PDA

View Full Version : Serious question for the Vince Young supporters...


texan279
01-09-2006, 01:00 PM
Right now I am neither for or against Bush or Young. But I have read some here that we have to draft Young, that he is so great, and that they would raise hell if our front office passes on him, and that Cass would be an ***** to pass on him. Well I have a question. Say we do draft Young because of the pressure from the fans/media with the 1st pick. What if he comes here and does nothing or turns out to be a bust, and Bush goes elsewhere and becomes an elite NFL RB. Then how would you feel about the organization? Just curious. And please don't say Young is a "sure thing" or that he "can't be a bust" because anything can happen.

MorKnolle
01-09-2006, 01:02 PM
I'd say McNair would look like an ***** for listening to the fans rather than judging the situation on his own (and of course with Cass and Reeves)

Vinny
01-09-2006, 01:04 PM
I'd say McNair would look like an ***** for listening to the fans rather than judging the situation on his own (and of course with Cass and Reeves)I'd say the opposite. Carr has had his half a decade of 168 yard games. When Vince Young becomes a pro bowl QB and we are stuck with 18-23 168 yards and 1TD, Bob McNair won't look so hot then. How many QB's have had 60 NFL Starts and never has thrown for more than a combined 2 TD's and over 201 yards in a single victory...not one time. I can name one.

Take away Pennington and the Jets were done...take away Carson Palmer and the Steelers win last night. Good QB play is important...more important than finding a back who can be had in any first day round.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 01:05 PM
shrugs. Drafting is a gamble. Our general manager doesnt have the best track record with draft picks. Personally, i dont think his opinion is worth more than the opinion of the fans right now.

Casserly thinks bush is the right decision. I think Vince young is the right decision. Say young becomes a bust, and bush goes on to be a super mega god star. That would make exactly ONE draft pick i was wrong about, as opposed to the 20 cass was wrong about. Maybe the law of averages works out for him this time, but casserly thinking bush is the right pick is enough to make me do something else with it.

Blake
01-09-2006, 02:21 PM
The only downside I can think of in Vince, is basically thowing away our next season, so he can learn.

I know its a little cliche now, but I think weve invested to much into Carr. I think he has the smarts, and skill to be a good QB. He just needs a new playbook, and coach.

Plus, RB's, and LB's are instant help. They can come in, and compete with the best.

Hollings is gone. Wells should be retained, but probably wont. So that leaves, Bush, Davis, and Morency.

I think Vince will be good. Hes a double threat guy. But I think Bush will be great. Especially when we get Kubiak to lead us.

AustinJB
01-09-2006, 02:23 PM
I suppose Vince Young's perfect season had nothing to do with Mack Brown's coaching staff or the elite team he was surrounded with. There is no denying that Vince Young was a vital contributor to the Horns' success, but it seems like you are inferring that he is the sole reason for it.

Vinny, why is football a team sport?

VY was the major reason why they won. "Greatest game performance ever by a quarterback..." Texas has had many great players and teams i.e. Ricky Williams, Chris Simms (debatable), Cedric Benson, Roy Williams, Derrick Johnson, etc. VY transcended all of that. Even Mack Brown has been quoted as saying that Vince changed his coaching style. He said that Vince has "it". Only a few players do. Obviously the defense and other teammates helped, but who put the team on their back and made every play when they needed a big play all season? That is why he is special.

Hervoyel
01-09-2006, 02:36 PM
Texas has had many great players and teams i.e. Ricky Williams, Chris Simms (debatable), Cedric Benson, Roy Williams, Derrick Johnson, etc. VY transcended all of that.

Wow man, you sure you named them all? Didn't maybe leave any great UT players out who maybe went there before, I dunno 8-10 years ago?

Vince transcended Cedric Benson did he? Well I take back all that mean stuff I said about Vince. He's the second coming and I don't know what I was thinking of.

:brickwall

Errant Hothy
01-09-2006, 02:50 PM
VY was the major reason why they won. "Greatest game performance ever by a quarterback..." Texas has had many great players and teams i.e. Ricky Williams, Chris Simms (debatable), Cedric Benson, Roy Williams, Derrick Johnson, etc. VY transcended all of that.

Dude! Do you know who you left off that list? James Street, Earl Campbell, Eric Metcalf (who was a STUD at UT), Bobby Lane, Applewhite, Tommy Ford, Saxton, etc and thats just teh players. There is no way, no mater what he ever does will VY surpase Royal in the heart and minds of the UT faithful.

Get off his jock, or take this man-love-fest to a UT board.:brickwall :brickwall :brickwall :brickwall

AustinJB
01-09-2006, 04:03 PM
Wow man, you sure you named them all? Didn't maybe leave any great UT players out who maybe went there before, I dunno 8-10 years ago?

Vince transcended Cedric Benson did he? Well I take back all that mean stuff I said about Vince. He's the second coming and I don't know what I was thinking of.

:brickwall


Missed the point.....Vince took the team to another level (obviously). They've been on the verge for years, he just got them over the hump. As far as the 8 years ago argument....well that's when Mack starting building the program...that's why I listed those players.

Hervoyel
01-09-2006, 04:29 PM
Didn't miss the point. Vince Young is a good QB and the Longhorns finally put it all together and won themselves a national championship. Good for them. Outstanding even. Vince Young didn't "transcend" anything though. He had a very good year. QB's have had much better years than his and ended the season with fewer wins, no Heisman consideration, and no projected top 5 spot in the draft waiting for them for reasons that were completely beyond their control. I was completely blind to his accomplishments this year. It's not as if no QB before him has done this and it's not as if it won't be done again. If he weren't burnt orange this would be a "Sean Taylor" like crush. Since he's a Longhorn it's worse and the man-love is extreme in here. It's like the Longhorns won the "Brokeback Mountain Bowl" or something.

exclude
01-09-2006, 04:33 PM
Herv, thats too funny man!!:yahoo: :redtowel:

texasguy346
01-09-2006, 04:35 PM
Since he's a Longhorn it's worse and the man-love is extreme in here. It's like the Longhorns won the "Brokeback Mountain Bowl" or something.

That's just plain wrong Herv. You're going to scar people with the visual images you're putting into their heads.
:bomb:

tulexan
01-09-2006, 04:36 PM
How did he transcend the team to the next level? They have been one of the top teams every year since before Vince came along. The only difference between this year and the last 4 years was that Oklahoma was rebuilding their team.

Fiddy
01-09-2006, 04:51 PM
That's weird ... against Minnesota, he had 3 passing TDs and 372 yards, and our defense gives up 34 points and we lose. I suppose that is DC's fault too? Yeah, he got all those after he spotted Minny a 28-0 lead into half and then got smart and instead of chucking short dump downs to Davis starting throwing to AJ down the field. So he did throw for 372, but that's because the situtation allowed him, too. The Minny defense didnt get bad over the halftime, they were bad before, it was just Carr was complacent about dumping down and it took him an entire half to get smart about it...

I suppose Vince Young's perfect season had nothing to do with Mack Brown's coaching staff or the elite team he was surrounded with. There is no denying that Vince Young was a vital contributor to the Horns' success, but it seems like you are inferring that he is the sole reason for it. Arent you the one that said the Horns were gonna get steamrolled by the Trojans if I remember correctly in another VY thread a while back??? Now they are elite...I love it!!! lol. If you remember, over the summer when Mack Brown got his 10 year, a lot of people questioned it and said "he couldnt win the big game." Now he has won it and the whole preception about him has changed. If you take VY off the Longhorns, they probably don't win 10 games and they arent this elite team. He wasnt the sole reason for the success, but VY took a good team to elite team status.

. . .why is football a team sport? Football is a team sport, but to think one great player cant make a difference is ridiculous. You take Manning off Indy and you have a good team, not a great one. You take Alexander off the Seahawks and they wont be in the playoffs. You take Vick off the Falcons and the team is a cellar dwellar. Football is a team sport but a great player makes a difference...hense the reason they are great.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 04:56 PM
Yeah, he got all those after he spotted Minny a 28-0 lead into half and then got smart and instead of chucking short dump downs to Davis starting throwing to AJ down the field. So he did throw for 372, but that's because the situtation allowed him, too. The Minny defense didnt get bad over the halftime, they were bad before, it was just Carr was complacent about dumping down and it took him an entire half to get smart about it...


But Carr doesn't call the plays. He runs what is called.

Fiddy
01-09-2006, 04:59 PM
But Carr doesn't call the plays. He runs what is called. The plays didnt call for him to dump down to Davis almost every pass play the first half. It took him an entire half to figure out to throw it to AJ. I remember that game because it helped my arguement that the offense is better when Davis doesnt play a big role. Carr had said many times till that game and pass that game that the coaches do not tell him to dump down the ball, he does it himself. I think we only got one or two first downs that first half so Carr put the defenses back against the wall...

Hervoyel
01-09-2006, 04:59 PM
But Carr doesn't call the plays. He runs what is called.


Shhhhhhh, you're spoiling the carefully constructed illusion that all of our problems are rooted in the the poor play of David Carr. You're going to mess it up and then we won't sign Vince!

Vinny
01-09-2006, 05:01 PM
Shhhhhhh, you're spoiling the carefully constructed illusion that all of our problems are rooted in the the poor play of David Carr. You're going to mess it up and then we won't sign Vince!Carr doesn't get hit any more or less than Tom Brady.

According to Stats Inc.:

Quarterback "Kerry Collins" has been knocked down an NFL-high 136 times, an average of 11.3 a game. "Aaron Brooks" (132) is second followed by "Eli Manning" (129), "David Carr "(117) and "Tom Brady" (111).

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2005_4024169

Fiddy
01-09-2006, 05:29 PM
Damn it, Fiddy, you had to bring up my foiled prediction!

Yes, I confess: I said USC would kill Texas, and they did not. You didnt think I'd forget, did ya??? lol... :D

DC didn't "let" Minnesota score anything. 28-0 was Fangio and the defense. Playcalling is the coaches, and while DC uses the dumpoff a lot, for that matter I don't see VY throw a lot of long balls. When the offense goes 3 and out and gives the Vikings offense, with Moss, the ball in good field position, you're gonna give up points. The offense puts a couple of first downs together and backs up the Vikings, they dont score 28, or was it 21, in the first half. Point in case the second half. Carr decides to stop dumping it down, he decides because he has said the he chooses when to dump down, the offense moves the ball, scores, doesnt allow the Vikings offense to get good field position, and we hold them to 1 TD in the 2nd half. DC didnt let him, but played a reason in why they did.

Football is a team sport, and great players make a difference. So does coaching and supporting cast.

To cite your example, the Colts are a great team with Manning and would be a good team without him, but w/o Edg and Harrison and supporters Wayne and Stokeley and a great O-line and a much improved defense, they would be a decent team at best.

Is there is anyone on this board who would try to state VY as being of the same caliber as Manning? Please do not even try to say that.

As for Vick and the Falcons, so what? They are not in the playoffs, and I don't care if Vick is going to the Pro Bowl or they have made it in times past. Vick is a one-trick pony at this point who had better come up with another trick or two. Besides, if you think Vick is great ... goes to show that yet again, one man is not going to get er done. I wont even say that VY is on Manning's level, I'm just stating that one player can and will make the biggest difference if he is great. And I think VY has a great chance to be great.

I guess the argument is, where is the weakness on this team? I and others contend that it is DC's coaching, above all else, as well as the overall weakness of his supporting cast, that have led to much of his troubles. It seems that you and others say that Carr and Carr alone is the issue.

Dealing the #1 would give us, assuming Cass uses it right, a lot of leeway in rebuilding this team and bolstering that supporting cast. That is all. I dont think Carr alone is the problem, there are other problems but I think Carr is probably the biggest. Yes, the coaching isnt the greatest but Carr is making mistakes that some rookies dont make, one of the most glaring is his pocket presence

Fiddy, I don't mind your POV, because even though I don't agree with you, you are actually employing football logic in stating your case. And I will continue to be a Texans fan should the unthinkable happen, and we ditch Carr and get Young. Likewise for me...

Hervoyel
01-09-2006, 05:30 PM
Carr doesn't get hit any more or less than Tom Brady.

According to Stats Inc.:

Quarterback "Kerry Collins" has been knocked down an NFL-high 136 times, an average of 11.3 a game. "Aaron Brooks" (132) is second followed by "Eli Manning" (129), "David Carr "(117) and "Tom Brady" (111).

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2005_4024169

That stat takes into account time to throw, quality of the coaching and the very offense he's being asked to run, number of skill position players who are capable of making the play if he even does get the ball to them, and number of times your HC will ask you to do something completely retarded like sit on a 10 point lead at the half? I didn't notice that, my bad.

Forgive me Vinny but the number of times Carr gets hit per game and how it compares to how many times Tom Brady gets hit is, by itself doesn't really tell the entire story.

dtran04
01-09-2006, 05:47 PM
I hope those aren't the same "hits" that Tedy Bruschi gets. LOL. Bruschi would have 600. :)

Vinny
01-09-2006, 05:50 PM
That stat takes into account time to throw, quality of the coaching and the very offense he's being asked to run, number of skill position players who are capable of making the play if he even does get the ball to them, and number of times your HC will ask you to do something completely retarded like sit on a 10 point lead at the half? I didn't notice that, my bad.

Forgive me Vinny but the number of times Carr gets hit per game and how it compares to how many times Tom Brady gets hit is, by itself doesn't really tell the entire story.If Carr gets hit 117 times and brady gets hit 111 times...its just a variance of 6 when you boil down all the excuses. It's not like Carr got hit any more than Brady.

disaacks3
01-09-2006, 06:01 PM
If Carr gets hit 117 times and brady gets hit 111 times...its just a variance of 6 when you boil down all the excuses. It's not like Carr got hit any more than Brady. Fine then - Do we have a stat on the number of Times Carr had to "run for his life" w/o being knocked down to compare against the others listed? I don't see Tom running for his life that often, especially against a 3-4 man rush.

Vinny
01-09-2006, 06:09 PM
Fine then - Do we have a stat on the number of Times Carr had to "run for his life" w/o being knocked down to compare against the others listed? I don't see Tom running for his life that often, especially against a 3-4 man rush.I donno but I watch a ton of football and getting hit is getting hit. The argument that he was hit more than anyone else is just false.

TheOgre
01-09-2006, 06:23 PM
Carr had 423 pass attempts to Brady's 530.

http://sports-att.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/stats?team=hou

http://sports-att.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/stats?team=nwe


Carr was definitely hit more per attempt.

Vinny
01-09-2006, 06:25 PM
Carr had 423 pass attempts to Brady's 530.

http://sports-att.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/stats?team=hou

http://sports-att.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/stats?team=nwe


Carr was definitely hit more per attempt.If you can't convert a 3rd down you won't get those extra attempts....unlike baseball there is no equal possession rule. How many times did we see Carr with a 3rd and 4 and throw a pass at the turf without pressure? Quite a bit. I have all the games taped and he was awful most of the year. Still...it's the same amount of hits per game...it's not like he was hit much more than anyone else per game.

thunderkyss
01-09-2006, 06:28 PM
The only downside I can think of in Vince, is basically thowing away our next season, so he can learn.

I know its a little cliche now, but I think weve invested to much into Carr. I think he has the smarts, and skill to be a good QB. He just needs a new playbook, and coach.

Plus, RB's, and LB's are instant help. They can come in, and compete with the best.

Hollings is gone. Wells should be retained, but probably wont. So that leaves, Bush, Davis, and Morency.

I think Vince will be good. Hes a double threat guy. But I think Bush will be great. Especially when we get Kubiak to lead us.

We're 2-14..... How can you not think we need to start over anyway??

thunderkyss
01-09-2006, 06:34 PM
Right now I am neither for or against Bush or Young. But I have read some here that we have to draft Young, that he is so great, and that they would raise hell if our front office passes on him, and that Cass would be an ***** to pass on him. Well I have a question. Say we do draft Young because of the pressure from the fans/media with the 1st pick. What if he comes here and does nothing or turns out to be a bust, and Bush goes elsewhere and becomes an elite NFL RB. Then how would you feel about the organization? Just curious. And please don't say Young is a "sure thing" or that he "can't be a bust" because anything can happen.


If young is a Bust, and Bush blows it up, Cassely will get a pass. From most of us. OF course the guys who don't want him, won't give him the pass. McNair, won't give him a pass. If Young Blossoms, and Reggie does his thing, as long as DD's game improves(which I think it will with Vince in the backfield) then we'll be ok.......... CC will be OK. If DD goes down, and Wells does his thing, we'll all be good. If Young's a bust, and Reggie's a Bust, DD will still get his 1000, and we'll blame the Offensive Line.

Blake
01-09-2006, 06:46 PM
We're 2-14..... How can you not think we need to start over anyway??

I am not the only one who thinks we are better than our record indicates.

I firmly believe that if capers got fired before the end of the season, we would have 2-3 more wins.

Capers doesnt like to win in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd quarters. "He keeps it close" by then we are normally behind playing catch up.

We are better than 2-14.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 06:47 PM
Trust me, if Young is a bust and Bush blows up, Casserly will not get a pass. Especially if Carr goes somewhere else and is successful. People will bash Young just like they bashed Carr if he isn't successful.

Huge
01-09-2006, 07:09 PM
How did he transcend the team to the next level? They have been one of the top teams every year since before Vince came along. The only difference between this year and the last 4 years was that Oklahoma was rebuilding their team.
Yeah, because anytime during the past 4 years, Texas would've beaten Ohio State in Columbus and USC in what amounted to their back yard. :rolleyes:

If you didn't notice the difference between this Texas team and one from year's past, you're absolutely clueless about college football.

To the original question: I'm sure the fan base would be pretty ticked off.

Now put the shoe on the other foot: Imagine the Texans draft Bush and hope Carr pans out but both go on to be busts while Vince excels with the former Houston team. Imagine the fall-out over that. McNair lets hometown high school, state-wide college legend walk on top of letting him go to the one team everybody wouldn't want to see him on? I think I'd take my chances with Vince. At least they'd be given the hometown talent the opportunity.

Or if he wanted to play it safe (smart), trade down.

TheOgre
01-09-2006, 07:09 PM
There is no question that Carr looks shell-shocked back there. I'm just wondering if a lot of that had to do with a combination of things:

1. A horrible pass-blocking line.
2. Inconsistent play from the receivers
3. DD's inability to pick up pass blockers effectively
4. Lack of a true #2 receiver (double teams on AJ 24-7)
5. The worst starting TE in the league
6. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY - an offensive scheme that a 4 year old with a crayon could draw up.

Carr has to take on some of the blame for this, but the coaches, GM, and owner should take a big part of it for not giving him any chance of success. I want to see him in a new system with improved personnel. If he still looks lost after this season, then we can go after someone in the 2007 draft or FA.