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View Full Version : A Brief evaluation of Previous Quarterback Controversies


swtbound07
01-09-2006, 02:18 PM
I was thinking about the positives and negatives of making David Carr actually compete for his job. A few teams have been running dual Quarterback teams for a while now, and think about how things have gone.

Cinncinati.
Jon Kitna was the starter, performed poorly. Carson Palmer drafted #1 overall, Sits for a year. Kitna lights up nfl, but reins are handed over to Palmer anyway. Palmer turns into one of elite nfl qb's this year, Kitna one of the top 5 backups in the league.

VERDICT
Drafting carson palmer was a sucess. Kitna was motivated to play better, and the competition made cinncinati a better team

San Diego
Drew Brees was the starter, performed poorly. Phillip Rivers drafted #4 overall, comes into training camp fighting for the starting spot. Drew Brees is fighting for his job, becomes a pro bowl Qb.

VERDICT
Sucess. San diego motivated brees with rivers, and now have a very intriguing piece of trade bait in rivers, or one of the better backup prospects in the nfl.

Detroit.
Joey Harrington is the starter, performed poorly. Jeff Garcia brought in as a free agent to push for the spot. Joey Harrington is fighting for his job, loses spot to Garcia

VERDICT
Push. Joey failed to get motivated, and still performed poorly, while Garcia was merely adequate with the lions.


Green Bay
Brett Favre is the starter, and as of the last 2 years has performed pretty poorly. Aaron Rodgers is drafted #26, and is groomed to be QB of the future.

VERDICT
unknown. Favre is still playing like bad favre, and until he retires we wont have a look at aaron rodgers.

Pittsburgh
Tommy Maddox is the starter. Ben Rothlisberger is drafted #10 to compete for the starting spot. Maddox wins starting job, goes down in 3rd game of season. Big Ben leads his team on a 14 game winning streak, and goes deep into the playoffs for 2 consecutive seasons

VERDICT
Sucess. Maddox has showed flashes of being a capable starter, while rothlisberger is perfectly suited for the ball control offense pittsburgh runs.

New York Giants
Eli Manning and Kurt Warner are brought in simultaneously to play for the giants. Kurt starts out the season, giving eli time to learn and develop. At the end of the year, Eli takes over for Kurt, and takes the giants to the playoffs this year.

VERDICT
Sucess. The dual QB system seems to work an overwhelming number of times. Competition is good for QBs.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 02:20 PM
Except in none of those situations was the guy being replaced the teams #1 pick in the draft who had no offensive line or weapons.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 02:26 PM
Except in none of those situations was the guy being replaced the teams #1 pick in the draft who had no offensive line or weapons.


so your arguing that having competition WOULDNT be better for DC? Cause i dont think i mentioned anything about vince young in this post.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 02:29 PM
Competition may be good, but who would you like to bring in? Don't we have more pressing needs than a back up who most likely won't get any playing time?

Jerry
01-09-2006, 02:31 PM
Warner, Kitna, and Maddox were all old quarterbacks; Carr is young and could potentially be great. The quarterbacks brought in on those teams were definitely going to be the QB of the future--the only question was when. With Carr, he could still be our QB of the future if we get to see him with an average o-line and defense.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 02:36 PM
Warner, Kitna, and Maddox were all old quarterbacks; Carr is young and could potentially be great. The quarterbacks brought in on those teams were definitely going to be the QB of the future--the only question was when. With Carr, he could still be our QB of the future if we get to see him with an average o-line and defense.

drew brees was in his 3rd year. Carr is in his 5th year. Phillip Rivers wasnt DEFINITELY going to be the qb of the future, and still wasnt. True or false? San Diego, Pittsburgh, New York, Cinncinati, and Green Bay are all better off for having used high draft picks on QB's when they already had well known starters.

MorKnolle
01-09-2006, 02:58 PM
David Carr could definitley benefit from some competition, but at the same time it might not do much good either (Banks hasn't really helped much). Bringing in a competent QB coach could do wonders for Carr too, and the main situation with this team is we do certainly have many holes on the team, and using two #1 overall picks and investing a combined $18 million a year on those two QBs is not an ideal situation, especially with a poor OLine that is hindering Carr's development and will continue to do so with him or any other QB we bring in until it is fixed (coaching will help this too, but most of our guys are not starting-quality OLinemen). I would not be opposed to using a 4th round pick or so on a QB if a decent enough one is available (please no more Dave Ragones, but if Marcus Vick or especially someone like Omar Jacobs somehow fell then I'd have no problem getting them) or bring in a veteran QB that is more capable of mentoring and possibly subbing in for Carr than Tony Banks currently is.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 03:20 PM
David Carr could definitley benefit from some competition, but at the same time it might not do much good either (Banks hasn't really helped much). Bringing in a competent QB coach could do wonders for Carr too, and the main situation with this team is we do certainly have many holes on the team, and using two #1 overall picks and investing a combined $18 million a year on those two QBs is not an ideal situation, especially with a poor OLine that is hindering Carr's development and will continue to do so with him or any other QB we bring in until it is fixed (coaching will help this too, but most of our guys are not starting-quality OLinemen). I would not be opposed to using a 4th round pick or so on a QB if a decent enough one is available (please no more Dave Ragones, but if Marcus Vick or especially someone like Omar Jacobs somehow fell then I'd have no problem getting them) or bring in a veteran QB that is more capable of mentoring and possibly subbing in for Carr than Tony Banks currently is.


shrugs....tony banks is never pushing any body for pt. Im talking about a legitimate, star prospect qb, to wake david carr up.we have used 4 picks (hollings, davis, morency, wells) on running backs in the top 4 rounds of the draft. now everybody wants to draft #5??? at #1 overall? Carr is hindering Carrs development. The line didnt get significantly worse from year 3 to year 4. Carr did.

Your right. Bringing in a competent qb coach COULD fix david. However, its going to cost us many many many millions of dollars to see if he can be saved. Let the man walk, he isnt worth it.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 03:22 PM
Competition may be good, but who would you like to bring in? Don't we have more pressing needs than a back up who most likely won't get any playing time?

No, we dont have any more pressing need than getting the leader of our team on track, be that d. carr or v. young. Playing time or no, it makes a huge difference. Phillip Rivers hasnt seen the field to speak of in his career, but he made a world of difference to the chargers and drew brees. Remember, the chargers DID have the #4 pick the year they drafted rivers, and their record reflected it. Turnarounds can happen. Competition helps.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 03:30 PM
So are the additions of Antonio Gates, an OL, and a defense more important to Phillip Rivers?

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 05:02 PM
So are the additions of Antonio Gates, an OL, and a defense more important to Phillip Rivers?

i refuse to believe that the drew brees metamorphisis occured because of anything but rivers. He didnt get it, didnt get it, suddenly he is fighting for his job and he understands how to be an nfl quarterback. Competition is healthy. Draft Vince young, and david carr is gonna have to step it up a notch.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 05:11 PM
You're right, what effect does adding the best TE in the league and giving him time to throw do?

So you want us to spend $55-60 million to motivate David Carr?

Why not just bring in John Kitna and save $50 million?

LBC_Justin
01-09-2006, 06:12 PM
drew brees was in his 3rd year. Carr is in his 5th year. Phillip Rivers wasnt DEFINITELY going to be the qb of the future, and still wasnt. True or false? San Diego, Pittsburgh, New York, Cinncinati, and Green Bay are all better off for having used high draft picks on QB's when they already had well known starters.
The situation in Detroit is not a push. It is a failure.
The situation in Buffalo was also a failure.
It also didn't work out too swell in Arizona this year.
How well did the QB's do in San Fran this year?

I agree we need to have other options than Carr.

But our situation is different, than all of those you posted. Most of those are not "Quarterback Controversies".

Big Ben was not drafted because Maddox was playing poorly. They just signed Maddox to a long term deal.

Brett Farve is near Retirement and is on his way out. By the way that is the perfect example of how a GREAT QB plays when his O-line and playmakers are taken away from him. (Not really a Controversy....not a ton of Cal Bears at the game chanting "Bring in Rogers, Bring in Rogers")
We are replacing the #1 overall pick with another #1 overall pick.

No controversy in New York either. Kurk Warner was lucky he got an opportunity to revive his career in NY and EVERYONE there knew that Eli Manning was the guy, the future of the program and that Warner was just keeping Eli's seat warm. Period. There was very little controversy about it.

Drew Brees was a 2nd round pick, He WAS not the #1 overall pick in the draft. So if he didn't work out oh well.

Also in those cites you didn't have consultants and potential head coaching candidates saying, "you have a very talented young QB that has a bright future but needs to be given the tools to succeed.". In most of those other situations it did not involve giving up an amazing talent like Reggie Bush to bring in a "Back up".

If the Texans do draft Vince Young it will be a "Controversy" because the first INT that Carr throws the "We want Vince, chants will begin.". I can already see the three ring circus on sports center.

With all that said Vince Young still might be the right choice.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 06:46 PM
The situation in Detroit is not a push. It is a failure.
The situation in Buffalo was also a failure.
It also didn't work out too swell in Arizona this year.
How well did the QB's do in San Fran this year?

I agree we need to have other options than Carr.

But our situation is different, than all of those you posted. Most of those are not "Quarterback Controversies".

Big Ben was not drafted because Maddox was playing poorly. They just signed Maddox to a long term deal.

Brett Farve is near Retirement and is on his way out. By the way that is the perfect example of how a GREAT QB plays when his O-line and playmakers are taken away from him. (Not really a Controversy....not a ton of Cal Bears at the game chanting "Bring in Rogers, Bring in Rogers")
We are replacing the #1 overall pick with another #1 overall pick.

No controversy in New York either. Kurk Warner was lucky he got an opportunity to revive his career in NY and EVERYONE there knew that Eli Manning was the guy, the future of the program and that Warner was just keeping Eli's seat warm. Period. There was very little controversy about it.

Drew Brees was a 2nd round pick, He WAS not the #1 overall pick in the draft. So if he didn't work out oh well.

Also in those cites you didn't have consultants and potential head coaching candidates saying, "you have a very talented young QB that has a bright future but needs to be given the tools to succeed.". In most of those other situations it did not involve giving up an amazing talent like Reggie Bush to bring in a "Back up".

If the Texans do draft Vince Young it will be a "Controversy" because the first INT that Carr throws the "We want Vince, chants will begin.". I can already see the three ring circus on sports center.

With all that said Vince Young still might be the right choice.


Drew Brees was a 3rd round pick, not 2nd. I thought we all agreed that the round you were drafted in was no indication of sucess...i.e. brady, etc.

I ommitted buffalo and san francisco. You know why? Because i was evaluating circumstances where there were TWO legitimate quarterbacking options. The race between alex smith and.....ken dorsey? has no bearing on my arguement. Nor does the kelly holcumb/j.p. losman debacle. Warner/josh mcknown isnt really legit either. Mcknown never had a shot at that spot.

I will grant you, detroit was a failure. I was being too generous. our situation is EXACTLY like san diego. Quarterback of the future has busted so far, high draft pick, quality running back (davis), and one star offensive weapon(gates=johnson). Drafting Phillip Rivers WORKED. Reggie bush is not a once in a lifetime talent. He is not guaranteed success. He is not a freak of nature. Nor, for the record, is vince young. Carr isnt getting it done. He either needs to be replaced or motivated. Either way, Vince is the pick to do that. Davis performs fine. Reggie bush can go waste away in tennessee

tulexan
01-09-2006, 07:01 PM
You should probably omit New York too. Kerry Collins was the incumbent QB who was cut before the season started. Kurt Warner was never competing for the job because he and everyone else knew that sooner rather than later the team would be turned over to Eli Manning.

Green Bay was a different situation too because Brett Favre is at the end of his career and they needed to start thinking about the future. Bringing Rodgers in had nothing to do with Favre's poor performance. They wanted to draft JP Losman the year before but Buffalo traded up to draft him right above them.

There are some cases where the incumbent QB can be motivated to play better, but I don't think in any of those cases you have a QB who was already making #1 overall money.

You could make an argument that they should bring in a veteran QB to light the fire under Carr's feet, but I don't think you could make an argument that we should go out and spend $55 to 60 million to be that motivator.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 07:06 PM
You should probably omit New York too. Kerry Collins was the incumbent QB who was cut before the season started. Kurt Warner was never competing for the job because he and everyone else knew that sooner rather than later the team would be turned over to Eli Manning.

Green Bay was a different situation too because Brett Favre is at the end of his career and they needed to start thinking about the future. Bringing Rodgers in had nothing to do with Favre's poor performance. They wanted to draft JP Losman the year before but Buffalo traded up to draft him right above them.

There are some cases where the incumbent QB can be motivated to play better, but I don't think in any of those cases you have a QB who was already making #1 overall money.

You could make an argument that they should bring in a veteran QB to light the fire under Carr's feet, but I don't think you could make an argument that we should go out and spend $55 to 60 million to be that motivator.


can i make the arguement that carr ISNT GETTING IT DONE? Fair enough, the green bay situation is a little different. I do drink when i post. A lot. I dont know...i think kurt warner has a lot to do with the sucess of eli. I realize it wasnt long term competition, but eli did have to earn his time that rookie year. Im not worried about money, im worried about results. Either give carr motivation, or let someone else have a turn. No more free rides.

LongBignasty1
01-09-2006, 07:13 PM
The question is which is worth more and will statistically last longer, the potential hall of fame QB or a potential hall of fame RB. We all know the answer so get your V. Young jersey while you can.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 07:16 PM
But Eli didn't earn his time. The team was out of playoff contention so they in effect canned the season and turned the team over to him.

Sure, if you believe that Carr is the major problem and that coaching has nothing to do with it, then yes you could make that argument. I don't think that you have a very strong case because I don't think that he has been given a legitimate shot at success because of the atrocious line, poor play calling, and lack of weapons.

I don't think you could find a quarterback who would do considerably better given the circumstances. I've said this before and it's true, how can you expect someone to build a house if you don't give him blue prints, tools, or supplies?

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 07:18 PM
But Eli didn't earn his time. The team was out of playoff contention so they in effect canned the season and turned the team over to him.

Sure, if you believe that Carr is the major problem and that coaching has nothing to do with it, then yes you could make that argument. I don't think that you have a very strong case because I don't think that he has been given a legitimate shot at success because of the atrocious line, poor play calling, and lack of weapons.

I don't think you could find a quarterback who would do considerably better given the circumstances. I've said this before and it's true, how can you expect someone to build a house if you don't give him blue prints, tools, or supplies?


it doesnt matter. Carr didnt get a fair shot. Oh well. The point is, we dont have the luxury of waiting 6-8 years as a franchise to see if he eventually does pan out. I can gamble on young. I cant gamble on a 4 year failure

tulexan
01-09-2006, 07:23 PM
But we have the luxury of gambling on another unproven quarterback who has yet to take a single snap in the NFL?

And the more I think about it, in the Palmer/Kitna comparison you left out a major variable. Marvin Lewis being the new coach. Coaching is very important to on field performance as we have seen this year.

We have seen several examples of underachieving teams that did a 180 when the right coach was brought in. Hopefully the Texans will be the next.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 07:24 PM
But we have the luxury of gambling on another unproven quarterback who has yet to take a single snap in the NFL?

And the more I think about it, in the Palmer/Kitna comparison you left out a major variable. Marvin Lewis being the new coach. Coaching is very important to on field performance as we have seen this year.

We have seen several examples of underachieving teams that did a 180 when the right coach was brought in. Hopefully the Texans will be the next.


Marvin lewis is a big reason why cincy is better, but you cant deny the pro bowl performance palmer put up..... If we get a good coach, why cant he groom vince?

tulexan
01-09-2006, 07:32 PM
Why do we have to spend all of that money to groom Vince when we can spend a fraction of that on Carr?

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 08:23 PM
Why do we have to spend all of that money to groom Vince when we can spend a fraction of that on Carr?

Because Carr has had his 4 years of starting...and produced no results. You dont get to keep failing and keep your job in the real world. I failed at college....god knows they sure kicked me out after 4 semesters. They didnt care that i had mono for one semester, A serious eye injury in another, and 2 family deaths 3 days before finals....all they cared about was my lack of performance. Hold carr accountable.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 08:29 PM
How do we know that he just hasn't been in the right system?

real
01-09-2006, 08:32 PM
I don't think that is going to be the derteminig factor, I think it will be more of a ...We need to start over, We need to sell tickets and merchandise, We need a guy with leadership qualities, We need a guy with more upside...kinda thing. Nothing knocking Carr...

tulexan
01-09-2006, 09:01 PM
So you don't think that they will sell tickets or merchandise if Reggie Bush is on the team?

Am I mistaken or was there a Reggie Bowl?

LBC_Justin
01-09-2006, 09:09 PM
Drew Brees was a 3rd round pick, not 2nd. I thought we all agreed that the round you were drafted in was no indication of sucess...i.e. brady, etc.

I ommitted buffalo and san francisco. You know why? Because i was evaluating circumstances where there were TWO legitimate quarterbacking options. The race between alex smith and.....ken dorsey? has no bearing on my arguement. Nor does the kelly holcumb/j.p. losman debacle. Warner/josh mcknown isnt really legit either. Mcknown never had a shot at that spot.

I will grant you, detroit was a failure. I was being too generous. our situation is EXACTLY like san diego. Quarterback of the future has busted so far, high draft pick, quality running back (davis), and one star offensive weapon(gates=johnson). Drafting Phillip Rivers WORKED. Reggie bush is not a once in a lifetime talent. He is not guaranteed success. He is not a freak of nature. Nor, for the record, is vince young. Carr isnt getting it done. He either needs to be replaced or motivated. Either way, Vince is the pick to do that. Davis performs fine. Reggie bush can go waste away in tennessee

Drew Brees was a 2nd round pick. Look it up.

LBC_Justin
01-09-2006, 09:11 PM
can i make the arguement that carr ISNT GETTING IT DONE? Fair enough, the green bay situation is a little different. I do drink when i post. A lot. I dont know...i think kurt warner has a lot to do with the sucess of eli. I realize it wasnt long term competition, but eli did have to earn his time that rookie year. Im not worried about money, im worried about results. Either give carr motivation, or let someone else have a turn. No more free rides.If you really believe that then you don't understand how the NFL works. If you tie too much money in one position then you have no money to get good player for the other positions.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 09:19 PM
People have been saying that we shouldn't draft Bush because then we are no better than the Lions who were drafting more WR's high every year, but doesn't this argument also translate to Vince Young?

We drafted David Carr four years ago. We drafted Dave Ragone three years ago. We even drafted BJ Symons two years ago. Now we are going to draft Vince this year? So that will be four draft picks in five years on quarterbacks and three of them in the first day including two #1's overall.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 09:46 PM
Drew Brees was a 2nd round pick. Look it up.


I stand corrected sir, and i apologize

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 09:47 PM
People have been saying that we shouldn't draft Bush because then we are no better than the Lions who were drafting more WR's high every year, but doesn't this argument also translate to Vince Young?

We drafted David Carr four years ago. We drafted Dave Ragone three years ago. We even drafted BJ Symons two years ago. Now we are going to draft Vince this year? So that will be four draft picks in five years on quarterbacks and three of them in the first day including two #1's overall.


Well, this is the sort of thing that happens when you bust on your #1 pick. BJ is a throwaway pick, ragone was drafted as a backup, and carr is a bust. That leaves us with a backup qb, and a practice squad qb. Unfortunately we still lack a starter

tulexan
01-09-2006, 09:53 PM
Was Carr a bust last year when he threw for 3500 yards and rushed for close to 300?

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 10:03 PM
Was Carr a bust last year when he threw for 3500 yards and rushed for close to 300?

yep.....when he led his team to a 2-14 record.....yes.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 10:07 PM
so this time last year you thought Carr was a bust?

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 10:22 PM
so this time last year you thought Carr was a bust?

yessir, and my post history reflects that