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Grid
01-09-2006, 12:56 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs05/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2277589

Interesting article on the myths and misconceptions about running QBs

MorKnolle
01-09-2006, 02:24 PM
This is a pretty interesting article, not necessarily saying that running QBs can't win in the playoffs, but it is interesting to note the vast statistics that show that staying in the pocket and being a more pure passer tends to lead to a more successful team.

Chaft
01-09-2006, 02:44 PM
There's one indisputable fact about NFL defenses. There are some badasses out there who can hit hard. Most defenders relish a chance to lay a big hit on the QB.

"It helps some to be able to run," said Pittsburgh quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, whose three touchdowns on the ground in 2005 lead all playoff quarterbacks. "But traditionally, you don't get much (running) outside the pocket in the playoffs. It's a time when you try to play to your strengths. For most quarterbacks, running isn't a strong point, is it?"

I watched the Pit/Cin game, and it was Ben's long bomb throw into the endzone that broke the game open.

AustinJB
01-09-2006, 02:50 PM
There's one indisputable fact about NFL defenses. There are some badasses out there who can hit hard. Most defenders relish a chance to lay a big hit on the QB.

"It helps some to be able to run," said Pittsburgh quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, whose three touchdowns on the ground in 2005 lead all playoff quarterbacks. "But traditionally, you don't get much (running) outside the pocket in the playoffs. It's a time when you try to play to your strengths. For most quarterbacks, running isn't a strong point, is it?"

I watched the Pit/Cin game, and it was Ben's long bomb throw into the endzone that broke the game open.

I thought it was the trick-play that got SPEED around the edge, thrown back to Ben (b/c he's not fast enough to do it himself), then thrown to the endzone.

Huge
01-09-2006, 07:45 PM
Michael Vick - 2 playoff appearances in 4 years
Donovan McNabb - 5 playoff appearances in 6 years
Daunte Culpepper - 2 playoff appearances in 6 years
Steve McNair - 4 playoff appearances in 9 years

Call me crazy, but that's a pretty good percentage of making the playoffs. I think Pastabelly pointing towards this season as evidence (when players like McNabb and Culpepper were out with injuries and McNair is at the end of his career) is a bit of a reach.

As far as winning in the playoffs, who's to say it's simply because they (running QB's) have been outnumbered? If I toss 400 balls and 5 blocks into the air, what are the chances I'm going to catch a block on the way down? Is that to say I can't catch a block?

Somebody did an article comparing the passing stats of "running QBs" vs "pocket QBs" a few years ago. There wasn't much difference in those stats and in many cases the running QB's were throwing the ball better.

Teams win in the playoffs/Super Bowls. If it's all about the pocket passers, I'm sure one of the best ever (Marino) would've probably won one during his career.

MorKnolle
01-09-2006, 10:55 PM
The article was not saying that running QBs can't win in the playoffs, it was merely pointing out that statistically they usually are not among the playoff winners and attempts to examine possible reasons why they are not. Of course their team, coaches, etc. all impact things, but at the same time there are other factors involved from the QB himself (maybe pocket passers are fresher at the end of the year, they don't usually take as many hard hits, in general they are better at throwing the ball, maybe because they have to concentrate on it more, as it is their primary means of success, than their running abilities). Once again, it is just another article examining past successes that don't necessarily predict the future, and it is one man's opinion and it is done relatively objectively without saying that it must mean that running QBs can't succeed or something of that sort, so don't read into it too much.

Grid
01-09-2006, 11:16 PM
it also points out that when you are playing a team of equal talent... basicly, a tough playoff game, or the superbowl.. you get pretty much all of your big games by throwing the ball down field. A pocket QB excels at that.. while running QBs are usually only average or slightly above average at it.

Long-Spurs-Texan
01-10-2006, 09:15 AM
I watched the Pit/Cin game, and it was Ben's long bomb throw into the endzone that broke the game open.

I kinda thought Palmers knee getting wrecked on the second snap broke it open. It killed the team, and the stadium. I feel bad for the Nati.

HJam72
01-10-2006, 09:52 AM
Here's what I got out of it:

The best teams have the fastest defenders. You can get to the play-offs running as a QB, but, when you get there, you better be able to do everything else, because you're not gonna run unless you want to have your helmet removed for a minimal gain.

McNair was not a runner by the time he became successfull. He moved around in the pocket and avoided tackles, but he did not run. His success was a result of his arm. You might think I'm attacking Young here, but I think he could develop that way. He certainly has the size and quickness to move around before throwing the ball. It's his arm that I have a very slight concern about. I hear that he doesn't have a strong arm at all and then I hear that he had the best passing percentage in college this year. I guess I'm kind of baffled. One thing I do know: Carr has a VERY strong arm and he knows how to use it. That's his greatest asset, in fact.

Frills
01-10-2006, 10:16 AM
Michael Vick - 2 playoff appearances in 4 years
Donovan McNabb - 5 playoff appearances in 6 years
Daunte Culpepper - 2 playoff appearances in 6 years
Steve McNair - 4 playoff appearances in 9 years


Calling McNair a running QB is a joke...he never has been a scrambler

MorKnolle
01-10-2006, 10:57 AM
Here's what I got out of it:

The best teams have the fastest defenders. You can get to the play-offs running as a QB, but, when you get there, you better be able to do everything else, because you're not gonna run unless you want to have your helmet removed for a minimal gain.

McNair was not a runner by the time he became successfull. He moved around in the pocket and avoided tackles, but he did not run. His success was a result of his arm. You might think I'm attacking Young here, but I think he could develop that way. He certainly has the size and quickness to move around before throwing the ball. It's his arm that I have a very slight concern about. I hear that he doesn't have a strong arm at all and then I hear that he had the best passing percentage in college this year. I guess I'm kind of baffled. One thing I do know: Carr has a VERY strong arm and he knows how to use it. That's his greatest asset, in fact.

Indeed it takes an allround QB to be successful in the NFL playoffs, not to mention an allround good team. Vince Young could certainly develop into a Steve McNair, but that is years off, he really needs to work on his throwing motion and everything involved with passing the ball. He has a decent handle on reading defenses for a college player, but he will need to improve that. His arm strength is not overly good and he throws it side-armed which will need to be somewhat corrected. He did not have the best passing percentage in college, his QB rating was 3rd by NCAA rating system (he was 6th out of just the top 10 by NFL rating system), and his completion percentage was somewhere between 10th-14th, I don't remember exactly. He is quite accurate up to about 20, maybe 25 yards down field but beyond that he is not great and his throwing motion leads him to loft the ball a lot on longer passes which will be trouble in the NFL. I'm not saying Vince won't be good or can't be good, I think he'll be a very good NFL QB, but I don't think he is at all the best choice for this team. I'm in favor of trading down and if we can't get a good trade offer then we take Bush at #1 and add him to our offense.

Calling McNair a running QB is a joke...he never has been a scrambler

As for this, McNair was definitely a scrambler throughout his entire career and I would consider him a running QB towards the start of his career. As for his rushing stats compared to the Titans/Oilers record:

1995: 38 rushing yards in 4 games, 7-9 (Houston Oilers)
1996: 169 rushing yards in 9 games, 8-8 (Houston Oilers)
1997: 674 rushing yards in 16 games, 8-8
1998: 559 rushing yards in 16 games, 8-8
1999: 337 rushing yards in 11 games, 13-3 and Super Bowl participants
2000: 403 rushing yards in 16 games, 13-3
2001: 414 rushing yards in 15 games, 7-9
2002: 440 rushing yards in 16 games, 11-5
2003: 138 rushing yards in 14 games, 12-4
2004: 128 rushing yards in 8 games, 5-11
2005: 139 rushing yards in 14 games, 4-12

He had single-season rushing stats of 674 yards, 559 yards, 337 yards, 403, yards, 414 yards, and 440 yards from 1997-2002, then he started getting older, slower, and injured more so he stopped running as much. I would definitely consider those numbers a running QB, and he's still rushed for over 120 yards each of the last three years which is more than most QBs do in a single season, so I still consider him a scrambling QB that will move around to buy time and maybe take off running for a short distance if he has to.