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View Full Version : The blind hope is starting again!


gtexan02
01-11-2006, 05:17 PM
Ahh! I don't care if you love VY or you love Bush, but please realize that at the beginning of the disaster this year, everyone realized how badly we need role players (OL, DL, LB) and no one mentioned us needing huge playmakers. Now that we have the potential to draft some big names who may or may not make an immediate impact, people are already validating themselves with statements like "New coaching will solve our OL problems"

If I hear "THey just need 1 more season to gel under the zone blocking scheme" or anything like that, Im going to freak out

HJam72
01-11-2006, 05:23 PM
I think they just need one more season to gel under the new blocking scheme. Then they'll be fine. :)

All I can really say, seriously, is that, IF we don't get Kubiak, I want this zone blocking scheme gone yesterday and, yes, I'd like to trade down.

texanmojo
01-11-2006, 05:30 PM
All I keep reading about is that Kubiak is as good as here. We just need to wait until the Broncos lose.

Mr. White
01-11-2006, 05:30 PM
Nice thought. Rather than "taking off your (insert color here) tinted glasses," look at the situation in black and white to start with. We were 2-14 last year. Regardless of what the company line says, we won't make the playoffs next year. Make decisions that will make this team a juggernaut for the long term.

geofb
01-11-2006, 05:37 PM
If I hear "THey just need 1 more season to gel under the zone blocking scheme" or anything like that, Im going to freak out

That's very true. The "give it time to gel" argument wore thin pretty fast. Or how about another favorite blast from the past. Anyone not predicting a playoff run in 2005 being labeled a "Chicken Little". Unfortunately, the sky did actually fall this time!

Grid
01-11-2006, 05:44 PM
what would people prefer to hear? Everyone on the Oline needs to be released and replaced with new players?

This isnt Madden.. you dont... CANT..do that.

If you dont think that keeping 3 of our current starters.. and getting a couple of new players and a new coaching staff is enough to fix our Oline..then you are just going to have to deal with it.. Cause that is about as drastic a change as we are going to get.

Grid
01-11-2006, 05:48 PM
That's very true. The "give it time to gel" argument wore thin pretty fast. Or how about another favorite blast from the past. Anyone not predicting a playoff run in 2005 being labeled a "Chicken Little". Unfortunately, the sky did actually fall this time!

Yah when you predict the worse every offseason.. you are bound to be right eventually. Anyone who claims it was "superior knowledge" is kidding themselves though.

As for the time to gel arguement. I would agree that it wore thin if it wasnt for the FACT that it was true. Any good Oline is going to be a bad Oline first. An Oline needs time to gel and get used to the players next to them. Its a fact.. not an excuse.

ACtually.. when we bring in some new talent for this oline.. and a new coaching staff.. they might need time to gel too. We may not see a real noticable improvemen in them for half of next season. Who knows.

You can hope and wish that our Oline could be replaced by probowlers before the 2006 season starts.. but its not going to happen.. and I see no point in damning the entire line to sucktitude when it is entirely possible that they could become a very solid line with a bit more help.

eric138
01-11-2006, 05:50 PM
what I want to hear more of is the word "execute". Hopefully Kubiak never uses this reason.

geofb
01-11-2006, 05:58 PM
As for the time to gel arguement. I would agree that it wore thin if it wasnt for the FACT that it was true.

The Texans own coaching staff basically admitted it wasn't a fact since they played fruit basket shuffle with the o-line after the season had started. They knew they were in the soup big time and were grasping at straws trying to fix the problem. The line had more than enough time to gel and it didn't. Are you suggesting we should bring back Wand to start for a few more years so he will have adequate gel time?

Texan Asylum
01-11-2006, 05:58 PM
I think we should refer to the previous regime as "Hoover, ElectroLux and Co." cause they sure did SUCK.:yahoo:

Grid
01-11-2006, 06:03 PM
The Texans own coaching staff basically admitted it wasn't a fact since they played fruit basket shuffle with the o-line after the season had started. They knew they were in the soup big time and were grasping at straws trying to fix the problem. The line had more than enough time to gel and it didn't. Are you suggesting we should bring back Wand to start for a few more years so he will have adequate gel time?

you are confusing the issue.

Any Oline needs time to gel.. that is a fact. But you dont just throw bums out there and wait for them to gel and become a good Oline. You first have to have adequate talent on the line.

We do have SOME talent on the line but need a bit more. Not a whole new line.. just a couple more players..and some better depth.

the shuffling last season wasnt our coaching staff saying "there is no such thing as a line needing time to gel" it was them saying "this is not a talented enough line".

when we get new talent on the line..and the season starts next year.. expect to hear the "time to gel" arguement again. Because that is all you can say to someone who doesnt understand that you have to be patient with a young Oline.. and comes on here raving about how they all suck and we should have signed [insert 40 year old probowler here]

TheOgre
01-11-2006, 06:12 PM
I'm with you, but I have come to realize that trading down would be a huge PR nightmare. If this team doesn't take Bush or VY, there will be a lot of fans that tune them out. Football is a business first and foremost. That is why I wouldn't be surprised to see VY in steel blue next year. Not my preference, but it seems to be the fan's choice.

geofb
01-11-2006, 06:17 PM
Any Oline needs time to gel.. that is a fact. But you dont just throw bums out there and wait for them to gel and become a good Oline. You first have to have adequate talent on the line.



Grid, we might agree after all, not sure. I agree with you that an o-line needs some time to gel. However, as you said, if you throw bums out there you can give it an eternity to gel and it still won't gel. The frustration many felt this time last year is that the Texans admitted publicly during the offseason that a top priority was to improve the o-line. Then we promptly did nothing personnel wise to improve the o-line. Many on here could see the disaster brewing with the o-line. Even after it became painfully obvious our o-line sucked because we had some "bums" on it (Wand for sure), many on this board stuck with the sorry excuse that the line just needed more time to gel. Even the coaching staff finally threw in the towel and said "gel my backside, this o-line stinks" and then started trying every combination imaginable to fix the problem. So I think the "time to gel" argument wore thin because many people on this board stuck with that tired maxim long after it became obvious that gel time was not the root of the problem. Some of the players were the problem.

exclude
01-11-2006, 06:19 PM
I'm with you, but I have come to realize that trading down would be a huge PR nightmare. If this team doesn't take Bush or VY, there will be a lot of fans that tune them out. Football is a business first and foremost. That is why I wouldn't be surprised to see VY in steel blue next year. Not my preference, but it seems to be the fan's choice.

Well, I don't know about Houston Fans...

Houston Fans, I think, are split 70-30 for drafting VY.

All other fans in the country are split 60-40 for drafting Bush.

Listen my fellow Houston Texans, you've done this for 14 years now. It should be quite easy:

Go Bush in 06!!! :) :redtowel:

Big B Texan Fan
01-11-2006, 06:24 PM
All I keep reading about is that Kubiak is as good as here. We just need to wait until the Broncos lose.
I wouldn't mind waiting until after the SB. Hope they win it too.

Imagine the headlines (if we draft VY)
Both hometown guys come home after winning it all at their current level as well as getting paid millions.

Runner
01-11-2006, 06:24 PM
The Texans own coaching staff basically admitted it wasn't a fact since they played fruit basket shuffle with the o-line after the season had started. They knew they were in the soup big time and were grasping at straws trying to fix the problem. The line had more than enough time to gel and it didn't. Are you suggesting we should bring back Wand to start for a few more years so he will have adequate gel time?

I think you are a year too late to bring up Wand's name as a problem. Heck, last off-season it was "replace Wand and everything will be all right". Well, they did and it wasn't.

Wand is not nearly so bad as he made out to be. Is he as good as Orlando Pace? No. Is he better than Victor Riley? Absolutely.

The line is a team game. The best LG/LT combination we had available this year was Pitts/Wand, and it was never used. I'm not saying that Pitts is a bad tackle. I'm saying that Pitts/Wand is better than McKinney/Pitts or Brown/Pitts.

Keep this in mind too. Wand went 1 on 1 with everyone last year. Pitts had constant inside help on Freeney and even some other lesser DE's. Against Seattle he had a large amount of tight end help. Had we run a similar double team scheme more last year with Pitts and Wand this wouldn't even be a topic for debate.

Coaching was far more responsible for the pathetic line play than any player.

Grid
01-11-2006, 06:31 PM
I can agree with that geofb. Though I also think you have to give every player that we put on the line a chance, and not just immediatly jump to the "this isnt an improvement" arguement. You never know how a player is going to perform in a different scheme, or for a different team. Foley and the Chargers are a good example of this.

geofb
01-11-2006, 06:31 PM
Houston Fans, I think, are split 70-30 for drafting VY.

All other fans in the country are split 60-40 for drafting Bush.



You know, you bring up a good point. A GM and owner probably hates situations like this. Every now and then an inferior player will come along that is a hometown favorite. Pretty much the rest of the country realizes the wise choice is to take the best player which is the non-hometown player but the locals want their hometown favorite. The GM and owner know they are in for trouble.

If this were any city other than Houston, it would be a no-brainer. After all, VY isn't even the best QB in the draft, let alone the best player. But we unfortunately have the hometown favorite issue to cloud things.

Fortunately, from what I've read it appears the Texans plan to make the wise choice and kick the beloved hometown favorite to the curb. It's the right move.

Grid
01-11-2006, 06:33 PM
personally id say this board is more 50-50 ..with half in favor of VY, and the other in favor of Bush or a Trade Down.

As for the rest of the NFL community.. from what ive seen it is more like 80-20 or 90-10 in favor of Bush or a Trade Down over VY.


not that this has a lot of bearing on the coversation or anything :)

Nighthawk
01-11-2006, 06:36 PM
Regardless of what the company line says, we won't make the playoffs next year.

A tough year coming, for sure. Me, I'd feel a lot better facing it if I knew Vince Young was under contract and preparing to take over the QB slot.

exclude
01-11-2006, 06:38 PM
A tough year coming, for sure. Me, I'd feel a lot better facing it if I knew Vince Young was under contract and preparing to take over the QB slot.

Yes, for Tennesse, since Reggie's going to lining up at RB for the Texans.:)

geofb
01-11-2006, 06:47 PM
Yes, for Tennesse, since Reggie's going to lining up at RB for the Texans.:)

I agree. It would be great for VY to go to Tennessee. If they force him to be a pocket passer he will fail big time. If they let him run like a sandlot QB he will get broken. This is the NFL, not some USC phantom defense. He may end up with one or two decent years before someone lays the big one on him but that's all. That will pretty much fix the Titans' wagon for the next decade. Unfortunately, VY might fall in the draft like a rock the way that QB that eventually was picked up by GB did last year. Personally, I hope the VY PR machine rides strong enough for the Titans to make the mistake of picking him up.

Double Barrel
01-11-2006, 07:19 PM
I'm with you, but I have come to realize that trading down would be a huge PR nightmare. If this team doesn't take Bush or VY, there will be a lot of fans that tune them out. Football is a business first and foremost. That is why I wouldn't be surprised to see VY in steel blue next year. Not my preference, but it seems to be the fan's choice.

PR be damned, most football fans in Houston would understand that these decisions are best for the team.

Fairweather fans (aka the majority of Houstons sports fans) can jump back on the bandwagon when we have a winning team. Nothing new under the sun, it's just the way this city roots for it's teams.

I'll support whatever decision(s) the front office makes, simply because I've chosen to be a Texans fan for life. But I don't expect the same understanding and/or loyalty from most of my fellow Houstonians these days.

Wolf
01-11-2006, 07:27 PM
I'm with you, but I have come to realize that trading down would be a huge PR nightmare. If this team doesn't take Bush or VY, there will be a lot of fans that tune them out. Football is a business first and foremost. That is why I wouldn't be surprised to see VY in steel blue next year. Not my preference, but it seems to be the fan's choice.


I agree with that, yet I remember being upset that the Oilers drafted Steinkuhler,Munchak,Mathews in 1st round .. I couldn't believe they went that route (of course I was a teenager).. yet that served them well for many years afterward

Big B Texan Fan
01-11-2006, 07:31 PM
personally id say this board is more 50-50 ..with half in favor of VY, and the other in favor of Bush or a Trade Down.

As for the rest of the NFL community.. from what ive seen it is more like 80-20 or 90-10 in favor of Bush or a Trade Down over VY.

The rest of the NFL community agreed with us drafting Carr too.

Grid
01-11-2006, 07:39 PM
the also agreed with AJ and Dunta.

dat_boy_yec
01-11-2006, 07:49 PM
Ok, back to the topic at hand. I think that the line we have does have some potential. Wand, Pitts, and maybe Weigert would be serviceable at tackles. They are not huge and their footwork can improve so they would fit in well with the zone blocking. Oh snap I can't remember the rookie centers name right now, I think it starts with an H, anyways I think he would fit in well with the blocking scheme. IMO I think our weakest position on the line is at guard. If we hire Kubiak and he stays with Denver and Atl. drafting philosophy then I don't see us drafting OL until the third round. I would like to see them get 2 guards and a tackle this offseason.

Grid
01-11-2006, 07:54 PM
I like Hodgdon and I think he COULD possibly start.. he looked good.. but I dont want to risk it.. and I dont want to see Todd Washington or McKinney replace him if he cant.

For that reason..id like to see us sign LeCharles Bentley. I think it should be our #1 FA priority.

With Bentley at Center, Wiegert at Guard, and Pitts at tackle.. that leaves 2 spots open..a guard and a tackle. Wand or Wade may be able to hold down the RT spot... though its not a sure thing.

So that puts our drafting needs at one guard, and possibly one tackle. Davin Joseph and Daryn Colledge are my picks. Both fit the Denver style of Oline.

Runner
01-11-2006, 08:36 PM
For that reason..id like to see us sign LeCharles Bentley. I think it should be our #1 FA priority.


I agree. I think Bentley is the single most important addition we could make to the line this year. The past two seasons we have been very poor with the standard rush and blitz up the middle. Solidifying the center position would go a very long way to solving our protection problems by helping create a reliable pocket. This enables the QB to step up and THAT helps the tackles.

zeplin
01-11-2006, 09:02 PM
Ahh! I don't care if you love VY or you love Bush, but please realize that at the beginning of the disaster this year, everyone realized how badly we need role players (OL, DL, LB) and no one mentioned us needing huge playmakers. Now that we have the potential to draft some big names who may or may not make an immediate impact, people are already validating themselves with statements like "New coaching will solve our OL problems"

If I hear "THey just need 1 more season to gel under the zone blocking scheme" or anything like that, Im going to freak out


I am impessed and releaved to see that there is a few people in houston that understand that a successfull offense begins with a good OL.Why just because we have the #1 pick everyone wants to junk the plan of building the OL and draft the next potential Bary Sanders or Michael Vick. Just for the record :homer: Both Vick and Sanders were unable to translate incredable athletic abilities into superbowl success.

cuppacoffee
01-11-2006, 10:09 PM
I think you are a year too late to bring up Wand's name as a problem. Heck, last off-season it was "replace Wand and everything will be all right". Well, they did and it wasn't.

Wand is not nearly so bad as he made out to be. Is he as good as Orlando Pace? No. Is he better than Victor Riley? Absolutely.

The line is a team game. The best LG/LT combination we had available this year was Pitts/Wand, and it was never used. I'm not saying that Pitts is a bad tackle. I'm saying that Pitts/Wand is better than McKinney/Pitts or Brown/Pitts.

Keep this in mind too. Wand went 1 on 1 with everyone last year. Pitts had constant inside help on Freeney and even some other lesser DE's. Against Seattle he had a large amount of tight end help. Had we run a similar double team scheme more last year with Pitts and Wand this wouldn't even be a topic for debate.

Coaching was far more responsible for the pathetic line play than any player.

Thank You...I could not have said it better myself. Pendry very obviously had some secret agenda against Wand. Pendry is gone and Wand is still here. Nuff said.

Tulip
01-11-2006, 10:13 PM
Ahh! I don't care if you love VY or you love Bush, but please realize that at the beginning of the disaster this year, everyone realized how badly we need role players (OL, DL, LB) and no one mentioned us needing huge playmakers. Now that we have the potential to draft some big names who may or may not make an immediate impact, people are already validating themselves with statements like "New coaching will solve our OL problems"

If I hear "THey just need 1 more season to gel under the zone blocking scheme" or anything like that, Im going to freak out

Why do I always feel like I'm missing something? Is the #1 pick the Texans' ONLY pick in the draft?

They have 3 more picks by #66. We have plenty of room for role players. This team needs to pretend like it's NEVER going to have the #1 pick again and take advantage of this draft position now.

edo783
01-12-2006, 01:14 AM
Why do I always feel like I'm missing something? Is the #1 pick the Texans' ONLY pick in the draft?

Yes, I am afraid you are missing the point. The idea is to get MORE than just the #1 pick. Still would have a 1st round pick along with Having multipul picks in rounds 2-4 in some sort of order and that would help a lot at a lot of positions AND would very likely provide additional picks next year. The really sad thing is EVERYONE has known for the entire life of the team that the core was not of NFL quality and yet...NOTHING has been substantivly done about it. We now have the opportunity to fix what has been wrong with the team for 4 years much quicker than if we don't bargin out of the #1..

Texans86
01-12-2006, 01:29 AM
Has anyone else heard that teams are built in the 3rd-6th rounds? Playmakers are useful, but teams win at this game. Look at the past Super Bowl winners and they have a couple big names, but a lot of no names that played big. If there was only some way we could pick up more draft picks in the middle rounds, I'd be pretty happy. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Grid
01-12-2006, 01:38 AM
I honestly think we need another playmaker more than we need more picks in the 3rd-6th round.

AJ is getting all the attention on offense.. Bush would(could) give us another player that defenses have to gameplan around. When you have a receiver that you cant take your eyes off of.. and an RB that you cant take your eyes off of.. that is alot of places for the defense to be watching..and that makes everything work better.

If we must have more picks. trade our 2nd for a pick in the mid second, and an extra 3rd. some big talent is gonna slip out of the 1st round.. and someone will want to trade up to get him.

Texans Horror
01-12-2006, 04:44 AM
Because we went 2-14, we are blessed with the no. 1 pick. This is a great opportunity to pick up another impact player, which the Texans need, and Young or Bush will likely be a healthy boon to the team. However, I think this forces the Texans to look to free agency for line help, which is fine if we can get the quality player we need. I don't think we need a complete overhaul on the line, but it is clear to me that some positions (i.e., center) need new players. I used to think Eslinger would be the solution, but I think he will be gone before we can get to him.

J-Storm
01-12-2006, 05:02 AM
Has anyone else heard that teams are built in the 3rd-6th rounds? Playmakers are useful, but teams win at this game. Look at the past Super Bowl winners and they have a couple big names, but a lot of no names that played big. If there was only some way we could pick up more draft picks in the middle rounds, I'd be pretty happy. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Yeah ask the Patriots FO to draft for us, or the Colts, or the Steelers, they seem to have a bit more idea than our FO does. And they don't always have to have the biggest names on the board (the Patriots more so)!

Double Barrel
01-12-2006, 11:43 AM
For that reason..id like to see us sign LeCharles Bentley. I think it should be our #1 FA priority.

No doubt. He would be an awesome addition. He's an unrestricted free agent in March, and he's very unhappy with the Saints organization (and even some of the players). He'll definitely be someone that wants out of New Orleans, and if we play our cards right *cough*$$$*cough*, we could add a young player that could set a strong foundation for our o-line.

Pray that Casserly sees him and doesn't screw it up, though.

Ihategeeks
01-12-2006, 11:52 AM
Same statements, new team.
Both with no future.

Enjoy your 6-10 season, I know I love em.

tsip
01-12-2006, 12:38 PM
"Its a fact.. not an excuse" Grid

No, it's not a fact, as many teams win all the time with 'patchwork' OL.

MorKnolle
01-12-2006, 12:49 PM
Our OLine obviously needs a lot of help, a new OL coach and better offensive system will help, but we still need to bring in some new players too. One great OL (usually a LT) is all fine and dandy, but an OLine is only as strong as its weakest player, so having one or two decent/good OLinemen (Pitts is good, Wiegert is pretty good for another year) isn't going to hack it, look at Arizona as an example (Leonard Davis is their only decent OLineman). Getting Walter Jones and Orlando Pace as our bookend OTs would really help on pass protection, but if our interior line is still as crappy as it is now, then we will still get burned on blitzes up the middle. We need an all-round solid OL, not just the 1.5 good players we have now and add one other 2nd round guy.

Texans86
01-12-2006, 02:47 PM
I live in Austin and didn't get one of the Texans games and instead got the San Diego/Indianopis game. I watched as San Diego ripped through the amazing Colts offensive line and put Manning on his back. Amazing how Manning (yes the same Manning who broke the season touchdown record last year) had a lot of trouble that game. It does a lot for a quarterback to be able to sit in the pocket for more than a second to pass the ball. I still laugh at the quick pass idea that the coaches had last year when they didn't fix the offensive line.
Dom: "So we have a crappy OL, what should we do?"
Pendry: "Here's what you do, put a bull horn next to Dave, and blow it three seconds after he snaps it. It'll do wonders for this team."
Dom: "You would be an amazing offensive coordinator"