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Nighthawk
01-11-2006, 03:13 AM
I know it's presumptuous. Forgive me.

Here's the deal. Young is too big a potential star to pass up. Plain and simple, that's what it comes to. He might be a bust, though the odds are pretty much against it, and he might not be the best QB in NFL history.

On the other hand, he MIGHT BE the best QB in NFL history. Who else can you say that about? Nobody. So the Texans have to take him at number 1.

The next problem is Carr. After much reflection and against my own wishes, I think the Texans will figure some way to keep Carr for the next year or two. I figure Young will grow very fast and take over the team some time late nest year or in 2007. At that point, if Carr has improved he can either stay and back up Young, or, if he's vaulable trade material, get the trade people are talking about this year.

Young is a once-in-a-lifetime prospect, and that's the kind of thing you can't ignore. Lienart will be a good NFL QB, but his upside isn't even close to Young's. That's why you didn't hear anybody screaming about taking Lienart over Bush.

So it comes to keeping Carr and taking Bush, and working some financial wizardry to make it work. Were it me I'd trade Carr for picks now, use Banks next year while Vice gets a handle on things, or make a low level trade for a journeyman vet for next year.

I do not think that's what McNair will do. The safe bet, from his point of view, is keep Carr until we're 100% sure Vince is going to be a superstar.

Hookem Horns
01-11-2006, 03:18 AM
What about Ragone? Would you consider giving him a shot next season if the team trades off Carr? It's funny how no one has mentioned him amidst all of this.

swtbound07
01-11-2006, 03:18 AM
I know it's presumptuous. Forgive me.

Here's the deal. Young is too big a potential star to pass up. Plain and simple, that's what it comes to. He might be a bust, though the odds are pretty much against it, and he might not be the best QB in NFL history.

On the other hand, he MIGHT BE the best QB in NFL history. Who else can you say that about? Nobody. So the Texans have to take him at number 1.

The next problem is Carr. After much reflection and against my own wishes, I think the Texans will figure some way to keep Carr for the next year or two. I figure Young will grow very fast and take over the team some time late nest year or in 2007. At that point, if Carr has improved he can either stay and back up Young, or, if he's vaulable trade material, get the trade people are talking about this year.

Young is a once-in-a-lifetime prospect, and that's the kind of thing you can't ignore. Lienart will be a good NFL QB, but his upside isn't even close to Young's. That's why you didn't hear anybody screaming about taking Lienart over Bush.

So it comes to keeping Carr and taking Bush, and working some financial wizardry to make it work. Were it me I'd trade Carr for picks now, use Banks next year while Vice gets a handle on things, or make a low level trade for a journeyman vet for next year.

I do not think that's what McNair will do. The safe bet, from his point of view, is keep Carr until we're 100% sure Vince is going to be a superstar.



I will set my body on fire if this is the last vince young thread made......too many months left before draft day.

texan279
01-11-2006, 03:19 AM
Best QB in NFL history? The guy hasn't even stepped on an NFL field! The reason you don't hear anyone screaming about Leinhart is because he isn't from Texas.

Big B Texan Fan
01-11-2006, 03:35 AM
The Chargers afforded it last year and this year. 2 QB's on the roster that are high paid . This year had more $$ spent for them though. They'e still alive.

ATX
01-11-2006, 04:22 AM
No way this is the last VY thread. Not even the last thread of the week, but good shot at it.

J-Man
01-11-2006, 07:58 AM
The Chargers afforded it last year and this year. 2 QB's on the roster that are high paid . This year had more $$ spent for them though. They'e still alive.


They had significantly more cap space to work with then than we do now.

J-Man
01-11-2006, 08:06 AM
I know it's presumptuous. Forgive me.

Here's the deal. Young is too big a potential star to pass up. Plain and simple, that's what it comes to. He might be a bust, though the odds are pretty much against it, and he might not be the best QB in NFL history.

On the other hand, he MIGHT BE the best QB in NFL history. Who else can you say that about? Nobody. So the Texans have to take him at number 1...

...I do not think that's what McNair will do. The safe bet, from his point of view, is keep Carr until we're 100% sure Vince is going to be a superstar.

Quick notes to a couple things here:
1. Ref. drafting possibly the "best QB in NFL history"...Tom Brady, 7th round pick to NE. 3 SB rings and 2 SB MVPs and won a SB in his 1st season as a starter. If Vince does that I'll strip naked and do the hokey pokey on the 50yrd line.

2. You'll never know 100% about anyone...it took most Carr haters 2.5 to 3 seasons to cement their decision that Carr needed to go.

MorKnolle
01-11-2006, 10:54 AM
You could say that about half of the young, starting QBs in this league could become the best NFL QB of all time, and a case could be made for Favre and Manning to be included in that elite group, and I am not at all ready to include Vince in that group, not until he actually steps onto the NFL field and proves himself for a couple years.

What about Ragone? Would you consider giving him a shot next season if the team trades off Carr? It's funny how no one has mentioned him amidst all of this.

That's because Dave Ragone is not very good. Any lack of development that you have seen in Carr is mainly due to poor coaching, and Ragone has been receiving that poor coaching his whole career too, but David came out of college a much better QB than Ragone and has gotten to play in 60 some games and gain experience from that, which Ragone also has not gotten to do. Putting the team in Ragone's hands next year will basically guarantee us another 2-14 record.

Best QB in NFL history? The guy hasn't even stepped on an NFL field! The reason you don't hear anyone screaming about Leinhart is because he isn't from Texas.

Agreed, outside of Texas, and mainly Houston, the general consensus is that we either take Bush or trade down. No one else is really considering Vince as a serious option because they all realize the potential that David still has if we'd give him a decent team and coach to work with and they aren't blinded by their hometown loyalties. Fans of certain teams (especially the Raiders) are now hoping we will draft Vince so we will trade Carr to their team because they realize how good of a QB he can become.

The Chargers afforded it last year and this year. 2 QB's on the roster that are high paid . This year had more $$ spent for them though. They'e still alive.

1) That's the Chargers and if they want to have cap problems from doing so then I have no problems with it.
2) They are not paying their two QBs anywhere near what we would. Rivers was taken at #4, and although he held out to get #1-type money (his holdout cost him his job anyways, otherwise the Chargers may have had the same success with him since the rest of the team improved so much and everyone would be saying about what a great deal the Chargers made to get Rivers), his contract was about $15-20 million less than what Vince Young will receive as the outright #1 pick, add that to the fact that David Carr is going to be receiving around $8.5 million a year with his new contract, and that makes for some bad cap problems, especially for a team that already has some unnecessarily huge contracts (Wade, McKinney, Walker, Payne, Greenwood, etc.) and that is going to need some cap room to try to bring in some free agents and the rest of their draft picks to actually improve this team.

Nighthawk
01-12-2006, 04:54 AM
Couple of points.

I did not say Vince Young "would" be the best QB in NFL history, I said he might not be but at least he has the chance. I do not think you can say that about many of the QBs in the league, certainly not "half of the young, starting QBs." Carr, for example, clearly won't ever be the best QB in the NFL.

You know nothing of Ragone and neither do I. The coaches kept a lid on him and what people saw in practice doesn't count. Besides, everybody's got an agenda, even you. You're all about Carr Forever, aren't you? All your posts say as much.

Outside of Texas the "real" fans haven't been watching Vince Young for the last three years. And they've heard all the hype about the brilliance of Reggie Bush. He's no doubt a considerable talent, but I don't see it as a talent that's going to tear up the NFL. I suspect he'll do well, just not THAT well.

I prefer trading Carr now, if we can get anything like value from him, which I personally doubt. I figure we might get a number 2 pick at best, but then who knows. Some other people on other msg boards at least seem to think he could help their teams. In fact, I would not mind affording him the opportunity for a fresh start somewhere else, especially if we get Young and some draft picks out of the deal.

If we keep Carr, which seems likely, then I'm absolutely certain McNair and his financial wizards can figure out a way to keep both of them for a year or two, thus putting us in the best position to benefit the franchise in the long run.

My original point was, and is, that Vince Young presents a remarkable talent that is too big to pass up. I grant that there's a possibility he's not all he looks like he might be. But if he's half as good as he looks like he might be, he's twice as good as Carr, so it's hard to lose by taking him.

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 08:57 AM
Couple of points.

Outside of Texas the "real" fans haven't been watching Vince Young for the last three years. And they've heard all the hype about the brilliance of Reggie Bush. He's no doubt a considerable talent, but I don't see it as a talent that's going to tear up the NFL. I suspect he'll do well, just not THAT well.

I'm so frakin sick of this stupid opinion that the so-called real fans havn't wathced VY ans that the only reason they say Reggie is beeter is casue they didn't watch VY. This is just flatout arrogant. Firstly all of the draft gurus and professional writers HAVE watcehd VY alot this year, no matter where in the country they are; secondly all this talk of the "REAL" fans is just moronic; Ijust because you've seen every VY snap (and probally very little of Bush) dosn't entitle you to lord over everybody who disagrees with you.

I trust the guys who do this (draft evaluation) for a living, which isn;t you, and they nearly all say Bushis the best player to leave college in several years. Some have VY near the top, some don't; but none to my knowledge have anybody rated higher the Reggie.

HomeBred_Texan
01-12-2006, 09:07 AM
I know it's presumptuous. Forgive me.

Here's the deal. Young is too big a potential star to pass up. Plain and simple, that's what it comes to. He might be a bust, though the odds are pretty much against it, and he might not be the best QB in NFL history.

On the other hand, he MIGHT BE the best QB in NFL history. Who else can you say that about? Nobody. So the Texans have to take him at number 1.


Oh my gosh....

Are you serious? Vince doesn't even sit under the center and take snaps. Once he "learns" how to get under the center and get the ball, you think he can still run like he does now? I don't. The pocket will close and in the "pro" league, the pocket will collapse faster than it did at Texas. You think pro linebackers and defensive ends are going to just let him run like day light? It will take them 2 games before they learn to stop it and try and make him "pass" the ball which we ALL KNOW he still needs to learn how to do.

Now take Matt Leinart. He is already learned to pass from the pocket and recieve snaps from "under" the center which has to be done to get anywhere in the NFL. So please spare me this Vince Young is God stuff and let's move on.

Big B Texan Fan
01-12-2006, 09:17 AM
I'm so frakin sick of this stupid opinion that the so-called real fans havn't wathced VY ans that the only reason they say Reggie is beeter is casue they didn't watch VY. This is just flatout arrogant. Firstly all of the draft gurus and professional writers HAVE watcehd VY alot this year, no matter where in the country they are; secondly all this talk of the "REAL" fans is just moronic; Ijust because you've seen every VY snap (and probally very little of Bush) dosn't entitle you to lord over everybody who disagrees with you.

I trust the guys who do this (draft evaluation) for a living, which isn;t you, and they nearly all say Bushis the best player to leave college in several years. Some have VY near the top, some don't; but none to my knowledge have anybody rated higher the Reggie.
Most of the so-called gurus of nfl draft usually go with who they think will go in the top 10 so they will not look stupid, not who they consider is better than who. Casserly is a so called guru. In all of our 2nd and 3rd pix (whether we kept the pick or tradeed it) since the teams inception Cass has only hit on 1 of them out of a possible 11 (give or take 1 on the 11, I think I got it right).

Anyways, Those draft sites want hits on their sites, they'll keep putting Bush there as long as they think the Texans will take him, not because they know all about scouting.

rmartin65
01-12-2006, 09:18 AM
Vince operated in the shotgun, Alex Smith operated into the shotgun. My poit is it is very different being under center. Alex Smith had 1 great year, and became the #1 pick. Now he's thrown 1 TD and 11 picks or something.

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 09:22 AM
Anyways, Those draft sites want hits on their sites, they'll keep putting Bush there as long as they think the Texans will take him, not because they know all about scouting.

Free daraft sites are useless, as are most pay sites. But writers, for legit media outlets, know there ****.

Guys like Gosslin, Kiper (as much as I hate to say it), the crew at Scouts, Inc and the guys at Ourlads know what they are talkin about; and they almost all have Reggie has the highest rated/graded player in the last several years; not just that they think he will go first but the highest, ie the best, ie the most cont miss, ie the most likely to be a star in several years.

Big B Texan Fan
01-12-2006, 09:46 AM
Free daraft sites are useless, as are most pay sites. But writers, for legit media outlets, know there ****.

Guys like Gosslin, Kiper (as much as I hate to say it), the crew at Scouts, Inc and the guys at Ourlads know what they are talkin about; and they almost all have Reggie has the highest rated/graded player in the last several years; not just that they think he will go first but the highest, ie the best, ie the most cont miss, ie the most likely to be a star in several years.
Explain to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bush is an NFL, #1 pick worthy, evry down back. Off of what you learned from the Gurus

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 09:50 AM
When sombody who knows more then anybody and everybody on this board, Rick Gosslin, says that he hasn't seen a back withe the acceleration, moves, speed, ability to effect a game; says teh he is the best prospect in a long *** time I believe him. Why shouldn't I, and why do you not? Gosslin is well know by draftniks as THE source of draft info and analysis.

As for what I've seen personally, dude watch Reggie and don't tell me he isn;t . He can score from anywhere on the feild .

Big B Texan Fan
01-12-2006, 10:18 AM
When sombody who knows more then anybody and everybody on this board, Rick Gosslin, says that he hasn't seen a back withe the acceleration, moves, speed, ability to effect a game; says teh he is the best prospect in a long *** time I believe him. Why shouldn't I, and why do you not? Gosslin is well know by draftniks as THE source of draft info and analysis.

As for what I've seen personally, dude watch Reggie and don't tell me he isn;t . He can score from anywhere on the feild .
Good Points
Gosslin has been wrong before, many times.
Look at the translation to the nfl, it seems as though as it doens't compute.
Undersized fast scatback PR KR types can be found all through the draft.
He's not an everydown guy, will never be
You can use rookies on 3rd down and on returns to get them on the field to see what they can do as rookies but you do not draft a guy with the #1 to be that kind of guys his whole career.
Bush is great, not #1 overall great
Besides, noone should get their hopes up because Kubiak and the Broncos have passed on many RB's in the 1st rd because they don't believe in drafting a RB in the 1st. If Kubiak is our coach (which all indications point that happening) that more than likely won't change when he comes here.

Riddle me this.
Bush to DD is an upgrade, a substantial one. But DD's body of work in the NFL is pretty good.
Young to Carr is an upgrade, a substantial one. Carrs' body of work in the NFL is not very good at all.
Hmmmm
Why replace with this particular pick the better of the 2. The more productive of the 2. The one you gave a contract extension to less than a year ago. I just don't see it happening.
Not to mention we got Morency and Wells. Kubiak and his version of the zone blocking scheme can work wonders with those guys. Bush is better than all those guys though. But why bring in another good/great back.
We've got no QB's worth a crap. Hold the line on all the O-Line junk. They run block well becuase they respect DD, and can't pass block very goodto beginwith but don't give it much more effort because the respect factor is minimal. I can't say who but one of my close friends is an old HS buddy of one of the starters on our line and it's no secret in the locker room that they do not like him very much.

I've typed long enough. Please reply

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 12:23 PM
Vince is NOT as good as Carr right now, sorry. David has three years of pro expeirence versus Vince's none. On that alone Carr is a better pro QB currently then VY. Also there are still several NFL talent evaluators who think Carr can still be a good to great NFL QB; once agan why do you doubt the opinion of guys who are paid to make these calls, and therefore on average are usually right?

Yes, Gossilin has been wrong, but a) not ofter and b) when he says somebody is a slam dunk he is usually right. Bush was third in the nation in rushing, and the guys infront of him had each has an extra 100 carries (Bush's 200 to 308 and 309). Also Gossilin just said that he thinks that Bush will be teh ROY next year, and that when he talks to NFL talent guys and brings up the name Bush he gets comparisions to OJ, Sayers and that like, he has those kind of traits and abilities. Bush is a special knid of player, not the average player he is being made out to be here.

Reggie is 6'0" and 200 pounds. He is likely to add some weight in the next couple of years. Davis is 5'9" 216 pounds, but you don't think he is undersized? Bush is faster then DD, bigger then DD, more elusive then DD, a better reciever then DD, and behind this suspect line would probaly be a bigger threat to the opposing D then DD.

As for Kubiak, how do you know what he will do in the draft? He (Kubiak) could think that Reggie is the best back since Sanders and that Carr is better then VY and that DD is one more injury away from being done.

jerek
01-12-2006, 12:30 PM
I know it's presumptuous. Forgive me.

Here's the deal. Young is too big a potential star to pass up. Plain and simple, that's what it comes to. He might be a bust, though the odds are pretty much against it, and he might not be the best QB in NFL history.

On the other hand, he MIGHT BE the best QB in NFL history. Who else can you say that about? Nobody. So the Texans have to take him at number 1.

The next problem is Carr. After much reflection and against my own wishes, I think the Texans will figure some way to keep Carr for the next year or two. I figure Young will grow very fast and take over the team some time late nest year or in 2007. At that point, if Carr has improved he can either stay and back up Young, or, if he's vaulable trade material, get the trade people are talking about this year.

Young is a once-in-a-lifetime prospect, and that's the kind of thing you can't ignore. Lienart will be a good NFL QB, but his upside isn't even close to Young's. That's why you didn't hear anybody screaming about taking Lienart over Bush.

So it comes to keeping Carr and taking Bush, and working some financial wizardry to make it work. Were it me I'd trade Carr for picks now, use Banks next year while Vice gets a handle on things, or make a low level trade for a journeyman vet for next year.

I do not think that's what McNair will do. The safe bet, from his point of view, is keep Carr until we're 100% sure Vince is going to be a superstar.

Did you watch Banks against San Francisco? How many interceptions did he put up in a half against the 9ers? I'd rather have Pendry and Carr nickel and diming it down the field than to watch that turnover factory in progress.

It is ridiculously presumptous to say that VY might be the best QB in NFL history. I know: that wasn't the thrust of your argument, you are just arguing that he will probably good. But the best ever? Hell, for that matter, I might be.

Could we stick to calling it like it is, which is to say he has the chance to be a great NFL QB?

MorKnolle
01-12-2006, 12:32 PM
Vince is NOT as good as Carr right now, sorry. David has three years of pro expeirence versus Vince's none. On that alone Carr is a better pro QB currently then VY. Also there are still several NFL talent evaluators who think Carr can still be a good to great NFL QB; once agan why do you doubt the opinion of guys who are paid to make these calls, and therefore on average are usually right?

Yes, Gossilin has been wrong, but a) not ofter and b) when he says somebody is a slam dunk he is usually right. Bush was third in the nation in rushing, and the guys infront of him had each has an extra 100 carries (Bush's 200 to 308 and 309).

Reggie is 6'0" and 200 pounds. He is likely to add some weight in the next couple of years. Davis is 5'9" 216 pounds, but you don't think he is undersized? Bush is faster then DD, bigger then DD, more elusive then DD, a better reciever then DD, and behind this suspect line would probaly be a bigger threat to the opposing D then DD.

As for Kubiak, how do you know what he will do in the draft? He (Kubiak) could think that Reggie is the best back since Sanders and that Carr is better then VY and that DD is one more injury away from being done.

On this particular debate I'm on your side in that I'd rather have Reggie than Vince, but just wanted to ask how Bush is bigger than Davis? That said, we have a lot of unknowns that must happen between now and the draft, and we'll have to see what McNair, Casserly, and the new coach (presumably Kubiak) feel is the best option for this team.

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 12:36 PM
On this particular debate I'm on your side in that I'd rather have Reggie than Vince, but just wanted to ask how Bush is bigger than Davis? That said, we have a lot of unknowns that must happen between now and the draft, and we'll have to see what McNair, Casserly, and the new coach (presumably Kubiak) feel is the best option for this team.

Bush is probally 1 to 2 inches taller then Davis, we won't know for sure till the combine, add that with the fact that nearly ALL rookies but on some extra pounds of muscle in their first two years. So Reggie is know taller then DD and will soon probaly be the same size then DD. Add to that he is vastly faster and has better moves.

MorKnolle
01-12-2006, 12:38 PM
Bush is probally 1 to 2 inches taller then Davis, we won't know for sure till the combine, add that with the fact that nearly ALL rookies but on some extra pounds of muscle in their first two years. So Reggie is know taller then DD and will soon probaly be the same size then DD. Add to that he is vastly faster and has better moves.

Agreed, Davis is listed at 5-9 but when I saw him I'd say more like 5-7 or 5-8, but in the same way Bush is probably really only 5-11. Either way, Bush putting on 15-20 lbs. will start to slow him down a little, plus being 6-0 215 is not really bigger than 5-8 215, you are taller and the same weight but it means you're a lot leaner and less solid.

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 12:45 PM
Agreed, Davis is listed at 5-9 but when I saw him I'd say more like 5-7 or 5-8, but in the same way Bush is probably really only 5-11. Either way, Bush putting on 15-20 lbs. will start to slow him down a little, plus being 6-0 215 is not really bigger than 5-8 215, you are taller and the same weight but it means you're a lot leaner and less solid.

Point conceeded. But at 5'11" say 210ish, Reggie will still be faster and more elusize.

My main point was that the knock on Reggie's size is pointless, espically when we are compating him to DD. That's all.

MorKnolle
01-12-2006, 12:51 PM
Point conceeded. But at 5'11" say 210ish, Reggie will still be faster and more elusize.

My main point was that the knock on Reggie's size is pointless, espically when we are compating him to DD. That's all.

I understand your point, I was just asking that question because 8 days ago when Bush was still the hot topic people kept bringing that up. As I said before, if I have to choose between Reggie and Vince I choose Reggie every time for this team (or just about any team for that matter), but I'm still in favor of trading down if we can get a good offer.

Big B Texan Fan
01-12-2006, 01:16 PM
Vince is NOT as good as Carr right now, sorry. David has three years of pro expeirence versus Vince's none. On that alone Carr is a better pro QB currently then VY. Also there are still several NFL talent evaluators who think Carr can still be a good to great NFL QB; once agan why do you doubt the opinion of guys who are paid to make these calls, and therefore on average are usually right?

Several contradictions here:
David has 3 years pro exp and VY does not so on that alone makes Carr a better pro.
Well DUH. And he has 4 years exp. I wonder which year you were trying to forget

DD has 3 years exp so that alone makes him a better pro than RBush. Sounds kinda stupid huh.

The several NFL evaluators will probably agree that in order for Carr to succeed is for him to move on somewhere else and get away from Texans, the expansion label, and the VY debate. You know kinda like a fesh start, a divorce if you will.

Then you ask me why I doubt the guys who get paid to make these calls. Well they don't get paid, they are in business for themselves. So they will say whatever gets their site hit until the combine and personal workouts. The nation wants/thinks Bush should/will go first so they'll set their mocks accordinglly.
But then you say that on average they are usually right.

IMO Bush wieghs 195 or less. We need to wait for the Combine.

Oh, and I don't want a guy who was not put that much in the most important game of the season by a coach who is a former NFL coach. Sorry, that spoke volumes to me. He also runs a pro style d and Young romped all over them. Yeah, yeah, I know, ranked 39th. Well the UT D is ranked pretty high and Bush got loose once on a run for a TD, and when he got
CAUGHT FROM BEHIND
by UT defenders, he bone-headly lateraled the ball. That crap does not fly in the NFL (not for long).

You see, you're right, I'm right and bottom line is we'll probably only win 3-6 games next year if we're lucky.

But I say take Young and change everything as opposed to taking Bush which will add some extra speed in our back-field on 3rd down. Maybe if he was 30 lbs heavier and was dependable/usable on goal line situations.
Oh wait, he can push Carr in the end zone if we need him too. Never mind, I change my mind, let's draft Bush..........AHHHHHH PHUEY!!!!
Bush is gonna be a biggedy BUST.

Plz respond back

Nighthawk
01-12-2006, 01:20 PM
all this talk of the "REAL" fans is just moronic; Ijust because you've seen every VY snap (and probally very little of Bush) dosn't entitle you to lord over everybody who disagrees with you.

"Real" was in quotes in my original msg to indicate that I was making fun of the use of "real" fandom by your side of this argument.

bckey
01-12-2006, 01:32 PM
I think come draft day that the Texans will get an offer to trade down that is too good to pass up. I'm in the VY camp but I was for trading down prior to VY declaring. We just don't need a rb. Bush will cost us $50 million minimum. DD has shown he CAN get the job done even behind the horrible OL the Texans have. Add to that the fact that the Texans drafted Morency in the 3rd last year. Between DD and Bush the Texans would have way too much invested in an overstocked position.

David Carr on the other hand (I have supported him all 4 years) has never shown that he can get the job done with any kind of consistancy required from the qb position. Maybe in the new system he will shine. The fact is we don't have anyone that can take over if Carr doesn't improve. Our only other option would be to sign a decent veteran that can legitimately compete for the starting job if we don't draft VY. Carr has never competed for his job in the NFL. Ever. That is a darn shame and probably hurt Carr as much as anything.

No matter what the Texans do come draft day I just want a better team on the field next year. The Texans were painful to watch last year at times. I think good times are ahead for the Texans and their fans.

Nighthawk
01-12-2006, 01:41 PM
This has devolved into yet another my guy is faster my guy gets more touches thread. I intended to say that the decision is bigger than that.

Bush is a fine talent and an excellent prospect.

Young is a spectacular talent and a once-in-a-lifetime prospect.

THAT'S why we have to take Young.

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 01:48 PM
Several contradictions here:
David has 3 years pro exp and VY does not so on that alone makes Carr a better pro.
Well DUH. And he has 4 years exp. I wonder which year you were trying to forget

DD has 3 years exp so that alone makes him a better pro than RBush. Sounds kinda stupid huh.


No becasue QB and RB are two very differnt position with two very different sets of adjustments needed. Several Rookie RBs have enterd the league and made a differnce, I can think of only a couple of rookie QBs who have. And both of those were true pocket passers.

The several NFL evaluators will probably agree that in order for Carr to succeed is for him to move on somewhere else and get away from Texans, the expansion label, and the VY debate. You know kinda like a fesh start, a divorce if you will.

Source please, casue I have not heard that disclaimer from anybody.

Then you ask me why I doubt the guys who get paid to make these calls. Well they don't get paid, they are in business for themselves. So they will say whatever gets their site hit until the combine and personal workouts. The nation wants/thinks Bush should/will go first so they'll set their mocks accordinglly.
But then you say that on average they are usually right.

FORGET ABOUT THE HACKS WITH THEIR OWN WEBSITES.

Gossilin is paid by teh Dallas Morning News, Kiper is paid by ABC, Ourlads is a company that has been around since before teh web, Clayton and Mortenson work with Kiper. These guys are paid TO BE RIGHT and with as much as a crapshot the draft is they are better then you, me, the hacks at draftnotebook, the guys on with local radio shows, and every other soul on this board. If you chose to discredit their opinion and expertese, do so at your own peril.

And I don't like dealing with blanket statements but THEY ARE RIGHT A VASTLY MORE SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF THE TIME THEN YOU ARE I. Find me somebody who agrees with your statements on Bush and I'll listen till then...

IMO Bush wieghs 195 or less. We need to wait for the Combine.

Oh, and I don't want a guy who was not put that much in the most important game of the season by a coach who is a former NFL coach. Sorry, that spoke volumes to me.

Yeah Carrol was a brillant NFL head coach:rolleyes: Go read stuff from back in his days with New England and then think about that statement. Carroll is overated.

He also runs a pro style d and Young romped all over them. Yeah, yeah, I know, ranked 39th. Well the UT D is ranked pretty high and Bush got loose once on a run for a TD, and when he got
CAUGHT FROM BEHIND
by UT defenders, he bone-headly lateraled the ball. That crap does not fly in the NFL (not for long).

Correct me if I'm wrong but Vince didn't do the same thing, only he got lucky cause the replay booth f'ed up?

As for being caught from behind, he was caught be a DB who was atleast 12-15 yards away from the line of scrimmage when Bush caught the ball.

And USC may run a pro STYLE D, but they did it with very little PRO level talent. VY won't be able to run through arm tackels by D linemn in the pros. And if you think he can we arn't going to get very far here.

You see, you're right, I'm right and bottom line is we'll probably only win 3-6 games next year if we're lucky.

But I say take Young and change everything as opposed to taking Bush which will add some extra speed in our back-field on 3rd down. Maybe if he was 30 lbs heavier and was dependable/usable on goal line situations.
Oh wait, he can push Carr in the end zone if we need him too. Never mind, I change my mind, let's draft Bush..........AHHHHHH PHUEY!!!!
Bush is gonna be a biggedy BUST.

Plz respond back

You are right with either big we'll probaly only win 6 or so games.

And forget the push, cause it just shows that he has a will to win, just like VY.

The only people I hear who think Bush will be a bust are own this baord, and they nearly all want the Texans to draft VY. Motives?

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 01:53 PM
This has devolved into yet another my guy is faster my guy gets more touches thread. I intended to say that the decision is bigger than that.

Bush is a fine talent and an excellent prospect.

Young is a spectacular talent and a once-in-a-lifetime prospect.

THAT'S why we have to take Young.

No

Bush is the spectacular talent the once-in-a-lifetime guy.

VY MAY be a spectacular talent, he may be the once-in-a-lifetime talent.

There is a difference.

The only people who are anointing VY now are teh homers on this board. Go read the opinoins of others who just might be more knowlegable then you.

If you draft for BPA w you take Bush, if you draft for need youtrade down, if you draft to make the fans happy you take VY.

Which sounds like the better way to run a football team?

Big B Texan Fan
01-12-2006, 01:56 PM
Very good dissection of my post. I kinda feel violated. Do it again.

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 02:11 PM
We are debating an issue, you say something I disagree with it, you make your points then I make my contepoints.

Its not personal, heated maybe; but not personal.

Didn't mean to offend, and maybe I'ma bit frustrated by teh love-fest. If I offended you I apologize.

MorKnolle
01-12-2006, 02:15 PM
No

Bush is the spectacular talent the once-in-a-lifetime guy.

VY MAY be a spectacular talent, he may be the once-in-a-lifetime talent.

There is a difference.

I'll leave this argument alone, I'm not sure either is a once-in-a-lifetime talent, both are very good and Bush is probably the more NFL-ready of the two.

The only people who are anointing VY now are teh homers on this board. Go read the opinoins of others who just might be more knowlegable then you.

If you draft for BPA w you take Bush, if you draft for need youtrade down, if you draft to make the fans happy you take VY.
Which sounds like the better way to run a football team?

I definitely agree with this part. Very few people outside of Texas think Vince is the better option at the #1 pick. I definitely agree with the statement I've underlined and have been saying something to this effect for a while on here, but until a week ago Vince was not a part of it, the argument was just between drafting BPA and going on team needs.

stevo3883
01-12-2006, 02:17 PM
As for being caught from behind, he was caught be a DB who was atleast 12-15 yards away from the line of scrimmage when Bush caught the ball.



for the record it was UT linebacker Drew Kelson (houston star from lamar high school) that caught bush from behind on the lateral play. And ran stride for stride with Bush and picked off leinart (but was wrongly ruled incomplete when the ball popped out)

pv1999
01-12-2006, 02:21 PM
Can Bush count to infinity? Twice?

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 02:22 PM
I gotta disagree, Kelson did inded catch him, but he was at the 30 when Bush ran by him; and was only able to catch him cause Reggie got slowed up in traffic.

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 02:22 PM
Can Bush count to infinity? Twice?

No sadly, only once. But he did do it in a hour.

T_Guru
01-12-2006, 02:26 PM
Can Bush count to infinity? Twice?

He's good...but he's no Chuck Norris.

Big B Texan Fan
01-12-2006, 02:28 PM
We are debating an issue, you say something I disagree with it, you make your points then I make my contepoints.

Its not personal, heated maybe; but not personal.

Didn't mean to offend, and maybe I'ma bit frustrated by teh love-fest. If I offended you I apologize.
easy killer. i know its not personal, you did not offend me, and I'm not having a lovefest for VY.

Hers's the prob - There's really noone to compare him to. Nobody knows what to think, or what to expect at the next level. And if you do compare him to the other dual threat qb's, then he's the best of all time. All time. Kinda hard to annoit someone "The best of all time".

Bush is not the best of all time at his trade/running style, just one of the best.

Austin_Texans_Fan
01-12-2006, 02:28 PM
He's good...but he's no Chuck Norris.


LOL, somebodies been hanging out on ESPN lately

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 02:30 PM
easy killer. i know its not personal, you did not offend me, and I'm not having a lovefest for VY.

Hers's the prob - There's really noone to compare him to. Nobody knows what to think, or what to expect at the next level. And if you do compare him to the other dual threat qb's, then he's the best of all time. All time. Kinda hard to annoit someone "The best of all time".

Bush is not the best of all time at his trade/running style, just one of the best.

Honestly, and truly I'd be happy either war; I just prefer Reggie.

Big B Texan Fan
01-12-2006, 02:36 PM
Honestly, and truly I'd be happy either war; I just prefer Reggie.
Same for me, I just prefer VY.

That was fun though.

Good Job with the sources. But be careful. They do tend to echo each other for the sake pumping each other up.

Jack Bauer
01-12-2006, 02:37 PM
As for being caught from behind, he was caught be a DB who was atleast 12-15 yards away from the line of scrimmage when Bush caught the ball.

Thank you for posting this.

After reading that Bush was "CAUGHT FROM BEHIND," I had to go look at the play again on my DVR. There were two defenders still in front of Bush, as he was manuevering around those two players a third player came from the side/back. No one would have caught him in a foot race. Should we look at the 26 yard TD run again?

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 02:53 PM
Same for me, I just prefer VY.

That was fun though.

Good Job with the sources. But be careful. They do tend to echo each other for the sake pumping each other up.

Yes it was.

As for the sources, I really only really read Gossilin. The others I just catch what I can

Big B Texan Fan
01-12-2006, 02:57 PM
Thank you for posting this.

After reading that Bush was "CAUGHT FROM BEHIND," I had to go look at the play again on my DVR. There were two defenders still in front of Bush, as he was manuevering around those two players a third player came from the side/back. No one would have caught him in a foot race. Should we look at the 26 yard TD run again?
I was going off of memory, my DVR was on the fritz. I had to take it to be replaced the next day. I was pissed.

thunderkyss
01-12-2006, 07:10 PM
Vince is NOT as good as Carr right now, sorry. David has three years of pro expeirence versus Vince's none. On that alone Carr is a better pro QB currently then VY.

David runs out of bounds with the ball. David will fall down expecting the sack.
David went 2-14 this year.

I honestly don't think you would get much at all for David Carr if we tried to trade him. Even though I say I'm being fair by providing him next year to boos his stock, it's really hoping that he can, so we can get something for him. He's definitely not being underpaid, we won't ever see our money back on any kind of trade involving David.

Nighthawk
01-12-2006, 10:03 PM
Very few people outside of Texas think Vince is the better option at the #1 pick.

I think this will change by draft time, but even if it doesn't, I still need to be persuaded. Reggie was great in all those high school videos, and he was great in a couple of college games against way sub-standard competition (400 yds per game!), but he's not going to be able to do 3/4s of what he's famous for in the NFL. Period. The competition is way too good. And a RB who only gets 15-20 touches, while he may be more "NFL-ready," sure isn't going to do much that DD doesn't already do for this team. You could use Mathis more and you'd be as well off.

If he were a bigger back you might argue that he would develop into something more than a situation player in the NFL. Juking around is fine in high school and college, but you got bigger, faster, tougher LBs and DBs to deal with and Bush is just not going to be playing faster or quicker than they are.

Gale Sayers would not be a hero in today's game, as many have noted. Walter Payton would, though there are severe limits on what he could do for you. Sanders was extraordinary but did it bring the sunshine to Detroit? No.

A top quality QB has more of a chance of turning the team around. I say Young is once-in-a-lifetime, but even if you back off that and say he's "just" extraordinarily good, he's our best chance of making the Texans into a contender in relatively short order.

After four years of consistently bad QB play, FOR WHATEVER REASON, you can't go into next season with Carr as your primary/only guy. He's just not credible any longer, however pretty he looks on the practice field.

rellufnalla
01-12-2006, 10:03 PM
There are a bunch of us who believe in Mr. Young. I was converted in 2001.
My son said there was some kid that was unbelievable on Madison's team.

Katy might have a problem with him. They did.

He made Katy look bad all by himself. It was like watching Jason keep getting back up - he was unstoppable.

I didn't think he would do that at UT. But he did.

I believe.

The Texans pass on him and it will come to haunt them 3 or 4 years from know when he starts bringing home the ring.

Put him behind Carr for now, build the line and it will happen.

I believe.

Errant Hothy
01-12-2006, 10:06 PM
I think this will change by draft time, but even if it doesn't, I still need to be persuaded. Reggie was great iall those high school videos, and he was great in a couple of games against way sub-standard competition (400 yds per game!), but he's not going to be able to do 3/4s of what he's famous for in the NFL. Period. The competition is way too good.

Neither will Vince, for the same reasons.

Nighthawk
01-13-2006, 01:38 AM
Neither will Vince, for the same reasons.

One guy is 5'10" and 195 lbs and runs a 4.4.
The other guy is 6'6" 240 lbs and runs a 4.4.

One guy runs and passes. The other guy runs and and catches passes. For my money he's a kick returner that has some additional skills. Young is a big strong tough QB who makes his whole team better. And he's been doing it for a while now.

Bush is going to get smothered in the NFL.
Vince is going to have his troubles but end up dominating.