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View Full Version : Switch to 4-3


YodAa
01-08-2006, 05:37 AM
Texans should switch to a 4-3 defense. If we hire Kubiak than there will be a strong chance that we will. In DEN his HC runs the 4-3 and is very successful with it. Our D as the 3-4 sucks! The biggest reason for it is because most of our guys are undersized and not playing their natural position. Look at the top 3 Ds in the NFL, all 4-3. Look at top 10, 70% of them run the 4-3. Out of this years 12 playoff teams 10 of them run the 4-3. Remember how the Falcons ran the 3-4 than went to 4-3 last year and almost got to the big game? Well you know... I'm just saying.

If we did make the switch than our D would look like this:
JBabin----------TJohnson----------GWalker/SPayne---------RSmith
-------Rookie-------------KWong/MGreenwood--------APeek
DRob---------Someone--------------Someone--------Faggins or someone

Even if it doesn't work what do we have to lose? But remember this years draft is crazy in depth! Most of these guys in any other year would be 1st or 2nd rounders

Grid
01-08-2006, 06:28 AM
I wouldnt be against changing to the 3-4.

However.. our OLBs are undersized for 4-3 DEs. And our DTs are, imo more suited for the 3-4. Im sure that is all debatable.

Fact of the matter though is that we have been drafting and signing players that fit the 3-4 defense. Some, or most of them may fit in a 4-3 scheme as well, but the players we have ARE fitting for the 3-4.

Also.. our 3-4 under fangio sucked.. but that was fangios fault. A more competent DC that lets our players work on instinct, instead of forcing them to overthink everything, will make a big difference in their production.

HJam72
01-08-2006, 09:24 AM
I hear ya, Grid, but I've always preferred the 4-3 and I think this is the time to switch to it.

LikeABoss
01-08-2006, 09:38 AM
The team should switch to a 4-3 IMO.

Babin probably would have more success if he goes back to being a left rush end with Peek, draftee, or free agent on the right side. Travis should go to the 3-tech, and Payne should play the NT. I think they should sign a free agent or draft some rookies to play the strong outside linebacker and right conerback position. Wong plays middle linebacker, and Greenwood moves back to outside linebacker. C.C. Brown goes to FS, and Earl mans the SS.

Wolf
01-08-2006, 09:46 AM
at this day and age, does anyone really play a true 3-4 or 4-3? players are bigger and faster theses days seems to be all a hybrid .. course I am no expert or DC


Do I sound like Fangio??:confused:

Kaiser Toro
01-08-2006, 09:58 AM
Texans should switch to a 4-3 defense. If we hire Kubiak than there will be a strong chance that we will. In DEN his HC runs the 4-3 and is very successful with it. Our D as the 3-4 sucks! The biggest reason for it is because most of our guys are undersized and not playing their natural position. Look at the top 3 Ds in the NFL, all 4-3. Look at top 10, 70% of them run the 4-3. Out of this years 12 playoff teams 10 of them run the 4-3. Remember how the Falcons ran the 3-4 than went to 4-3 last year and almost got to the big game? Well you know... I'm just saying.

If we did make the switch than our D would look like this:
JBabin----------TJohnson----------GWalker/SPayne---------RSmith
-------Rookie-------------KWong/MGreenwood--------APeek
DRob---------Someone--------------Someone--------Faggins or someone

Even if it doesn't work what do we have to lose? But remember this years draft is crazy in depth! Most of these guys in any other year would be 1st or 2nd rounders

By looking at this I would have to say not this year. With so many holes on our OLine and four positions open in your estimation on D, not to mention depth, we need to wait. I just do not think a change can be made until the initial investment on Payne and Walker is done.

bdiddy
01-08-2006, 10:47 AM
I am not opposed to switching to a 4-3, but I think some of your statements should be tempered.

Your assertion regarding that more teams running the 4-3 are in the top ten defenses is a little misleading. In general more teams run a 4-3, thus, making it almost impossible for 3-4 teams to dominate defensive statistics. I could make the statement more 4-3 teams are in the bottom ten defenses in the league and it would every bit as accurate. Numbers alone tell us little.

I do not think we are undersized to run the 3-4, however, our current personnel would be undersized to run the 4-3. Babin and Peek are on the small side for DEs. We have an oversupply of DTs and a lack of DEs, this will have to be addressed in the draft and FA to make the switch to the 4-3.

We have various holes at this point, all of which cannot be addressed this offseason. I believe with an offensive coach coming in the team will focus the upcoming draft on offensive talent. I think the current regime correctly believes that the offense has a lot of $$$ invested in it and can become much more effectively quickly. Look for a move into the top 10-15 in the league next year with the hiring of Kubiak, drafting of Bush, improvement of O-Line.

If we make the switch next year it will be done with very little new players with the exception of a draft pick spent on a DE/LB and some serviceable free agent signing. The 4-3 would not make a significant impact for another couple of years. This being said, I think if we switch schemes for next season the defense will improve because our young players are generally more comfortable playing in the 4-3. However, if a good DC comes in and runs a more adept version of the 3-4 geared toward our talent, I believe the defense has just as much a chance to improve.

The problem is not the 3-4, but the way the 3-4 was run. Capers/Fangio showed a commitment to running their scheme their way regardless of whether the scheme fit the personnel. What is needed is a defense that will utilize our personnels' strengths regardless of 4-3 or 3-4.

run-david-run
01-08-2006, 12:34 PM
Robaire Smith was a DT in the Titans 4-3, he would not be a DE. Walker might play Strong side end on first and second down with Babin on the other side. On passing situations, we bring Peek on the weak side DE and Babin on the strong side. We could also rotate Payne, Smith and TJ among the DT. Seeing as both Payne and Walker are old, this system could help them out. WE would then move Greenwood to OLB, and either put WOng in the middle and draft an OLB (DJ, damn it) or put Wong at LOLB and draft a MLB (Aaron Harris in the 4th round)

bdiddy
01-08-2006, 12:42 PM
Robaire Smith was a DT in the Titans 4-3, he would not be a DE. Walker might play Strong side end on first and second down with Babin on the other side. On passing situations, we bring Peek on the weak side DE and Babin on the strong side. We could also rotate Payne, Smith and TJ among the DT. Seeing as both Payne and Walker are old, this system could help them out. WE would then move Greenwood to OLB, and either put WOng in the middle and draft an OLB (DJ, damn it) or put Wong at LOLB and draft a MLB (Aaron Harris in the 4th round)

Holy Crap, someon who finally knows what the hell their talking about. I agree with your DL assessment, with the addition of trying to draft and/or sign a DE to compete against/spell walker. Robaire is not a DE. I think we need an MLB, Wong and Greenwood are best suited as OLBs in the 4-3 scheme. I would not be opposed to Aaron Harris, but he was consistently manhandled in the Rose Bowl (see, "Rondell White gets 10 yards up the middle"). I think he needs to work on his strength and getting off blocks before he is a candidate for a starting job in the NFL.

A Texan
01-08-2006, 12:53 PM
Robaire Smith was a DT in the Titans 4-3, he would not be a DE. Walker might play Strong side end on first and second down with Babin on the other side. On passing situations, we bring Peek on the weak side DE and Babin on the strong side. We could also rotate Payne, Smith and TJ among the DT. Seeing as both Payne and Walker are old, this system could help them out. WE would then move Greenwood to OLB, and either put WOng in the middle and draft an OLB (DJ, damn it) or put Wong at LOLB and draft a MLB (Aaron Harris in the 4th round)

Robaire worked in a 46 defense at nashville, not a 4-3. There's nothing wrong with a 3-4. The Oilers under Bum did a good job with it.

edo783
01-08-2006, 01:16 PM
Intersting thing is that if Jerry Grey comes as the DC (think it might happen) he said somewhere in the press interview thing that he is a proponet of the 4-3. This year might be a transition year...start playing more 4-3 and less 3-4 sets and then 07 be the switch as we get more 4-3 type talent.

HoustonFrog
01-08-2006, 01:29 PM
Many of the players have said that a 4-3 would fit their talents and that they all excelled in it in college and then were forced into unnatural positions in Vics 3-4.

royce1054
01-08-2006, 01:36 PM
well first of all the IMO 46 is the best D. Hard to pull gaurds with a man either a shade or a cover technique. 34 is next. and then 43. Plus i dont like our personel as previously stated by other people for the 43. We would have to overhaul our whole D for that to work. Then i noticed some of the names that were posted. Faggins is not a a #2 CB. We dont have a #2. i am sorry Pbuc is a #3 and i dont think he will become a #2 unless he learns to get his mind in the game and learn to tackle. DL has just been underachieveing. LB's same plus an injuryed Wong. I believe that 1 of 3 LB's babin, peek or Orr will not be back. We could take a LB in the 1st round esp if we sign some FA OL (thats a whole nother story). I just dont like this conversation til we hire a coach that says we are changing to the 43 then this becomes an excellent topic that all of us are jsut going to love but until then its just speculation.

texan279
01-08-2006, 01:39 PM
Texans should switch to a 4-3 defense. If we hire Kubiak than there will be a strong chance that we will. In DEN his HC runs the 4-3 and is very successful with it. Our D as the 3-4 sucks! The biggest reason for it is because most of our guys are undersized and not playing their natural position. Look at the top 3 Ds in the NFL, all 4-3. Look at top 10, 70% of them run the 4-3. Out of this years 12 playoff teams 10 of them run the 4-3. Remember how the Falcons ran the 3-4 than went to 4-3 last year and almost got to the big game? Well you know... I'm just saying.

If we did make the switch than our D would look like this:
JBabin----------TJohnson----------GWalker/SPayne---------RSmith
-------Rookie-------------KWong/MGreenwood--------APeek
DRob---------Someone--------------Someone--------Faggins or someone

Even if it doesn't work what do we have to lose? But remember this years draft is crazy in depth! Most of these guys in any other year would be 1st or 2nd rounders

I have been against switching to the 4-3 for awhile now but am having second thoughts. If we were switch to the 4-3 my version would go like this

RDE Babin
DT Johnson
DT R. Smith/Payne
LDE Walker
ROLB Orr ?
ILB Wong/Greenwood
LOLB ?
LCB Robinson
FS Brown ?
SS Earl
RCB ?

I think if we do switch to a 4-3, we could trade down in the draft and load up on defensive talent, maybe a S, CB, and a LB. I left question marks where I am not sure who to plug in the hole. ILB would be tricky, because both Wong and Greenwood have played ILB in the 4-3 and both are kind of hefty cap hits. I think if we could draft a starting quality S, LB, and CB, which I know would be tough, it could make switching to a 4-3 easier than trying to do it with our peronnel now. Personally I would LOVE to see Babin play DE in a 4-3 coming out of a 3 point stance.

bdiddy
01-08-2006, 01:45 PM
Wong and Greenwood both played OLB when in a 4-3, and this would be their best position if the scheme is changed here. Wong could play the Mike position in a crunch.

YodAa
01-08-2006, 03:23 PM
let me fix what I had
If we did make the switch than our D would look like this:
JBabin----------TJohnson----------GWalker/SPayne---------RSmith/GWalker
-------Rookie or Greenwood-------------KWong--------APeek
DRob---------CCBrown or Earl--------------rookie--------Faggins or someone

our DL wouldn't have a real big problem and in this system we could sign smaller guys which are easier to find than for a 3-4. Our LBs we have lots and lots and this draft is packed with even more. At Safety either Earl or Brown can handle the job and for the other side either the other one or another rookie like posibly Daniel Bullocks who we could get with the 3rd rounder we got from NO. At corner Faggins and Buchanon can switch the job from one another from week to week and maybe in the 3rd we could get Cedric Griffin and let him fight for the job as well

BringItOn
01-08-2006, 06:09 PM
Whether a team runs a 4-3 or a 3-4 as their base defense is overblown IMHO because NFL teams spend 60% of the time in a nickel. That said, it makes more sense to me from a personnel perspective to have a 4-3 because you need depth at D-Line to run nickel and dime packages -- not depth at linebacker. I think if you're not careful, you can in effect be wasting roster spots with a 3-4 for linebacker depth. This is why, I think, the teams that are successful with the 3-4 are the ones that are creatively using their LB's in a lot of different situations.

When Casserly came to the Texans, he said one of the reasons it made sense was that the tweeners that were used in the defense were less in demand, and therefore cheaper and more cap-space efficient. That's clearly changed in 4 years so I think it's an opportune time for Houston to switch.

hot pickle
01-08-2006, 06:24 PM
babin might be to small, but if the coaching staff says that we are gonna run the 4-3 and they tell babin to get some more weight he could probably add 10-15 pounds before the season starts

Errant Hothy
01-08-2006, 06:35 PM
I could care less if or to what defense we switch to, mainly because so few teams stay in in type of D look through a game ie the Pats. All I care about is pressuring the QB and stuffing the run, if you need a 4-3 a 46 or even a 3-3-5 to do that, great, I don't care as long as the run is being stopped/slowed down and the QB is getting planted a few times.

On a side note I do think TJ would be worlds more effective on a 4 man line, Babin (also think that he might stay at OLB, maybe) also. The LB core would need some help to make the transition, but thats what the draft is for.

MorKnolle
01-08-2006, 06:55 PM
Babin could play 4-3 DE (maybe add 5 lbs. but that's not overly necessary). Greenwood should not be a MLB or ILB, period. I don't know what they were thinking putting him inside, he is somewhat fast but very small and cannot take on blockers to stop a run, not to mention he can't tackle for anything. If we switch to a 4-3 and Babin stays a LB, we need to move him to MLB where he won't have to cover anyone and he can just stand there and hit anything that comes up the middle on running plays (he's pretty big and strong and a decent tackler). Gary Walker cannot play 4-3 DE anymore, maybe 6-8 years ago but not anymore. We would either need Peek to gain 15-20 lbs. and move him down to DE, or else we'd need to bring one in (John Abraham from Jets, Mario Williams in the draft, etc.)

bdiddy
01-08-2006, 07:07 PM
Babin could play 4-3 DE (maybe add 5 lbs. but that's not overly necessary). Greenwood should not be a MLB or ILB, period. I don't know what they were thinking putting him inside, he is somewhat fast but very small and cannot take on blockers to stop a run, not to mention he can't tackle for anything. If we switch to a 4-3 and Babin stays a LB, we need to move him to MLB where he won't have to cover anyone and he can just stand there and hit anything that comes up the middle on running plays (he's pretty big and strong and a decent tackler). Gary Walker cannot play 4-3 DE anymore, maybe 6-8 years ago but not anymore. We would either need Peek to gain 15-20 lbs. and move him down to DE, or else we'd need to bring one in (John Abraham from Jets, Mario Williams in the draft, etc.)

If we switch to a 4-3 Babin will be a DE. Babin had trouble getting on the field at LB because he cannot play in space. I do not care if you run a 3-4, 4-3, or the 46, if you are a LB you must have good feet. Babin is best when in a three-point stance, he is not a stanup player. He should never have played LB.

Walker is not the best candidate for DE, but he would be passable to play the strong side on running downs. On passing downs the team would bring Peek in, he is a beast of a pass rusher. Peek could easily gain 15lbs., he weighed 263 (pure muscle, not fat added) during mini camp last year and the staff told him to get more lean because they were moving towards a speed defense (we all know how that worked out).

We have no true MLB. Wong and Greenwood should both play the outside, with Orr also being able to play this position. Wong could fill-in in the middle if necessary. We need to get a serviceable MLB and DE in the draft and/or via free agency.