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BigWig
01-09-2006, 10:09 AM
To all you Bush vs. Young voters, make sure you read AJ's "voice of the fan".
Good job and thanks for keeping it real AJ!

Vinny
01-09-2006, 10:14 AM
Voice of the Fan
By Alan J. Burge
Special to HoustonTexans.com (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/news_detail.php?PRKey=2338)

EDITOR'S NOTE: Texans fan Alan J. Burge continues to write his "Voice of the Fan" column for HoustonTexans.com. His latest installment is below. Alan's views do not necessarily reflect the views of the organization.

Seize the Day

As if there havenít been enough wildfires in this neck of the woods lately.
Texans fans found themselves being sucked into the perfect NFL off-season storm on Saturday when ESPN reported the Texans would select Reggie Bush with the number one pick in the 2006 NFL draft, even if Vince Young also entered the draft. On Sunday, Young declared his intent to enter the draft and Bush will soon follow.

Wasnít it just last week that we were arguing about the ethics of losing to the 49ers so the Texans could select Bush with the first pick in the NFL Draft? Didnít life seem so much simpler then?

Then came the Rose Bowl.

But itís just one game, you say.

Well, no, it really wasn't.

Before the Rose Bowl, and even though he dominated at the NCAA Division I level for two seasons, Vince had yet to drive home the fact that he really was the best player in college football. He knew that he was the best. His teammates knew it. Some of his fans knew it. But on that Wednesday night in Pasadena, Vince made sure that millions more would know it. Chief Osceola couldn't have driven the point home any better.

Where were all the Vince supporters and all this debate before the Rose Bowl? Well, there really wasnít much debate because as recently as five days ago the widespread belief was that Vince was going to remain in the comfort of the 40 acres, like all good Longhorns, instead of forging ahead into the vast NFL wilderness.

National championships and signature games by great players on the big stage have a way of changing perspectives even among those who rarely if ever overreact.

So let the debates begin. Bush or Young? Young or Carr?

Bush is a great talent but Young is a great talent and even greater leader. In three months, the Texans will have an opportunity to select a quarterback who is a game changer, a rare athlete with outstanding leadership skills who will win at the next level. It's in his makeup. The fact that he's a local makes it even more intriguing - and more troublesome if we lose him, especially to a division rival. Especially that division rival.

The scenario painted in the ESPN reports had Bush going to the Texans, Leinart to the Saints, and Vince Young to the Titans. Hmmm.

Allow me to go on record and say that the nightmare scenario of losing Vince Young to Tennessee, or anyone else for that matter, could be the biggest sports blunder in the history of this city. Furthermore, fans would never forgive this franchise for letting such a great player - arguably the best football player ever to come out of Houston, and one of the two best to come out of the University of Texas Ė fall into the hands of Bud Adams.

If Vince ends up in Tennessee and does well - and there's no reason to believe he won't do very well - there will be more Titans fans in Houston (and Austin) than Texans fans in Houston. Why not just turn the city over to Cowboys and Titans fans while you're at it?

But itís all about winning, right? Who cares about where the player is from or where he went to school as long as the team wins?

Itís true that winning will keep the fans happy more than a roster full of locals. Itís also true that Vince Young is a winner.

This isnít about drafting the local kid who did well or appeasing the orange blood masses. This is about an opportunity to draft one of the greatest college football players in recent memory, and make him a member of the Houston Texans. The fact that Houston is his hometown is secondary but the fact that fans would be fighting over tickets is music to the ears of a stressed-out marketing department.

Bush has been showered with his own set of accolades by being mentioned in the same sentence with Gale Sayers and Barry Sanders. But despite the Bush allure, Vince has risen to the top of this debate by improving his quarterback skills by orders of magnitude over the last two years, and by demonstrating unquestioned leadership ability.

To pass on Vince in this draft would be a huge mistake - one that could set this franchise back another lifecycle. The chance that Young could come back to torment us twice a year for the next 10 years would be salt in the wound.

But wouldnít Bush in a Tennessee uniform have the same effect from a competition standpoint?

Maybe, but ask yourself this question: Would the Texans be better off with Reggie Bush touching the ball 15 times per game with David Carr at quarterback, or with Vince touching it 60 times a game Ė granted one-third of those would be handoffs to Domanick Davis Ė but with the added threat of run or pass to speedy wide receivers Andre Johnson and Jerome Mathis, or maybe even to a (gasp) tight end?

While a lineup of Carr, Johnson, Mathis, Bush and Davis on the field at the same time sounds intriguing, a lineup of Vince, Johnson, Mathis, Davis, and a new offensive lineman with the second pick in the draft also sounds very intriguing Ė along with some defensive help of course.

The difference maker is that Vince's superior vision and escapability from the pocket will totally change the way defenses attack the Texans quarterback. It will also take pressure off a much-maligned offensive line. No longer will pass rushers be able to simply squeeze to a point five yards deep in the pocket with their rush packages. The Texans' offensive line would have to become more agile with a quarterback like Young but that is certainly part of the blueprint already, regardless of who plays quarterback in the future.

Vince won't be able to run as much in the pros as he did in college but just the threat changes everything, just like it did for Steve McNair and Steve Young. I can see Vince on a very similar track as Steve McNair in the pros. In his early years, Young can take advantage of his running skills while he continues to develop his passing game.

Where will we be in three years with David Carr? No one knows, but we know where weíve been for the last four. While Carr has a leg up on any rookie in terms of NFL experience, most of his experience is bad so he has a bit of a hole to climb out of himself before he becomes comfortable in the new Texans offense. Excuse me for feeling this way but if I have to wait any more than I already have for a quarterback to develop, then Iíd rather watch Vince while I wait this time around.

Where does this leave Carr?

Early reports out of Reliant Park had the Texans giving Carr an $8 million option bonus to execute the final three years of his multi-million dollar contract. While it would be nice to see what Carr could do in a system designed by say, Gary Kubiak, itís also quite evident that many fans are losing patience with Carr, who would have to show marked improvement almost immediately in a new system to satisfy a restless fan base.

Fair or not, Texans fans wonít have a lot of patience waiting for a quarterback in his fifth NFL season to finally reach his potential as he becomes acclimated to a new offense. While Carr has shown a few spurts and glimmers of good play here and there over the past four seasons, not all of the offensive woes can be blamed on poor coaching or lack of talent on the offensive line.

The best options for Carr may be to offer him the two-year option, which reduces the signing bonus to $5 million instead of the $8 million that the three-year option would require. A two-year deal would allow Vince to come in and understudy for a year and even though it would be uncomfortable for Carr, who has never had legitimate competition, it worked in San Diego with Drew Brees and Phillip Rivers.

The two-year deal could set up trade opportunities as would a one-year transition tag and contract which would pay Carr the average of the top 10 quarterbacks in the NFL (or 120 percent of his last yearís salary, whichever is greater). Outright release is another option but that doesnít seem to be the best option from a business or football perspective.

If I was on the Texans head coaching interview team, I would start off the interview with this question:

Tell us about your offensive philosophy and what the playbook would look like with a) David Carr at quarterback and b) Vince Young at quarterback. The floor is yours, you have one hour.

Carpe diem, Mr. McNair.

You can email Alan Burge at: aj_texans@yahoo.com

Texans_Chick
01-09-2006, 10:31 AM
Well thought out and reasoned.

That is the article that Richard Justice shoulda wrote in support for drafting VY. Both Lopez and Justice's articles on Draft Bush v. Draft Young were kinda weak. Imagine that.

I must leave now. I am fixing to go get Draft VY shirts printed. For my own personal attire.

Maybe I should make it "Draft Vince" so that more of the general public will understand what my shirt means. lol.

gwallaia
01-09-2006, 10:31 AM
As usual, a well thought and well presented commentary from aj.

Double Barrel
01-09-2006, 10:54 AM
Good job, aj. One of the best, well though out takes on reasons to take Young. I'm impressed, and it is definitely a valid case to be made.

There are so many emotions to ride right now: Young is from H-town, represents the state school, and could very well be one of the great QBs over time (already is in terms of his college legend).

Add into the mix that he could end up with one of our most hated rivals, and it makes your blood boil. Seeing Young develop into a superstar, and then have to face him twice a year, just creates more turmoil in the brain.

Young has got "it". That intangible quality of leadership and championship drive. I have to wonder if it would mean all that more to him to represent his hometown. I'd venture a guess that it would mean a lot, and he would rise to the challenge.

The key is Carr. Is he worth $8 million? Will a new offensive scheme and [hopefully] an upgraded o-line make him better? Can a new approach make him stop certain troublesome tendencies that he hasn't been able to shake since college?

Truly the decision is not between Bush or Young. The crux of the matter is do we stick with Carr, or do we go ahead and rebuild with a rookie QB and hope Young can live up to his hype.

It's a tough decision, probably the hardest this franchise has had to make. And I'm glad I don't have to make it!

thunderkyss
01-09-2006, 11:00 AM
Exactly what I've been trying to say.

SBTexans08
01-09-2006, 11:06 AM
Great article....I still think Young is not what the Texans need though.

Hervoyel
01-09-2006, 11:08 AM
Since the Rose Bowl the content and tone of this board sickens me.

Htown34s
01-09-2006, 11:09 AM
I think AJ tapped into my brain when he wrote this article; these are the same points I've been trying to make.

One more, I think McNair is worried that the fans won't like waiting another few years while watching a young QB develop. But the truth is, Carr still needs to develop, and I think what fans are really sick of is waiting to see some improvement from David because in the back of their minds they have some thoughts the he never will. Watching VY develop would actually make fans more patient IMO.

Also, it could wreck this franchise if the only sold out game at Reliant every year would be the game against Tennessee...with half of the stadium wearing Titans gear while cheering for Vince.

Khari
01-09-2006, 11:10 AM
Since the Rose Bowl the content and tone of this board sickens me.

me too

Texan Asylum
01-09-2006, 11:11 AM
Being a Carr fan, it's a painfull read. Being a Texan fan, it's a very thought provoking read. Everything AJ's written, IMO, has been pretty much dead on. I'm open to all avenues that'll improve this team. By the way, is AJ of "Voice of the Fan" the same AJ that posts on this board?

chuckm
01-09-2006, 11:13 AM
it didn't really start bothering me until I saw several of the "always reasonable, articulate, let's think this thing through people, relax it's not so bad" posters start going south ...

TEXANS84
01-09-2006, 11:13 AM
Thats probably the best "Voice of the Fan" writeups I've seen.

Great work aj, I couldn't agree with you more.

thunderkyss
01-09-2006, 11:22 AM
The key is Carr. Is he worth $8 million? Will a new offensive scheme and [hopefully] an upgraded o-line make him better? Can a new approach make him stop certain troublesome tendencies that he hasn't been able to shake since college?



My take on this, is that yeah, Young's success in the NFL isn't Gauranteed, but to this point we should all know Carr's isn't either. Oh his name will go down in the history books, but as the most sacked QB of all time. I like Carr, I really do. If there was a thread on this board knocking Carr, if I were around, I'd be one of the guys defineding him, and bashing the O-Line, with statements like "if you don't give hime time...." I'm also one of those guys who don't go for changing out the QB for the sake of changing out the QB. Teams need stability, and consistency. That starts at QB, on the field.

Besides, I don't want to replace Carr, I want to replace Tony Banks...... what's the point of hanging on to him?? We need a young guy back their now that Carr has 4 years under his belt. We need a Garard, a Fitzpatrick, a Jamie Martin.... a Vince Young.

Htown34s
01-09-2006, 11:23 AM
BTW Texan Asylum, love the avatar. I remember seeing that game as a kid (playoff game I think?).

Another thing to point out for the Bush lovers is that we will have $60 million wrapped up in 2 RB's, which could be very crippling to a team also. RB's come around all the time. Did anyone see Deshaun Foster yesterday? That rookie RB down in Tampa Bay isn't bad either. Every team has a good RB, but only half have a decent QB. Scambling QB's usually fare better in the NFL than RB's who rely on hitting the outside edge.

SBTexans08
01-09-2006, 11:58 AM
This is simply ridiculous. He has all day to throw and run against a USC zone defense not even ranked top 25 in the nation, and everyone in this city can't stop talking about his marvelous pocket presence and reads.



But...he beat a top ranked Ohio St. defense, in story book ending fashion early in the season as well. He passed more in that game too.....DIDN'T run ofr 200 yards either in order to win. So to say that he only won because of that porous USC defense is pretty null when in retrospect...you consider the Ohio St. and Virginia Tech games. In these games....the only thing that screams out is.....Vince Young is a WINNER!!

Grid
01-09-2006, 12:06 PM
im not seeing it. Hes a winner? yah..he won games in college.. he isnt the first. He is no more a sure thing than Bush or Lienart.. and his abilities as a rushing QB are not a bonus in my book. Rushing QBs dont win superbowls.

Nicely written article..but i disagree on just about everything.

bckey
01-09-2006, 12:06 PM
I am astounded, and I have run out of words for it.

Good :)

Vinny
01-09-2006, 12:09 PM
I did not see anything but highlights from either of those two games, so forgive me if I am understating his abilities.

Either way, the point is that we do not draft a player based on where he is from.

Put a sock in it, already. If we draft Vince, it will be because management feels he is the best player for this franchise, in terms of his ability to lead our team to wins. Not because his grandma and all the Longhorns around here can come to all the games.

I have made no small secret of the fact that I believe he is not the best player for this franchise, but if we are going to talk about drafting him, let's do it on the basis of his skills: not what high school he went to.Where do you get off telling anyone to put a sock in anything when you admit you haven't watched Young's past games and you combine that with saying that he isnt that good?

Grid
01-09-2006, 12:10 PM
an article on rushing QBs.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs05/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2277589

more reason to stick with Carr imo.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 12:12 PM
an article on rushing QBs.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs05/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2277589

more reason to stick with Carr imo.


seems to be a case for leinart to me.....didnt carr have like the 3rd most rushing yards for a qb in the league? Carr is a rushing QB, he just hasnt done anything in 4 years of nfl experience. Vince Young could be better. Nobody knows. Its like a 4 month MYSTERY!

groutfulone
01-09-2006, 12:13 PM
All of you people who don't believe in Young's ability must not have watched him very much.

The reason USC's defense was wide open was because of Young. Just like every other D they faced. Example: 4th down, end of game, everyone in the world knows that VY will run right, but USC can't clamp down on him because if they bite, he is smart enough and accurate enough to nail one of his receivers. That is why he is dangerous. And he will be just as dangerous in the NFL in the same way Steve Young and John Elway froze up defenders when outside the pocket.

And to the real haters who are sickened by all the hype since the Rose Bowl: it wasn't here before because there was very little evidence that VY was coming out. Now that he is everything has changed.

Grid
01-09-2006, 12:17 PM
I see what you are saying Swtbound.. but Carr isnt really a rushing QB.. he is comparable to Elway in that he can rush, but doesnt depend on it.

groutfulone
01-09-2006, 12:19 PM
an article on rushing QBs.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs05/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2277589

more reason to stick with Carr imo.

With 3000+ yds passing and and a 66.3% completion rate (includes the rose bowl) VY is not a rushing QB.

He is a QB.

The thing that this writer doesn't understand and the same thing that most naysayers don't understand is this:

Vince Young is the culmination of the supposed athletic quarterback revoltion. He is what it has been building up to. Some of us realized it three years ago when he began playing at Texas and now the College world realizes it. The NFL will learn also. I only hope that it is the Texans teaching them.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 12:20 PM
I see what you are saying Swtbound.. but Carr isnt really a rushing QB.. he is comparable to Elway in that he can rush, but doesnt depend on it.


fair enough. I just thought i would try to bring a sane, rational, non screaming response to this board...you know, mix it up a little! Just cause i have a vince young avatar doesnt mean im foaming orange at the mouth. I bleed battle red just like anyone else. I've said it before, i'll say it again. If we draft Snarfee McGee with the #1 pick, heck i'll go out and buy his jersey too. Im a fan of the texans, im a fan of vince young, and if the 2 can merge that'd be swell. If they cant......reggie is still gonna be a bust! (snickers and runs away)

Vinny
01-09-2006, 12:22 PM
Vinny, a bit venemous are we?Not really. If you haven't watched the man play you shouldn't be acting like an expert.We could fight about this like little girls, or you could face the simple, cold truth of the matter: you don't draft a guy based on where he was from.

You don't. It doesn't happen. I am surprised that you of all people on this board would pitch such a fit about drafting Vince because he's a hometown guy.

That's YOUR straw man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) argument not mine. I want Young because I think he will be a superstar QB. I have a long history of not liking Carr's game. Add them up...simple math.

SBTexans08
01-09-2006, 12:23 PM
I did not see anything but highlights from either of those two games, so forgive me if I am understating his abilities.

Either way, the point is that we do not draft a player based on where he is from.

Put a sock in it, already. If we draft Vince, it will be because management feels he is the best player for this franchise, in terms of his ability to lead our team to wins. Not because his grandma and all the Longhorns around here can come to all the games.

I have made no small secret of the fact that I believe he is not the best player for this franchise, but if we are going to talk about drafting him, let's do it on the basis of his skills: not what high school he went to.
Hmmm....listen...I was just giving info. I too don't feel Vince is what the Texans need. I say draft Reggie!! But....Vince has done more than that USC game....and no it's not just one game that changed people's minds. It's that one game that sealed the deal. He finished off the seaon in a manner that couldn't be beat.....on the highest note possible.

AustinJB
01-09-2006, 12:27 PM
All of you people who don't believe in Young's ability must not have watched him very much.

And to the real haters who are sickened by all the hype since the Rose Bowl: it wasn't here before because there was very little evidence that VY was coming out. Now that he is everything has changed.

I agree. I'm so sick of everyone saying that all the hype is b/c he had one great game. All of the hype is b/c he is a phenomenol athelete and QUARTERBACK. The Rose Bowl game just elevated the nation's awareness of his abilities and allowed him to enter the draft a year early. If everyone would have known that he was coming out a year early, I dare say that the chants at the end of the year would have been "VINCE, VINCE" instead of "REGGIE, REGGIE"

Grid
01-09-2006, 12:28 PM
so now he isnt just a QB and a promising college prospect.. he is the next evolutionary step of mankind? wow.. we better be careful.. the last city that worshipped idols like this got struck down by God :)

hes a rushing QB.. plain and simple. He likes to run... he will run to "make a play" instead of staying in the pocket and trying to make a play with his arm.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 12:30 PM
so now he isnt just a QB and a promising college prospect.. he is the next evolutionary step of mankind? wow.. we better be careful.. the last city that worshipped idols like this got struck down by God :)

hes a rushing QB.. plain and simple. He likes to run... he will run to "make a play" instead of staying in the pocket and trying to make a play with his arm.

How is David Carr sitting in that solid, roomy, houston pocket making plays with his arm working out for us?

groutfulone
01-09-2006, 12:33 PM
so now he isnt just a QB and a promising college prospect.. he is the next evolutionary step of mankind? wow.. we better be careful.. the last city that worshipped idols like this got struck down by God :)

hes a rushing QB.. plain and simple. He likes to run... he will run to "make a play" instead of staying in the pocket and trying to make a play with his arm.

I shouldn't bite, but this post is so silly I have to.

The next evolutionary step of mankind? Man, get a grip. I said he was the culmination of the developing "athletic quarterback". Stop being so melodramatic.

Just a rushing QB? Just shows how little you have watched him.

SBTexans08
01-09-2006, 12:34 PM
hes a rushing QB.. plain and simple. He likes to run... he will run to "make a play" instead of staying in the pocket and trying to make a play with his arm.
I tell ya what....I'm all for Reggie....for the record. But...I'll take that play made you are talking about, with the legs or arm over no plays that plagued the Texans this season. :)

Hardcore Texan
01-09-2006, 12:34 PM
I have always liked the "Voice of the Fan" segments. I was disappointed to see him disappear for a long time during the season, during the darkest part of the season, those gutwrenching last minute loses. I guess I was hoping some of the orginization would see those articles, as he does a good job conveying the fan's feelings/frustrations IMO. But he didn't write again until Dan Reeves was hired.

AustinJB
01-09-2006, 12:34 PM
so now he isnt just a QB and a promising college prospect.. he is the next evolutionary step of mankind? wow.. we better be careful.. the last city that worshipped idols like this got struck down by God :)

hes a rushing QB.. plain and simple. He likes to run... he will run to "make a play" instead of staying in the pocket and trying to make a play with his arm.

WRONG. That was last year. This year he made a point in the offseason to work on just that. That is why defenses could not stop him this year whereas some did last year. For all the people that think they can stack the box and stop VY, they are wrong. If you do that, he WILL throw, accurately I might add. That's what the best defense he faced all year (Ohio State), did and he threw the ball to beat them. I know that the NFL is a different story, but that is where his upside, leadership and work ethic come in. He has improved every single year he has played...no reason to think that he will not do the same on the pro level.

Kaiser Toro
01-09-2006, 12:37 PM
Good article that clearly illustrates a take on a possible option to use the first pick on. Whether it be this option or Bush or trading down it comes down to one thing - what do we do with David Carr? This is the domino that must fall first.

GoBlue
01-09-2006, 12:40 PM
Since the Rose Bowl the content and tone of this board sickens me.
I couldn't agree more. I'll check back in Feb when the NFL combine starts

Errant Hothy
01-09-2006, 12:44 PM
Just a rushing QB? Just shows how little you have watched him.

The same could be said of you.

VY is a rushing QB running a GIMMICK offense ( the same gimmick Utah, Tech, Michigan State and several others run) called the spread. Add to that the main running plays were all option reads (a play that has no change of working in teh NFL), a tendancy to float the occsional pass, the most horrid throwing motion I've seen on a top QB prospect in forever, and I've never seen him throw an 10-15 yard out pass, ever in college. Nor has anybody seen him take a snap fom center, take a 7 step drop, and make a pass against D that isn't overly concerned about stopping him from running (cause he ain't Vick and I don't think most Dline and LB corps will be as frightened of him as USC was)

As an athlete he is a freak of nature, as a QB prospect I'm not so sure. I mean he has 1 good year passing in college, remind you of anybody already on the roster?

Damnit I promised myself I'd stay out of this!! And why does this happen to this board every year, first it was Taylor, then DJ, now its VY.:brickwall

JDizzle
01-09-2006, 12:46 PM
Well, if Carr stinks next season, there's always Troy Smith next year. I love Troy Smith ...

SESupergenius
01-09-2006, 12:54 PM
That was an article to pretty much set Carr up for failure. There seems to be one of those "greatest players we've seen in a long time" quotes that people fling out to sound cute. Passing on Carr could set us back a generation as well, or worse, you select Young to back up Carr and you still don't have an impact player at the needed skill positions for at least 2 years all the while setting up Carr to fail because you didn't add a needed impact player in this draft for his offense. You take away a top pick in the draft from Carr to work with now, because that top pick is now sitting behind Carr waiting for him to fail and won't add anything to Carrs cause, which is the main reason our offense stunk for so long. Then if Carr fails Young gets a free pass to learn the system and add at least 2 more years to figure out if he is any good in the NFL. What weapons on offense to do we really have? Andre Johnson. DD? Please. Carr now has to pick up a new system, new Coordinators, new coaching staff and I just can't wait for the fans to swing this one into the "I told we should have starter Young" debate when Carr isn't given a learning curve. What is the learning curve when a new QB is inserting in Shanahans system? Let's go ahead and put that down on record now before the next season starts.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 12:57 PM
That was an article to pretty much set Carr up for failure. There seems to be one of those "greatest players we've seen in a long time" quotes that people fling out to sound cute. Passing on Carr could set us back a generation as well, or worse, you select Young to back up Carr and you still don't have an impact player at the needed skill positions for at least 2 years all the while setting up Carr to fail because you didn't add a needed impact player in this draft for his offense. You take away a top pick in the draft from Carr to work with now, because that top pick is now sitting behind Carr waiting for him to fail and won't add anything to Carrs cause, which is the main reason our offense stunk for so long. Then if Carr fails Young gets a free pass to learn the system and add at least 2 more years to figure out if he is any good in the NFL. What weapons on offense to do we really have? Andre Johnson. DD? Please. Carr now has to pick up a new system, new Coordinators, new coaching staff and I just can't wait for the fans to swing this one into the "I told we should have starter Young" debate when Carr isn't given a learning curve. What is the learning curve when a new QB is inserting in Shanahans system? Let's go ahead and put that down on record now before the next season starts.


The problem is, you cant be in year 5 of your career and be allotted a learning curve. Carr has to adjust now, as harsh as that sounds. The franchise cant give him 8 years of opportunity just to see if he COULD be sucessfull. You know why young gets a free pass to learn the system? cause he would be a ROOKIE. It takes time to develop rookie quarterbacks. However, Carr is a 4 year veteran. It should not still be taking time for him to develop. So what if you give carr your "learning curve", and gasp...he stilll isnt getting it done. Then you've wasted 7 years and several million dollars on what people are seeing now.....a lot of blown potential.

LBC_Justin
01-09-2006, 12:59 PM
Maybe, but ask yourself this question: Would the Texans be better off with Reggie Bush touching the ball 15 times per game with David Carr at quarterback, or with Vince touching it 60 times a game Ė granted one-third of those would be handoffs to Domanick Davis Ė but with the added threat of run or pass to speedy wide receivers Andre Johnson and Jerome Mathis, or maybe even to a (gasp) tight end?

While a lineup of Carr, Johnson, Mathis, Bush and Davis on the field at the same time sounds intriguing, a lineup of Vince, Johnson, Mathis, Davis, and a new offensive lineman with the second pick in the draft also sounds very intriguing Ė along with some defensive help of course.

I think the article was good. I would love to have Vince.

But I am a man of logic and this part of the article lacked logic.

Why would he talk about the benefits of having Vince with a tight-end, a new offensive lineman, an some defensive help, but not give that to Carr also? didn't make sense and smacked of bias.

Heck I would think if Carr had Bush, Davis, Johnson, Mathis, a new tight-end, a new offensive lineman, and some defensive help that would be pretty great too.

again I am a Vince Young fan and I have been flip flopping more on these issues than John Kerry. I think I might be going crazy.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 01:03 PM
shrug...i want us to win. Carr/Young/Montana out of Retirement/Bush/Davis/Lawrence Taylor.....

I dont even care anymore. Just flip our record to 14-2 and give me a nice shiny trophy to go look at

texasguy346
01-09-2006, 01:06 PM
Great work yet again by aj. I'm a bit on the fence still in the whole Young/Bush/ Trade Down argument. They each have their own level of risk/reward, and just like with anything else the higher the risk the higher the possible reward.

IMO Young is probably the most risky pick at this point if taken at #1 overall. He's a great talent, and I'm not saying his game won't translate to the NFL game. With Young & Carr on the team you have a very good chance of having a QB controversy on your hands. That's hard enough for seasoned NFL teams to deal with much less a team that's just had an absolutely horrid season and lacking any confidence whatsoever. You'll have some players move to the Carr's the starter camp, and some who move to the Young should be the starter camp. Many will point to the SD scenario, and how they've managed to deal with it. That's very true, but SD managed to win. Something our Texans aren't likely to do next season with Carr or Young undercenter. Winning fixes everything, but when you're losing the finger pointing starts. Young also has the highest reward. He could be Donovan McNabb type of player. He'd be the face of the franchise, and he could be a consistant winner who always makes the big play when called on. He'll sell tons of tickets. He might even lead the Texans to the Super Bowl.

Then you have Bush being picked at #1. The risk level on this pick isn't quite as high as with VY, but it's still close. You won't have a RB controversy. You can design plays to have both players on the field at the same time, and you can put Reggie in motion get him matched up on a LB in the open field and let him cause headaches for the opposing teams defense. You can put Reggie back to return kicks with Mathis, and let kickers pick their poison. He's a playmaker plain and simple, and the Texans definately have a need for another playmaker. You do still risk quite a bit with this pick though. The worse case scenario is that you take Bush at #1, and the Titans take Young at #3. This scenario has been covered plenty of times so I won't go into much more detail than that. You're also risking that Bush won't ever live up to his hype. He'll forever play in the shadow of Vince Young in the hearts and minds of Texans fans, and the What Ifs will be endless. Perhaps Bush looks more like Kevin Jones early in his NFL career than Gayle Sayers. Fans won't be very patient with him. Especially if Young is cruising along swimmingly with the Titans. This could very well erode part of your fanbase.

Finally the Trade Down scenario. This is by far the least risky choice. Along with a minimal risk you face a minimal reward. Sure we could trade down to the 4th or 6th pick and perhaps pick up Ferguson or Hawk or someone along those lines. We would have to be blown away with a great deal of course, but stranger things have happened. Rationally if we managed to get 4 or 5 starters out of this trade, and perhaps 2 or 3 Pro Bowl caliber players we'd be in a good position. We'd be better able to right the ship, and we'd have a better shot at doing more winning in 07 with the extra picks/talent. The risk here is that Young and Bush could go on to be great NFL players, and with CC at the helm all those extra picks might not amount to much more than a few 'magic' beans. This would be a bigger slap in the face to the fans that just passing on Young because CC would have essientially passed on both Bush and Young.

In the end I'm glad I'm not the one having to make this decision. It's a tough problem, and it will be pivotal to this franchises development. If we make the right decision this franchise could be headed toward the success we've always dreamed of, but if we make the wrong decision this franchise could be nosediving to the bottom of the league for years and years to come. Keep in mind though that the right decision is very seldom the popular decision. This time I'm not sure what is the right choice.

Hervoyel
01-09-2006, 01:08 PM
And to the real haters who are sickened by all the hype since the Rose Bowl: it wasn't here before because there was very little evidence that VY was coming out. Now that he is everything has changed.

Yeah that's me, mean ol' hater that I am.

Hookem Horns
01-09-2006, 01:09 PM
Rushing QB's (or better yet, QB's that can run) can't go to or win Super Bowls?

Steve Young, John Elway, Donovan McNabb, Steve McNair, and Fran Tarkington all had pretty good legs. All could run around like crazy to make a play.

thegr8fan
01-09-2006, 01:10 PM
very well written article aj_, and I agree totally. Sign Carr to a 2 year deal, give Young a year to pick up the game and offensive scheme, play him where you can slip him in to get some gametime, at the end of a game possibly. Then drop the 'potentially great, but in reality never did anything even remotely good' Carr like a bad habit. The guy has had more time to improve and show his potential than most QB's and alot of Head Coach's get in the NFL. He had his chance and never achieved anything, get rid of him, IMHO.

Couple your article with the thought that I do not understand how the Texans are going to draft a RB, ANY RB, as the first pick, with the money that goes into the first pick and the current salary's of RB's in the NFL. Why not take Young as our first pick and take a FA RB who has proven themselves to be an every down quality RB, like James who will most likely be a FA after this year. Or any other quality RB. Reggie Bush sure didn't impress me as the next Ricky Williams/ Shaun Alexander type RB anyway. How could the Texans qualify paying the salary to Bush that would command as the #1 pick. RB's salary's in the NFL have been in a steady decline recently due to their availability. I say pick up a PROVEN FA RB and take Young with our first pick.

Hookem Horns
01-09-2006, 01:23 PM
I could have swear I think Carr finished 1st in the AFC in rushing QBs and made plays while on the run.

LOL, then what's the point with you pro-Carr/anti-Vince people saying "running QB's can't win Super Bowls"?? :thud:

Doug
01-09-2006, 01:30 PM
This subject goes from one extreme to the next and I'm taking it to another. It's funny that when Reggie Bush was supposedly the best athlete in the draft that's who alot of people were wanting on this team even though our only bright spot on offense was the running back position. Now Vince has declared and is a threat to take over a position that has struggled for 4 years (Regardless of the reason), and people are saying we don't need him. Not to mention the fact that throughout this year, as well as last, it was stated by several that we needed to take the best offensive lineman in the draft regardless of who else is available because our O line has been horrible for too long. Now we have an opportunity to do it and we're going to take the most atheletic player available. If we keep putting off picking up linemen till the later rounds it's going to take several years before we have a decent line. I agree and disagree with so many points from all sides that right now, my biggest concern is who is going to coach this team into contention. I was a big supporter of trading for more picks but now that Casserly is staying and all signs are pointing toward the fact that we are going to use our first pick, I guess I'm a bit neutral on the subject as far as what to do with it. The funny thing is, that for every valid point you have on Reggie Bush, one could be made for Vince Young and vice versa. It seems that for every person who opposes one or the other, really underestimates the accomplishments and athletic ability of the player they are opposing. Not to mention, the O Line is put second on the priority list again and this year when our QB hasn't got time to throw and is running to make something happen, everyone is going to be saying, "See I told you we didn't do enough to shore up this offensive line!"
Well, I guess I argued myself into believing we need to do something about the offensive line before anything else. LOL

TEXANS84
01-09-2006, 01:33 PM
Or we could just throw him under a bus. O wait I think some already have.

With an 18-46 record as the "franchise quarterback", I believe he's already thrown 4 million Houstonians under the bus....not to mention collected 50 million dollars for his own pocket in the meantime.

J-Man
01-09-2006, 01:33 PM
For the record I think we should draft Bush or Trade down. I think Carr could suceed with a new staff and some help on the line. I'm not frothing over this like a lot of folks and I wouldn't have a problem if Vy is drafted. I might not agree but I'm not paid to draft guys and I'll assume they know better, just like I will assume that the new staff did the right think if they trade down or take Bush.

Here is a what if...

We draft Vince and sit him behind Carr. Carr has a pretty good year, let's say 25 td's, 10 int's, around 65% and the team goes 7-9 maybe 8-8. Do we continue to to shop him for trade or hang onto him? I refer to this as the Drew Brees Scenerio. We would have the same basic problem that they had except for one BIG fact. Our cap cannot in anyway sustain the payroll situation the way SD's did.

To me if we did in fact draft Young it tells me we need to move Carr ASAP and take the short term cap hit.

Dennis007
01-09-2006, 01:38 PM
With an 18-46 record as the "franchise quarterback", I believe he's already thrown 4 million Houstonians under the bus....not to mention collected 50 million dollars for his own pocket in the meantime.

:ok:

Will u tell Cassely and Mc Nair what team they own?!, I think they got the blue uniforms mixed up.. they think we're the Colts!...

geofb
01-09-2006, 01:39 PM
The playbook one would use with Young at QB is quite different than normal. Basically, it's drop back take one quick look to see if anyone is WIDE open and, if not, just take off running. It worked in college. It won't work in the NFL, at least not for long. It takes a true passer to succeed in the NFL. That Vince is not. Let Tennessee have him.

stevo3883
01-09-2006, 01:41 PM
The playbook one would use with Young at QB is quite different than normal. Basically, it's drop back take one quick look to see if anyone is WIDE open and, if not, just take off running. It worked in college. It won't work in the NFL, at least not for long. It takes a true passer to succeed in the NFL. That Vince is not. Let Tennessee have him.


lol im trying to stay out of this for the most part, but this was so hilarious

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT DAVID CARR DOES!

SESupergenius
01-09-2006, 02:04 PM
The problem is, you cant be in year 5 of your career and be allotted a learning curve. Carr has to adjust now, as harsh as that sounds. The franchise cant give him 8 years of opportunity just to see if he COULD be sucessfull. You know why young gets a free pass to learn the system? cause he would be a ROOKIE. It takes time to develop rookie quarterbacks. However, Carr is a 4 year veteran. It should not still be taking time for him to develop. So what if you give carr your "learning curve", and gasp...he stilll isnt getting it done. Then you've wasted 7 years and several million dollars on what people are seeing now.....a lot of blown potential.
Sure you can, especially when an owner and GM are putting the offensive woes on the faults pf the coach and his system, that is the reason they were fired. You are basically saying that it's Carrs fault and that they should have fired Carr, not Capers and his staff. I guess we don't need to draft any offensive lineman because Young is going to out run them all. I'm not a Carr homer nor am I a Young hater, but I do know that this team needs an inducement of talent to succeed in 2 years. I am a proponent of trading down if a good offer comes along or selecting the best player available to us. Considering that the 2 best players are QB and RB, two positions we don't really need, that opens my eyes to whole playing field. It's been written over and over that his offensive line is horrible, but I guess the likes of you don't think so and may want to give the line another year under a new coach becaue you think it is good.

You want me to answer the question on how long it takes a QB to be good in Shanahans system? 2 years and some good drafting.

The Dream
01-09-2006, 02:05 PM
this article is genius........hopefully CC will read this.

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 02:16 PM
Sure you can, especially when an owner and GM are putting the offensive woes on the faults pf the coach and his system, that is the reason they were fired. You are basically saying that it's Carrs fault and that they should have fired Carr, not Capers and his staff. I guess we don't need to draft any offensive lineman because Young is going to out run them all. I'm not a Carr homer nor am I a Young hater, but I do know that this team needs an inducement of talent to succeed in 2 years. I am a proponent of trading down if a good offer comes along or selecting the best player available to us. Considering that the 2 best players are QB and RB, two positions we don't really need, that opens my eyes to whole playing field. It's been written over and over that his offensive line is horrible, but I guess the likes of you don't think so and may want to give the line another year under a new coach becaue you think it is good.

You want me to answer the question on how long it takes a QB to be good in Shanahans system? 2 years and some good drafting.

so 6 years for carr, IF you get your ideal draft for him, and if he takes to the new system...so in year 7 of our franchise, our first overall pick ever MIGHT be good? I dont have any more patience to let david carr develop. Most nfl qbs only get 3 years, carr has had 4. I refuse to give him 2 more.

The Dream
01-09-2006, 02:27 PM
WRONG. That was last year. This year he made a point in the offseason to work on just that. That is why defenses could not stop him this year whereas some did last year. For all the people that think they can stack the box and stop VY, they are wrong. If you do that, he WILL throw, accurately I might add. That's what the best defense he faced all year (Ohio State), did and he threw the ball to beat them. I know that the NFL is a different story, but that is where his upside, leadership and work ethic come in. He has improved every single year he has played...no reason to think that he will not do the same on the pro level.



Exactly..............I went to Pearland Highschool and I remember we had a QB by the name of Noah Allen, and some people were trying to tell me that Noah would be a better QB at the college level, because of his throwing motion....they knocked VY then and they knock him now, when will they learn that he the man has a superior work ethic and that he HAS gotten better every year.

BigWig
01-09-2006, 02:30 PM
Wow, this has been the most fun and head spinning read I have had in awhile!
AJ's cloumn is working everyone into a lather.

Hervoyel
01-09-2006, 02:46 PM
so 6 years for carr, IF you get your ideal draft for him, and if he takes to the new system...so in year 7 of our franchise, our first overall pick ever MIGHT be good? I dont have any more patience to let david carr develop. Most nfl qbs only get 3 years, carr has had 4. I refuse to give him 2 more.

Well, it's a good thing that you're not our GM then isn't it.

Most NFL quarterbacks don't start on day one for expansion teams either nor do they find themselves playing on an offense that's been together for a few months and that runs out 5-6 rookies. Most NFL quarterbacks don't get sacked 76 times in one season.

The one thing our QB does have in common with "most" NFL quarterbacks is that they play in front of fans with no patience whatsoever. That part of "The David Carr" experience is just like everyone elses NFL quarterback ride.

BeerTastesLikeVictory
01-09-2006, 02:53 PM
I could think of bigger problems that having to choose between 2 future hall of famers.

Texans_Chick
01-09-2006, 03:08 PM
you could face the simple, cold truth of the matter: you don't draft a guy based on where he was from.

You don't. It doesn't happen. I am surprised that you of all people on this board would pitch such a fit about drafting Vince because he's a hometown guy.......
Because you don't draft NFL players based on where they are from. That's why.


I think most of the VY supporters would want to draft a QB with his amazing skills no matter where he is from.

It is just a plus factor that he is from Houston and really really wants to play here. There are not too many players that can say that.

You can try to be all vulcan about it and say that marketing and making fans happy and whatever doesn't matter, but that is not true. Winning will get fans in the seats and there is no guarantee that whoever we pick will result in immediate wins.

Fans in the seats matter. If you $%^& off the fans, and they don't use their corporate seats and we have a half empty stadium, it isn't condusive to winning or attracting free agents.

I want it LOUD in Reliant again. Only time that really happened this season was at the Big 12 Championship.:redtowel:

Coach C.
01-09-2006, 03:16 PM
VY supporters, please list for me VY's stats, intangibles, and mannerisms that make him you all's top prospect. Nothing emotional would be great.

Double Barrel
01-09-2006, 03:18 PM
I could think of bigger problems that having to choose between 2 future hall of famers.

heh-heh, dudes have yet to play a down of NFL football, and the Hall of Fame is ready to retire their numbers. :heh:

Excuse me if I wait a decade to make that judgement call. :rolleyes:

The Dream
01-09-2006, 03:18 PM
have argued against Vince' skill elsewhere, and will not repeat it here - is that you do not draft based on popularity.

let me say this, I don't care where Vince played his HS or college ball at, what I do care about is his amazing skills, leadership,will to win, and desire to be better....like Texans Chick said, him being from Houston just makes it that much better.

chuckm
01-09-2006, 03:32 PM
VY supporters, please list for me VY's stats, intangibles, and mannerisms that make him you all's top prospect. Nothing emotional would be great.


You want stats ... I'll give you stats ..... played in Houston ... threw for an NCAA-record 4699 yards and 46 touchdowns ... shattered 26 NCAA and 15 Southwest Conference passing and total offense records ... won the heisman Trophy .... oh wait that's Andre Ware

SESupergenius
01-09-2006, 03:36 PM
so 6 years for carr, IF you get your ideal draft for him, and if he takes to the new system...so in year 7 of our franchise, our first overall pick ever MIGHT be good? I dont have any more patience to let david carr develop. Most nfl qbs only get 3 years, carr has had 4. I refuse to give him 2 more.
Most NFL QBs didn't have the start that the Texans did. And sorry to tell you this, but Carr progressed EVERY year until last year. Farve knows what it's like to not have weapons or protection either as his team was very similar to ours. I don't care if it's year 30, if you don't address the issues of this team and keep drafting positions that don't need to be upgraded then you are going to be picking in the top 10 for a while. I don't have patience for a Vickesque QB that that MIGHT be a QB and we let our other QB go. I've seen enough of Carr to know that in the right system and with other players around him he will lead this team to do good. If we don't address the other needs of this offense, OL, TE, WR, RB, then sure, I don't mind paying some cash to watch Young dart all over the field an an unorganized fashion.

Texans2005
01-09-2006, 03:44 PM
Washington State head coach Bill Doba:
"If you've got a linebacker covering him, you might as well start singing their fight song."


USC Heisman Trophy-winning quarterback Matt Leinart:
"Every time Reggie touches the ball, anything can happen...He's an awesome weapon...A lot of people think he's an outside runner, but he's tough. He can run in between the tackles...When he first came to USC, he was running all over our first defense in fall camp, cutting back, reversing his field. We knew he was special. Anytime he has the ball, something big could happen. It's unbelievable what he can do."


Former USC All-American defensive end Kenechi Udeze:
"He's fun to watch. I remember his first day of practice, he must have run a circle around the whole defense and sprinted for a touchdown. Then to see it happen in the games was really funny."


Former USC All-American wide receiver Mike Williams:
"Reggie's the ultimate weapon."


Former USC center Norm Katnik:
"He's a special guy. He can shake people like no other. I almost tackled him two times myself. He has the ability to make people miss." USC athletic director and 1965 Heisman Trophy-winning tailback Mike Garrett: "He's going to be one of the best ever. He looks like another Gale Sayers."


USC head coach Pete Carroll:
"I told him, 'You're the most valuable guy on the field for what you're creating by your presence.'...The overriding element of his game is he's just got such fantastic hands. You can look at the speed and all the rest, but few guys catch the ball so well. I'm talking about anybody, not just running backs."


Ivan Maisel, ESPN.com:
"He releases adrenaline in every bloodstream the minute he touches the ball."


Gene Wojciechowski, ESPN.com:
"He's a human highlight tape."


Steve Bisheff, Orange County Register:
"Bush is definitely the most exciting player in college football. Bush with the football in an open space is like Barry Bonds at the plate with the bases loaded. Immediately, your senses heighten. Your pulse races. Your eyes refuse to look anywhere else...No one in college football has anyone like him. No one else is even close...The Trojans' flashy hummingbird of an all-purpose player is an amalgam of all the great USC backs through the years."


Steve Kelley, Seattle Times:
"Bush is one-of-a-kind. So good, so versatile, USC's coaching staff is just beginning to see all the ways he can be used. When he touches the ball, defensive coordinators hold their breath. Every play called for him can be a game-breaker. Every touch can be something you'll never forget...Bush zig-zags through defenses as if he has a sixth sense for the location of the next sliver of daylight. He cuts as sharply as a Ferrari in a chicane. He shimmies like a dancer in a music video. A football field is 53 yards wide, and there are plays where Reggie Bush seems to use every inch from sideline to sideline...'The President' is carving exquisite, artful-dodger runs through desperately grasping and gasping defenses. Re-awakening the echoes of all the great Trojan tailbacks who preceded him. Hail to the Chief."


Dennis Dodd, CBS Sportsline.com:
"They call him "The President." They might soon be calling him The King...He is that rare back with the speed and strength to run through the line and the ability to make defenders miss in space when he goes out for a pass...He is a symbol for what USC was, is and will be."


Randy Youngman, Orange County Register:
"Even if he got to carry or catch the ball on every down, I would never get tired of watching Reggie Bush, USC's electrifying running back. Bush has so many open-field moves, he's more elusive than 'The Fugitive.' Now you see him, now you don't...touchdown, Trojans!"


Arash Markazi, Daily Trojan:
"Reggie Bush looks like a creation from a video game-an almost unreal character created by a kid who finds all the secret codes to make his player faster, quicker and better than everyone else on the field...He always makes the impossible seem possible. The scary thing for USC's opponents is that this creation isn't imaginary. He's not from a video game. He's a living, breathing human joystick who terrorizes defenses with his blinding speed and ankle-breaking shimmies...His speed borders on blinding and his knack for eluding defenders borders on ridiculous."


Former Washington head coach Keith Gilbertson:
"I don't care what formation they're in, you better know where No. 5 is, OK? End of story."


Virginia Teach head coach Frank Beamer:
"If he could throw, he'd be Michael Vick." California head coach Jeff Tedford: "If he's not the best player in the country, he's one of the top, no question...He is so talented than any one-on-one situation, he's going to win. You have to pay attention to where he is."


Former Oregon State quarterback Derek Anderson:
"The kid is unbelievable. I've never seen anything like it, in the NFL or wherever."


Former Stanford head coach Buddy Teevens:
"You can't really stop Bush, to be perfectly honest. He's in a class by himself."


Former Stanford assistant coach Tom Williams:
"He is the most versatile player in the country and, in my opinion, he's the best player in the country."


Arizona State head coach Dirk Koetter:
"He can do it all. Every time he touches the ball, you hold your breath."


Former BYU head coach Gary Crowton:
"He's as good as any receiver on their team, and the next moment, he's running with power, makes one guy miss and he's so fast he can go the distance. He just has the ability to create lots of matchup problems without them changing personnel groups. That's a real luxury they have. It kind of reminds me of Marshall Faulk."


Colorado State head coach Sonny Lubick:
"The thing that makes him so darned good is he's such a confident young guy and he's never out of the play, no matter how bleak it looks, no matter how much you have him surrounded."


Kirk Herbstreit, ESPN:
"The most explosive player in college football is Reggie Bush. The best player in the country wears No. 5 for USC. If you get a chance, check him out. Reggie Bush...He's the most electrifying player in college football. Every time he touches the ball, he can score."


Bud Withers, Seattle Times:
"There is little doubt that Bush is the most dynamic player in the nation. He may not win the Heisman Trophy, but voters ought to think long and hard if defenders' broken ankles, Bush's gasp-inducing cuts and spinning, serpentine dashes matter."


Ted Miller, ESPN.com:
"Bush is Shakespeare. He's gifted with speedy brilliance and flourish. Bush is 200 pounds of sound and fury signifying touchdown. He doth rise from the ground like feathered Mercury striding the heavens...He resembles the elusive Gale Sayers or the versatile Marshall Faulk."


David Leon Moore, USA Today:
"Bush is basically a sworn enemy of a straight line. He's all switchbacks and zigzags, spin moves and ankle-breaking shimmies. Some people even think he is already the most entertaining, and maybe best, college football player in the country...He is a quiet sort, polite, humble, good grades, solid citizen...On a football field, he gets around like nobody else. Here, there, this sideline, that end zone, he's running, receiving, returning, making plays, scoring touchdowns, winning games...He runs with a can't-take-your-eyes-off-him style that seems part Marshall Faulk, part Barry Sanders, part Gale Sayers."


Nick Canepa, San Diego Union-Tribune:
"Bush, who runs like a witch flies, has developed into the most dangerous player in the country."


Jeff Miller, Orange County Register:
"What defenders see are hips and elbows and ankles and forearms and shoe bottoms, all of it twisting and spinning until what remains is a trail of vapor and shadows and empty-armed opponents...USC uses him to create Maalox matchups for the opposition. When Bush is positioned anywhere but the backfield, 10 defenders can be seen pointing and waving, motioning as to his whereabouts."


USC tailback LenDale White:
"He's smooth. He's got mad, crazy speed...If Reggie's not the best there is, he's one of the best. He opens this offense up so much just by being there." Former USC All-American defensive lineman Shaun Cody: "Practicing against him was great training for us. You want to improve your quickness, try chasing a rabbit around."


Former USC tight end Alex Holmes:
"When he's in, you heard linebackers screaming every time. They were all shouting about 'No. 5.' Reggie is a guy who literally changes the game just by being out there."


Former USC All-American linebacker Lofa Tatupu:
"We just sat back on Saturday and watched the show...Not to take credit away from the offensive line because they've done a great job, but Reggie sets up his blocks so well that they can miss their man completely and he still gets through...I've even told guys on the other team, 'Don't feel bad. He got me with that play twice this week in practice, too.'"


Former USC cornerback Kevin Arbet:
"He's the best player I've ever played with or against. When he's running an option route against you, you just have to guess. It's impossible."


Patrick Kinmartin, Daily Trojan:
"His combination of track-sprinter speed and music-video shiftiness makes him a one-man show."


Dan Weber, Riverside Press-Telegram:
"Bush awes his teammates daily with his ability to get to full speed on his second step."


Todd Harmonson, Orange County Register:
"Bush is a highlight-show fixture with physiology-defying, did-he-do-that moves. The easy comparison is to Marshall Faulk because of the similarity in all-around games, but those who saw Gale Sayers recognize the speed, spins and spellbinding cuts...He is a speed demon who sees Christmas morning when a linebacker tries to defend him and a winnable challenge when a quick corner draws the assignment...Off the field, Bush is a quiet leader who is on track to graduate in 3 Ĺ years."


Phil Collin, South Bay Daily Breeze:
"Around USC now, they're simply wondering what Reggie will come up with next. The thing is, they know it's coming. Opponents do too...As brilliant as he can be on the football field, Bush is simply that humble off of it. He smiles sheepishly at the mention of his nickname, 'The President.'"


Gary Klein, Los Angeles Times:
"Keith Gilbertson half-jokingly labeled the situation unfair. Bill Doba called the potential problems monstrous. Mike Riley found only one word to describe it-horrible. That's what these Pac-10 coaches said when asked to assess difficulties created for defenses when Reggie Bush lines up as a receiver."


Michael Ventre, MSNBC.com:
"Bush is young and multi-talented. He's a running back. He's a receiver. He's a kick returner. He's a punt returner. He's even a passer. If you try to pigeonhole him, you'd better have lots of pigeonholes...Bush can stop on a dime, give you nine cents change, then blow past you before you can bend to pick it up...When it comes to pure, all-around, pound-for-pound value from a college football player, it's hard to beat what Bush brings to the table...He's a genuine once-in-a-generation player...And he's a good kid-smart, down to earth, respectful of others yet supremely confident...He has turned a run-of-the-mill punt return into an event. He causes teams to kick away from him on kickoffs. When he comes into the game, defenders cast desperate looks at their sideline for advice."

Long-Spurs-Texan
01-09-2006, 03:55 PM
[QUOTE=Grid]Rushing QBs dont win superbowls.QUOTE]

John Elway & Steve Young won superbowls. Fran Tarkenton took the Vikings 3 times to the SB. Mcnabb has taken the Eagles. Steve Mcnair was a former MVP, and led the Titans to the playoffs 4-5 years in his prime. If Randall Cunningham wouldn't have blown out his knee with the Eagles, he could have been even better. Michael Vick has taken the Atlanta Falcons to the NFC Championship game last year. Disagree all you want. Scrambling QB's have had some success at this level.

michaelm
01-09-2006, 03:55 PM
Young plays in a very un-NFL offense right now...


Unfortunately, so Does Carr...!

swtbound07
01-09-2006, 03:59 PM
Well, it's a good thing that you're not our GM then isn't it.

Most NFL quarterbacks don't start on day one for expansion teams either nor do they find themselves playing on an offense that's been together for a few months and that runs out 5-6 rookies. Most NFL quarterbacks don't get sacked 76 times in one season.

The one thing our QB does have in common with "most" NFL quarterbacks is that they play in front of fans with no patience whatsoever. That part of "The David Carr" experience is just like everyone elses NFL quarterback ride.


patience for a qb to develop is one thing. Patience for a qb that has failed to re-develop is asking a lot. Carr had his shot. he regressed. Yes, he hasnt had the greatest of circumstances. The point is, you dont know that those circumstances will go away. David carr could play here next year and it could not get any better. Does his 3 year development clock START when you put a competent team behind him? Cause if so, he might be waiting until year 9

SESupergenius
01-09-2006, 04:09 PM
patience for a qb to develop is one thing. Patience for a qb that has failed to re-develop is asking a lot. Carr had his shot. he regressed. Yes, he hasnt had the greatest of circumstances. The point is, you dont know that those circumstances will go away. David carr could play here next year and it could not get any better. Does his 3 year development clock START when you put a competent team behind him? Cause if so, he might be waiting until year 9
Ok that makes "0" sense. When does Young development clock start, AFTER we get talent around HIM?

Hervoyel
01-09-2006, 04:15 PM
patience for a qb to develop is one thing. Patience for a qb that has failed to re-develop is asking a lot. Carr had his shot. he regressed. Yes, he hasnt had the greatest of circumstances. The point is, you dont know that those circumstances will go away. David carr could play here next year and it could not get any better. Does his 3 year development clock START when you put a competent team behind him? Cause if so, he might be waiting until year 9


"re-develop"? He hasn't had a chance to develop once let alone do it again!

"The point is, you don't know that those circumstances will go away" and yet your answer to the problem is to throw another highly touted QB into the same circumstances.

You're right. David Carr could play here next year and it could "not get any better". That could happen. You know what else could happen? You could get Vince Young started on his first 50+ sack season and watch "year one" all over again. If we're waiting until year 9 for the Texans to put a competent team around their QB then I can tell you two things that will be absolute, indisputable facts:

1. David Carr (or Vince Young) will be dead.
2. There won't be very many people left waiting at that point.

Texans_Chick
01-09-2006, 04:16 PM
I understand wanting it loud, and of course, fans play a big role in the financial success of the franchise.

That said, supposing that we either draft Vince Young and lose, or draft Joe Nobody and win, I would rather draft Joe Nobody and win. Moreover, winning = filled seats, no matter who is on the field, really. Losing with VY may fill seats for awhile, but the love affair will die quickly if we go 4-12.

Of course, drafting Vince is not mutually exclusive with winning. The guy may come on here and we go 10-6, to which everyone says the great champion has descended from Zeus and look at what was wrought as a result, ignoring coaches or whatever other sweeping changes were made here in the meantime.

However, I digress. My point throughout this thread - I have argued against Vince' skill elsewhere, and will not repeat it here - is that you do not draft based on popularity. This isn't a coffee shop, and we are not talking about trendy decor and kitsch. We are not selling out a concert here. We are talking about winning football games, which at the end of the day, the end of the week, the end of the season ... IS the end-all, be-all, most important factor toward fan recognition and appreciation.

Stuff the VY-marketing argument, because it is isn't relevant here.

The Texans need fans to have some more patience because the odds are that with next year's schedule and sweeping new changes that need to be implementing, we are not going to be winning quickly.

VY buys you more patience.

My point on the marketing is that it is just a plus factor. That taking Bush or Young is a gamble, both have potential and risk, and in your calculus of risk-reward, it is something that you should consider. Sports is not just a cold thing you can input to a computer and figure out what means winning--it is partially an emotional thing, and ignore passion to your peril.

That's all.

Hervoyel
01-09-2006, 04:20 PM
All of which makes a weird yet highly emphatic case for building an O-line and defense.

Beats killing another QB. I just want to get the one we have another weapon (ok two, I want a TE) and a lineman or two this year.

All these Longhorn fans are raging about how the Texans will alienate them if they pass on Vince Young. Wonder how much they'll all love the Texans once Vince crosses that 200 sack line? The only thing worse than ignoring their QB will be getting him killed.

nunusguy
01-09-2006, 04:23 PM
Since the Rose Bowl the content and tone of this board sickens me.
Yea, these discussions about the Rose Bowl are going on ad nauseam.
Pretty soon many on this Board will recommend that no players other
than those in the Rose Bowl game for UT can be considered as Draft picks for the Texans in Aprils Draft this year.

Dennis007
01-09-2006, 04:31 PM
Texans Chick

Normally I respect your style, even if I don't agree with it. However in this case I do think you are missing the point.

We are moving from drafting for the sake of winning to drafting for marketing purposes or "buying time," which is minimally relevant. I know that you and others say go with Young because he is the best thing for us from a winning perspective, but you are moving away from that facet of the argument with each of these posts.

I, as a fan, personally do not care about "buying time." I too recognize that we are a couple of years away from the playoffs as a franchise, but I do not share your dismal outlook for the next season. With a new coaching staff and a good offseason, there is nothing that says we can't go 8-8 next year: just ask the Bengals.

I reiterate: look at the Patriots, most recently. Tom Brady was an absolute nobody, and people love the guy now. They love Brady because he is the face of a highly successful, winning team.

Read my NFL Top Ten in the Last Ten piece for a list full of popular guys who were the absolute big thing in their college days. Some of these names now serve fries at a McDonalds near you.

Fame is fleeting, in pro sports as it anywhere else. People pay, and especially in the NFL, to see winning teams. They pay to go to the game and leave with the Home score being higher than the Visiting score.

Vince Young being from Houston will mean absolutely squat when it comes to producing wins for us this next year. You and others may fight over tickets to that first game to see your new hero in action, and I say fine, that is great that you like the guy and want to see him play. But I guarantee you, if at the end of the year we are 3-12 and duking it out for another top 5 draft pick ... you won't be clamoring for tickets any more.

Winning games and drafting to win games MUST be the franchise focus. Drafting is more than stat lines, it of course involves intangibles and potential and all of that other ying-yang. It does not, however, involve picking hometown boys or the flavor of the month.

So you like the flavor of 18-46? Hmm Interesting, are you part of Casserly's camp?:hmmm:

Ok, next season look forward to being 18-62..:ok:

Double Barrel
01-09-2006, 04:44 PM
All these Longhorn fans are raging about how the Texans will alienate them if they pass on Vince Young. Wonder how much they'll all love the Texans once Vince crosses that 200 sack line? The only thing worse than ignoring their QB will be getting him killed.

Ain't that the truth! :thumbup

The fact of the matter is that any QB in NFL history would look pathetic behind the 2005 Texans offense. It's a no-brainer, really. Just adding one player [however dynamic with unlimited potential] won't change a darn thing. A team overhaul is required, which means only a handful of players get a pass (I'm sure we already know who they are, too).

I have no firm opinion about Bush or Young. I'd happily accept the decision to trade the pick if it was for the right price. I'm in love with no single player, because I'm a Texans fan, first and foremost. Whatever decisions help the team is all I care about (marketing be damned!).

Dennis007
01-09-2006, 04:49 PM
Where does this even come from? Way to make a clever play on words, namely the word "flavor" which you have pulled out of my post and out of your *** and managed to steer far and wide from anything resembling a real conclusion on my argument.

Since you seemed to have grasped writing ... try reading next time.

Try reading the guy's post. Then you'll see Mr. CEO reading for the blind.

Errant Hothy
01-09-2006, 05:00 PM
All this talk of marketing is bogus.

Why?

Because after next year, assuming we draft VY, and we go somewhere in the neighbourhood of 3-13, with VY thorwing a couple of INTs a week that great one year pop we would get from drafting the local hero would diasappear. epically once people relalize that with a new QB this team would be 3-4 yrs away from a playoff run, starting over at the most key position (with a player who will NEED extra time), and that we would still suck.

And all of this is mute till we get HC and hear if he has any say in personnel.

thunderkyss
01-09-2006, 05:01 PM
If we were 7-9 this past year, or even 6-10, then I would agree keeping Carr would be the best thing for the continuity of this team. but at 2-14, then we could wipe the slate clean(if not for the cap rules, this wouldn't be a bad idea), and be no worse off, with a completely new team........ the only way you could have continuity, is to build on your success from the previous years, for our team, that would mean We keep the Offensive line and our running back. That is the only success we have had. Our running game is better than the Colts, Carolina & New England. Putting in a new running back, putting in a two back set...... that would be moving more backwards, than putting in a quarteback who would handle a poor pass protection differently. We're 29 in passing offense. You can't really go to much further backwards in that category, and it's hardly worth saving. Our passing game needs to be improved. I think we need two stud offensive lineman to fix the O-Line. Or 1 QB whose play can negate a lot of bad play from the O-Line.

There was a team in the NFL this year, that lost their homefield.... every game was on the road..... they didn't get to go home after one practice. They didn't go to their favorite cool down spots. Yet, they finished ahead of the Houston Texans. Another team lost their starting QB, and their Backup...... still they finished better than the Houston Texans. There's another team, who lost their head coach mid season...... still they finished better than the Texans.
I'm definitely thinking about putting young on our bench next year. If we're below 500 at mid-season, I want Carr on the bench, and I want a better option than Tony Banks taking his spot.

Dennis007
01-09-2006, 05:02 PM
Hey guys cast your vote on Click 2 Houston regarding the draft..

FYI Vince Young is at 66%

Reggie is just about obsolete.


I say give the fans what they want! :yahoo:

Draft VY 2006!:redtowel:

thunderkyss
01-09-2006, 05:07 PM
All this talk of marketing is bogus.

Why?

Because after next year, assuming we draft VY, and we go somewhere in the neighbourhood of 3-13, with VY thorwing a couple of INTs a week that great one year pop we would get from drafting the local hero would diasappear. epically once people relalize that with a new QB this team would be 3-4 yrs away from a playoff run, starting over at the most key position (with a player who will NEED extra time), and that we would still suck.

And all of this is mute till we get HC and hear if he has any say in personnel.

But what if don't take Young, we trade down, we shore up our offensive line, We add a quality corner........ & we'er still 3-13.

Errant Hothy
01-09-2006, 05:08 PM
Hey guys cast your vote on Click 2 Houston regarding the draft..

FYI Vince Young is at 66%

Reggie is just about obsolete.


I say give the fans what they wany! :yahoo:

Draft VY 2006!:redtowel:

Yeah listen to the fans that how you build a SB winnig team, casue we all know the fans know best:brickwall

Becasue then we would have Taylor, not D-Rob; and minus some number of other players gotten form that draft and the one that followed.

Any once again why are we giving merit to a public poll being conducted in one of the options backyard? Becasue there is no way that it not skewed or anything is there?

On average listening to the fans is the last thing a sports team should do, remember the booing McNabb got from Philly intialy? Think they are glad know that they got Donavon instead of Ricky?

The Dream
01-09-2006, 05:09 PM
Yeah listen to the fans that how you build a SB winnig team, casue we all know the fans know best

They probably know more than CC. :ok:

Nighthawk
01-09-2006, 05:09 PM
BTW Texan Asylum, love the avatar. I remember seeing that game as a kid (playoff game I think?).

Kudos to Texas Asylum for the avatar. Call me crazy but sometimes I just sit here and stare at it. I saw the game, too. It's wonderful and amazing.

Errant Hothy
01-09-2006, 05:11 PM
But what if don't take Young, we trade down, we shore up our offensive line, We add a quality corner........ & we'er still 3-13.

We'd still be closer to be being better then if we drafted Young, who would probaly still not be ready after us going 3-13 in 06.

Errant Hothy
01-09-2006, 05:13 PM
They probably know more than CC. :ok:

Doubtful. How many SB rings do you have?

That's what I thought, now stop acting like you are some undiscovered GM genius and go back to Madden. Because like me, you likely have no idea how to be a succesful NFL GM, nor are you probaly capable of being a succesful GM.

thunderkyss
01-09-2006, 05:22 PM
We'd still be closer to be being better then if we drafted Young, who would probaly still not be ready after us going 3-13 in 06.


See, I'm thinking Young will be ready by the Preseason... comparatively speaking. I'm giving Carr the first 8 games out of respect.

I'm saying we can't be worse than 2-14 if we start Vince Week 1

Nighthawk
01-09-2006, 05:23 PM
you don't draft a guy based on where he was from.

You don't. It doesn't happen. I am surprised that you of all people on this board would pitch such a fit about drafting Vince because he's a hometown guy.

The Young-haters are out in full force and, in the immortal words of somebody, they "just don't get it."

It's not about Young being a home town guy, it's about him being an amazing athlete and quarterback who is BETTER RIGHT NOW, coming out of college, than Carr is after four years in the league.

Sure, if we had Peyton Manning or one of the other top flight QBs in the league then we probably would not want to draft Young. We'd feel bad to lose him but we'd be satisfied that we had our QB. As it is we've got David Carr. I mean, c'mon guys, he's really not such a good QB, and even if he had a great team around him he'd probably only manage to be mid-pack. He's four years in and has shown next to nothing.

So that's the core of the problem: we have a not so good QB in hand and there's another superstar QB suddenly available to us. Nobody thought Young was coming out this year. If they had, the board would have been clamoring for him all along. The interest in Bush only developed against the context of Vince Young staying in school.

So now, suddenly, everything is different. All the calculations have to be redone. We have to think again, as a team, whether we want to draft a 15-20 touches-per-game part-time running back who clearly can't play against speed and who is small by NFL standards in the first place, or an eventual on field leader who wins the games one way or the other, a big, strong, fast, smart guy who snaps the ball to his receivers, is uncannily accurate for having such an odd throwing motion, is tall enough (maybe?) to get away with that motion at the next level, and can run pretty well to boot. I don't see Vince Young as a Michael Vick guy, but more as a polished bigger and faster Randall Cunningham, or Brett Favre type.

For my money you build with strength and while Bush would be a very nice addition to the team, he's not a central building block of any team.

GoneTexan
01-09-2006, 05:30 PM
" I can tell you two things that will be absolute, indisputable facts:

1. David Carr (or Vince Young) will be dead.
2. There won't be very many people left waiting at that point.

Iíll be your Huckleberry! Most of all Iíll still be a Houston Texan fan! Iím here to support the organization (even if it takes a long, long time) unless the owner becomes a Jerry Jones.
Go Texans! :redtowel:

zeplin
01-09-2006, 05:31 PM
I did not see anything but highlights from either of those two games, so forgive me if I am understating his abilities.

Either way, the point is that we do not draft a player based on where he is from.

Put a sock in it, already. If we draft Vince, it will be because management feels he is the best player for this franchise, in terms of his ability to lead our team to wins. Not because his grandma and all the Longhorns around here can come to all the games.

I have made no small secret of the fact that I believe he is not the best player for this franchise, but if we are going to talk about drafting him, let's do it on the basis of his skills: not what high school he went to.

That is exactly correct. It has nothing to do with his city affiliation. VY is a great talent and so is Reggie bush but the fact is the Texans have a good RB and QB. Their needs are in other areas. Both of these players could be great or they could e busts. That is something we will find out in the future.
I just want people to realize that these are not sure things.:homer:

The Dream
01-09-2006, 05:43 PM
Doubtful. How many SB rings do you have?


Dude stop living in the past, CC has done a overall bad job as GM of this team, I know it, you know it, and I'm sure he probably knows it also......the guy on 610 broke it down best this morning when he named all the things that CC has missed on.

thunderkyss
01-09-2006, 05:51 PM
That is exactly correct. It has nothing to do with his city affiliation. VY is a great talent and so is Reggie bush but the fact is the Texans have a good RB and QB. Their needs are in other areas. Both of these players could be great or they could e busts. That is something we will find out in the future.
I just want people to realize that these are not sure things.:homer:


I honestly don't see how any one can think we wouldn't win more games just by adding Vince Young next year. If everything else stays the same, Vince Young will win us more games. Put Bush on this team, would we have one more games??

I really like Carr, I don't believe he has been in a good situation. I think he could very well go on to be a ProBowler......... Letting Him go, with only Tony Banks to fill the spot........ you better believer there'd be trouble in H-Town.

We've got a lot of money invested in Carr, no doubt.... and I like the kid, but I don't want to give him any more money than we have to. Let him be a free agent... if He can get a better deal than the Texans are willing to offer, then fine. Now I mean to put a decent offer on the table, I want to keep him. I want to start him........ but I don't want to pay him anymore, than his fair market value...... Will anyone give us a first round pick for David Carr?? Would ou give up a first round pick for Manning?? Brady?? McNabb?? Vick??(I wouldn't for Vick, but I bet someone would)

axman40
01-09-2006, 07:09 PM
I said, and I repeat: argue for Vince on the basis of football, not on hometown status.

http://media.putfile.com/Vince-Young-05-Highlights
Enjoy the show and picture#10 In Texan gear!
:cool:

Kaiser Toro
01-09-2006, 07:40 PM
Washington State head coach Bill Doba:
"If you've got a linebacker covering him, you might as well start singing their fight song."


USC Heisman Trophy-winning quarterback Matt Leinart:
"Every time Reggie touches the ball, anything can happen...He's an awesome weapon...A lot of people think he's an outside runner, but he's tough. He can run in between the tackles...When he first came to USC, he was running all over our first defense in fall camp, cutting back, reversing his field. We knew he was special. Anytime he has the ball, something big could happen. It's unbelievable what he can do."


Former USC All-American defensive end Kenechi Udeze:
"He's fun to watch. I remember his first day of practice, he must have run a circle around the whole defense and sprinted for a touchdown. Then to see it happen in the games was really funny."


Former USC All-American wide receiver Mike Williams:
"Reggie's the ultimate weapon."


Former USC center Norm Katnik:
"He's a special guy. He can shake people like no other. I almost tackled him two times myself. He has the ability to make people miss." USC athletic director and 1965 Heisman Trophy-winning tailback Mike Garrett: "He's going to be one of the best ever. He looks like another Gale Sayers."


USC head coach Pete Carroll:
"I told him, 'You're the most valuable guy on the field for what you're creating by your presence.'...The overriding element of his game is he's just got such fantastic hands. You can look at the speed and all the rest, but few guys catch the ball so well. I'm talking about anybody, not just running backs."


Ivan Maisel, ESPN.com:
"He releases adrenaline in every bloodstream the minute he touches the ball."


Gene Wojciechowski, ESPN.com:
"He's a human highlight tape."


Steve Bisheff, Orange County Register:
"Bush is definitely the most exciting player in college football. Bush with the football in an open space is like Barry Bonds at the plate with the bases loaded. Immediately, your senses heighten. Your pulse races. Your eyes refuse to look anywhere else...No one in college football has anyone like him. No one else is even close...The Trojans' flashy hummingbird of an all-purpose player is an amalgam of all the great USC backs through the years."


Steve Kelley, Seattle Times:
"Bush is one-of-a-kind. So good, so versatile, USC's coaching staff is just beginning to see all the ways he can be used. When he touches the ball, defensive coordinators hold their breath. Every play called for him can be a game-breaker. Every touch can be something you'll never forget...Bush zig-zags through defenses as if he has a sixth sense for the location of the next sliver of daylight. He cuts as sharply as a Ferrari in a chicane. He shimmies like a dancer in a music video. A football field is 53 yards wide, and there are plays where Reggie Bush seems to use every inch from sideline to sideline...'The President' is carving exquisite, artful-dodger runs through desperately grasping and gasping defenses. Re-awakening the echoes of all the great Trojan tailbacks who preceded him. Hail to the Chief."


Dennis Dodd, CBS Sportsline.com:
"They call him "The President." They might soon be calling him The King...He is that rare back with the speed and strength to run through the line and the ability to make defenders miss in space when he goes out for a pass...He is a symbol for what USC was, is and will be."


Randy Youngman, Orange County Register:
"Even if he got to carry or catch the ball on every down, I would never get tired of watching Reggie Bush, USC's electrifying running back. Bush has so many open-field moves, he's more elusive than 'The Fugitive.' Now you see him, now you don't...touchdown, Trojans!"


Arash Markazi, Daily Trojan:
"Reggie Bush looks like a creation from a video game-an almost unreal character created by a kid who finds all the secret codes to make his player faster, quicker and better than everyone else on the field...He always makes the impossible seem possible. The scary thing for USC's opponents is that this creation isn't imaginary. He's not from a video game. He's a living, breathing human joystick who terrorizes defenses with his blinding speed and ankle-breaking shimmies...His speed borders on blinding and his knack for eluding defenders borders on ridiculous."


Former Washington head coach Keith Gilbertson:
"I don't care what formation they're in, you better know where No. 5 is, OK? End of story."


Virginia Teach head coach Frank Beamer:
"If he could throw, he'd be Michael Vick." California head coach Jeff Tedford: "If he's not the best player in the country, he's one of the top, no question...He is so talented than any one-on-one situation, he's going to win. You have to pay attention to where he is."


Former Oregon State quarterback Derek Anderson:
"The kid is unbelievable. I've never seen anything like it, in the NFL or wherever."


Former Stanford head coach Buddy Teevens:
"You can't really stop Bush, to be perfectly honest. He's in a class by himself."


Former Stanford assistant coach Tom Williams:
"He is the most versatile player in the country and, in my opinion, he's the best player in the country."


Arizona State head coach Dirk Koetter:
"He can do it all. Every time he touches the ball, you hold your breath."


Former BYU head coach Gary Crowton:
"He's as good as any receiver on their team, and the next moment, he's running with power, makes one guy miss and he's so fast he can go the distance. He just has the ability to create lots of matchup problems without them changing personnel groups. That's a real luxury they have. It kind of reminds me of Marshall Faulk."


Colorado State head coach Sonny Lubick:
"The thing that makes him so darned good is he's such a confident young guy and he's never out of the play, no matter how bleak it looks, no matter how much you have him surrounded."


Kirk Herbstreit, ESPN:
"The most explosive player in college football is Reggie Bush. The best player in the country wears No. 5 for USC. If you get a chance, check him out. Reggie Bush...He's the most electrifying player in college football. Every time he touches the ball, he can score."


Bud Withers, Seattle Times:
"There is little doubt that Bush is the most dynamic player in the nation. He may not win the Heisman Trophy, but voters ought to think long and hard if defenders' broken ankles, Bush's gasp-inducing cuts and spinning, serpentine dashes matter."


Ted Miller, ESPN.com:
"Bush is Shakespeare. He's gifted with speedy brilliance and flourish. Bush is 200 pounds of sound and fury signifying touchdown. He doth rise from the ground like feathered Mercury striding the heavens...He resembles the elusive Gale Sayers or the versatile Marshall Faulk."


David Leon Moore, USA Today:
"Bush is basically a sworn enemy of a straight line. He's all switchbacks and zigzags, spin moves and ankle-breaking shimmies. Some people even think he is already the most entertaining, and maybe best, college football player in the country...He is a quiet sort, polite, humble, good grades, solid citizen...On a football field, he gets around like nobody else. Here, there, this sideline, that end zone, he's running, receiving, returning, making plays, scoring touchdowns, winning games...He runs with a can't-take-your-eyes-off-him style that seems part Marshall Faulk, part Barry Sanders, part Gale Sayers."


Nick Canepa, San Diego Union-Tribune:
"Bush, who runs like a witch flies, has developed into the most dangerous player in the country."


Jeff Miller, Orange County Register:
"What defenders see are hips and elbows and ankles and forearms and shoe bottoms, all of it twisting and spinning until what remains is a trail of vapor and shadows and empty-armed opponents...USC uses him to create Maalox matchups for the opposition. When Bush is positioned anywhere but the backfield, 10 defenders can be seen pointing and waving, motioning as to his whereabouts."


USC tailback LenDale White:
"He's smooth. He's got mad, crazy speed...If Reggie's not the best there is, he's one of the best. He opens this offense up so much just by being there." Former USC All-American defensive lineman Shaun Cody: "Practicing against him was great training for us. You want to improve your quickness, try chasing a rabbit around."


Former USC tight end Alex Holmes:
"When he's in, you heard linebackers screaming every time. They were all shouting about 'No. 5.' Reggie is a guy who literally changes the game just by being out there."


Former USC All-American linebacker Lofa Tatupu:
"We just sat back on Saturday and watched the show...Not to take credit away from the offensive line because they've done a great job, but Reggie sets up his blocks so well that they can miss their man completely and he still gets through...I've even told guys on the other team, 'Don't feel bad. He got me with that play twice this week in practice, too.'"


Former USC cornerback Kevin Arbet:
"He's the best player I've ever played with or against. When he's running an option route against you, you just have to guess. It's impossible."


Patrick Kinmartin, Daily Trojan:
"His combination of track-sprinter speed and music-video shiftiness makes him a one-man show."


Dan Weber, Riverside Press-Telegram:
"Bush awes his teammates daily with his ability to get to full speed on his second step."


Todd Harmonson, Orange County Register:
"Bush is a highlight-show fixture with physiology-defying, did-he-do-that moves. The easy comparison is to Marshall Faulk because of the similarity in all-around games, but those who saw Gale Sayers recognize the speed, spins and spellbinding cuts...He is a speed demon who sees Christmas morning when a linebacker tries to defend him and a winnable challenge when a quick corner draws the assignment...Off the field, Bush is a quiet leader who is on track to graduate in 3 Ĺ years."


Phil Collin, South Bay Daily Breeze:
"Around USC now, they're simply wondering what Reggie will come up with next. The thing is, they know it's coming. Opponents do too...As brilliant as he can be on the football field, Bush is simply that humble off of it. He smiles sheepishly at the mention of his nickname, 'The President.'"


Gary Klein, Los Angeles Times:
"Keith Gilbertson half-jokingly labeled the situation unfair. Bill Doba called the potential problems monstrous. Mike Riley found only one word to describe it-horrible. That's what these Pac-10 coaches said when asked to assess difficulties created for defenses when Reggie Bush lines up as a receiver."


Michael Ventre, MSNBC.com:
"Bush is young and multi-talented. He's a running back. He's a receiver. He's a kick returner. He's a punt returner. He's even a passer. If you try to pigeonhole him, you'd better have lots of pigeonholes...Bush can stop on a dime, give you nine cents change, then blow past you before you can bend to pick it up...When it comes to pure, all-around, pound-for-pound value from a college football player, it's hard to beat what Bush brings to the table...He's a genuine once-in-a-generation player...And he's a good kid-smart, down to earth, respectful of others yet supremely confident...He has turned a run-of-the-mill punt return into an event. He causes teams to kick away from him on kickoffs. When he comes into the game, defenders cast desperate looks at their sideline for advice."

As I was reading this I expected the Academy Awards acceptance speech music to come through my computer or if you prefer Chappelle, "Wrap it up G, you know what the music means." :)

aj.
01-09-2006, 08:09 PM
My yahoo email account exploded into a million pieces today but it's been about 12:1 in favor of the article. Those who oppose have been extremely rude -- they think I'm the anti-christ or a UT homer or something, or they're Ags -- but it humors me ... in fact, I've spent most of the last three hours laughing my *** off at the responses. It's good 2-14 offseason therapy (or 18-46 if you're on the four year plan)

I have responded to every one of those vile and obnoxious emails I have received with the same message: I'm a University of Houston graduate who roots for the Ags when they play the 'horns, and while I may be wrong, I think Vince Young is going to be a special NFL talent, better than David Carr or Reggie Bush when they close the books on their respective careers.

Glad I could help 'facilitate' the debate :rolleyes:

Texans86
01-09-2006, 09:53 PM
Most of you who recognize my name know that I am against both drafting Bush or Young. Since this thread is about Young, I'll discuss Young. I am amazed at the number of people who have watched Vince Young in his college career and still think he is the ultimate quarterback. I do not deny his physical talents and many of his "intangables" that led the University of Texas to it's first National Championship in 36 years. However, many of you blanket his skills as amazing and do not list any of his flaws. Many of you have noticed that Bush only carried the ball more than 20 times twice this season, and therefore has the possibility that he might not be durable enough for the NFL. Also, he is not the type of back that will go between the tackles. Both are very good arguements to not draft Reggie Bush with the first pick. Unfortunately, I have not seen many people note any of Vince's weaknesses. If they have, they are not as prevelent as Bush's detractors. This surprises me because I respect many of the posters on this board, and realize they know more about football than I do. As a student at UT, I have had the opportunity to watch Vince regularly, and I have seen many of his superhuman heroics to win games.
Since many people have the best recollection of this past week's game, I will use examples from that game. Vince Young completed many passes this year, as shown by his NCAA leading passer efficiency rating. That is good, however many of his throws did not hit his recievers in stride, leaving them to get hit. They did get the yardage, which is great, but many of those passes could have gone for many more yards with the athleticism of his recievers. Also, Young has a little trouble throwing far downfield. He has an above average arm, and as I have seen overthrows wide open recievers. As for his scrambling ability, he is amazing once out of the pocket, and defenses do have to pay special attention to his unique combination of size and speed. As some of you may remember from the game, the announcers said that Texas had over 30 fumbles this season, but luckily recovered most of them. I realize most of them are not Young's fault, but some of them were. Once Young is outside of the pocket, and past the line of scrimage, he continues to hold the ball in his passing hand out in the open. Rarely have I seen him put the ball in his arm to hold it better, and never have I seen him actually go into a hit with both arms over the ball. Many times this season have I had to hold my breath because the ball was easily hit out of his hand, and I had to wait to see who recovered it.
I will conclude by saying Vince is an amazing athlete, but his flaws should not be overlooked. Some of them will need work when he gets to the NFL level, or he will not succeed. Finally, I do not believe that the Texans will be worse by drafting Vince Young, I just believe there are better and more efficient ways to make our team better. We're all on the same team.

kbourda
01-09-2006, 10:43 PM
Washington State head coach Bill Doba:
"If you've got a linebacker covering him, you might as well start singing their fight song."


USC Heisman Trophy-winning quarterback Matt Leinart:
"Every time Reggie touches the ball, anything can happen...He's an awesome weapon...A lot of people think he's an outside runner, but he's tough. He can run in between the tackles...When he first came to USC, he was running all over our first defense in fall camp, cutting back, reversing his field. We knew he was special. Anytime he has the ball, something big could happen. It's unbelievable what he can do."


Former USC All-American defensive end Kenechi Udeze:
"He's fun to watch. I remember his first day of practice, he must have run a circle around the whole defense and sprinted for a touchdown. Then to see it happen in the games was really funny."


Former USC All-American wide receiver Mike Williams:
"Reggie's the ultimate weapon."


Former USC center Norm Katnik:
"He's a special guy. He can shake people like no other. I almost tackled him two times myself. He has the ability to make people miss." USC athletic director and 1965 Heisman Trophy-winning tailback Mike Garrett: "He's going to be one of the best ever. He looks like another Gale Sayers."


USC head coach Pete Carroll:
"I told him, 'You're the most valuable guy on the field for what you're creating by your presence.'...The overriding element of his game is he's just got such fantastic hands. You can look at the speed and all the rest, but few guys catch the ball so well. I'm talking about anybody, not just running backs."


Ivan Maisel, ESPN.com:
"He releases adrenaline in every bloodstream the minute he touches the ball."


Gene Wojciechowski, ESPN.com:
"He's a human highlight tape."


Steve Bisheff, Orange County Register:
"Bush is definitely the most exciting player in college football. Bush with the football in an open space is like Barry Bonds at the plate with the bases loaded. Immediately, your senses heighten. Your pulse races. Your eyes refuse to look anywhere else...No one in college football has anyone like him. No one else is even close...The Trojans' flashy hummingbird of an all-purpose player is an amalgam of all the great USC backs through the years."


Steve Kelley, Seattle Times:
"Bush is one-of-a-kind. So good, so versatile, USC's coaching staff is just beginning to see all the ways he can be used. When he touches the ball, defensive coordinators hold their breath. Every play called for him can be a game-breaker. Every touch can be something you'll never forget...Bush zig-zags through defenses as if he has a sixth sense for the location of the next sliver of daylight. He cuts as sharply as a Ferrari in a chicane. He shimmies like a dancer in a music video. A football field is 53 yards wide, and there are plays where Reggie Bush seems to use every inch from sideline to sideline...'The President' is carving exquisite, artful-dodger runs through desperately grasping and gasping defenses. Re-awakening the echoes of all the great Trojan tailbacks who preceded him. Hail to the Chief."


Dennis Dodd, CBS Sportsline.com:
"They call him "The President." They might soon be calling him The King...He is that rare back with the speed and strength to run through the line and the ability to make defenders miss in space when he goes out for a pass...He is a symbol for what USC was, is and will be."


Randy Youngman, Orange County Register:
"Even if he got to carry or catch the ball on every down, I would never get tired of watching Reggie Bush, USC's electrifying running back. Bush has so many open-field moves, he's more elusive than 'The Fugitive.' Now you see him, now you don't...touchdown, Trojans!"


Arash Markazi, Daily Trojan:
"Reggie Bush looks like a creation from a video game-an almost unreal character created by a kid who finds all the secret codes to make his player faster, quicker and better than everyone else on the field...He always makes the impossible seem possible. The scary thing for USC's opponents is that this creation isn't imaginary. He's not from a video game. He's a living, breathing human joystick who terrorizes defenses with his blinding speed and ankle-breaking shimmies...His speed borders on blinding and his knack for eluding defenders borders on ridiculous."


Former Washington head coach Keith Gilbertson:
"I don't care what formation they're in, you better know where No. 5 is, OK? End of story."


Virginia Teach head coach Frank Beamer:
"If he could throw, he'd be Michael Vick." California head coach Jeff Tedford: "If he's not the best player in the country, he's one of the top, no question...He is so talented than any one-on-one situation, he's going to win. You have to pay attention to where he is."


Former Oregon State quarterback Derek Anderson:
"The kid is unbelievable. I've never seen anything like it, in the NFL or wherever."


Former Stanford head coach Buddy Teevens:
"You can't really stop Bush, to be perfectly honest. He's in a class by himself."


Former Stanford assistant coach Tom Williams:
"He is the most versatile player in the country and, in my opinion, he's the best player in the country."


Arizona State head coach Dirk Koetter:
"He can do it all. Every time he touches the ball, you hold your breath."


Former BYU head coach Gary Crowton:
"He's as good as any receiver on their team, and the next moment, he's running with power, makes one guy miss and he's so fast he can go the distance. He just has the ability to create lots of matchup problems without them changing personnel groups. That's a real luxury they have. It kind of reminds me of Marshall Faulk."


Colorado State head coach Sonny Lubick:
"The thing that makes him so darned good is he's such a confident young guy and he's never out of the play, no matter how bleak it looks, no matter how much you have him surrounded."


Kirk Herbstreit, ESPN:
"The most explosive player in college football is Reggie Bush. The best player in the country wears No. 5 for USC. If you get a chance, check him out. Reggie Bush...He's the most electrifying player in college football. Every time he touches the ball, he can score."


Bud Withers, Seattle Times:
"There is little doubt that Bush is the most dynamic player in the nation. He may not win the Heisman Trophy, but voters ought to think long and hard if defenders' broken ankles, Bush's gasp-inducing cuts and spinning, serpentine dashes matter."


Ted Miller, ESPN.com:
"Bush is Shakespeare. He's gifted with speedy brilliance and flourish. Bush is 200 pounds of sound and fury signifying touchdown. He doth rise from the ground like feathered Mercury striding the heavens...He resembles the elusive Gale Sayers or the versatile Marshall Faulk."


David Leon Moore, USA Today:
"Bush is basically a sworn enemy of a straight line. He's all switchbacks and zigzags, spin moves and ankle-breaking shimmies. Some people even think he is already the most entertaining, and maybe best, college football player in the country...He is a quiet sort, polite, humble, good grades, solid citizen...On a football field, he gets around like nobody else. Here, there, this sideline, that end zone, he's running, receiving, returning, making plays, scoring touchdowns, winning games...He runs with a can't-take-your-eyes-off-him style that seems part Marshall Faulk, part Barry Sanders, part Gale Sayers."


Nick Canepa, San Diego Union-Tribune:
"Bush, who runs like a witch flies, has developed into the most dangerous player in the country."


Jeff Miller, Orange County Register:
"What defenders see are hips and elbows and ankles and forearms and shoe bottoms, all of it twisting and spinning until what remains is a trail of vapor and shadows and empty-armed opponents...USC uses him to create Maalox matchups for the opposition. When Bush is positioned anywhere but the backfield, 10 defenders can be seen pointing and waving, motioning as to his whereabouts."


USC tailback LenDale White:
"He's smooth. He's got mad, crazy speed...If Reggie's not the best there is, he's one of the best. He opens this offense up so much just by being there." Former USC All-American defensive lineman Shaun Cody: "Practicing against him was great training for us. You want to improve your quickness, try chasing a rabbit around."


Former USC tight end Alex Holmes:
"When he's in, you heard linebackers screaming every time. They were all shouting about 'No. 5.' Reggie is a guy who literally changes the game just by being out there."


Former USC All-American linebacker Lofa Tatupu:
"We just sat back on Saturday and watched the show...Not to take credit away from the offensive line because they've done a great job, but Reggie sets up his blocks so well that they can miss their man completely and he still gets through...I've even told guys on the other team, 'Don't feel bad. He got me with that play twice this week in practice, too.'"


Former USC cornerback Kevin Arbet:
"He's the best player I've ever played with or against. When he's running an option route against you, you just have to guess. It's impossible."


Patrick Kinmartin, Daily Trojan:
"His combination of track-sprinter speed and music-video shiftiness makes him a one-man show."


Dan Weber, Riverside Press-Telegram:
"Bush awes his teammates daily with his ability to get to full speed on his second step."


Todd Harmonson, Orange County Register:
"Bush is a highlight-show fixture with physiology-defying, did-he-do-that moves. The easy comparison is to Marshall Faulk because of the similarity in all-around games, but those who saw Gale Sayers recognize the speed, spins and spellbinding cuts...He is a speed demon who sees Christmas morning when a linebacker tries to defend him and a winnable challenge when a quick corner draws the assignment...Off the field, Bush is a quiet leader who is on track to graduate in 3 Ĺ years."


Phil Collin, South Bay Daily Breeze:
"Around USC now, they're simply wondering what Reggie will come up with next. The thing is, they know it's coming. Opponents do too...As brilliant as he can be on the football field, Bush is simply that humble off of it. He smiles sheepishly at the mention of his nickname, 'The President.'"


Gary Klein, Los Angeles Times:
"Keith Gilbertson half-jokingly labeled the situation unfair. Bill Doba called the potential problems monstrous. Mike Riley found only one word to describe it-horrible. That's what these Pac-10 coaches said when asked to assess difficulties created for defenses when Reggie Bush lines up as a receiver."


Michael Ventre, MSNBC.com:
"Bush is young and multi-talented. He's a running back. He's a receiver. He's a kick returner. He's a punt returner. He's even a passer. If you try to pigeonhole him, you'd better have lots of pigeonholes...Bush can stop on a dime, give you nine cents change, then blow past you before you can bend to pick it up...When it comes to pure, all-around, pound-for-pound value from a college football player, it's hard to beat what Bush brings to the table...He's a genuine once-in-a-generation player...And he's a good kid-smart, down to earth, respectful of others yet supremely confident...He has turned a run-of-the-mill punt return into an event. He causes teams to kick away from him on kickoffs. When he comes into the game, defenders cast desperate looks at their sideline for advice."

All this praise and yet he wasn't on the field to get the greatest team of all time 2 yards to seal the deal for a Rose Bowl win. Nuff said!

kbourda
01-09-2006, 10:45 PM
Unfortunately, so Does Carr...!

LMAO

Hookem Horns
01-09-2006, 10:56 PM
So you like the flavor of 18-46? Hmm Interesting, are you part of Casserly's camp?:hmmm:

Ok, next season look forward to being 18-62..:ok:

Maybe he thinks 18-46 is ok just as long as we "play well".

michaelm
01-11-2006, 12:10 AM
...


No quote, man...

That avitar is just freakin' funny as all get out!!! Nice job!

Hervoyel
01-11-2006, 08:32 AM
All this praise and yet he wasn't on the field to get the greatest team of all time 2 yards to seal the deal for a Rose Bowl win. Nuff said!

I simply don't understand your reasoning here. The Trojans have two good running backs who they use very differently. You're going to blame Bush because Carroll decided to go to the well once too often with White? You're going to discount what all these people say over a play where the man wasn't even on the field? I just don't understand that. Sure you can blame him for things he did or things he failed to do all day long but how can you knock him for something he didn't even have the opportunity to do?

Do you write "CARR MUST GO!" posts on days that the defense blows a lead?

BigWig
01-11-2006, 10:36 AM
I am going to go on record as to say " I have never been a homer towards the Longhorns even though I live in Austin".
I would also like to say " I have never been a VY believer or homer".
But after watching the Rose Bowl with a Ohio State homer I somehow have been convinced VY is the man for us!
One word................ LEADERSHIP........................................ .................!

thunderkyss
01-11-2006, 12:13 PM
I simply don't understand your reasoning here. The Trojans have two good running backs who they use very differently. You're going to blame Bush because Carroll decided to go to the well once too often with White? You're going to discount what all these people say over a play where the man wasn't even on the field? I just don't understand that. Sure you can blame him for things he did or things he failed to do all day long but how can you knock him for something he didn't even have the opportunity to do?

Do you write "CARR MUST GO!" posts on days that the defense blows a lead?

Do you think they would have gone for it without Leinart?? The team that has Reggie Right now, doesn't put him on the field, when they need 2 yards..... If that doesn't tell you something.....

I'm saying, if you need to win, put the ball in Vince's hands. You can count on him for 13 games a year. You'd think the call would go to your best player in the Biggest game of the year. Pete Caroll, the man who's been watching Bush for three years, didn't think enough of him to even put him on the field. Not to mention that REggie's lateral cost them that game.

Errant Hothy
01-11-2006, 12:16 PM
Do you think they would have gone for it without Leinart?? The team that has Reggie Right now, doesn't put him on the field, when they need 2 yards..... If that doesn't tell you something.....

I'm saying, if you need to win, put the ball in Vince's hands. You can count on him for 13 games a year. You'd think the call would go to your best player in the Biggest game of the year. Pete Caroll, the man who's been watching Bush for three years, didn't think enough of him to even put him on the field. Not to mention that REggie's lateral cost them that game.

And VY's lateral was...only good due to a technical malfunction in the relpay booth. Both lateral's were bad calls, one player got lucky one did not.

As for Reggie not being on the feild for the 4th and 2; how is that his fault?

tulexan
01-11-2006, 12:17 PM
Do you think they would have gone for it without Leinart?? The team that has Reggie Right now, doesn't put him on the field, when they need 2 yards..... If that doesn't tell you something.....

I'm saying, if you need to win, put the ball in Vince's hands. You can count on him for 13 games a year. You'd think the call would go to your best player in the Biggest game of the year. Pete Caroll, the man who's been watching Bush for three years, didn't think enough of him to even put him on the field. Not to mention that REggie's lateral cost them that game.


It tells me that Pete Carroll is a bonehead. Everyone criticizes Carroll for not at least having Bush on the field as a decoy for that fourth down play. He was over confident in that game and when it looked like he was going to lose he panicked and called an unneccessary timeout.

Jack Bauer
01-11-2006, 12:18 PM
Do you think they would have gone for it without Leinart?? The team that has Reggie Right now, doesn't put him on the field, when they need 2 yards..... If that doesn't tell you something.....

I'm saying, if you need to win, put the ball in Vince's hands. You can count on him for 13 games a year. You'd think the call would go to your best player in the Biggest game of the year. Pete Caroll, the man who's been watching Bush for three years, didn't think enough of him to even put him on the field. Not to mention that REggie's lateral cost them that game.

USC doesn't have a QB on the same level as Leinart at that point. So the comparison is not accurate.

USC had Bush, White AND Leinart. Fact: USC had more offensive weapons than UT. I am not taking anything away from Young because he single-handedly beat USC's defense, but he HAD to. No one else was going to do it from UT.

BTW, I guess you were okay with Vince's lateral (his knee was down) because it worked?

This is apples and oranges. In summary: Vince is THE weapon for UT and USC had three.

NOTE: I almost feel I need to add a disclaimer to my signature. I am VERY high on Vince Young. I just think some of the arguments made against Bush are very weak.

Double Barrel
01-11-2006, 12:25 PM
NOTE: I almost feel I need to add a disclaimer to my signature. I am VERY high on Vince Young. I just think some of the arguments made against Bush are very weak.

I, for one, appreciate your candor and honesty. :thumbup I've got no problem with anyone taking a position of wanting a certain player. But supporting that position by belittling another player is a sign of a weak debater.

State your case and move on. There is no need to make foolish statements and look the part.

TheOgre
01-11-2006, 05:29 PM
I remember the tons of "Fire Palmer" threads floating around these boards over the last 3-4 years. It then became "Fire Capers" which transitioned into "Fire Casserly". With Palmer and Capers fired and Casserly a Lame Duck GM, it has transitioned to a sort of "Fire Carr" mentality. We haven't even seen what Carr can do in a "real" offensive scheme.

Look at the year that Favre has had with a horrible cast. Don't you think he would have done a lot better offensively with a healthy Ahman Green, Javon Walker, and Robert Ferguson? Now lets project that to Carr. Do you think he can do a lot better with a Reggie Bush, Jerome Mathis (#2 WR), a top rookie TE, a revamped O-line, and, hopefully, a much better scheme/coaching?

thunderkyss
01-11-2006, 05:31 PM
USC doesn't have a QB on the same level as Leinart at that point. So the comparison is not accurate.
So you're saying Ledale White is at Reggie's Level........ he'll more than likely won't go in the top ten.......... he'll probably be picked alot closer to where Bush ought to be. Thanks for helping me make my point.

USC had Bush, White AND Leinart. Fact: USC had more offensive weapons than UT. I am not taking anything away from Young because he single-handedly beat USC's defense, but he HAD to. No one else was going to do it from UT. So.... let's put Bush on our Roster to help resurrect our offense, but when USC needs 2 yards, they don't put the most explosive, dynamic offensive player since the beginning of time in the game at all...... How does it make sense to take him at #2, but the guy they did put in at #18??

BTW, I guess you were okay with Vince's lateral (his knee was down) because it worked? as long as it didn't lead to another turnover that changed the momentum of the game. But this is the way it is for playmakers. Things just work for them. It's not fair, and I don't like it.... but that's the way it is.

This is apples and oranges. In summary: Vince is THE weapon for UT and USC had three. I agree. when we say the Longhorns went undefeated this year, we mean Vince young went undefeated. So come draft day, You can either use one pick, and get Vince Young, or three picks and try to get Leinart, Lendale White, and Reggie Bush..... in that order.

NOTE: I almost feel I need to add a disclaimer to my signature. I am VERY high on Vince Young. I just think some of the arguments made against Bush are very weak.
I must admit, I bought into the Reggie Bush hype.... he's an explosive player, and is going to go far in the NFL... But it never made sense to me, to use our #1 to pick up Bush. From where I sit, any argument in Favor of Drafting Bush is weak. If we are going to try to Draft one player, to change the W/L column, wouldn't it make sense to pick the only player in NCAA history to go undefeated??

thunderkyss
01-11-2006, 05:36 PM
I remember the tons of "Fire Palmer" threads floating around these boards over the last 3-4 years. It then became "Fire Capers" which transitioned into "Fire Casserly". With Palmer and Capers fired and Casserly a Lame Duck GM, it has transitioned to a sort of "Fire Carr" mentality. We haven't even seen what Carr can do in a "real" offensive scheme.

Look at the year that Favre has had with a horrible cast. Don't you think he would have done a lot better offensively with a healthy Ahman Green, Javon Walker, and Robert Ferguson? Now lets project that to Carr. Do you think he can do a lot better with a Reggie Bush, Jerome Mathis (#2 WR), a top rookie TE, a revamped O-line, and, hopefully, a much better scheme/coaching?


It's not about this year. IT's about the last 4...... I honestly like Carr I honestly think he'll go on to do great things. If he gets on a better team, he may even start chasing records other than Most Sacks of All Time as a Quarterback. I have thought for a long time, it would be best for him to move on. It is only now, that I honestly think it would be the best move, on both sides. If we just let him go, that will be unfair. Give him time next year, to boost his value.

Jack Bauer
01-11-2006, 05:36 PM
So you're saying Ledale White is at Reggie's Level........ he'll more than likely won't go in the top ten.......... he'll probably be picked alot closer to where Bush ought to be. Thanks for helping me make my point.

Yes, they are both elite college backs(HENCE the word LEVEL). I didn't say one was better than the other.

tulexan
01-11-2006, 05:38 PM
What are you talking about? Vince Young isn't the only player in NCAA history to go undefeated.

Alex Smith was the only really good player on Utah last year and he was undefeated.

And how does Pete Carroll being a complete moron and having Reggie Bush on the sidelines mean that Reggie isn't a great player?

Grid
01-11-2006, 05:46 PM
So you're saying Ledale White is at Reggie's Level........ he'll more than likely won't go in the top ten.......... he'll probably be picked alot closer to where Bush ought to be. Thanks for helping me make my point.

LenDale White benefited from having Lienart and Bush working with him. It made White look better, since he was considered the lesser of 3 evils.. to the defenses they played anyway. Though having Lendale running up the middle did help open up things for Bush and Lienart as well. Would I say that LenDale is as big a talent as Bush? No.. I think Bush athleticism and versatility makes him alot more valuable of a prospect. But Lendale COULD go in the top 10 still..just because he looks like a real talented north/south runner.

So.... let's put Bush on our Roster to help resurrect our offense, but when USC needs 2 yards, they don't put the most explosive, dynamic offensive player since the beginning of time in the game at all...... How does it make sense to take him at #2, but the guy they did put in at #18??

They did what worked for them. We could have similar success with Carr, DD, and Bush. or throw in Wells in there. Dont forget that the season before last.. DD was a real playmaker in the red zone. USC played to their strengths.. Bush isnt a power runner.. he is speed and finesse.. which made him less of a sure thing when you needed 2 yards.

long as it didn't lead to another turnover that changed the momentum of the game. But this is the way it is for playmakers. Things just work for them. It's not fair, and I don't like it.... but that's the way it is.

Hah... Bush made a mistake with his lateral.. big deal.. he wont make that mistake in the NFL. Look at the kind of yardage he picked up with that little dump off pass though? if he had taken the tackle instead of lateraling.. would we even be talking about VY right now? As for VYs lateral being the signature of a playmaker... whatever.. it was a missed call, not the playmaker "aura" of VY. It would have been challenged and overturned in the NFL.

I agree. when we say the Longhorns went undefeated this year, we mean Vince young went undefeated. So come draft day, You can either use one pick, and get Vince Young, or three picks and try to get Leinart, Lendale White, and Reggie Bush..... in that order.

We already have White (DD/Wells) and Lienart (Carr).. we just dont have Bush (Hollings). What we dont need is to completely rebuild our offense to bring in VY. And when you talk about UT going undefeated.. you should be talking about VY and every player on his defense...cause that is what won the games. It wasnt VY by himself. Give Texas the USC defense and they wouldnt have even been in the rose bowl.


I must admit, I bought into the Reggie Bush hype.... he's an explosive player, and is going to go far in the NFL... But it never made sense to me, to use our #1 to pick up Bush. From where I sit, any argument in Favor of Drafting Bush is weak. If we are going to try to Draft one player, to change the W/L column, wouldn't it make sense to pick the only player in NCAA history to go undefeated??

huh? VY is 30-2 isnt he? Only player in history to go undefeated? are you sure on that? and actually.. coming into that game.. didnt USC have like a 32 or 36 game winning streak, to Texas' 19?

tulexan
01-11-2006, 05:56 PM
USC under Matt Leinart went 37-2.

kbourda
01-11-2006, 08:39 PM
I simply don't understand your reasoning here. The Trojans have two good running backs who they use very differently. You're going to blame Bush because Carroll decided to go to the well once too often with White? You're going to discount what all these people say over a play where the man wasn't even on the field? I just don't understand that. Sure you can blame him for things he did or things he failed to do all day long but how can you knock him for something he didn't even have the opportunity to do?

Do you write "CARR MUST GO!" posts on days that the defense blows a lead?

As far as the posts about Carr goes, no. I might add my two cents to the matter though.:)

But my reasoning is simple. With all this praise and greatness bestowed upon Bush ( I think Mack Brown's mom even said Bush is the man *just kidding*) you would think his head coach would at least put him out there as a decoy. To me, him not being out there speaks volumes. Not to change sports but do you think Cassell would have hit the open three in MSG to clinch a game three win for the Rockets if Hakeem was on the bench?

TheOgre
01-12-2006, 09:55 AM
But my reasoning is simple. With all this praise and greatness bestowed upon Bush ( I think Mack Brown's mom even said Bush is the man *just kidding*) you would think his head coach would at least put him out there as a decoy. To me, him not being out there speaks volumes. Not to change sports but do you think Cassell would have hit the open three in MSG to clinch a game three win for the Rockets if Hakeem was on the bench?

You know, Barry Sanders was often not in the game for short yardage and 4th down plays? Do you think that "speaks volumes" about him?