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View Full Version : "IT" - The difference between VY and Carr


The Dream
01-11-2006, 03:41 PM
Now this isn't just another thread praising VY, and crapping on Carr.......this is the main difference between these 2 players....I like to call it, the "IT" factor......Like I've mentioned before David is a nice going, classy, family guy....now while this may be good traits to have as a person, when you're the "leader" of your team it might not be the best thing.......I think everyone can agree (even Carr supporters), that David has never shown that fire after losing Sunday after Sunday.....it's usually the same old easy going, smiling QB after each game, even if they got crushed.....now as a leader of your team, I expect a guy to have a nasty, disgusting look on his face....why???.....not because he's a bad sport or because he's too immature to handle a loss....because he's a leader, and damnit, that's what leaders do..........Now lets take a look at VY........After losing out to Reggie Bush for the Heisman he was angry, disgruntled, perhaps even a little depressed.....so what did Vince do, first he displayed his displeasure to the national media, saying that he let his University, Family, and even the city of Houston down.....Vince used losing the Heisman, as fuel for the fire.......he said to himself (and in various articles) that he WANTED to prove everyone wrong, by going out at the Rose Bowl and playing fantastic........that he did, and after the game he even chanted "who's the heisman".....now some may say this is cocky, but it ain't cocky if you can back it up........when it comes down to it, we can argue all day about Carr not having a line, and having bad coaching as an excuse for his average play.....and those things are good excuses....but one thing we can't argue is that Carr does not have, what Vince has.....and that's not foot speed, or reading a defense, it's "IT".......Hakeem Olajuwon had "IT", when David Robinson was handed the MVP trophy in the 95 WCF, Hakeem went out and flat out embarrassed D Rob throughout the series......Michael Jordan had "IT" when he was accused of being a one man show, who would never win titles.....we all know how that turned out.....the bottom line is that we can argue all day, about the pros and cons of each QB, but when it comes down to it, Vince Young has "IT" and David doesn't.

Feel free to discuss

aggiechance
01-11-2006, 03:45 PM
Vince Young hasn't played in the pros. David Carr has never had enough time to execute plays behind his o-line.

I will stand behind Carr until he proves he can't lead the team. He is the face of our team.

That is all.

The Dream
01-11-2006, 03:48 PM
Vince Young hasn't played in the pros. David Carr has never had enough time to execute plays behind his o-line.

I will stand behind Carr until he proves he can't lead the team. He is the face of our team.

That is all.

No offense but that post really had nothing to do with my post....this isn't about executing plays or Vince not playing in the pros, this is about the "IT" factor.

tulexan
01-11-2006, 03:54 PM
A lot of people have confidence and appear to be great leaders when they are in college. The NFL is much different.

Texan Asylum
01-11-2006, 03:56 PM
Vince Young hasn't played in the pros. David Carr has never had enough time to execute plays behind his o-line.

I will stand behind Carr until he proves he can't lead the team. He is the face of our team.

That is all.
I believe the man was trying to say "You can have IT in Grade school and Jr high, but IT takes on a whole new meaning when you step onto the Highschool grounds. Not to diminish your fine post, but perhaps VY needs to have tasted what DC has before we compare the IT factor between them.

Bobo
01-11-2006, 04:01 PM
Now this isn't just another thread praising VY, and crapping on Carr.......this is the main difference between these 2 players....I like to call it, the "IT" factor......Like I've mentioned before David is a nice going, classy, family guy....now while this may be good traits to have as a person, when you're the "leader" of your team it might not be the best thing.......I think everyone can agree (even Carr supporters), that David has never shown that fire after losing Sunday after Sunday.....it's usually the same old easy going, smiling QB after each game, even if they got crushed.....now as a leader of your team, I expect a guy to have a nasty, disgusting look on his face....why???.....not because he's a bad sport or because he's too immature to handle a loss....because he's a leader, and damnit, that's what leaders do..........Now lets take a look at VY........After losing out to Reggie Bush for the Heisman he was angry, disgruntled, perhaps even a little depressed.....so what did Vince do, first he displayed his displeasure to the national media, saying that he let his University, Family, and even the city of Houston down.....Vince used losing the Heisman, as fuel for the fire.......he said to himself (and in various articles) that he WANTED to prove everyone wrong, by going out at the Rose Bowl and playing fantastic........that he did, and after the game he even chanted "who's the heisman".....now some may say this is cocky, but it ain't cocky if you can back it up........when it comes down to it, we can argue all day about Carr not having a line, and having bad coaching as an excuse for his average play.....and those things are good excuses....but one thing we can't argue is that Carr does not have, what Vince has.....and that's not foot speed, or reading a defense, it's "IT".......Hakeem Olajuwon had "IT", when David Robinson was handed the MVP trophy in the 95 WCF, Hakeem went out and flat out embarrassed D Rob throughout the series......Michael Jordan had "IT" when he was accused of being a one man show, who would never win titles.....we all know how that turned out.....the bottom line is that we can argue all day, about the pros and cons of each QB, but when it comes down to it, Vince Young has "IT" and David doesn't.

Feel free to discuss

If Vince Young was from USC, you wouldn't even be having this discussion. Carr proved in 2004 that he could do the job. This year was a total meltdown involving every facet of the game and it is those many faceted integracies of the team that need to be fixed -- and that won't happen by burning a #1 overall on positions you are already strong at. It's irrelevant if Young is or isn't better than Carr. The fact is that Carr, if given a good supporting cast, is good enough to win and thus there is no need to draft either Young or Bush, for that matter. Get Carr the supporting cast.

The Dream
01-11-2006, 04:02 PM
No matter the situation if you're losing or winning, you either have the "IT" factor or you don't.......The Lakers were horrible last year, but Kobe Bryant still had that "IT" factor.....to be honest when you're down, I think that's when you're really showing what you're made of.


The fact is that Carr, if given a good supporting cast, is good enough to win

that's your opinion, not a fact.


If Vince Young was from USC, you wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Dude I'm a Seminole for life when it comes to college football......I could care less where Vince is from, all I know is I think dude is a special talent and I want him on my home team.

It's irrelevant if Young is or isn't better than Carr.

LOL.....why is it irrelevant?...I think it's VERY reletive.

Double Barrel
01-11-2006, 04:06 PM
To keep things in perspective, though, many players have "IT" in college but are complete flops in the pros. Andre Ware, Eric Crouch, Danny Wuerffel, Rashaan Salaamm, Jason White, Chris Weinke, Ron Dayne, Ty Detmer...just to name a few Heisman winners that were busts in the NFL. They definitely had some form of "IT" in the college ranks, though.

Not comparing any of the above examples to Vince Young. But rather pointing out that a great college career does not necessarily guarantee any measure of success in professional football.

Hervoyel
01-11-2006, 04:08 PM
"IT" factor? Please! This is another argument that takes one guys "apples" experiences and compares them to another guys "oranges" accomplishments and then concludes that one of them (The guy they are in favor of) has "IT" but the other one (who they want replaced) doesn't.

"IT" is another imaginary scale that they can compare their hero to Carr on because all we have right now are some stats, which you can't directly compare because of the disparity between the Pro and College game, and a bunch of opinions.

Nobody is going to deny Vince Young a Heisman trophy every week. He's not going to turn some kind of percieved insult to his advantage for the duration of his career. For that matter Hakeem wasn't like the monster you saw destroy David Robinson for the vast majority of his career either. This is an excellent example of taking one performance (or in the case of Hakeem & Robinson a brief series of performances) far out of context and misinterpreting the results. Michael Jordan didn't put on a decade long display of "IT" when he finally won titles, he got a team around him which beat the hell out of trying to do it alone.

Next?

Mr. White
01-11-2006, 04:09 PM
Not to slam Carr (even though I'm sure someone will take it that way,) but a better option has presented itself now. When your team goes 2-14 and is the perennial laughingstock of the NFL, you don't "right the ship." You burn it.

When VY first started at UT, there was lots of outcry about how all he could do was run...he couldn't pass...can't read defenses. And, to an extent, they were right. He put the work in, watched film with the OC and got better. He got so much better, he even.... well, you know the rest of the story.

It's not like this is another Bucky Richardson (no offense, Ags. I was all for him when the Oilers got him. I still think he would've fared better in a diffent system.) He's proved the naysayers wrong by adapting and excelling.

Texan Asylum
01-11-2006, 04:10 PM
If you compare on equal terms, college being equal, Carr demonstrated the IT factor quite well if I recall. Awards proving the point. Whether he still has IT, and IT hasn't been knocked out of him, will be yet to be seen this next season. IMO

exclude
01-11-2006, 04:14 PM
something about "IT"

OK, look we know hes got that and much more over Carr.

But can he help the Texans next year??? No, he will probably sit.

Can Bush help next year??? Yes, barring injury, he will definitely help.

tulexan
01-11-2006, 04:15 PM
Not to slam Carr (even though I'm sure someone will take it that way,) but a better option has presented itself now. When your team goes 2-14 and is the perennial laughingstock of the NFL, you don't "right the ship." You burn it.

When VY first started at UT, there was lots of outcry about how all he could do was run...he couldn't pass...can't read defenses. And, to an extent, they were right. He put the work in, watched film with the OC and got better. He got so much better, he even.... well, you know the rest of the story.

It's not like this is another Bucky Richardson (no offense, Ags. I was all for him when the Oilers got him. I still think he would've fared better in a diffent system.) He's proved the naysayers wrong by adapting and excelling.


I don't think that we are a perennial laughing stock. Our record was 7-9 last year and that was the third year of our existence. We were a laughing stock this year but we have already made major changes by firing the coaching staff.

The Dream
01-11-2006, 04:16 PM
"IT" factor? Please! This is another argument that takes one guys "apples" experiences and compares them to another guys "oranges" accomplishments and then concludes that one of them (The guy they are in favor of) has "IT" but the other one (who they want replaced) doesn't.

"IT" is another imaginary scale that they can compare their hero to Carr on because all we have right now are some stats, which you can't directly compare because of the disparity between the Pro and College game, and a bunch of opinions.

Nobody is going to deny Vince Young a Heisman trophy every week. He's not going to turn some kind of percieved insult to his advantage for the duration of his career. For that matter Hakeem wasn't like the monster you saw destroy David Robinson for the vast majority of his career either. This is an excellent example of taking one performance (or in the case of Hakeem & Robinson a brief series of performances) far out of context and misinterpreting the results. Michael Jordan didn't put on a decade long display of "IT" when he finally won titles, he got a team around him which beat the hell out of trying to do it alone.


This isn't about accomplishments, it's about having the fire and anger.....which David doesn't have.....it's imaginary?!?!?!? :rolleyes: .......I'm sorry but I don't think I was imagining VY leading his team in Highschool and in College....and if you noticed my post wasn't even about stats, because I totally stayed away from that.......dude this isn't about misinterpreting anything, it's about showing that fire and desire to win......you ask every guy on that longhorn team who there leader is (even before the Rose Bowl) and they would tell you Vince......you know what would happen if you asked the Texans players that same question...........crickets would start chirping.......put aside the accomplishments, stats, excuses, and look at the different attitudes in between these two players.


OK, look we know hes got that and much more over Carr.

But can he help the Texans next year??? No, he will probably sit.

Can Bush help next year??? Yes, barring injury, he will definitely help.


Dude this isn't just about next year, either if we draft Reggie or Vince, this will not be a playoff team next year.....there is a future beyond just "next year"

The Dream
01-11-2006, 04:20 PM
To keep things in perspective, though, many players have "IT" in college but are complete flops in the pros. Andre Ware, Eric Crouch, Danny Wuerffel, Rashaan Salaamm, Jason White, Chris Weinke, Ron Dayne, Ty Detmer...just to name a few Heisman winners that were busts in the NFL. They definitely had some form of "IT" in the college ranks, though.


This is true, but I don't think any of those guys are as talented as Vince.

tulexan
01-11-2006, 04:22 PM
Didn't some people here criticize David Carr for celebrating after scoring a touchdown against the Rams this season?

Which one is it, does he show too much emotion or not enough?

Hookem Horns
01-11-2006, 04:23 PM
I will stand behind Carr until he proves he can't lead the team. He is the face of our team.

That is all.

Well, I guess it's time to sit down then. While Carr is still unproven as far as being a skilled player, he has already proven that he can't lead.

Sitting at 0-3 "This isn't a must win game, but it is a must play well game." said Carr

In Vince We Trust
01-11-2006, 04:24 PM
in addition to the outrageous, unbelievable physical abilities of vince (carr is not in his class), vy has the will and confidence to put the entire team (players, coaches and fans) on his shoulders and lead them to victory in clutch situations - the players, coaches and fans at madison and texas know this. carr? NO.

exclude
01-11-2006, 04:25 PM
This is true, but I don't think any of those guys are as talented as Vince.

Man, its like fighting fire with gasoline...:challenge

The Dream
01-11-2006, 04:28 PM
Man, its like fighting fire with gasoline

You're insane if you think any of those guys had as much talent or potential as VY, when they came outta college.

rmartin65
01-11-2006, 04:29 PM
People place to much value in "IT". Football is a team sport.

titan hater
01-11-2006, 04:30 PM
To keep things in perspective, though, many players have "IT" in college but are complete flops in the pros. Andre Ware, Eric Crouch, Danny Wuerffel, Rashaan Salaamm, Jason White, Chris Weinke, Ron Dayne, Ty Detmer...just to name a few Heisman winners that were busts in the NFL. They definitely had some form of "IT" in the college ranks, though.

Not comparing any of the above examples to Vince Young. But rather pointing out that a great college career does not necessarily guarantee any measure of success in professional football.


DB you nailed it!!! Don't forget Klingler, and any QB coming out of Texas Tech or HI!! Guys, I can't wait for the draft or an indication as to what the team will do...Lord, can you imagine 3 more months of this...Double Barrel pleaseloan me you shotgun!!!

The Dream
01-11-2006, 04:30 PM
Yes it is a team sport, just like any other sport, but leadership and a will to win are important.

tulexan
01-11-2006, 04:33 PM
Yes it is a team sport, just like any other sport, but leadership and a will to win are important.


Who says your leader has to be your quarterback?

Runner
01-11-2006, 04:34 PM
I haven't seen so much discussion about IT since I studied Jack Keruac's On The Road in college.

MightyTExan
01-11-2006, 04:34 PM
It seems most people just try to focus on negative aspects of Carr. Carr is talented or he wouldn't be in the NFL. Let's talk about what type of shape VY(superman) would be in after a million sacks.

The Dream
01-11-2006, 04:36 PM
I didn't mention anything negative about Carr, this is just about him not being a leader......that's not a knock on him, it's just the flat out truth.

eric138
01-11-2006, 04:42 PM
I saw, throughout the years, a pissed off David, mad at the fact that we were losing and certain players were ****ing up. This past season there were even a few times this year.. The laughing and smiling after the losses he did alot this year was more of a "Yeah coach, you suck and I'm glad we're losing so we can get rid of your *** along with all your worthless cordinators".. Think about IT

The Dream
01-11-2006, 04:43 PM
"Yeah coach, you suck and I'm glad we're losing so we can get rid of your *** along with all your worthless cordinators"..

I doubt this, David was playing for an extension and maybe even his job this past season.

Hookem Horns
01-11-2006, 04:47 PM
It seems most people just try to focus on negative aspects of Carr. Carr is talented or he wouldn't be in the NFL. Let's talk about what type of shape VY(superman) would be in after a million sacks.

I honestly don't think VY would take as many sacks. I lost count of how many sacks Carr took that were his own fault. The guy has ZERO poise. At the first sign of trouble he either falls down or takes off running into defenders. I made that comment several times last season long before I ever imagined VY playing in the NFL.

eric138
01-11-2006, 04:48 PM
understandably but if you were a super stud surrounded by crap wouldn't you careless if you were traded? I know I wouldn't want to continue to endure thecrap he did for four years. He knows he is good and if he lost his job here he would be picked up elsewhere and given the opportunity to show the NFL what a real QB is.. but I'm not saying he is better than Young..

The Dream
01-11-2006, 04:53 PM
wouldn't you careless if you were traded?

If this is true (which I doubt), this would even show more lack of leading skills.

Mr. White
01-11-2006, 04:57 PM
but I'm not saying he is better than Young..

In all the arguing, I have yet to hear anyone say that. IMO, that's why we should take Young. We don't have a need for Reggie Bush any more than we have for VY.

eric138
01-11-2006, 05:08 PM
Dream, I am not disagreeing with you at all, matter of fact this is THE reason I don't like David Carr. He is not a leader of any level... He is just one of the guys.. Vince WILL be a leader and thats what we need.

HoustonFrog
01-11-2006, 05:08 PM
"IT" factor? Please! This is another argument that takes one guys "apples" experiences and compares them to another guys "oranges" accomplishments and then concludes that one of them (The guy they are in favor of) has "IT" but the other one (who they want replaced) doesn't.

"IT" is another imaginary scale that they can compare their hero to Carr on because all we have right now are some stats, which you can't directly compare because of the disparity between the Pro and College game, and a bunch of opinions.

Nobody is going to deny Vince Young a Heisman trophy every week. He's not going to turn some kind of percieved insult to his advantage for the duration of his career. For that matter Hakeem wasn't like the monster you saw destroy David Robinson for the vast majority of his career either. This is an excellent example of taking one performance (or in the case of Hakeem & Robinson a brief series of performances) far out of context and misinterpreting the results. Michael Jordan didn't put on a decade long display of "IT" when he finally won titles, he got a team around him which beat the hell out of trying to do it alone.

Next?

I find so much wrong with this post but I'm not going to break it down completely. How as Hakeem not a monster a vast majority of his career?He averaged 20 points and 11 rebounds his rookie year. He was All-NBA first team 6 years and was only the third man in history to lead the league in blocked shots and rebounds in a year. 2 titles. If you don't think he took the slight personally, you weren't watching. Read the Sports Guy on ESPN, he has a full category of revenge named after this slight..lol And Besides Pippen who was the team that Jordan got?Wettington, Paxson, Cartright? "IT" is real and you can try to shove it under the table and say it isn't there but some guys lead teams to championships and make players better and some are more comfortible watching from the sidelines. This coming from someone who is saying take Bush so lay off the tired UT rhetoric.

edo783
01-11-2006, 05:09 PM
You guys REALLY think that Carr didn't have "It" or leadership or what ever the heck ya want to call it when he was in college? That is a real BIZZAR thought process, because he was picked #1 overall and NO ONE picks the #1 without checking that out. Do you think he lost the wallet he was keeping it in or something? No, it's there and HAS come out to forfront at times. He and the INTIRE team were stiffeled by a group of coaches who were controll freaks that couldn't develope a game plan for a pop warner team. About mid season last of 04 the team/players gave up trying to work the system that they KNEW wouldn't work and the entire league had figured out and our CRACK team of coaches could adjust from.

HJam72
01-11-2006, 05:11 PM
Here's what we need to ask ourselves right now:

What would David Carr do if he played for UT right now? I think he would wreak havoc on opposing defenses and send them home crying. However, it's not like VY hasn't done some of that himself.

Let Carr face college defenses and see if he has "IT".

utahmark
01-11-2006, 05:11 PM
Well, I guess it's time to sit down then. While Carr is still unproven as far as being a skilled player, he has already proven that he can't lead.

Sitting at 0-3 "This isn't a must win game, but it is a must play well game." said Carr

when your on the best college team in the country its a little easier to call a game a must win than when your on a 2 and 14 team.

if carr would of said that the 4th game of the season was a must win and then they lost what would be next. just declare the whole season over.(well they kinda did that anyway but you get the point)

eric138
01-11-2006, 05:12 PM
Personally, I'm hoping for Young to come in and leade the team in 2007 to the playoffs.. In 2006, I'm hoping for Young to sit on the bench and Texans to get the number one draft again so we can get Peterson for OU..

Young
AJ
Peterson
Davis
Mathis
Bradford

2007 is the IT year.

gtexan02
01-11-2006, 05:13 PM
VY couldn't possibly step out and lead a Texans team as a rookie anyway. Theres simply no way some of our experienced vets are going to get all fired up and passionate because some 22 year old kid yells the UT battle cry. You have to earn respect in the NFL, unlike colleg eor highschool where you can get itmuch more quickly with an amazing play or series, etc.

HJam72
01-11-2006, 05:14 PM
I'm glad we have #1 this year, but I sure don't want to ever have it again. How can you want to go through another season like this one?

The Dream
01-11-2006, 05:17 PM
Vince said he wouldn't mind sitting and learning the first year, he seems like a very easy player to work with.

TopTexanFan16
01-11-2006, 05:28 PM
Personally, I'm hoping for Young to come in and leade the team in 2007 to the playoffs.. In 2006, I'm hoping for Young to sit on the bench and Texans to get the number one draft again so we can get Peterson for OU..

Young
AJ
Peterson
Davis
Mathis
Bradford
2007 is the IT year.

HAHA were goin nowhere if bradford is still our second reciever.....as much as i'd honestly like to see young come here.....we dont need him.

HJam72
01-11-2006, 05:30 PM
HAHA were goin nowhere if bradford is still our second reciever.....as much as i'd honestly like to see young come here.....we dont need him.

Actually, he has AJ and Mathis ahead of Bradford, but I'd like to see Gaffney and Armstrong ahead of him too. He shouldn't be on that list.

TopTexanFan16
01-11-2006, 05:33 PM
Actually, he has AJ and Mathis ahead of Bradford, but I'd like to see Gaffney and Armstrong ahead of him too. He shouldn't be on that list.

o i thought he had mathis up their just as kick returner because i dont think mathis is ready to be a second WR YET he can be but did drop alot of easy catches but in time will be good.

Texan Asylum
01-11-2006, 05:35 PM
If VY has got the kind of IT you say is required then I doubt seriously if he'd be content sitting and learning for a month, much less a year. It's either DC or VY. Can't be both. Got a QB, given the right coaching, he'll lead the team. IMO

eric138
01-11-2006, 05:37 PM
Yeah, Bradford was the joke addition...
He shouldn't be here in 2004, I mean 2005, **** hopefully 2006.. Someone on this new coaching staff has to see it..

The Dream
01-11-2006, 06:03 PM
If VY has got the kind of IT you say is required then I doubt seriously if he'd be content sitting and learning for a month, much less a year.

A lot of good QB's have set their first year.....what are you talking about?

Big B Texan Fan
01-11-2006, 06:20 PM
If VY has got the kind of IT you say is required then I doubt seriously if he'd be content sitting and learning for a month, much less a year. It's either DC or VY. Can't be both. Got a QB, given the right coaching, he'll lead the team. IMO
We got a RB too.
Who has performed better over the past 3 seasons?
Carr or DD?
I say DD
They'e both injury prone and Carr has a lot of miles sack-wise (no pun intended)
Do the line-men suck at pass blocking or do they not really to care to block for him?
Do the line-men rock at run-blocking or do they really want to block for DD?
Funny how we got line-men who can only run-block? I don't think you could plan that if your life depended on it.
Is it a leadership issue, is it all coaching or is it kinda both?

tulexan
01-11-2006, 06:25 PM
These guys want to win. They aren't going to block for Davis and let defensive linemen sack David Carr because they don't like him. This isn't the Longest Yard. There is a big difference between pass blocking and run blocking. We have a good run blocking crew but a bad pass blocking crew. It is not something that is uncommon. The Cardinals have a very good pass blocking line but can't run block if their lives depended on it. Does that mean that they hate Marcell Shipp and JJ Arrington? No, it means they aren't good at run blocking.

Jack Bauer
01-11-2006, 06:30 PM
I thought this was another advertisement for EBAY!! :heh:

Sorry, I couldn't resist!!! :)

Bobo
01-11-2006, 06:39 PM
>No matter the situation if you're losing or winning, you either have the "IT" factor or you don't.......The Lakers were horrible last year, but Kobe Bryant still had that "IT" factor.....to be honest when you're down, I think that's >when you're really showing what you're made of.

Like I said, it doesn't have to be the QB.




>that's your opinion, not a fact.

Look at 2004. Those are facts.




>Dude I'm a Seminole for life when it comes to college football......I could care less where Vince is from, all I know is I think dude is a special talent and >I want him on my home team.

Fact is, VY has his weaknesses (INTs for one). Carr has proven he is a good QB if given a supporting cast. Your "home team" needs improvement at a lot of other places, but certainly not QB.



>LOL.....why is it irrelevant?...I think it's VERY reletive.

It's irrelevant because QBs don't have to be the team leader, as I've already pointed out. Besides -- isn't that what coaches are for>

The Dream
01-11-2006, 06:41 PM
No the QB doesn't have to be the leader, but he can be.......and this team has no leader.


Fact is, VY has his weaknesses (INTs for one).

Vince's TD to Int ratio was really good this year.....he has improved in that area..............26:10 = good.

Big B Texan Fan
01-11-2006, 06:46 PM
Carr by the quarter after a failed 3rd down conversion:

1st- Slaps hands togther while smiling and looking up to the jumbo-tron. Sometimes hits his chest saying my bad

2nd- Looks at jumbo-tron, no smile, then goes straight over to Tony to see what he saw

3rd- Picks himself up off the ground and gets with the receivers on their route running and they say to him, throw it sooner cuz I'm never gonna be completely wide-open

4th- Picks himself off the ground again (a little slower this time around) hangs his head in shame, walks over to the sideline and everyone tells him it's gonna be OK, you're the golden boy from California. You'll be in the playoffs once we change coaches and they make the Line block for you because they were told to, not because they want to.

JustBonee
01-11-2006, 07:02 PM
A big difference between the two is PERSONALITY.
Vince has camaraderie with his teammates and everyone he speaks to. David Carr has never had that. It is not part of his makeup.
Vince connects, has a winning personality that draws people to him, hence the leadership qualities. That isn't something you can study on. It's a natural God-given attribute.
David is from another mold. And even though we don't know how he acts in the locker room with the rest of the team... on the field his body language speaks volumes. When he isn't pouting and worrying about himself, he is looking up into his family's suite at Reliant. He is a wonderful family man and very religious, but he just doesn't have the diversity to be 'one of the guys' and have the ability to make them want to follow him (leadership) .. It just isn't there. And you can't manufacture that.

HOOK'EM
01-18-2006, 05:19 AM
CARR by FARR

chuckm
01-18-2006, 10:21 AM
Maybe we should draft Stephen King

Dennis007
01-18-2006, 10:24 AM
Maybe we should draft Stephen King

You're right, as long as we traded Carr for him! :yahoo:


VINCE IN '06:redtowel:

Texans_Chick
01-18-2006, 10:49 AM
VY couldn't possibly step out and lead a Texans team as a rookie anyway. Theres simply no way some of our experienced vets are going to get all fired up and passionate because some 22 year old kid yells the UT battle cry. You have to earn respect in the NFL, unlike colleg eor highschool where you can get itmuch more quickly with an amazing play or series, etc.

Yes you have to earn respect, but in the end, players respect someone with mad skills. VY has accomplished stuff in college that most pros never did, which gives him a little bump.

Everybody knows what It is. If you have played any sports, there are certain players that people just want to follow and not disappoint. There is nothing that suggests that VY wouldn't have that characteristic and then some.

Maybe Carr has that too, but just hasn't had the tools around him. It is difficult to evaluate last season because of the injuries to key playmakers, the changes to the offensive staff, the limited offense, the very hard schedule at the beginning of the season compared to the easy schedule at the end, etc.

The biggest problem that Carr has now is that he has lost a lot of good will, fairly or unfairly, and many people think he can't play, and he has become both a local and national punchline. Winning will solve a lot of problems for him, but because of the loss of good will, he has run out of time--he has to win early next season for people to think that there is something there.

The bottom line, if the Texans win and Carr plays well, everything is cool. If the Texans don't win and he plays unwell, then it gets pretty dang ugly around here. That's lots of pressure on a guy to perform--and really hard in a team game where often what you do to win is not enough.

Anyways, yhings like "IT" or "he wants to play here" or "competitiveness" or things of that sort are just plus factors for VY but not the key reason you chose him. He is the BPA. A BPA QB that happens to have serious upside from the amazing stuff you have already seen.

Though I will have to say, I am not sure that having "IT" helps with QB vision, seeing your WRs, avoiding the rush etc. I mean, this guy here has IT and then some and I can't envision him being a good QB:

http://www.fancydresscostumeshop.com/images/small/2251.jpg


Hard to throw the ball when dude has no arms.

Big B Texan Fan
01-18-2006, 11:22 AM
When we talk about "IT" there is a small elite group of people that recognize "IT" right away and knows what that players next move is, where his emotions are, what's in his heart. These players include the likes of Jordan, Tiger, Magic, Bird, Montana, Singeltary, Lott. Those guys I bet recognized that guy on the TV that night. I bet when they were watching and it was 4th and 5 with seconds left, once the ball was snapped their hearing went muffled and they vicariously scored along with him knowing all along that a TD was gonna happen before the snap. "IT" is as rare as a perfect diamond, and not many have "IT".

tulexan
01-18-2006, 11:22 AM
But most scouts agree that he is not the BPA. In fact almost all believe that Reggie Bush is still the consensus top player in the draft. I heard Vinny Cerrato (VP of football operations for Redskins and former Bill Walsh talent evaluator) on ESPN radio the other day and he was talking about how he loves Vince Young and believes that he has the potential to be a great QB in the NFL, but you can't pass on a talent like Reggie Bush. He has been following Vince for a few years now and is really impressed with the improvements that he made, but said that it will take a few years for him to be NFL ready and he will have to go to a team that is willing to let him sit for a few years.

He said that the Texans will probably use Reggie Bush the same way that the Niners used Ricky Watters in the early 90's except that Bush is a lot better. He said that he plays a lot bigger than he actually is, and the "never runs to the outside" myth about him is untrue. He believes that you can't only blame David Carr for the team's failures and that Carr has the abilities to be a very good QB with proper coaching, protection, and weapons around him.

billtxus
01-18-2006, 11:28 AM
Its a little easier to have IT when you play on the best team in the nation, and most weeks are playing against teams that shouldn't even be sharing the same field. Texas played two tough opponents this year, Ohio St and USC. The rest of the games they just had to show up. When the team is this dominant its easy to display leadership, charisma or whatever.

Carr has led the league in sacks for four years. Didn't even have a QB coach his first two years. Has had to put up with literally incompetent offensive coordinators and planners.

The one game they let him call his own game against Arizona, he did great, and put up 27 points in the first half. The second half they go back to Joe calling the plays and they gain 63 yards for the half. Why did they change? were the coaches really that dumb? Looks like it.

In any event, my point is you have one guy in an extremely successful situation, and another in a very unsuccesful situation. If VY were losing games week after week, then he might not be quite the leader, or have IT.

This isn't meant to knock VY, but merely to say that I don't think that people have a good picture of DC, and that he has been in a very tough situation.

Dennis007
01-18-2006, 11:33 AM
Its a little easier to have IT when you play on the best team in the nation, and most weeks are playing against teams that shouldn't even be sharing the same field. Texas played two tough opponents this year, Ohio St and USC. The rest of the games they just had to show up. When the team is this dominant its easy to display leadership, charisma or whatever.

Carr has led the league in sacks for four years. Didn't even have a QB coach his first two years. Has had to put up with literally incompetent offensive coordinators and planners.

The one game they let him call his own game against Arizona, he did great, and put up 27 points in the first half. The second half they go back to Joe calling the plays and they gain 63 yards for the half. Why did they change? were the coaches really that dumb? Looks like it.

In any event, my point is you have one guy in an extremely successful situation, and another in a very unsuccesful situation. If VY were losing games week after week, then he might not be quite the leader, or have IT.

This isn't meant to knock VY, but merely to say that I don't think that people have a good picture of DC, and that he has been in a very tough situation.

:crying:

Excuse #1000000000000000002, any more?

MorKnolle
01-18-2006, 12:04 PM
I for one am pretty tired of hearing people on the radio say stuff like this: "I don't know what it is, but Vince just has 'IT', I can see it in his eyes." What is that supposed to mean other than you want him on the team and it's a convenient, non-substantial thing you can say to compliment Vince (or whoever your favorite player may be) and gripe about Carr. Anyone can come up with some ambiguous "IT" that their favorite player possesses in order to make them sound like the "answer" for our team, or just say "IT" for lack of any other compliment that actually bears some substance to it. At first I didn't like it, but after hearing these kinds of arguments from people, I'm beginning to see the connection to those eBay commercials that say "whatever IT is, find it on eBay." Well, whatever "IT" is, I see it in all my favorite players and it makes them a winner in my books.

Vinny
01-18-2006, 12:10 PM
I for one am pretty tired of hearing people on the radio say stuff like this: "I don't know what it is, but Vince just has 'IT', I can see it in his eyes." What is that supposed to mean other than you want him on the team and it's a convenient, non-substantial thing you can say to compliment Vince (or whoever your favorite player may be) and gripe about Carr. Anyone can come up with some ambiguous "IT" that their favorite player possesses in order to make them sound like the "answer" for our team, or just say "IT" for lack of any other compliment that actually bears some substance to it. At first I didn't like it, but after hearing these kinds of arguments from people, I'm beginning to see the connection to those eBay commercials that say "whatever IT is, find it on eBay." Well, whatever "IT" is, I see it in all my favorite players and it makes them a winner in my books."IT" is leadership and the attention, respect and adulation of his teammates and coaches. It's just hard for people to spell out (its an intangible...something Carr is short on)...so they say, "IT". Vince Young has "it" in my eyes. You know what I think of Carr...so no need for me to go on about "that".

jerek
01-18-2006, 12:12 PM
When we talk about "IT" there is a small elite group of people that recognize "IT" right away and knows what that players next move is, where his emotions are, what's in his heart. These players include the likes of Jordan, Tiger, Magic, Bird, Montana, Singeltary, Lott. Those guys I bet recognized that guy on the TV that night. I bet when they were watching and it was 4th and 5 with seconds left, once the ball was snapped their hearing went muffled and they vicariously scored along with him knowing all along that a TD was gonna happen before the snap. "IT" is as rare as a perfect diamond, and not many have "IT".

No offense, but this is the most ridiculously speculative post I have ever read: this in particular emerging from a hurricane of speculative, blankity-blank Vince Young blankity-blank posts (profanity involving unnnatural or vulgar expressions of affection deleted).

I don't know if you are writing a love letter to your girl or if you are talking about sports here, given the confusing use of previously distinguishable metaphors and word imagery.

Whether or not Vince Young has "it,' I am overly tired of hearing about "it." Unless you were having a party with above-mentioned sports celebrities at the time, you would do well to stop putting words in their mouths. It doesn't help your cause.

tulexan
01-18-2006, 12:12 PM
Reggie Bush has "it" too.

Vinny
01-18-2006, 12:12 PM
Reggie Bush has "it" too.I'd probably agree but this thread is about Young and Carr.

Jack Bauer
01-18-2006, 12:13 PM
"IT" is leadership and the attention, respect and adulation of his teammates and coaches.

Looks like you did a good job spelling it out right here. And besides these words people can simply say he has the intangibles and it seems less like someone has a crush on VY. It all comes down to word choice. That's how debates are won/lost and this is why a lot of the arguments made in favor of VY seem hollow.

tulexan
01-18-2006, 12:14 PM
Carr had "it" when he was in college too. A lot of great college QB's have "it". The difference is whether you can bring "it" to the NFL. That is what separates the Peyton Mannings and the Ryan Leafs.

Jack Bauer
01-18-2006, 12:17 PM
Carr had "it" when he was in college too. A lot of great college QB's have "it". The difference is whether you can bring "it" to the NFL. That is what separates the Peyton Mannings and the Ryan Leafs.

I concur! Carr was highly rated when it came to the intangibles like leadership and the desire to win.

Vinny
01-18-2006, 12:17 PM
Looks like you did a good job spelling it out right here. And besides these words people can simply say he has the intangibles and it seems less like someone has a crush on VY. It all comes down to word choice. That's how debates are won/lost and this is why a lot of the arguments made in favor of VY seem hollow.I think most of the arguments I read here are hollow...on both sides of this debate. I read about 1 good comment out of every 10 since the Rose bowl....and it's not going to change. You just have to know who has a consistently credible opinion over the years and try not to worry about the blowhards...on both sides of this debate.

infantrycak
01-18-2006, 12:18 PM
"IT" is leadership and the attention, respect and adulation of his teammates and coaches. It's just hard for people to spell out (its an intangible...something Carr is short on)...so they say, "IT". Vince Young has "it" in my eyes. You know what I think of Carr...so no need for me to go on about "that".

To take this out of the Young vs. Carr context, IT is something that IMO is vastly misanalyzed and overstated based upon results in a team sport. While having IT in the NBA will more directly lift an entire team, having IT in the NFL can be either hidden by a poor team or bad results or can be imaginary based on a great team. Look just at this past weekend and the discussions of Manning. Manning doesn't get the last TD and he is once again the big game losing QB who made questionable judgement calls in crunch time. Wayne pulls in that next to last pass attempt and Manning would have been the IT king of the world. Fact is his leadership skills and IT factor didn't swing on that play, but most football fans will act like it did. IT is something you certainly want in players, but it is very hard for fans to really know who has IT IMO--success alone certainly doesn't equal IT.

Vinny
01-18-2006, 12:20 PM
To take this out of the Young vs. Carr context, IT is something that IMO is vastly misanalyzed and overstated based upon results in a team sport. While having IT in the NBA will more directly lift an entire team, having IT in the NFL can be either hidden by a poor team or bad results or can be imaginary based on a great team. Look just at this past weekend and the discussions of Manning. Manning doesn't get the last TD and he is once again the big game losing QB who made questionable judgement calls in crunch time. Wayne pulls in that next to last pass attempt and Manning would have been the IT king of the world. Fact is his leadership skills and IT factor didn't swing on that play, but most football fans will act like it did. I think there is much to be said for having great leadership qualities. I don't think Manning has them either (and why he can't seem to win when the going gets tough)....I think that most of his teammates consider him elitist and better than them (in Peytons mind), so I don't consider that a good choice of people to hold up in this argument.

infantrycak
01-18-2006, 12:22 PM
I think there is much to be said for having great leadership qualities. I don't think Manning has them either (and why he can't seem to win when the going gets tough)....I think that most of his teammates consider him elitist and better than them, so I don't consider that a good choice of people to hold up in this argument.

Notice I didn't say Manning was a great leader. My point was to illustrate the perception of the public based on results using a recent example. I suspect Manning is regarded as an elitist but much of his team as well. Clearly having great leadership is a good thing--the point I was getting at was how to judge it, some do it by speeches, some without saying anything but just performing, some by quiet determination, some by fire--not all can be seen by fans.

MorKnolle
01-18-2006, 12:29 PM
I think most of the arguments I read here are hollow...on both sides of this debate. I read about 1 good comment out of every 10 since the Rose bowl....and it's not going to change. You just have to know who has a consistently credible opinion over the years and try not to worry about the blowhards...on both sides of this debate.

I agree, my problem with this debate is that so many people (on both the Vince and Reggie side) use arguments like this "IT" business that doesn't really say anything meaningful, much less "prove" anything as their main reason as to why their preferred player will be the man and the only option for the Texans. Indeed it is difficult to compare college players and NFL veterans, but I for one try to only bring arguments with some kind of substance to it other than ambiguous terms like this, and I get irritated, as you said, with reading one good comment out of ten on such subjects.

I think there is much to be said for having great leadership qualities. I don't think Manning has them either (and why he can't seem to win when the going gets tough)....I think that most of his teammates consider him elitist and better than them (in Peytons mind), so I don't consider that a good choice of people to hold up in this argument.

I'm not so sure that Peyton is viewed as an "elitist" that is above the team. I would definitely consider Peyton a perfectionist and I think he understands football very well and is a good student of the game when it comes to doing what he has to do and leading by example, but I'm not sure how good he is at lifting the play of others around him other than just playing a good game himself and putting the ball where it needs to be for his people to be successful. I don't see him with the same elite leadership of Joe Montana, John Elway, or the very few people we've seen like that (maybe even Tom Brady is getting there) who can single-handedly uplift the people on their team and find a way to will the team to a win (I think Michael Jordan is the prime example of this in professional sports, but I didn't want to bring in another basketball analogy, although I just mentioned it now so oh well). Anyways, that is a rare quality, some claim to see it in Vince Young, I personally don't see that aspect of it and even if I did he's still on the college level and until I see it in the pro's I will not be convinced.

Notice I didn't say Manning was a great leader. My point was to illustrate the perception of the public based on results using a recent example. I suspect Manning is regarded as an elitist but much of his team as well. Clearly having great leadership is a good thing--the point I was getting at was how to judge it, some do it by speeches, some without saying anything but just performing, some by quiet determination, some by fire--not all can be seen by fans.

Agreed, leadership is shown in different ways and most of us don't get a chance to see everything that goes on with a team to fully understand that aspect of it.

Grndzro
01-18-2006, 12:32 PM
I would like to point out that the "it" factor is a very legit intangible. I saw it many times when I was in the military. Some people have it and some people dont. That is not to say that it sometimes does not come out until certain circumstances are present. As far as Carr goes, I would like to bring up another Quaterback that was known to not have "it" his first couple of years in the league. That quarterback was Drew Brees, yet for the last two years he suddenly has "it" with his team and coaches. The same coaches that were going to toss him aside because he did not have it. It is amazing that when put to the test, and given talent around him suddenly his "it" factor multiplied. No one on this board can say Carr is not a leader until you are in that huddle, the rest is only speculation.

I have seen the biggest men run when they face danger and the weakest rise to the moment, take charge and push back the enemy. You never know what a man has in his heart until you walk in his shoes.

infantrycak
01-18-2006, 12:35 PM
I would like to point out that the "it" factor is a very legit intangible. I saw it many times when I was in the military. Some people have it and some people dont. That is not to say that it sometimes does not come out until certain circumstances are present. As far as Carr goes, I would like to bring up another Quaterback that was known to not have "it" his first couple of years in the league. That quarterback was Drew Brees, yet for the last two years he suddenly has "it" with his team and coaches. The same coaches that were going to toss him aside because he did not have it. It is amazing that when put to the test, and given talent around him suddenly his "it" factor multiplied. No one on this board can say Carr is not a leader until you are in that huddle, the rest is only speculation.

I have seen the biggest men run when they face danger and the weakest rise to the moment, take charge and push back the enemy. You never know what a man has in his heart until you walk in his shoes.

Very well said.

Grndzro
01-18-2006, 12:57 PM
Thanks Cak, I get a little worked up when people question others heart and leadership when they have never walked in the persons shoes or know what is really going on within the team. Many of these posters have know idea what leadership is or what it takes to be a leader. Many can not lead themselves out of a one way hallway. Sorry just venting.

Texan Asylum
01-18-2006, 01:09 PM
Thanks Cak, I get a little worked up when people question others heart and leadership when they have never walked in the persons shoes or know what is really going on within the team. Many of these posters have know idea what leadership is or what it takes to be a leader. Many can not lead themselves out of a one way hallway. Sorry just venting.
I agree with your take 100%. The one's that are quick to judge one's abilities and worth are usually the one's that are the least qualified. To be in a position to evaluate one's abilities one has to have done it themselves to be trully objective in their judgements. I've not read this entire thread as it is quite long so forgive me if this a duplicate post.

jerek
01-18-2006, 01:28 PM
I would like to point out that the "it" factor is a very legit intangible. I saw it many times when I was in the military. Some people have it and some people dont. That is not to say that it sometimes does not come out until certain circumstances are present. As far as Carr goes, I would like to bring up another Quaterback that was known to not have "it" his first couple of years in the league. That quarterback was Drew Brees, yet for the last two years he suddenly has "it" with his team and coaches. The same coaches that were going to toss him aside because he did not have it. It is amazing that when put to the test, and given talent around him suddenly his "it" factor multiplied. No one on this board can say Carr is not a leader until you are in that huddle, the rest is only speculation.

I have seen the biggest men run when they face danger and the weakest rise to the moment, take charge and push back the enemy. You never know what a man has in his heart until you walk in his shoes.

And by the way ... thanks for serving our country and we, the citizens. You are very much appreciated for it.

Texan Asylum
01-18-2006, 01:37 PM
Well put jerek!:redtowel:

Big B Texan Fan
01-18-2006, 01:41 PM
No offense, but this is the most ridiculously speculative post I have ever read: this in particular emerging from a hurricane of speculative, blankity-blank Vince Young blankity-blank posts (profanity involving unnnatural or vulgar expressions of affection deleted).

I don't know if you are writing a love letter to your girl or if you are talking about sports here, given the confusing use of previously distinguishable metaphors and word imagery.

Whether or not Vince Young has "it,' I am overly tired of hearing about "it." Unless you were having a party with above-mentioned sports celebrities at the time, you would do well to stop putting words in their mouths. It doesn't help your cause.
When you go on with the trolling that you do it makes me more excited about our bet.
I'll let you win this little battle, but remember, if you want stats and sources and links and quotes, go read a sports mag, or paper, or watch your fav sports channel.
If a speculatory post on a MB in a large city gets your panties in a wad, then may I suggest that you take up a new hobby
:goodnight

Grndzro
01-18-2006, 01:47 PM
Thanks for the kind words guys, I want to say that i believe that true leadership is born through adversity. I hope we would all agree that Carr has had plenty of that. If you do not believe that he is a leader then thats fine, but before you spout off on a diatribe about leadership make sure you know what your talking about and don't dishonor those that do. I have not posted this in defense of Carr, but I can not in all fairness make a judgement either like some of you have based on what the facts are. I am sorry to say that the facts are nill since I nor any of you are on the team. Thanks again for the kind words, but I am home safe, many others need your prayer and support.

jerek
01-18-2006, 02:01 PM
When you go on with the trolling that you do it makes me more excited about our bet.
I'll let you win this little battle, but remember, if you want stats and sources and links and quotes, go read a sports mag, or paper, or watch your fav sports channel.
If a speculatory post on a MB in a large city gets your panties in a wad, then may I suggest that you take up a new hobby
:goodnight

I was recently warned about name calling and derogatory commentary, so I will refrain from escalating this little war of words with you further.

In the meanwhile, speculation is fine. Hell, we are all speculating on here every day right now. What if, what if, what if?

On the other hand, pulling emotional, 100%-factless, ... I mean, really, I have no other words for your post. I can't even describe how utterly ... damn. I give up. Mike and Tiger and all the boys sitting around, engaged in some dream sequence about Vince right out of a B-grade "adult" film ... I give up. I can't write any more about this without pissing off a mod and getting banned again.

Next time you hear Mike or Tiger or any of these other people publically state something, or next time you are over at their house for steak and grits, feel free to drop me a line with their innermost thoughts on the MB.

Until then, please don't get your panties in a twist over a guy who hasn't played a down in the NFL yet.

And I'd like my 50 dollars in small, unmarked, non sequential bills, please. And I hope you don't welch on me when you lose, cause that would be really [bleep].

jerek
01-18-2006, 02:09 PM
And for the record, before I get another "STOP HATTING VINCE!! BLIND CARR HOMER!" reply, I think the guy is a good quarterback. I think he will need a year or two to be ready to perform at a high level in this league, but I think he will perform at a high level in this league.

Even debating the relative, less tangible merits such as "it" factor: that is well and good.

Just leave the strange fantasies out of it. Please.

Big B Texan Fan
01-18-2006, 03:43 PM
Just leave the strange fantasies out of it. Please.
I'll try and make any future fantasies not so strange. No promises :pigfly:

Runner
01-18-2006, 04:48 PM
To take this out of the Young vs. Carr context, IT is something that IMO is vastly misanalyzed and overstated based upon results in a team sport. While having IT in the NBA will more directly lift an entire team, having IT in the NFL can be either hidden by a poor team or bad results or can be imaginary based on a great team.


The team sport point is very valid - how much IT would Young have lost if his defensive teammates had not stopped USC on that final 4th down run? No final drive to win the game; no national championship. Would he then have "It" or just "it"?

In reality his IT wouldn't have changed. Just our perceptions - based on a play that occured when he wasn't on the field.

FirstDownMaker
01-18-2006, 05:52 PM
To keep things in perspective, though, many players have "IT" in college but are complete flops in the pros. Andre Ware, Eric Crouch, Danny Wuerffel, Rashaan Salaamm, Jason White, Chris Weinke, Ron Dayne, Ty Detmer...just to name a few Heisman winners that were busts in the NFL. They definitely had some form of "IT" in the college ranks, though.

Not comparing any of the above examples to Vince Young. But rather pointing out that a great college career does not necessarily guarantee any measure of success in professional football.

If what a player does in college does not matter then why is Reggie Bush on the top of your list?:hmmm:

texplayer2
01-18-2006, 06:36 PM
If what a player does in college does not matter then why is Reggie Bush on the top of your list?:hmmm:

Situation is why I would pick him.

real
01-18-2006, 08:03 PM
What you do in college does matter, I don't care what anyone says...Of course some guys that performed well get taken later because scouts nit pick them to death...but when have you seen someone who has done poorly get taken early??? College does matter because that is all we have to judge any player off of...If college didn't matter then Bush woulda just sat out after his stellar high school career and still went #1

dat_boy_yec
01-18-2006, 08:47 PM
You talk about "it" like there is only one way to have it. I don't know Carr or Young all I can see is what is shown on TV. We all assume Carr doesn't have "it" because he doesn't show it on the field, but what about off the field. Same thing with Young we don't know what goes on with him when he's not on the screen. All this about oh well he gets together with his team mates and does this and that. All his team mates go to the same school, live in the same city its not the same in the NFL where your teammates might not even live in the same city. I think Carr has "it" maybe not the same "it" as Young, but he is a leader in his way.

HJam72
01-18-2006, 10:51 PM
"IT" is either a college defense to play against or something you buy on ebay.

Trap_Star
01-18-2006, 10:53 PM
"IT" is either a college defense to play against or something you buy on ebay.

LOL! i think its something i got on ebay....

Mr. White
01-18-2006, 11:59 PM
IMO, the "it" factor is a rare thing. I think "it" transcends any one given sport. For example, I think that it's so rare, there may be only one guy in each sport who has "it." "It" transcends skill.

The "it" factor is only possessed only by those who have come up in clutch situations (championship games.) Guys that put their team on their back and just win these games. They all have different ways of doing whatever they have to do just to win the damn game.

"It" is only reserved for guys who have won championships. The reason why it is called the "it" factor is because there is no physical or scientific way to explain it. We know it's not in the dictionary. There might be guys who have "it" and haven't shown "it" yet. Some of the names I've seen in this thread don't have "it."......nobody whose last name is Manning....Brees doesn't have "it." At least not yet.

IMO, if it's something you've seen in slow motion in a Gatorade commercial, then you probably have seen an "it" moment.

Vinny
12-26-2006, 04:15 PM
To take this out of the Young vs. Carr context, IT is something that IMO is vastly misanalyzed and overstated based upon results in a team sport. While having IT in the NBA will more directly lift an entire team, having IT in the NFL can be either hidden by a poor team or bad results or can be imaginary based on a great team. Look just at this past weekend and the discussions of Manning. Manning doesn't get the last TD and he is once again the big game losing QB who made questionable judgement calls in crunch time. Wayne pulls in that next to last pass attempt and Manning would have been the IT king of the world. Fact is his leadership skills and IT factor didn't swing on that play, but most football fans will act like it did. IT is something you certainly want in players, but it is very hard for fans to really know who has IT IMO--success alone certainly doesn't equal IT.
I wonder if you still feel the same way?

real
12-26-2006, 04:46 PM
hightened awarness + energy + internal momentum = IT

There is a such thing as IT....


I remember when I was in highschool our starting running back got hurt....Our back-up RB was no slouch......He started the game and ran for 295 yards....set a record.....

But...

The next game our starter comes back, and I really can't explain it, but when you play with special players it gives the whole team added confidence....I've never played with a QB of VY's caliber, but I can pretty much imagine how those guys feel when he steps onto the field....

Yeah there are other guys making the catches...making the tackles....making key blocks, but do not underestimate IT....

The Dream
12-26-2006, 04:48 PM
The Dream = right on this one. :secret:

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 04:48 PM
I wonder if you still feel the same way?

I bet he has begrudgingly come around....

Hookem Horns
12-26-2006, 04:49 PM
I wonder if you still feel the same way?

LOL, you know how many of these threads you could pull out of the archives and laugh at? I made one right before the draft for everyone to put their final thought in one thread if VY would be successful in the NFL or not. I bookmarked it and thought I would bring it back up 3 years from now. I never dreamed I could be pulling it up just a few months later. I think I accidently deleted the bookmark though.

Double Barrel
12-26-2006, 04:51 PM
To keep things in perspective, though, many players have "IT" in college but are complete flops in the pros. Andre Ware, Eric Crouch, Danny Wuerffel, Rashaan Salaamm, Jason White, Chris Weinke, Ron Dayne, Ty Detmer...just to name a few Heisman winners that were busts in the NFL. They definitely had some form of "IT" in the college ranks, though.

Not comparing any of the above examples to Vince Young. But rather pointing out that a great college career does not necessarily guarantee any measure of success in professional football.

I've got to laugh at my own example!! :hides: for shame! for shame!

Vinny
12-26-2006, 04:51 PM
LOL, you know how many of these threads you could pull out of the archives and laugh at? I made one right before the draft for everyone to put their final thought in one thread if VY would be successful in the NFL or not. I bookmarked it and thought I would bring it back up 3 years from now. I never dreamed I could be pulling it up just a few months later. I think I accidently deleted the bookmark though.I also noticed that many of the people who were dogging Young the most don't post here anymore. I think some of them got new user names instead of eating crow. Props to the guys who hung in there even if they were wrong. Something to be said for that.

Texan_Bill
12-26-2006, 04:54 PM
LOL, you know how many of these threads you could pull out of the archives and laugh at? I made one right before the draft for everyone to put their final thought in one thread if VY would be successful in the NFL or not. I bookmarked it and thought I would bring it back up 3 years from now. I never dreamed I could be pulling it up just a few months later. I think I accidently deleted the bookmark though.

A likely story there mister. You might find it with the fish that got away... LOL.
:tease:

QB75
12-26-2006, 04:57 PM
Now this isn't just another thread praising VY, and crapping on Carr.......this is the main difference between these 2 players....I like to call it, the "IT" factor......Like I've mentioned before David is a nice going, classy, family guy....now while this may be good traits to have as a person, when you're the "leader" of your team it might not be the best thing.......I think everyone can agree (even Carr supporters), that David has never shown that fire after losing Sunday after Sunday.....it's usually the same old easy going, smiling QB after each game, even if they got crushed.....now as a leader of your team, I expect a guy to have a nasty, disgusting look on his face....why???.....not because he's a bad sport or because he's too immature to handle a loss....because he's a leader, and damnit, that's what leaders do..........Now lets take a look at VY........After losing out to Reggie Bush for the Heisman he was angry, disgruntled, perhaps even a little depressed.....so what did Vince do, first he displayed his displeasure to the national media, saying that he let his University, Family, and even the city of Houston down.....Vince used losing the Heisman, as fuel for the fire.......he said to himself (and in various articles) that he WANTED to prove everyone wrong, by going out at the Rose Bowl and playing fantastic........that he did, and after the game he even chanted "who's the heisman".....now some may say this is cocky, but it ain't cocky if you can back it up........when it comes down to it, we can argue all day about Carr not having a line, and having bad coaching as an excuse for his average play.....and those things are good excuses....but one thing we can't argue is that Carr does not have, what Vince has.....and that's not foot speed, or reading a defense, it's "IT".......Hakeem Olajuwon had "IT", when David Robinson was handed the MVP trophy in the 95 WCF, Hakeem went out and flat out embarrassed D Rob throughout the series......Michael Jordan had "IT" when he was accused of being a one man show, who would never win titles.....we all know how that turned out.....the bottom line is that we can argue all day, about the pros and cons of each QB, but when it comes down to it, Vince Young has "IT" and David doesn't.

Feel free to discuss

Really? Let's just let time tell who has "it" and who doesn't.

Kaiser Toro
12-26-2006, 04:59 PM
Really? Let's just let time tell who has "it" and who doesn't.

Why do we need time when we have visual and empirical data that supports that VY has IT and Carr does not.

tsip
12-26-2006, 05:02 PM
...how about some nice new un-rethreaded threads

Texan_Bill
12-26-2006, 05:05 PM
That would be very refreshing....

The Dream
12-26-2006, 05:07 PM
Really? Let's just let time tell who has "it" and who doesn't.

I had to look twice to make sure this wasn't posted back when I made this thread.....how much evidence does one need?

SESupergenius
12-26-2006, 05:07 PM
I wonder if you still feel the same way?

I guess your motive is glaringly clear, Bash Carr even when he wins. **sigh***

No need for rain on the parade, we've got Vinny to bring up year old posts and his man-love for Vince Young. thanks Vinny, we needed that, no reason to even watch this next game for the Texans, we should just go ahead and watch Vince Young take it to the Patriots. www.houstontexans.com now is www.titansmanlovevinceyoung.com

Vinny
12-26-2006, 05:11 PM
I guess your motive is glaringly clear, Bash Carr even when he wins. **sigh***

No need for rain on the parade, we've got Vinny to bring up year old posts and his man-love for Vince Young. thanks Vinny, we needed that, no reason to even watch this next game for the Texans, we should just go ahead and watch Vince Young take it to the Patriots. www.houstontexans.com now is www.titansmanlovevinceyoung.com
my motive was to ask if he felt the same way after a season of evidence that flew contrary to his point. If you don't want someone to challenge your opinions don't share them...otherwise it's all fair game.

dirty steve
12-26-2006, 05:13 PM
I guess your motive is glaringly clear, Bash Carr even when he wins. **sigh***

No need for rain on the parade, we've got Vinny to bring up year old posts and his man-love for Vince Young. thanks Vinny, we needed that, no reason to even watch this next game for the Texans, we should just go ahead and watch Vince Young take it to the Patriots. www.houstontexans.com now is www.titansmanlovevinceyoung.com

was this really necessary? i mean, the battle lines have clearly been drawn and everybody knows how everybody feels about this to not bring old stuff about how VY has "it." i was never in the VY camp, but i do realize that he is/will be a great player, but i won't eat crow just because i thought we had and still do have bigger needs than just a QB.

another flame war just got opened up.

Vinny
12-26-2006, 05:14 PM
another flame war just got opened up.only if you are the one flaming

dirty steve
12-26-2006, 05:16 PM
i'm not flaming anything, just wondering why this is necessary. unless the guy is weak in the mind, he wont admit he is wrong, or was somewhat misguided. i just dont see the point, other than to rub it in his face.

The Dream
12-26-2006, 05:16 PM
this has nothing to do with "flaming"....I'm just interested in knowing why people are still doubting this thread, eventhough VY has proved a lot of people wrong.

Vinny
12-26-2006, 05:17 PM
i'm not flaming anything, just wondering why this is necessary. unless the guy is weak in the mind, he wont admit he is wrong, or was somewhat misguided. i just dont see the point.
because this is a message board and not a chat room. There is a reason for the search function you know.....if you are so thin skinned that you cannot revisit an opinion then don't participate.

Give an opinion about the topic in the thread but stop personally attacking the people who are participating...or bullying them just because you don't agree with them.

dirty steve
12-26-2006, 05:18 PM
who effing cares? do you need the justification for yourself?

Vinny
12-26-2006, 05:19 PM
so much for dirty steve. If you guys want to talk some football feel free...if you just want to bully people who don't agree with you...then get lost, we don't want you here.

dirty steve
12-26-2006, 05:19 PM
because this is a message board and not a chat room. There is a reason for the search function you know.....if you are so thin skinned that you cannot revisit an opinion then don't participate.
yeah--but the opinion is already out there in the RECENT threads that have been started on the "VY-Carr/why didnt the Texans take VY debate." why not go with that? everybody knows VY has game.

Double Barrel
12-26-2006, 05:22 PM
this has nothing to do with "flaming"....I'm just interested in knowing why people are still doubting this thread, eventhough VY has proved a lot of people wrong.

I didn't call it either way, although I always saw a lot of potential. But he's the real deal, no doubt about it. I'd enjoy watching him more if he wasn't a freakin' Titan! :shades:

Beating the Colts was the only thing that helped this Texans fan's off-season from being the total pits after that VY game.

dirty steve
12-26-2006, 05:26 PM
should have kept myself banned from VY threads.

Texan_Bill
12-26-2006, 05:27 PM
I had to look twice to make sure this wasn't posted back when I made this thread.....how much evidence does one need?

First, CYA Steve..

We all know that ALL NFL team's ultimate goal is Super Bowl wins (fair or unfair). With that said, Vince has not done that yet (obviously thats impossible at this point in his career considering the regular season isn't even complete).

To me, that would be the 'evidence' needed... "IT" should translate to championships i.e Montana, Young, Namath, Unitis, etc.... Let's see what happens before we start making room in the HOF for VY's bust...

SESupergenius
12-26-2006, 05:28 PM
I'm not really flaming Vinny, he knows where I stand, I would like to just once come on this board an ENJOY a win. We've seen a lot of postings the last few weeks from a few Carr-haters that have just been overwhelming. almost every thread as of late, they post Carr into them somehow no matter what the topic is and it hasn't been too enjoyable to even post here.

We just saw a monumental win for this organization and it dwarfs in comparision to the activity on these boards when we played the Titans and Vince Young won the game in OT. A game in which Carr led his team to tie up the game and lost with a coin flip.


But I digress. Vince Young is not a Texan. We didn't pick him in the draft. He's a good player, but on a different team. If you like him and his team, them please by all means go over to thier website and sprinkle him with joy. We don't need to be reminded that we didn't pick Young....or Bush....or D'Brick etc.... every few posts.

Oh, and Vinny, Merry Christmas and have Happy New Year.

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 05:30 PM
I also noticed that many of the people who were dogging Young the most don't post here anymore. I think some of them got new user names instead of eating crow. Props to the guys who hung in there even if they were wrong. Something to be said for that.

I was firmly within the Carr camp and thought Young would be garbage in the NFL.....oh wait, no I wasn't. I was right all along :)

The Dream
12-26-2006, 05:31 PM
First, CYA Steve..

We all know that ALL NFL team's ultimate goal is Super Bowl wins (fair or unfair). With that said, Vince has not done that yet (obviously thats impossible at this point in his career considering the regular season isn't even complete).

To me, that would be the 'evidence' needed... "IT" should translate to championships i.e Montana, Young, Namath, Unitis, etc.... Let's see what happens before we start making room in the HOF for VY's bust...


So Marino didn't have "it".....neither does Manning or McNabb???....I guess Elway didn't have "it" until he won his superbowl rings???

Vinny
12-26-2006, 05:33 PM
I'm not really flaming Vinny, he knows where I stand, I would like to just once come on this board an ENJOY a win. We've seen a lot of postings the last few weeks from a few Carr-haters that have just been overwhelming. almost every thread as of late, they post Carr into them somehow no matter what the topic is and it hasn't been too enjoyable to even post here.

We just saw a monumental win for this organization and it dwarfs in comparision to the activity on these boards when we played the Titans and Vince Young won the game in OT. A game in which Carr led his team to tie up the game and lost with a coin flip.


But I digress. Vince Young is not a Texan. We didn't pick him in the draft. He's a good player, but on a different team. If you like him and his team, them please by all means go over to thier website and sprinkle him with joy. We don't need to be reminded that we didn't pick Young....or Bush....or D'Brick etc.... every few posts.

Oh, and Vinny, Merry Christmas and have Happy New Year. Good post and I understand....I just respect Infantrycak's wisdom and wanted to know if his pov was different now. I have a hard time with people personally attacking people for debate (my message to Steve, not you) ....debate is what makes a good message board. Not only is it healthy to be open minded, but people learn from other pov's when they are honest about what they are debating...but personally attacking people who don't agree with you only ruins a good message board.

SESupergenius
12-26-2006, 05:35 PM
I guess Elway didn't have "it" until he won his superbowl rings???That's what most people were thinking until Elway got a running game and a defense to complete the effort of putting up a Super Bowl team. Teams rarely win a Super Bowl with just a good QB, they have to have a lot of talent around them.

dirty steve
12-26-2006, 05:36 PM
i kind of feel like SES, it's like we just had the second biggest win in the history of the franchise but it seems to keep getting upstaged by what VY does. i mean, he's from Houston and all, but he plays for the Titans now. guess i'll just have to deal with it for the next 12-15 years.

Vinny
12-26-2006, 05:36 PM
That's what most people were thinking until Elway got a running game and a defense to complete the effort of putting up a Super Bowl team. Teams rarely win a Super Bowl with just a good QB, they have to have a lot of talent around them.
Elway was in 3 Super Bowls and won something like 8 playoff games before he got that "good running game".

Texan_Bill
12-26-2006, 05:37 PM
So Marino didn't have "it".....neither does Manning or McNabb???....I guess Elway didn't have "it" until he won his superbowl rings???

I know what you are saying, but that will be exactly the case, in about 10-20 years from now, when we are talking to our kids about QB's "back in the day.." There are some exceptions however.... I think some guys like Marino will have more staying power than others.

Unfortunately, we as a society tend to remember #1.....
Very rarely do we remember #2. (unless of course its the Titans coming up 1 yard short - which, fortunately I will always remember)...

real
12-26-2006, 05:40 PM
Trent Dilfer won a super bowl....


He must be full of IT

Porky
12-26-2006, 05:41 PM
I don't see what is wrong with revisiting decisions this team has made. You want another - how about trading a second rd pick and Aaron Glenn (in essence) for PBurnt. Ouch.

I gotta hand it to the Dream. That first post of his really sums it up well. And Vinny was right all along too. I thought Vince would be good, but not this good, this soon. And, frankly, it's not so much that he has good stats. The guy just knows how to win. All you have to know is 0-5 before Vince, and 8-2 after Vince - same team, same players. Funny, but all I hear around here is that the QB is only one of 22, and one player won't make much of a difference. I would like to see some of those posters defend that statement in light of the above stat.

SESupergenius
12-26-2006, 05:43 PM
Elway was in 3 Super Bowls and won something like 8 playoff games before he got that "good running game".

Right and kept losing them. Not that I think he lost, I contend it's a team game, but a lot of people were branding him because he couldn't win the big one. That whole "monkey off his back" thing was credited to the running game, no matter how great Elway was. He will forever be tied to T.D. in winning those Superbowls.

Vinny
12-26-2006, 05:44 PM
Trent Dilfer won a super bowl....


He must be full of ITThe ravens had a historic defense...you can go get some cheap QB to run your team if you have a great defense and a good running game. Why spend 8 mil a year on a guy like Dilfer? The first thing the Ravens did when they won the SB was to replace Dilfer...if he was such a magical player I don't think they let him go.

The Dream
12-26-2006, 05:44 PM
That's what most people were thinking until Elway got a running game and a defense to complete the effort of putting up a Super Bowl team. Teams rarely win a Super Bowl with just a good QB, they have to have a lot of talent around them.


I never understood that....me and my dad always knew Elway had "it" even before the super bowls.

real
12-26-2006, 05:45 PM
I would like to see some of those posters defend that statement in light of the above stat.

There is no such thing as momentum...

It is merely a figment of our imaginations....

There is no such thing as morale either....

Vinny
12-26-2006, 05:45 PM
Right and kept losing them. Not that I think he lost, I contend it's a team game, but a lot of people were branding him because he couldn't win the big one. That whole "monkey off his back" thing was credited to the running game, no matter how great Elway was. He will forever be tied to T.D. in winning those Superbowls.I've been an Oiler fan since 1971 and have seen exactly ZERO Super Bowls here in Houston. I'd have loved to have had Elway, won 12 playoff games and gone to 5 Super Bowls. You act like losing Super Bowls and being a playoff team each year means nothing.

SESupergenius
12-26-2006, 05:47 PM
Trent Dilfer won a super bowl....


He must be full of IT

He must of some of "IT" because he was the first Tampa Bay QB to go to a Pro Bowl. So you can go ahead and say that he is a Pro-Bowler. It's not like he was a terrible QB, he had a very good stretch for a couple of years.

Texan_Bill
12-26-2006, 05:48 PM
Trent Dilfer won a super bowl....


He must be full of IT

Okay mr. I have an answer for everything... How about Dan Fouts... A pretty darn good QB, but never won anything. How often does his name get mentioned on this board or anywhere?

Besides this is starting to get away from "the point".. The POINT is, there is no reason to start making a spot for VY in the HOF just yet... A half of a season doesn't necessarily prove anything - Its a GREAT start, yes but thats all it is - is a start. Ya just never know what could happen.... I am not suggesting that I want VY to be injured, but I don't think Joe Theeeeeesman was ready for his career to end when it did and how it did...

Vinny
12-26-2006, 05:49 PM
He must of some of "IT" because he was the first Tampa Bay QB to go to a Pro Bowl. So you can go ahead and say that he is a Pro-Bowler. It's not like he was a terrible QB, he had a very good stretch for a couple of years.Doug Williams was the first QB to get them to the playoffs. The Bucs had never been to the playoffs before Williams arrived. He led them to the playoffs three times in four years and played in the 1979 NFC Championship Game. Before Williams arrived the Bucs were much like our current Texans.

real
12-26-2006, 05:51 PM
He must of some of "IT" because he was the first Tampa Bay QB to go to a Pro Bowl. So you can go ahead and say that he is a Pro-Bowler. It's not like he was a terrible QB, he had a very good stretch for a couple of years.

That comment was directed to those saying that he must win superbowls to officially have IT....

And the year Trent Dilfer and the RAVENS won the superbowl he had a borderline terrible year....

real
12-26-2006, 05:53 PM
I am not suggesting that I want VY to be injured, but I don't think Joe Theeeeeesman was ready for his career to end when it did and how it did...

LOL.....


Thats the best you can do ? Hope the guy gets injured ?

I thought you'd say that this year was a fluke...his team carried him...he'll come down to earth next year....

But suggesting that he might not develop all his potential because of injury ?

if if was a fifth....

GP
12-26-2006, 05:54 PM
VY, in the locker room after the 2005 Rose Bowl game, said he wasn't happy with the win.

He said he wanted to win the national title.

He basically soured the mood of a celebratory locker room and made sure that the team knew that "this win" wasn't enough, at least for him.

I'm hoping that's the attitude Carr and the others have. I am hoping they are not enjoying the Colts win too much...I am hoping they are re-challenging themselves to now contend for the playoffs: And it starts RIGHT NOW.

I want to see us crush and humiliate the Browns, and I want to see our players catapult themselves into the offseason with a higher level of commitment to winning.

...at least that's what I am "hoping" for.

But after seeing an avatar of Carr laying on the ground with Kris Brown, I have my doubts.

I guess if they want to think that the zenith of their pro careers was beating Indy once-in-10 attempts then this might be the best that it ever gets.

I enjoyed the win. Now it's time to see if they float out a turdlet vs. the Browns or if they want to play like the big boys that they ought to be by now.

Starts with Carr (like it or not).

The Dream
12-26-2006, 05:54 PM
Besides this is starting to get away from "the point".. The POINT is, there is no reason to start making a spot for VY in the HOF just yet... A half of a season doesn't necessarily prove anything - Its a GREAT start, yes but thats all it is - is a start. Ya just never know what could happen.... I am not suggesting that I want VY to be injured, but I don't think Joe Theeeeeesman was ready for his career to end when it did and how it did...


who said anything about HOF (eventhough I think he'll get there one day), we're just saying he has "it"

Texan_Bill
12-26-2006, 05:59 PM
I am just saying its too early to tell... Let's see what happens over a period of time as expectations rise for the Titans. No one expecting anything from them this season, so Vince can come in and the titans can play loose, as they have been... Next year expectations go way up... Defenses will have a body of work in which to prepare from. The "run-and-shoot" was un-stopable, right? Wrong! Defenses figured it out and they were able to shut it down.

Texan_Bill
12-26-2006, 06:01 PM
LOL.....


Thats the best you can do ? Hope the guy gets injured ?

I thought you'd say that this year was a fluke...his team carried him...he'll come down to earth next year....

But suggesting that he might not develop all his potential because of injury ?

if if was a fifth....

Now you have me LOL.... I don't think he is a fluke AND I would never suggest ANYONE gets injured - EVER (please re-read my post)... Now, I don't mind a toe job now and again where a guy is looking through his ear hole, but I would never wish a serious injury on anyone...

The Dream
12-26-2006, 06:02 PM
I am just saying its too early to tell... Let's see what happens over a period of time as expectations rise for the Titans. No one expecting anything from them this season, so Vince can come in and the titans can play loose, as they have been... Next year expectations go way up... Defenses will have a body of work in which to prepare from. The "run-and-shoot" was un-stopable, right? Wrong! Defenses figured it out and they were able to shut it down.

don't worry I'll save you a seat on the bandwagon next year...lol

hollywood_texan
12-26-2006, 06:02 PM
Very few players have "IT" to the level that makes such a huge impact in the NFL.

What does that mean? Probably 99.999% of the time, anyone can say a player doesn't have "IT" and they are right 99.999%. Which is a pretty good success rate from that perspective. But that rate is like David Carr's completion %, it really doesn't tell you the whole story and isn't a good measure of success.

Evaluating a player and saying he has "IT", and then being right about it, is the key and very hard to do. Further, that type of player puts a coach and his teammates in Pro Bowls, Hall of Fame, and whatever else.

The Texans screwed up big time because they didn't realize sometimes playing safe can be worse than taking a risk. From a general perspective, they were right about the Carr extension and not drafting Young. But, if they had really got down in the details and all the opportunities, they would have realized they were missing an excellent opportunity.

I was amazed at how excited everyone was that the Texans beat the Colts and how things are going to be different now because of one game. Then I thought, what would people be thinking if Vince was on the Texans, the Texans were on something like a 6 game winning streak with an outside chance of making the playoffs. This board would explode!

real
12-26-2006, 06:03 PM
I am just saying its too early to tell... Let's see what happens over a period of time as expectations rise for the Titans. No one expecting anything from them this season, so Vince can come in and the titans can play loose, as they have been... Next year expectations go way up... Defenses will have a body of work in which to prepare from. The "run-and-shoot" was un-stopable, right? Wrong! Defenses figured it out and they were able to shut it down.

We have a guy going into his sophmore....errr.....6th season next year, and a team that hasn't accomplished what the VY led titans have this year....


How come guys just can't say "I was wrong" ???? Or atleast "I could be wrong" ???

Texan_Bill
12-26-2006, 06:04 PM
don't worry I'll save you a seat on the bandwagon next year...lol

LOL... I'll watch and hope local guy does well BUT rest assured, the Titan bandwagon is one you'll never - ever get me on...

Actually I can't say never.... Bud may pass some day..... hmmmmmmm!

Double Barrel
12-26-2006, 06:04 PM
Elway was in 3 Super Bowls and won something like 8 playoff games before he got that "good running game".

I don't know, big V....Denver had the 6th ranked rushing offense in 1989 (2092 yards rushing)....and Elway's peformance for that Superbowl: 10 out of 26 completions for 108 yards with no touchdown passes and two interceptions. Denver also had a good defense that year, too. The 1987 Broncos were ranked 12th in total rushing yards (1970 yards total), and his stats for that Superbowl: 14 out of 38 completions for 257 yards and one touchdown, with three interceptions.

I think Elway has always been a great QB, but that "IT" thing got better for him with age and a dominant running game (not to mention fantastic defense!). But those stats clearly indicate that he had a running game for a couple of those seasons, and he just failed to live up to his potential in those individual championship games.

real
12-26-2006, 06:05 PM
I could be wrong

Texan_Bill
12-26-2006, 06:10 PM
We have a guy going into his sophmore....errr.....6th season next year, and a team that hasn't accomplished what the VY led titans have this year....


How come guys just can't say "I was wrong" ???? Or atleast "I could be wrong" ???

First, you did not see me mention Carr. Second, I haven't really said anything negative about Vince, other than (in other threads) that he played for a rival high school, a rival university and now for a crappy owner. I actually rooted for him in the last two Rose Bowls. I think he is extremely talented. I think time will show, that he was the best player drafted for anyone in a really long time...

The Dream
12-26-2006, 06:13 PM
LOL... I'll watch and hope local guy does well BUT rest assured, the Titan bandwagon is one you'll never - ever get me on...

Actually I can't say never.... Bud may pass some day..... hmmmmmmm!


this was sick and twisted, but very funny

Texan_Bill
12-26-2006, 06:17 PM
this was sick and twisted, but very funny

Finally.... Now you are starting to get my sense of humor...

It is twisted but that may be a direct result of being hammered for the last 5 years.

VY's Crib U Jus payn Rent
12-26-2006, 06:47 PM
Vince Young hasn't played in the pros. David Carr has never had enough time to execute plays behind his o-line.

I will stand behind Carr until he proves he can't lead the team. He is the face of our team.

That is all.

Exactly what I'd expect an aggie to say! Please smell the coffee...

SESupergenius
12-26-2006, 06:55 PM
Doug Williams was the first QB to get them to the playoffs. The Bucs had never been to the playoffs before Williams arrived. He led them to the playoffs three times in four years and played in the 1979 NFC Championship Game. Before Williams arrived the Bucs were much like our current Texans.
Williams also won a Super Bowl, was the MVP as well. He has a little "IT" too. i don't know what point you are making with Dilfer however. I never really said anything about Williams.

TNTitan
12-26-2006, 07:29 PM
ookie quarterbacks usually suck balls. It seems as if that stage has already come and gone for VY.

Not only is VY a rookie, but he was an early entry from UT (although he did redshirt, so he spent 4 years in the program). And here are his stats...

169-321 (52.6%)
1972 yards
12 TDs
11 INT
Rushing: 81-523 (6.5 ypc), 6 TD
8-7 (8-4 as a starter)

So lets look at some other notable rookies. I will focus on "athletic" qbs...

John Elway (the guy who VY reminds me most of)
123-259 (47.5%)
1663 yards
7 TDs
14 INT
Rushing: 28-146 (5.2 ypc), 1 TD
9-7

Roger Staubach
23-47 (48.9%)
1 TD
2 INT
Rushing: 15-60 (4 ypc), 1 TD
11-2

Randall Cunningham
34-81 (42%)
548 yards
1 TD
8 INT
Rushing: 29-205 (7.1 ypc), 0 TD
7-9

Steve Young
72-138 (52.2%)
935 yards
3 TD
8 INT
Rushing: 40-233 (5.8 ypc), 1 TD
2-14

Donovan McNabb
106-216 (49.1%)
948 yards
8 TD
7 INT
Rushing: 47-313 (6.7 ypc), 0 TD
5-11

Mike Vick
50-113 (44.2%)
785 yards
2 TD
3 INT
Rushing: 31-289 (9.3 ypc), 1 TD
7-9


http://forums.titansonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22497

hmm posted from titans forum

Hookem Horns
12-26-2006, 07:43 PM
Doug Williams was the first QB to get them to the playoffs. The Bucs had never been to the playoffs before Williams arrived. He led them to the playoffs three times in four years and played in the 1979 NFC Championship Game. Before Williams arrived the Bucs were much like our current Texans.

Williams did it in his second year in the league and at the time he was drafted the team was just 2 years old. True, the Bucs were like the Texans except the Bucs drafted defense first (DE Lee Roy Selmon) in their first year and then waited on a quality QB. Their formula got them into the playoffs in just their 3rd season of existance. I wish the Texans would have followed that same formula and taken Julius Peppers.

BTW, Dilfer was a stiff at Tampa. Bubby Brister would have won a Super Bowl with that Ravens defense, and so would Carr. So if the Texans keep Carr they better build an historic defense.

alphajoker
12-26-2006, 07:49 PM
I want to see us crush and humiliate the Browns, and I want to see our players catapult themselves into the offseason with a higher level of commitment to winning.

Would a shutout by the D be too much to ask for?

kastofsna
12-27-2006, 08:38 AM
throw all strategy and everything out the window, just get a guy who has "it." whatever the hell that is.

LORENZOF33
12-28-2006, 05:08 PM
Man, this is like comparing apples to oranges!! lol...come on!!! This is like the Varsity squad playing the JV "B" team......lol....this is a laugher!! The thing that gets me about Carr is the smirks during interviews after a loss! Whats up with that? Its his nonchalant I really dont care we lost long as my faimly loves me type attitude........dude is like the tin man...no heart! No passion.... He just doesn't have "IT" like VY.

tulexan
12-28-2006, 05:14 PM
Is "IT" a FB who doesn't fumble every time he catches the ball? Or is "IT" a CB who doesn't get burned for two 83 yard touchdowns in one game?

kfranco_utexas
12-29-2006, 12:30 AM
To the top.:yes:

HJam72
12-29-2006, 12:56 AM
Do we all realize that Vince Young's yards per attempt are LOWER than David Carr's? I mean isn't that what everybody is complaining about--YPA?

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/sortableStats?div=NFL&stable=passing&stat=passYdsAtt&dir=descending

While you're looking at YPA, you might want to look at things like RTG and....oh, I don't know....SACKED.

HJam72
12-29-2006, 12:59 AM
Carr's numbers are actually very close to Steve McNair, except for TDs and Sacks.

HJam72
12-29-2006, 01:01 AM
If I could just once see a receiver catch a Carr pass over the shoulder, in stride, and keep going, I'd be convinced that Carr is not the problem. Will I ever see that with bad pass blocking and 3 step drops? I doubt it.

HJam72
12-29-2006, 01:04 AM
Is "IT" a FB who doesn't fumble every time he catches the ball? Or is "IT" a CB who doesn't get burned for two 83 yard touchdowns in one game?

My vote is for the CB (and our multi-injured, hobbling LT), but Cook would make a good practice squad player right about now.

The Pencil Neck
12-29-2006, 01:24 AM
If I could just once see a receiver catch a Carr pass over the shoulder, in stride, and keep going, I'd be convinced that Carr is not the problem. Will I ever see that with bad pass blocking and 3 step drops? I doubt it.

Just offhand, think back to the opening game of the season and the opening drive. IIRC, Carr hit Moulds over the middle in stride for a huge gain.

That might have been the last time all season. Where the hell did that go to? I remember feeling really optimistic after seeing that play.

HJam72
12-29-2006, 01:43 AM
Just offhand, think back to the opening game of the season and the opening drive. IIRC, Carr hit Moulds over the middle in stride for a huge gain.

That might have been the last time all season. Where the hell did that go to? I remember feeling really optimistic after seeing that play.

Not sure, but I don't think I got to see that game, which figures.

swtbound07
12-29-2006, 02:31 AM
Im sorry to see the guy who was using his username to insult me leave. Farewell steve

HJam72
12-29-2006, 05:53 AM
I just realized this thread started in January, almost a year ago. I think it needs to die.

thunderkyss
02-17-2007, 09:23 PM
Just offhand, think back to the opening game of the season and the opening drive. IIRC, Carr hit Moulds over the middle in stride for a huge gain.

That might have been the last time all season. Where the hell did that go to? I remember feeling really optimistic after seeing that play.

Was that the Moulds touchdown pass??

If so, that didn't hit Moulds in stride. He actually picked that one out of a defenders hands, then got mad YAC for the TD.

Now the opening drive of the Washington game, when AJ ran behind the defense, Carr delivered a good pass to AJ in stride. He was coming across the field, so it wasn't exactly over his shoulder.

But I've been rewatching some of our games, and Miami was a pretty good game for David. Some really good passes, and not a lot of the dinking & dunking. But several good throws.

The Pencil Neck
02-17-2007, 10:11 PM
Was that the Moulds touchdown pass??

If so, that didn't hit Moulds in stride. He actually picked that one out of a defenders hands, then got mad YAC for the TD.

Now the opening drive of the Washington game, when AJ ran behind the defense, Carr delivered a good pass to AJ in stride. He was coming across the field, so it wasn't exactly over his shoulder.

But I've been rewatching some of our games, and Miami was a pretty good game for David. Some really good passes, and not a lot of the dinking & dunking. But several good throws.

No, I think I might be thinking about the throw to AJ against the Redskins where he was pushed out at the 2.

The only game I've still got on Tivo is the Colts game so I can't go back and check. I had thought it was Moulds, though.

swtbound07
02-17-2007, 10:31 PM
wow...its like a blast from the past...i had forgotten about this one.

Hulk75
02-17-2007, 11:54 PM
Was that the Moulds touchdown pass??

If so, that didn't hit Moulds in stride. He actually picked that one out of a defenders hands, then got mad YAC for the TD.
Now the opening drive of the Washington game, when AJ ran behind the defense, Carr delivered a good pass to AJ in stride. He was coming across the field, so it wasn't exactly over his shoulder.

But I've been rewatching some of our games, and Miami was a pretty good game for David. Some really good passes, and not a lot of the dinking & dunking. But several good throws.

Acctually the ball was thrown perfectly, out of the way of the Saftey, it had a little zip on it. The ball was were it should have been.

Dink and Dunk was our running game through 75% of the season.

Frills
02-18-2007, 12:03 AM
The "IT" is a running game and a line.

Capers and Pendry ruined Carr.

VY is a Titan now, go hug his nuts on their message boards.

swtbound07
02-18-2007, 12:06 AM
Acctually the ball was thrown perfectly, out of the way of the Saftey, it had a little zip on it. The ball was were it should have been.

Dink and Dunk was our running game through 75% of the season.

Just for my curiousity, are you and QB75 related?

HoustonFrog
02-18-2007, 12:08 AM
The "IT" is a running game and a line.

Capers and Pendry ruined Carr.

VY is a Titan now, go hug his nuts on their message boards.

Didn't our running game win our last two games for us, including the Colt game?You know, when we took it out of the QBs hands. And Pendry, the guy who just helped Romo make a Pro Bowl. Devil's Advocate.

SamuraiSword
02-18-2007, 01:08 AM
Just for my curiousity, are you and QB75 related?

They have too be because their last name is 75. :tease:

thunderkyss
02-18-2007, 01:48 AM
Acctually the ball was thrown perfectly, out of the way of the Saftey, it had a little zip on it. The ball was were it should have been.

If that's what you consider perfect..... or were it should have been, then I now understand why David ranks so high on your list. Your Good QBs would have put that over Moulds' head, were there were no defenders at all. It would have been over his outside Shoulder, like The Pencil Neck originally stated.

Dink and Dunk was our running game through 75% of the season.

are you exagerating for effect, or are you serious?? 75% of a 16 game season would be 12 games. Are you saying we rushed for less than 100 yards in 12 out of 16 games??

tulexan
02-18-2007, 03:10 AM
Didn't our running game win our last two games for us, including the Colt game?You know, when we took it out of the QBs hands. And Pendry, the guy who just helped Romo make a Pro Bowl. Devil's Advocate.

When did he do that?

thunderkyss
02-18-2007, 03:32 AM
I think he ment Palmer. The Cowboys QB coach for '06.

TEXANRED
02-18-2007, 10:42 AM
Bad thunderkyss................bad................NO!

Resurrecting the "IT" thread, you should be ashamed of yourself.

:jk: :includeme:

dirty steve
02-18-2007, 10:44 AM
wow...its like a blast from the past...i had forgotten about this one.
i wish it would have stayed there. i think everybody on here knows how everybody feels. what's the need to bring it up for the 1000th time?

Erratic Assassin
02-18-2007, 10:53 AM
now as a leader of your team, I expect a guy to have a nasty, disgusting look on his face....why???.....not because he's a bad sport or because he's too immature to handle a loss....because he's a leader, and damnit, that's what leaders do.........

Now lets take a look at VY........After losing out to Reggie Bush for the Heisman he was angry, disgruntled, perhaps even a little depressed.

I think that's overrated. That's like saying, the Astros play better when Clemens is on the mound. You would THINK they would but the reality is that they don't. Roger can't get run support to save his life.

The "It" that Carr is missing his timing. Peyton Manning thrives on timing and rhythm. Even Peyton falls apart when the line breaks down and his timing gets screwed.

Palmer, Pendry, and Capers also made David too conservative. They were so scared of turnovers that David has been trained to believe, "when in doubt don't throw the ball." There is always doubt.

HoustonFrog
02-18-2007, 11:06 AM
I think he ment Palmer. The Cowboys QB coach for '06.

My bad. I fumbled that one. I was thinking Palmer. Pendry was the guy that helped Kerry Collins reach the NFC Championship game..my bad.:)

TwinSisters
02-18-2007, 12:07 PM
My bad. I fumbled that one. I was thinking Palmer. Pendry was the guy that helped Kerry Collins reach the NFC Championship game..my bad.:)

Pendry is in Alabama with Applewhite now.

El Amigo Invisible
02-18-2007, 12:51 PM
You're right, as long as we traded Carr for him! :yahoo:


VINCE IN '06:redtowel:

Vince is a winner.

QB75
02-18-2007, 01:37 PM
Vince is a winner.

Neither the Texans nor the Titans made playoffs. Until either one of them does, oneither QB has IT.

TexansFanatic
02-18-2007, 02:35 PM
Neither the Texans nor the Titans made playoffs. Until either one of them does, oneither QB has IT.

**sigh**

El Amigo Invisible
02-18-2007, 06:24 PM
Neither the Texans nor the Titans made playoffs. Until either one of them does, oneither QB has IT.

Vince already went toe to toe with Manning and won . Period.

QB75
02-18-2007, 06:28 PM
Vince already went toe to toe with Manning and won . Period.

Texans and Carr beat Manning and Colts. Period.

Honoring Earl 34
02-18-2007, 07:21 PM
Texans and Carr beat Manning and Colts. Period.

Why does this remind me of a Jose Lima fastball to Sosa ?

axman40
02-18-2007, 07:24 PM
Young went 8-5 as a starter for a team that had won only nine games the previous two seasons combined.

I would have to say advantage VY for now!

:hides:

brewhaus
02-19-2007, 08:12 AM
....I like to call it, the "IT" factor......Feel free to discuss

The Texans can get this. I saw a TV commercial and "IT" is sold on ebay. Should be an easy fix at this point, huh?

Kaiser Toro
02-19-2007, 08:23 AM
The only thing Carr has on VY is being the Number One pick in the draft. Outside of that Carr is simply a squirrel looking for a nut in VY's backyard.

HomeBred_Texan
02-19-2007, 08:55 AM
The only thing Carr has on VY is being the Number One pick in the draft. Outside of that Carr is simply a squirrel looking for a nut in VY's backyard.

Too harsh...

Carr is watching E-Bay so he can start bidding on "IT"...