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wenskek
01-10-2006, 07:19 PM
why are some people so blinded by david carr, I personally have not seen anything out of him in the 4 years hes been here to make me think he is the best thing for this franchise. whether the front office wants to admit it or not this franchise is now starting over and in a rebuilding mode, but how can we/they even claim it as a rebuilding mode when nothing was ever really built. And i am tired of hearing the same old stuff about how he has never had an oline because although that might have something to do with, there is much more to it than just the oline. i firmly believe along with many others that if VY recieves appropriate coaching and given time that he will be a better nfl qb than david and would be a great addition for this team and city.

TexansTrueFan
01-10-2006, 07:22 PM
your right so maybe we should get vince young he can "run" and thats what he'll be doing behind our line _running_ and not by choice and that dont leave much time for "passing". :yahoo:

CyberTexan
01-10-2006, 07:27 PM
shoot behind our Oline Young would get hurt bad LOL you seen how skinny and long his legs are ? LOL

gtexan02
01-10-2006, 07:29 PM
Why are you so blinded by VY? David Carr may not have lived up to his potential so far, but what about his 2004 season?

61.2% Completion, 3531 yards, 16 tds, 83.5 passer rating. Those are VERY decent stats

And this year, behind our musical chairs, injury riddled O-Line (AND w/out Andre Johnson and Domanick Davis for a good chunk of the season) STILL completed 60.5% of his passes for 2488 yards and 14 tds (77.2 passer rating)

So, when healthy and having a terrible OLine, Carr put up pretty respectable numbers. This past year, he didn't have the same blockers in front of him pretty much all year, had his #1 and #2 offensive weapons on the sideline a good part of the season, and STILL posted decent stats.

Kaiser Toro
01-10-2006, 07:30 PM
Boy we really brought some fresh takes and zingers to the Carr/Yound debate on this thread. :rolleyes:

Double Barrel
01-10-2006, 07:38 PM
*sigh*

Do you honestly think that any QB in the history of the NFL would have fared any better behind the 2-14 Texans offense? idonno:

Honestly, I haven't seen to much blind loyalty to Carr these days. Obviously there are many folks here that see Vince Young through burnt orange colored glasses, and that's their right. But that seems to be the only prevalent blind loyalty to a player around the forum lately.

HoustonFrog
01-10-2006, 07:42 PM
*sigh*

Do you honestly think that any QB in the history of the NFL would have fared any better behind the 2-14 Texans offense? idonno:

Honestly, I haven't seen to much blind loyalty to Carr these days. Obviously there are many folks here that see Vince Young through burnt orange colored glasses, and that's their right. But that seems to be the only prevalent blind loyalty to a player around the forum lately.

The way I have seen it through a person who would be happy with both draftees is that people either think VY hung the moon or people have 4 years or lame excuses for Carr. I think the answer lies in between. I think VY will eventually be better than Carr. I'm not a Carr fan. However, it doesn't mean that it is best for the Texans now. Bush with some other high to mid round picks and FA for O-line and maybe we can see what Carr can do. I actually agree with the original statement of this post but can see both sides.

TexansTrueFan
01-10-2006, 07:46 PM
i do like VY but i dont see why we need to waste a draft pick on him when we have a Good QB behind a terrible OL. VY would of looked bad too.

thegr8fan
01-10-2006, 07:49 PM
could/would someone answer the topic question please? Come on, I KNOW there are Carr defenders on this board that have talked incessantly about his 'potential greatness', one of you, please just try and explain why you are so blindly loyal to the guy please. I really want to know this answer because personally I find it quite confusing, and up until I get an explanation from Carr's supporters, amusing really.

so anyone wanna take on the topic question? Why is it that (Blank) is so loyal to Carr? Irregardless of his current lack of playing ability as a franchise QB, for whatever reason i.e. O-line, hurt supporting cast of players, poor coaching, etc.

But WHY are you so loyal to Carr? I seriously want to know.

TexansTrueFan
01-10-2006, 07:51 PM
could/would someone answer the topic question please? Come on, I KNOW there are Carr defenders on this board that have talked incessantly about his 'potential greatness', one of you, please just try and explain why you are so blindly loyal to the guy please. I really want to know this answer because personally I find it quite confusing, and up until I get an explanation from Carr's supporters, amusing really.

so anyone wanna take on the topic question? Why is it that (Blank) is so loyal to Carr? Irregardless of his current lack of playing ability as a franchise QB, for whatever reason i.e. O-line, hurt supporting cast of players, poor coaching, etc.

But WHY are you so loyal to Carr? I seriously want to know.


because of what he has done with what he has. Sure he has been so so, but whos to say anyone else could of done better here, noone so i'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. PLUs when he does have protection he can pick apart defenses, we have all see it on few occasions.

Wharton
01-10-2006, 07:54 PM
Boy we really brought some fresh takes and zingers to the Carr/Yound debate on this thread. :rolleyes:

:rofl:

:deadhorse

Obviously there are many folks here that see Vince Young through burnt orange colored glasses, and that's their right.


PS: I am a VY fan and my glasses are Maroon baby!

nunusguy
01-10-2006, 08:04 PM
*sigh*
Obviously there are many folks here that see Vince Young through burnt orange colored glasses, and that's their right.
Young has tremendous potential in the NFL: one story I was reading said if
he could learn to pass like he runs, he possibly could be the greatest NFL QB
ever. But that same article reminded the reader that if he failed to do so,
he might end being just another Kordell Stewart. Rest assured that McNair won't be wearing those burnt orange glasses, because he'll see both the up and the downside.

thegr8fan
01-10-2006, 08:04 PM
because of what he has done with what he has. Sure he has been so so, but whos to say anyone else could of done better here, noone so i'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. PLUs when he does have protection he can pick apart defenses, we have all see it on few occasions.-TexansTrueFan thanks TTF for the honest answer, coupled with a realistic view of Carr's current contributions (highlighted by me in your reply with bold letters). It has been 4 years now, so just out of curiosity how much longer does Carr get from you with his 'current so so play' before you stop giving him the 'benefit of the doubt'?

TexansTrueFan
01-10-2006, 08:11 PM
with change coming to the front office and depending on what they do to help our OL issues i'd say 1 more season to prove his worth. BUT if they dont feel like we can fix the OL in one season and we start "rebuilding" already than sure why not get one of colleges best QBs and start building around him.

Grid
01-10-2006, 08:17 PM
i dont think blinded is the right word. Im not sold on him, but I think he has done enough to show that he deserves another chance in the new system. I think that we can better use our first round pick.

texplayer2
01-10-2006, 08:19 PM
could/would someone answer the topic question please? Come on, I KNOW there are Carr defenders on this board that have talked incessantly about his 'potential greatness', one of you, please just try and explain why you are so blindly loyal to the guy please. I really want to know this answer because personally I find it quite confusing, and up until I get an explanation from Carr's supporters, amusing really.

so anyone wanna take on the topic question? Why is it that (Blank) is so loyal to Carr? Irregardless of his current lack of playing ability as a franchise QB, for whatever reason i.e. O-line, hurt supporting cast of players, poor coaching, etc.

But WHY are you so loyal to Carr? I seriously want to know.

I think his potential for the next few years is as good or better than VY if they were both at Houston. It is not about long term loyalty, this is about us having the ability to help our team. If we give Vince way to much credit and say he is Carr's equal at this very moment, we would still lose out on picking an additional playmaker who makes our team better. And for the short term reason, the man plays for my team.:yahoo: I root for those guys know matter what, you can take your college loyalties and go:grouphug: on campus. I even root for Buchannon to tackle someone, even though he's not real good at it.:ok:

texan279
01-10-2006, 09:00 PM
I am not blinded by Carr, but by the night sky when all of the stars in the sky align and spell Vince Young's name! :)

eriadoc
01-10-2006, 09:33 PM
*sigh*

Do you honestly think that any QB in the history of the NFL would have fared any better behind the 2-14 Texans offense? idonno:

Honestly, I haven't seen to much blind loyalty to Carr these days. Obviously there are many folks here that see Vince Young through burnt orange colored glasses, and that's their right. But that seems to be the only prevalent blind loyalty to a player around the forum lately.

Exactly. i think reasonable, rational people are willing to entertain the idea that Carr may not prove to be the future QB of this team. Until the foundation of this team is fixed, however, it's definitely not clear that he's a failure and there's ample evidence to suggest that a new QB would endure much of the same treatment.

When troubleshooting a problem, change the fewest number of variables between tests as possible - that's basic problem-solving.

Jerry
01-10-2006, 10:10 PM
The thing is, we know what one of our problems definitely is--the o-line...

thegr8fan
01-10-2006, 10:21 PM
The thing is, we know what one of our problems definitely is--the o-line...JerryThe thing is, we know what one of our problems definitely is---David Carr.

see how rediculous this sounds in the 'serious debate/question' type threads.

lets keep the Vince Young is a God debates in some other thread also.

Come on now, I know that there are ALOT more Carr supporters out there. So why can't some of you die-hard, no matter what, Carr supporters give me a simple answer to the question, like TTF did.

I just want to know why some of you Carr supporters are so......well supportive, no matter how poorly Carr has played in his 4 years at Houston.

Family members, and Carr employee's need not answer, it is quite obvious to even me why YOU would support Carr, irregardless.

GP
01-10-2006, 10:22 PM
Since I don't want to run someone off that is fairly new to the boards, let me just say that if you would sort through the threads on a daily basis you'd see that there has been a lot of debate on Carr throughout this season.

I think Carr deserves at least one more year, if not two, because no sane individual can look at this team as a whole and say, "Man, we really had a stinker at QB." Some people paint with a broad brush, and because Carr has made a few bonehead plays (he's the ONLY NFL QB who does so, by the way) and/or has said some boneheaded things in the media (He, too, is the ONLY NFL QB to do so, by the way) then he's a "horrible quarterback" who should be tarred and feathered and ran out of town on a rail.

I choose to think that if a guy like Plummer can resurrect his career, so can Carr. But because everybody has the typical Houston pro sports fever, which includes pouting when they don't get their way and threatening protests etc., then what you have is an environment where Vince Young is the savior and yet three years down the road the next flavor of the month will come along and of course....be the savior of the franchise.

Call me sentimental, but I actually like what they got going in Green Bay in terms of fan base: Those guys freeze their rears off to watch EVERY game at Lambeau whether they are a good team or not. Regardless of whether they get who they want or not, they are there to support their team.

Seems to me that some young goofball named Brett Favre had just been shipped off to Green Bay. He was wild and reckless and looked like Billy Joe Tolliver's cousin, yet Green Bay fans cheered him on when he trotted out onto the field after The Magic Man got injured. And the rest is history. If that had been Houston, and Favre had come here, he'd have been booed out of the town after a few incompletions and interceptions.

People need to slow the emotional roller coaster and just let this franchise do its homework and sort out who is best for this TEAM.

OzzO
01-10-2006, 10:28 PM
I think you answered yourself in the original post
....recieves appropriate coaching and given time....
there are fans out there that feel Carr has not been given either. Time in a sense of what's available behind the line and a full set of players to pass to. Now time in a sense of "in the NFL" - yep, been 4 years and that's about hitting "prime veteranship" now.

For being sacked in the early years... and every year after - tends to result in happy feet. Your boss tells ya that we'll protect you the following year - then decides "protect yourself with a shorter drop and a RT at the LT position - sound good?" Happy feet, take 4.

There's the "lock on" arguement - however, I've seen other QB's do this as well - however, I think others can read the defense better to know where the mismatch is so they can lock on and still make the play.

There's also word that Carr could never check plays - or only check to a run, kinda limited his ability (if it's there) to find the mismatch... no mismatch on a run play.

Personally, I've seen flashes of what could be over the years - so I think it's a general consensus similar to Casserly - if it was the coaching that caused the team to bottom out, fine they're gone. We'll bring in a new staff and Carr / Casserly need to prove they weren't also part of the problem in the next season (possibly two).

I was going to put up some QB stats - but as mentioned in other threads, stats don't tell the whole story and can be skewed in a certain favor. If we get Young - good. If we keep Carr to prove himself - good. I think we're in a good position to improve the team regardless of direction and aquirement in the offseason.

One because Casserly has big brother watching now and off a 2-14 season, there's a better chance of improving off that than not.

tsip
01-10-2006, 10:29 PM
Why are you so blinded by VY? David Carr may not have lived up to his potential so far, but what about his 2004 season?

61.2% Completion, 3531 yards, 16 tds, 83.5 passer rating. Those are VERY decent stats

And this year, behind our musical chairs, injury riddled O-Line (AND w/out Andre Johnson and Domanick Davis for a good chunk of the season) STILL completed 60.5% of his passes for 2488 yards and 14 tds (77.2 passer rating)

So, when healthy and having a terrible OLine, Carr put up pretty respectable numbers. This past year, he didn't have the same blockers in front of him pretty much all year, had his #1 and #2 offensive weapons on the sideline a good part of the season, and STILL posted decent stats.

...post Carr's stats from the 8th game of 2004 forward --last 25 games

thunderkyss
01-10-2006, 10:47 PM
Because Carr is more than like the most sacked quarterback in the last Decade, and he doesn't complain about it......... ever. And he is talented. Can you compare him to Peyton Manning?? Maybe. He's got an arm & he's pretty accurate. He's got some good numbers that really don't make since he's been throwing from his backside, or on the run....

Could any other QB have done better than Carr?? Not Manning(neither of them), not Tom Brady, not Ben Rothlisberg. Bret Favre?? Maybe....... no really, maybe. He makes plays...... and I'm not a Bret Favre fan.....trust me. Donavon......... once again, not a fan. Culpepper(I am a fan), Steve McNair(fan) Michael Vick(not a fan), Jake Plummer(fan) John Elway(fan) Steve Young(fan).
Matt Lienart.... no, but he's going to be great in the NFL........ well maybe not, he's going to the Saints.

If I had to choose between Leinart, and Carr, I don't think I'd give it two seconds. Stay with what we've got, adding Matt doesn't change one Dynamic on our team. Bush?? I really don't see how he's going to make this team better. Give Domanick the Line you want to give Bush, and we'll have a reall running back. One that can pass protect, and run........Same with Wells...Why would we want to take him out of the game, and put a wide reciever/running back into the game. David doesn't have time to throw the ball to anyone.

We need to get a better line(which I don't think we can do in one year), or Get a different Quarterback. If you put Vince Young in next year, I bet we'll have 2 wins in the first eight games. I'd put money on 6 before Christmas.

I'll admit, if Vince Young wasn't going to be in this years draft, I'd be preaching Offensive line, Deffense, Trade down.

But if you see Vince Young like a Michael Vick, I understand why you don't understand.

dat_boy_yec
01-10-2006, 10:50 PM
The thing is, we know what one of our problems definitely is---David Carr.

see how rediculous this sounds in the 'serious debate/question' type threads.

lets keep the Vince Young is a God debates in some other thread also.

Come on now, I know that there are ALOT more Carr supporters out there. So why can't some of you die-hard, no matter what, Carr supporters give me a simple answer to the question, like TTF did.

I just want to know why some of you Carr supporters are so......well supportive, no matter how poorly Carr has played in his 4 years at Houston.

Family members, and Carr employee's need not answer, it is quite obvious to even me why YOU would support Carr, irregardless.

I am not a die-hard, no matter what supporter, but I'll give you an answer. I support Carr because Carr is part of the team that I support. I want the team to show up and play and that is what Carr has done. I don't care if we don't win a superbowl during Carr's tenure or that we didn't make the best personnel choices. What matters to me are that the guys we got go out there and play the best football they can. So far Carr has been out there, how many games has he missed? How many times has he said anything negative about the team? You wanna know why I'm loyal to Carr? It's because Carr has been loyal to the team and he deserves my support. I am glad ppl like you are not in charge of the Texans, because if you don't know how to show your team and players support they would not be loyal or supportive of you. The real question should be why aren't you supportive of Carr.

edo783
01-10-2006, 10:53 PM
...post Carr's stats from the 8th game of 2004 forward --last 25 games

No, he'll posts that makes the point that Carr has the goods and he has been FAILED by the TEAM and the MANAGEMENT. It's easy to make sure someone looks bad by only looking at the bad and ignoring what's good. If we took only your bad test scores from school and ignored that which you did well in....guess what....you would probably look like you were brain dead. That's what your trying to do with Carr. It isn't all good and it isn't all bad and a GREAT deal of the bad had a large amount to do with those who have gone and there is very likely improvement on the horizon.

thunderkyss
01-10-2006, 11:10 PM
I think Carr deserves at least one more year, if not two, because no sane individual can look at this team as a whole and say, "Man, we really had a stinker at QB." Some people paint with a broad brush, and because Carr has made a few bonehead plays (he's the ONLY NFL QB who does so, by the way) and/or has said some boneheaded things in the media (He, too, is the ONLY NFL QB to do so, by the way) then he's a "horrible quarterback" who should be tarred and feathered and ran out of town on a rail.

Now that's not fair....... the read I'm getting is that everyone still loves Carr, we just want to add Vince to the team. If that means we loose Carr, then we loose Carr. I think he is still here, because of the fans more than in spite of them. If Casserly would've gotten rid of Carr in the previous four years, there would've been an uproar.
The ability to draft Vince Young, and the pitiful season we've had, plus the poor performance of the last four years...... changes all that. We (for the most part) don't think Carr sucks....... but we think we can do better.


then what you have is an environment where Vince Young is the savior and yet three years down the road the next flavor of the month will come along and of course....be the savior of the franchise.
Are you under the impression that all the Bush fans have jumped ship, and are now on the Vince Bandwagon?? I'm under the impression most of us are guys who didn't want to waste a pick on a running back. We all understand a number one for MattL just doesn't make sense. Vince is a different story. I believe in spending money on OL/DL. But I see more value in young at #1. I think we'll get some new OL help in the offseason. We're going to have a new offensive system. Everybody is starting at zero. Adding a Quarterback, whether it's Young, or Leinart isn't going to set us back any more. But like I said, trading Carr for Matt doesn't hold any value for me.
[/quote]


Call me sentimental, but I actually like what they got going in Green Bay in terms of fan base: Those guys freeze their rears off to watch EVERY game at Lambeau whether they are a good team or not. Regardless of whether they get who they want or not, they are there to support their team.

If that had been Houston, and Favre had come here, he'd have been booed out of the town after a few incompletions and interceptions.

People need to slow the emotional roller coaster and just let this franchise do its homework and sort out who is best for this TEAM.

Has Carr been getting booed?? I wasn't aware of that.

thegr8fan
01-10-2006, 11:10 PM
dat boy yec, thanks for the response and keeping on topic. I can understand your opinion on Carr and the reason you still root for him. There are some very good points in there. Most of them however fall into my catagory called 'Blind Homerism'.

My opinion on Carr is fairly well known to be very negative. But I really don't want to get into the negatives/positives on Carr, that has been debated to nausea on this board. I am very much interested in why some of you die hard Carr supporters do the things you do, and I can understand and respect yours dat boy yec. I don't agree with them, but I can understand them.

TexanSam
01-10-2006, 11:11 PM
Why do I support Carr? Have you looked who he's had to play around? Domanick Davis was hurt for half this year, and Jonathan Wells sure had to scare the living daylight out of people. Andre Johnson was hurt also for part of the season, and even when he was healthy you could tell he wasn't 100%. And other than Johnson (who was double teamed for most of the season), we had Corey "Can't Catch" Bradford, Jabar Gaffney, Derrick Armstrong, and Jerome Mathis. Not exactly the most talented wide receiver group around. Oh yeah, our offensive line was probably the worst in the NFL. I mean, we had Victor Riley start at both tackles during the season. Weigert went from tackle to guard. Same for Wade. McKinney didn't play center the whole season. No wonder Carr looked uncomfortable behind that line, I don't blame him.

Texanfan4ever
01-10-2006, 11:12 PM
The reason the "Carr supporters" support him, is because other than the few games he missed in year 2, he has played every game since we began. Mostly from his back, and he had 3 years that gradually got better each year. He gets up after each sack, and he plays again. The first year he did just about what Young did at the end of the USC game several times. He scored a lot of touch downs by himself. But more than that, he is a stand up guy, that never gives up. He stands up in the face of disasterous games, and still speaks positively in public. Some of you guys act like everything he does to the media is all he does. You don't have any idea what goes on behind the scenes. He has been at a severe disadvantage since he started and he deserves a chance. I'm ignorant, but name me a QB that came right out of college and started a team and did as well as David has done, been sacked as many times as David has, and is still standing. He deserves the 8 million alone, just for the medical bills he will probably sustain in his old age for the damage that has been done to his body. Up until this season, all you fairweathers weren't crying so loud about Carr. Everyone on this board seems to need a scape goat, and the head of any team is the one who gets it. First Capers, and now that we are rid of him, let's get Carr. Until last Wednesday night, most of this board wanted Reggie Bush,and then wow! See ya to him too. We need guys that can play right now, not sit on the bench and learn. David has proven that, when he has time and coverage, he can get the job done. Is he snakebit, probably, but who wouldn't be. He deserves a chance!!:texflag:

tsip
01-10-2006, 11:13 PM
No, he'll posts that makes the point that Carr has the goods and he has been FAILED by the TEAM and the MANAGEMENT. It's easy to make sure someone looks bad by only looking at the bad and ignoring what's good. If we took only your bad test scores from school and ignored that which you did well in....guess what....you would probably look like you were brain dead. That's what your trying to do with Carr. It isn't all good and it isn't all bad and a GREAT deal of the bad had a large amount to do with those who have gone and there is very likely improvement on the horizon.

...a couple points--first, 2004 was a tale of 2 halves by Carr with the first 7 games very good and the last 9 not good--saying Carr had 3 progressive years is not accurate because he only had 2 and a half such years (39 games less the ones he sat out vs the last 25)

...and, second, I want the management/coaching staff to give everything they can to Carr so that--once and for all-- everyone will know if he is the answer

...and, third, it would be nice if we could build this team more on results and less on excuses

thegr8fan
01-10-2006, 11:14 PM
Has Carr been getting booed?? I wasn't aware of that.yeah, he has been booed several times inside the stadium. Sometimes it is hard to tell who is getting the boo's since there are 11 players there, and sometimes the boo's are directed at the playcalling. But trust me, it has been apparent a few times that the Boo's were directly targeted at CARR.

HardKnockTexan
01-10-2006, 11:23 PM
I guess I'm loyal to a default. I love my team and it's very hard for me to knock any players or coaches involved with the Texans. I was all about Dom Capers and the 3-4 defense untill midway through this season and then I jumped on the pink soap bandwagon.... and honestly.. it hurt. I have a lot of respect for David Carr, even though he is a Cali boy. He was with this team since day one and committed, not only his life, but his entire family's life to this team and city. He has consistantly taken beating after beating and I have not heard him say 1 bad thing yet about our former coaches or his team or teammates. I feel Carr has the tools to get the job done.

With all that being said, I LOVE Vince Young. Im not a Texas fan but I had a chance to watch most of UT's games this year. Every game it was Young that won it for them. Even when he struggled he was still the man that made the Longhorns come out with the win. I never thought that VY would go to the draft this year. Now that he has I'm torn. Honestly, I dont know what to do. I almost feel like we owe Carr a shot to prove himself under a new regime but how could we pass on a talent like Young?? It's a tough call and no matter what happens I'll always bleed Texans battle red and Steel blue!

thegr8fan
01-10-2006, 11:36 PM
I almost feel like we owe Carr a shot to prove himself under a new regime but how could we pass on a talent like Young??I'll vote for that myself. I don't take the Vince Young pick to mean that Carr is out from day one, in fact that would be ludicrous. Young gets drafted and sits out at least the first season and learns how to play NFL football, to me is the optimum situation. Carr gets his shot at shutting people like me up about his 'potential' and plays the first year under a completely new HC and system.

If it turns out to be a Drew Brees/ Phillip Rivers scenario, then so be it. I actually would love to see some of Carr's 'Potential' become a reality. It will be a new experience for me, having waited 4 years for it to magically appear already, I would not be totally against 1 more year of Carr under center.

The interesting part of this thread to me is how only one single person bothered to put up any kind of stats to show how good Carr was. Unfortunately the stats only showed how mediocre he was, and THAT was his BEST year.

I love the Texans as much as the next fan. But to root for a player who is doing poorly, be it Carr, Matt Stevens, Marcus Coleman, or Philip Buchanan simply because they are wearing a Texans uniform is ludicrous to me.

thanks for the responses, and for those that did respond with their reasons, I really am sincere in saying thank you. Your reasons hold as much weight for you, I am sure, as mine do for me.

At least now I can say I understand why some of you support Carr.

thegr8fan
01-11-2006, 12:00 AM
They could just say he sucks let him go, since he is so bad, why hang on to him, because he is a good guy, just asking the Carr haters, why we would hold onto the guy, since he is so bad. we hold onto him to allow Vince Young the time to learn how to play in the NFL. Nothing would please me more, or be a more poetic justice type arrangement than to see Carr on the field and knowing that everytime he looked at the sidelines he would see Vince Young standing there, waiting.

Carr has had more than enough time to display some of his so called 'potential'. I for one can't wait for the next 'potential boy' to show up at the QB spot.

and Hulk75, I am fully aware of why YOU support Carr.

tulexan
01-11-2006, 12:03 AM
I for one can't wait for the next 'potential boy' to show up at the QB spot.


Why do you think Vince is so popular? Because of his potential. Matt Leinart is popular because he is NFL ready.

Napa Auto Parts
01-11-2006, 12:10 AM
The thing is, we know what one of our problems definitely is---David Carr.

see how rediculous this sounds in the 'serious debate/question' type threads.

lets keep the Vince Young is a God debates in some other thread also.

Come on now, I know that there are ALOT more Carr supporters out there. So why can't some of you die-hard, no matter what, Carr supporters give me a simple answer to the question, like TTF did.

I just want to know why some of you Carr supporters are so......well supportive, no matter how poorly Carr has played in his 4 years at Houston.

Family members, and Carr employee's need not answer, it is quite obvious to even me why YOU would support Carr, irregardless.



Let me answer like a Carr Supporter i saw him in college he is going to be great our coaching never game him a chance all those fumbles and interception are the lines fault.

disaacks3
01-11-2006, 12:25 AM
Young has tremendous potential in the NFL: one story I was reading said if he could learn to pass like he runs, he possibly could be the greatest NFL QB ever. Yep, and if my Aunt had balls, she'd be my Uncle. :rolleyes:

Remember that the NFL is all about the pocket passers.
So, before anyone annoints VY as the next messiah, lets remember just how good a certain Fresno State QB looked on paper his final Collegiate Season in comparison.

Vince Young's Senior Season:
ATT CMP % YDS TD INT
212 325 65.2 3,036 26 10

David Carr's Senior Season:
ATT CMP % YDS TD INT
344 539 64.5 4,839 46 9

Yep, Vince had lots of rushing yards as well...that's great if we were planning on building a "one-of-a-kind" offense just for him. If the plan is to run a "standard" or "West Coast" pocket-passing attack, it's not even close as to who the choice would be on paper.

There's certainly no guarantees that Carr would be a star if they fixed the absolutely horrendous PASS BLOCKING O-Line he's been crippled with.

There's also nothing even remotely certain about Vince Young's NFL potential either.

Domanick Davis can't shoulder a 16-game load by himself, he's just too injury prone, and he's run behind a fairly decent RUN BLOCKING line.

I'd like to see David have to worry about another QB "pushing him" for his starting job, but if that means giving up another potential superstar like Reggie Bush or the myriad trade deals that could be made for the #1 pick, it just doesn't make sense.

Bush looked fairly pedestrian against USC; Vince looked lousy against the Aggies. Nobody's perfect and the opposition only gets tougher from here on out!

edo783
01-11-2006, 12:30 AM
Let's see, over 3,500 yards, positive td/int, passer rating better than Brady, completion percentage better than Brady all in the 3rd year of a brand new expansion team and in his third year after being beat like a pinata at fat kids birthday. In the first 6 games of 04 he was the 6th ranked QB with a QB rating of over 100. Yup, those are ALL bad things. Did things go south.....you bet...all OVER the team. Couldn't catch, couldn't stop the run, couldn't get to the QB and couldn't hold a lead. Constantly turned turtle the minute we got any sort of lead eventhough the defense couldn't hold water, much less a lead. Did the second half of 2004 and all of 2005 look bad....absolutly, but the TEAM as a whole gave up on the crap that Capers and company were serving up when the intire league figured out what to do and our CRACK coaching staff couldn't figure out how to manage and counteract what was happening. Then when Carr gets the keys to drive he turns it up big time and then our CRACK coaching staff nixes that. Nope the kid hasn't shown squat. Is all perfect...hardly, but there is some real good talent there that has been horribly mismanaged and not supported with a proper cast around him. Do we owe him, IMO, you bet your backside we do. Min of 1-2 years under a new staff. You would be hard pressed to point to another QB that has been this poorly supported by team quality, coaching and management. Make no mistack about it, I am not a Carr appologist, but I also get pissed off when people only say the negative. As I told another poster, if all that was brought up was you worst tests in school and never any of the ones you past....guess what...you would look about as smart as a door stop. That's what a group of people on here are trying to do to further their agenda to discredit so that anyone they support then looks better whether there is any NFL level play to support it or not.

tulexan
01-11-2006, 12:35 AM
Let me answer like a Carr Supporter i saw him in college he is going to be great our coaching never game him a chance all those fumbles and interception are the lines fault.


Interceptions really aren't a problem with him. His problem is that he doesn't throw more touchdown passes. A lot of QB's would love to have their INT's in the low teens. Brett Favre routinely throws 15-20 interceptions per season. The most that Carr has ever thrown is 15 in his rookie season.

Napa Auto Parts
01-11-2006, 12:36 AM
Let's see, over 3,500 yards, positive td/int, passer rating better than Brady, completion percentage better than Brady all in the 3rd year of a brand new expansion team and in his third year after being beat like a pinata at fat kids birthday. In the first 6 games of 04 he was the 6th ranked QB with a QB rating of over 100. Yup, those are ALL bad things. Did things go south.....you bet...all OVER the team. Couldn't catch, couldn't stop the run, couldn't get to the QB and couldn't hold a lead. Constantly turned turtle the minute we got any sort of lead eventhough the defense couldn't hold water, much less a lead. Did the second half of 2004 and all of 2005 look bad....absolutly, but the TEAM as a whole gave up on the crap that Capers and company were serving up when the intire league figured out what to do and our CRACK coaching staff couldn't figure out how to manage and counteract what was happening. Then when Carr gets the keys to drive he turns it up big time and then our CRACK coaching staff nixes that. Nope the kid hasn't shown squat. Is all perfect...hardly, but there is some real good talent there that has been horribly mismanaged and not supported with a proper cast around him. Do we owe him, IMO, you bet your backside we do. Min of 1-2 years under a new staff. You would be hard pressed to point to another QB that has been this poorly supported by team quality, coaching and management..


So basiclly what you are saying its not how he plays as long as he can come out with good stats i see. thats were i went wrong all this time all i wanted was a QB to win games ala Brady but like you said David Carr is better than Brady the stats say so right LMAO who cares about superbowls:brickwall

bubbajaxonbrown
01-11-2006, 01:00 AM
I write this on every Young vs. Carr thread but I'll say it again...

I am tired of waiting for Carr to "come around" or "develope", but I also do acknowledge the setbacks he has had to endure. I was a huge Carr fan. I was an Oilers fan and when they left Houston I couldn't believe it. I had to turn to the Cowboys for a home-state nfl team. When the Texans finally came I was so happy I "hung the moon" on anyone the Texans chose to be its franchise QB. I read all about Carr before the draft and saw his numbers and fell in love with the thought of having him here. But Carr has been killed the past four years being a record breaking QB...IN SACKS. I'd like to give him a way out. I think Carr is good but that's it. Many have said no other QB could perform without a good OL but I offer you all Rich Gannon in a few years ago. He won the MVP and broke QB single season records with most completed passes. And do you know what? The line was so bad that year in the next draft the Raiders felt the need to draft OT Robert Gallery with their #1 pick (I think 2nd or 3rd overall.

I admit this is the exception to the rule but we have paid Carr a ton of money. I don't have his contract info but a #1 overall gets paid a ton. In 4 years he has not led the offense up to our expectations and gotten killed in the meantime. I don't know about you but I don't believe it is a good deal to pay a guy a 7 year deal for him to only produce the in years 5-7 regardless of the issues. If I were a salesman who was hired at a high salary b/c of my past success and when I came on board every tragedy hit me (death, car-wreck, etc.) I would get canned a lot sooner than 4 years of excuses/tragedies. I know Carr's job is bigger than a sales job so please hold off on the lame "How can you compare sales to an NFL QB?" replies. I am only saying if it took 4 years for a manager at your favorite restaurant to get everything up to par at that restaurant, you would no longer be a customer.

The real world rings in. Some of you are patient b/c you feel this is a sport in which every player could be great given the opportunity. But there are those of us who believe that opportunity is great but tragedy and mishaps are life and can happen to anyone. Carr will be good, but somewhere else. Let's give the kid a chance somewhere else and all of you Carr supporters can hold it against us and in the meantime we can move on to our excuses for Vince or Bush or Leinart or Kubiak or Linehan or .... you see what I'm getting at.

I am of the opinion we should trade Carr (or release him) and draft Young. With his speed, he will be more suited to running for his life behind this OL. Kubiak likes to run the ball. With Young, Davis, Morency, and Wells we could have 3 running backs in the backfield at the same time.

tulexan
01-11-2006, 01:13 AM
The Raiders OL wasn't that bad when Gannon won MVP and they went to the Super Bowl. They picked up Robert Gallery because when you get a chance to get an elite tackle like Robert Gallery you don't pass it up.

bubbajaxonbrown
01-11-2006, 01:29 AM
The Raiders OL wasn't that bad when Gannon won MVP and they went to the Super Bowl. They picked up Robert Gallery because when you get a chance to get an elite tackle like Robert Gallery you don't pass it up.

Here is the Raider's depth chart for OL in 2002:

OLT 65 SIMS, 74 Stinchcomb, 73 Myles
OLG 76 WISNIEWSKI, 73 Middleton, 65 Sims
C 62 TREU, 74 Stinchcomb
ORG 73 MIDDLETON, 79 Collins, 65 Sims
ORT 72 KENNEDY, 77 Ashmore

The only probowler on that depth chart is Lincoln Kennedy. This OL was riddled with injury and perile (Barrett Robbins was in and out throughout the season and ended up going nuts before the Superbowl). Kennedy made the probowl despite nagging injuries.

So the Raiders had 1 good offensive lineman. The Texans have 1 also. The Raiders didn't give up as many sacks but this could be due to the fact that Gannon threw the ball away when under pressure or actually hit the open man (hence the MVP honors).

Can Carr do this in a west coast offense? I don't know. But neither does Carr and I say lets get another tackling dummy and let Carr go while he is still alive.

thunderkyss
01-11-2006, 09:22 AM
Let's see, over 3,500 yards, positive td/int, passer rating better than Brady, completion percentage better than Brady all in the 3rd year of a brand new expansion team and in his third year after being beat like a pinata at fat kids birthday. In the first 6 games of 04 he was the 6th ranked QB with a QB rating of over 100. Yup, those are ALL bad things. Did things go south.....you bet...all OVER the team. Couldn't catch, couldn't stop the run, couldn't get to the QB and couldn't hold a lead. Constantly turned turtle the minute we got any sort of lead eventhough the defense couldn't hold water, much less a lead. Did the second half of 2004 and all of 2005 look bad....absolutly, but the TEAM as a whole gave up on the crap that Capers and company were serving up when the intire league figured out what to do and our CRACK coaching staff couldn't figure out how to manage and counteract what was happening. Then when Carr gets the keys to drive he turns it up big time and then our CRACK coaching staff nixes that. Nope the kid hasn't shown squat. Is all perfect...hardly, but there is some real good talent there that has been horribly mismanaged and not supported with a proper cast around him. Do we owe him, IMO, you bet your backside we do. Min of 1-2 years under a new staff. You would be hard pressed to point to another QB that has been this poorly supported by team quality, coaching and management. Make no mistack about it, I am not a Carr appologist, but I also get pissed off when people only say the negative. As I told another poster, if all that was brought up was you worst tests in school and never any of the ones you past....guess what...you would look about as smart as a door stop. That's what a group of people on here are trying to do to further their agenda to discredit so that anyone they support then looks better whether there is any NFL level play to support it or not.

You are sooooo right. and I agree with you whole heartedly. But if we're going to waste a pick(pick Bush) I'd just as soon waste it on Young.

And while you're at it, look at that Guy @ JacksonVille. Remember what he did his rookie Season?? He misplaced a guy that has gone on to start for the last three years, the QB that started that Franchise.

eriadoc
01-11-2006, 09:48 AM
Here is the Raider's depth chart for OL in 2002:

OLT 65 SIMS, 74 Stinchcomb, 73 Myles
OLG 76 WISNIEWSKI, 73 Middleton, 65 Sims
C 62 TREU, 74 Stinchcomb
ORG 73 MIDDLETON, 79 Collins, 65 Sims
ORT 72 KENNEDY, 77 Ashmore

The only probowler on that depth chart is Lincoln Kennedy. This OL was riddled with injury and perile (Barrett Robbins was in and out throughout the season and ended up going nuts before the Superbowl). Kennedy made the probowl despite nagging injuries.

So the Raiders had 1 good offensive lineman. The Texans have 1 also. The Raiders didn't give up as many sacks but this could be due to the fact that Gannon threw the ball away when under pressure or actually hit the open man (hence the MVP honors).

Can Carr do this in a west coast offense? I don't know. But neither does Carr and I say lets get another tackling dummy and let Carr go while he is still alive.


The Raiders O-line from that year didn't collapse into the QB like our line does. They played as a TEAM and protected Gannon pretty well. Our line has a couple guys that you'd say are individually good talents, but the line as a whole doesn't work together to pick up stunts, switch assignments at the line, or help out on double teams. As a result, you see rushers getting into the QB frequently. Some of those result in sacks and some don't. For every sack David Carr has had to endure, he's had about 4 pressures where he got the ball out or scrambled. That stuff doesn't show up in any stat line (except maybe his rushing yards, which are second only to Vick).

exclude
01-11-2006, 11:00 AM
we hold onto him to allow Vince Young the time to learn how to play in the NFL. Nothing would please me more, or be a more poetic justice type arrangement than to see Carr on the field and knowing that everytime he looked at the sidelines he would see Vince Young standing there, waiting.

Carr has had more than enough time to display some of his so called 'potential'. I for one can't wait for the next 'potential boy' to show up at the QB spot.

and Hulk75, I am fully aware of why YOU support Carr.


Poetic Justice??? Please..that's putting salt on an open wound and why would Carr do that when there 31 OTHER teams willing to vie for his services?

What I want to see, and this is coming not from a Carr fan but more from a Bush fan, is to see Vince, if drafted by us, come in and play behind that unit we call an offensive line.

In fact, I would like Casserly not to upgrade the line, and let Vince find out what Carr had to go through in 2005.

Texan Gal 312
01-11-2006, 11:06 AM
Carr when given time to throw is very accurate. The definition of time to throw being taking a 5 or 7 step drop and being able to step up in the pocket. This also has to occur when we have more than one receiver in the pattern. In this circumstance, he rarely throws bad passes. Of course this circumstance rarely occurs. Many times we went to max protect and reduced the receivers in the pattern. Of course other teams still managed immediate pressure with only 4 pass rushers versus 7 blockers. This left 3 receivers against 7 defensive backs. This does not lead to good offense.
I have read many complaints about his inability to read defenses. Sure he might make some mistakes but ALL quarterbacks do. The most obvious example I can give was Donovan McNabb's interception thrown to Roy Williams that allowed the Cowboys to beat the Eagles.
Many have now jumped on the bandwagon of saying he is not a leader. But they were not saying that after most of the games last year. A leader has to have something to lead. Our offensive schemes were so poor and simplified due to the lack of pass blocking that he had no chance. While I am here - our lack of pass blocking seem to me to be a lack of teamwork more than a lack of skill. Sometimes these guys appeared never to have practiced together. Many times I saw two guys blocking one while another guy came free. Wasn't it the second year when we cut our number of sacks in half ? Why did we abandon the plan -- and bring Pendry on board ? I digress.
Other complaints about Carr - He holds the ball too long and he doesn't look at second receivers. Which is it ? You have to hold the ball longer than a nano second to look at secondary receivers.
I will be convinced Carr will not make an above average NFL quarterback when you see him stepping up to throw the ball and he is still not getting it done. Carr can only dream about the the time Brady, Manning and other successful quarterbacks get to throw the ball.
Yesterday apparently someone did an interview with Dan Reeves. I don't want to quote because I can't remember his exact words. But it went something like David Carr has a lot of talent the surface of which has barely been scratched and he has courage. It was VERY obvious Dan Reeves is recommending to keep David Carr.

geofb
01-11-2006, 11:14 AM
Nothing would please me more, or be a more poetic justice type arrangement than to see Carr on the field and knowing that everytime he looked at the sidelines he would see Vince Young standing there, waiting.



Spoken like a really gr8fan. I hope all the Texans fans aren't gr8 like this.

Dennis007
01-11-2006, 11:34 AM
I really do not understand why people hang on to the David Carr argument, he needs this, he needs that...YES, we need an O-line but despite that there were still MANY opportunitites over a 4 year span to show his "potential".

Give me a break! This guy has not proven himself, even throwing in all the EXCUSES, you can't be sane and think This guy is Franchise material???

He has pulled the bag over everyone's eye - except me- This guy will turn up to be an average QB that no one will remember in a few years. But the Texas EGO can't admit you made a mistake.. Learn how to correct and move on.



:bag: - David Carr Supporters

exclude
01-11-2006, 12:08 PM
I really do not understand why people hang on to the David Carr argument, he needs this, he needs that...YES, we need an O-line but despite that there were still MANY opportunitites over a 4 year span to show his "potential".

Give me a break! This guy has not proven himself, even throwing in all the EXCUSES, you can't be sane and think This guy is Franchise material???

He has pulled the bag over everyone's eye - except me- This guy will turn up to be an average QB that no one will remember in a few years. But the Texas EGO can't admit you made a mistake.. Learn how to correct and move on.


I'm not Carr fan, but I also not a VY nuthugger. I want Bush and if we draft VY we won't get Bush so I'm left trying to defend why we have to give Carr another chance.

He has shown his potential, although not as frequently as we've liked.

And I agree with you that he hasn't shown that he's franchise material, but I think Bush is and if we get that guy I'm sure we would improve from last year's performance.

But why is he a mistake??? Has he lost his touch, like Joey Harrington?? Now that guy can't throw and drafting him at #2 was a mistake. Carr can at least hit a slant route, Harrington can't.

I'll give you that Carr regressed this year, but a confluence of events(or EXCUSES, as you'd like to call them) makes it hard to pinpoint if his regression was due to those events or to his lack of talent, although I can guess where you side on this issue.

If we draft Bush and some good OL help, we at least don't give Carr an out, if his play continues the way it is.

Double Barrel
01-11-2006, 01:20 PM
I really do not understand why people hang on to the David Carr argument, he needs this, he needs that...YES, we need an O-line

You pretty much answered your own question and defeated your own logic.

Pocket protection is the key to any successful QB. It's Football 101. :ok:

TheOgre
01-11-2006, 03:54 PM
Our defense played into this 2-14 season too. Against Cinci we had 6 possessions that didn't start in the last 2 minutes of a half. Not many teams are going to win games like that.

Texan Gal 312
01-11-2006, 04:10 PM
Attention Carr lovers, attention. It is no surprise that the OL looks bad. It is Carr himself that makes them look worse than they are.

That is a fact. There is no way you can blame it all on the OL for this guy being sacked that many times.

Carr holds the ball to long.
Carr can't read a defense.
Carr stares down his primary receiver.
Carr runs out of bounds for losses (sacks).
Example: 1-10-HOU32 (2:27) (Shotgun) D.Carr sacked ob at HST 30 for -2 yards (R.Colclough). PATHETIC. You could throw the ball 20 yards out of bounds but not this guy. He will take the sack. Of course, it's the OL's fault that he is too dumb to throw the ball away.

Carr......

And why exactly should I rely on your opinion more than Dan Reeves ? And I saw Tom Brady take that exact same sack this past weekend

Mr. White
01-11-2006, 04:17 PM
And why exactly should I rely on your opinion more than Dan Reeves ?

As an aside, as a VY supporter, I find it it a little easier to swallow when Dan Reeves says he'd rather stay with David Carr than when Casserley says it.

dml923
01-11-2006, 06:51 PM
i like carr, but he is getting worse but that is becasue a bad o line only holds for a very short time. that causes him to create bad descisions on throws and he probally thinks that he should carry the team.

Grid
01-11-2006, 07:03 PM
the pointless arguement continues. For every positive thing you can say about Carr..there is something that someone can say to counter it.

If they say prove that Carr isnt a complete bust, and you show them his good stats.. they say "its not all about stats"

Show them the times when Carr has carried the team, or proved that he could run the offense, and they will claim that Carr isnt a leader like VY, and quote Gary Walker or someone to prove it.

Tell them that the line is the biggest problem and that no QB has ever done well behind a bad Oline.. and they will claim that the sacks are more Carrs fault for holding the ball and staring down recievers.

Tell them that bad coaching was the problem, and that Carr wasnt given enough freedom.. and they will claim that a true leader would have stood up to the coaches and taken control of the team.

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Dont waste your time. They will want VY no matter what.. and if we dont take him.. every bad play Carr makes will be met with 100 "why didnt we take VY?" posts. And if Carr plays great and goes to the pro bowl, they will reply with 100 "we would have been in the superbowl with VY".. and if Carr turns out to be a bust and we have to replace him.. 1000000s will make "fire the coaches! fire Casserly! we should have taken VY!!!!" posts.. and if we get a new QB and he comes in and does well and we make it to the playoffs.. there will be 100s of "We would have been here last year with VY" posts.

There is no winning.. the only way to win with these people is to draft VY. And then when VY plays poorly.. they will say "Why did we take VY? I didnt support this bum..I wanted Bush".. and then when we get laughed at for drafting a bust while Reggie Bush and the Titans run all over us.. they will reply with 100s of "Our staff is weak for listening to their fans. Everyone knows that a good front office will make the best decision for the team, and not let the fans sway their judgement".. of course.. if VY plays well.. they will be insufferable with all of their "HAH! What did I say? UT FO LIFE PLAYA!" posts.

No matter what happens.. expect that it will be years before this board is free of this stupid and annoying arguement. This place is gonna be a drag for a good long time.

tulexan
01-11-2006, 07:10 PM
No the Vince fans have said several times that they would be proud to watch him even if he turns out to be a bust because he is from Houston.

HoustonFan
01-11-2006, 07:19 PM
I still think Carr has potential. Let's see how he does w/ - I HOPE - an improved O-line.

This was a bad season for the whole team. He has been hella quiet amongst all this talk of VY.

Xman
01-11-2006, 07:35 PM
I think the commentators summed it up during the Ravens games this year. They pointed out that Carr only had enough time to look at one WR - then he either had to throw it away or be sacked (or dump it off if the first guy missed).

One of the KEY requirements of a good QB is the ability to "check off your WRs". If AJ is covered, check Bradford, if covered then check TE/RB or throw it away.
With our OL, their is no time to check Bradford. It it AJ and then either a sack/dump off/throw away.

Carr has shown a good attitude and personality, an accurate arm (better than most), a strong arm, and decent ability to read defenses. On the down side, he is not the most mobile and could adjust better after the snap. But, the key factor is making the reads. IF he shows the ability to make the reads, then I think he moves into the top 10 qbs (which is good enough to win).

If Carr had more time (the announcers pointed out that Carr got almost 2 seconds less than other QBs to throw) and then couldn't make the reads, then I would say dump him. But, we don't know that. The way it is (especially during the Ravens game), the opposing secondary reads Carr and collapses to whichever WR he looks at. So, as of now, we just don't know how good he is.

dat_boy_yec
01-11-2006, 08:19 PM
What I see most of the time is ppl come on here being bias. It is a team game and if you say Carr sucks it's because you don't understand the meaning of team. People who say, oh it's all the o-lines fault don't seem to understand that the RB has to pick up blitzes sometimes and if he doesn't do it right the QB will go down. They don't understand that if they keep Carr they have a huge cap hit and drafting Young and trading Carr one yr. from now would not solve anything. Because if you pay 2 first pick QB's in one yr. you don't have money to spend. You won't be able to upgrade the line because you won't have money to offer. I support the team, but alot of fans coming on here don't really understand that the team has to share the blame and blaming Carr is pointless.

HJam72
01-11-2006, 10:00 PM
What I see most of the time is ppl come on here being bias. It is a team game and if you say Carr sucks it's because you don't understand the meaning of team. People who say, oh it's all the o-lines fault don't seem to understand that the RB has to pick up blitzes sometimes and if he doesn't do it right the QB will go down. They don't understand that if they keep Carr they have a huge cap hit and drafting Young and trading Carr one yr. from now would not solve anything. Because if you pay 2 first pick QB's in one yr. you don't have money to spend. You won't be able to upgrade the line because you won't have money to offer. I support the team, but alot of fans coming on here don't really understand that the team has to share the blame and blaming Carr is pointless.

DD doesn't help the line. Carr can't throw from his back. FOOTBALL IS A TEAM SPORT. That was great post. :redtowel:

thunderkyss
01-11-2006, 10:28 PM
What I see most of the time is ppl come on here being bias. It is a team game and if you say Carr sucks it's because you don't understand the meaning of team. People who say, oh it's all the o-lines fault don't seem to understand that the RB has to pick up blitzes sometimes and if he doesn't do it right the QB will go down. They don't understand that if they keep Carr they have a huge cap hit and drafting Young and trading Carr one yr. from now would not solve anything. Because if you pay 2 first pick QB's in one yr. you don't have money to spend. You won't be able to upgrade the line because you won't have money to offer. I support the team, but alot of fans coming on here don't really understand that the team has to share the blame and blaming Carr is pointless.
Brunnel, Leftwich. how much money did that tie up?
Brees, Rivers?? How much??
Montana, Young?? Okay, that was a long time ago.
But don't tell me you can't do it. We can take Carr with a two year extension. $5mill. We play him next year, if we let him go for the 2007 year, it'll cost us $2.5mil that we won't be able to pay an offensive lineman. We can keep him that year $2.5 million is pretty sweet for a 1st round quarterback. It won't cost us any more, to sign Young, than it would to sign Bush. We can ditch Tony Banks, what's he still doing around.....

speaking of which, every argument we can make for Carr, we can make for Tony Banks, Jeff Blake, and a whole Gamut of Quarterbacks that have shown potential, but didn't get 4 years to prove themselves.

thunderkyss
01-11-2006, 10:44 PM
Wow, I just checked the sats on Leftwich. His numbers are pretty poor compared to David Carr's, but we wouldn't be having this discussion if he were a Houston Texan. Interceptions are the same too, except 2005, when they dropped by more than half............. for Leftwich that is.

He played in 15 games his rookie season, 13 games started.

hmmm... he's 6-5 240lbs... good size for a quarterback. Interesting.

thunderkyss
01-11-2006, 10:59 PM
Hmmm... McNabb sat on the bench his first year, only started 6 games.

He was their starter for the next 4 years. He was sacked 265 times...... that's more than car.... 50 sacks more than carr in his first four years.
Threw for 12,000 yards those first four years. would've been more, but he missed six games in 2002. Of course, he had thos awesome recievers....you know, uh.... for the life of me, I can't remember their names. But I'm sure they were both ProBowlers between 2000, and 2003.

He threw about as many ints as Carr, but that's just Donavan....

hmmm. He avg 3000yrds per year... 10 picks a year...

But we wouldn't be talking about Young, if McNabb was Our QB.

thunderkyss
01-11-2006, 11:09 PM
Wow, Drew Brees was drafted in 2001, didn't play one game. Started all the games in 2002, missed 5 in 2003, 1 in 2004. Threw 79 touchdowns, and 53 picks. David has thrown 43 touchdowns, and 53 picks. over the same time more or less. Of course, SanDiego has that future hall of fame Wide reciever.... no, that's another team. He's thrown for three thousand (3000) yards every year he started except 2003, when he missed 5 games. That year, he looked more like Carr...... he only got sacked 93 times though. So that's definitely part of that. His numbers are an awful lot like Carr's, his first two years........ but they drafted a QB anyway..... what were they thinking??

thunderkyss
01-11-2006, 11:17 PM
Joey Harrington... Started all games, in 2003, and 2005. Threw for 3000 yards both years......... almost. Started 12 Games in 2002, threw for 2200 yards. Started 11 games in 2005, threw for 2000 yards. 60 touchdowns, but 62 ints to go with them. man he averaged one touchdown a game.

I can't believe they are already looking for another QB.

thunderkyss
01-11-2006, 11:27 PM
If you don't mind, I'm having a hard time finding another Quarterback of Carr's Caliber that has had 4 years before they were successful.

profan
01-11-2006, 11:38 PM
Brunnel, Leftwich. how much money did that tie up?
Brees, Rivers?? How much??
Montana, Young?? Okay, that was a long time ago.
But don't tell me you can't do it. We can take Carr with a two year extension. $5mill. We play him next year, if we let him go for the 2007 year, it'll cost us $2.5mil that we won't be able to pay an offensive lineman. We can keep him that year $2.5 million is pretty sweet for a 1st round quarterback. It won't cost us any more, to sign Young, than it would to sign Bush. We can ditch Tony Banks, what's he still doing around.....
.
But, what happens if carr has a great year. Then what do you do? Can't keep a high priced vince young on the bench or What if carr has a few bad games and is replaced by young. Then his value drops. If young comes here we have to trade carr and get what we can now. This is going to be a very difficult decision. How about trading carr for another pick this year. I don't see leinart playing for the saints. I could see him going to the titans. Then where would that leave Steve McNair. Maybe in Houston to help his good freind Vince Young? This is really going to be interesting.

tulexan
01-11-2006, 11:44 PM
If you don't mind, I'm having a hard time finding another Quarterback of Carr's Caliber that has had 4 years before they were successful.

Steve Young.

Jake Plummer.

tulexan
01-11-2006, 11:50 PM
Hmmm... McNabb sat on the bench his first year, only started 6 games.

He was their starter for the next 4 years. He was sacked 265 times...... that's more than car.... 50 sacks more than carr in his first four years.


McNabb has been sacked 234 times in his 7 year career.

I don't know where you got him being sacked 265 times in the first 4 years.

texplayer2
01-11-2006, 11:53 PM
...

But we wouldn't be talking about Young, if McNabb was Our QB.

What? If Mcnabb was our QB UT ALUMS:rolleyes: would be throwing him under a rug to get to Vince. Talk would center around where his Mom was getting that soup. New York City!? Get a Rope!

eriadoc
01-12-2006, 11:39 AM
If you don't mind, I'm having a hard time finding another Quarterback of Carr's Caliber that has had 4 years before they were successful.

Steve Young
Jake Plummer
Doug Williams
Jim Plunkett

There are other examples of QBs that have been on poor teams, bounced around and landed on a good team, and subsequently made the Pro Bowl and/or Super Bowl with good performances:

Chris Chandler (on terrible teams (IND, TB, PHO, HOU), then goes to ATL and performs well. Made Pro Bowl two years in a row and Super Bowl in 1998.

Doug Flutie is a guy that has bounced around, has shown considerable potential throughout his career, and when he's been on poor teams, his stats have reflected it. When he has a surrounding cast (and gets a chance to play), he's actually put up some good full seasons.

Rich Gannon was drafted by a bad Minnesota team. He never amounted to much, yet people kept saying he was a better QB than people gave him credit for. Once he got to a good team, you know the rest.

Steve McNair is a guy that sat on the bench to learn. All the learning in the world didn't help at all until the team around him was fixed. He put up pretty pedestrian numbers and ran a lot. When the team around him improved, he went tot he Pro Bowl, Super Bowl, and won co-MVP (not in that order). If the Titans had lost patience with him and shipped him off .......

Anyway, if you're having problems finding another QB, perhaps you should work on your methodology. There are plenty more stories of QBs that were drafted by bad teams and went on to make a solid career for themselves once that team (or a different one to which they were traded) improved around them. It's a team sport and the QB, whoever it is, always gets too much blame when things are going poorly and too much credit when things are going well.

Kaiser Toro
01-12-2006, 11:48 AM
Steve Young
Jake Plummer
Doug Williams
Jim Plunkett

There are other examples of QBs that have been on poor teams, bounced around and landed on a good team, and subsequently made the Pro Bowl and/or Super Bowl with good performances:

Chris Chandler (on terrible teams (IND, TB, PHO, HOU), then goes to ATL and performs well. Made Pro Bowl two years in a row and Super Bowl in 1998.

Doug Flutie is a guy that has bounced around, has shown considerable potential throughout his career, and when he's been on poor teams, his stats have reflected it. When he has a surrounding cast (and gets a chance to play), he's actually put up some good full seasons.

Rich Gannon was drafted by a bad Minnesota team. He never amounted to much, yet people kept saying he was a better QB than people gave him credit for. Once he got to a good team, you know the rest.

Steve McNair is a guy that sat on the bench to learn. All the learning in the world didn't help at all until the team around him was fixed. He put up pretty pedestrian numbers and ran a lot. When the team around him improved, he went tot he Pro Bowl, Super Bowl, and won co-MVP (not in that order). If the Titans had lost patience with him and shipped him off .......

Anyway, if you're having problems finding another QB, perhaps you should work on your methodology. There are plenty more stories of QBs that were drafted by bad teams and went on to make a solid career for themselves once that team (or a different one to which they were traded) improved around them. It's a team sport and the QB, whoever it is, always gets too much blame when things are going poorly and too much credit when things are going well.

Good stuff Eriadoc. Goes to my point that you should not draft a QB at #1. This is what we wrestle with in the corporate world, paying to train a workforce that may move on to another company. QB's take time to develop and to invest #1 money in them is foolish.

Vinny
01-12-2006, 11:58 AM
Good stuff Eriadoc. Goes to my point that you should not draft a QB at #1. This is what we wrestle with in the corporate world, paying to train a workforce that may move on to another company. QB's take time to develop and to invest #1 money in them is foolish.It's not foolish...it's a risk. There are hundreds of players coming into the league and only a handful of players capable of being a great QB in a given year. If you need a QB and you think you have a shot at a good one, you got to take him.

Kaiser Toro
01-12-2006, 12:02 PM
It's not foolish...it's a risk. There are hundreds of players coming into the league and only a handful of players capable of being a great QB in a given year. If you need a QB and you think you have a shot at a good one, you got to take him.

Big risk in my opinion, which is foolish. A return on investment calculation from a football standpoint does not bear out championships in the salary cap era. From a marketing standpoint, to capture revenue streams, it is not so risky - Vick, Manning, Manning, etc.

Vinny
01-12-2006, 12:05 PM
Big risk in my opinion, which is foolish. A return on investment calculation from a football standpoint does not bear out championships in the salary cap era. From a marketing standpoint, to capture revenue streams, it is not so risky - Vick, Manning, Manning, etc.When you don't have a decent qb the bigger risk is not taking an elite prospect. The money isn't that big an issue. Carr has not played up to his money but his contract isn't killing us...it's his bad play.

Double Barrel
01-12-2006, 12:13 PM
It's not foolish...it's a risk. There are hundreds of players coming into the league and only a handful of players capable of being a great QB in a given year. If you need a QB and you think you have a shot at a good one, you got to take him.

Part of me thinks drafting Young could be a great thing. Carr has never been challenged for the starting job. In four years, the QB position has been his to lose.

Granted, I'm not as down on DC as a lot of folks, because I think he's been playing on a bad team. But regardless, he does show troublesome tendencies that he has not grown out of since college. I'm sure a beating of 200+ sacks in four seasons can stunt some growth, but it can't be all that.

Bringing in Young, to sit and learn, does not mean Carr is out the door. If DC rises to the occassion and becomes a great QB, then fantastic! Young still has great potential and would be worth a lot to other teams. However, if we learn that DC is just not all that even with a great cast around him, then we have a potential superstud QB waiting in the wings.

I'm not on the Young bandwagon, but the moment they draft him (if it happens), I'll be a huge supporter. However, I do see the upside of him being on our team.

Bush or Young, Bush or Young...either choice is a good thing, IMO. :howdy:

Kaiser Toro
01-12-2006, 12:14 PM
When you don't have a decent qb the bigger risk is not taking an elite prospect. The money isn't that big an issue. Carr has not played up to his money but his contract isn't killing us...it's his bad play.

I agree to an extent, but it is a prodcutivity per head calculation. Any CEO would be hesitant to spend so much money knowing that any ROI would not kick in until year two or three if at all. I just think we are better off taking a QB in the late rounds and develop them at a small price tag or bring in a veteran QB that has been in the league and just needs to be tweaked.

Once I am only speaking in football terms, not licensing, tickets, etc.

Vinny
01-12-2006, 12:17 PM
I agree to an extent, but it is a prodcutivity per head calculation. Any CEO would be hesitant to spend so much money knowing that any ROI would not kick in until year two or three if at all. I just think we are better off taking a QB in the late rounds and develop them at a small price tag or bring in a veteran QB that has been in the league and just needs to be tweaked.

Once I am only speaking in football terms, not licensing, tickets, etc. Carr will cost us big when we pick him up. We aren't spending less money if we take Young or take any other first round pick. I see your argument though. It's not a bad one, and I think it has a bit of merit...here are a few words from Keith at HPF...I consider Keith one of the brightest football minds regardless of team affiliation on the net...

David does not need to be the best quarterback in order for the Texans to reach the Super Bowl. Aside from guys like Tom Brady, John Elway, and Brett Favre, just look at some of the names that have played for the Lombardi in recent years.

So fine, keep Carr and build around him better this time around. But realize that the Texans are going to be paying Carr like he was one of those elite quarterbacks, probably for the next three years, based on potential, not his performance, and a long list of excuses (expansion team, bad coaching, bad OL, etc.) Iirc, his base salary alone will rank him around 8th or 9th in 2006, higher once guys like Steve McNair and Kerry Collins re-work their deals or get cut.

Keeping Carr around for the next 2-3 years sounds like the safe pick, one that wouldn't require "starting over" (whatever that means for a 2-14 team), but it isn't necessarily the most cost-effective option, either, unless you think he will perform like a top 10 QB or better.

MorKnolle
01-12-2006, 12:19 PM
Part of me thinks drafting Young could be a great thing. Carr has never been challenged for the starting job. In four years, the QB position has been his to lose.

Granted, I'm not as down on DC as a lot of folks, because I think he's been playing on a bad team. But regardless, he does show troublesome tendencies that he has not grown out of since college. I'm sure a beating of 200+ sacks in four seasons can stunt some growth, but it can't be all that.

Bringing in Young, to sit and learn, does not mean Carr is out the door. If DC rises to the occassion and becomes a great QB, then fantastic! Young still has great potential and would be worth a lot to other teams. However, if we learn that DC is just not all that even with a great cast around him, then we have a potential superstud QB waiting in the wings.

I'm not on the Young bandwagon, but the moment they draft him (if it happens), I'll be a huge supporter. However, I do see the upside of him being on our team.

Bush or Young, Bush or Young...either choice is a good thing, IMO. :howdy:

In general I would agree with you and I also think we need to bring in someone that is more capable of pushing and mentoring David Carr than what Tony Banks has done, however, I don't think you use the #1 pick in the draft on a 2nd option at QB. Sure Vince could turn into a great QB, but any QB in the league has the potential to turn into something special. I think Carr's two biggest problems have been coaching and lack of surrounding talent. The coaching aspect covers both the horrendous play calling for the majority of the last four years (remember, Carr still put up over 3500 yards a year ago) in addition to the lack of a good QB coach/offensive coordinator helping him improve his skills on the practice field and during the offseason, and the lack of talent aspect is obvious enough. I think if a team is put into position to either fill several of the holes on the team out of one pick (obviously trading it), or add a good playmaker to assist their QB (drafting Bush, which I'm still not real high on but I'd prefer over taking Vince) then you have to take one of those options, rather than using the 1st pick in the draft and all that money on bringing in a 2nd option at QB to hope that one of the two works out (that's the impression I'm getting from your post, maybe I'm misunderstanding it).

Jottoz
01-12-2006, 12:26 PM
I agree with you Morknolle.

Kaiser Toro
01-12-2006, 12:28 PM
Carr will cost us big when we pick him up. We aren't spending less money if we take Young or take any other first round pick. I see your argument though. It's not a bad one, and I think it has a bit of merit...here are a few words from Keith at HPF...I consider Keith one of the brightest football minds regardless of team affiliation on the net...

I agree and understand the idea that a release of Carr and pick up of VY could be considered a wash on the books. But then we are back to square one on the development of a QB and ROI on the field is possibly slapping us in the face again.

We want to win and we all have different ideas on how to get there. I take more of a financial approach to how the make up of the team should look like (which does not make me right) ala the Patriots.

tsip
01-12-2006, 12:29 PM
I agree to an extent, but it is a prodcutivity per head calculation. Any CEO would be hesitant to spend so much money knowing that any ROI would not kick in until year two or three if at all. I just think we are better off taking a QB in the late rounds and develop them at a small price tag or bring in a veteran QB that has been in the league and just needs to be tweaked.

Once I am only speaking in football terms, not licensing, tickets, etc.

First, Carr is going into year 5 with no ROI. Second, you want another QB with the talent/ability to push Carr's play to a higher level, not just someone to sit around and draw a paycheck. We've already got later round QB's and a veteran QB--what we haven't had so far is a winning combo.

Vinny
01-12-2006, 12:31 PM
I agree and understand the idea that a release of Carr and pick up of VY could be considered a wash on the books. But then we are back to square one on the development of a QB and ROI on the field is possibly slapping us in the face again.

We want to win and we all have different ideas on how to get there. I take more of a financial approach to how the make up of the team should look like (which does not make me right) ala the Patriots.It's not a wash if you don't think Carr is an elite QB and you think Young will be. We are more than one year away in any case.

ala the Patriots? They did the same thing we did...they drafted a QB with the first overall also. The Patriots had their own 1st overall pick that didn't work out and his name is Drew Bledsoe. They were ready to move Bledose and his dissapointing play but he got injured and Brady came in and played better than their first overall pick. Nobody thought Brady would turn out like he has...or he wouldn't have been picked late in the second day of the draft.

tulexan
01-12-2006, 12:50 PM
It's not a wash if you don't think Carr is an elite QB and you think Young will be. We are more than one year away in any case.

ala the Patriots? They did the same thing we did...they drafted a QB with the first overall also. The Patriots had their own 1st overall pick that didn't work out and his name is Drew Bledsoe. They were ready to move Bledose and his dissapointing play but he got injured and Brady came in and played better than their first overall pick. Nobody thought Brady would turn out like he has...or he wouldn't have been picked late in the second day of the draft.


OK, then lets take a QB in the 6th round. The Pats didn't take Tom Brady with the #1 overall pick and give him $55-60 million.

That's the major difference

El Tejano
01-12-2006, 12:54 PM
rather than using the 1st pick in the draft and all that money on bringing in a 2nd option at QB to hope that one of the two works out (that's the impression I'm getting from your post, maybe I'm misunderstanding it).
Plus it eliminates the QB controversy once Carr makes a bad throw.

Kaiser Toro
01-12-2006, 12:54 PM
It's not a wash if you don't think Carr is an elite QB and you think Young will be. We are more than one year away in any case.

ala the Patriots? They did the same thing we did...they drafted a QB with the first overall also. The Patriots had their own 1st overall pick that didn't work out and his name is Drew Bledsoe. They were ready to move Bledose and his dissapointing play but he got injured and Brady came in and played better than their first overall pick. Nobody thought Brady would turn out like he has...or he wouldn't have been picked late in the second day of the draft.

A wash as far as the books are concerned (dollars spent).

My take on the Patriots is on their current front office on how they have built and continue build this team. Your take on Bledsoe amplifies my point on the development of a QB selected with the #1.

Kaiser Toro
01-12-2006, 12:55 PM
[QUOTE=tsip]Second, you want another QB with the talent/ability to push Carr's play to a higher level, not just someone to sit around and draw a paycheck.QUOTE]

The time for that has come and passed in my opinion. You should know how I feel about Carr.

MorKnolle
01-12-2006, 01:11 PM
Didn't Brady take over when Bledsoe got hurt? The Patriots weren't disappointed with Bledsoe's performance, he had some great seasons there, but the team never went anywhere. I don't think the team's success had so much to do with Brady being the QB vs. Bledsoe, I think much more of it had to do with bringing in the new coaching staff and building up the rest of the team, and I also agree that this is different because Brady was a 6th round pick that was meant to be a backup, not a #1 overall that was going to get paid $60 million to sit the bench for a year or two and everntually was supposed to replace their starting QB, he was supposed to be the backup, got an opportunity because of an injury, and he took full advantage of the situation he was put in, not to mention he had a great team around him within a year or so and had one of the best coaching staffs ever leading the way.

Vinny
01-12-2006, 01:49 PM
My take on the Patriots is on their current front office on how they have built and continue build this team. Your take on Bledsoe amplifies my point on the development of a QB selected with the #1.If you think the odds are low with the elite prospects...just try building your QB stable by waiting on the lesser prospects later in the draft. The odds of finding a franchise calibler QB are much much lower and your wait will likely be much much longer.

Kaiser Toro
01-12-2006, 01:55 PM
If you think the odds are low with the elite prospects...just try building your QB stable by waiting on the lesser prospects later in the draft. The odds of finding a franchise calibler QB are much much lower and your wait will likely be much much longer.

I kind of feel like I am in a Ratt video right now, Round and Round. :) I'm exhausted, we both know what we each would like to do and we are most likely not going to sway one another. Que sera sera and I will be a fan regardless. ;)

thunderkyss
01-12-2006, 01:58 PM
Steve Young
Jake Plummer
Doug Williams
Jim Plunkett

There are other examples of QBs that have been on poor teams, bounced around and landed on a good team, and subsequently made the Pro Bowl and/or Super Bowl with good performances:

Chris Chandler (on terrible teams (IND, TB, PHO, HOU), then goes to ATL and performs well. Made Pro Bowl two years in a row and Super Bowl in 1998.

Doug Flutie is a guy that has bounced around, has shown considerable potential throughout his career, and when he's been on poor teams, his stats have reflected it. When he has a surrounding cast (and gets a chance to play), he's actually put up some good full seasons.

Rich Gannon was drafted by a bad Minnesota team. He never amounted to much, yet people kept saying he was a better QB than people gave him credit for. Once he got to a good team, you know the rest.

Steve McNair is a guy that sat on the bench to learn. All the learning in the world didn't help at all until the team around him was fixed. He put up pretty pedestrian numbers and ran a lot. When the team around him improved, he went tot he Pro Bowl, Super Bowl, and won co-MVP (not in that order). If the Titans had lost patience with him and shipped him off .......

Anyway, if you're having problems finding another QB, perhaps you should work on your methodology. There are plenty more stories of QBs that were drafted by bad teams and went on to make a solid career for themselves once that team (or a different one to which they were traded) improved around them. It's a team sport and the QB, whoever it is, always gets too much blame when things are going poorly and too much credit when things are going well.


If any of those guys were traded inside of 4 years, they don't count. That goes to prove my point. None of those guys were starters for 4 years, performing like Carr, and not getting traded. None except for Plummer, who was given a fifth year to get his stock up, like I think we should give Carr.

If you like Carr, and want him to succeed, all these examples in your post is evidence that we need to trade him. It would be the best thing to do for David, and it'll be the Best thing to do for the Texans.

Double Barrel
01-12-2006, 02:05 PM
Carr will cost us big when we pick him up. We aren't spending less money if we take Young or take any other first round pick. I see your argument though. It's not a bad one, and I think it has a bit of merit...here are a few words from Keith at HPF...I consider Keith one of the brightest football minds regardless of team affiliation on the net...

You make a very valid point, along with that article by Keith at HPF. When looked at through the perspective that Carr will be one of the top paid QBs in the league, it definitely makes you have to stop and think for a second.

In spite of being on a really bad team, the key is determining if Carr has what it takes to eventually be an elite QB worthy of that paycheck. It's tough to sift through the evidence, because so many things work in tandem with each other on a team sport.

But if you asked me point blank, does Carr deserve elite QB money, at this point and seeing what we have seen, I'd have to give an honest answer of "no" right now.

It's a gamble no matter what we do. But it does appear that keeping Carr/drafting Bush has higher stakes at the poker table, because the amount of money tied up in two players can really hinder a team's ability to acquire more talent around them. And without those key pieces being added, no amount of potential is going to win games.

thunderkyss
01-12-2006, 02:11 PM
I agree to an extent, but it is a prodcutivity per head calculation. Any CEO would be hesitant to spend so much money knowing that any ROI would not kick in until year two or three if at all. I just think we are better off taking a QB in the late rounds and develop them at a small price tag or bring in a veteran QB that has been in the league and just needs to be tweaked.

Once I am only speaking in football terms, not licensing, tickets, etc.

RonDayne, Cedric Benson, Ricky Williams, Marshall Faulk..... none of them did as good as Dominik Davis his Rookie season, or the three years following. None of them.
You can't gaurantee any of your first round picks are going to pay off their rookie season, unless he's on Defense.

Byron Leftwhich, Daunte Culpepper, Donavan Mcnabb were all very impressive their rookie year. At least they bought the organization at least two years to get it right.

GoBlue
01-12-2006, 02:22 PM
If you could trade Carr right now for any QB in the league OUTSIDE OF THE TOP TEN, who would you rather have? I just don't have that much of a problem paying him the 9th or 10th highest salary because I think the potential is still there. Exclude these top ten QB's then tell me who you would rather have:

1. Peyton Manning
2. Carson Palmer
3. Donovan McNabb
4. Tom Brady
5. Ben Rothlesberger
6. Michael Vick
7. Eli Manning
8. Daunte Culpepper
9. Jake Plummer
10. Byron Leftwich

who wants Kyle Boller? anyone for Rex Grossman? how about a slow footed Drew Bledsoe behind our line?

I just think Carr has the ability to do more once more weapons arrive (Bush) and maybe our defense can improve so they don't have to score 30 pts to win every week.

stevo3883
01-12-2006, 02:23 PM
RonDayne, Cedric Benson, Ricky Williams, Marshall Faulk..... none of them did as good as Dominik Davis his Rookie season, or the three years following. None of them.
You can't gaurantee any of your first round picks are going to pay off their rookie season, unless he's on Defense.

Byron Leftwhich, Daunte Culpepper, Donavan Mcnabb were all very impressive their rookie year. At least they bought the organization at least two years to get it right.


Culpepper didnt play any his rookie year
mcnabb threw for 948 yds and 8td 7int
leftwich was decent with 2800yds 14tds

eriadoc
01-12-2006, 02:40 PM
If any of those guys were traded inside of 4 years, they don't count. That goes to prove my point. None of those guys were starters for 4 years, performing like Carr, and not getting traded. None except for Plummer, who was given a fifth year to get his stock up, like I think we should give Carr.

If you like Carr, and want him to succeed, all these examples in your post is evidence that we need to trade him. It would be the best thing to do for David, and it'll be the Best thing to do for the Texans.

Actually, it's evidence that once the team improves, you'll see better numbers from Carr. McNair's numbers were not good for his first four years and the team didn't trade him, because they recognized that the team sucked. Doug Williams had a season or two out of several (6 or 7, I think) with the Bucs and the team never improved, so they traded him. He went on to QB a Super Bowl team while the Bucs still sucked for the next 10 years. Flutie's another example of a guy that's posted pedestrian numbers with his current team and then had great years with the same team before he was traded. There are plenty more examples.

Porky
01-12-2006, 02:42 PM
If you could trade Carr right now for any QB in the league OUTSIDE OF THE TOP TEN, who would you rather have? I just don't have that much of a problem paying him the 9th or 10th highest salary because I think the potential is still there. Exclude these top ten QB's then tell me who you would rather have:

1. Peyton Manning
2. Carson Palmer
3. Donovan McNabb
4. Tom Brady
5. Ben Rothlesberger
6. Michael Vick
7. Eli Manning
8. Daunte Culpepper
9. Jake Plummer
10. Byron Leftwich

who wants Kyle Boller? anyone for Rex Grossman? how about a slow footed Drew Bledsoe behind our line?

I just think Carr has the ability to do more once more weapons arrive (Bush) and maybe our defense can improve so they don't have to score 30 pts to win every week.


Ok, I will take the bait. Yes, I would take Grossman. I will add Jake Delhomme, Matt Hasselbeck, Marc Bulger, Drew Brees, Chad Pennington, and Jake Plummer. A couple of others I might think about, such as Mark Brunell, but age is a concern.

MorKnolle
01-12-2006, 02:47 PM
If you could trade Carr right now for any QB in the league OUTSIDE OF THE TOP TEN, who would you rather have? I just don't have that much of a problem paying him the 9th or 10th highest salary because I think the potential is still there. Exclude these top ten QB's then tell me who you would rather have:

1. Peyton Manning
2. Carson Palmer
3. Donovan McNabb
4. Tom Brady
5. Ben Rothlesberger
6. Michael Vick
7. Eli Manning
8. Daunte Culpepper
9. Jake Plummer
10. Byron Leftwich

who wants Kyle Boller? anyone for Rex Grossman? how about a slow footed Drew Bledsoe behind our line?

I just think Carr has the ability to do more once more weapons arrive (Bush) and maybe our defense can improve so they don't have to score 30 pts to win every week.

I would even rather have Carr than a couple guys on this list, I'd rather have Carr than Leftwich, Culpepper (he seems pretty useless without having the best WR in the league to throw balls at and is turnover prone), probably rather have Carr than Michael Vick, and for now I'd rather have him than Eli, maybe that will change in a couple years as Eli develops, assuming David doesn't develop as well under Kubiak. Hasselbeck and Brees could be added to this list and give Carr a run in my books.

GoBlue
01-12-2006, 02:49 PM
You can't have Plummer, he's in the top ten. Interesting though, when you think how similar his style is to Carr's and whether a coaching change like Jake had could turn the guy's career around. Delhomme or Hasselbeck maybe but don't you think Carr would be good with Holmgren as a coach and Alexander in the backfield? You lost me with the shoulder twins Drew and Chad- their careers may be over. Brunell or even Drew Bledsoe would be quite temporary for me due to their age

thunderkyss
01-12-2006, 02:53 PM
Actually, it's evidence that once the team improves, you'll see better numbers from Carr. McNair's numbers were not good for his first four years and the team didn't trade him, because they recognized that the team sucked. Doug Williams had a season or two out of several (6 or 7, I think) with the Bucs and the team never improved, so they traded him. He went on to QB a Super Bowl team while the Bucs still sucked for the next 10 years. Flutie's another example of a guy that's posted pedestrian numbers with his current team and then had great years with the same team before he was traded. There are plenty more examples.


No, even the examples you are showing me shows me that you have to trade the player before he gets better. It is my Theory, that it is the kick in the pants, of being of traded, the idea of knowing that you can do wrong, that makes you play better.

Number wise, McNair may not have been that good. But if you watched the Games, you knew why he was still there. He made the highlight reels, because when Tenessee won, they won because of that one man....

HoustonFrog
01-12-2006, 02:55 PM
Ok, I will take the bait. Yes, I would take Grossman. I will add Jake Delhomme, Matt Hasselbeck, Marc Bulger, Drew Brees, Chad Pennington, and Jake Plummer. A couple of others I might think about, such as Mark Brunell, but age is a concern.

Pretty much all of them.

Dennis007
01-12-2006, 03:03 PM
I think Mc Nair should be smart, get greedy, and do the best thing for the Texans.

Draft Reggie and Vince and TRADE CARR.

GoBlue
01-12-2006, 03:09 PM
Trade Carr for what? He is way undervalued right now.

Dennis007
01-12-2006, 03:13 PM
Trade Carr for what? He is way undervalued right now.

Undervalued? :um:

You're watching at the wrong Blue team, we're not playing against Pittsburgh this weekend- Peyton is not our QB..

We are the team 2-14 this season and GRAND of 18-46!

TheOgre
01-12-2006, 03:16 PM
:homer: Hmmm. Lets trade Carr for a conditional case of beer that turns into a year's supply of Duff if he starts at least 5 games in 2006.

Kaiser Toro
01-12-2006, 03:18 PM
:homer: Hmmm. Lets trade Carr for a conditional case of beer that turns into a year's supply of Duff if he starts at least 5 games in 2006.

As long as Duff Man and the Duff Girls make an appearance you got a deal. :)

SportsJunkie
01-12-2006, 03:27 PM
All I know is that if we are down in the 4th qtr, we were many times this season by only a few points, and Vince Young runs on the field for the Texans I will get goosebumps waiting to see what HE does.

I already have seen how many 4th qtr comebacks David Carr has led in four years, maybe one, the Jacksonville game at home.

David Carr doesn't carry the leadership or intangibles than Vince has. Who you think a defense would rather face. David Carr all day long. Vince will scare the crap out of them.

HJam72
01-12-2006, 03:27 PM
No, even the examples you are showing me shows me that you have to trade the player before he gets better. It is my Theory, that it is the kick in the pants, of being of traded, the idea of knowing that you can do wrong, that makes you play better.

Number wise, McNair may not have been that good. But if you watched the Games, you knew why he was still there. He made the highlight reels, because when Tenessee won, they won because of that one man....

So, we have to wait until either Carr or Young have played for another team and then bring them (back) here. :)

rittenhouserobz
01-12-2006, 03:28 PM
why are some people so blinded by david carr, I personally have not seen anything out of him in the 4 years hes been here to make me think he is the best thing for this franchise. whether the front office wants to admit it or not this franchise is now starting over and in a rebuilding mode, but how can we/they even claim it as a rebuilding mode when nothing was ever really built. And i am tired of hearing the same old stuff about how he has never had an oline because although that might have something to do with, there is much more to it than just the oline. i firmly believe along with many others that if VY recieves appropriate coaching and given time that he will be a better nfl qb than david and would be a great addition for this team and city.


Why are you blinded by VY? I have a pretty good idea what Carr can do when the coach is calling most of the plays. I don't have any idea what Carr can do when he is unleashed and given a little bit of room to operate.

Dennis007
01-12-2006, 03:33 PM
Why are you blinded by VY? I have a pretty good idea what Carr can do when the coach is calling most of the plays. I don't have any idea what Carr can do when he is unleashed and given a little bit of room to operate.

Huh, what games were you watching? Many coaches call plays in the league, big freakin deal. If you have talent it will show no matter who calls the plays. The best players are the ones who know what to do when they don't have all the lines, time, coaches, they NEED. The talent will still come through regarless, if you have it.

:respect:

thunderkyss
01-12-2006, 03:41 PM
So, we have to wait until either Carr or Young have played for another team and then bring them (back) here. :)


If Vince is still playing at Carr's level after 4 years, yes, it's time to move on.

eriadoc
01-12-2006, 03:49 PM
Number wise, McNair may not have been that good. But if you watched the Games, you knew why he was still there. He made the highlight reels, because when Tenessee won, they won because of that one man....

Not for the first four or five years of his career. It wasn't until they fixed that team that McNair was able to "win games on his own".

If Vince is still playing at Carr's level after 4 years, yes, it's time to move on.

If this team is still playing at the level they've played at with Carr, then he will be - as will any other QB.

People still don't get it - it's not about the QB, whoever it is.

SESupergenius
01-12-2006, 05:08 PM
You're comparing Youngs play in college to Carr's NFL expansion team that was lead by Casserly's bumbling and Capers blinders? Nice. There goes that credibility out the window. Have any one of you ever noticed that this is a team game and that the 2-11 season isn't all of Carr's fault? Am I missing something here? What more proof do you need that Carr can be a good QB for the Texans when he score the most points in a half when he was given the reigns, answered critics on his so-called "locking on" when he put a deep pass right into Bradfords hands when AJ was covered and remained upbeat despite putting our offensive line in dryer cycle.

All I hear is Young this, Bush that. Our defensive woes were worse than our offensive ones and yet nobody wants to address that. And once again if we our offensive line is let off the hook.....4 years straight.

thunderkyss
01-12-2006, 05:46 PM
What more proof do you need that Carr can be a good QB for the Texans when he score the most points in a half when he was given the reigns, answered critics on his so-called "locking on" when he put a deep pass right into Bradfords hands when AJ was covered and remained upbeat despite putting our offensive line in dryer cycle.

All I hear is Young this, Bush that. Our defensive woes were worse than our offensive ones and yet nobody wants to address that. And once again if we our offensive line is let off the hook.....4 years straight.

I've said to draft Vince, and spend the rest of the draft on Defense. IF what everyone says is true, that new coaching means a lot, that our offense will be better than last year, then we'll do well. Especially if you add some experience on the Offensive line through free agency.

Vince Young is all that, he's going to be entertaining to watch, and we will win more games.

CaptainPatriot
01-12-2006, 07:26 PM
why are some people so blinded by david carr, I personally have not seen anything out of him in the 4 years hes been here to make me think he is the best thing for this franchise. whether the front office wants to admit it or not this franchise is now starting over and in a rebuilding mode, but how can we/they even claim it as a rebuilding mode when nothing was ever really built. And i am tired of hearing the same old stuff about how he has never had an oline because although that might have something to do with, there is much more to it than just the oline. i firmly believe along with many others that if VY recieves appropriate coaching and given time that he will be a better nfl qb than david and would be a great addition for this team and city.


preaching to the choir :yahoo:

texan279
01-12-2006, 07:29 PM
I've said to draft Vince, and spend the rest of the draft on Defense. IF what everyone says is true, that new coaching means a lot, that our offense will be better than last year, then we'll do well. Especially if you add some experience on the Offensive line through free agency.

Vince Young is all that, he's going to be entertaining to watch, and we will win more games.

Vince Young alone will not win us more games...Drafting Young will probably get us another top 5 pick in the next draft.

HJam72
01-12-2006, 07:36 PM
It's very simple. You like VY because he's from UT and we like DC because he has sexy hair. :wacko:

big homey
01-12-2006, 07:47 PM
What short memories we have.

Remember that year so long ago, when David threw for over 3500 yards and 16 TD's? When he led the team to a 7-9 record and playoff hopes the next year?

I think that was the, umm...oh yeah, the 04 season.

It was no coincidence that his least sacked full season resulted in his best performance. Now, amongst a 2-14, 68 sack season with a garbage offensive coordinator and the messiah from UT, "fans" want to abandon a guy who probably hasn't touched his potential with a flagpole.

Even in the Texans' best season, the O-line was weak. As much as we want that flashy guy, as much as we want to say he'll take pressure off the rush single-handedly, we have to bite down and make the ugly picks. VY's O-line was EXCELLENT, yet no one gives them credit.

We could make so much more impact by sealing up these holes than sentencing another talented player to doom behind this line. Obey the sig.

tsip
01-12-2006, 10:16 PM
What short memories we have.

Remember that year so long ago, when David threw for over 3500 yards and 16 TD's? When he led the team to a 7-9 record and playoff hopes the next year?

I think that was the, umm...oh yeah, the 04 season.

It was no coincidence that his least sacked full season resulted in his best performance. Now, amongst a 2-14, 68 sack season with a garbage offensive coordinator and the messiah from UT, "fans" want to abandon a guy who probably hasn't touched his potential with a flagpole.

Even in the Texans' best season, the O-line was weak. As much as we want that flashy guy, as much as we want to say he'll take pressure off the rush single-handedly, we have to bite down and make the ugly picks. VY's O-line was EXCELLENT, yet no one gives them credit.

We could make so much more impact by sealing up these holes than sentencing another talented player to doom behind this line. Obey the sig.

Oh, yeah-the 04 season where we lost 6 of our last 9 games and Carr had more interceptions than TDs-- and 4 of our 7 wins were against the Jags and Titans and we loss all games to playoff teams--and, best of all, the last game against the Browns where Carr could not run out of bounds fast enough which is why the Browns had so many sacks-but,hey, the first 7 games wern't
bad at all, except all the homers thought we'd start off 2-0...short memory?

HoustonFrog
01-12-2006, 10:23 PM
Vince Young alone will not win us more games...Drafting Young will probably get us another top 5 pick in the next draft.

Where I don't see a big jump, I think you are wrong here. Again, I have stated my case for Bush so I'm not jumping all over VY and I didn't go to UT but I think a guy like him could have added a dimension that would have won 2 or 3 of those games that were blown this year. Some guys refuse to lose and some expect it. I think Bush has skills to win games like that too.

thunderkyss
01-13-2006, 09:07 AM
Where I don't see a big jump, I think you are wrong here. Again, I have stated my case for Bush so I'm not jumping all over VY and I didn't go to UT but I think a guy like him could have added a dimension that would have won 2 or 3 of those games that were blown this year. Some guys refuse to lose and some expect it. I think Bush has skills to win games like that too.


Except when it's fourth and 2, you make this First down, and we win the game, and Reggie may be on the field, and reggie may not be on the field. You'll have Vince every play, every down, he'll have the ability to "decide" to win the game on every play, every down.