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NFLforher
01-07-2006, 03:59 PM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3571013.html


Kubiak has become known as an expert mentor for quarterbacks and sees potential in Houston's David Carr.

"He's got tremendous ability, and we all know he's a great kid," Kubiak said. "He'd be a joy to work with, and he's got some weapons around him to make him better. Through a lot of hard work, there's another level there for him to reach."

Kubiak played for the Broncos from 1983-91. After two years at Texas A&M, Kubiak was the quarterbacks coach for San Francisco when the 49ers won the Super Bowl with Shanahan as offensive coordinator. The two then left together for Denver.





Get Kubiak and then Reggie..along with an O-line. Yes.

The Dream
01-07-2006, 04:02 PM
damn the last thing we need is another David "Sub Par" Carr lover.....dude will never be more than average.

NFLforher
01-07-2006, 04:03 PM
damn the last thing we need is another David "Sub Par" Carr lover.....dude will never be more than average.


Guess you know more than Gary. :brickwall

HardKnockTexan
01-07-2006, 04:06 PM
Guess you know more than Gary. :brickwall


Right... what would a someone that coached Steve Young and John Elway know about quarterbacks??

The Dream
01-07-2006, 04:06 PM
I'm not saying I know more than Gary, but it is a possibility that he could be wrong, I've watched David play and he shows me no reason on why we should give him 8 mil to be our franchise QB......."drop Sub Par Carr", that's my battle cry.

Kaiser Toro
01-07-2006, 04:07 PM
Guess you know more than Gary. :brickwall

Gary knows whats best for Gary and if that is telling Mr. McNair/Cass what they want to hear about Carr, then he will do it. I have never seen so many people look the other way on such a fruitless pick.

Tulip
01-07-2006, 04:08 PM
So it's going to take a lot of hard work, but David Carr can reach another level? I wonder what that level is:

Average?

Better than average?

John Elway?

What is that level that Kubiak has identified? That's the interesting question.

LikeABoss
01-07-2006, 04:09 PM
Kubiak and Shanahan were able to turn Jake Plummer's career around, I say give him the benefit of the doubt with Carr.

Plus Carr is already use to playing in a pro offense, Vince Young is not even doing that at Texas.

Houston would be taking steps back by taking Vince Young IMO.

TexanSam
01-07-2006, 04:11 PM
I'm not saying I know more than Gary, but it is a possibility that he could be wrong, I've watched David play and he shows me no reason on why we should give him 8 mil to be our franchise QB......."drop Sub Par Carr", that's my battle cry.

He's shows people no reason because he has had no offensive line to protect him. Any QB would be as scared as him if this is how he's had to play the first 4 years of his career, getting sacked 50 or more times a year. I remember the game against the Rams, the only game I remember watching this year where he had time to pass. He had a great game then (including the 2nd half) and has shown flashes of what he can be.

HardKnockTexan
01-07-2006, 04:11 PM
Even if Kubiak is telling McNair what he wants to hear I really doubt he'd put himself into a no win situation. If Kubiak thinks Carr isnt going to cut it then I doubt that Kubiak would want to coach here anyways.

dirty steve
01-07-2006, 04:11 PM
I've watched David play and he shows me no reason on why we should give him 8 mil to be our franchise QB......."drop Sub Par Carr", that's my battle cry.

so Bob McNair should spend 50 mil and let Young sit?

Vinny
01-07-2006, 04:13 PM
so Bob McNair should spend 50 mil and let Young sit?It worked for Steve McNair and Carson Palmer.

The Dream
01-07-2006, 04:13 PM
Kubiak and Shanahan were able to turn Jake Plummer's career around,


Plummer had a good year THIS season, I'm still not to big on him either.


so Bob McNair should spend 50 mil and let Young sit?

If he turns out to be great, then yes.

LikeABoss
01-07-2006, 04:17 PM
Plummer had a good year THIS season, I'm still not to big on him either.

That's your opinion if you are not big on Plummer's play, but the fact of the matter is that Plummer is playing better football this year comapred to last.

Better play from him is one of the primary reasons why the Broncos won the AFC West.

The Dream
01-07-2006, 04:18 PM
I just don't see how someone could think that VY could be any worst than "Sub Par"

LikeABoss
01-07-2006, 04:21 PM
I just don't see how someone could think that VY could be any worst than "Sub Par"

Plus Carr is already use to playing in a pro offense, Vince Young is not even doing that at Texas.

Big stats out of a shotgun offense tailored around Young's strengths.

The name Alex Smith rings a bell to anyone around here?

Lienart is the most prepared QB prospect because he's been running a pro offense at USC for 3 years.

Vince hasn't done it for one season, he will not be prepared to step right in and be more productive than Carr.

The Dream
01-07-2006, 04:22 PM
Vince is no Alex Smith

LikeABoss
01-07-2006, 04:24 PM
Vince is no Alex Smith

Because Vince can run, but the passing #'s were similar.

TexanSam
01-07-2006, 04:26 PM
Vince is no Alex Smith

That is true. He may be better. He may be worse. We don't know yet since Vince isn't in the NFL and hasn't even declared. The Texans have bigger needs than quarterback though.

Let me ask you this The Dream, were you all for the Texans drafting Vince Young before the NC game?

Vinny
01-07-2006, 04:26 PM
Because Vince can run, but the passing #'s were similar.Hawaii and Texas Tech QB's always have great numbers...but nobody thinks they are a QB factory...you just have to watch the games since numbers are deceptive. Alex Smith is no Vince Young.

Fiddy
01-07-2006, 04:27 PM
The name Alex Smith rings a bell to anyone around here? I was always against Alex Smith as the first pick last year and Smith and VY have nothing in common.

Lienart is the most prepared QB prospect because he's been running a pro offense at USC for 3 years. Against the scubs of the Pac-10. He goes up against the Longhorns and struggled.

The Dream
01-07-2006, 04:27 PM
Yes I've been wanting him in a Texans uni, but he kept saying he was gonna stay another year, so I thought he was out of the picture....but he wants to come out so my opinion is VY>>>>RB.

NFLforher
01-07-2006, 04:28 PM
Right... what would a someone that coached Steve Young and John Elway know about quarterbacks??


True.

NFLforher
01-07-2006, 04:30 PM
Even if Kubiak is telling McNair what he wants to hear I really doubt he'd put himself into a no win situation. If Kubiak thinks Carr isnt going to cut it then I doubt that Kubiak would want to coach here anyways.


Right. There are more opportunities out there.

TexanSam
01-07-2006, 04:30 PM
I was always against Alex Smith as the first pick last year and Smith and VY have nothing in common.

Against the scubs of the Pac-10. He goes up against the Longhorns and struggled.

Leinart struggle against UT? Are you kidding? Did you even watch the game? 29 for 40 for 365 yards is struggling? He was almost perfect in the 2nd half. Make a logical argument at least...

LikeABoss
01-07-2006, 04:31 PM
Against the scubs of the Pac-10. He goes up against the Longhorns and struggled.

29-40 365 yards 72.5 comp % 9.1 passing avg. 1 TD 1 INT against Texas

I wouldn't call that struggling.

In the first half maybe, but there is two halfs to a football game.

Kaiser Toro
01-07-2006, 04:32 PM
Right... what would a someone that coached Steve Young and John Elway know about quarterbacks??

He had zero to do with their development. Go look at your history as others could take this as an implication.

Fiddy
01-07-2006, 04:32 PM
Leinart struggle against UT? Are you kidding? Did you even watch the game? 29 for 40 for 365 yards is struggling? He was almost perfect in the 2nd half. Make a logical argument at least... Watch the first half. He struggled. They made adjusments in the 2nd half. He didnt have his usually 3 TD, no INT game. He had one TD passing and one INT and came close to throwing 2 more if the Texas defenders had any catching ablility...

LikeABoss
01-07-2006, 04:37 PM
Hawaii and Texas Tech QB's always have great numbers...but nobody thinks they are a QB factory...you just have to watch the games since numbers are deceptive. Alex Smith is no Vince Young.

I'm comparing them because they both played in a similar type of offense. It's just that Vince is a way better runner than Smith, but their passing #'s were not that far apart.

I'm not hating on Vince at all, hell I was one of the posters on here defending him on this board. I just think it's gonna take him time to adjust playing in a NFL offense.

You know, 3-5 step drops from underneath the center, scanning the field making adjustments, changes, and reads from underneath the center at the line of scrimmage. You know, basic stuff like that. He should stay at Texas and work on that, instead of taking off to the NFL and having to learn how to do it over there.

Fiddy
01-07-2006, 04:39 PM
He should stay at Texas and work on that, instead of taking off to the NFL and having to learn how to do it over there. If he goes back to Texas he isnt going to work on that in a game. Brown isnt going to change the offense that won him a national championship just so VY will be ready for the NFL. The best way for him to learn it is to come out, hold a clipboard for a while and then get in the game and learn of the move.

The Dream
01-07-2006, 04:41 PM
Fiddy said it all.

LikeABoss
01-07-2006, 04:42 PM
If he goes back to Texas he isnt going to work on that in a game. Brown isnt going to change the offense that won him a national championship just so VY will be ready for the NFL. The best way for him to learn it is to come out, hold a clipboard for a while and then get in the game and learn of the move.

Well folks, there you have it.

I still don't think the Texans really need him though. And why invest that much money into one position anyway when the Texans have many more problems at different positions? Oh well. *shrugs*

The Dream
01-07-2006, 04:44 PM
why invest money in the RB position, when we already have a good one, and have many more holes to fill????.............you can't do everything at once, but what you can do is draft a great talent and fill in the rest as you go along.

bigTEXan8
01-07-2006, 04:46 PM
Gary knows whats best for Gary and if that is telling Mr. McNair/Cass what they want to hear about Carr, then he will do it. I have never seen so many people look the other way on such a fruitless pick.

Yeah...I'm sure that's what McNair wants to hear. What McNair wants to hear is how he's going to make this team better, not the stuff he already knows. That's like me telling Peter Frampton what a power cord is.

Kaiser Toro
01-07-2006, 04:48 PM
Yeah...I'm sure that's what McNair wants to hear. What McNair wants to hear is how he's going to make this team better, not the stuff he already knows. That's like me telling Peter Frampton what a power cord is.

If you are talking about Frampton before he did the Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band movie, then you may have a point.

LikeABoss
01-07-2006, 04:48 PM
why invest money in the RB position, when we already have a good one, and have many more holes to fill????.............you can't do everything at once, but what you can do is draft a great talent and fill in the rest as you go along.

With Bush you would have the change of pace, take it the distance type running back. With Davis you would still have that power run between the tackles type running back. It would be a two-headed monster that teams would have to respect, which should open up the passing game so AJ can see less double teams. Domanick also wouldn't have to carry the load all the time, so that should keep him healthy.

Jus my :twocents: tho.

vtech9
01-07-2006, 04:49 PM
I also believe that Carr has great ability, but so many times I have just sat there shaking my head because of some stupid move that Carr made. He stares down his WR, doesn't have pocket presence, and doesn't know how to throw that ball away to keep from taking a sack.

Vince Young doesn't have the arm strength of Carr (at least from what we have seen), hasn't played a pro style offense, and according to some here is only marginally faster than Carr. While these might be true, Young brings something that Carr hasn't. Young has Pocket presense, knows how to find his other options, and has the confidence to take the team on his shoulders and do what it takes to win.

I like Carr, and I hope he can be taught to become a good QB, but right now, Young is further along to being a good QB than Carr is, and Young is just a Junior in college, while Carr is a 4 year veteran.

tulexan
01-07-2006, 04:51 PM
He had zero to do with their development. Go look at your history as others could take this as an implication.


That is debatable. Steve Young had one of his best seasons when Kubiak was the QB coach for the Niners.

The Dream
01-07-2006, 04:52 PM
With Bush you would have the change of pace, take it the distance type running back. With Davis you would still have that power run between the tackles type running back. It would be a two-headed monster that teams would have to respect, which should open up the passing game so AJ can see less double teams. Domanick also wouldn't have to carry the load all the time, so that should keep him healthy.


And with Young, you have a proven leader/winner (which the team needs), who is accurate, can run, read defenses, will have a great target to go to in Andre Johnson, and can only get better with some snaps.


That's just my 2 cents.

tulexan
01-07-2006, 04:54 PM
Young is further along to being a good QB than Carr is, and Young is just a Junior in college, while Carr is a 4 year veteran.

College is much different from the NFL.

Kaiser Toro
01-07-2006, 04:55 PM
That is debatable. Steve Young had his best season when Kubiak was the QB coach for the Niners.

Young had been in the league for 9 years until Kubiak touched him. He was all pro already in 92 & 93 before Kubiak came in 94. Lest we not forget Young at BYU was not to shabby. :challenge

The Dream
01-07-2006, 04:55 PM
but Young has a lot more upside than Sub Par, and imo (college or not) is better than Sub Par,

tulexan
01-07-2006, 05:01 PM
Young had been in the league for 9 years until Kubiak touched him. He was all pro already in 92 & 93 before Kubiak came in 94. Lest we not forget Young at BYU was not to shabby. :challenge


True, no doubt Steve Young was a great talent even before Kubiak was there, but in '94 he had a 70% completion average, threw for almost 4000 yards and had 35 touchdowns and only 10 interceptions, not to mention the most important fact that they went to the Super Bowl in which he put on a clinic and threw for 326 yards and 6 touchdowns with no interceptions.

bigTEXan8
01-07-2006, 05:04 PM
but Young has a lot more upside than Sub Par, and imo (college or not) is better than Sub Par,

VY does nothing but zone-read. Another QB who did that was this kid named Alex Smith. He didn't throw a TD till he faced the worst D in the league, in the last game of the year. Young is very overrated. The only advantage VY has over Smith is speed. VY doesn't have a strong arm. By NFL standards, he is sub-par.

The Dream
01-07-2006, 05:04 PM
saying Kubiak had anything to do with the greatness of Young is like saying Phil Jackson had to do with the greatness of MJ.....great players make great coaches.

Runner
01-07-2006, 05:05 PM
Guess you know more than Gary. :brickwall

This board knows more than Kubiak, Dungy, the Texan org, Reeves and anyone else who disagrees! No evidence is enough (unless Carr has a great year, than we'll all say we knew it).

However, when the board disagrees with itself, cognative dissonance makes my brain vibrate and my head explode. :bomb:

tulexan
01-07-2006, 05:07 PM
saying Kubiak had anything to do with the greatness of Young is like saying Phil Jackson had to do with the greatness of MJ.....great players make great coaches.

Did Jordan win a championship before Phil Jackson was the coach?

The Dream
01-07-2006, 05:07 PM
Bottom line is VY can't be worst than David Carr....and I'm almost 99.9% sure on that......David was, is, and will always be average.....he is what he is. :rolleyes:


Did Jordan win a championship before Phil Jackson was the coach?

this isn't a basketball forum so I'll leave this one alone..........but I'll leave you with this, I guess Rudy is responsible for the Rockets 2 titles........Jordan would still have rings without Jackson....

Kaiser Toro
01-07-2006, 05:07 PM
This board knows more than Kubiak, Dungy, the Texan org, Reeves and anyone else who disagrees! No evidence is enough (unless Carr has a great year, than we'll all say we knew it).

However, when the board disagrees with itself, cognative dissonance makes my brain vibrate and my head explode. :bomb:

Just about right when it comes to the Texans since most of us have watched our team more than any of those that you listed.

Fiddy
01-07-2006, 05:10 PM
Bottom line is VY can't be worst than David Carr....and I'm almost 99.9% sure on that......David was, is, and will always be average.....he is what he is. :rolleyes: Hold up...Carr hasnt reached average yet...

The Dream
01-07-2006, 05:12 PM
oh I forgot....please forgive me......Vince can't be any worst than Sub Par.....that sounds a little better.

vtech9
01-07-2006, 05:14 PM
With Bush you would have the change of pace, take it the distance type running back. With Davis you would still have that power run between the tackles type running back. It would be a two-headed monster that teams would have to respect, which should open up the passing game so AJ can see less double teams. Domanick also wouldn't have to carry the load all the time, so that should keep him healthy.

Jus my :twocents: tho.
Is Morrency worthless? How about Wells? If you take Reggie Bush, one if not both of them are gone. I didn't want Bush before watching the Rose Bowl, and definately don't want him now. If a college LB can cover him one on one, don't you think an NFL LB can? Bush proved that against equal talent, he isn't that good. He reminds me of a RB that we already have. Tony Hollings is also a fast RB that always tries to bounce to the outside. If Hollings had not been hurt in college, he probably would have had similar numbers to Bush. Is Hollings a great NFL RB now? I see Bush the same way. I'd pas on Bush if Young comes out or not.

run-david-run
01-07-2006, 05:15 PM
Gary knows whats best for Gary and if that is telling Mr. McNair/Cass what they want to hear about Carr, then he will do it. I have never seen so many people look the other way on such a fruitless pick.
Yeah, i am pretty sure if he thought he had a better chance at winning as HC of the Texans with VY or Leinart, he would say that. It's not like we have to give anything up to get rid of Carr. Both Carr or the top pick would get simmillar money, obviously Kubiak feels Carr is the better option, i trust his opinions over yours...

Runner
01-07-2006, 05:16 PM
Just about right when it comes to the Texans since most of us have watched our team more than any of those that you listed.

Hmmm. I actually think some of those people know more about football and judging talent than me.


I could be wrong though - there is always the Joe Pendry example.

Texans86
01-07-2006, 05:17 PM
Did Jordan win a championship before Phil Jackson was the coach?

A better question might be did Jackson win without Jordan?

tulexan
01-07-2006, 05:17 PM
Just about right when it comes to the Texans since most of us have watched our team more than any of those that you listed.


I don't believe that is necessarily an accurate statement. For Kubiak, yes you could argue that we have watched them more than him. But he also sees a lot more than we do when he watches them and also has experience with the team during those three days when the Broncos were at our camp. Dungy has watched a lot of Texans film because twice a season he and the rest of the staff studies Texans film for probably 12 hours a day several days. Dan Reeves has been studying Texans film and watching practices constantly for a few weeks now as well. And the Texans org has watched every single game, watched every single practice, and has studied film to see where they are going wrong.

vtech9
01-07-2006, 05:18 PM
College is much different from the NFL.
and Carr is no better than he was in college...still a ton of unrealized potential

Kaiser Toro
01-07-2006, 05:18 PM
Hmmm. I actually think some of those people know more about football and judging talent than me.


I could be wrong though - there is always the Joe Pendry example.

I do not doubt they know football more than anyone here. I would argue we have more of a finger on the pulse of what is needed for the Texans as a collective market.

HJam72
01-07-2006, 05:21 PM
I do not doubt they know football more than anyone here.

I do. :)

pv1999
01-07-2006, 05:33 PM
Is Morrency worthless? How about Wells? If you take Reggie Bush, one if not both of them are gone. I didn't want Bush before watching the Rose Bowl, and definately don't want him now. If a college LB can cover him one on one, don't you think an NFL LB can? Bush proved that against equal talent, he isn't that good. He reminds me of a RB that we already have. Tony Hollings is also a fast RB that always tries to bounce to the outside. If Hollings had not been hurt in college, he probably would have had similar numbers to Bush. Is Hollings a great NFL RB now? I see Bush the same way. I'd pas on Bush if Young comes out or not.

At best Bush could be another LT(Waco University High product), Marshall Faulk. I don't think he will be in the NFL long enough to get to Thurman Thomas (Willowridge product), Emmitt, Barry status. (notice the size simularities) He is not a NFL franchise back until he proves he can do it on this level. And by that definition, the Texans have no franchise backs.

Kaiser Toro
01-07-2006, 05:34 PM
And by that definition, the Texans have no franchise backs.

And we are not paying anyone franchise back money.

Runner
01-07-2006, 05:40 PM
I do not doubt they know football more than anyone here. I would argue we have more of a finger on the pulse of what is needed for the Texans as a collective market.


I know what you mean. I just wonder if it so clear cut, why doesn't everyone on this board agree? Or is it just the "non finger on the pulse members" who disagree? :)

I personally haven't made up my mind on what I would do with the first pick. I see the downside of the 3 major options (Young, Bush, trade) and can't decide which is riskier. They all do, hard as it is to believe, have downside.

I'd just like to see more people keep an open mind. It seems battle lines are drawn, and no evidence of any sort can make anyone change their position. (Although it will change in an instant with hindsight). Most people here seem to like Kubiak, but when he says "Carr can be pretty good" or whatever, the response is he's in McNair's pocket. So which is it? Is Kubiak a good coach or a McNair yesman? It seems pretty inconsistent. I'd rather see a little glimmer in the vein of "Well, Kubiak might know what is talking about....", even if we don't agree in the end.


Caveat: I think Carr had great potential coming out of college and he may have been ruined beyond recovery since. I can see the sense in cutting him outright rather than risk signing him and hoping to trade him later. It would be great, IMO, if Kubiak was right, Dave succeeds, and that is a hole we didn't have to fill.


This isn't directed personnaly at you K.T. , Vinny, or other long time posters on this thread or any others who are down on Carr. Most of you guys have a history of having reasoning behind your positions and have been known to change given sufficient evidence. The board is just crazy right now.

The Dream
01-07-2006, 05:42 PM
Dude you just got here after 4 years of this franchise, dont come on here and spit crap

look I'm sorry if I'm offending you by reffering to your idol as Sub Par, I've been following the Texans since day one.....a guy that I work with told me about this site, so I thought I join (especially since there's so much to talk about).

Kaiser Toro
01-07-2006, 05:46 PM
This isn't directed personnaly at you K.T. , Vinny, or other long time posters on this thread or any others who are down on Carr. Most of you guys have a history of having reasoning behind your positions and have been known to change given sufficient evidence. The board is just crazy right now.

It is crazy and its is still early in the game with the first quarter finishing on 1/15 with college players having to declare and with our HC horefully in place on 1/16.

There is no doubt that it will continue to be crazy until Tagliabue actually sasys the words, "with the the first pick the....."

vtech9
01-07-2006, 05:59 PM
I know what you mean. I just wonder if it so clear cut, why doesn't everyone on this board agree? Or is it just the "non finger on the pulse members" who disagree? :)

I personally haven't made up my mind on what I would do with the first pick. I see the downside of the 3 major options (Young, Bush, trade) and can't decide which is riskier. They all do, hard as it is to believe, have downside.

I'd just like to see more people keep an open mind. It seems battle lines are drawn, and no evidence of any sort can make anyone change their position. (Although it will change in an instant with hindsight). Most people here seem to like Kubiak, but when he says "Carr can be pretty good" or whatever, the response is he's in McNair's pocket. So which is it? Is Kubiak a good coach or a McNair yesman? It seems pretty inconsistent. I'd rather see a little glimmer in the vein of "Well, Kubiak might know what is talking about....", even if we don't agree in the end.


Caveat: I think Carr had great potential coming out of college and he may have been ruined beyond recovery since. I can see the sense in cutting him outright rather than risk signing him and hoping to trade him later. It would be great, IMO, if Kubiak was right, Dave succeeds, and that is a hole we didn't have to fill.


This isn't directed personnaly at you K.T. , Vinny, or other long time posters on this thread or any others who are down on Carr. Most of you guys have a history of having reasoning behind your positions and have been known to change given sufficient evidence. The board is just crazy right now.
I think Carr still has a lot of potential, but after 4 years of the same, when do you draw the line? Some people never realize their potential.

I think Kubiak's comments about Carr are basically the same as every other coaching candidate's comments. They are giving the safe answer without saying one way or the other if Carr would be their guy. If I was interviewing for the HC job, I would say basically the same thing. Carr has alot of unrealized potential and needs a lot of work to meet that potential. Is that saying that Carr is the guy? Is it saying that Carr isn't? You don't know. You are all reading what you want out of a standard comment by an assistant coach that wants to be a head coach.

LikeABoss
01-07-2006, 06:29 PM
Is Morrency worthless? How about Wells? If you take Reggie Bush, one if not both of them are gone. I didn't want Bush before watching the Rose Bowl, and definately don't want him now. If a college LB can cover him one on one, don't you think an NFL LB can? Bush proved that against equal talent, he isn't that good. He reminds me of a RB that we already have. Tony Hollings is also a fast RB that always tries to bounce to the outside. If Hollings had not been hurt in college, he probably would have had similar numbers to Bush. Is Hollings a great NFL RB now? I see Bush the same way. I'd pas on Bush if Young comes out or not.

Morency? Morency is not half the player Bush is... Wells probably won't even be on the roster when a new coach comes in. USC definitely made a horrible coaching decision by not playing Bush down the stretch in that game. After he just scored that 26 yard rushing touchdown against Texas (that was USC's longest run by the way, Carrol just completely stopped using him. After he just scored the longest FRICKEN rushing TD for USC he just completely stopped using him.

The coaching decision not to use Bush as any kind of weapon after that TD just completely blew me away, and I just didn't understand it. I mean the dude just scored a fricken TD. He didn't even use Bush as a WR until Vince scored that game winning TD and USC was trying to mount a comeback with no time outs left because it was stupidly blown on that 2 pt conversion.

And if you call 13 carrries for 82 yards @ 6.3 yards per carry 1 TD with 6 catches for 95 yards @ 15.8 yards per catch being covered, then you must be one delusional person. Reggie Bush had more recieving yards than the Texas wide recievers. As for Hollings, he is not even relevant to this kind of talent, so you shouldn't even have mentioned him. I can care less how fast Hollings is, he clearly didn't get it done in college the way Bush has injuries or no injuries.

For three years Bush has proven himself and has gotten better every year. And I think that all this talk since the Rose Bowl about Reggie Bush not being good, is over hyped, and will be a bust because he can't run up the middle crap is gonna motivate him to do well and prove alot of people wrong. He will quiet alot of his critics when he wrecks havoc in the NFL you just wait and see.

Master Po
01-07-2006, 07:11 PM
I understand that the Texans were 2-14 this year.

I understand that Carr finished in the bottom half of the league statistically this year in many categories.

I understand that part of his near-record sack count this year could be fairly attributed to his own fault.

I understand that he locks onto receivers at times, gets happy feet other times, and has, in virtually every way, not lived up to the expectations that were placed upon him when we drafted him #1 in 2002.

Even in light of these shortcomings, I do not, at the end of the day, understand the criticism of Carr and his abilities as a player.

The guy has played for an absolute joke of a coaching staff, has consistently played behind the worst, most inept line in recent memory, and has dealt with, most recently, injuries to key offensive players and bad personnel decisions the rest of the time.

What quarterback in this league could play better than Carr, under the conditions he has endured?

Then, Kubiak - not an analyst, not a reporter, but a successful offensive coordinator on a repeatedly successful team - takes up for Carr and makes the rightful analysis of his performance, and now all of these experts on this board who have "watched Carr since day one" know better?

The naysayers are right: what the hell does Kubiak know? What does Tony Dungy or Dan Marino know (two of the recent names to support Carr as a player and as a Texan, do I need to round up the other names?)

Get off Young's jock. It is fine to be a fan of Young, and hell, it is fine to be a fan of him taking up a Texan's uniform. But if you are going to discredit Carr, make an attempt to look knowledgeable of the game of football while you do so.

Well said. Couldn't agree more. I also wonder if the VY love affair would so extreme on, and around, here if he was from somewhere other than this fine state. We saw it with DJ last year. Geeez, if you are from Texas and star at UT than you are simply the second coming. Gets tiresome.

J-Man
01-07-2006, 07:26 PM
Jerek...

That's one of the most logical and objective posts I've seen in the last week. I've been around for bit here on the boards (in between sandy vactions courtesy of Uncle Sam) and I am almost amazed at the craziness over this offseason (draft, coaches, everything).

For the record I actually think we pick Bush (homerun ball carrier and instantly the 2nd best receiver) or drop down a couple slots and snag some quality O-line or dare I say AJ Hawk (best defensive player in draft). I think no matter how athletically gifted VY is he will have a very tough transition to the pro's primarily due to the type of offense he's ran for the last 3yrs. No matter where he goes VY will need a top flight QB mentor to help his transition.

edo783
01-07-2006, 08:17 PM
Well said. Couldn't agree more. I also wonder if the VY love affair would so extreme on, and around, here if he was from somewhere other than this fine state. We saw it with DJ last year. Geeez, if you are from Texas and star at UT than you are simply the second coming. Gets tiresome.

Ditto. It is tiresome in the extreme.

Goldeagle
01-07-2006, 11:17 PM
Anyone with any football knowledge, even a tad knows Carr has not gotten the protection he has needed from year one. Thank Casserly for saying it takes 3 years to develop a lineman and never drafting but using that excuse every year.

Even Tony Dungy said Peyton Manning could not do any better than Carr behind our O-line. Everyone except Pitts is a loser from another team, why do you think they let them go??

In any case, Carr is probably shell shocked, ruined by now because of Casserly, Palmer, and Capers. Trade Carr and Draft Young and get some excitement. Everyone knows Carr has talent, but can he be rebuilt?

Tulip
01-07-2006, 11:28 PM
Anyone with any football knowledge, even a tad knows Carr has not gotten the protection he has needed from year one. Thank Casserly for saying it takes 3 years to develop a lineman and never drafting but using that excuse every year.

Casserly has never drafted a lineman?

Boxscore
01-07-2006, 11:30 PM
I watched the Rose Bowl for a second time tonight on ESPN Classic. Although Vince Young looked invincible, there is no way he would be able to do what he does in the NFL where players are faster than any he has ever played against. I was not as impressed with Bush either as being the next great back. Maybe a trade to get the lineman from VA. is the right thing to do.

Marcus
01-07-2006, 11:49 PM
Then, Kubiak - not an analyst, not a reporter, but a successful offensive coordinator on a repeatedly successful team - takes up for Carr and makes the rightful analysis of his performance, and now all of these experts on this board who have "watched Carr since day one" know better?

The naysayers are right: what the hell does Kubiak know? What does Tony Dungy or Dan Marino know (two of the recent names to support Carr as a player and as a Texan, do I need to round up the other names?)

Thanks jerek! It's nice to read a post that's level-headed, and thought out. Refreshing, considering the chaos going on this board.
:highfive:

Fiddy
01-07-2006, 11:51 PM
The naysayers are right: what the hell does Kubiak know? What does Tony Dungy or Dan Marino know (two of the recent names to support Carr as a player and as a Texan, do I need to round up the other names?) Of course Dungy supports him, Dungy has never lost to Carr, lol. Why would he want the QB to change??? :D

Nighthawk
01-07-2006, 11:59 PM
Guess you know more than Gary. :brickwall

Ever cross your mind that Gary might say what he thought his interviewers wanted to hear, the better to get his multi-million dollar job?

Some people.

Nighthawk
01-08-2006, 12:03 AM
Right... what would a someone that coached Steve Young and John Elway know about quarterbacks??

And the idea that Kubiak "coached" Elway and Young, while technically true, is probably an overstatement of Kubiak's role, don't you imagine? He was a QB who himself could not make it in the NFL and thus spent a great deal of time with a notebook on the sidelines. THereafter he made a swift transition into coaching at an early age.

I'm not saying he's not good, nor that he doesn't know anything about playing QB in the league, and he may be (probably is) a MUCH BETTER coach than he ever was a player, but you don't cite a couple of his approximate contemporaries who were HOF players as beneficiaries of Kubiak's coaching prowess. At that point he was more like holding their water bottles.

Goldeagle
01-08-2006, 12:04 AM
Evidently Dan Reeves thought Carr was good enough as well.

Casserly has drafted O-line but not the top guys. he has waited to work on 3rd and up for O-lineman.

tulexan
01-08-2006, 12:04 AM
Kubiak is a pretty hot commodity right now. I don't think he would have a problem getting another coaching job. Kubiak is going to give his honest opinion about what he believes about Carr and the team, if you can't accept his opinions then that is your problem.

J-Man
01-08-2006, 12:18 AM
And the idea that Kubiak "coached" Elway and Young, while technically true, is probably an overstatement of Kubiak's role, don't you imagine? He was a QB who himself could not make it in the NFL and thus spent a great deal of time with a notebook on the sidelines. THereafter he made a swift transition into coaching at an early age.

I'm not saying he's not good, nor that he doesn't know anything about playing QB in the league, and he may be (probably is) a MUCH BETTER coach than he ever was a player, but you don't cite a couple of his approximate contemporaries who were HOF players as beneficiaries of Kubiak's coaching prowess. At that point he was more like holding their water bottles.

You have got to be kidding, right? As a former athlete that competed at the college and pro level and has done some coaching I might not be able to run a 4.3 40yrd dash...but I can sure build a training plan and guide another more physically talented guy to run that fast.

Most guys who compete at the level of Elway and Young in their prime have to have a talented and dedicated support and coaching staff, it's just that simple.

tulexan
01-08-2006, 12:24 AM
Sounds like he is the kind of coach who really stresses hard work and preparation. Something this team really needs.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/01/04/sports/s133451S26.DTL&hw=Kubiak&sn=001&sc=1000

Hervoyel
01-08-2006, 12:54 AM
Hey "Likeaboss" i just wondered something. Well, two things actually.

1. You have the wrong name on your Vince Young avatar. Just thought I'd let you know that.

2. On your signature "Saints 4 Leinart in '06!" is that a final score? Did you really lose to Matt Leinhart 6-4 last season?



;)

edo783
01-08-2006, 01:08 AM
Sounds like he is the kind of coach who really stresses hard work and preparation. Something this team really needs.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/01/04/sports/s133451S26.DTL&hw=Kubiak&sn=001&sc=1000

Good read. So far, I like everything about the guy. I live in the Denver area and it's been reported that the Broncos expect him to go and that he will take the O-line coach with him and one other, I think the WR coach. I like the idea of getting Denvers Oline coach in the deal.

NFLforher
01-08-2006, 01:25 AM
Ever cross your mind that Gary might say what he thought his interviewers wanted to hear, the better to get his multi-million dollar job?

Some people.


:redtowel:


Like the Texans is the only job offer he can get?

Where have you been? :homer:

NFLforher
01-08-2006, 01:27 AM
I understand that the Texans were 2-14 this year.

I understand that Carr finished in the bottom half of the league statistically this year in many categories.

I understand that part of his near-record sack count this year could be fairly attributed to his own fault.

I understand that he locks onto receivers at times, gets happy feet other times, and has, in virtually every way, not lived up to the expectations that were placed upon him when we drafted him #1 in 2002.

Even in light of these shortcomings, I do not, at the end of the day, understand the criticism of Carr and his abilities as a player.

The guy has played for an absolute joke of a coaching staff, has consistently played behind the worst, most inept line in recent memory, and has dealt with, most recently, injuries to key offensive players and bad personnel decisions the rest of the time.

What quarterback in this league could play better than Carr, under the conditions he has endured?

Then, Kubiak - not an analyst, not a reporter, but a successful offensive coordinator on a repeatedly successful team - takes up for Carr and makes the rightful analysis of his performance, and now all of these experts on this board who have "watched Carr since day one" know better?

The naysayers are right: what the hell does Kubiak know? What does Tony Dungy or Dan Marino know (two of the recent names to support Carr as a player and as a Texan, do I need to round up the other names?)

Get off Young's jock. It is fine to be a fan of Young, and hell, it is fine to be a fan of him taking up a Texan's uniform. But if you are going to discredit Carr, make an attempt to look knowledgeable of the game of football while you do so.


Excellent post. Needs repeating.

El Tejano
01-08-2006, 01:50 AM
For those thinking Kubiak will do to Carr what he did to Plummer, just remember Brian Greise was also and still is a bad QB.

tulexan
01-08-2006, 01:53 AM
Didn't Brian Greise go to the Pro Bowl in 2000?

Grid
01-08-2006, 01:56 AM
yah in 2000 he had a 102 QB rating and threw 19 TDs with only 4 INTs

his stats in Denver are fairly good.

eriadoc
01-08-2006, 02:53 AM
Steve Young had his best year ever under Kubiak's tutelage. Elway put up two of his best statistical years and won two Super Bowls in Kubiak's offense (which also had plenty of other high points as well). After Elway, Brian Griese resembled a good QB under Kubiak's tutelage and did make the Pro Bowl. Plummer had a great year in all regards last year (4000+ yards, 27 TDs) except INTs. This season he finished with 7 interceptions against 18 TDs and a 90.2 passer rating on the season. Plummer's best season with arizona was a 79.6 passer rating. His worst rating with the Broncos is 84.5.

I think it's safe to say that Kubiak has gotten the best from his QBs during his coaching tenure.

eriadoc
01-08-2006, 03:07 AM
And the idea that Kubiak "coached" Elway and Young, while technically true, is probably an overstatement of Kubiak's role, don't you imagine? He was a QB who himself could not make it in the NFL and thus spent a great deal of time with a notebook on the sidelines. THereafter he made a swift transition into coaching at an early age.

I'm not saying he's not good, nor that he doesn't know anything about playing QB in the league, and he may be (probably is) a MUCH BETTER coach than he ever was a player, but you don't cite a couple of his approximate contemporaries who were HOF players as beneficiaries of Kubiak's coaching prowess. At that point he was more like holding their water bottles.

Yeah, Young and Elway were really good on their own. But when Kubiak came in, those two players, who at that point were NOT Hall of Fame locks (maaayybe Elway, with 3 SB losses and marginal TD-INT ratio), had their best seasons EVEr under his coaching. Furthermore, his offenses have proven to be very prolific year after year after year, with even Griese or Plummer at the helm. With Olandis Gary and Mike anderson at the helm. Yeah, Kubiak's had some great players, but he's also turned some less-than-premium talent into premium performers. You have to give credit where it's due.

As to his status as a player ... honestly it has nothing whatsoever to do with his coaching ability. Some players have coaching skills and some do not. The best coaches in the NFL were not exceptional players in their own days. In actuality, Kubiak was a pretty decent QB that probably could have made a better run at it than some of the modern-day guys if there were such a thing as free agency back then, because he wasn't supplanting Elway - no one was.

J-Man
01-08-2006, 09:31 AM
If playing ability had any direct correlation to coaching ability then probably about half of the HCs in the NFL wouldn't have ever gotten hired (see Bill Cowher, Jeff Fisher, and Herm Edwards).

Also...how about guys like Charley Wiess...he never played a down or college football.

Kubes potential as a coach is not tied to the fact that he was a career back-up. In fact if you survive 8yrs in the league period that shows that you have something on the ball as a player anyway.

Kaiser Toro
01-08-2006, 09:50 AM
Yeah, Young and Elway were really good on their own. But when Kubiak came in, those two players, who at that point were NOT Hall of Fame locks (maaayybe Elway, with 3 SB losses and marginal TD-INT ratio), had their best seasons EVEr under his coaching. Furthermore, his offenses have proven to be very prolific year after year after year, with even Griese or Plummer at the helm. With Olandis Gary and Mike anderson at the helm. Yeah, Kubiak's had some great players, but he's also turned some less-than-premium talent into premium performers. You have to give credit where it's due.

As to his status as a player ... honestly it has nothing whatsoever to do with his coaching ability. Some players have coaching skills and some do not. The best coaches in the NFL were not exceptional players in their own days. In actuality, Kubiak was a pretty decent QB that probably could have made a better run at it than some of the modern-day guys if there were such a thing as free agency back then, because he wasn't supplanting Elway - no one was.

I think this is more of a case of someone referencing Young and Elway and implying that Kubiak had something to do with the development of these two established all-pro players, which was not the case. If Plummer and Griese were inserted instead, this would have been a moot point.

I think you will find few who do not want Kubiak, but there are many that want truth in advertising.

Kaiser Toro
01-08-2006, 09:54 AM
If playing ability had any direct correlation to coaching ability then probably about half of the HCs in the NFL wouldn't have ever gotten hired (see Bill Cowher, Jeff Fisher, and Herm Edwards).

Also...how about guys like Charley Wiess...he never played a down or college football.

Kubes potential as a coach is not tied to the fact that he was a career back-up. In fact if you survive 8yrs in the league period that shows that you have something on the ball as a player anyway.

I agree. The guys that practice everyday and taste the drills, but who sit on the sidelines during the games and see the execution or lack thereof get a much better gauge of the game. You develop cereberally rather than emotionally.

eriadoc
01-08-2006, 02:39 PM
I think this is more of a case of someone referencing Young and Elway and implying that Kubiak had something to do with the development of these two established all-pro players, which was not the case. If Plummer and Griese were inserted instead, this would have been a moot point.

I think you will find few who do not want Kubiak, but there are many that want truth in advertising.

I agree to a point, but I also believe that Kubiak did have something to do with their development. He helped Young and Elway go from "Pro Bowl, All-World" QB to "Hall of Fame, Super Bowl-winning, finally took that next step" QBs. As I pointed out previously, those QBs were damn good on their own, but there's no questioning the fact that they each had their best years under Kubiak's tutelage. Kubiak's work with Griese and Plummer just confirms, to me, that those years weren't aberrations. He helped all four QBs take that next step - it's just that the next step for Young and Elway was further along than the other two.

rmartin65
01-08-2006, 05:35 PM
Kubiak is a good QB coach and I want to see what he can do with Carr.

MorKnolle
01-08-2006, 07:53 PM
Kubiak likes Carr, and I think Kubiak is going to be our next coach, and I think as a former QB and a good offensive coordinator that Kubiak will help Carr progress to where he should be and will run an doffense that Carr can put up some great numbers in. Another interesting question though, Kubiak and Denver have never taken a RB in the 1st round, and with three capable RBs already on our team, would bringing Kubiak in mean that we'd be more likely to trade down from the top pick (which I'm a fan of anyways)? Here's a look at Denver's draft picks with Shanahan/Kubiak running the team:
2005
Darrent Williams (CB, 2nd, 56)
Karl Paymah (CB, 3rd, 76)
Domonique Foxworth (CB, 3rd, 97)
Maurice Clarett (RB, 3rd, 101)
Chris Myers (OG, 6th, 200)
Paul Ernester (P, 7th, 239)
2004
D.J. Williams (LB, 1st, 17)
Tatum Bell (RB, 2nd, 41)
Darius Watts (WR, 2nd, 54)
Jeremy LeSueur (DB, 3rd, 85)
Jeff Shoate (CB, 5th, 152)
Triandos Luke (WR, 6th 171)
Josh Sewell (C, 5th 190)
Matt Mauck (QB, 7th, 225)
Brandon Miree (RB, 7th, 247)
Bradlee Van Pelt (QB 7th, 250)
2003
George Foster (OT, 1st, 20)
Terry Pierce (LB, 2nd, 51)
Quentin Griffin (RB, 4th, 108)
Nick Eason (DT, 4th, 114)
Bryant McNeal (DE, 4th, 128)
Ben Claxton (C, 5th, 157)
Adrian Madise (WR, 5th, 158)
Aaron Hunt (DE, 6th, 194)
Clint Mitchell (DE, 7th, 227)
Ahmaad Galloway (RB, 7th, 235)
2002
Ashley Lelie (WR, 1st, 19)
Clinton Portis (RB, 2nd, 51)
Dorsett Davis (DT, 3rd, 96)
Sam Brandon (FS, 4th, 131)
Herb Haygood (WR, 5th, 144)
Jeb Putzier (TE, 6th, 191)
Chris Young (SS, 7th, 228)
Monsanto Pope (DT, 7th, 231)
2001
Willie Middlebrooks (CB, 1st, 24)
Paul Toviessi (DE, 2nd, 51)
Reggie Hayward (DE, 3rd, 87)
Ben Hamilton (OG, 4th, 113)
Nick Harris (P, 4th, 120)
Kevin Kasper (WR, 6th, 190)
2000
Deltha O'Neal (CB, 1st, 15)
Ian Gold (LB, 2nd, 40)
Kenoy Kennedy (SS, 2nd, 45)
Chris Cole (WR, 3rd, 70)
Jerry Johnson (DT, 4th, 101)
Cooper Carlisle (OG, 4th, 112)
Muneer Moore (WR, 5th, 154)
Mike Anderson (FB/RB, 5th, 189)
Jarious Jackson (QB, 7th, 214)
Leroy Fields (WR, 7th, 246)
1999
Al Wilson (LB, 1st, 31)
Montae Reagor (DT, 2nd, 58)
Lennie Friedman (OC, 2nd, 61)
Chris Watson (CB, 3rd, 67)
Travis McGriff (WR, 3rd, 93)
Olandis Gary (RB, 4th, 127)
David Bowens (DE, 5th, 158)
Darwin Brown (CB, 5th, 167)
Desmond Clark (TE, 6th, 179)
Chad Plummer (WR, 6th, 204)
Billy Miller (TE, 7th, 218)
Justin Swift (TE, 7th, 238)
1998
Marcus Nash (WR, 1st, 30)
Eric Brown (SS, 2nd, 61)
Brian Griese (QB, 3rd, 91)
Curtis Alexander (RB, 4th, 122)
Chris Howard (RB, 5th, 153)
Trey Teague (OC, 7th, 200)
Nate Wayne (LB, 7th, 219)
1997
Trevor Pryce (DE, 1st, 28)
Dan Neil (OG, 3rd, 67)
Cory Gilliard (S, 4th, 124)
1996
John Mobley (LB, 1st, 15)
Tory James (CB, 2nd, 44)
Detron Smith (FB, 3rd, 65)
Mark Campbell (DT, 3rd, 78)
Jeff Lewis (QB, 4th, 100)
Darrius Johnson (DB, 4th, 122)
Patrick Jeffers (WR, 5th, 159)
Tony Veland (DB, 6th, 181)
Leslie Ratliffe (OT, 7th, 213)
Chris Banks (OG, 7th, 226)
L.T. Levine (RB, 7th, 235)
Brian Gragert (P, 7th, 236)
1995
Jamie Brown (OT, 4th, 121)
Ken Brown (LB, 4th, 124)
Phil Yeboah-Kodie (LB, 5th, 146)
Fritz Fequiere (OG, 6th, 182)
Terrell Davis (RB, 6th, 196)
Steve Russ (LB, 7th, 218)
Byron Chamberlain (TE, 7th, 222)

A couple patterns that I noticed (granted Shanahan was in control of the team, but Kubiak is his protege):
1st round picks 2 WR, 1 OT, 1 DE, 3 LB, 2 CB - No QBs (granted they had Elway for the first couple years) or RBs in the 1st round.
2nd round picks: 2 RB, 1 WR, 1 OC, 1 DE, 2 LB, 2 CB, 2 S
3rd round picks: 1 QB, 1 RB, 1 FB, 1 WR, 1 OG, 1 DE, 1 DT, 3 CB,

Denver has a habit of making many trades, several including draft picks. They also generally are very good at finding talent in later rounds of the draft, and with their zone blocking they've been able to make 1000 yard rushers out of almost anyone, so Kubiak coming here may swing the team more towards trading down from the #1 pick to look for capable OLinemen for his offensive system and defensive players. I think Domanick Davis could be like Terrell Davis that they had great success with (decent speed but not great, good vision, pretty powerful runner), Jonathan Wells could be like Mike Anderson (big, bruising RB), and Vernand Morency could be like Olandis Gary (little faster than Davis, kind of a mixture of RBs), not to mention they traded Clinton Portis (who some could compare Reggie Bush to) for the best CB in the league because they knew they could run the ball effectively with several other RBs. Another note, Dan Neil was successful in Denver for many years and is still a free agent, so if he can prove that he is healthy Kubiak might bring him with him.

Wordem
01-08-2006, 08:12 PM
McNair cannot afford to lose with Bush. Houstonians will lose interest just like they did this season. The empty seats hurt the bottom line. He has absolutely nothing to lose finaincially if he takes VY. He will increase his fanbase in Texas exponentially. If he takes Bush, this franchise will never compete with the Cowboys for new fans.

OzzO
01-08-2006, 08:36 PM
McNair cannot afford to have another bombing season like this anytime soon - doesn't matter who the players are. Fans are not gonna want to sit and watch another 2-14 team even if they do have a chubber for UT QB.

groutfulone
01-08-2006, 08:41 PM
McNair cannot afford to lose with Bush. Houstonians will lose interest just like they did this season. The empty seats hurt the bottom line. He has absolutely nothing to lose finaincially if he takes VY. He will increase his fanbase in Texas exponentially. If he takes Bush, this franchise will never compete with the Cowboys for new fans.

Yep.

With Bush, Carr and Kubiak they may make the playoffs. With Young, they will eventually win a Super Bowl. If Kubiak can turn a pretty good QB into a pro-bowler, imagine what he could do with a sick freak of nature like Young: turn him into an unbelievable legend of Jordan and Tiger stature?

Bush will not make the Texans into a better team than Young would and why would you pass on a player who may potentially dominate the NFL; who is from Houston and who excites players, fans and opponents. Bush is just a utility back.

TEXANRED
01-08-2006, 09:41 PM
The impressions that I was getting before the Rose Bowl, NFL scouts were looking at Vince as more of a wide receiver than a QB in the NFL. (The little bit that I have read here and there so if anyone has anything to add to that, and I am sure there will be, I would be greatfull)So then he goes out and has a good game against a horribly called Vic Fangio style defense all of a sudden he is a Tiger Woods, an MJ. Really?

I must admit, I am a huge Carr supporter. I have over these last few years battled and argued the case of Carr not only at home, at work, and on this very board. Listening to the people who with great conviction evaluate his talent level and write him off as a bust. Now these very same people are just as passionate about Young as they are against Carr. I must admitt I am awed by some of what is said. Some on this board, at home, at work would like nothing more than to roll Young under the bus and hear his head skip across the ground much like Carr has for the last four years.

Carr is finaly going to get (if kubiack comes to houston)a real coach who knows how to teach a QB to play the position. Look at his coachs for the last four years, Palmer who ruined Couch's career, Pendry, and Capers. Could anyone have a success under those three?

Carr is much like Plummer. Kubiack was able to turn things around for him and I belive he can do the same for Carr. Not to mention the guy who made zone blocking in the NFL famous would be the same guy who would be coaching this team. With the zone block ran correctly there would be plenty of space for Reggie to run around in. Reggie can only run in space seems to be the only thing any Young supporter can say positive about him, well there ya go, he will have space.

bayshorebevo
01-08-2006, 10:06 PM
david is a great guy and i assumed we were taking bush because vince was going back to school. the one thing that vince is, all talent issues aside, is a bonafide winner that carried the horns on his back every big game following the mizzou game last yr (except for a&m game this yr, they almost beat us). i really like david, but i've seen every houston texan as well as every horn play for years and i haven't seen david carry us on his back once. vince has the intangible, the never-say-die attitude that hardly anybody else has.

Runner
01-08-2006, 10:14 PM
McNair cannot afford to lose with Bush. Houstonians will lose interest just like they did this season. The empty seats hurt the bottom line. He has absolutely nothing to lose finaincially if he takes VY. He will increase his fanbase in Texas exponentially. If he takes Bush, this franchise will never compete with the Cowboys for new fans.

The seats would be just as empty if we were to lose with Young. Winning fills the seats; losing empties them.

run-david-run
01-08-2006, 10:26 PM
It is crazy and its is still early in the game with the first quarter finishing on 1/15 with college players having to declare and with our HC horefully in place on 1/16.

There is no doubt that it will continue to be crazy until Tagliabue actually sasys the words, "with the the first pick the....."
You kidding? Its gonna get worse after those words. The only time it will get better is when DC is parading the SB trophy around Reliant

run-david-run
01-08-2006, 10:27 PM
Morency? Morency is not half the player Bush is... Wells probably won't even be on the roster when a new coach comes in. USC definitely made a horrible coaching decision by not playing Bush down the stretch in that game. After he just scored that 26 yard rushing touchdown against Texas (that was USC's longest run by the way, Carrol just completely stopped using him. After he just scored the longest FRICKEN rushing TD for USC he just completely stopped using him.

The coaching decision not to use Bush as any kind of weapon after that TD just completely blew me away, and I just didn't understand it. I mean the dude just scored a fricken TD. He didn't even use Bush as a WR until Vince scored that game winning TD and USC was trying to mount a comeback with no time outs left because it was stupidly blown on that 2 pt conversion.

And if you call 13 carrries for 82 yards @ 6.3 yards per carry 1 TD with 6 catches for 95 yards @ 15.8 yards per catch being covered, then you must be one delusional person. Reggie Bush had more recieving yards than the Texas wide recievers. As for Hollings, he is not even relevant to this kind of talent, so you shouldn't even have mentioned him. I can care less how fast Hollings is, he clearly didn't get it done in college the way Bush has injuries or no injuries.

For three years Bush has proven himself and has gotten better every year. And I think that all this talk since the Rose Bowl about Reggie Bush not being good, is over hyped, and will be a bust because he can't run up the middle crap is gonna motivate him to do well and prove alot of people wrong. He will quiet alot of his critics when he wrecks havoc in the NFL you just wait and see.
Can you really blame Caroll when they score TD's on 4 consecutive posessions? Its not like they were struguling without Reggie, they were dominating...

run-david-run
01-08-2006, 10:29 PM
david is a great guy and i assumed we were taking bush because vince was going back to school. the one thing that vince is, all talent issues aside, is a bonafide winner that carried the horns on his back every big game following the mizzou game last yr (except for a&m game this yr, they almost beat us). i really like david, but i've seen every houston texan as well as every horn play for years and i haven't seen david carry us on his back once. vince has the intangible, the never-say-die attitude that hardly anybody else has.
Hey, the best O-line in college football, great RB's, a system that is taylor made for him and a great D does not hurt. Dc has none of those things...

bayshorebevo
01-08-2006, 10:34 PM
tell me one game dc won by himself

mean mark8
01-08-2006, 10:36 PM
Big stats out of a shotgun offense tailored around Young's strengths.

The name Alex Smith rings a bell to anyone around here?

Lienart is the most prepared QB prospect because he's been running a pro offense at USC for 3 years.

Vince hasn't done it for one season, he will not be prepared to step right in and be more productive than Carr.

Gee, imagine building on offense around a superstar's strengths. Why would anyone do that? Force them into something you want, darn it to heck if they could carry the team playing in an unconventional way. You know it just hasn't worked out for the Falcons has it.

The one thing I see that sets Vince Young light years above David Carr is leadership. If you ask who the leader of the Texans is, David Carr won't even be mentioned. D Rob, Payne, Walker, DD, and maybe even Pitts would get the nod over Carr. Young has leadership ability and would become a leader in year one with the Texans just because of his ability to execute in the crunch. Carr will never be a leader.

zeplin
01-08-2006, 10:37 PM
Right... what would a someone that coached Steve Young and John Elway know about quarterbacks??

That is one of the smartest posts I have seen about David. If Kubiak feels that this kid has chops, and he should know who the hell do we think we are as armchair coaches judging DC. . I say lets just see what kind of QB we really have. Lets get a Good Coach a develope him.

TEXANRED
01-08-2006, 10:40 PM
That is one of the smartest posts I have seen about David. If Kubiak feels that this kid has chops, and he should know who the hell do we think we are as armchair coaches judging DC. . I say lets just see what kind of QB we really have. Lets get a Good Coach a develope him.
Amen brother man.

So I am not alone.

TEXANRED
01-08-2006, 10:42 PM
tell me one game dc won by himself
2003 vs the Falcons when David came off the bench with a torn shoulder and ran 25 yards down the field even taking a direct hit. Setting up the winning score for the Texans.

SnakeOilTanker
01-08-2006, 10:45 PM
tell me one game dc won by himself

Plenty of games at Fresno

Vince hasn't one a game by himself in the NFL. I'll be happy either way. I'm a huge Carr guy, but I'm also a huge VY guy

Whats a better backfield

Vince and DD or
Carr and Reggie

Thats a tough call, but I think I'd give the edge to Carr and Reggie. (DD would still be here with Reggie too...I have heard people talking about a Carr for Ricky Williams trade which would make things interesting)

ArlingtonTexan
01-08-2006, 11:04 PM
The impressions that I was getting before the Rose Bowl, NFL scouts were looking at Vince as more of a wide receiver than a QB in the NFL. (The little bit that I have read here and there so if anyone has anything to add to that, and I am sure there will be, I would be greatfull)So then he goes out and has a good game against a horribly called Vic Fangio style defense all of a sudden he is a Tiger Woods, an MJ. Really?

.

The reviews on Young as QB or WR were mixed after the 2004 season. As 2005 wore on more and more scouts viewed him as a legitimate QB prospect and before the Rose Bowl the scouts looking at Young at WR were a very small minority. The Rose Bowl elimated pretty much any doubters as to whether or not to view VY as a QB or not.

Texanfan4ever
01-08-2006, 11:13 PM
You guys are amazing. David was a Vince Young when he came out of college. Up until the Rose Bowl, Vince was good, and just because of the last few plays he made at the end of the game, he is God. Vince couldn't have done any better than David did for the last 4 years, given what David has been given. Most players out of college don't start. Just like VY will do if he is a Titan. He will sit on the bench for a year at least. David stepped out and if you all remember that first year, got many touchdowns himself. So, most big NFL people see his potential and I want him to have a chance. Is he ruined? I don't think so. His personality is not one of that character. If it was, he would be paralyzed or lame, or in the hospital after being crashed on and put on his back for 4 years. HE DESERVES THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE A GOOD COACH AND A LINE THAT CAN GIVE HIM TIME, and coaches that either give him the option to call plays or know what plays to call. PLEASE, we have had enough of the other. You saw what he could do when he was allowed to read it his way. Just think how great it could be with some options and some time and some GREAT coaches!!!!!

MorKnolle
01-09-2006, 11:32 AM
Another thing about Kubiak coming here, I've heard Shanahan has cleared him to bring in some of the other assistant coaches from Denver to accompany him to Houston. I think I saw it on an article on ESPN.com and I don't remember exactly which coaches were ok'd, but I do remember for sure that the OLine coach was one of them. Denver has run a zone blocking scheme very successfully and has turned many OLinemen into great players, so hopefully (assuming Kubiak comes here) he will at least bring this coach with and he will help turn our OLine into something special, and he'll probably realize how bad some of our OLinemen are and how poorly they were coached thusfar, and maybe encourage the Texans to trade down and pick up some better OLinemen high in the draft and/or emphasize the need in free agency and bring in LeCharles Bentley.

texan279
01-09-2006, 11:36 AM
Another thing about Kubiak coming here, I've heard Shanahan has cleared him to bring in some of the other assistant coaches from Denver to accompany him to Houston. I think I saw it on an article on ESPN.com and I don't remember exactly which coaches were ok'd, but I do remember for sure that the OLine coach was one of them. Denver has run a zone blocking scheme very successfully and has turned many OLinemen into great players, so hopefully (assuming Kubiak comes here) he will at least bring this coach with and he will help turn our OLine into something special, and he'll probably realize how bad some of our OLinemen are and how poorly they were coached thusfar, and maybe encourage the Texans to trade down and pick up some better OLinemen high in the draft and/or emphasize the need in free agency and bring in LeCharles Bentley.

You're making me drool all over the keyboard! :drool:

Jack Bauer
01-09-2006, 11:36 AM
Gary knows whats best for Gary and if that is telling Mr. McNair/Cass what they want to hear about Carr, then he will do it. I have never seen so many people look the other way on such a fruitless pick.

If Gary is doing this for Gary, then he must believe in Carr. I don't think he would say this just to get the job. The QB position is too important and his success as HC depends on it. BTW, I don't think McNair is looking for a "yes man".

texan279
01-09-2006, 11:45 AM
If Gary is doing this for Gary, then he must believe in Carr. I don't think he would say this just to get the job. The QB position is too important and his success as HC depends on it. BTW, I don't think McNair is looking for a "yes man".

If Gary is doing this for Gary, why wouldn't he have done this the first time he interviewed? I am tired of hearing Kubiak is just saying what McNair wants to hear.

Buffi2
01-09-2006, 11:48 AM
If Gary Kubiak says Carr is going to be good - then I will trust his judgement. If Kubiak thinks he can take this team to the playoffs and/or beyond with Carr instead of Young - then so be it. I may not be thrilled with the idea of Young becoming a Titan - but Kubiak knows a whole bunch more than I do (I couldn't necessarily say that about Capers). I think if Kubiak gets the job, he is going to move heaven and earth to be successful here - he certainly doesn't want to fail. That being said, why would he pick Carr over Young if he didn't think he could win with Carr? Makes no sense.

Vinny
01-09-2006, 11:51 AM
If Gary Kubiak says Carr is going to be good - then I will trust his judgement. Kubiak/Reeves thought Tommy Maddux was a franchise QB too...that didn't work out so well, so don't just blindly trust that since these guys coached Elway that they had anything to do with Elway being great.

chuckm
01-09-2006, 12:00 PM
Kubiak/Reeves thought Tommy Maddux was a franchise QB too...that didn't work out so well, so don't just blindly trust that since these guys coached Elway that they had anything to do with Elway being great.

I'm pretty sure that you could pick any former coach out of the Hall of Fame and find some bad decisions .... Lombardi? Landry? Noll? Walsh? all of them had some .... however, it's self-serving for anyone of this board to think that they're more qualified to evaluate football talent than Dan Reeves ....

titan hater
01-09-2006, 01:05 PM
I'm pretty sure that you could pick any former coach out of the Hall of Fame and find some bad decisions .... Lombardi? Landry? Noll? Walsh? all of them had some .... however, it's self-serving for anyone of this board to think that they're more qualified to evaluate football talent than Dan Reeves ....

agreed!!

thunderkyss
01-09-2006, 01:34 PM
saying Kubiak had anything to do with the greatness of Young is like saying Phil Jackson had to do with the greatness of MJ.....great players make great coaches.


Now we need to define great players, and great coaches. Larry Brown is a great coach, and Allan Iverson is a great player, but together, they didn't get too far. If Larry Brown could've got the kid to practice, and built a team to work around him, then we truly would've seen a Great Coach, and a Great Player.

tulexan
01-09-2006, 01:36 PM
Larry Brown got them to the Finals. Larry Brown just left after getting tired with the team like he does with every team after a few years.

Texans Horror
01-09-2006, 02:41 PM
I'm hoping for a Popovich-type coach, somebody who can work with great players, but can really improve a bench. Oh, wait - we're talking football...

The metaphors work, though.

With still about two and a half months before the draft, I think it will be Kubiak and Bush. We'll see what happens when the Texans bring in the new coach.

U4ikrob
01-09-2006, 05:19 PM
I keep seeing all these comparisons between DC and VY and honestly they are
Nice comparisons - but hardly fair ones. Perhaps if you flipped the two guys and put Young with the Texans O-line, players and coaches, then you might see a different Vince Young. You might see how he could struggle just like any other good QB would do put into a bad situation and expected to produce results. For those who keep beating the stats drum maybe you should go back and compare numbers that can more closely be compared. How about comparing Carr's senior year and body of work at Fresno versus Young at UT.

Honestly - Every QB is going to make some mistakes - but is he talented enough to overcome them? Is there enough talent around the QB to succeed or is a lack of talent dragging him down and cutting his feet out from under him? Time will tell obviously - IMO Kubiak has shown to be a good person in developing QB's of nominal up to exceptional skill levels and think he would provide a great coach and mentor to a young, talented but battered QB like Carr. If Kubiak is picked I predict he will put together a team to support Carr to be the good passing QB he has shown to be when given time to produce.

As for Young - I keep hearing Michael Vick comparisons to Young - but honestly Vick IMO hasnt exactly lit up the NFL either. He's got some wins from his physical skills to be sure, but overall he's shown to be inconsistent and an average cerebral QB with good physical skills, but not a very accurate passer. Honestly I dont know that Vince Young will be doing much different than Vick in the NFL from what ive seen of him thuis far in college. But if I had to guess I would say they are pretty close comparisons. Young's got the skills - now its up to him to take it to the next level - He could be special or he could be another Ryan Leaf - Let's see how he looks at the senior bowl and combine.

My Team 2 cents - I would take Kubiak as our coach

SESupergenius
01-09-2006, 08:05 PM
Kubiak/Reeves thought Tommy Maddux was a franchise QB too...that didn't work out so well, so don't just blindly trust that since these guys coached Elway that they had anything to do with Elway being great.
That had to do with Terrell Davis than it did Kubiak/Reeves or Shanahan. Make no mistake about it, it's a team game and Carr isn't going to do it alone. Niether is V. Young. You take away a 1st round pick for the offense or take away some of the potential picks you would have gotten from a trade down and Carr is set up to fail.

real
01-09-2006, 08:10 PM
[QUOTE=NFLforher]http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3571013.html


Kubiak has become known as an expert mentor for quarterbacks and sees potential in Houston's David Carr.

"He's got tremendous ability, and we all know he's a great kid," Kubiak said. "He'd be a joy to work with, and he's got some weapons around him to make him better. Through a lot of hard work, there's another level there for him to reach."
QUOTE]

What else is he supposed to say...?

real
01-09-2006, 08:20 PM
Hip Hop and the rest of the Young Lovers:


1) Keep in mind, USC gave up 42 against Fresno State and Fresno State had 5 turnovers in the second half.

2) VY had a great game against a sorry defense.

3)VY is a project. If he runs, he will get killed..... he same as Vick. Throwing at UT is not throwing in the NFL.

4)Texans should focus on getting a quality o-line. It is amazing what happens to the throwing game when the running game is better.

-So Fresno State's offense is better than UT's ???

-VY had a great game against most including ohio state

-VY is 6'5'' 230lbs. How is that like Vick ??? Vick used to take shots in college, When have you seen VY Get hit?? And nothing in college is like the NFL so what are you saying

-Just like VY isn's a sure thing neither is your "quality o-line", in my opinion neither of the top tackles in the draft have dramatically set their selves apart from the others, so in my opinion we can get your "quality" o-line later...And if Im not mistaken our running game wasn't the main problem this season...

Hervoyel
01-09-2006, 08:39 PM
Kubiak/Reeves thought Tommy Maddux was a franchise QB too...that didn't work out so well, so don't just blindly trust that since these guys coached Elway that they had anything to do with Elway being great.


From everything I can find Kubiak never coached Maddox so I don't understand why this has come up. He was a backup QB for the Broncos from 1983-1991, then he went to coach QB's at A&M from 1992-93. Following that he joined the 49ers staff. He didn't come back to the Broncos until 1995. Tommy Maddox was gone two years before Kubiak returned to the Broncos organization.

In light of what happened to Maddox later in his career with Pittsburgh I'd say that Reeves did see something in Tommy Maddox that wasn't just his imagination. When you consider the relative performances given by Young, Elway, Brian Greise and Jake Plummer I think that Tommy Maddox might have fared better if Kubiak had been there while he was a Bronco.

HOOK'EM
01-18-2006, 05:31 AM
Kubiak will make every thing better.