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View Full Version : Young's performance vs. USC = overrated


Sudds
01-11-2006, 05:47 PM
I like VY and think he is one heck of a player, but keep in mind that Fresno State put up 42 points vs USC. Fresno's offense dominated the USC defense, so don't get too excited about VY's performance, although it was great. And, if USC didn't have Bush, Fresno State would have won by 21 points. Look at VY's performance for what it is...a great performance vs. a horrible defense.

Also, please remember how good Carr was coming out of college, and beating teams like Wisconsin, Oregon State, Colorado, and putting up huge numbers against Michigan State...

REMEMBER...Carr became just the sixth quarterback in NCAA history to throw for 4,000 yards and 40 touchdowns. He had 4,839 passing yards and 46 touchdowns, both tops in the nation his senior season. Sick numbers, not to mention he was benching 400 lbs and squating 500lbs. The pro gam eis significantly different from college, so let's stay calm on the draft VY and dump Carr routine.

The Dream
01-11-2006, 06:00 PM
All the VY threads using the Rose Bowl too proclaim Excellence are pointless. Rose bowl just proved both these guys were good 41-38. Not 55-19.

Yes both guys are great prospects, but I don't see the point of saying VY's Rose Bowl performance was overrated.

Big B Texan Fan
01-11-2006, 06:01 PM
I like VY and think he is one heck of a player, but keep in mind that Fresno State put up 42 points vs USC. Fresno's offense dominated the USC defense, so don't get too excited about VY's performance, although it was great. And, if USC didn't have Bush, Fresno State would have won by 21 points. Look at VY's performance for what it is...a great performance vs. a horrible defense.

Also, please remember how good Carr was coming out of college, and beating teams like Wisconsin, Oregon State, Colorado, and putting up huge numbers against Michigan State...

REMEMBER...Carr became just the sixth quarterback in NCAA history to throw for 4,000 yards and 40 touchdowns. He had 4,839 passing yards and 46 touchdowns, both tops in the nation his senior season. Sick numbers, not to mention he was benching 400 lbs and squating 500lbs. The pro gam eis significantly different from college, so let's stay calm on the draft VY and dump Carr routine.


You just heard all this Carr stuff on 610 like 20 min ago. Get original and come up with your own stuff. Unless you are Marc VanDermeer, then I understand, but if not, no need to re-tread what the 610 guys are saying, we all know just about as much as they do, if not more.

tulexan
01-11-2006, 06:04 PM
I don't think people should say that Vince's performance in the Rose Bowl was overrated because it was very impressive.

My only real problem isn't even with him, it is just I don't want to wait 2-3 years minimum for him to get to the level that David Carr is at right now. I'd rather win right now than wait a few years for someone who may or may not become the player people expect him to and a quarterback that turns out to be a bust is much more damaging to a team than a RB or WR that turns out to be a bust.

The Dream
01-11-2006, 06:08 PM
You just heard all this Carr stuff on 610 like 20 min ago. Get original and come up with your own stuff. Unless you are Marc VanDermeer, then I understand, but if not, no need to re-tread what the 610 guys are saying, we all know just about as much as they do, if not more.


Next to the VY push up joke from a couple of days ago, I think this is the funniest thing I've seen on here.

Wolf
01-11-2006, 06:09 PM
I find this so funny and yet frustrating.. The excuses that people come up with against VY .. and Bush

IF you don't like VY.. it is say the defense of USC stinks and that is why he was able to do that.. maybe so.. but VY hasn't had just one game that he has been a difference maker, he has had 2 years(why don't we just take Bush's stats away from that fresno state game afterall that is what really made him the heisman winner right there)

Bush.. people that don't like Bush discredit him because USC's offense was loaded.. and just blew people away.. (namely the pac -10)


Where can we stop and just say these 2 guys did great at the college level? we can find faults with either guy all day long.


Bottom line is this..
VY knows how to win and makes his teammates around him better because they believed in him ..
Bush.. is a threat to go the distance anytime he touches the ball whether it is rushing or receiving. short distances , he won't be able to pound it in that is his weakness

end of story.

stevo3883
01-11-2006, 06:22 PM
I like VY and think he is one heck of a player, but keep in mind that Fresno State put up 42 points vs USC. Fresno's offense dominated the USC defense, so don't get too excited about VY's performance, although it was great. And, if USC didn't have Bush, Fresno State would have won by 21 points. Look at VY's performance for what it is...a great performance vs. a horrible defense.
Also, please remember how good Carr was coming out of college, and beating teams like Wisconsin, Oregon State, Colorado, and putting up huge numbers against Michigan State...

REMEMBER...Carr became just the sixth quarterback in NCAA history to throw for 4,000 yards and 40 touchdowns. He had 4,839 passing yards and 46 touchdowns, both tops in the nation his senior season. Sick numbers, not to mention he was benching 400 lbs and squating 500lbs. The pro gam eis significantly different from college, so let's stay calm on the draft VY and dump Carr routine.


few things, all that was said before the RB was how Vince wouldnt be able to operate against the "genius" Carroll with his super complicated schemes, and how with a month to prepare, Young would be shut down. Yet when Vince destroys all those schemes and picks up every blitz brilliantly, it was all about how bad usc's defense was.

second, Carr being the 6th qb to do that. sounds pretty Texas Techish to me. stats have system QB resembling TTech and other basic Pac-10 WCO's that compile stats against non existant D's.


third, the teams you listed as the best Carr beat, are middle of the pack compared to the Elites Vince has compiled his record setting 3000/1000 38TD numbers aainst.

Oklahoma
Ohio State
Michigan
USC
Texas Tech

(P.S.- vince went 25/29 336 yards 2tds 58 yds rushing 3 td's against Colorado)

Don't even try to compare their college creds. Carr had stats(so does every pac-10 QB), Vince had hardware to go with his NCAA record stats and the first national championship @ Texas in 35 years.

Nawzer
01-11-2006, 06:24 PM
Does anyone listen to Charlie Pallilo anymore?

tulexan
01-11-2006, 06:25 PM
Did you know that USC had 3 walk ons playing in that Rose Bowl game on defense?

I listen to Charlie, but haven't recently.

Double Barrel
01-11-2006, 06:26 PM
I find this so funny and yet frustrating.. The excuses that people come up with against VY .. and Bush

IF you don't like VY.. it is say the defense of USC stinks and that is why he was able to do that.. maybe so.. but VY hasn't had just one game that he has been a difference maker, he has had 2 years(why don't we just take Bush's stats away from that fresno state game afterall that is what really made him the heisman winner right there)

Bush.. people that don't like Bush discredit him because USC's offense was loaded.. and just blew people away.. (namely the pac -10)


Where can we stop and just say these 2 guys did great at the college level? we can find faults with either guy all day long.


Bottom line is this..
VY knows how to win and makes his teammates around him better because they believed in him ..
Bush.. is a threat to go the distance anytime he touches the ball whether it is rushing or receiving. short distances , he won't be able to pound it in that is his weakness

end of story.

Good post, Wolf. I've been advocating a balanced analysis by people for awhile, because adding either Bush or Young to our team adds amazing talent and potentially huge playmaking abilities regardless of who we pick. Why diss one because you support the other? Just state your case with respect and intelligence, and leave it at that.

The crux of the matter hinges on the future of Carr, and if we want to just retool the machine, or do a complete rebuild. Personally, I'm a Texans fan for the long haul, but I sure would like to see a winning season sooner than later.

aj.
01-11-2006, 06:35 PM
Does anyone listen to Charlie Pallilo anymore?

I don't because even though he's really smart, he's not good solo.

I tried to get in at the end of Rich's show after the guy was arguing for Bush because "top RBs are so much easier to project" early in the draft.

I guess he forgot about William Green and TJ Ducket being picked before Deshaun Foster and Clinton Portis in '02, Ron Dayne getting picked before Shaun Alexander in '00, and Curtis Enis being the number 1 back taken in '99. And on and on. Yes, teams can draft stupid but for every misjudged QB talent, you could probably identify at least one misjudged RB talent.

Big B Texan Fan
01-11-2006, 06:35 PM
I find this so funny and yet frustrating.. The excuses that people come up with against VY .. and Bush

IF you don't like VY.. it is say the defense of USC stinks and that is why he was able to do that.. maybe so.. but VY hasn't had just one game that he has been a difference maker, he has had 2 years(why don't we just take Bush's stats away from that fresno state game afterall that is what really made him the heisman winner right there)

Bush.. people that don't like Bush discredit him because USC's offense was loaded.. and just blew people away.. (namely the pac -10)


Where can we stop and just say these 2 guys did great at the college level? we can find faults with either guy all day long.


Bottom line is this..
VY knows how to win and makes his teammates around him better because they believed in him ..
Bush.. is a threat to go the distance anytime he touches the ball whether it is rushing or receiving. short distances , he won't be able to pound it in that is his weakness

end of story.


Standing Ovation

:thankyou: :thankyou:

texanfan2002114
01-11-2006, 06:48 PM
I like VY and think he is one heck of a player, but keep in mind that Fresno State put up 42 points vs USC. Fresno's offense dominated the USC defense, so don't get too excited about VY's performance, although it was great. And, if USC didn't have Bush, Fresno State would have won by 21 points. Look at VY's performance for what it is...a great performance vs. a horrible defense.

Also, please remember how good Carr was coming out of college, and beating teams like Wisconsin, Oregon State, Colorado, and putting up huge numbers against Michigan State...

REMEMBER...Carr became just the sixth quarterback in NCAA history to throw for 4,000 yards and 40 touchdowns. He had 4,839 passing yards and 46 touchdowns, both tops in the nation his senior season. Sick numbers, not to mention he was benching 400 lbs and squating 500lbs. The pro gam eis significantly different from college, so let's stay calm on the draft VY and dump Carr routine.



VY is the 1st QB to throw for over 3000 yards and rush for 1000 yards. Also Carr's record was only 18-8 while VY is 30-2 plus a national championship. VY also beat an Ohio State team in Columbus, which had never lost to a non big 10 team at home I think and hadn't lost a home game in over 30 games. VY also in that game threw for 270 and ran for 76 yards. VY did that against the #5 defense in the NCAA, that only aloud 281.3 yards and 15.2 points per game. Also LEAD the team in a comeback win in that game as well as the national championship.

Trust me, I was a Carr faithful. Defending him everytime I could but VY has proven to be a LEADER and this team needs a leader. Bob McNair has also said that the team expected more from David in the leader postion and he has yet to step up in that field.

kbourda
01-11-2006, 06:52 PM
I like VY and think he is one heck of a player, but keep in mind that Fresno State put up 42 points vs USC. Fresno's offense dominated the USC defense, so don't get too excited about VY's performance, although it was great. And, if USC didn't have Bush, Fresno State would have won by 21 points. Look at VY's performance for what it is...a great performance vs. a horrible defense.

Also, please remember how good Carr was coming out of college, and beating teams like Wisconsin, Oregon State, Colorado, and putting up huge numbers against Michigan State...

REMEMBER...Carr became just the sixth quarterback in NCAA history to throw for 4,000 yards and 40 touchdowns. He had 4,839 passing yards and 46 touchdowns, both tops in the nation his senior season. Sick numbers, not to mention he was benching 400 lbs and squating 500lbs. The pro gam eis significantly different from college, so let's stay calm on the draft VY and dump Carr routine.

Hey, great performances vs. horrible defenses can get you a Heisman.

Signed, Reggie Bush

Jack Bauer
01-11-2006, 06:58 PM
Does anyone listen to Charlie Pallilo anymore?

I do. I can't handle Rich. Rich was bearable with Charlie, but he is not now. I have no problem with Marc.

The point of Vince's performance being overrated: I can see this. Some people are blowing it out of proportion. I think this is why people are saying it is overrated. He had a great performance, but Fresno did put up more points than even Texas did. Was it a great performance? Yes. Is Vince going to be the greatest QB ever? We will have to wait and see.

I don't think anyone is saying that Vince's performance was AVERAGE.

HoustonFrog
01-11-2006, 07:04 PM
I agree and said the same thing the other day about the VY bashers. These are good kids. Hate the hype but not the player. Just for the record the original post is completely wrong. Take away what USC's defense did against Fresno and see what they did against UCLA. So they aren't horrible. Add the fact that it is the National Championship game that had 5 weeks of hype and the whole nation watching. The kid took on a team that was being mentioned in the same breath as the greatest teams ever, his coach never winning a thing, a program in a 25 year drought and with 1 minute left he made it look like a walk in the park. You are the only person I have ever heard call that overrated. Jack Pardee was on the radio because of his awards banquet and he called it one of the best games and games by a player he has ever seen. I'll leave it in the pros hands.

CaptainPatriot
01-11-2006, 07:06 PM
I like VY and think he is one heck of a player, but keep in mind that Fresno State put up 42 points vs USC. Fresno's offense dominated the USC defense, so don't get too excited about VY's performance, although it was great. And, if USC didn't have Bush, Fresno State would have won by 21 points. Look at VY's performance for what it is...a great performance vs. a horrible defense.

Also, please remember how good Carr was coming out of college, and beating teams like Wisconsin, Oregon State, Colorado, and putting up huge numbers against Michigan State...

REMEMBER...Carr became just the sixth quarterback in NCAA history to throw for 4,000 yards and 40 touchdowns. He had 4,839 passing yards and 46 touchdowns, both tops in the nation his senior season. Sick numbers, not to mention he was benching 400 lbs and squating 500lbs. The pro gam eis significantly different from college, so let's stay calm on the draft VY and dump Carr routine.



What about Ohio State this yr and Rose Bowl last yr? This was not a 1 time great performance.Plus I`m sure Brady and Montana never benched or squat that much. Or put up big numbers like Carr.They just find a way to win!

texanfan2002114
01-11-2006, 07:09 PM
What about Ohio State this yr and Rose Bowl last yr? This was not a 1 time great performance.Plus I`m sure Brady and Montana never benched or squat that much. Or put up big numbers like Carr.They just find a way to win!

Like I said before and I totally agree with you. VY is a leader and Carr is not. He may have a great arm but he is just not a leader!!

Wolf
01-11-2006, 07:12 PM
I agree and said the same thing the other day about the VY bashers. These are good kids. Hate the hype but not the player. Just for the record the original post is completely wrong. Take away what USC's defense did against Fresno and see what they did against UCLA. So they aren't horrible. Add the fact that it is the National Championship game that had 5 weeks of hype and the whole nation watching. The kid took on a team that was being mentioned in the same breath as the greatest teams ever, his coach never winning a thing, a program in a 25 year drought and with 1 minute left he made it look like a walk in the park. You are the only person I have ever heard call that overrated. Jack Pardee was on the radio because of his awards banquet and he called it one of the best games and games by a player he has ever seen. I'll leave it in the pros hands.

I agree
What gets me is UT's defense was one of the better defenses, yet couldn't stop the 2 previous heisman trophy winners ..(face it Bush got his yards, Matt got his too).. and Young outshined them by himself.. USC's coaches had to stop one player and couldn't .. UT's defense had to stop 2 players and didn't .. and white came in and made it a triple attack.. which they didn't stop him either except for the most important time.

The hype of USC being the best team ever and 2 heisman trophy winners and blablabla basically sickened me. why? all this hype and what was the point spread on that game? one time I heard it was 1 1/2 points and last I heard it was around 7 right before the game.. Hype wise it was David versus Goliath ..with VY being David.

The game comparable to the Miami versus Ohio State a few years back where no one gave the underdog a chance

HoustonFrog
01-11-2006, 07:13 PM
I do. I can't handle Rich. Rich was bearable with Charlie, but he is not now. I have no problem with Marc.

My problem with all things 610 is that they act like they woke up, read the paper and that is the extent of their sports knowledge. I trust opinions here more. I used to think Palillo was surly and added nothing but now I listen to him in the afternoon. The guy knows his stuff.

Wolf
01-11-2006, 07:14 PM
One thing I will give VY.. he didn't have Ricky Williams in the backfield or Benson back there.. he didn't have a Sloan Thomas/Roy Williams or (forgot his name) as WR on that offense like Simms or Applewhite had.

texplayer2
01-11-2006, 07:15 PM
[/B]


VY is the 1st QB to throw for over 3000 yards and rush for 1000 yards. Also Carr's record was only 18-8 while VY is 30-2 plus a national championship. VY also beat an Ohio State team in Columbus, which had never lost to a non big 10 team at home I think and hadn't lost a home game in over 30 games. VY also in that game threw for 270 and ran for 76 yards. VY did that against the #5 defense in the NCAA, that only aloud 281.3 yards and 15.2 points per game. Also LEAD the team in a comeback win in that game as well as the national championship.

Trust me, I was a Carr faithful. Defending him everytime I could but VY has proven to be a LEADER and this team needs a leader. Bob McNair has also said that the team expected more from David in the leader postion and he has yet to step up in that field.

I would take out of Carr's stat parade " Competent QB" on a decent team, Vince was just a good on a better Team. Ask his D. if he was that 30-2 without them. Carr's COLLEGE team was probably not as talented on D. hince 18-8. He came into a situation with little talent around him also. Vince hasn't had to deal with them apples yet. Leader of a team with a GOOD O-line and Defense is a lot easier than the situation he will find himself in at the NFL cellars.

tulexan
01-11-2006, 07:16 PM
Jamaal Charles is a pretty good RB. I think he might turn out to be better than Benson

HoustonFrog
01-11-2006, 07:39 PM
I would take out of Carr's stat parade " Competent QB" on a decent team, Vince was just a good on a better Team. Ask his D. if he was that 30-2 without them. Carr's COLLEGE team was probably not as talented on D. hince 18-8. He came into a situation with little talent around him also. Vince hasn't had to deal with them apples yet. Leader of a team with a GOOD O-line and Defense is a lot easier than the situation he will find himself in at the NFL cellars.

VY's D didn't do him little favors vs USC, Oklahoma St..twice.. and a few other times in his career. He had to take over most of those games. Not bashing but I don't think Carr in college would have done the same.

texanfan2002114
01-11-2006, 07:42 PM
I would take out of Carr's stat parade " Competent QB" on a decent team, Vince was just a good on a better Team. Ask his D. if he was that 30-2 without them. Carr's COLLEGE team was probably not as talented on D. hince 18-8. He came into a situation with little talent around him also. Vince hasn't had to deal with them apples yet. Leader of a team with a GOOD O-line and Defense is a lot easier than the situation he will find himself in at the NFL cellars.


VY lead his team in 6 come from behind wins, how many did Carr?? You say that Carr's team were not as good as as VY, so then my question to you is why did it take until Carr's junior season to start?? While on a better team, against better teams VY started 32 games in 2 seasons compared to Carr's 26. If Carr is so great why didn't he start sooner??? Please tell me.

Wolf
01-11-2006, 07:46 PM
VY lead his team in 6 come from behind wins, how many did Carr?? You say that Carr's team were not as good as as VY, so then my question to you is why did it take until Carr's junior season to start?? While on a better team, against better teams VY started 32 games in 2 seasons compared to Carr's 26. If Carr is so great why didn't he start sooner??? Please tell me.

all I know is he struggled and was redshirted.. then came back and played well..

texplayer2
01-11-2006, 07:46 PM
VY's D didn't do him little favors vs USC, Oklahoma St..twice.. and a few other times in his career. He had to take over most of those games. Not bashing but I don't think Carr in college would have done the same.

That why I added his O-line in the discussion. I only saw 3-4 plays where SC's defense got to Young behind his line and those were on Blitzes. He won't have that kind of time or talent in front of him. Texas recruiting class probably far outclassed Carr's during his tenure at Fresno St. He is fast and has skills, but he DID NOT win any games by himself. He had a good team built around him. Carr's numbers were without that quality.

aj.
01-11-2006, 07:46 PM
If Carr is so great why didn't he start sooner??? Please tell me. Not to butt in, but the answer to that question is because he couldn't beat out Billy Volek. Volek is at least two years older though...

Long-Spurs-Texan
01-11-2006, 07:49 PM
I never thought I would say that Trent Dilfer is the best QB out of Fresneck State...Trint Dilfer is the best QB out of Fresneck State. There, I said it.

texplayer2
01-11-2006, 07:53 PM
Not to butt in, but the answer to that question is because he couldn't beat out Billy Volek. Volek is at least two years older though...

The Stats discussed at the beginning of this thread were for his Senior season and had nothing to do with Volek that I was aware of.

texplayer2
01-11-2006, 07:58 PM
I never thought I would say that Trent Dilfer is the best QB out of Fresneck State...Trint Dilfer is the best QB out of Fresneck State. There, I said it.

Why are Fresno St. Qb's important to Carrs stats and the talent around him :rolleyes: when he was in college vs. Vince's stats and the talent around him?

aj.
01-11-2006, 08:00 PM
I didn't read the whole thread - only caught that question. But one of the reasons Carr had the odd redshirt year was that he couldn't beat out Volek after coming out of HS as a five star prospect.

texanfan2002114
01-11-2006, 09:34 PM
I didn't read the whole thread - only caught that question. But one of the reasons Carr had the odd redshirt year was that he couldn't beat out Volek after coming out of HS as a five star prospect.


He couldn't beat out Volek, who is now a back up for the last 5 years. What does that say about David??

run-david-run
01-11-2006, 09:48 PM
He couldn't beat out Volek, who is now a back up for the last 5 years. What does that say about David??
Yeah, lets hold the fact that 8 years ago David couldnt beat out Volek as ammo against him....

wrestler4life
01-11-2006, 10:29 PM
Say what you want about VY, but if he comes to the Texans and stinks it up, you will be arguing about what a stupid freakin choice it was to not get Bush. Give me a break!

Wolf
01-11-2006, 10:35 PM
Say what you want about VY, but if he comes to the Texans and stinks it up, you will be arguing about what a stupid freakin choice it was to not get Bush. Give me a break!

check this thread out.. mainly the article

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=16903

wrestler4life
01-11-2006, 10:38 PM
Very nice. I agree.

bullman
01-11-2006, 10:39 PM
I agree and said the same thing the other day about the VY bashers. These are good kids. Hate the hype but not the player. Just for the record the original post is completely wrong. Take away what USC's defense did against Fresno and see what they did against UCLA. So they aren't horrible. Add the fact that it is the National Championship game that had 5 weeks of hype and the whole nation watching. The kid took on a team that was being mentioned in the same breath as the greatest teams ever, his coach never winning a thing, a program in a 25 year drought and with 1 minute left he made it look like a walk in the park. You are the only person I have ever heard call that overrated. Jack Pardee was on the radio because of his awards banquet and he called it one of the best games and games by a player he has ever seen. I'll leave it in the pros hands.
VY is overrated, and he will be another andre ware, health shuler etc Carr is the real QB, VY will be a bust!!!!!!!!!

thunderkyss
01-11-2006, 10:48 PM
Say what you want about VY, but if he comes to the Texans and stinks it up, you will be arguing about what a stupid freakin choice it was to not get Bush. Give me a break!


It's stinking pretty bad over here now.

I only hope you give Vince 4 years, before you call him a bust.

thunderkyss
01-11-2006, 10:56 PM
check this thread out.. mainly the article

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=16903


Puh-lease......... we all agree, Reggie is a ball player. He's going to do great, where ever he goes. But he won't help us win anymore games than he helped USC win the Rose Bowl.

IF Reggie Bush is a future NFL Star by consensus, the Pete Carroll is a freeking Genius by those same standards. You can't go insulting the man because he didn't think Bush was going to get him two yards.

Now, Reggie won't help us win anymore games than we did last year.... what is he going to add 600 yards to our running game?? and 1000 yards to the passing game?? and we think he will, because of what he did in College?? But we don't think Vince will be able to do what he did in college??

Vince is the one player who can improve our running game, and our passing game, at the same time. We can leave things as is on offense, and if Vince does only a quarter of what he has in college, we will win more games. Use the rest of our picks on Defense, we will win more games.

Bush will only be able to help us, if Carr can get him the ball. Carr is having a hard time with that right now.

Wolf
01-11-2006, 11:04 PM
so Carr would have a hard time getting him the ball (bush)? and VY wouldn't?


To me the article is saying both players are going to do well and whichever one we don't pick.. the critics are going to jump out at the Texans now matter what
which is true.

zeplin
01-11-2006, 11:04 PM
This is a quote loosley translated from the New Orleans Boards.
I happen to agree with it..

I don't know what the "VY" hype is all about.
First off, in the Rose Bowl, Texas was playing a USC defense Not a NFL caliber defense by any means and not that great. USC LB's played very poorly in my opinion. The TE for Texas was wide open all the time and most of VY's receptions were high percentage passes. In the second half of the game he didn't fair as well against USC's defense passing-wise. He had to do alot more running as was apparent with his 200 yards rushing and 3 TD's. VY isn't that fast really, and in the NFL, everyone runs as fast as him. He also won't have" 5-6 seconds" in the pocket to look over a defense before he decides to run the ball, he'll have more like 2 seconds tops before he's sacked, throws an INT, tries to run for his life, etc. AND in the NFL, you have the cream of former college crop playing against you, not USC's defense. Though his passing has become better over the last two years, and from the beginning of this season to the end, he's still no where near that great of a passer. To succeed at the NFL level as many of you think he is capable. Hyping him up as if he was a NFL caliber QB. He has more to learn. VY is more of an athlete than a passer, and not nearly as good an athlete as Michael Vick is, and we've seen how many Championships Vick has won so far. I think Leinert is more of a NFL ready QB ML has come from USc playing in an NFL style offense. but I'm still for trading VY for more draft picks.
Re: Vince Young, no thanks

:homer:

ronaldod1
01-11-2006, 11:05 PM
Can any VY supporters tell me what makes him an assured NFL star? I do not accept he is a proven winner because David Green has the best QB winning percentage in NCAA history and was a third round pick, and will not likely ever start for an NFL team. Eric Crouch single handedly led his team to a national champtionship game his senior year (with far less talent than VY has around him) and he isnt even in the league. There are many many more stories just like those two. His running will be essentially negated at the NFL level. He'll have good scrambling abilities when he finds an opportunity, but there are linebackers in the league who run the 40 as fast as he does. There will be no effective QB draws. Mike Vick's running cannot be used as an example because he is much faster than VY (and has a stronger more accurate arm). I would classify his passing abilities as untested. His situation reminds me a lot of Ken Dorsey did at Miami. The guy has ages to throw the ball to wide open receivers, and an extremely good Defense takes care of a lot of those wins for him. He's a great college player and I was infinitely impressed by what he did in Pasadena, but absolutely not worth the risk. In my opinion you trade down and get a lot of players because this team needs a lot of help.

Wolf
01-11-2006, 11:05 PM
I don't know what the "VY" hype is all about.
First off, in the Rose Bowl, Texas was playing a USC defense Not a NFL caliber defense by any means and not that great. USC LB's played very poorly in my opinion. The TE for Texas was wide open all the time and most of VY's receptions were high percentage passes. In the second half of the game he didn't fair as well against USC's defense passing-wise. He had to do alot more running as was apparent with his 200 yards rushing and 3 TD's. VY isn't that fast really, and in the NFL, everyone runs as fast as him. He also won't have" 5-6 seconds" in the pocket to look over a defense before he decides to run the ball, he'll have more like 2 seconds tops before he's sacked, throws an INT, tries to run for his life, etc. AND in the NFL, you have the cream of former college crop playing against you, not USC's defense. Though his passing has become better over the last two years, and from the beginning of this season to the end, he's still no where near that great of a passer. To succeed at the NFL level as many of you think he is capable. Hyping him up as if he was a NFL caliber QB. He has more to learn. VY is more of an athlete than a passer, and not nearly as good an athlete as Michael Vick is, and we've seen how many Championships Vick has won so far. I think Leinert is more of a NFL ready QB ML has come from USc playing in an NFL style offense. but I'm still for trading VY for more draft picks. hopefully Jay Cutler with our second.
Re: Vince Young, no thanks

:homer:
Insert Reggie Bush's name into where VY's name is

Wolf
01-11-2006, 11:10 PM
what i don't understand is everyone is so quick to say VY isn't good because of USC's defense... It wasn't one game that VY had amazing stats..

Bush .. why don't we take away is "heisman game" away from him against fresno state because fresno doesn't have a good enough defense..


I am for the Texans to trade down if the offer is right.. I just don't understand why it is so easy for everyone to find faults with these 2 great college players games..

Bush is one hit away from having his "great" speed to average speed and then where is he?
VY also

for the record if P-buc could tackle .. he runs a sub 4.3 so Bush can't run much faster than that.. and D-rob is pretty close to that also.

AustinJB
01-11-2006, 11:13 PM
Now, Reggie won't help us win anymore games than we did last year.... what is he going to add 600 yards to our running game?? and 1000 yards to the passing game?? and we think he will, because of what he did in College?? But we don't think Vince will be able to do what he did in college??

Vince is the one player who can improve our running game, and our passing game, at the same time. We can leave things as is on offense, and if Vince does only a quarter of what he has in college, we will win more games. Use the rest of our picks on Defense, we will win more games.

Bush will only be able to help us, if Carr can get him the ball. Carr is having a hard time with that right now.

I agree. To hit on your reference that Bush will have more reception yards than rushing yards: I've heard Bush fans say that in the NFL, he will be a lot like Westbrook in the Eagles offense.

While that is great and everything, and he's a great player, they utilize him like that so much b/c they don't have a running game. And how is that supposed to alleviate the pressure off of our O-line and Carr. Carr doesn't have time to throw the ball anyway, just b/c he has one more option doesn't mean that he will all of a sudden have time to throw. I thought one of the main complaints about the few pass plays that we did have this past year, was that they were just dump-offs to DD??!!

Also, while Westbrook is a good player, does anyone think he is worthy of a #1 pick? I sure don't.

E-Dawg
01-11-2006, 11:17 PM
I like VY and think he is one heck of a player, but keep in mind that Fresno State put up 42 points vs USC. Fresno's offense dominated the USC defense, so don't get too excited about VY's performance, although it was great. And, if USC didn't have Bush, Fresno State would have won by 21 points. Look at VY's performance for what it is...a great performance vs. a horrible defense.

Also, please remember how good Carr was coming out of college, and beating teams like Wisconsin, Oregon State, Colorado, and putting up huge numbers against Michigan State...

REMEMBER...Carr became just the sixth quarterback in NCAA history to throw for 4,000 yards and 40 touchdowns. He had 4,839 passing yards and 46 touchdowns, both tops in the nation his senior season. Sick numbers, not to mention he was benching 400 lbs and squating 500lbs. The pro gam eis significantly different from college, so let's stay calm on the draft VY and dump Carr routine.
What you have to realize is Bob Mcnair has done his part and the Texans have been a profitable franchise as a business, but every other part of this organization from top to bottom has been an absolute failure!!! Sure there are bright spots. For instance Andre Johnson and Dunta Robinson are very good players. Domanick Davis and Jerome Mathis were steals. But with those 4 pickups, I can name about 20 bad moves the organization has made to put them in a deep hole (flipping Aaaron Glenn for Philip Buchanon, flipping Jamie Sharper for Morlon Greenwood, trading to get Jason Babin, Tony Boselli, not being able to get Orlando Pace, Todd Wade, passing on Derrick Johnson, passing on Jason Witten for that Michigan tight end that's broken and never played a down, multiple wasted picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds over the first 4 years, and on and on and on (Casserly has an excuse for all of this garbage). I for one also came to the conclusion David Carr is not a leader or a winner a long time ago, regardless of the mitigating circumstances. I am a huge football fan, but I will not give them the benefit of the doubt forever. And yes, me, my 600,000 UT alumni and all of the Houstonians that enjoyed cheering for him at Madison and Texas demand they pick him or we won't ever cheer for this franchise. The last thing they gave us to cheer for was the friggin' Cowboys game 4 years ago. This is coming from a season ticket holder. Bottom Line, you don't draft Vince Young, I will not cheer for this team! If you want to call it holding the franchise hostage, fine, whatever it takes. In the end, drafting him is the only smart business decision, as if somebody like me, who has been extremely loyal to every team I've ever been a fan of is willing to walk away, there are 100s of 1000s of others just like me. They don't get to choose. They lost their privileges by making bad decisions for 4 years. Bob Mcnair save the franchise, take Young, and create another potential America's team or lose me/us forever!!!

Mr. White
01-11-2006, 11:22 PM
Bush .. why don't we take away is "heisman game" away from him against fresno state because fresno doesn't have a good enough defense..


I couldn't agree more. I was planning on presenting this point myself. Glad I'm not the only one who sees it that way. I've always thought RB was a lot of hype just like all the VY haters on this board think about VY. IMO, if we don't take Vince, we DEFINITELY need to trade down. We don't need RB anymore than we don't need VY.

texplayer2
01-11-2006, 11:31 PM
I agree. To hit on your reference that Bush will have more reception yards than rushing yards: I've heard Bush fans say that in the NFL, he will be a lot like Westbrook in the Eagles offense.

While that is great and everything, and he's a great player, they utilize him like that so much b/c they don't have a running game. And how is that supposed to alleviate the pressure off of our O-line and Carr. Carr doesn't have time to throw the ball anyway, just b/c he has one more option doesn't mean that he will all of a sudden have time to throw. I thought one of the main complaints about the few pass plays that we did have this past year, was that they were just dump-offs to DD??!!

Also, while Westbrook is a good player, does anyone think he is worthy of a #1 pick? I sure don't.

The only time I remember our offense even being successful was when he had more Options. The first two years, he had a TE Billy Miller, who was fairly successful and helped keep some pressure off Carr. The second year we got AJ and the sack totals went down. Since we have gotten back to AJ being our only threat the sack totals are arising again. A+B =C ergo we need more threats. The more a defense has to take care of the less effective they will be overall. Could get Carr a second or two more a few more times a game to make the plays and the passes we need.

edo783
01-11-2006, 11:32 PM
[quote=E-Dawg] This is coming from a season ticket holder. Bottom Line, you don't draft Vince Young, I will not cheer for this team! If you want to call it holding the franchise hostage, fine, whatever it takes. In the end, drafting him is the only smart business decision, as if somebody like me, who has been extremely loyal to every team I've ever been a fan of is willing to walk away, there are 100s of 1000s of others just like me. /quote]


GOOD. Best thing that could happen is for fans like you to leave. Don't let the door hit ya in the backside! Go worship Vince where ever he winds up at.

Youngstown Colt
01-11-2006, 11:33 PM
This thread is simply the backlash from the VY hype that hit this board after this game. After watching the game, I immediately told people that he will get incredibly hyped, and people will hate him for it. People will then start to try to tear him down and pick apart his accomplishments.

His rose bowl performance, all hype aside, was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen. I'm not sure how that can be denied.

People are gonna talk about Vince like he's Chuck Norris, but the opposition has to learn to keep things in perspective too.

AustinJB
01-11-2006, 11:34 PM
I am a huge football fan, but I will not give them the benefit of the doubt forever....Bottom Line, you don't draft Vince Young, I will not cheer for this team! If you want to call it holding the franchise hostage, fine, whatever it takes. In the end, drafting him is the only smart business decision, as if somebody like me, who has been extremely loyal to every team I've ever been a fan of is willing to walk away, there are 100s of 1000s of others just like me. They don't get to choose. They lost their privileges by making bad decisions for 4 years. Bob Mcnair save the franchise, take Young, and create another potential America's team or lose me/us forever!!!

Before anyone even says anything like "you're not a true fan" or "blah, blah, blah" realize this: people that are football fans in Houston have had a long, miserable history, I think all would agree that is true. People aren't going to be as loyal to this team as they were to the Oilers b/c they've only been around for 4 years. The decisions that the front office makes has to get better or they will lose fan support.

And whether or not everyone agrees with this perspective, it doesn't matter. Although you may feel like these people are giving up their loyalties too soon, that doesn't matter either. You don't even have to like these people. But the fact remains that from a marketing standpoint and from Bob McNair's standpoint, he DOES have to listen to this kind of outcry from the fans b/c it will affect him and the team financially. He MUST take the majority of the fans consensus seriously.
:ok:

Mr. White
01-11-2006, 11:54 PM
Before anyone even says anything like "you're not a true fan" or "blah, blah, blah" realize this: people that are football fans in Houston have had a long, miserable history, I think all would agree that is true. People aren't going to be as loyal to this team as they were to the Oilers b/c they've only been around for 4 years. The decisions that the front office makes has to get better or they will lose fan support.

And whether or not everyone agrees with this perspective, it doesn't matter. Although you may feel like these people are giving up their loyalties too soon, that doesn't matter either. You don't even have to like these people. But the fact remains that from a marketing standpoint and from Bob McNair's standpoint, he DOES have to listen to this kind of outcry from the fans b/c it will affect him and the team financially. He MUST take the majority of the fans consensus seriously.
:ok:

..Not to mention, it would be a great gesture of good faith to the AVERAGE Houston/ Texas football fan (=people that don't necessarily hang out on these MB's.)

Before anyone says "good faith gestures don't win Super Bowls"... save it. I'm aware. This is an aspect of the argument that CANNOT be ignored whether you think it should or shouldn't. There will always be a local conception that the Texans blew it by letting VY go.

And, on a personal note, I wouldn't mind it happening so my local Austin affiliate doesn't pull the Texans again for another Colts blowout. We didn't see the Texans play here for what I'm guessing was the last 4 games (give or take.) That never happens with the Cowboys games in these parts.

texplayer2
01-11-2006, 11:58 PM
Before anyone even says anything like "you're not a true fan" or "blah, blah, blah" realize this: people that are football fans in Houston have had a long, miserable history, I think all would agree that is true. People aren't going to be as loyal to this team as they were to the Oilers b/c they've only been around for 4 years. The decisions that the front office makes has to get better or they will lose fan support.

And whether or not everyone agrees with this perspective, it doesn't matter. Although you may feel like these people are giving up their loyalties too soon, that doesn't matter either. You don't even have to like these people. But the fact remains that from a marketing standpoint and from Bob McNair's standpoint, he DOES have to listen to this kind of outcry from the fans b/c it will affect him and the team financially. He MUST take the majority of the fans consensus seriously.
:ok:

The Majority of fans don't speak out period. They will sit and watch the game as presented by the ownership and complain or cheer according to what happens in the game. It is usually a smaller portion of the fan base that calls into radio stations and MB's as an outlet for their opinions.

AustinJB
01-12-2006, 12:00 AM
And, on a personal note, I wouldn't mind it happening so my local Austin affiliate doesn't pull the Texans again for another Colts blowout. We didn't see the Texans play here for what I'm guessing was the last 4 games (give or take.) That never happens with the Cowboys games in these parts.

No joke. I was pissed when they started doing that. Especially when I was missing the St. Louis game b/c we were winning.....but then I saw the highlights right after the game and was kinda glad that I didn't have to witness that. LOL.

Texans86
01-12-2006, 12:15 AM
To those who will give up on this team when we don't draft Vince Young, see you later, you won't be missed. I was able to go through a 2-14 season and still support my team. It can't get much worse than that outside of Detoit. I realize one player cannot take us from the doghouse to the Super Bowl, I wish you could see the same thing.

Edit: I'm sorry but I just looked up and saw the number of E-dawgs posts and had to chuckle. I realize you might be a die hard Texans fan who read the forum for a long tie before posting, but it looks like you joined after the Rose Bowl, and might be quitting after day day. I find humor in that.

AustinJB
01-12-2006, 12:38 AM
To those who will give up on this team when we don't draft Vince Young, see you later, you won't be missed. I was able to go through a 2-14 season and still support my team. It can't get much worse than that outside of Detoit. I realize one player cannot take us from the doghouse to the Super Bowl, I wish you could see the same thing.

Edit: I'm sorry but I just looked up and saw the number of E-dawgs posts and had to chuckle. I realize you might be a die hard Texans fan who read the forum for a long tie before posting, but it looks like you joined after the Rose Bowl, and might be quitting after day day. I find humor in that.

First of all, I do realize that one player is not going to take us from the doghouse to the SB. I think that most of us realize that; we're just debating about who would be the biggest piece of the puzzle.

And BTW, I AM a die-hard Texans fan. Was a die-hard Oilers fan since I was a kid and I stood by them when they were breaking my heart year after year. Even followed them, like many did, when they went to Tennessee and barely lost the SB...that still hurt. But once the Texans org. began, I am loyal to them. I attend about 4-5 games a year with my uncle who has season tickets in Sec. 116. I've also been a LH fan since I was a kid.

Yes, I did just join the forum after the Rose Bowl, but I won't be quitting after draft day b/c there are some very interesting points and rumors that are all over the MB. I never even really knew about the forum b/c I was able to get enough information regarding the team elsewhere. But when VY declared, and Bush is expected to, I wanted to see what all the FANS thought, instead of what I was hearing on ESPN and FSN. I just wanted to see if there were others that felt the same as me in that if they don't take VY they'll be making a mistake and again, the Houston franchise, will be breaking my heart.

Even if they are making a mistake and VY goes elsewhere and is successful, I'll still be a Texans fan. I just don't want to have to look back and say "What were we thinking, we could've had him and again, Casserly blew it"
:ok:

Texans86
01-12-2006, 12:46 AM
First of all, I do realize that one player is not going to take us from the doghouse to the SB. I think that most of us realize that; we're just debating about who would be the biggest piece of the puzzle.

And BTW, I AM a die-hard Texans fan. Was a die-hard Oilers fan since I was a kid and I stood by them when they were breaking my heart year after year. Even followed them, like many did, when they went to Tennessee and barely lost the SB...that still hurt. But once the Texans org. began, I am loyal to them. I attend about 4-5 games a year with my uncle who has season tickets in Sec. 116. I've also been a LH fan since I was a kid.

Yes, I did just join the forum after the Rose Bowl, but I won't be quitting after draft day b/c there are some very interesting points and rumors that are all over the MB. I never even really knew about the forum b/c I was able to get enough information regarding the team elsewhere. But when VY declared, and Bush is expected to, I wanted to see what all the FANS thought, instead of what I was hearing on ESPN and FSN. I just wanted to see if there were others that felt the same as me in that if they don't take VY they'll be making a mistake and again, the Houston franchise, will be breaking my heart.

Even if they are making a mistake and VY goes elsewhere and is successful, I'll still be a Texans fan. I just don't want to have to look back and say "What were we thinking, we could've had him and again, Casserly blew it"
:ok:

I appreciate your candor and hope you do stay with the board. Though we don't agree on Vince, I am glad to be around other fans who want this team to succeed even without Vince. What I was pointing out was that some of the names recently added to this board will only be seen making posts or adding posts to the "We should have drafted Vince" posts, and rarely seen on other discussion topics. I hope you wish, as I do, that the Texans managemnt make the best decision for the team, and if that is going with Vince then I support the team. Good luck to management on this decision, I have a feeling they are going to need all the support they can get in the coming months.

AustinJB
01-12-2006, 12:51 AM
I hope you wish, as I do, that the Texans managemnt make the best decision for the team, and if that is going with Vince then I support the team. Good luck to management on this decision, I have a feeling they are going to need all the support they can get in the coming months.

That I agree with. We have differing views of what the best decision is, but I think we all have the Texans best interest in mind. And honestly, whichever way they go, nothing will be PROVEN for a while IMO.

AustinJB
01-12-2006, 01:07 AM
All:VY had decent stats in a poor passing conference. Heck, even The Dream could pass for 300+ yards per game in the Big 12.

C'mon. That's the kind of comment that makes all the VY supporters feel like they have to negate Bush's abilities as well. I could say the same thing about Bush in his poor defensive Pac-10.

Bottom line is, they have both put up impressive numbers. Who will mean the most to their respective team is the real question.

Without VY, Texas would not have beat USC or won some of their other games for that matter. Take away Bush from USC and you still have Leinart and White, two other 1st rounders. I think that's why Bush put up a lot of his gaudy numbers, he had plenty of help. Not that VY didn't, but as an opposing defense every week there opponents were faced with different situations. Opponents facing USC knew that they had to worry about Bush, White, and Leinart. Opponents facing UT knew that they had to focus on stopping VY and yet he was still unstoppable.

bigtex77
01-12-2006, 06:28 AM
"Possibly the greatest talent to come out of college from the QB position ever." - "Unbelievable raw talent, has great upside." - "There may never be another one like him." - Vince Young, right? Wrong. All of these statemants wre made about Michael Vick prior to the 2001 NFL Draft, don't tell me there will never be another Vince Young type, because there will be.

Jack Bauer
01-12-2006, 06:34 AM
VY had decent stats in a poor passing conference. Heck, even The Dream could pass for 300+ yards per game in the Big 12.

Vince Young had the number one passer efficiency rating in the country during the regular season and finished with the number three passer efficiency rating after the bowl season. This only qualifies as DECENT? I am not biased, as I have not made up my mind. This is a ridiculous statement. Period.

LCOOL
01-12-2006, 06:50 AM
Vince Young had the number one passer efficiency rating in the country during the regular season and finished with the number three passer efficiency rating after the bowl season. This only qualifies as DECENT? I am not biased, as I have not made up my mind. This is a ridiculous statement. Period.
Agree!

touttail
01-12-2006, 06:58 AM
Does anyone listen to Charlie Pallilo anymore?


NOPE!!!!!!!!

Bobby 119C

Kaiser Toro
01-12-2006, 07:55 AM
I like VY and think he is one heck of a player, but keep in mind that Fresno State put up 42 points vs USC. Fresno's offense dominated the USC defense, so don't get too excited about VY's performance, although it was great. And, if USC didn't have Bush, Fresno State would have won by 21 points. Look at VY's performance for what it is...a great performance vs. a horrible defense.

Also, please remember how good Carr was coming out of college, and beating teams like Wisconsin, Oregon State, Colorado, and putting up huge numbers against Michigan State...

REMEMBER...Carr became just the sixth quarterback in NCAA history to throw for 4,000 yards and 40 touchdowns. He had 4,839 passing yards and 46 touchdowns, both tops in the nation his senior season. Sick numbers, not to mention he was benching 400 lbs and squating 500lbs. The pro gam eis significantly different from college, so let's stay calm on the draft VY and dump Carr routine.

I am going to give an educated guess that you have never played in a championship game at any level of sports. The spotlight is pretty hot even in Junior High and gets exponentially hotter as you go up each level. This was the National Championship game with 100,000 fans watching at USC's home stadium with tens of millions watching on TV. You are more than welcome to share your opinion, but to ding VY for a great performance against a team that had not lost in 34 games is ludicrous. He just did what no one else ws able to against the two time defending national champions.

As far as Bush is concerned, he was not the only one that ran over FSU's defense.

thunderkyss
01-12-2006, 08:37 AM
I couldn't agree more. I was planning on presenting this point myself. Glad I'm not the only one who sees it that way. I've always thought RB was a lot of hype just like all the VY haters on this board think about VY. IMO, if we don't take Vince, we DEFINITELY need to trade down. We don't need RB anymore than we don't need VY.


That's the crux of the issue right there. Plain and simple. If our organization isn't garunteeing that we are going to use the first pick to draft Bush(which hopefully is just part of their strategy to boost the value of the pick), then I for one, wouldn't be here, pushing for Vince. I would think it would be dumb to pass on Vince, but if we are doing the right thing, and building a football team, let's trade down. But if were building a media magnet, give me Vince.

thunderkyss
01-12-2006, 08:39 AM
The only time I remember our offense even being successful was when he had more Options. The first two years, he had a TE Billy Miller, who was fairly successful and helped keep some pressure off Carr. The second year we got AJ and the sack totals went down. Since we have gotten back to AJ being our only threat the sack totals are arising again. A+B =C ergo we need more threats. The more a defense has to take care of the less effective they will be overall. Could get Carr a second or two more a few more times a game to make the plays and the passes we need.

Can you name the recievers and tight ends playing for New England?? I can't. How bout Detroit?? They've picked offensive threats for the last three years.

thunderkyss
01-12-2006, 08:44 AM
To those who will give up on this team when we don't draft Vince Young, see you later, you won't be missed. I was able to go through a 2-14 season and still support my team. It can't get much worse than that outside of Detoit. I realize one player cannot take us from the doghouse to the Super Bowl, I wish you could see the same thing.

Edit: I'm sorry but I just looked up and saw the number of E-dawgs posts and had to chuckle. I realize you might be a die hard Texans fan who read the forum for a long tie before posting, but it looks like you joined after the Rose Bowl, and might be quitting after day day. I find humor in that.


Let's say you take one player off a team. Someone with real accomplishments, someone knocking down records, and moving up the all time list with every game he plays. A ProBowler, A superBowl Contender. Someone like Drew Bledsoe. He got cut from not one team, but two. In his place, put in an unproven Rookie.... Do you think that one player can make a difference now??


I don't think Vince will get us a SuperBowl, but he'd get us out of the Doghouse.

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 08:47 AM
As far as Bush is concerned, he was not the only one that ran over FSU's defense.

As for VY, everybody else torched the Aggies through the air, except UT who nearly lost to the back-up QB. So whats the excuse for VY?

Houston Fan
01-12-2006, 08:47 AM
I like VY and think he is one heck of a player, but keep in mind that Fresno State put up 42 points vs USC. Fresno's offense dominated the USC defense, so don't get too excited about VY's performance, although it was great. And, if USC didn't have Bush, Fresno State would have won by 21 points. Look at VY's performance for what it is...a great performance vs. a horrible defense.

So I assume you think the 30+ wins VY racked up in college were also against "horrible" defenses? It comes down to getting the Win and how you perform under pressure. You really think Carr is as consistant as VY? Heck, I'd be content if we took Leinart and got rid of Carr. You really think Carr has the leadership qualities that VY or Leinart would bring?

Jack Bauer
01-12-2006, 08:49 AM
Can you name the recievers and tight ends playing for New England?? I can't. How bout Detroit?? They've picked offensive threats for the last three years.

So, you have never heard of Deion Branch or Ben Watson, eh? For Detroit, you haven't heard of Roy Williams or Marcus Pollard? Not that I would have used Detroit for your example, however.

exclude
01-12-2006, 09:03 AM
I wouldn't say VY performance in the RB was overrated cause it was spectacular. But, I can guess from that performance in the Rose Bowl that those 'SC boys in the secondary probably aren't making it to the NFL.

And lets not forget, Pete Carroll blundered his way to a loss. C'mon, no spy on Young??? Vick has one, maybe two containment guy on him at all times and yet USC did not respect Young enough not to put a spy on him???

Stupid USC Coaching + Great Game from VY = VY Hype

texplayer2
01-12-2006, 09:13 AM
Can you name the recievers and tight ends playing for New England?? I can't. How bout Detroit?? They've picked offensive threats for the last three years.

You are generalising our problems. New England has pretty good guys at those positions, but they also have Commercial Stars on their line and a good defense with Star linebacker back. Detroit is closer to our ability levels now, but they have a QB that the team and ownership isn't high on anymore, and have become 1-dimensional. All that talent at reciever and no one to get it there, which leaves the running back.(One good Option). I believe if Carr doesn't improve with more options this year, he would be in the same spot as Harrington is now. But as with Detroit, you have to give him a shot with some threats.

HoustonFrog
01-12-2006, 09:17 AM
VY is overrated, and he will be another andre ware, health shuler etc Carr is the real QB, VY will be a bust!!!!!!!!!

Great response chuck full of facts to what my post was. Please stop your pure hatred. It is lame. David, go home and work on your throwing motion.

Kaiser Toro
01-12-2006, 09:24 AM
As for VY, everybody else torched the Aggies through the air, except UT who nearly lost to the back-up QB. So whats the excuse for VY?

Do not need any excuses as it was a win along the way to a National Championship at a storied rivals stadium. If you are saying that a win at home for USC against FSU is equal to the UT/A&M rivalry, then I am not quite sure how we can have dialogue any longer.

HoustonFrog
01-12-2006, 09:27 AM
Do not need any excuses as it was a win along the way to a National Championship at a storied rivals stadium. If you are saying that a win at home for USC against FSU is equal to the UT/A&M rivalry, then I am not quite sure how we can have dialogue any longer.

I agree. Why are people so heck bent on tearing up everyone of his games and saying that they show how bad he is?The bottom line is wins, something this franchise doesn't have enough us. The ironic thing is that many of thses people are Carr supporters. Why don't we go through his 4 year career and college and we will see some things too. We'll start with Cleveland, end of 2004.:) If you don't want the guy, fine, just stop hating because of the media hype. He is a good kid, just as Bush is. People take it way too personally.

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 11:06 AM
Do not need any excuses as it was a win along the way to a National Championship at a storied rivals stadium. If you are saying that a win at home for USC against FSU is equal to the UT/A&M rivalry, then I am not quite sure how we can have dialogue any longer.

I full well know how heated the UT/A&M rivalry is, my dad and my grandfather are both UT grads; and I was told point blank I could go to any school in America and my parents would help me pay unless I went ot A&M.

But VY's performance sucked against a team a) he should have been way up to play, seeing it is a rival and the Heismen still hung in the balance and b) it was a game against an absolutly horrid, i think the worst in NCAA, pass defense.

Those were my points. Look at Bush against his team's instate rival. He only had 24 carries for 260 yards and 2 TDs. I would say he had a much better game against a tougher D, then VY did against A&M. And both were against instate rivals.

That was my point. And I think were past saying "Hey he won the game" cause right now wins mean little in evaluating a guy for an NFL program. ANd both guys were on teams that won, and if that was the only arguement , Bush has won more games then Vince.

thunderkyss
01-12-2006, 12:35 PM
So, you have never heard of Deion Branch or Ben Watson, eh? For Detroit, you haven't heard of Roy Williams or Marcus Pollard? Not that I would have used Detroit for your example, however.


The point is that Deion Branch, and Ben Watson aren't burning up the highlight reals, I don't know, but I doubt they were 1st Round picks, they won't be shoe ins for the HOF, and their jersey won't be sported by rappers on MTV. All this to say you can get to the Big Dance, without big name offensive weapons, which is in reference to the post I quoted.

The Reference to Detroit is the exact opposite. They've picked offense threats with their 1st round pick three years running, and Harrington still has no one to throw the ball to.

And lastly I'll add, Harrington got two years to perform under similar circumstances that Carr has had, but it's time for Harrington to move on.

thunderkyss
01-12-2006, 12:43 PM
You are generalising our problems. New England has pretty good guys at those positions, but they also have Commercial Stars on their line and a good defense with Star linebacker back. Detroit is closer to our ability levels now, but they have a QB that the team and ownership isn't high on anymore, and have become 1-dimensional. All that talent at reciever and no one to get it there, which leaves the running back.(One good Option). I believe if Carr doesn't improve with more options this year, he would be in the same spot as Harrington is now. But as with Detroit, you have to give him a shot with some threats.


None of the recievers on that team have shown they are any better than Armstrong, Gaffney, Bradford, or Mathis. But you're saying it's time for Harrington to go because he can't get the ball to them.... Yet Carr deserves another year?? Detroit is a better team, when the more mobile Quarterback is on the field....... Houston would be too.

If we do improve our O-Line, and give David a fair shot... and he doesn't get the job done, if we are making another excuse for him at the end of next year, I'd feel much better about this team, if we had Young sitting on our bench, instead of having to look to another mediocre pick that might do well, or hope that a team releases a good Quarterback, or try to defend a has been washup, that should have been out of the league years ago.

thunderkyss
01-12-2006, 12:47 PM
I full well know how heated the UT/A&M rivalry is, my dad and my grandfather are both UT grads; and I was told point blank I could go to any school in America and my parents would help me pay unless I went ot A&M.

But VY's performance sucked against a team a) he should have been way up to play, seeing it is a rival and the Heismen still hung in the balance and b) it was a game against an absolutly horrid, i think the worst in NCAA, pass defense.

Those were my points. Look at Bush against his team's instate rival. He only had 24 carries for 260 yards and 2 TDs. I would say he had a much better game against a tougher D, then VY did against A&M. And both were against instate rivals.

That was my point. And I think were past saying "Hey he won the game" cause right now wins mean little in evaluating a guy for an NFL program. ANd both guys were on teams that won, and if that was the only arguement , Bush has won more games then Vince.


I think you're right. That overrated USC offense could only muster a 3 point lead in the last 6 minutes of the fourth quarter against that week UT offense who had so much trouble against A&M. That whole USC, 34(39??) straight wins, two time defending National Championship team is way overrated.

Huge
01-12-2006, 12:52 PM
I full well know how heated the UT/A&M rivalry is, my dad and my grandfather are both UT grads; and I was told point blank I could go to any school in America and my parents would help me pay unless I went ot A&M.

But VY's performance sucked against a team a) he should have been way up to play, seeing it is a rival and the Heismen still hung in the balance and b) it was a game against an absolutly horrid, i think the worst in NCAA, pass defense.

Those were my points. Look at Bush against his team's instate rival. He only had 24 carries for 260 yards and 2 TDs. I would say he had a much better game against a tougher D, then VY did against A&M. And both were against instate rivals.

That was my point. And I think were past saying "Hey he won the game" cause right now wins mean little in evaluating a guy for an NFL program. ANd both guys were on teams that won, and if that was the only arguement , Bush has won more games then Vince.
UCLA's tougher D ranked 116th in the country in rush defense. Texas A&M ranked 117th in pass defense. Most impressive edge to Bush. :rolleyes:

Or how 'about you look at a player's overall season instead of just one game to define his abilities? Would it be fair to point out Bush's performance against Washington (51 rushing yards, 18 receiving yards...Washington - 94th in total defense) and say he sucks because of it? No, it wouldn't be fair. Because the majority of Bush's games have shown he's got the ability...just as Young's does.

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 12:58 PM
UCLA's tougher D ranked 116th in the country in rush defense. Texas A&M ranked 117th in pass defense. Most impressive edge to Bush. :rolleyes:

But Bush performed in that game, with his team's title hopes on the line, and the Heismen on the line.

No...wait point conceeded, both D's sucked.

Or how 'about you look at a player's overall season instead of just one game to define his abilities? Would it be fair to point out Bush's performance against Washington (51 rushing yards, 18 receiving yards...Washington - 94th in total defense) and say he sucks because of it? No, it wouldn't be fair. Because the majority of Bush's games have shown he's got the ability...just as Young's does.

Agreed. Just sick of the post Rose Bowl love fest for VY.

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 01:02 PM
I think you're right. That overrated USC offense could only muster a 3 point lead in the last 6 minutes of the fourth quarter against that week UT offense who had so much trouble against A&M. That whole USC, 34(39??) straight wins, two time defending National Championship team is way overrated.

YES! USC was overrated. Add to that they one have ONE BCS championship, which despite what USC and the AP says is the one that matters. And Auburn stood a real good chance to beat them last year, for that one.

USC ran a pro style D with very few pro caliber players. There D was overrated.

USC WAS/IS OVERATED!!!

Do not believe teh hype form ESPN.

Bullpen Drew
01-12-2006, 01:06 PM
Sudds, who do you have to beat to not be considered overrated...Pass that crack this way...

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 01:15 PM
Sudds, who do you have to beat to not be considered overrated...Pass that crack this way...

Me?

How about AUBURN, LSU who won the BCS title the year you claim to have won it, UT maybe. BEcasue running the table in the Pac-10 isn't that impressive.

The media hype around USC this year was insane, from the Gameday crew's blatant love to the series of could USC beat this great team from the past spots on ESPN. This year's team was not as good as last years, nor was at as good as the team from two seasons back.

T-New41
01-12-2006, 01:20 PM
One thing to remember. Although USC's defense was a bit weak, they did lead the nation in creating turnovers. Fresno put up 42 points on them, but the also threw 5 picks that game.

Vince had 0 picks on 40 attempts vs the #1 turnover defense in the nation.

Reggie Bush put up decent numbers vs a very fast Texas defense that keyed in on stopping Bush (still not impressed w/ Bush as a kick returner). White was better suited to run the ball against a defense like TX.

Vince Young's performance was NOT overrated, by any STRETCH of the imagination. It is ridiculus to even suggest such.

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 01:25 PM
Vince Young's performance was NOT overrated, by any STRETCH of the imagination. It is ridiculus to even suggest such.

Im not saying that he didn't play a great game. Althought that is a bit weak of a description.

BUT USC as a team was overated, but tha doen't distract from what VY did. And trust me I loved every second of it.

T-New41
01-12-2006, 01:47 PM
Im not saying that he didn't play a great game. Althought that is a bit weak of a description.

BUT USC as a team was overated, but tha doen't distract from what VY did. And trust me I loved every second of it.

I agree the USC team was severely overated by the mediots. Their secondary was very good, but the LB's were terrible and the D-line was pretty bad too. When I saw an interview w/ the USC starting LB on ESPN, I knew they had no chance of tackiling Vince Young.

There are other factors to consider too however. The amount of pressure to perform in that game was huge. I would imagine the type of pressure could not be too far off from that of the superbowl.

I think it is a very important intangible to consider how one performs under pressure. And you really can tmeasur that at the Combine.

MorKnolle
01-12-2006, 01:59 PM
I agree the USC team was severely overated by the mediots. Their secondary was very good, but the LB's were terrible and the D-line was pretty bad too. When I saw an interview w/ the USC starting LB on ESPN, I knew they had no chance of tackiling Vince Young.

There are other factors to consider too however. The amount of pressure to perform in that game was huge. I would imagine the type of pressure could not be too far off from that of the superbowl.

I think it is a very important intangible to consider how one performs under pressure. And you really can tmeasur that at the Combine.

I think UT outcoached USC too. USC kept sitting back in zones to contain Vince and let them throw the ball underneath all day, then they tried heavy blitzes and gave Vince big lanes to run thru rather than putting some pressure on buy keeping a spy on Vince or playing any man coverage. USC's offensive playcalling also was not very good for most of the game.

Huge
01-12-2006, 05:08 PM
Im not saying that he didn't play a great game. Althought that is a bit weak of a description.

BUT USC as a team was overated, but tha doen't distract from what VY did. And trust me I loved every second of it.
As a team, USC was overrated (any team would be considering where they were being rated). But just as there are examples of how bad their defense sucks (Fresno State), there are also examples of how well their defense can play:

Oregon (18th in total offense) - 262 yards total offense, 13 points
Washington State (8th in total offense) - 284 yards total offense, 13 points
UCLA (23rd in total offense) - 275 yards total offense, 19 points

See what I mean? Compared to past USC defenses, they don't measure up. But they performed pretty well from time to time this year.

And in college football, if you hope to play for the MNC, the title is on the line every week...not just when it's against your rival. And the title was most certainly on the line January 4th and who would you say stepped up bigger in that game...Vince or Reggie?

Big B Texan Fan
01-12-2006, 05:19 PM
Agreed. Just sick of the post Rose Bowl love fest for VY.
Well if VY would've never declared, then you'd be accused of being involved in the Bush lovefest while the rest of us are screaming for a trade down.

Wharton
01-13-2006, 12:45 AM
My only real problem isn't even with him, it is just I don't want to wait 2-3 years minimum for him to get to the level that David Carr is at right now. I'd rather win right now than wait a few years for someone who may or may not become the player people expect him to and a quarterback that turns out to be a bust is much more damaging to a team than a RB or WR that turns out to be a bust.

The flaw in your analysis is this - VY is a better quarterback then DC is right now. DC is in his 4th year and he is still is not throwing the ball out of bounds to avoid a sack. If DC hasn't learned to do this by now, what makes you think that DC will ever be anything but a subpar QB. And, on top of DC being a poor quarterback, we simply do not have the players we need to compete. This team is 3 years away from being completitive with or without VY. It will never be competitve with DC.

texplayer2
01-14-2006, 11:22 AM
I am a huge football fan, but I will not give them the benefit of the doubt forever. And yes, me, my 600,000 UT alumni demand they pick him or we won't ever cheer for this franchise. The last thing they gave us to cheer for was the friggin' Cowboys game 4 years ago. This is coming from a season ticket holder. Bottom Line, you don't draft Vince Young, I will not cheer for this team! If you want to call it holding the franchise hostage, fine, whatever it takes. take Young, and create another potential America's team or lose me/us forever!!!

Out of 600,000 UT ALUM how many are Cowboy fans? At the end of this rant you are talking about making us America's team? Sounds like you are already a Cowboys fan.:twocents:

texplayer2
01-14-2006, 11:56 AM
YES! USC was overrated. Add to that they one have ONE BCS championship, which despite what USC and the AP says is the one that matters. And Auburn stood a real good chance to beat them last year, for that one.
.

You have to beat the best to be the best. THe BCS two years ago pitted #2 vs.#3. #1 Team and National Champs beat Michigan in the Rose. They beat Auburn that year 23-0 when they were ranked #1. Last year #1 faced #2 and Auburn has no claims. This year #2 Texas beat #1 USC to claim the title. All the other stuff is:crying: . USC as a team this year was every bit as good as Texas, they just lost by three points. They could actually be one of the best teams of all time. The only real comparisons can be made with teams in this new BCS mess. In the past Great teams might not have faced the best competion even in bowl games due to Conference affiliations.

DynoMoxie
01-14-2006, 01:04 PM
Look at USC's schedule and Texas' schedule. Look at Matt Leinart's passing stats and Vince Young's passing stats (including completion percentage) all the stats. USC's known for its passing although it's always had great runningbacks. Texas' known for its running game although its had some very good receivers. I love all those people out there who continue to try to discredit Vince's ability to throw the ball. They're going to be crying though when Vince is making their NFL team eat it. I just hope those people aren't Texan fans. There are going to be a lot of people out there kicking themselves when Vince AGAIN proves all those doubting his abilities and potential wrong. I won't be one of those people.

TreWardTxn
01-14-2006, 07:43 PM
For everyone who wants to call Young's Rose Bowl performance underrated that's your opinion, but you can not then turn around and endorse Reggie Bush for the number one pick. Young was by far the most formidable weapon on his team and the Trojans could not stop him on the other hand, Bush had an all-time performer in Leinart at QB and a first round draft pick in White carrying the heavy load for him and he couldn't lift his team to victory. if Bush couldn't be the X-factor for a team full of superstars, then what reason do we have to believe he will provide the Texans with that winning edge. The bottom line is, you got with the leader, the winner and find somebody who your players will believe in...