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Grid
01-07-2006, 07:55 PM
Someone in one of these hundreds of Young threads said something about the kind of scheme or passing formation that UT uses, and how most of Young's completions come from that.. and that it would not translate to the NFL.

I was wondering if the person who explained that would mind doing so again? I tried looking for it but there is just too many posts/threads about Young, and I cant remember where I saw it.

Sorry to clutter the board with another thread about it, but it looked pretty important/damning.. and I wanted to shine some light on it and see if some other people with more football knowledge than myself might be able to explain it in more detail.

J-Man
01-07-2006, 08:12 PM
I'm probably not the guy you're actually looking for but the issue you are refering to is the "Zone Read".

Zone Read is run exclusively from the shotgun and is predicated on reading the initial push of the farthest edge defender (normally the DE) on the side that the play is going. The best way I can think of describing it is the genesis of the basic triple option play. The system works very well with an athletic QB giving him the option to run or pass immediately.

At the college level you can excell if you have the right type of players...basically it lets you "out athlete" lesser talents. This system has a number of flaws when you translate it to the pro game, not the least of which is the propensity to get your QB turned into paste on a regular basis.

The concern with VY is that he will need major assistance in learning how to read the full defensive set, make adjustments, and run thru passing progressions. The zone read allows a QB to react on a simple single key...a non-starter at the pro level. If you look at the USC offense it IS a pro level offense; one of the reasons that Carson Palmer and now Matt Leinart will progress rapidly once drafted. If I had to guess I would say that Palmer and Leinart were probably the most "pro ready" QBs to come out in the draft maybe in the last 10 years for this reason (and their own outstanding levels of talent).

Grid
01-07-2006, 08:21 PM
Yes that is exactly what I was looking for :) thanks alot.

Now I just wonder if someone else who is a big young supporter, and knows about this kind of stuff, would like to counter that arguement.

tulexan
01-07-2006, 08:30 PM
I'm not a Young fan but I can give you the argument that you can expect.

It doesn't matter. Vince Young is from Houston, TX and went to University of Texas. He won the National Championship this year and will go to several Pro Bowls plus win the Super Bowl every single year that he is in the league. He will finish his career with 60,000 yards passing plus 20,000 yards rushing.

stevo3883
01-07-2006, 08:44 PM
Yes that is exactly what I was looking for :) thanks alot.

Now I just wonder if someone else who is a big young supporter, and knows about this kind of stuff, would like to counter that arguement.


sure ill give it a shot.

Vince went from a run first qb 2 years ago to a pass first with some designed running plays to take advantage of his amazing running ability.

UT couldve ran a more spread offense this year, and they did at times. But a big reason they used zone read a lot was the running back situation. with benson gone, we had all young guys with little to no experience. little experience leads to bad decisions. So UT eliminated these by putting VY in charge of the read plays.


when VY has run designed passing plays, he has shown a good ability at reading defensive coverages and progressing through his reads. He has turned into a very efficient QB and cut his mistakes down greatly. The leap he made as a passer this year cant be emphasized enough.


and to j-man: im sorry but the ESPN hype machine got you, USC does NOT run a pro style offense. They run a simple WCO like most of the other teams in the PAC-10. The only thing that makes it mildly complex is their ability to use Bush so many ways, other than that, their offense is no different from oregon's or cal's. its just simple pac 10 football


and Carson Palmer did not progress rapidly, he didnt even play his first year, and his second year he was at the top of the league in interceptions in a run first offense.




let us not forget Vince went 30/40 with 0 turnovers against Pete Carrol's defense that led the nation in int's. It was said Carrol was a mastermind at confusing qb's with his gameplan, yet Vince had the best game of any player in a championship game ever.




I'm not even sure we should draft vince, but good god so many people are so uninformed about his playing skills. It seems like they all remember watching him against OU 3 years ago and that is his skill level, and there is no way he improved much since then.

Vince has had 3 sub-par games the past 2 years: oklahoma 2 years ago, mizzou 2 years ago, and A&M this year. thats it.

He's a QB that has gone 25/29 for 336 yards passing, and a QB that has rushed 21 times for 267 yards.




his yardage went from 1800 last year to 3000 this year. His td's-int's went from 12/11 last year to 26/10 this year. his yards per attempt jumped from 7.4 to 9.3 (so save the "all he throws is dump off passes" arguement, because he has a higher YPA than Leinart

stevo3883
01-07-2006, 08:46 PM
and FYI I want Bush, but thats no reason to go around trashing Young as some sub-par player who won't make it in the NFL.

Grid
01-07-2006, 08:50 PM
Cool.... well at least we have a better arguement going than "Young is from Houston".

BradK10
01-07-2006, 08:54 PM
(so save the "all he throws is dump off passes" arguement, because he has a higher YPA than Leinart

it's called YAC (or RAC) in some circles....look into it

stevo3883
01-07-2006, 08:55 PM
it's called YAC (or RAC) in some circles....look into it


its called YARDS PER ATTEMPT


....................

tulexan
01-07-2006, 08:57 PM
Yes but a 1 yard pass that turns into a 50 yard touchdown is credited as a 50 yard play. So if he threw 1 ball that was a 5 yard pass that was an 80 yard touchdown his YPA would be 80

LBC_Justin
01-07-2006, 08:58 PM
Someone in one of these hundreds of Young threads said something about the kind of scheme or passing formation that UT uses, and how most of Young's completions come from that.. and that it would not translate to the NFL.

I was wondering if the person who explained that would mind doing so again? I tried looking for it but there is just too many posts/threads about Young, and I cant remember where I saw it.

Sorry to clutter the board with another thread about it, but it looked pretty important/damning.. and I wanted to shine some light on it and see if some other people with more football knowledge than myself might be able to explain it in more detail.Your looking for a reason Young won't be successful in the NFL. Don't waste your time.
#1 the people here won't listen.
#2 he is going to be successful in the NFL.
#3 you don't have to degrade him to support your argument of using our #1 pick in another way.
#4 The is no one right option. There are lots of ways to be successful with the #1 pick. Picking Bush, Picking Young or trading down could ALL lead our team to success.

BradK10
01-07-2006, 08:58 PM
yeah buddy, i was countering your YPA arguement

thanks tulexan for spelling it out for our football challenged

stevo3883
01-07-2006, 08:59 PM
Yes but a 1 yard pass that turns into a 50 yard touchdown is credited as a 50 yard play. So if he threw 1 ball that was a 5 yard pass that was an 80 yard touchdown his YPA would be 80


Vince's main target was a TE.... second was a 6'5 posession receiver....

BradK10
01-07-2006, 08:59 PM
#4 The is no one right option. There are lots of ways to be successful with the #1 pick. Picking Bush, Picking Young or trading down could ALL lead our team to success.

GOD....the single most intelligent thing posted on this board since the night of January 4th

stevo3883
01-07-2006, 09:00 PM
yeah buddy, i was countering your YPA arguement

thanks tulexan for spelling it out for our football challenged


show me where the UT receivers had a higher YAC than USC's.

David Thomas the TE was vince's main target. Dwayne Jarrett was leinarts.

who do you think has the higher yac?

BradK10
01-07-2006, 09:02 PM
that depends....did thomas get the ball in open space or traffic? did jarrett catch the ball in the endzone?

we'd have to go back and look at a LOT of film to figure that out, and frankly i dont care nor do i have the time.

tulexan
01-07-2006, 09:02 PM
So you are saying that his receivers never get any YAC? I know I have seen many times where he has thrown relatively short passes that turned into long touchdowns.

stevo3883
01-07-2006, 09:05 PM
So you are saying that his receivers never get any YAC? I know I have seen many times where he has thrown relatively short passes that turned into long touchdowns.


never? no of course not.

But the jackass over here pointed out YAC as an arguement to refute my statement that all of vinces passes were just dumpoffs.

I showed UT's top 2 receivers were a TE and a 6'5 posession receiver, so obviously YAC hasnt skewed his stats.

think of all the YAC Bush got for Leinart

BradK10
01-07-2006, 09:08 PM
and might wanna think about changing your sig if you're such a Vince worshipper

Honoring Earl 34
01-07-2006, 09:10 PM
:yahoo: I would think the surest bet for a college QB to translate to a pro QB would players like Brady Quinn who plays for a guy like Charlie Weiss .

BradK10
01-07-2006, 09:11 PM
i agree with that, i think that whoever gets Quinn next year will be getting a better NFL Ready QB than either Young or Leinart

stevo3883
01-07-2006, 09:14 PM
and might wanna think about changing your sig if you're such a Vince worshipper


i already said i want to draft Bush.

But that doesnt mean I have to act like an aggy/sooner and badmouth any great player that doesnt play for my team.

tulexan
01-07-2006, 09:15 PM
Yeah Notre Dame is running the Patriots playbook. Him and Brian Brohm are going to be the next great QB's to enter the league.

Honoring Earl 34
01-07-2006, 09:20 PM
:redtowel: I think that leaves speed of the game as the unknown factor . I think that is dividing line , between the cans and can'ts at any position .

BradK10
01-07-2006, 09:21 PM
i already said i want to draft Bush.

But that doesnt mean I have to act like an aggy/sooner and badmouth any great player that doesnt play for my team.

notsomuch myself either....

if anything, whats fueling me these days is the ridiculousness that is this forum over the past couple days, the boycott talk and all...it's sickening

Vince might be great, but drafting him puts this team in such a bind it's not funny. Unfortunately we've gotta pass him up and hope that our pick helps us out.

And I'm neither an Ag or a Sooner....just a lowly Texas Lutheran Bulldog

chuckm
01-07-2006, 09:22 PM
how can his college success even be disputed? The guy is awesome .... end of story .... but IMO the Texans should draft Bush or trade down and draft Hawk or Ferguson ...

BradK10
01-07-2006, 09:24 PM
Yes...he was great this year no doubt. I want to say you could throw Brad Smith in Texas' offense and get the same...but we'll never know.

I'm starting to feel like maybe we SHOULD trade down

Honoring Earl 34
01-07-2006, 09:24 PM
:yahoo: So Brad , if Texas Lutheran wins the BCS you and Sequin are going to push for their best player ?

BradK10
01-07-2006, 09:28 PM
:yahoo: So Brad , if Texas Lutheran wins the BCS you and Sequin are going to push for their best player ?

absolutely not ;)

i'm not even sure we could win the 5A Texas title :) jk

Grid
01-07-2006, 09:34 PM
Your looking for a reason Young won't be successful in the NFL. Don't waste your time.
#1 the people here won't listen.
#2 he is going to be successful in the NFL.
#3 you don't have to degrade him to support your argument of using our #1 pick in another way.
#4 The is no one right option. There are lots of ways to be successful with the #1 pick. Picking Bush, Picking Young or trading down could ALL lead our team to success.

Not trying to degrade anyone.. just trying to get some clarification on a good arguement I heard before. Maybe start up a more compelling conversation than "Vince is from houston!".. it didnt last long but it was nice while it did :)

Bout the only thing we learned though was something we already knew... college stats have no bearing on NFL ability.

dtran04
01-07-2006, 09:40 PM
i agree with that, i think that whoever gets Quinn next year will be getting a better NFL Ready QB than either Young or Leinart

Agreed. Although for us, I think the Titans getting Leinart instead of Young is much scarier from a FOOTBALL persepective (not PR). He'll pretty much be in the same system he has played in for years.

J-Man
01-07-2006, 09:43 PM
and to j-man: im sorry but the ESPN hype machine got you, USC does NOT run a pro style offense. They run a simple WCO like most of the other teams in the PAC-10. The only thing that makes it mildly complex is their ability to use Bush so many ways, other than that, their offense is no different from oregon's or cal's. its just simple pac 10 football

and Carson Palmer did not progress rapidly, he didnt even play his first year, and his second year he was at the top of the league in interceptions in a run first offense.

I'm not even sure we should draft vince, but good god so many people are so uninformed about his playing skills. It seems like they all remember watching him against OU 3 years ago and that is his skill level, and there is no way he improved much since then.

He's a QB that has gone 25/29 for 336 yards passing, and a QB that has rushed 21 times for 267 yards.


Good other side of the coin post, here's a couple things:
1. Outside of Notre Dame, USC runs about as pro style of an offense as it gets in college. Of note, Norm Chow is running the "USC offense" with the Titans now. That being said obviously what a pro team runs is leaps and bounds ahead of just about any college system no matter how similar.

2. Carson Palmer sat by design for his first year. Based on number of games played I would suspect that Palmers progress to this point has been very good relative to the majority of other QBs drafted in recent memory.


3. Quick note on his Rose bowl stats: Best individual preformance I've seen probably. But just checking the raw numbers (29 passes, 21 runs)...if he tries that many runs at the pro level he will get hammered. He is even more of a run first guy than Vick was when he came out...that will need to be retrained a bit.

4. Don't mistake my answering the OP for a postion that I don't think Young could make an outstanding pro QB...he just might need some additional time or assistance.

Corrosion
01-07-2006, 09:43 PM
Young as a starter .... 30-2 .... that says more to me than mere stats ...yac ypa ypr ..... bleh .......30-2


Is he the right choice for the Texans .... Im not in a position to make that decision but either way he's one hell of a football player .


:cool:

Tulip
01-07-2006, 09:49 PM
I was just watching VY's pump fake for the 17-yard TD with 4:03 left in the Rose Bowl.

Nice.

chuckm
01-07-2006, 09:51 PM
I was just watching VY's pump fake for the 17-yard TD with 4:03 left in the Rose Bowl.

Nice.


are they replaying the game? great ... whip everyone into another froth and we can replay the last few days on the board ...

Tulip
01-07-2006, 09:53 PM
are they replaying the game? great ... whip everyone into another froth and we can replay the last few days on the board ...

Yeah - it's on ESPN Classic right now. It's USC's final 4th and 1 1/2 that they are about to measure. I doubt many are watching. Jacksonville/New England is on.