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View Full Version : If we were to "rebuild" with Vince why does the cap hit matter for trading Carr?


1-3
01-10-2006, 03:52 AM
Here's a point I don't think I'm following all the way in this debate. If we were to move in the direction of signing Carr and trading him, is my understanding correct that we would just take a big 6-7 million dollar cap hit next season (depending if we do the 2 or 3 year extension). Here's the thing. I think even the most die hard Vince backers realize we aren't competing for a playoff spot with him QB'ng in the first two years at least, so why exactly would it be such a big deal to take a cap hit on Carr's contract if we can trade him for a pick or another player? Would it just mean we wouldn't be able to go out and make as big of free agent signings? Or maybe have to cut some higher paid veteran players? Personally I don't see why either one of these should raise too much concern if we are admittedly rebuilding in a way that we think can help the team make the playoffs possibly 3 or 4 years from now. I'm just not up on the salary cap that much and any input would be great. Would trading Carr somehow hamper us capwise further down the road than say 2 years? Or would it make it so bad on us in the near term that we would have to let go of some young core talent that we wouldn't otherwise have to. Those are really my only concerns if we were to move in that direction. Thanks for any responses.

Corrosion
01-10-2006, 05:32 AM
The cap hit (I believe) is a one time deal etween 5 and 8 mill .... depending on the length of the extenxion (2or 3 years) .... If they give Carr the extension and keep him they pay him 5-8 mil vs the cap split over the duration of the contract . If they give him the extension and trade him that take the full bonus as a direct hit on the cap .... I really dont see this as a roadblock in trading Carr (If that were the case) ...

This team can not fool itself or its fans into thinking they are contenders after the season they just gave us . It IS rebuilding. They have so many holes it will take at least 2-3 years to fill them , FA's dont want to come to a 2-14 team ....

Taking Bush #1 may make this team slightly better Immediately . Taking Young will make it better in the long haul . The only question's here are .... how long is management willing to wait for the dividends to show .... and are they willing to gamble on a QB #1 again (who wouldnt play for at least a season) with this cracker jack O-line.

Simply put the cap hit is a formality ... an Excuse .:cool:

Texans Horror
01-10-2006, 08:30 AM
O-lines, cracker jack or otherwise, take at least a good year or two to develop. If the Texans draft Young and a lineman or two, it could be that the Texans are looking to hit their stride about three years down the road when we will have a much more talented group on both sides of the ball.

However, we are taking a step back (experience-wise) to gamble on three years into the future. That's a lot of risk to not much investment. Taking Bush and picking up three others puts more stake into next year, as RBs can be productive in their first year (Caddilac and Brown, for example).

thunderkyss
01-10-2006, 09:34 AM
I still don't see it as a step backwards. We'll still have Carr. Vince will sit. The pick won't help us next year, but I honestly don't think picking Bush will either. The Best thing to do for this team, is to trade down, get some players, and a first round pick this year and next, or two a first and two seconds, or something. Fix the O-Line, and our Defense.

But I can't pass on Young....... I think he's that good. I'd have passed on Vick, and McNabb, but not on Young.

The Smart move is to trade down. But if we're going to use the pick, and we're not going to address needs, take Young. Especially if we get Kubiak.... plug in RB here...

cap1
01-10-2006, 09:45 AM
Sign and then Trade David Carr will be a huge cap hit, but also this years cap is going up around 90 million because of the new NFL TV Contract. It might be more, but I am not saying we should trade David Carr. I think we can still use him and make him a very good QB. :twocents:

Big B Texan Fan
01-10-2006, 10:01 AM
Here's couple of theams that made the playoffs without big contibutions from their round 1 pick in the last draft-
Bears - Ced Benson
Giants - didn't have one
Broncos - didn't have one
Redskins - I don't think their 1st rd CB was not a starter but even if so he got hurt. Their other 1st rd'r didn't even get a start
Colts - Marlin Jackson, not a starter

There's more out ther but you get my drift. We don't have to have an immediate impact from our 1st pick.

I know, Cadillac Williams practically put the Bucs in the playoffs.

1-3
01-10-2006, 12:48 PM
Thanks guys, that's what I thought the situation was. It sounds like with the cap raising anyways the cap hit from a Carr trade would simply mean we wouldn't add a veteran free agent THIS coming season possibly. WHO CARES if we aren't making our push this coming season? A year from now we will have that cap room back and can then use it to build a serious contender. It looks like a non issue to me if we are going with Vince.

tulexan
01-10-2006, 12:58 PM
Coaching alone makes a big difference. We may seem to be a pathetic team, but you don't know how good we actually are. We lost 4 or 5 games on the last play of the game. We finished at 2-14, but we could have easily been 6-10 or 7-9. I know a lot of you are saying that we can't be much better next year, but the Dolphins went from 4-12 last year to 9-7 this year. I believe the Chargers went from 4-12 two years ago to 12-4 last year. If we let Carr go and draft Vince, we aren't going to be a much better team because rookies rarely are successful from the very beginning. Especially a raw talent like Vince Young.

Wordem
01-10-2006, 01:01 PM
The Texans aren't making the playoffs next year no matter who takes the snaps.

eriadoc
01-10-2006, 01:06 PM
I really doubt any businessman would want to throw away 5-8 million dollars for any reason. The only reason you'd resign Carr and take that cap hit is to play him. If you trade him, you might get a 3rd round pick for him. So, at that point, you're basically paying 5-8 mill (whatever the figure is) for a 3rd round pick - plus whatever the player costs you. That is so totally not worth it. Throughout the latter part of the season and so far during this offseason, McNair has been talking to football experts about David Carr, in order to make an informed decision. I applaud him for that. I realize many of us on this board want Vince Young or Reggie Bush, but we're not in that group of "experts" (and thank God!). If the Texans keep Carr, it will be because they intend to play him and they've received plenty of expert evaluation saying to do so. While I am obviously not in the circle of experts either, I'd be willing to place a bet that most of the experts are saying that no QB would have done anymore than Carr given the same set of circumstances to this point.

Just a guess, though.

thunderkyss
01-10-2006, 01:07 PM
Coaching alone makes a big difference. We may seem to be a pathetic team, but you don't know how good we actually are. We lost 4 or 5 games on the last play of the game. We finished at 2-14, but we could have easily been 6-10 or 7-9. I know a lot of you are saying that we can't be much better next year, but the Dolphins went from 4-12 last year to 9-7 this year. I believe the Chargers went from 4-12 two years ago to 12-4 last year. If we let Carr go and draft Vince, we aren't going to be a much better team because rookies rarely are successful from the very beginning. Especially a raw talent like Vince Young.


But we're not talking about letting Carr go....... at least I'm not. Let's put Carr in with a New Coach, a new system. See how he does. IF we are below 500 at midseason, Vince get's the start.

Jack Bauer
01-10-2006, 01:10 PM
Coaching alone makes a big difference. We may seem to be a pathetic team, but you don't know how good we actually are. We lost 4 or 5 games on the last play of the game. We finished at 2-14, but we could have easily been 6-10 or 7-9. I know a lot of you are saying that we can't be much better next year, but the Dolphins went from 4-12 last year to 9-7 this year. I believe the Chargers went from 4-12 two years ago to 12-4 last year. If we let Carr go and draft Vince, we aren't going to be a much better team because rookies rarely are successful from the very beginning. Especially a raw talent like Vince Young.

Kudos to you! You have echoed my thoughts exactly. We were 7-9 two years ago. We were expected to compete for the playoffs this year. With the right coach (Kubiak), we can easily be 7-9 to 9-7 next year. We could have easily been 7-9 this year, if we didn't play NOT to lose.

tulexan
01-10-2006, 01:17 PM
But we're not talking about letting Carr go....... at least I'm not. Let's put Carr in with a New Coach, a new system. See how he does. IF we are below 500 at midseason, Vince get's the start.

They aren't going to have Carr and Young on the team at the same time. That is way too much money tied into one position, especially when one of them won't be playing.

There are two options:

Keep Carr and draft Bush or trade down

Get rid of Carr and draft Young.


We aren't going to extend Carr and then trade him because we will have to take a $5-8 million cap hit. We also aren't going to extend Carr and have Vince sit behind him until Carr's contract is over.

1-3
01-10-2006, 01:17 PM
I really doubt any businessman would want to throw away 5-8 million dollars for any reason. The only reason you'd resign Carr and take that cap hit is to play him.

That's really the jest of it as far as I can see. I know yall hate this point but it applies here.. 1-You will easily make that 5 million (2 year deal) up in Vince jerseys, concessions etc.. Fire away, but that point is almost certainly correct. 2-If you are making the trade to improve the team you have to view the cap hit as a means to that end. Just the same as if we were to sign a 5 million dollar linebacker next year with Carr still at QB. Your still shelling out the same money for the team, you goal is just further down the road.

Now the happy medium seems to be keep Carr one year and try to build him up for more trade value and ?less of cap hit? after one season I'd guess.

tulexan
01-10-2006, 01:20 PM
That's really the jest of it as far as I can see. I know yall hate this point but it applies here.. 1-You will easily make that 5 million (2 year deal) up in Vince jerseys, concessions etc.. Fire away, but that point is almost certainly correct. 2-If you are making the trade to improve the team you have to view the cap hit as a means to that end. Just the same as if we were to sign a 5 million dollar linebacker next year with Carr still at QB. Your still shelling out the same money for the team, you goal is just further down the road.

Now the happy medium seems to be keep Carr one year and try to build him up for more trade value and ?less of cap hit? after one season I'd guess.


It's not just losing $5-8 million dollars. That is $5-8 million on the salary cap which means you have less money to spend on players.

The NFL is not like the NBA or MLB. You can't go over the cap. There is no leeway. It's not that you go over and pay a luxury tax, you are not allowed to go over and if you do, you face severe penalties.

Dennis007
01-10-2006, 01:26 PM
Big Deal to sign Carr and trade him. They won't go over the cap.
Most of the payers on the roster should earn about :twocents:

So we should not have any cap issues. We'll have $$ left to blow! LOL

:coolb:

Bobo
01-10-2006, 01:31 PM
O-lines, cracker jack or otherwise, take at least a good year or two to develop. If the Texans draft Young and a lineman or two, it could be that the Texans are looking to hit their stride about three years down the road when we will have a much more talented group on both sides of the ball.

However, we are taking a step back (experience-wise) to gamble on three years into the future. That's a lot of risk to not much investment. Taking Bush and picking up three others puts more stake into next year, as RBs can be productive in their first year (Caddilac and Brown, for example).

We already have a productive RB. Burning a #1 overall on a RB when you already have a good one gets you nowhere except another 2-14 season.

Bobo
01-10-2006, 01:33 PM
Kudos to you! You have echoed my thoughts exactly. We were 7-9 two years ago. We were expected to compete for the playoffs this year. With the right coach (Kubiak), we can easily be 7-9 to 9-7 next year. We could have easily been 7-9 this year, if we didn't play NOT to lose.

Um, we were 7-9 with Capers. So if your goal is 7-9, why did they fire him in the first place?

Bobo
01-10-2006, 01:35 PM
There are two options:

Keep Carr and draft Bush or trade down

Get rid of Carr and draft Young.

Then there is the smart option -- keep Carr and trade the pick to get help at positions where the Texans are really hurting.

1-3
01-10-2006, 02:02 PM
It's not just losing $5-8 million dollars. That is $5-8 million on the salary cap which means you have less money to spend on players.

Read my original post. It only means we can't spend on players for NEXT season, which we will be starting with a new QB if we make a trade. That hardly matters at all really. In year 2 we will have the cap room back and can get our players then. Cap room just isn't a huge issue when you are in "mini-rebuilding mode" year 1.

MorKnolle
01-10-2006, 02:07 PM
Read my original post. It only means we can't spend on players for NEXT season, which we will be starting with a new QB if we make a trade. That hardly matters at all really. In year 2 we will have the cap room back and can get our players then. Cap room just isn't a huge issue when you are in "mini-rebuilding mode" year 1.

So we'll trade Carr, bring in a rookie QB with the same roster to take the same beating that Carr took the last four years and shell shock our rookie too? That sounds like a great plan, especially when that rookie can't accurately throw the ball more than 25 yards down field.

eriadoc
01-10-2006, 02:38 PM
I sincerely doubt the Texans would see a $5 million dollar return in Vince Young jersey sales. Even if it were close to that figure, you'd have to weigh it against their jersey revenue for Bush, or whoever they take at #1. The VY hype is just a little toos trong for reality here on this board. If McNair had the chance to save the $5 mill cap hit he'd take by trading Carr and still get, say ... $4 million in jersey revenue from Bush, well, he's a heck of a lot further down the road.

Regardless, all this talk is really moot, because McNair is going to take the advice of a group of experts he has consulted with for several weeks now regarding Carr and the team's best chance of winning. Fans are fickle and when the team is winning, no one will care that we didn't take VY, or Bush, or Superman, or whoever.

1-3
01-10-2006, 11:44 PM
If McNair had the chance to save the $5 mill cap hit he'd take by trading Carr and still get, say ... $4 million in jersey revenue from Bush, well, he's a heck of a lot further down the road.

Not if he's paying David Carr's salary which would be fairly close to the cap hit of trading him.

thunderkyss
01-10-2006, 11:49 PM
We already have a productive RB. Burning a #1 overall on a RB when you already have a good one gets you nowhere except another 2-14 season.


But we've got two, maybe three.

tulexan
01-10-2006, 11:49 PM
Not if he's paying David Carr's salary which would be fairly close to the cap hit of trading him.

But at least Carr is on the field playing for our team, and not some other team.

thunderkyss
01-10-2006, 11:52 PM
So we'll trade Carr, bring in a rookie QB with the same roster to take the same beating that Carr took the last four years and shell shock our rookie too? That sounds like a great plan, especially when that rookie can't accurately throw the ball more than 25 yards down field.

In the time it took Carr to drop back three steps, Vince would've been around the corner, on his way to a 15 yard run. No, this isn't college, but if they've got seven men in our backfield, there's only 4 guys Vince needs to juke on the outside.

edo783
01-11-2006, 12:49 AM
In the time it took Carr to drop back three steps, Vince would've been around the corner, on his way to a 15 yard run. No, this isn't college, but if they've got seven men in our backfield, there's only 4 guys Vince needs to juke on the outside.

Good grief, what drugs are you on.

bckey
01-11-2006, 02:22 AM
They aren't going to have Carr and Young on the team at the same time. That is way too much money tied into one position, especially when one of them won't be playing.

But you're willing to tie up that much money at the rb position.

Hookem Horns
01-11-2006, 03:34 AM
That sounds like a great plan, especially when that rookie can't accurately throw the ball more than 25 yards down field.

Umm, the rookie in question is Vince Young not Reggie McNeal. I believe McNeal is staying in school anyway.

Big B Texan Fan
01-11-2006, 03:42 AM
Umm, the rookie in question is Vince Young not Reggie McNeal. I believe McNeal is staying in school anyway.
McNeal is a senior. He was never red-shirted

thunderkyss
01-11-2006, 08:10 AM
The players didn't let Reggie Play in their Final game.

chuckm
01-11-2006, 09:34 AM
In the time it took Carr to drop back three steps, Vince would've been around the corner, on his way to a 15 yard run. No, this isn't college, but if they've got seven men in our backfield, there's only 4 guys Vince needs to juke on the outside.

if you're counting on Young to come into the NFL and beat teams with his legs as he did in college, then you're bound to be disappointed ... oh don't get me wrong, he'll have some awesome runs but not at the frequency he did in college .... over time Young will not run as much due to developing as a passer .... a concern I have is that he won't play for the first year or two and during this time his ability to read defenses and to be an efficient passer in the NFL will increase ... unfortunately his ability to run will decrease albeit not a lot .... NFL players ALL get paid and they're ALL talented to one degree or another ... he's an antelope now but there are lot of lions on defense ....