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View Full Version : Vince Young: Relevant Comparisons


Dr. Toro
01-10-2006, 05:24 PM
There seem to be a number of controversies about Vince Young's skills, his arm strength (Mort report said marginal), speed (not fast enough or slower than Vick), passing ability, etc. Let's take a look at his closest peers, and how they performed in college to get an idea at what Young can do physically.

Matt Jones: 4.37 time in the 40. Mediocre college passer with questionable motivation. Similar (around 7.5) ypc average to Young, with significantly less carries. Same size as Young. Still a burner in the big leagues.

Mike Vick: 4.36 time in the 40. Mediocre college passer with tremendous arm strength. Lower (around 5.5) ypc average than Young, with a similar amount of carries. Much smaller, has been injured a lot. Still a burner, makes plays with fantastic quickness/acceleration/change of speed.

Vince Young: Speed- No idea what the 40 time is, Rivals.com lists it as 4.4 when he was a HS senior. Don't know how accurate that time is, but he's likely to have gotten faster in college. He runs past DBs is all I can see. Numerous opponents have said the long stride makes him very deceptive. I wouldn't be surprised to see him clock a similar time to Jones/Vick.

Passing- Threw the deep ball best this year, led country in passing efficiency, showed ability to throw sharp short-mid range passes. Obviously, what we haven't seen out of Vince Young is the ability to throw Brett Favre/David Carr 30-35 yard rockets. Put up nice stats with an unheralded WR corps, excellent TE who he found regularly.

Size-Height is a tremendous asset, sees the field extremely well, despite motion, don't recall many passes being batted. His weight/elusiveness makes him very durable. The only big hit I've seen him take was from AJ Hawk, and Young dealt a little blow too. Tough take down.

When I see Vince Young, I see Jones size/speed, quickness similar to Vick, and a more refined passing ability than Vick, with less raw arm strength and a funky delivery. What do yall think about his game? I'm hoping we can get an honest assessment of his physical skills here, which vary in media and scouting accounts quite a bit.

tulexan
01-10-2006, 05:30 PM
He did not lead the country in passing efficiency. He may have at one point in the season, but Rudy Carpenter and Brian Brohm were both more efficient to him.

Dr. Toro
01-10-2006, 05:38 PM
He did not lead the country in passing efficiency. He may have at one point in the season, but Rudy Carpenter and Brian Brohm were both more efficient to him.

Carpenter passed him after the Insight Bowl, why split hairs?

tulexan
01-10-2006, 05:43 PM
Brian Brohm was still above him

Dr. Toro
01-10-2006, 05:47 PM
Brohm also passed him in the bowl season. Young led after the regular season. Bottom line he was an exceedingly effective passer.

tulexan
01-10-2006, 05:48 PM
Brian Brohm didn't play in the bowl game

Dr. Toro
01-10-2006, 05:52 PM
Young's passing efficiency came down after the Rose Bowl from 168 to 163. He went 30-40, 267 with no touches or INTs.

Texans_Chick
01-10-2006, 06:10 PM
I am not sure that there are relevant comparisons to VY.

Or Reggie Bush for that matter.

I have a hard time figuring out who to compare them to in both college and NFL football. By body type, style of play, confidence and skills.

Everytime I try to come up with a comparison, they are not quite right. Vick/Jones aren't quite right.

JMO.

tulexan
01-10-2006, 06:23 PM
I would say that he is like a McNabb without the arm strength or passing abilities.

Huge
01-10-2006, 06:35 PM
I've heard many compare him to Randall Cunningham and I think that's about as fair as it gets. Only Randall never had the intangibles like Vince does.

Young's passing efficiency came down after the Rose Bowl from 168 to 163. He went 30-40, 267 with no touches or INTs.
The college efficiency rating is based largely on YPA as well as TDs per attempt. Because Vince added 40 attempts w/o any TDs, his rating came down. On the NFL QB rating it probably would've gone up as his completion percentage rose.

Anti-Young's like to point this out because it doesn't put Vince in such a fair light as being #1 in passing efficiency. He 'only' finished 3rd.

Texans_Chick
01-10-2006, 06:44 PM
I would say that he is like a McNabb without the arm strength or passing abilities.

Stats please?

Dr. Toro
01-10-2006, 06:54 PM
I think the Cunningham comparison is the closest, Pete Carroll said something like that prior to the matchup. Young is already 20-30 pounds heavier than Randall, and I don't know how they compare speed wise. Cunningham was fast, not quite as slick as Young.

tulexan
01-10-2006, 06:55 PM
I don't need stats. I have seen both play. McNabb is a very accurate deep ball thrower. Vince Young is not.

Huge
01-10-2006, 07:03 PM
Yeah, Vince simply throws jump balls (Isn't that what you called it, tulexan?) for his WRs.

49-0 and 63-18 must've stung pretty deep.

tulexan
01-10-2006, 07:10 PM
are you talking about when Tulane played Texas?

JDizzle
01-10-2006, 07:35 PM
For anyone that wants to know ...

The NFL and NCAA use the exact same stats to compute QB rating, the only differences are in the additional calculations made on the 4 base stats.

NFL

a = (Comp. % - 30) * .05
b = (TD's/Att) * .2
c = 2.375 - ((INT's/Att) * .25)
d = (YDS/Att - 3) * .25

-If a or d is greater than 2.375, then use 2.375, if either one is less than 0, use 0.
-If b is greater than 2.375, then use 2.375 for b.
-If c is less than 0, use 0 for c.

Rating = ((a+b+c+d)/6) * 100

NCAA

a = Completion percentage
b = Percentage of Touchdowns (per attempt)
c = Percentage of Interceptions (per attempt)
d = Yards Per attempt

Rating = a+(3.3*b)-(2*c)+(8.4*d)

Texans_Chick
01-10-2006, 09:16 PM
I don't need stats. I have seen both play. McNabb is a very accurate deep ball thrower. Vince Young is not.

A McNabb comparison wouldn't be a bad one. Ricky v. Donovan, Donovan picked, an unhappy choice, Philly boos. Donovan dint win no Heisman

McNabb ends up being a 4 time Probowler and goes to a Superbowl.

If you compare their last season college stats, you can tell why VY is a legit choice in that spot, and why the McNabb comparison is not quite right (a little shorter too).

Vince Young:

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Donovan McNabb:

2326 passing yards
60.85 completion percentage
281 attempts for 171 completions, 8.3 av yards per attempt
23 passing TDs with 6 INTs
155 rushes for 510 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 8 rushing TDs

I know stats aren't the whole story with a player, but I like knowing them, and the stuff that VY shows beyond the amazing stats too.

You take just about any "relevant comparison" guy, and there is always something that makes the comparison not quite right.

I just know that statistically, VY ranks with the best college QBs of all time already, and I think he still has an upside from that, so certainly picking him as a #1 is not a reach.

All my eyes say is that I have never seen anybody like him and don't know who to compare him to.

Texans_Chick
01-11-2006, 09:19 AM
Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ????

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs


Daunte Culpepper (last college season) Drafted 11th:

3690 passing yards
73.63 completion percentage
402 attempts for 296 completions, 9.2 av yards per attempt
28 passing TDs with 7 INTs
141 rushes for 463 yards, 3.3 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Against the following opponents:

at Louisiana Tech
Eastern Illinois
at Purdue
at Bowling Green
at Toledo
Northern Illinois
at SW Louisiana
Youngstown St.
at Auburn
Ball St.
New Mexico

There were a lot of questions about his development because of his competition:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/1999/nfldraft/news/1999/04/12/culpepper/

Mike Vick (last college season), Drafted 1st

1439 passing yards
54.19 completion percentage
179 attempts for 97 completions, 8.0 av yards per attempt
9 passing TDs with 7 INTs
113 rushes for 636 yards, 5.6 av yards per attempt, 9 rushing TDs


And Vince's stats would have been even more stacked had his team not scored so quickly in games and he had to be taken out in the 3rd quarter.

I don't really see any relevant comparison quarterbacks.

Vinny
01-11-2006, 09:32 AM
Warren at HPF calculated Youngs passer rating using the NFL method and he ended up as one of the top rated passers in either rating system. Young is tough to compare to everyone...there really hasn't been anyone like him in the NFL. Not Vince. I heard that, too, and it might have been true before the bowls but not after. According to the NCAA (http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp?div=4&rpt=IA_playerpasseff&site=org), he finished the season third in Division I-A using the NCAA passing efficiency formula.

If the passer rating calculator I used is correct, Young finished with a damn impressive 109.2 NFL passer rating. That put him in sixth place in Division I-A, behind Rudy Carpenter of Arizona St. (who had a ridiculous 121.8), Drew Olson of UCLA, Brian Brohm of Louisville, Troy Smith of Ohio St., and Brady Quinn of Notre Dame. FYI, Leinart finished with an NFL rating of 107.6. http://www.houstonprofootball.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=61679#post61679

Glacier
01-11-2006, 09:39 AM
Warren at HPF calculated Youngs passer rating using the NFL method and he ended up as one of the top rated passers in either rating system. Young is tough to compare to everyone...there really hasn't been anyone like him in the NFL. http://www.houstonprofootball.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=61679#post61679


This is an interesting thing said here. "There really hasn't been anyone like him in the NFL"


I saw something interesting that some random sports writer thought up....

He said, "Vince Young is the future of the Quarterback Position in the NFL. Built like a Tight End, runs like a half back, throws like a Quarterback. In 2025, all NFL Quarterbacks will be like Vince Young."


That made a lot of sense to me. Sure he has some flaws that people are going to pick at. I hope he falls to #18! ;) I'm a Cowboy's fan, remember?

Dr. Toro
01-11-2006, 09:40 AM
Agreed. I don't think there's anybody that quite matches up to the complete package of Vince. He's Culpepper's size, minus the cheeseburgers, with Vick's athleticism. There's been a lot of questions about Young's speed, but his long stride makes him look slower than he is. Who would have thought Jones could run a 4.37? The fact that he rushed better than Vick against better competition (Big 12 vs. Big East) is very impressive.

Youngstown Colt
01-11-2006, 09:52 AM
Agreed. I don't think there's anybody that quite matches up to the complete package of Vince. He's Culpepper's size, minus the cheeseburgers, with Vick's athleticism. There's been a lot of questions about Young's speed, but his long stride makes him look slower than he is. Who would have thought Jones could run a 4.37? The fact that he rushed better than Vick against better competition (Big 12 vs. Big East) is very impressive.THIS big 12 compared to THAT big east isn't even a comparison.

MorKnolle
01-11-2006, 10:30 AM
This is an interesting thing said here. "There really hasn't been anyone like him in the NFL"


I saw something interesting that some random sports writer thought up....

He said, "Vince Young is the future of the Quarterback Position in the NFL. Built like a Tight End, runs like a half back, throws like a Quarterback. In 2025, all NFL Quarterbacks will be like Vince Young."


That made a lot of sense to me. Sure he has some flaws that people are going to pick at. I hope he falls to #18! ;) I'm a Cowboy's fan, remember?

Vince is built like a TE? What NFL TEs are 6-5, 225 lbs? Culpepper is built like a big TE, but Vince is not. He runs like a pretty good RB, with the exception that he won't run over or bounce off people in the NFL, and he throws like an average QB.

Vinny
01-11-2006, 10:33 AM
Vince is built like a TE? What NFL TEs are 6-5, 225 lbs? Culpepper is built like a big TE, but Vince is not. He runs like a pretty good RB, with the exception that he won't run over or bounce off people in the NFL, and he throws like an average QB.Vince Young is closer to 240 than 220. He is listed at 233

Kaiser Toro
01-11-2006, 10:35 AM
I think the Cunningham comparison is the closest, Pete Carroll said something like that prior to the matchup. Young is already 20-30 pounds heavier than Randall, and I don't know how they compare speed wise. Cunningham was fast, not quite as slick as Young.

Randall was head and shoulders more valuable as an all around football player due to his punting skills. :fishing:

tulexan
01-11-2006, 10:38 AM
Vince Young is closer to 240 than 220. He is listed at 233


Height and weights generally are inflated. He is probably closer to 220.

Dr. Toro
01-11-2006, 10:39 AM
Well, I'm sure Vince will be looking into taking some drop-kick lessons from Flutie. Perhaps he'll even master the art of the jump pass.

Vinny
01-11-2006, 10:42 AM
Pastorini used to Punt here with the Oilers. He was a heck of an athlete

Kaiser Toro
01-11-2006, 10:43 AM
Well, I'm sure Vince will be looking into taking some drop-kick lessons from Flutie. Perhaps he'll even master the art of the jump pass.

Nice. I forgot to mention his tennis skills as well. Randall used to live in the same apartment complex as I in Las Vegas when he was a Rebel.

JDizzle
01-11-2006, 11:29 AM
Warren at HPF calculated Youngs passer rating using the NFL method and he ended up as one of the top rated passers in either rating system. Young is tough to compare to everyone...there really hasn't been anyone like him in the NFL. http://www.houstonprofootball.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=61679#post61679

Here's a web-based Rating calculator if anyone doesn't like doing the full calculations ....

NFL Rating Calculator (http://www.footballguys.com/qbrating.htm)

I also have a little .exe file I made up earlier that will calculate NCAA and NFL passer ratings if anyone wants it. Just PM me your email.

Toro
01-22-2006, 02:28 AM
I'm really not buying the Vick comparisons. People tend to forget, even at Virginia Tech, Vick would only throw the football when forced to. He was always more of a HB stuck in the QB position.

On the flipside, I honestly think Young has a gunslinger's mentality and would prefer to pass, but runs when he finds his options limited.

The Cunningham comparisons are valid. I always felt, if given the choice Cunningham would have rather thrown for 3,000 yards than 1,500 and a thousand on the ground. The biggest difference between the two is Randall didn't have half the leadership skills VY does, and Vince isn't the primadonna that Randall was.

Texan in Japan
01-22-2006, 02:49 AM
Everyone loves to compare players, especially prior to the draft. It gives fans a since of what the "experts" expect from a particular player. They're cool for us to visualize (for a second) our expectations for what the player could become, but they're really worthless.

I haven't seen anyone that remotely compares to Vince Young. I could be wrong, but I think if he finds the right team/coach/system, he could revolutionize pro-QBing; IMHO.

threetoedpete
01-22-2006, 02:58 AM
Stats please?

Look it's one thing to run out of the spread, gain a few seconds with scrabling ablity and then "fling" the ball down feild to a wide open tight end or back who's shaken loose from a college zone. It's going to be quite another thing to stand under center take a five step drop and hit a second or third read on time and on target.. Vince Young is a rare tallent. But there is going to be a learnin curve. Anyone who writes otherwise is just bedazzeled. He could catch Marino. He has the foundation. He could also end up being the next Ryan Leaf. There is the possiblity that he dosen't make the transition. You can't run the spread in the NFL. Over time,you'll get the guy killed. Vick is proving that out in Atlanta. Moon proved it here. I don't care how fast the guy is you don't put a fifty million dollar prospect in the spread. I have no problem with him as the pick. He has enough ablity to make the transition. But if they pick him, means we're rebuilding. And it won't be quick.

Haams
01-22-2006, 02:52 PM
I'm bedazzled. Sure, there will be a learning curve with Vince - but I'm convinced at the end of that curve you've got the best player in the NFL. Even say he had to start immediatelly - Houston would have the best running QB in the league / We would stop losing so many yards due to sacks / And I think he has the talent to throw for the amount of yards Carr did this season, with a few more INT's.

Bottom line is we need Vince. You cannot pass on a player with this much potential. He can help us now, and he can be untouchable in the future. If you want a comparison I would put him as a cross between The Flash, Batman, and The Jolly Green Giant.

Napa Auto Parts
01-22-2006, 05:17 PM
i think the only comparison for V.Y is something like randall C. only a million times better and faster and with a better arm.