad thing.. until you consider that QBs who stay in the pocket and make plays with their arms..are the ones who win superbowls. While one QB might roll out and look for the open guy.. a running QB may look for a hole and run it himself.

It may not seem huge.. but it is.. in big games with two really talented teams.. its the passing plays that win games.. that is where the big plays come from.

If you want to argue VY as a pocket QB vs. Carr as a pocket QB.. id say Carr is the winner. Quote VYs college stats all you want.. but he does NOT have Carrs passing abilities. You call VY a great accurate passer.. but how many of those passes were 5-7 yard dump offs to his favorite target, David Thomas? Compare VYs passing stats in college to Carr's passing stats in college and i think it will show that Carr has the upper hand there.

Choosing between Carr the Pocket QB and Reggie Bush.. or just VY the pocket QB.. i gotta go with Carr and Bush.

How you fix your mouth to say VY throws dump off to his TE is kinda silly too!? You have absolutely got to be kidding me. You are ripping VY for throwing dump offs but Carr (with his grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat passing numbers last year) averaged [SIZE="4"]5.9[SIZE="4"] a pass completion. Granted we are talking apples and oranges but call a spade a spade. If Carr's accuracy is attributed to throwing these dump offs to DD and it makes him the QB of choice, so be it. But don't place Young on a higher standard for doing the same thing. Especially when you are raving about the accuracy of Carr.

Napa Auto Parts
02-23-2006, 10:50 PM
Bush Pro: Simply Amazing

Con: Cannot be counted on in crunch time pete carrol proved it by having him on the bench i wonder why?:stirpot:



i wont list youngs because ill never finish.

Dr. Toro
02-24-2006, 12:14 AM
Tends to try to win games single handedly in crunch time

This would read better if it said "Tends to win games single handedly in crunch time." Sure, VY's got a will to win... but when I watch the two late drives against USC, the one against Ohio St. I see excellent clock management and taking what the defense will give him, utilizing his teammates. He definitely was not forcing things late against OSU and USC. The shots he took were towards the back/corners of the endzone and well thrown. The rest of the time he was running for the markers and out of bounds, taking 10 yard chunks on outs and dump offs. At Kansas last year. Against Michigan in the Rose Bowl. This guy has made the play every time his team needed it. Down big to Oklahoma St. two straight years and taking it one play, one drive at a time to win.

Honestly, there were so many times over the past two years that Texas was dead to rights, down late with no momentum, and Young kept trucking. His teammates responded and they got the job done as a unit. Young's final run against USC was great, but he was helped by Justin Blalock pancaking a safety. The great ones make their teammates better, their confidence is contagious, as is their desire. These are the actual results of what people vaguely and unenthusastically refer to as "leadership skills".

So let's not take what the guy did better than maybe anyone ever in college football and turn it into a negative. Fact of the matter is, he was winning those late games because he was playing hard, confident, smart and wanted it badly. Favre, Elway, and Montana won games in crunch time, and I never saw that count against them on the ledger.