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View Full Version : Managment should admit that we are starting over


ojthecat
01-09-2006, 03:17 PM
Here is an idea:

Admit that we are starting over. Make a big deal about it. Trade Carr and take VY then have a huge pep rally for the new Texans and create a ton of excitement for the upcomming year. The fact is just 2 years ago we were the loudest stadium in the NFL and I think that if we do start over and admit it we could still sell out next years games and create the same kind of atmospere that we had our first 3 years.

Just a though

Wharton
01-09-2006, 03:19 PM
First thing first, we need a coach. The new coach will determine if we are starting over.

texan279
01-09-2006, 03:20 PM
How many times have I read trade Carr. We cannot trade Carr unless we sign him to an extension then trade him, and even if we did that we would take a cap hit.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 03:22 PM
How many close games did we lose this year?

Dunta_23
01-09-2006, 03:23 PM
Once a new coach is in place and assistants are hired, we will have a new team. They will influence draft selections, decide who plays and who should be released. As a young team with a new coach, they will most likely benefit from not having to "start over" because then they will be playing again like an expansion team with a ready made excuse of "rookie qb"...

Blake
01-09-2006, 03:30 PM
The reason that they dont say we are starting over, is because we arent.

We have cap room.
We have a QB, WR, RB combo.
And a new coach doesnt mean starting over.

Coach C.
01-09-2006, 03:45 PM
You understand that games will be sold out next year anyway. All those empty seats were paid for, just not sat in. Yeah they lost a little on overpriced merchandise and concessions, but at the start of next season everything will be right in Texans land, that is whether Reggie, VY, or whoever comes in.

tsip
01-09-2006, 03:51 PM
How many close games did we lose this year?

...close games to losing teams is still a loss, just like close wins are still a win--does that change the record?...don't think so, we're still 2-14

travfrancis
01-09-2006, 03:52 PM
How many close games did we lose this year?

tulexan you are too much man.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 03:58 PM
...close games to losing teams is still a loss, just like close wins are still a win--does that change the record?...don't think so, we're still 2-14

I think there is a big difference between having a lot of close losses rather than blow outs. Close losses means that you are still being competitve and that it came down to a few plays at the end of the game. The pendulum of the victory could have swung our way but it didn't. Being blown out every week means that you are completely over matched. We lost several games on the last play of the game. As a result we were the worst team in the league. When Carolina went to the Super Bowl on the other hand, there were several games where they won in the final seconds of a game with a field goal or a blocked extra point. They could have easily been a middle of the pack or bottom of the barrel team that year but instead they were in the Super Bowl.

Coach C.
01-09-2006, 04:01 PM
Someone on the Draft VY camp please list in an intelligent and non-emotional way the traits, stats, and intangibles that make VY the right pick please... I want stats that show a consistency in his play also if that is possible, I personally thing Young will be a good QB but I want to know why you people want him here.

BattleRedRaider
01-09-2006, 04:08 PM
Apparently, Vince Young's performance against USC is reason enough to warrant a draft pick from us. Don't get me wrong, I know he did great and all, but how come he couldn't do this against RICE?

Against USC:

30-40 267 yards, 19 rushes for 200 yards, 3 TD's

Against Rice:

8-14 101 yards, 1 INT, 8 carries for 77 yards, 0 TD'S total

Even if he only played for 3 quarters, he couldn't even score against them.

YellerLotYeller
01-09-2006, 04:14 PM
Apparently, Vince Young's performance against USC is reason enough to warrant a draft pick from us. Don't get me wrong, I know he did great and all, but how come he couldn't do this against RICE?

Against USC:

30-40 267 yards, 19 rushes for 200 yards, 3 TD's

Against Rice:

8-14 101 yards, 1 INT, 8 carries for 77 yards, 0 TD'S total

Apparently, he knows how to step it up a notch in a big game.
To VY, it seems like winning means a lot more than just padding stats.

Dennis007
01-09-2006, 04:15 PM
Someone on the Draft VY camp please list in an intelligent and non-emotional way the traits, stats, and intangibles that make VY the right pick please... I want stats that show a consistency in his play also if that is possible, I personally thing Young will be a good QB but I want to know why you people want him here.


RAT
Vince Young 163.95

David Carr 77.2

Even factoring in college vs NFL, that still looks like a butt spanking to me!:boxing:

BattleRedRaider
01-09-2006, 04:17 PM
Apparently, he knows how to step it up a notch in a big game.
To VY, it seems like winning means a lot more than just padding stats.

It wouldn't be too hard to "step it up" against that USC defense. Don't you think if Rice was shutting him down, he'd at least "step it up" there? He wouldn't be padding stats, just show that he is a better player than what actually was in that game.

BattleRedRaider
01-09-2006, 04:19 PM
RAT
Vince Young 163.95

David Carr 77.2

Even factoring in college vs NFL, that still looks like a butt spanking to me!:boxing:

Oh sure, let's see VY zone-read and option, run Shotgun offenses, and chuck it deep in the NFL. He'd get the same stats, wouldn't he?

abbest
01-09-2006, 04:20 PM
First thing first, we need a coach. The new coach will determine if we are starting over.After going 2-14 why are you in denial. We are going from the bottom of the worst. If thats not starting over what is?

Runner
01-09-2006, 04:21 PM
RAT
Vince Young 163.95

David Carr 77.2

Even factoring in college vs NFL, that still looks like a butt spanking to me!:boxing:

The highest QB rating possible in the NFL QB rating system is 158.33; I think this is a comparison of apples and oranges. Don't they call the college rating QB efficiency or something?

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ramblings.php?p=166&cat=1

Dennis007
01-09-2006, 04:22 PM
Oh sure, let's see VY zone-read and option, run Shotgun offenses, and chuck it deep in the NFL. He'd get the same stats, wouldn't he?

I guess David Carr can chunk it deep in the NFL too?!:heh:
18-46 - Franchise QB record

BattleRedRaider
01-09-2006, 04:23 PM
I guess David Carr can chunk it deep in the NFL too?!:heh:
18-46 - Franchise QB record

You didn't answer my question. I couldn't care less if DC could chuck it deep himself.

Dennis007
01-09-2006, 04:24 PM
The highest QB rating possible in the NFL QB rating system is 158.33; I think this is a compariosn of apples and oranges. Don't they call the college rating QB efficiency or something?

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ramblings.php?p=166&cat=1

Not really, b/c the equivalent rating of 163 from College to NFl darn sure won't be 77.2!

We don't need Einstein Casserly's help to understand that one.:tomato:

BattleRedRaider
01-09-2006, 04:25 PM
Not really, b/c the equivalent rating of 163 from College to NFl darn sure won't be 77.2!

We don't need Einstein Casserly's help to understand that one.:tomato:

Dude, anyone can have the QB rating VY had with that UT O-line.

Dennis007
01-09-2006, 04:26 PM
Here we go, Sorry I forgot.. The O-line, which yes , our O-linesucks, Well tell Davie to run!

tulexan
01-09-2006, 04:28 PM
RAT
Vince Young 163.95

David Carr 77.2

Even factoring in college vs NFL, that still looks like a butt spanking to me!:boxing:


College and the NFL use different QB rating formulas. His number wouldn't be anywhere near that high in the NFL because the highest number possible is 158.3. This has been posted somewhere else, but his number would be somewhere in the low 100's using the NFL formula, but that is still against college defenses. I believe that Michael Vick's QB rating in college was 180.7 and now he has had a QB rating over 80 just once in his career and since David Carr has been in the league, has only had a better QB rating than him once and that was in David Carr's rookie season.

Runner
01-09-2006, 04:31 PM
Not really, b/c the equivalent rating of 163 from College to NFl darn sure won't be 77.2!

We don't need Einstein Casserly's help to understand that one.:tomato:

Correct, it probably won't.

That doesn't change the fact that it is an invalid comparison. It makes your case look weaker if you base it on invalid numbers. It looks especially silly when bad numbers are carried out to 2 decimal points to further the illusion of precision.

However, if accuracy means nothing to you, carry on - I'm sure your posts will be read with the same thought that you seem willing to put into them.

p.s. - I haven't made my mind up one who to draft, but I personally wouldn't be swayed by an argument based on such an inaccuracy.

Dennis007
01-09-2006, 04:35 PM
Correct, it probably won't.

That doesn't change the fact that it is an invalid comparison. It makes your case look weaker if you base it on invalid numbers. It looks especially silly when bad numbers are carried out to 2 decimal points to further the illusion of precision.

However, if accuracy means nothing to you, carry on - I'm sure your posts will be read with the same thought that you seem willing to put into them.

p.s. - I haven't made my mind up one who to draft, but I personally wouldn't be swayed by an argument based on such an inaccuracy.

Someone asked to compare stats and intangibles so that's what I did. Obviously he doesn't have NFL stats b/c he's just coming out this year! But you have to look at his stats in order to know if he's a good pick. And I think it shows he should be our pick.

Tell me why we should pay 8 million dollars to lose 3 more seasons? :dangit:

Runner
01-09-2006, 04:41 PM
Someone asked to compare stats and intangibles so that's what I did. Obviously he doesn't have NFL stats b/c he's just coming out this year! But you have to look at his stats in order to know if he's a good pick. And I think it shows he should be our pick.

Tell me why we should pay 8 million dollars to lose 3 more seasons? :dangit:

I just commented on the stats you used. If you want to stand by them, that's fine. Other posters will see both sides of the "stat issue" and evaluate our posts accordingly.

The Young vs. Bush vs. Trade is being discussed enough already. I'll add to what I've posted already if/when I can add fresh input.

JDizzle
01-09-2006, 04:53 PM
Vince's rating using the NFL's formula is 97.3 in his 2 full seasons as a starter.

Leinart's is 110.7, and that's with 675 more attempts, and an extra season. He's put up some solid - check that - fantastic numbers. I find it funny that Leinart is getting completely overlooked during all this.

Runner
01-09-2006, 04:54 PM
Vince's rating using the NFL's formula is 97.3 in his 2 full seasons as a starter.

Leinart's is 110.7, and that's with 675 more attempts.

Thank you.

Dennis007
01-09-2006, 04:57 PM
Yes, thank you, which helps my argument.

dtran04
01-09-2006, 04:58 PM
Didn't Mike Vick lead the NCAA with his QB rating for awhile? That should say something.

Runner
01-09-2006, 05:06 PM
Didn't Mike Vick lead the NCAA with his QB rating for awhile? That should say something.

What it says is that the overall competition in the NFL is higher than the overall competition in college, which stands to reason.

It would be interesting to see a list of many QBs (successful and unsuccessful) with their NFL QB rating compared to their adjusted college QB rating.

I'd think very few go up, but that's just an assumption.

JDizzle
01-09-2006, 05:10 PM
Didn't Mike Vick lead the NCAA with his QB rating for awhile? That should say something.

Did Vick have 1245 Attempts 64.5%, 10,693 Yds, 99TD's and only 23 picks in 3 yrs as a starter?

stevo3883
01-09-2006, 05:19 PM
Vince's rating using the NFL's formula is 97.3 in his 2 full seasons as a starter.

Leinart's is 110.7, and that's with 675 more attempts, and an extra season. He's put up some solid - check that - fantastic numbers. I find it funny that Leinart is getting completely overlooked during all this.

why use 2 years ago?

Vince posted an NFL qb rating of 109.2 this year, while rushing for 1050yds @ 6.8ypc and 12 td's

tulexan
01-09-2006, 05:24 PM
I think he is using career QB rating

JDizzle
01-09-2006, 05:25 PM
why use 2 years ago?

Vince posted an NFL qb rating of 109.2 this year, while rushing for 1050yds @ 6.8ypc and 12 td's

I said 2 full seasons as a starter ('04 AND '05), as in his rating using compiled stats from those 2 seasons, not just the '04 season.

ETA :

I think he is using career QB rating

Yeah, that's what I meant, thanks.

stevo3883
01-09-2006, 05:26 PM
and Matt Leinart posted an NFL qb rating of 107.6 this year.... says something doesnt it?

stevo3883
01-09-2006, 05:28 PM
I said 2 full seasons as a starter ('04 AND '05), as in his rating using compiled stats from those 2 seasons, not just the '04 season.

.



i know, and i said why use his stats from his sophomore year?

he improved immeasurably this season as a passer, and using compiled stats instead of his past seasons just works to discredit his marked improvement (which is shown by his higher NFL qb rating than leinart)

JDizzle
01-09-2006, 05:31 PM
and Matt Leinart posted an NFL qb rating of 107.6 this year.... says something doesnt it?

Ok, so he has a rating 1.6 points higher than Leinart for 2005, but when you factor in Leinart having 116 more attempts those 1.6 points don't matter all that much IMO.

JDizzle
01-09-2006, 05:40 PM
i know, and i said why use his stats from his sophomore year?

he improved immeasurably this season as a passer, and using compiled stats instead of his past seasons just works to discredit his marked improvement (which is shown by his higher NFL qb rating than leinart)

No. Carr's numbers improved remarkably from yr 2 - yr 3, but look what happened in yr 4. Hmmm .... I guess consistency isn't necessary if you're a Longhorn ...

stevo3883
01-09-2006, 05:40 PM
Ok, so he has a rating 1.6 points higher than Leinart for 2005, but when you factor in Leinart having 116 more attempts those 1.6 points don't matter all that much IMO.


no, they seem pretty equal as passers by nfl rating. But then Vince has 1000 rushing yards and 12 more td's....

those are numbers no qb has ever had before

stevo3883
01-09-2006, 05:42 PM
No. Carr's numbers improved remarkably from yr 2 - yr 3, but look what happened in yr 4. Hmmm .... I guess consistency isn't necessary if you're a Longhorn ...


what does Carr's regression have to do with anything?

has Vince done anything but progress his 3 years? no? then what are you talking about with that consitency comment?

tulexan
01-09-2006, 05:44 PM
He also was doing it in a pro style offense, not a spread offense where it is easier to put up big numbers.

TexanFanInCC
01-09-2006, 05:45 PM
The reason that they dont say we are starting over, is because we arent.

We have cap room.
We have a QB, WR, RB combo.
And a new coach doesnt mean starting over.

i would be STOKED if the texans drafted david thomas, TE from texas. he is arguably the best recieving TE in the draft and would be TREMENDOUS for david carr.

another question that looms in my mind is: will d.davis get every day time at RB while reggie bush gets a majority of the snaps as a WR?? what happens to domanick davis?? ya got to keep him involved in the offense. it would be a shame to see him fade out of the offense like billy miller did.

Dennis007
01-09-2006, 05:45 PM
what does Carr's regression have to do with anything?

has Vince done anything but progress his 3 years? no? then what are you talking about with that consitency comment?

What does Carr's regression have to do with anything? Wow.

Um, it will give you a 2-14 record. :loser

TexanFanInCC
01-09-2006, 05:47 PM
what does Carr's regression have to do with anything?

has Vince done anything but progress his 3 years? no? then what are you talking about with that consitency comment?

carr's numbers really are pretty good considering he was sacked 60+ times. name another QB that can match that.

stevo3883
01-09-2006, 05:48 PM
He also was doing it in a pro style offense, not a spread offense where it is easier to put up big numbers.


oh come on man.

#1 USC doesnt run a pro style offense. its a pac-10 basic WCO. Oregon, Cal, ASU...
#2 Leinart has 2 NFL caliber rb's, 2 nfl caliber receivers, an nfl caliber TE, and at least 3 nfl caliber linemen.

how could it possibly be easier for young to put up numbers in a run first offense with 2 sophmore and 1 fresman receiver, 2freshman rb's and 1 sophomore??

stevo3883
01-09-2006, 05:49 PM
What does Carr's regression have to do with anything? Wow.

Um, it will give you a 2-14 record. :loser

we were comparing Leinart and Young and for some reason Carr's regression in his 4th year was brought up.

and now our record this year is brought up... if youre talking about something else, please, fill me in. Because im talking about leinart vs. young

Dennis007
01-09-2006, 05:51 PM
we were comparing Leinart and Young and for some reason Carr's regression in his 4th year was brought up.

and now our record this year is brought up... if youre talking about something else, please, fill me in. Because im talking about leinart vs. young

Oh no, read it wrong..:cool:

sangien
01-09-2006, 05:52 PM
We are all emotional after the season we just endured. here are the facts.
Weakenesses from most pressing to least pressing.

O-Line (Pitts needs help)
Tight end(Bennie where are you?)
Linebacker (need big time run stopper)
Quarterback (Carr makes bad decisions looses his composure)
RCVR (mathis could be the answer)
runningback (do not need bush, DD is most productive member of team)
:brickwall

tulexan
01-09-2006, 05:55 PM
oh come on man.

#1 USC doesnt run a pro style offense. its a pac-10 basic WCO. Oregon, Cal, ASU...
#2 Leinart has 2 NFL caliber rb's, 2 nfl caliber receivers, an nfl caliber TE, and at least 3 nfl caliber linemen.

how could it possibly be easier for young to put up numbers in a run first offense with 2 sophmore and 1 fresman receiver, 2freshman rb's and 1 sophomore??


And Vince Young has the best OL in the country, a very good freshman RB, a good but not great versatile RB/WR, a NFL caliber TE, and a big WR.

He may not have the same weapons that USC does, but he doesn't have chopped liver surrounding him.

JDizzle
01-09-2006, 06:01 PM
what does Carr's regression have to do with anything?

has Vince done anything but progress his 3 years? no? then what are you talking about with that consitency comment?

I was trying to point out that regression is possible even if you've shown improvement, and since Carr's name was originally brought up I used him as an example. If you're going to look at Carr's entire pro-carreer, at least look at every other guy's entire carreer who you'd like to replace him with, not just the only good season he's had.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 06:12 PM
So he has one bad year after 2 years of improving and he has regressed? How do we know that it isn't just a bad year? Seems like everyone had a down year, does that mean we should get rid of all of them? Andre Johnson's yards, touchdowns, and YPC went down this year after showing improvement from year 1 to year 2. Does that mean that we should trade him and draft Santonio Holmes?

JDizzle
01-09-2006, 06:21 PM
I'm not "taking up" for Carr here, I'm just trying to point out to a few people that there are more sides to the square.

Wordem
01-09-2006, 06:33 PM
The Texans are the laughing stock of the NFL. Drafting VY changes that immediately. Drafting Bush does not. Young also brings more money to the Texans coffer. Bush will not sell nearly as much merchandise, especially outside of Houston.

Nighthawk
01-09-2006, 06:36 PM
Even if you do believe that Vince is the answer at QB, we do not at any point in time state that we are starting over, and mean it. We need reasons to win, not excuses to lose.

What are you talking about? You're all about excuses. Every post you make is an excuse for David Carr. Everything is based on the idea that Carr, after four years, will suddenly become Brett Favre. It's nonsense. Sure, he might improve. No doubt. Will he be as good as Vince Young? Seems very unlikely, inasmuch as VY looks to be already as good as, if not better than, Carr. I mean, Carr has really pretty much stunk it up in his attempt to move to the next level. He doesn't seem to be a leader or a powerful presence on the field (the team seems to react more positively to Banks, for that matter). Why should we keep beating our heads against this wall (Carr)? I mean, if we were a year in, or two years in, I might agree that we had not had to to fully assess his talent and potential. But it's four years going on five. He's competent at the very best.

Young gives you the instant QB of the future for this team.

I ask you this: can you honestly even IMAGINE Carr in the Hall of Fame? Can you IMAGINE Vince Young in the Hall? If you answer NO to the first, and YES to the second, as I do, then you should be for drafting Vince Young in a couple months.

JDizzle
01-09-2006, 06:58 PM
The Texans are the laughing stock of the NFL. Drafting VY changes that immediately. Drafting Bush does not. Young also brings more money to the Texans coffer. Bush will not sell nearly as much merchandise, especially outside of Houston.

That's one of the silliest comments I've ever read. Winning games earns you league-wide respect, not a draft pick, regardless of who it is. Both Bush AND Young are very, VERY marketable players. On one hand you have the Heisman winning, electrifying runner from USC, and on the other you have the hometown kid who just got over big time in the Rose Bowl. I'm not saying either will equate to wins, but both are very, very marketable in terms of merchandise and what-not.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 07:02 PM
So he has one bad year after 2 years of improving and he has regressed? How do we know that it isn't just a bad year? Seems like everyone had a down year, does that mean we should get rid of all of them? Andre Johnson's yards, touchdowns, and YPC went down this year after showing improvement from year 1 to year 2. Does that mean that we should trade him and draft Santonio Holmes?


7-9 to 2-14 isnt a bad year. Heck its not even regression..its atrocity.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 07:09 PM
Look at the Dolphins.

2001: 11-5
2002: 9-7
2003: 10-6
2004: 4-12
2005: 9-7

When it starts to become a trend you can start worrying. We had 3 years of improvement and 1 down year.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 07:11 PM
Look at the Dolphins.

2001: 11-5
2002: 9-7
2003: 10-6
2004: 4-12
2005: 9-7

When it starts to become a trend you can start worrying. We had 3 years of improvement and 1 down year.


We did start at 4-12...and improved to 5-11....and improved to 7-9.....its not like we had a 3 year dynasty running and this is an abberration.....we've NEVER been .500. .500 wont even get you a playoff spot. We've never had a winning season. IT IS a trend.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 07:31 PM
Yes and we are also an expansion team. Most draft picks take some time to develop.