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LongBignasty1
01-09-2006, 06:25 PM
David Carr and Vince Young are totally opposite when it comes to the respect and leadership of their team. When the texans were 1- 12 and Carr threw a TD pass he ran down the field like he just won the national championship with his arms all in the air. Vince Young in the national championship game going against the USC dynasty, on a 4th and 5 and down with less than 2 minutes scores to win the game. What does he do? He tucks the ball into his arm and walks off the field. Which QB garners the respect of his team? The one who acts like he has been there before.

Vince Young for Houstons Texans QB!

tulexan
01-09-2006, 06:40 PM
So he isn't a leader because he doesn't show enough emotion after games, but he also isn't a leader because he shows too much emotion when they score touchdowns.

Which one is it?

I guess McNabb is a terrible leader because he celebrates after he scores touchdowns too.

LongBignasty1
01-09-2006, 06:48 PM
No, but i appreciate you trying to warp a simple statement, you don't pretend you just won the superbowl when your team is 1-12 and you score.

You also don't smile and joke around with your teammates when your getting your @$$ handed to you by the opposition. Tulexan you amaze me with your broad scope of vision with Carr and your narrowmindedness when it comes to Vince Young. I'm sure soon enough i'll come to expect it of you as you fail to keep an objective opinion on this matter. Oh by the way if the Texans don't draft Young do you think he will be a pro-bowl QB?

tulexan
01-09-2006, 07:01 PM
So should he just be sullen all of the time? These guys play football because they like it. If they score a touchdown they are going to be happy. They aren't going to drag their feet up the field with their head down.

I think Vince Young has the potential to be a pro bowl QB just like every other QB in the league. If 6th round pick Tom Brady can be one, anyone can be one including David Carr and Vince Young. But he like every other QB has the potential to be a bust. I don't necessarily think that he will be one, but the transition from college to the NFL for a QB is harder than any other position.

Vince is a work in progress and will take a few years before he is starter material. My main concern about him is his lack of arm strength and that all running QB's slow down once they get in the league. His improvements in his passing have been impressive, but I am not yet convinced that he can beat you solely with his arm in the next level which is what he is going to have to do in a lot of games.

LongBignasty1
01-09-2006, 07:07 PM
Fair enough, except i do not think any QB in the league can be a pro bowl QB.
Quincy Carter? Drew Henson? Chris Simms? NO!!! C'mon guy, be realistic about it, Reggie Bush could also be a bust. Any argument should at least use points that can't be used for or against both sides. Please gimme something worthwhile!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tulexan
01-09-2006, 07:12 PM
Maybe not every QB, but you get my point. To be a pro bowl QB you don't have to be a top pick in the draft. And that can be said about any position.

You are right, Reggie could be a bust. But at least if he is a bust it will have less of a negative impact on our team. If we commit to Vince and he is a bust then our team is screwed. If we commit to Reggie and he is a bust then we just have one less weapon on offense.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 07:25 PM
Maybe not every QB, but you get my point. To be a pro bowl QB you don't have to be a top pick in the draft. And that can be said about any position.

You are right, Reggie could be a bust. But at least if he is a bust it will have less of a negative impact on our team. If we commit to Vince and he is a bust then our team is screwed. If we commit to Reggie and he is a bust then we just have one less weapon on offense.


Pro Bowl QBS
Peyton Manning #1 overall
Carson Palmer #1 overall
Mike Vick #1 Overall

You dont have to be.....but it certainly helps

tulexan
01-09-2006, 07:36 PM
Pro Bowl QBS
Peyton Manning #1 overall
Carson Palmer #1 overall
Mike Vick #1 Overall

You dont have to be.....but it certainly helps


Forgot to mention

Jake Delhomme undrafted
Matt Hasselbeck 6th round
Tom Brady 6th round

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 08:48 PM
Forgot to mention

Jake Delhomme undrafted
Matt Hasselbeck 6th round
Tom Brady 6th round

Wasnt so much an ommission as my lack of awareness of the probowlers....so its 50/50?

Huge
01-09-2006, 09:16 PM
Maybe not every QB, but you get my point. To be a pro bowl QB you don't have to be a top pick in the draft. And that can be said about any position.

You are right, Reggie could be a bust. But at least if he is a bust it will have less of a negative impact on our team. If we commit to Vince and he is a bust then our team is screwed. If we commit to Reggie and he is a bust then we just have one less weapon on offense.
Why? Is Reggie Bush the only option at RB for the Texans? Why can't they take a RB in the later rounds, free agency or in the next draft?

Long-Spurs-Texan
01-09-2006, 09:23 PM
What makes Vince SO special is that he has the leadership qualities of a Favre AND the athletic abilities of Vick. VY has icewater in his veins when the stakes are at the absolute highest. THEN he delivers the win. There are only a few like that, and Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, John Elway come to mind. This mix hasn't been seen since Elway at this position. Take a look at a few that come to mind.

Alex Smith - Smart, not so athletic. Too soon on leadership.

Vick - Athletic to the max. Leader, not so much.
It's all about Vick, just ask him

David Carr - Maybe? He is tough, I'll give him that.

Tom Brady - Leader first, skills improved, athlete 3rd.

Akili Smith - Athlete, poor leader.

Ryan Leaf - See above.

Brett Favre - Leader has his picture in the dictionary. If he was all that Athletic, maybe he wouldn't have been traded by the Falcons.

Mcnabb - Athlete AND leader.

Peyton Manning - ALL the goods.

Byron Leftwich - Athlete & good leader.

Chris Simms - Athletic, not a great leader.

Major Applewhite - The opposite.

Kordell Stewart - Athlete, poor leader.

Joey Harrington - Sucks on all counts.

Kyle Boller - See above.

Patrick Ramsey - Somewhat athletic, not a leader.

Mark Brunell - Running on leadership alone at this point.

Drew Brees - Leader, and smart.

Jake Delhomme - See above.

Matt Hasselbeck - See above

Dante Culpepper - Athletic. Leadership questioned.

Tim Couch - Athletic, poor leader.

Steve Mcnair - Athletic, great leader.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 09:26 PM
Because Reggie isn't just a RB. I don't believe there is a single RB in the draft who could start either as a WR or a RB on most teams in the league. If you can find one then please tell me. Maurice Drew is a Reggie Bush Lite, but he is too small to line up as a receiver.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 09:26 PM
What makes Vince SO special is that he has the leadership qualities of a Favre AND the athletic abilities of Vick. This hasn't been seen since Elway at this position. Take a look at a few that come to mind.

Alex Smith - Smart, not so athletic. Too soon on leadership.

Vick - Athletic to the max. Leader, not so much.
It's all about Vick, just ask him

David Carr - Maybe? He is tough, I'll give him that.

Tom Brady - Leader first, skills improved, athlete 3rd.

Akili Smith - Athlete, poor leader.

Ryan Leaf - See above.

Brett Favre - Leader has his picture in the dictionary. If he was all that Athletic, maybe he wouldn't have been traded by the Falcons.

Mcnabb - Athlete AND leader.

Peyton Manning - ALL the goods.

Byron Leftwich - Athlete & good leader.

Chris Simms - Athletic, not a great leader.

Major Applewhite - The opposite.

Kordell Stewart - Athlete, poor leader.

Joey Harrington - Sucks on all counts.

Kyle Boller - See above.

Patrick Ramsey - Somewhat athletic, not a leader.

Mark Brunell - Running on leadership alone at this point.

Drew Brees - Leader, and smart.

Jake Delhomme - See above.

Matt Hasselbeck - See above

Dante Culpepper - Athletic. Leadership questioned.

Tim Couch - Athletic, poor leader.

Steve Mcnair - Athletic, great leader.

\

How in the world did major applewhite creep onto your list?

tulexan
01-09-2006, 09:28 PM
I wouldn't say that Vince Young is athletic as Michael Vick. He is neither as strong nor as fast as Vick. He is closer to McNabb without the arm strength.

Long-Spurs-Texan
01-09-2006, 09:32 PM
LOL, I can't say the word Simms without Applewhite! Tulexan, Helmethair Kiper says that Vince projects better now than Vick does now. Booya.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 09:37 PM
Hasn't Kiper always said that Vick was overrated?

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 09:38 PM
Hasn't Kiper always said that Vick was overrated?


mel kiper is overrated

tulexan
01-09-2006, 09:41 PM
but he does have some nice hair.

i've always thought that Mel's big board was kind of a cop out for avoiding to do mock drafts. this way he can't say that he was wrong during the draft.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 09:44 PM
but he does have some nice hair.

i've always thought that Mel's big board was kind of a cop out for avoiding to do mock drafts. this way he can't say that he was wrong during the draft.


finally we agree on something....on a side note, someone keeps taking potshots at my rep points.....is it you?

tulexan
01-09-2006, 09:53 PM
not me.

Grid
01-09-2006, 10:18 PM
It may be true that Carr isnt the leader that Young is.. but Carr is alot more intelligent.. you can see it in his eyes. And he has a much greater understanding of the game.


(no im not being serious.. i just figure we could start making up some stuff to support Carr, so long as we are making up stuff to dog him)

tulexan
01-09-2006, 10:21 PM
You mean you don't agree that he is a bad leader because he shows too much emotion and not enough?

MorKnolle
01-09-2006, 10:35 PM
Carr is not a very vocal leader, but I don't see Vince being a vocal leader very much in their games this year either. Carr plays with unbelievable toughness and determination to do whatever it takes for his team, and takes a lot of physical abuse in the process, and that speaks volumes to his teammates and some fans (myself included). At the same time, the past few years this team has had veteran leaders to be the voice of the team in the lockerroom (Aaron Glenn, Jamie Sharper, Gary Walker, etc.) and with Carr being a young player it wasn't really his place to be the vocal leader of the team. Many of these leaders were cut in the offseason, and the team never found a sense of its identity, Carr could have, maybe should have stepped up more, but at the same time no one really did. Despite what some people on this board think, players on the team do respect Carr, and he is starting to come into his own as a leader on the team, and without having any other veteran leadership other than Gary Walker, and with a coaching staff that seemed to lack a commanding respect from the players. Some people think Vince is some kind of magical leader, but rookies are generally never really the leader of the team in team sports, especially football. Vince will take at least one, probably two years just to get his quarterbacking skills up to the level he needs to be able to play well in this league, and until he does get that and the rest of the mental aspect of the NFL game down, he will not be a leader on the team. NFL veterans, especially guys liike Gary Walker, aren't going to give a rip about Vince's success and "leadership skills" in college and guyslike him aren't going to suddenly be wowed over by a rookie, it is going to take Vince several years to gather that respect from the players and be in a position to be a true leader on this or any other team.

htxfan
01-09-2006, 10:43 PM
Speaking of Gary Walker, here was his take on Young in the Houston Chronicle on January 5, 2006.

""If he comes out, he should be the No. 1 pick in the draft. What an athlete. Bush is a great player, too, but I don't think he's better than Vince Young."

beerlover
01-09-2006, 11:26 PM
Here is leadership for you- we should lockdown all this talk concerning what or who the Texans will do concerning the #1 overall pick in the draft. imagine some poor guy/gal wins the lotto and all that money but when he/she gets it don't know what to do with it, thats kinda what we got here. look I love to talk draft but this is driving me :hairpull: if its driving me :hairpull: then chances are its doing the same thing to you, deep breaths :ok:

Long-Spurs-Texan
01-10-2006, 08:28 AM
NFL veterans, especially guys liike Gary Walker, aren't going to give a rip about Vince's success and "leadership skills" in college and guyslike him aren't going to suddenly be wowed over by a rookie, it is going to take Vince several years to gather that respect from the players and be in a position to be a true leader on this or any other team.

Kind of like the veteran Steelers & Big Ben, right? Ben started as a rookie for a successful, cohesive group of players. They bought what Ben was selling, hook line & sinker. Winning is contagious, and people follow a winner. Just ask Ben & Vince.

cap1
01-10-2006, 08:35 AM
David Carr and Vince Young are totally opposite when it comes to the respect and leadership of their team. When the texans were 1- 12 and Carr threw a TD pass he ran down the field like he just won the national championship with his arms all in the air. Vince Young in the national championship game going against the USC dynasty, on a 4th and 5 and down with less than 2 minutes scores to win the game. What does he do? He tucks the ball into his arm and walks off the field. Which QB garners the respect of his team? The one who acts like he has been there before.

Vince Young for Houstons Texans QB!

Big Nasty,
Did you start this post because you heard someone say this same thing on 610, or did you call in to 610 with this comment too?

The Preacher
01-10-2006, 08:46 AM
Kind of like the veteran Steelers & Big Ben, right? Ben started as a rookie for a successful, cohesive group of players. They bought what Ben was selling, hook line & sinker. Winning is contagious, and people follow a winner. Just ask Ben & Vince.

Kyle Orton QB'D his team to a playoff bye so should he be in there too? I don't think so but when you have the supporting cast ala Big Ben you don't have the pressure to do everything. Just hand the ball off off and watch your defense dominate. Carr has everything Delhomme has if you ask me and probably more he just needs the team around him so he can settle in and stop forcing things like Plummer has achieved. It won't matter who the QB is in the end anyway because the team wins championships. Building the defense and getting a decent line and maybe a TE seems to me at least the best way for this team to reach the ultimate goal. The way you do that is by trading down for picks.

TheOgre
01-10-2006, 09:32 AM
VY for Governor of Texas in 2034!!! I'm starting the race early.

MorKnolle
01-10-2006, 10:22 AM
Kind of like the veteran Steelers & Big Ben, right? Ben started as a rookie for a successful, cohesive group of players. They bought what Ben was selling, hook line & sinker. Winning is contagious, and people follow a winner. Just ask Ben & Vince.

Ben Roethlisberger is not a vocal leader on that team either. He was put into a situation in which any QB that can reasonably take care of the ball can succeed, and he has done so pretty well, but you saw how quickly the Steelers fans turned on him last year after they lost to the Patriots in the playoffs despite guiding them to a 15-1 regular season. If Vince Young can somehow come on and be the QB for this team and we go 15-1 then he will be viewed as a great leader too, but that is very unlikely, what is more likely is this team will go 3-13 or 4-12 and people will start clamoring about how we used so much money and the #1 pick on a guy that can't pick the team up out of the gutter.

Long Baller
01-10-2006, 12:58 PM
I have been listening to a lot of talk about Carr vs. Young as leaders. Let me say I am a huge Young fan but I am a Texans fan first.

1. Carr is not a leader because he shows so much emotion when something good happens and Young is a leader because he is so calm and cool. Well I have been hearing for years that Bagwell and Biggio are not leaders because they show no emotion and act so business like. If that is so how can Carr be labeled not a leader because he shows emotion? I think this is more about competitive style then leadership.

2. The success of the team is a direct relationship to Carr's leadership abilities. We have not seen Young in a lossing situation, so how would he react to the punishment that Carr has taken for 4 years. I think a leader on the field is someone that teamates feel can make a play when needed. Carr has shown abilities to make plays but I think to often the game plan has limited his chances. I can remember in year 2 when he scored that winning TD against the Jags everyone thought he was the 2nd coming.

Carr has work to do, but to say he can not lead is something that I don't think most fans can really judge. We know so little about what really happens behind the scenes that we are only speculating based on very limited information.

Huge
01-10-2006, 01:09 PM
Because Reggie isn't just a RB. I don't believe there is a single RB in the draft who could start either as a WR or a RB on most teams in the league. If you can find one then please tell me. Maurice Drew is a Reggie Bush Lite, but he is too small to line up as a receiver.
So if they draft Reggie and he turns out to be a bust, the Texans could potentially be screwed at two positions: RB because that's his primary position. WR because they drafted him with the expectation of him helping out there.

Right?


Leadership comes from respect. Respect comes from having your teammates believe in you. Having your teammates believe in you comes from making the play that puts your team in position to win on a consistent basis. You have to have confidence in yourself that no matter the situation, you're going to be the one that makes the play to win. I have called David Carr many a thing over the years...some good, some bad. But "confident" has never been one of them.

Doesn't make him a bad guy or a bad QB. But it will keep him from becoming a great QB.

tulexan
01-10-2006, 01:14 PM
So if they draft Reggie and he turns out to be a bust, the Texans could potentially be screwed at two positions: RB because that's his primary position. WR because they drafted him with the expectation of him helping out there.

Right?


No we will just go back to using a single back system than a dual back system. A bad running back or a bad wide receiver does much less damage to a team than a bad QB.

I can guarantee that if Vince is on this team and is a bust it will do much more damage to the team than if Reggie is on this team and is a bust.

Huge
01-10-2006, 01:20 PM
No we will just go back to using a single back system than a dual back system. A bad running back or a bad wide receiver does much less damage to a team than a bad QB.

I can guarantee that if Vince is on this team and is a bust it will do much more damage to the team than if Reggie is on this team and is a bust.
So if David Carr is a bust (and there's been no evidence to suggest he's not), how would the team still be okay with Bush?

Basically my POV is this: You give me Young and a 2nd round RB (or free agent...or whatever), and you take Carr and Bush and I'll win.

Need proof? See this year's Rose Bowl. Only some might think Leinart is a better QB than Carr.

Big B Texan Fan
01-10-2006, 01:32 PM
Young had reports coming out that he is a tremendous leader. ESPN,FOX,his teammates, coaches etc.....
We don't have a leader. Gary Walker is a leader by example but does speak when needed but it's usually to the tune of him being more of a bouncer. (If any sees Walker reading this try to distract him while I run)
Rememvr when Billy Pittman was asked who the vocal leaders were on offense? After saying "uhhh, welllll, ummmmm, uhhhh, Weigert likes to joke around and keep us loose".

tulexan
01-10-2006, 01:32 PM
Well if you use the Rose Bowl example you have to include you having an unbelievable OL and a great defense, while I would have a good OL and a mediocre defense.

Defense wins games, so you would win.