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View Full Version : RBs don't control games


Nighthawk
01-09-2006, 09:17 PM
Well, not so much as they might have one, and certainly not so much as QB. In addition, when RBs control a game it's usually a big, hefty, strong, tough back, not a scat guy.

I say Bush is very talented and is good for 15-20 _touches_ a game as long as he doesn't take any serious hits. In the NFL game he's going to slow down a lot and he won't be nearly as elusive--a lot of that highlight reel stuff is questional defensive play. And with the fast DBs in the NFL they'll run him down unless he's as fast as Mathis, which I don't think he is, is he?

In any case, Bush is a great pick if we had a great QB and had the luxury of adding a part-time threat to the club. As it is we do not have a great QB and we do not have the luxury of adding a part-time guy.

At first I scoffed at the people who were saying DD is a good partner for Bush, but as I reflect further, it seems like DD is an almost full-time guy with some good move, some elusiveness, some speed. And in that sense--that he will be there almost all of the time--he may be more useful over the long haul.

We certainly have more worries at QB than at RB. I don't think many would argue against that.

Bongo59
01-09-2006, 09:18 PM
RB dont control games????????????? OK you guys just jumped overboard.

Jerry
01-09-2006, 09:20 PM
I would say that Reggie Bush controlled Texas' gameplan for the Rose Bowl. They focused so much on stopping him that their defense in other areas was a bit suspect (more than usual). But don't get me wrong -- I want to keep DD as a starting back and go for something other than Bush or Young.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 09:24 PM
Marshall Faulk used to control games.

Ricky Williams controlled games before he went loco. I don't think that the Dolphins were riding the awesome performance of Jay Fiedler week in and week out.

Tiki Barber has been controlling games this year.

Larry Johnson sure did control the game against us and most other teams this year.

HeartofHouston
01-09-2006, 09:38 PM
are you FREAKING SERIOUS!?!?!?

A Good running game is the nucleus or a good football team.. WIthout a running game NO team would make the playoffs..

name one team that is in the playoffs that doesnt have a good running game??

CyberTexan
01-09-2006, 09:39 PM
I hope Shawn Alexander dont read this

Hervoyel
01-09-2006, 09:48 PM
Well, not so much as they might have one, and certainly not so much as QB. In addition, when RBs control a game it's usually a big, hefty, strong, tough back, not a scat guy.

I say Bush is very talented and is good for 15-20 _touches_ a game as long as he doesn't take any serious hits. In the NFL game he's going to slow down a lot and he won't be nearly as elusive--a lot of that highlight reel stuff is questional defensive play. And with the fast DBs in the NFL they'll run him down unless he's as fast as Mathis, which I don't think he is, is he?

In any case, Bush is a great pick if we had a great QB and had the luxury of adding a part-time threat to the club. As it is we do not have a great QB and we do not have the luxury of adding a part-time guy.

At first I scoffed at the people who were saying DD is a good partner for Bush, but as I reflect further, it seems like DD is an almost full-time guy with some good move, some elusiveness, some speed. And in that sense--that he will be there almost all of the time--he may be more useful over the long haul.

We certainly have more worries at QB than at RB. I don't think many would argue against that.


You have crossed over into comedy now. Bravo!

tulexan
01-09-2006, 09:52 PM
Isn't the goal of most teams to establish the running game and stop the run?

HeartofHouston
01-09-2006, 10:15 PM
Thats what I believe..

Nighthawk
01-10-2006, 12:44 AM
Am I mistaken or is every back mentioned (all 5 of them) a tough in the game every play guy? Which is what I said in the first place? You don't control a game with a tiny 185lb part-time player like Bush. Period. Call it comedy if you like. Bush sure controlled (for the halfwit who asked) the Rose Bowl. Controlled it right to a loss.

What, you guys read the headline and did not read the post?

Maybe it should have said "Little part-time running backs don't control games."

tulexan
01-10-2006, 12:53 AM
So Tiki Barber doesn't control games?

HJam72
01-10-2006, 01:04 AM
Actually, you're right. RBs don't USUALLY control games. Neither do QBs. LINEMEN control games. Games are won and lost in the trenches.

Just ask Steve Mckinney. :)

Hookem Horns
01-10-2006, 01:04 AM
So Tiki Barber doesn't control games?

Sadly, not always. The Panthers stacked it up against him and the Giants were beat because of their weakness at the QB position.

Hookem Horns
01-10-2006, 01:09 AM
I seriously can't wait to see you UT fans reaction when they annouce Reggie as the first pick instead of Vince.

... I can wait to see ALL Texans fans faces as Vince is lighting up the Texans in a Titans jersey while Carr still struggles and our Eric Metcalf (Reggie Bush) isn't enough to make a huge difference.

HJam72
01-10-2006, 01:14 AM
I'd take Young before I'd risk taking Bush. I'd also play Wells more than I would DD, but then, I like to have a RB who can pass block.

Hookem Horns
01-10-2006, 01:18 AM
I'd take Young before I'd risk taking Bush. I'd also play Wells more than I would DD, but then, I like to have a RB who can pass block.

If we get Kubiak, I would like to see what he can do with Wells and DD. Maybe it is coincidence, but he has had better success with RB's than QB's.

HJam72
01-10-2006, 01:27 AM
If we get Kubiak, I would like to see what he can do with Wells and DD. Maybe it is coincidence, but he has had better success with RB's than QB's.

I think he can get even more yardage out of them, but I don't see how he's gonna get DD to block better, unless maybe it just requires staying on his butt about it, sort of like Buchannon with the tackling.

I was just thinking about the Texans 2nd year and DD's rookie season. He got over 1000 yds. in like 11 games, I think it was, but we still only won one more game than our inaugural season when he wasn't with us. Why? Probably a serious lack of RB pass blocking. So, they used his superior pass catching ability, but that just led to dump off, after dump-off, after dump-off. DD can run it, but I still don't think he's the best RB on this team.

Bush? He won't pass block either. I just don't see that happening. We'll have two highly paid RBs who can't pass block. Result: I not happy.

GoBlue
01-10-2006, 01:46 AM
Sadly, not always. The Panthers stacked it up against him and the Giants were beat because of their weakness at the QB position.
The Panthers beat them badly because they won the battle in the trenches- their D-line beat up the Giants O-line and their QB had no time to throw. Wait a minute, that sounds familiar...

Texans86
01-10-2006, 02:23 AM
Would I be too logical to think that Casserly and McNair realize that football is a game won by the guys no one talks about. The biggest guys on a football team get the least amount of credit. They don't need flash, they use brute force and superior technique. I may be giving Casserly too much credit, but I think he may know something about football, and I hope he does what's right for the team, not what's popular with the fans. I could care less if Reggie Bush ran for 5000 yards and Vince passed for 10000, both on other teams. I want the Texans to win. Offensive linemen, and defensive linemen have been proven time and time again to be the difference in most games. Once quarterbacks get to this level, they are really good, and when given time make good decisions. So working both sides of the ball, if the offensive line is good, the quarterback and runningback look really good. When the defensive line is good, it makes the other team's job much more difficult.

bubbajaxonbrown
01-10-2006, 02:36 AM
Would I be too logical to think that Casserly and McNair realize that football is a game won by the guys no one talks about. The biggest guys on a football team get the least amount of credit. They don't need flash, they use brute force and superior technique. I may be giving Casserly too much credit, but I think he may know something about football, and I hope he does what's right for the team, not what's popular with the fans. I could care less if Reggie Bush ran for 5000 yards and Vince passed for 10000, both on other teams. I want the Texans to win. Offensive linemen, and defensive linemen have been proven time and time again to be the difference in most games. Once quarterbacks get to this level, they are really good, and when given time make good decisions. So working both sides of the ball, if the offensive line is good, the quarterback and runningback look really good. When the defensive line is good, it makes the other team's job much more difficult.

The debate over who controls the game is ridiculous. It all depends on the coaching style. In Denver, yes, the RB controls the game. In Indy, the QB controls the game (yeah I know Edge rushes for a lot of yards but who calls the running play at the line of scrimmage in the no-huddle offense? Peyton Manning-a QB). Both have proven to be valuable depending on the offense you run. I think as far as history goes, the most common #1 pick in NFL drafts is the QB b/c teams identify their poor performance with poor QB play. Also the upside of a good QB is greater than that of a good RB. A QB touches the ball on every offensive play where a RB touches the ball up to 35 times a game (depending on the offense of course). So the QB has more opportunity to excel and show his worth (or his unworthiness).

Let's just all agree in the heirarchy of importance between QB and RB for the Texans will depend on who the next HC is. If it's Kubiak or Linehan, then don't be surprised if we pick Bush. If it's anyone else, don't be surprised if we take Young or trade the pick down.

Big B Texan Fan
01-10-2006, 02:42 AM
Marshall Faulk used to control games.

Ricky Williams controlled games before he went loco. I don't think that the Dolphins were riding the awesome performance of Jay Fiedler week in and week out.

Tiki Barber has been controlling games this year.

Larry Johnson sure did control the game against us and most other teams this year.
Kurt Warner used to control games
Joe Montana used to control games
Marino used to control games
Cunningham used to control games

Carr has controlled all of our games into a 2-14 season.
Bring him home

Big B Texan Fan
01-10-2006, 02:56 AM
Would I be too logical to think that Casserly and McNair realize that football is a game won by the guys no one talks about. The biggest guys on a football team get the least amount of credit. They don't need flash, they use brute force and superior technique. I may be giving Casserly too much credit, but I think he may know something about football, and I hope he does what's right for the team, not what's popular with the fans. I could care less if Reggie Bush ran for 5000 yards and Vince passed for 10000, both on other teams. I want the Texans to win. Offensive linemen, and defensive linemen have been proven time and time again to be the difference in most games. Once quarterbacks get to this level, they are really good, and when given time make good decisions. So working both sides of the ball, if the offensive line is good, the quarterback and runningback look really good. When the defensive line is good, it makes the other team's job much more difficult.

You gotta have someone to block for.
You don't have to have 5 1st rounders on your line. Good scouting and drafting and trading and developing is where you get those line-men. Maybe you use a 1st rounder on a line-men or two eventually. Thing is we should have already done this but we have not. Last years draft would have been perfect if we would've that 1st overall pick. Not this draft, it's chock full of talent (line-men included). We can get a starting worthy T in the second in this draft. Just look at it from last years viewpoint. If we do take a T in the 2nd, it'll be like getting them in last years 1st. Last years draft was weak ffor line-men and everyone knew it.

Nighthawk
01-10-2006, 03:42 AM
The debate over who controls the game is ridiculous. It all depends on the coaching style. In Denver, yes, the RB controls the game. In Indy, the QB controls the game (yeah I know Edge rushes for a lot of yards but who calls the running play at the line of scrimmage in the no-huddle offense? Peyton Manning-a QB). Both have proven to be valuable depending on the offense you run. I think as far as history goes, the most common #1 pick in NFL drafts is the QB b/c teams identify their poor performance with poor QB play. Also the upside of a good QB is greater than that of a good RB. A QB touches the ball on every offensive play where a RB touches the ball up to 35 times a game (depending on the offense of course). So the QB has more opportunity to excel and show his worth (or his unworthiness).

Let's just all agree in the heirarchy of importance between QB and RB for the Texans will depend on who the next HC is. If it's Kubiak or Linehan, then don't be surprised if we pick Bush. If it's anyone else, don't be surprised if we take Young or trade the pick down.

This seems kind of an interesting idea. Back when we had Earl would you say Earl or Pastorini "controlled" the game? Who picked up the team and carried it on his back? Probably Earl, right? I'd say that, too. But Earl was anything but a frail 185lb 15-touch back. Earl was give-me-the-freaking-ball-now. ANd we did. It ruined him, of course, just like all the pundits said it would. But they were glory years until it did.

I was thinking of some kind of metaphysical "control" when I first posted. I mean, Bush would clearly be a big help to the team, I don't doubt that. But could he single-handedly "carry" the team, even on his best day? That I'm not at all sure about. Once in a season he might, presuming he's stronger and less fragile than he looks.

On the other hand, could Young single-handedly "carry" the team when he needed to? I don't think there's any question about that.

And that, Mrs. Whistledoodle, was the point I was after.

Scooter
01-10-2006, 04:15 AM
You gotta have someone to block for.
You don't have to have 5 1st rounders on your line. Good scouting and drafting and trading and developing is where you get those line-men. Maybe you use a 1st rounder on a line-men or two eventually. Thing is we should have already done this but we have not. Last years draft would have been perfect if we would've that 1st overall pick. Not this draft, it's chock full of talent (line-men included). We can get a starting worthy T in the second in this draft. Just look at it from last years viewpoint. If we do take a T in the 2nd, it'll be like getting them in last years 1st. Last years draft was weak ffor line-men and everyone knew it.

tell denver that. good blocking creates good rb's. the steelers sent 3 O-linemen to the probowl and look what happens. a rookie qb wins 14 games last year, and was willie parker even drafted?

we've got the worst line in football despite signing free agents and drafting guys in rounds 2+. do you really trust casserly to hit a homerun this time when he's failed the last 4 years? we need atleast 2 new starters on our line, and last time i checked, reggie bush is a little too small to play left tackle. even if reggie CAN walk on water, he cant outrun dwight freeney & robert mathis to the sideline without much better blocking than we have now.

TheOgre
01-10-2006, 05:45 AM
Tell that to Shaun Alexander, LT, Tiki Barber, Carnell Williams, the Denver Duo, the Steelers, and the numerous other effective rushing attacks in the NFL.

Nighthawk
01-10-2006, 06:59 AM
Tell that to Shaun Alexander, LT, Tiki Barber, Carnell Williams, the Denver Duo, the Steelers, and the numerous other effective rushing attacks in the NFL.

Again, you're reading the headline, not the thread. The thread is about whether Bush, as a 185-190 lb 5'10" 15 touch per game running back can "control" the game, that is, can more or less win it by himself. As opposed to a touch the ball every play QB like VY.

The only argument is that if you believe we need a solid rock on which to build the team, you probably favor drafting Young. If you believe we already have that rock in Carr, you believe we draft Bush.

Some believe neither of these, and that Carr is an "adequate" QB, and what we need is OLine and D help. While I do NOT agree with the first (Carr) part of this, I do agree with the second, though I don't think we have to use the first pick in the draft to address OLine and D.

Instead, if we trade Carr we can get (a) the QB of the future and the foundation of the team for the next decade or more in Young, and (b) with current picks and pick(s) from Carr trade, additional help in the OLine and in the D.

TheOgre
01-10-2006, 07:12 AM
Tiki Barber controls the game for the Giants and he is one inch shorter than Bush and almost the same exact weight. Look at the season Warrick Dunn had. I wasn't a big Bush backer initially, but I like his explosiveness, breakaway speed, and pass blocking abilities. If we get him, we can trade Morency or (or perhaps even DD) for something like a 3rd rounder or a player.

texansfan1974
01-10-2006, 07:29 AM
All this debating against each other is stupid. The Texans have already committed to Bush. I like this myself I think it will we be good for us to have another playmaker on the team along with A.J. At this point I think the best thing to do is to trade down with the Titans for a 1st rounder next year. We can pick Bush at #3 let the Titans take Young at #1. This will also save us some money. About 4 to 6 million. ( And thats my :twocents: )

HJam72
01-10-2006, 10:11 AM
Actually, Bush won't be another play-maker along with AJ. He will be ANOTHER AJ, lol. If we take him, we just spent a #1 pick and a lot of freaking money to solve our problems with the RECEIVING core.

Frills
01-10-2006, 10:15 AM
I seriously can't wait to see you UT fans reaction when they annouce Reggie as the first pick instead of Vince.

They'll sip tea and complain about it...look at the Johnson pick last year.

Vince left so he could get drafted by Tenn, not Houston...McNair is a father to him

Hervoyel
01-10-2006, 11:59 AM
...

tulexan
01-10-2006, 12:02 PM
Tennessee is getting ready for him. Didn't McNair just restructure his contract?

texansfan1974
01-10-2006, 12:30 PM
Young will be a Titan he is going there this offseason to workout with McNair. He will also be learning the Titan off. Sounds to me that the Titans are already counting on Young to be there at #3 or do they know something we dont know.