PDA

View Full Version : My take on the Carr / Young / Bush Debate


Dime
01-06-2006, 04:43 PM
First off, let me say this.

Vince can run the ball... so can Carr (maybe not as much as juker as Young, but he does a good job)
Vince has a strong arm... so does Carr
Vince is a good leader... so is Carr.
Vince is a play-maker... sorry folks, but SO IS CARR.

You all have to understand. I really dont want Carr because I think he hasnt improved, however,

The only difference I see between the two is Vince seems to makes better decisions, better reads, and better ball placement. This is big to the effect that he already beats Carr on these as a junior. That being said, Even though I would LOVE to have him, we cannot take Vince Young. Why might you ask.

Sadly, we have all seen what happen to Vick, McNabb, and the like. Running QB's, while great, have been eventually get torpedoed and hurt. Carr has even got torpedoed, but is stout enough to get back up, which doesnt happen often. If they dont have a O-line. Then the chances are greater of them getting it. If we dont invest in a O-Line this year, then even Carr has a good chance of not getting up very often next year.

Running QB's are fun to watch, but arent fun to watch when your paying them 50+ million to sit on the bench hurt because we havent addressed thier protection. By the way for the Bush Mongers.. Bush goes nowhere without holes. If you want to see why Bush did as well has he did. Watch the videos and NOT look at Bush, but at his supporting cast. He is Awesome, but he has alot of help.

rmartin65
01-06-2006, 04:46 PM
First off, let me say this.

Vince can run the ball... so can Carr (maybe not as much as juker as Young, but he does a good job)
Vince has a strong arm... so does Carr
Vince is a good leader... so is Carr.
Vince is a play-maker... sorry folks, but SO IS CARR.

You all have to understand. I really dont want Carr because I think he hasnt improved, however,

The only difference I see between the two is Vince seems to makes better decisions, better reads, and better ball placement. This is big to the effect that he already beats Carr on these as a junior. That being said, Even though I would LOVE to have him, we cannot take Vince Young. Why might you ask.

Sadly, we have all seen what happen to Vick, McNabb, and the like. Running QB's, while great, have been eventually get torpedoed and hurt. Carr has even got torpedoed, but is stout enough to get back up, which doesnt happen often. If they dont have a O-line. Then the chances are greater of them getting it. If we dont invest in a O-Line this year, then even Carr has a good chance of not getting up very often next year.

Running QB's are fun to watch, but arent fun to watch when your paying them 50+ million to sit on the bench hurt because we havent addressed thier protection. By the way for the Bush Mongers.. Bush goes nowhere without holes. If you want to see why Bush did as well has he did. Watch the videos and NOT look at Bush, but at his supporting cast. He is Awesome, but he has alot of help.
Great post, you have a lot of support and I agree 100%.

titan hater
01-06-2006, 04:47 PM
First off, let me say this.

Vince can run the ball... so can Carr (maybe not as much as juker as Young, but he does a good job)
Vince has a strong arm... so does Carr
Vince is a good leader... so is Carr.
Vince is a play-maker... sorry folks, but SO IS CARR.

You all have to understand. I really dont want Carr because I think he hasnt improved, however,

The only difference I see between the two is Vince seems to makes better decisions, better reads, and better ball placement. This is big to the effect that he already beats Carr on these as a junior. That being said, Even though I would LOVE to have him, we cannot take Vince Young. Why might you ask.

Sadly, we have all seen what happen to Vick, McNabb, and the like. Running QB's, while great, have been eventually get torpedoed and hurt. Carr has even got torpedoed, but is stout enough to get back up, which doesnt happen often. If they dont have a O-line. Then the chances are greater of them getting it. If we dont invest in a O-Line this year, then even Carr has a good chance of not getting up very often next year.

Running QB's are fun to watch, but arent fun to watch when your paying them 50+ million to sit on the bench hurt because we havent addressed thier protection. By the way for the Bush Mongers.. Bush goes nowhere without holes. If you want to see why Bush did as well has he did. Watch the videos and NOT look at Bush, but at his supporting cast. He is Awesome, but he has alot of help.

I would think the difference between Pro and Collage is the deciding factor. Remember that Carr was very good in collage as well....

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2006, 04:47 PM
Agree. When the stock recipe includes emotion, potential cap hell and not addressing your needs you are essentially killing the soup.

HoustonFrog
01-06-2006, 04:49 PM
Nice post but IMHO you are off on the list of intanglibles. Carr is not a leader and I bet if you took a private poll he would not be the guy they look too for leadership. The same was just said on 790. Vince is a leader and a winner. With all that said I think the smart move is Bush followed by O-lineman in the early to mid rounds.

titan hater
01-06-2006, 04:51 PM
Nice post but IMHO you are off on the list of intanglible. Carr is not a leader and I bet if you took a private poll he would not be the guy they look too for leadership. The same was just said on 790. Vince is a leader and a winner. With all that said I think the smart move is Bush followed by O-lineman in the early to mid rounds.


I agree with you on the smart move...

dirty steve
01-06-2006, 04:52 PM
Nice post but IMHO you are off on the list of intanglible. Carr is not a leader and I bet if you took a private poll he would not be the guy they look too for leadership. The same was just said on 790. Vince is a leader and a winner. With all that said I think the smart move is Bush followed by O-lineman in the early to mid rounds.

i like bush then O-line/TE in 2 out of the 3 picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

ronaldod1
01-06-2006, 04:55 PM
Drafting Vince Young would be a mistake. Sure he is a dynamic player at the college level, but how many games in the NFL is he going to run for 200 yards, not throw a touchdown and his team puts up 40+ points. He is slower and does not have the arm of Mike Vick, and Vick is not even considered (by many) to be a top tier NFL QB. You look at the top QB's in the league: Manning, Brady, Hasselbeck, Palmer etc. All pocket passers. The mobile quarterback has become an overrated commondity due to the fact that it just looks pretty. There are too many needs on this team to take a gamble on a guy like Young who is nowhere close to being ready to make an impact in the NFL. Quarterbacks thrive in systems, not on their own gifts. I say draft Reggie or trade down to solidify the team as a whole.

Honoring Earl 34
01-06-2006, 04:55 PM
:redtowel: I believe your batting 500 . I'm not sure I've seen leadership , in fact I think OLs kill for their QB in games if they believe he can win it for them . Of course if their going to get blamed because their QB refuses to get rid of the ball ( the only think I can think of is he 's saving his QB rating ) then they expect the worse .

How many 4th quarter comebacks does Carr have in 4 years ?

wenskek
01-06-2006, 05:01 PM
i am sorry, but i have not really even seen any leadership out of carr, especially this past season. this past season all i saw carr do was make those stupid faces and throw his arms in the air. come to think of it carr really wasn't even a playmaker this past season.

texans281
01-06-2006, 05:02 PM
Carr played in the WAC and never won anything

Young played in the Big 12 and won it as well as the National Championship

Honoring Earl 34
01-06-2006, 05:11 PM
:redtowel: How many good years has Carr had since he entered Fresno State . If I'm not mistaken its ONE .

I think your best QBs come out of power house programs where being OK is not an option . Then you may be ready to lead a NFL team and the pressures that come with it .

ps yes there are exceptions .

SESupergenius
01-06-2006, 05:15 PM
Carr played in the WAC and never won anything

Young played in the Big 12 and won it as well as the National Championship
There are tons of QB's that win the national champship in College and didn't do a thing in the NFL, do you want me to give you names? There are also tons of QB's in the NFL that didn't win "anything" in college.

You need to do a little history and put away the burnt orange glasses for a while.

TheOgre
01-06-2006, 05:20 PM
Elway never went to a bowl game at Stanford (thanks to the band).

Honoring Earl 34
01-06-2006, 05:24 PM
:tv: During Elways day they only about 6 . I don't think they had corperate sponsers either .

SESupergenius
01-06-2006, 05:32 PM
Steve Young should have led his team to the national championships when he was in college, being in the WAC and all.

bckey
01-06-2006, 05:32 PM
Agree. When the stock recipe includes emotion, potential cap hell and not addressing your needs you are essentially killing the soup.


Bush and Young are both in positions that we don't need and that we have a lot of cap money already tied up in. So you have to be in the camp of trading down.

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2006, 05:34 PM
Bush and Young are both in positions that we don't need and that we have a lot of cap money already tied up in. So you have to be in the camp of trading down.

Absolutley.

Hookem Horns
01-06-2006, 05:38 PM
Leadership? Guess who said this... "It's not a must win but it is a must play well". You can have that kind of defeatist leadership.

Young would NEVER make a comment like that.

Htown34s
01-06-2006, 05:42 PM
Vince is a good leader... so is Carr.
Vince is a play-maker... sorry folks, but SO IS CARR.


I respectfully disagree with these two points.

Runner
01-06-2006, 06:09 PM
Carr played in the WAC and never won anything

Young played in the Big 12 and won it as well as the National Championship

If I follow your logic about the value of a National Championships:

If USC had succeeded on their final 4th and 1, then Young would be less of a QB because USC would have run out the clock.

Sorry, I don't see how USC gaining another 6 inches should affect any evaluation about Young. I don't think that championship thing holds much water.

tulexan
01-06-2006, 06:11 PM
Not only that, but if Darnell Bing didn't get called for facemask, then who knows what would have happened. They would have had 4th and 5 on the 30 yard line rather than 1st and 10 from the 25.

Dime
01-06-2006, 06:12 PM
If you mean by leader to be a class act guy on and off the field and is always staying possative, a guy that gives the team and media all the time they want to spend with him, claps his hands and says "lets go" when things get bad and is the guy that breaks the huddle with a word of encouragement before the game then yes he is a leader of this team.

I would hate to hear what your idea of a leader is.
And if it is wins then you will have to waite a while because they have not givin him anything to work with yet.

Since I am getting bashed for my saying 'Carr is a Leader', you all need to look at it a bit. He is. He isnt the greatest leader of all time, or even the best on the team, but he is a leader on the team and helps rally the team. I didnt say he does a good job of it, or his people 'believe' in him. He just works the role he has too.

Honoring Earl 34
01-06-2006, 08:39 PM
:tv: Watching players in a game is like watching my kids at the playground you know pretty quick who's the neat kid ,who's the nerd kid getting picked last , who's going to get picked on .

BREAZE
01-06-2006, 08:46 PM
A leader has respect and faith from his team members. Carr is not a leader. If they don't draft VY the better find a leader fast because you can't win a championship without one...

GP
01-06-2006, 09:06 PM
Drum roll please........

Carr did pretty dadgum well his first three seasons in terms of leading and taking the franchise onto his shoulders.

He, along with THE REST OF THIS TEAM, gave up on the coaching staff and its philosophy at the conclusion of last season's Cleveland game at home...the game that was the straw that broke the Carr's back. And there isn't anybody on this team or any other team who could have been a true leader during this poisonous season of doom, a season where ALL knew that Capers had reached the end of the line.

Look at Carr's one-on-one JUKE and TD run against the Saints a few seasons back. Look at Carr manning up and getting the TD at home against Jacksonville on 4th down by jumping up and over the pile as time expired. Look at Carr racing down the field after coming back from shoulder injury, gaining HUGE yardage and re-injuring his shoulder again. Look at Carr this season running for first downs when no receiver was open. Look at Carr swatting his o linemen on the rear and on the helmet and saying, "It's OK..." on Sunday night football this season when the o line looked like a screen door on a submarine. Who wouldn't throw their hands up? Who wouldn't, from time to time, just make an ugly face after a receiver drops a perfect pass with no defender around them...on a key third down for pete's sake?

What we've just witnessed is the exit of a great "foundational" head coach...a guy who started strong but whose coaching style on both defense and offense has pretty much thrusted us into a new era.

And this new era is one in which a whole new coaching staff will rally behind a guy like Carr who is more than capable of making some plays. Don't think for one second that it's lost on Dan Reeves AND Kubiak that Carr called the plays in one half and set a franchise record for points in a half, am I correct? And the next half, the stats looked pretty dismal for a coaching staff who called the plays and got the same old sad results as they have this whole season when they were calling the plays and acting as if Carr was a baby who couldn't do it on his own or do the majority of it himself, at least.

Man, it was Bush-Bush-Bush-Bush-Bush-Bush forever around here.

And over the past few dyas it has been Young-Young-Young-Young-Young-Young.

I guess in a few days it's going to be Bush-Young-Bush-Young-Bush-Young.

I'm in camp No. 3 that says "Trade the pick and get the 'Brick."

Let's see what Carr can do. I still have faith in him.

thunderkyss
01-06-2006, 09:13 PM
Not only that, but if Darnell Bing didn't get called for facemask, then who knows what would have happened. They would have had 4th and 5 on the 30 yard line rather than 1st and 10 from the 25.


Are you crazy?? if he didn't grab the face mask, he'd have been drug to the 15. Well, actually we'll never ever know, because he did grab the face mask, thereby gaining an unfair advantage. IMO, it was more than the 5 yard variety, but that's ok.

thunderkyss
01-06-2006, 09:20 PM
If you mean by leader to be a class act guy on and off the field and is always staying possative, a guy that gives the team and media all the time they want to spend with him, claps his hands and says "lets go" when things get bad and is the guy that breaks the huddle with a word of encouragement before the game then yes he is a leader of this team.

I would hate to hear what your idea of a leader is.
And if it is wins then you will have to waite a while because they have not givin him anything to work with yet.

To be a good leader, every now and again, your going to have to be the bad guy. Someone needs to get into the face of the Houston Texans and say "I won't allow you to loose another game" It should be the coach, but I really think he stopped trying a long time ago.

I don't know if Vince has got that, But I know when the game is on the line, His team mates look at him. "Vince, I can't hold this guy..... He's to fast.. I need help" Vince says, "push him wide right, and don't worry, I got you"

Right now, Our guys are looking for someone to help them, but on the field, their ain't no one.

outofhnd
01-06-2006, 09:24 PM
Amen why put even more money on 2 rookies who look snazzy in college you know what word raises doubt about me when people talk about reggie bush? "DYNAMIC" When people say that I recall

Michael vick the "DYNAMIC" QB who still hasnt put the whole package after 5 seasons in the NFL...

Leonard Davis the "DYNAMIC" Left tackle who has played RG for 3 seasons with the Cardinals..

Sean Taylor the "DYNAMIC" Safety for the redskins who has had a few flashes of brilliance, but offseason distractions and some poor decisions have kinda dwindled his stock..

Charles Rogers the "DYNAMIC" wideout who after 3 years still has yet to play a full season of NFL football.

It seems like DYNAMIC players tend to have flashes of greatness at the most but cannot compete with the monotanus standard which great players come from. Dynamic players are the best athletes you have ever seen, but usually have injuries that hinder them from being all time greats...

Bo Jackson, Gale Sayers, Ernie Brown, Al Toon, Andre Rison are a few others that could have been great but injuries stopped them from reaching their full potential..

HoustonFan
01-06-2006, 09:25 PM
Drum roll please........

Carr did pretty dadgum well his first three seasons in terms of leading and taking the franchise onto his shoulders.

He, along with THE REST OF THIS TEAM, gave up on the coaching staff and its philosophy at the conclusion of last season's Cleveland game at home...the game that was the straw that broke the Carr's back. And there isn't anybody on this team or any other team who could have been a true leader during this poisonous season of doom, a season where ALL knew that Capers had reached the end of the line.

Look at Carr's one-on-one JUKE and TD run against the Saints a few seasons back. Look at Carr manning up and getting the TD at home against Jacksonville on 4th down by jumping up and over the pile as time expired. Look at Carr racing down the field after coming back from shoulder injury, gaining HUGE yardage and re-injuring his shoulder again. Look at Carr this season running for first downs when no receiver was open. Look at Carr swatting his o linemen on the rear and on the helmet and saying, "It's OK..." on Sunday night football this season when the o line looked like a screen door on a submarine. Who wouldn't throw their hands up? Who wouldn't, from time to time, just make an ugly face after a receiver drops a perfect pass with no defender around them...on a key third down for pete's sake?

What we've just witnessed is the exit of a great "foundational" head coach...a guy who started strong but whose coaching style on both defense and offense has pretty much thrusted us into a new era.

And this new era is one in which a whole new coaching staff will rally behind a guy like Carr who is more than capable of making some plays. Don't think for one second that it's lost on Dan Reeves AND Kubiak that Carr called the plays in one half and set a franchise record for points in a half, am I correct? And the next half, the stats looked pretty dismal for a coaching staff who called the plays and got the same old sad results as they have this whole season when they were calling the plays and acting as if Carr was a baby who couldn't do it on his own or do the majority of it himself, at least.

Man, it was Bush-Bush-Bush-Bush-Bush-Bush forever around here.

And over the past few dyas it has been Young-Young-Young-Young-Young-Young.

I guess in a few days it's going to be Bush-Young-Bush-Young-Bush-Young.

I'm in camp No. 3 that says "Trade the pick and get the 'Brick."

Let's see what Carr can do. I still have faith in him.


^5, man.

real
01-06-2006, 09:26 PM
If you mean by leader to be a class act guy on and off the field and is always staying possative, a guy that gives the team and media all the time they want to spend with him, claps his hands and says "lets go" when things get bad and is the guy that breaks the huddle with a word of encouragement before the game then yes he is a leader of this team.

I would hate to hear what your idea of a leader is.
And if it is wins then you will have to waite a while because they have not givin him anything to work with yet.
Carr isn't a leader...If he was such a great leader like you say he is, don't you think more players would have come forth and supported their "leader"...With all this speculation going about with reggie bush, vince young, Carrs option...Great leaders don't have these debates...You think that if Mack Brown wanted to sit VY, any guys would come forth...Heck Jake the snake would get more team support than Carr...To be a leader you need the respect of your teamates, otherwise who are you leading?

real
01-06-2006, 09:29 PM
Amen why put even more money on 2 rookies who look snazzy in college you know what word raises doubt about me when people talk about reggie bush? "DYNAMIC" When people say that I recall

Michael vick the "DYNAMIC" QB who still hasnt put the whole package after 5 seasons in the NFL...

Leonard Davis the "DYNAMIC" Left tackle who has played RG for 3 seasons with the Cardinals..

Sean Taylor the "DYNAMIC" Safety for the redskins who has had a few flashes of brilliance, but offseason distractions and some poor decisions have kinda dwindled his stock..

Charles Rogers the "DYNAMIC" wideout who after 3 years still has yet to play a full season of NFL football.

It seems like DYNAMIC players tend to have flashes of greatness at the most but cannot compete with the monotanus standard which great players come from. Dynamic players are the best athletes you have ever seen, but usually have injuries that hinder them from being all time greats...

Bo Jackson, Gale Sayers, Ernie Brown, Al Toon, Andre Rison are a few others that could have been great but injuries stopped them from reaching their full potential..
So your philosophy is to pick the WORST player and hope for the best ?

Tulip
01-06-2006, 09:32 PM
If you mean by leader to be a class act guy on and off the field and is always staying possative

You can't possibly be talking about David Carr. I've watched him rip at his chin strap, angrily spike the ball, and hang is head down way too many times to think that he's a leader who inspires other players (or the fans).

I haven't really been very down on David Carr over this season, given all of the coaching defects I blamed - and I think he will improve greatly with better coaching. But I wouldn't call him a leader.

thunderkyss
01-06-2006, 09:32 PM
Drum roll please........

Carr did pretty dadgum well his first three seasons in terms of leading and taking the franchise onto his shoulders.

He, along with THE REST OF THIS TEAM, gave up on the coaching staff and its philosophy at the conclusion of last season's Cleveland game at home...the game that was the straw that broke the Carr's back. And there isn't anybody on this team or any other team who could have been a true leader during this poisonous season of doom, a season where ALL knew that Capers had reached the end of the line.


If any of this is true, then I definitely want hime gone. Don't like what the coach is doing, when it's your time in the huddle, call the play you want..... kinda like what peyton does. It isn't that hard to do, especially if you have a number of players with the same attitude. You want the coach out of there, you can do like Kobe did, and get you an a new coach.

I honestly don't think our team sucked, because the guys gave up on their coach. That''s not what a leader should do, lay down like that...

Tulip
01-06-2006, 09:36 PM
Drum roll please........

Carr did pretty dadgum well his first three seasons in terms of leading and taking the franchise onto his shoulders.

He, along with THE REST OF THIS TEAM, gave up on the coaching staff and its philosophy at the conclusion of last season's Cleveland game at home...the game that was the straw that broke the Carr's back. And there isn't anybody on this team or any other team who could have been a true leader during this poisonous season of doom, a season where ALL knew that Capers had reached the end of the line.

And contrast this with the quarterback who INSPIRED his coach to become a better coach - a championship coach.

real
01-06-2006, 09:41 PM
I dont know about that, but you definitely shouldn't give up because you and the coaches aren't seeing eye to eye...Don't make exscuses for DC...No one makes exscuses for the o-line

Grid
01-06-2006, 09:41 PM
dont forget the time that he died for all of our sins too.

real
01-06-2006, 09:41 PM
lol

GP
01-06-2006, 09:42 PM
I don't even know what to say........

The pro-Bush camp hates on DD, or at the very "best" says that an extra RB will help us all the way around.

The pro-Young camp hates on Carr, or at the very "best" says that Young on the bench and Carr on the chopping block will help us all the way around.

But there's very few here who are passionately defending the talent that we HAVE drafted in the first round, the guys who are talented and who have earned their keep thus far.

Instead, it's Bush and/or Young who is the "REAL" deal and who will be a for-sure Pro-Bowler and franchise savior.

So next year, we'll see posts and threads about how the next big draft prospect who won the Heisman or won the championship game is definitely the guy we need to put us over the top. Right?

And the Texans, in four seasons, have YET to spend a first round draft pick on an offensive lineman. I guess in FOUR YEARS of drafts, there has yet to be an offensive lineman worth taking in one of the first 32 draft picks?

Two offensive playmakers: Carr and AJ (both first rounders)

Two defensive players: Dunta and TJ (both first rounders)

And hopefully, this draft will be a draft where we see a first round pick of an o lineman worth taking in the top 5. A left-side anchor for this team to build around and get some respect back.

outofhnd
01-06-2006, 09:44 PM
So your philosophy is to pick the WORST player and hope for the best ?

No my philosophy is pick the player who people say "Has great fundamentals" or Consistent performer who will have a long career in the NFL,

Jerome Bettis, Curtis Martin, Emmitt Smith, Troy Aikman, Anthony Munoz, Tony Boselli, Brett Favre.. They were not deemed DYNAMIC... to me DYNAMIC is basically saying has athletic gifts that you cant really exploit at the pro level on a consistent basis.. To me it means he will be marginally effective not someone who will be a consistent top tier performer, and pro Bowler...

So what I am saying is Pick DBRick who has great fundamentals and should have a long career instead of Reggie Bush Who could be a flash in the pan running back who never reaches his full potential..

real
01-06-2006, 09:46 PM
Who's earned their keep ? Not DD Not The QB and Not 10 guys on defense...Three players have earned their keep...AJ, D-rob, And Mathis...Not Mr. I couldn't lead if I had Too, and mr. 1000 yards aint what it used to be...Honestly, even if we don't get Bush or Young this year, I think you all should look out for those guys to get replaced in the very near future...

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2006, 09:46 PM
:tv: Watching players in a game is like watching my kids at the playground you know pretty quick who's the neat kid ,who's the nerd kid getting picked last , who's going to get picked on .

Speculation? Yes. Intuition? Yes. DC has not shown anything tangibly or intangibly that could possibly deem as a leader.

thunderkyss
01-06-2006, 09:49 PM
Like I said, I'd like Carr to be a Texan for life, but Vince is the one player that can improve our team. We don't need to get three Offensive Linemen who will have to learn to play quick....... we can get one, who can be groomed.
And we've got an opportunity to take him. We've got a new Coach coming in, you're foolish to think we aren't going into rebuilding. I'd rather build around Vince, than to try to rebuild around Carr. I'd rather rebuild around a Quarterback, than to rebuild around a running back. No offense to Bush. If we didn't have DD, VM, and JW, it'd be a little harder decision. But now, we've got to bite the bullet, and let Carr go to someone else. Of course we won't give him away. We'll get compensated pretty well, it'll hurt us money wise for a little while, but I'm sure we'll be ok.

GP
01-06-2006, 09:50 PM
"If any of this is true, then I definitely want hime gone. Don't like what the coach is doing, when it's your time in the huddle, call the play you want..... kinda like what peyton does. It isn't that hard to do, especially if you have a number of players with the same attitude. You want the coach out of there, you can do like Kobe did, and get you an a new coach.

I honestly don't think our team sucked, because the guys gave up on their coach. That''s not what a leader should do, lay down like that..." -- thunderkyss

--------------------

You'd never make it in the military with this mindset. You'd never make it in a real jobplace environment with this mindset. You don't cut someone's throat to get your own way.

Kobe? You're touting Kobe as a model of excellent leadership? Pardon me for a sec, but that guy is FAILING badly. He's pretty much the joke of the league right now. No way is this a guy who should be held up on a pedestal for even his on-court theatrics, let alone his personal life. Yeah, he's a champion. LOL.

Peyton is a company man. Carr is a company man. Two different companies, ran by two different people. One boss allows the QB to improvise. Another coach didn't allow ONE BIT of improvisation until Dan Reeves stepped onto the scene. Think that was a mere coincidence? Not.

Heck, call me what you want or act like I'm a fool all you want...but I respect the heck out of Carr and all the other players for that matter for NOT throwing capers under the bus like they do in Oakland and Detroit.

Yeah, I'll stand on that: Carr is a respectable leader. And I doubt he loses sleep over what Thunderkyss says about him.

stevo3883
01-06-2006, 09:50 PM
"to me DYNAMIC is basically saying has athletic gifts that you cant really exploit at the pro level on a consistent basis.. "


wtf??

a dynamic player would be someone like Randy Moss, LT, Terrell Owens.. a guy that is explosive and can go the distance at any moment. he makes defenses CHANGE their gameplans just for him.

how could you possibly interpret dynamic as being a negative label?

real
01-06-2006, 09:53 PM
[QUOTE=outofhnd]No my philosophy is pick the player who people say "Has great fundamentals" or Consistent performer who will have a long career in the NFL,

Jerome Bettis, Curtis Martin, Emmitt Smith, Troy Aikman, Anthony Munoz, Tony Boselli, Brett Favre.. They were not deemed DYNAMIC... to me DYNAMIC is basically saying has athletic gifts that you cant really exploit at the pro level on a consistent basis.. To me it means he will be marginally effective not someone who will be a consistent top tier performer, and pro Bowler...

[QUOTE=outofhnd]

1) Judge for yourself, why are you using other peoples opinions?
2)Tony Boselli ?
3) Have you seen D'brick play Vs. Watching anybody else in the top ten play ?
You couldn't have...About 5 of the OT's coming out this year are about equal...some want winston, some want D'brick...if we aren't gettin Young or Bush then personally I'd rather have A.J hawk, or someone else to help defense...I believe that we can still get quality o-line in the later rounds...

real
01-06-2006, 09:54 PM
exactly stevo...

thunderkyss
01-06-2006, 09:55 PM
Who's earned their keep ? Not DD Not The QB and Not 10 guys on defense...Three players have earned their keep...AJ, D-rob, And Mathis...Not Mr. I couldn't lead if I had Too, and mr. 1000 yards aint what it used to be...Honestly, even if we don't get Bush or Young this year, I think you all should look out for those guys to get replaced in the very near future...
uhhhh...... what?? DD earned his spot as a starter just as much as AJ has. Half our offense comes because of DD's feet, even after missing a few games.

GP
01-06-2006, 09:57 PM
That's "assuming" someone else doesn't snatch the top o line prospects before we get to them.

Teams like Patriots, Steelers, and others who avoid the Detroit Lions and Cleveland Browns draft philosophy (like yours, by the way) that says "Go get the most-hyped QB/WR/RB available! Nobody can stop you if you do!"

The ugly pick (an o lineman, for example) is just never as fun as the sexy pick who will be the franchise's savior, eh? :bomb:

real
01-06-2006, 09:59 PM
uhhhh...... what?? DD earned his spot as a starter just as much as AJ has. Half our offense comes because of DD's feet, even after missing a few games.
He's earned his spot for now just as every other sorry person on the team...simply because there is no one better...DD hasn't earned anything with speculation of Bush coming aboard...If there is speculation that someone else may come in and take your spot or give you a run for it...IMO that spot isn't sewed up....no one would dare think of replacing AJ or D-Rob...Everyone else is expendable and as far as half our offense coming through DD ...Have you ever heard the phrase "in the land of the blind the one eyed running back is king"

outofhnd
01-06-2006, 10:02 PM
I would honestly say who are we to decide or specualte carr is not a leader? who is in the locker room before or after a game? Bein in dallas i cant hear all the news about the texans but Carr does not act like he has lost his teammates... Sure he is not over there in their faces but hes trying to figure out what he did wrong... Hes just in a bad situation here,we have never had a great season here, how is he supposed to act like a winner if hes never been one? I think he does rather well I think Bradford let him down many times.. I think having no TE to throw to because they have to stay in and help block... I think hes doin all he can in an offense that has never really been good.. look at Carolinas early years their offense was not good their defense was good because a lot of old pro bowlers who knew the defense played there. We need a change we have the tools here already to be successful we just need to add some more founation on offense, and more coverage and tackling in the defense...

GP
01-06-2006, 10:03 PM
I....give....up....

:brickwall

real
01-06-2006, 10:06 PM
I would honestly say who are we to decide or specualte carr is not a leader? who is in the locker room before or after a game? Bein in dallas i cant hear all the news about the texans but Carr does not act like he has lost his teammates... Sure he is not over there in their faces but hes trying to figure out what he did wrong... Hes just in a bad situation here,we have never had a great season here, how is he supposed to act like a winner if hes never been one? I think he does rather well I think Bradford let him down many times.. I think having no TE to throw to because they have to stay in and help block... I think hes doin all he can in an offense that has never really been good.. look at Carolinas early years their offense was not good their defense was good because a lot of old pro bowlers who knew the defense played there. We need a change we have the tools here already to be successful we just need to add some more founation on offense, and more coverage and tackling in the defense...
Enough said...........:ok:

New_Texans
01-06-2006, 10:06 PM
I dont understand why so many people are giving up on Carr... they were 7-9 last season and everyone loved Carr now 2-14 and its lose to get Bush... oh wow nvm Bush get Young YOUNG YOUNG!!!!!!

ok... Young is cool if u want to have 3 more losing seasons

but Bush with DD and AJ and a TE from the draft and some O-linemen... now thats a winning team.

Thunder = DD
Supa Fast Blazing Light RB= Reggie Bush

They will both balance out each others work-load.

Our real issue still is can our defense stop anybody?

1st post :yahoo:

GP
01-06-2006, 10:10 PM
NO OUR DEFENSE CANNOT STOP ANYBODY BECAUSE.............

All of you want to keep drafting premiere, no-miss QB/RB/WR each draft season instead of drafting a premiere no-miss o lineman who can allow ANY QB to get the ball into the hands of our premiere, no-miss WR/RB!!!!!!!!!

(i am going friggin insane. anybody else out there who would like to lend a hand would be appreciated right now......)

real
01-06-2006, 10:11 PM
That's "assuming" someone else doesn't snatch the top o line prospects before we get to them.

Teams like Patriots, Steelers, and others who avoid the Detroit Lions and Cleveland Browns draft philosophy (like yours, by the way) that says "Go get the most-hyped QB/WR/RB available! Nobody can stop you if you do!"

The ugly pick (an o lineman, for example) is just never as fun as the sexy pick who will be the franchise's savior, eh? :bomb:
That argument makes no sense what so ever...We aren't loaded with talent like the patriots and the colts... If you are giving that argument then we should have never taken A.J or D.Rob or CARR...We should have just been pickin o-line this whole time

GP
01-06-2006, 10:12 PM
Honestly, "yes" we should have picked an o line at the beginning of this team's existence.

I guess you'd build a house by hanging decorations and choosing furniture before laying a proper foundation first?

real
01-06-2006, 10:14 PM
No but I'd design a house thats already been built by getting what ever I saw fit at the time to make my vision come true...

Tulip
01-06-2006, 10:14 PM
I have never loved Carr. He just never excited me. Not even sexually, lol.

I won't be upset if we keep him- he just isn't someone to write home about. VY and RB are more exciting number 1 propects in 2006 than DC was in 2002 - to me anyway.

And having VY as a QB does not force the Texans to start over. DC came in with a bunch of other newbie offensive players. Those players have had time to mature and improve.

GP
01-06-2006, 10:14 PM
And another thing.....

How many free agent o linemen do you see each year? Not many. They are a rare commodity and teams HOLD ONTO THEM.

Conversely, you see tons of RB and WR talent hitting the free agency wire each year because they are a dime a dozen.

real
01-06-2006, 10:18 PM
How do you know it's not because teams don't generally go after o-line, skill players have more leverage because they are what teams search for in order to get them over the hill...not o-line...like T.O in Philly...You don't hear people making big news over o-line signings because no one cares...

GP
01-06-2006, 10:18 PM
Look, let's agree to disagree.

You want to tear this mother down and start all over...keeping only AJ and Dunta (which I partially agree with, but yet is completely impossible. This isn't Madden 06 where you just select what you want and go with it).

I think we have the nucleus of a good team, and some dead weight needs to be dropped along with some better draft philosophy than what we've had in the past.

No need to drop the bomb on this team and start another four-year rebuilding phase. I'll be done if that's the case.

tulexan
01-06-2006, 10:20 PM
The Patriots are an anomaly. I've never seen a team with so few "stars", yet everyone knows their role and are willing to do whatever it takes to win games even if it means playing a position that they never play.

real
01-06-2006, 10:21 PM
Honestly I just like to argue...i was a big D'brick fan at first, but my opinion changed after watching him and winston play...

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2006, 10:22 PM
The Patriots are an anomaly. I've never seen a team with so few "stars", yet everyone knows their role and are willing to do whatever it takes to win games even if it means playing a position that they never play.

They have plenty of stars, they are just are not paid like stars. Great front office, staff and team chemistry. Top down and down top.

thunderkyss
01-06-2006, 10:22 PM
"If any of this is true, then I definitely want hime gone. Don't like what the coach is doing, when it's your time in the huddle, call the play you want..... kinda like what peyton does. It isn't that hard to do, especially if you have a number of players with the same attitude. You want the coach out of there, you can do like Kobe did, and get you an a new coach.

I honestly don't think our team sucked, because the guys gave up on their coach. That''s not what a leader should do, lay down like that..." -- thunderkyss

--------------------

You'd never make it in the military with this mindset. You'd never make it in a real jobplace environment with this mindset. You don't cut someone's throat to get your own way.

Kobe? You're touting Kobe as a model of excellent leadership? Pardon me for a sec, but that guy is FAILING badly. He's pretty much the joke of the league right now. No way is this a guy who should be held up on a pedestal for even his on-court theatrics, let alone his personal life. Yeah, he's a champion. LOL.

Peyton is a company man. Carr is a company man. Two different companies, ran by two different people. One boss allows the QB to improvise. Another coach didn't allow ONE BIT of improvisation until Dan Reeves stepped onto the scene. Think that was a mere coincidence? Not.

Heck, call me what you want or act like I'm a fool all you want...but I respect the heck out of Carr and all the other players for that matter for NOT throwing capers under the bus like they do in Oakland and Detroit.

Yeah, I'll stand on that: Carr is a respectable leader. And I doubt he loses sleep over what Thunderkyss says about him.


Funny, I did fine in the military, and I'm doing fine now in corporate America. Anyway, I know David Carr isn't worried about what I say. Once again, I Like Carr, but he isn't what we need at QB. It's his but getting pounded. If that's not enough for a guy to want to grab the reigns............

Now about Kobe....... Things aren't looking to good for him. He's still a champion though. Leaders........... they come in all shapes and sizes. Kobe was able to turn the right people against a man who has one more NBA Championship rings than.... well, you know. And let's not forget what he did to the best player in the NBA.

Am I a Kobe fan?? No...... Do I make a habit of defending Kobe?? No.... Do I think he Lead a lot of people into some stupid decisions Yes.

I really didn't think too much about getting the #1 pick. I figured we'd see what Casserly was made of for sure. IF he picked up Reggie Bush, then he doesn't deserve his position, unless of course he aquired Bush to parlay him into a lot of other picks and players. If he passed on Bush alltoghether, then he just doesn't deserve to breath. I don't think Cassely has got the balls to get Bush and trade him right away, or to trade down... Because it's going to look like the wrong move, until your picks start to pay off, and they may never. But you've got to be strong enough to take the chance.

I don't think Bush can help us in 2006. I don't. Getting a first round Offensive line man isn't going to help us in 2006. Two first round offensive linemen........ maybe, but not gaurunteed. I think a Vince Young will, fill your stadium, and you'll have 11 people walking on that field everyweek, thinking they might win.

GP
01-06-2006, 10:23 PM
"...like T.O in Philly...You don't hear people making big news over o-line signings because no one cares..."

------

Ummm...you pretty much made my point.

T.O. in Philly did not (say it with me) DID NOT get them over the hump. I don't see the Lombardi Trophy sitting in Philly, do you?

I see it sitting up in the very northeast of the USA where a team has drafted a 16th round QB in Tom Brady (not Akili Smith (hype) and not Ryan Leaf (hype)) and who has been very very smart to pick what it needs and not what the hype machine says it needs.

And the part about "nobody caring" about o line signings, go talk to Steelers fans. Go talk to Pats fans. They get very excited when you talk o line with them. They know that there's more to football than the speed guys who get the highlight reels each Sunday night.

By your philosophy...we'll be fielding 11 WRs even at the o line spot.

GP
01-06-2006, 10:28 PM
And the stadium will be empty again when after a few games VY is on injured reserve because this ain't college level playing field anymore. When he is yelling at our patch-work line and they look at him like he's crazy ("Yelling at me? Oh, OK. Let's see you take it all on your shoulders big fella...." and then he lets a LB get through and hammer VY. Face it, this is for money...not for scholarships).

There is NO disputing the pure "fact" that every NFL QB coming right into the NFL out of college, no matter how good, will tell you and tell the world that the first is brutal because the game is so FAST. It's a whole new level.

And if you think VY is so far superior that he is above the other 100 NFL QBs who have come and gone and who all say that it ain't the same as college, then you need to sell ocean-front property in Arizona.

I like your enthusiasm for VY. And he will have his chance(s). But I just cannot let go of reality and dream about VY this way. One foot in optimism and one foot squarely on the ground in reality.

New_Texans
01-06-2006, 10:29 PM
Carr not being a leader is because hes not a jerk and wont walk up to his player and cuss them out. Hes going to be a really nice guy to them and say Lets keep going guys...play hard.

outofhnd
01-06-2006, 10:29 PM
Well we thought we had Boselli at that point..

For the people who are arguing my dynamic remarks none of them were tabbed as dynamic players at the college level and the ones that were have been marginal performers...

In College Ladanian was not considered Dynamic... He was tabbed NFL Superstar and great player.. TO wasnt tabbed DYNAMIC in college. He was tabbed as great athlete who could be a good WR, Randy Moss was not DYNAMIC he was a reciever with speed and remarkable hands...

They became DYNAMIC after they redefined their positions with their abilities... LT is great but Dave meggett was just as good a passer and could throw it Long...

since I live in Dallas I would remember if LT was deemed Dynamic in TCU... I would just hate to see us draft a plyer #1 overall we dont really need, just to watch him bust like 1 long run and end up with another 5 wins or less season because we didnt bring talent in where we needed it..

real
01-06-2006, 10:31 PM
:penalty: T.O did get them over the hump....T.O had attitude issues..It was never a question about his ability and what he brought to the team...I didn't read the rest of your post...just that part...I'm out...Rack him...lol:pigfly:

thunderkyss
01-06-2006, 10:33 PM
He's earned his spot for now just as every other sorry person on the team...simply because there is no one better...DD hasn't earned anything with speculation of Bush coming aboard...If there is speculation that someone else may come in and take your spot or give you a run for it...IMO that spot isn't sewed up....no one would dare think of replacing AJ or D-Rob...Everyone else is expendable and as far as half our offense coming through DD ...Have you ever heard the phrase "in the land of the blind the one eyed running back is king"


The only advantage AJ has over Dom, is that there are two WR spots available. If Andre were to get hurt, it is unlikely that there will be two recievers who can play better than he can. So when he gets healthy, he'll have a starting spot. If DD gets hurt, it would be possible for Reggie to win the spot. If we were a one WR team, then it'd be the same for Andre. Bush would not begin the season as our starter....... it don't matter what happens in Training camp.

thunderkyss
01-06-2006, 10:34 PM
I have never loved Carr. He just never excited me. Not even sexually, lol.

I won't be upset if we keep him- he just isn't someone to write home about. VY and RB are more exciting number 1 propects in 2006 than DC was in 2002 - to me anyway.

And having VY as a QB does not force the Texans to start over. DC came in with a bunch of other newbie offensive players. Those players have had time to mature and improve.


But they haven't, and that's part of the problem. But that's OK, I believe Vince would be a star behind even them.

real
01-06-2006, 10:34 PM
I don't care about VY... I am just pointing out ridiculous arguments...So the O-lineman coming out will be up to speed??? is that what you are saying? they are garunteed not to bust??? Look you had a better argument when you said we don't need him...stick to that because all the other arguments trying to take away froom his talent and acting like he is the only college player coming out that is going to have to ADJUST IS ASANINE....

GP
01-06-2006, 10:35 PM
DeAngelo Hall shut down TO way before the attitude got the best of TO. He's not the whole team. NO stud skill player is.

David Boston was a guy who was supposed to get San Diego over the hump. He didn't. He went to Dolphins. Didn't do it there, either.

Ron Dayne in NY? Nope.

Ryan Leaf in S.D.? Nope.

Akili Smith in Cincy? Nope.

The list goes on. Sure-things are never as sure as the hype machine makes them out to be.

I actually commend Casserly on not going with the hyped up Charles Rogers. He got dogged for taking this mild-mannered introvert named Andre Johnson when he "should have" drafted the brash and flashy Charles Rogers, a guy with so much star quality you have to wear sunglasses when he plays.

LOL.

real
01-06-2006, 10:36 PM
The only advantage AJ has over Dom, is that there are two WR spots available. If Andre were to get hurt, it is unlikely that there will be two recievers who can play better than he can. So when he gets healthy, he'll have a starting spot. If DD gets hurt, it would be possible for Reggie to win the spot. If we were a one WR team, then it'd be the same for Andre. Bush would not begin the season as our starter....... it don't matter what happens in Training camp.
o.k whats your point...and ther are 2 tackles, two gaurds and a partridge and a pear tree.... DD is expendable...people don't panic when he's out...we'd panic in clutch time if d-rob weren't there or AJ werent there...for you to put him on their levels is ridicolous

thunderkyss
01-06-2006, 10:36 PM
No my philosophy is pick the player who people say "Has great fundamentals" or Consistent performer who will have a long career in the NFL,

Brett Favre..


Brett Favre?? Great fundamentals?? You do know he was drafted at Quarterback right??

real
01-06-2006, 10:37 PM
DeAngelo Hall shut down TO way before the attitude got the best of TO. He's not the whole team. NO stud skill player is.

David Boston was a guy who was supposed to get San Diego over the hump. He didn't. He went to Dolphins. Didn't do it there, either.

Ron Dayne in NY? Nope.

Ryan Leaf in S.D.? Nope.

Akili Smith in Cincy? Nope.

The list goes on. Sure-things are never as sure as the hype machine makes them out to be.

I actually commend Casserly on not going with the hyped up Charles Rogers. He got dogged for taking this mild-mannered introvert named Andre Johnson when he "should have" drafted the brash and flashy Charles Rogers, a guy with so much star quality you have to wear sunglasses when he plays.

LOL.
When has an offensive lineman rookie gotten someone over the hump???

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2006, 10:38 PM
This thread is dead to me.

Tulip
01-06-2006, 10:40 PM
I actually commend Casserly on not going with the hyped up Charles Rogers. He got dogged for taking this mild-mannered introvert named Andre Johnson when he "should have" drafted the brash and flashy Charles Rogers, a guy with so much star quality you have to wear sunglasses when he plays.

LOL.

I'm not sure the Lions would have allowed Casserly to pick Charles Rogers. They might have called "foul" if Tagliabue had announced, "and with the third pick in the draft, the Houston Texans select Charles Rogers, wide receiver from Michigan State."

"Um...excuse me Mr. Commissioner, we already picked him 15 minutes ago."

outofhnd
01-06-2006, 10:41 PM
Man I cant even post in here without having to go back and read replies for 10 minutes...

My opinion plain and simple is I hope we deal out of the #1 Overall We need depth and blocking on offense, we need pass rush and penetration on defense.. Add some quality players that can do those fundamental things and improve the team..

tulexan
01-06-2006, 10:41 PM
Wasn't Rogers drafted ahead of AJ?

Tulip
01-06-2006, 10:42 PM
When has an offensive lineman rookie gotten someone over the hump???

Good question. A LT selection for the Texans would be playing RT his rookie season, and a non-LT would probably be riding the bench.

stevo3883
01-06-2006, 10:43 PM
Wasn't Rogers drafted ahead of AJ?


yeah... These people stopped making sense 2 pages ago.

GP
01-06-2006, 10:43 PM
Yes, he was...but the hype was so intense...you'd think Casserly would have traded up to grab Rogers.

JUST LIKE HE WAS SUPPOSED TO TRADE UP TO GET SEAN TAYLOR.

Remember that whole debate on this board before the draft?

Now THAT was a wildfire..........

GP
01-06-2006, 10:45 PM
And the fact that you're trying to "pick apart" and parse things out of my comments instead of rebutting them with sound opinions of your own is further evidence that you're just playing the hype game.

Hype it up, everybody!

Bush is a sure thing!

Young is a sure thing!

Well, we can only get one of them. Guess we'll flip a coin and be done with it....

Tulip
01-06-2006, 10:47 PM
No one is a sure thing. Not even if he plays left tackle.

tulexan
01-06-2006, 10:48 PM
I think Carr led the team as much as he was allowed to.

real
01-06-2006, 10:48 PM
exactly

outofhnd
01-06-2006, 10:48 PM
Well with us having the top pick... Like I think GPS said earlier no matter what we do it will be the wrong thing to do... Just like it was the wrong thing to do for Philly to take McNabb over Ricky Williams.. Yea that really put that franchise in the toilet... And the Saints looked like the big Winners getting Ricky Williams who isnt on their team anymore and they havent been to the playoffs is how many years? You just never know you just have to hope and pray that whatever houston did they got what they wanted out of the draft...

stevo3883
01-06-2006, 10:49 PM
Well with us having the top pick... Like I think GPS said earlier no matter what we do it will be the wrong thing to do... Just like it was the wrong thing to do for Philly to take McNabb over Ricky Williams.. Yea that really put that franchise in the toilet... And the Saints looked like the big Winners getting Ricky Williams who isnt on their team anymore and they havent been to the playoffs is how many years? You just never know you just have to hope and pray that whatever houston did they got what they wanted out of the draft...

I believe it was 3 years ago when the saints were in the playoffs, and last year they were 1 win away.


when was the last time a houston football team was in the playoffs?

outofhnd
01-06-2006, 10:54 PM
vs how many years did philly go to the playoffs after mcnabb? like 4 straight?

And was Ricky Williams on that team 3 years ago? Nope..

My point is Ricky was supposed to be the salvation for the saints and it never happened.. Donovan who people couldnt believe was picked over ricky has been a rock in philly leading them to the playoffs and even to a superbowl appearance.. and has the longest contract in NFL history when he signed a 8 year deal... or was it 12 i cant recall now..

thunderkyss
01-06-2006, 10:55 PM
And the stadium will be empty again when after a few games VY is on injured reserve because this ain't college level playing field anymore. When he is yelling at our patch-work line and they look at him like he's crazy ("Yelling at me? Oh, OK. Let's see you take it all on your shoulders big fella...." and then he lets a LB get through and hammer VY. Face it, this is for money...not for scholarships).

There is NO disputing the pure "fact" that every NFL QB coming right into the NFL out of college, no matter how good, will tell you and tell the world that the first is brutal because the game is so FAST. It's a whole new level.

And if you think VY is so far superior that he is above the other 100 NFL QBs who have come and gone and who all say that it ain't the same as college, then you need to sell ocean-front property in Arizona.

I like your enthusiasm for VY. And he will have his chance(s). But I just cannot let go of reality and dream about VY this way. One foot in optimism and one foot squarely on the ground in reality.


I see your point. And before Wendsday night, I'd be with you. I totally agree the most important position in Football, is the line. On both sides of the ball. But that was because before Wednesday night, I though Vince would come back for his senior year. Now, after his little "speech" there is no doubt he'll come out, just to deprive Reggie of being the No. 1 pick. I can't pass on Young. You're totally wrong for comparing Vince to Vick. This guy throws better than Vick, and Runs better than both Culpepper and McNabb. So we haven't seen anything like that yet.

But with 4 or five linemen per team... your chances of getting a good probowl lineman later in the draft, is much greater than your chance of getting a wide reciever, a running back, a corner, or a tightend.

Either way you look at it, it'll be three years, before we can think about a superbowl. But we can have a winning season next year with Vince.

real
01-06-2006, 10:56 PM
vs how many years did philly go to the playoffs after mcnabb? like 4 straight?

And was Ricky Williams on that team 3 years ago? Nope..

My point is Ricky was supposed to be the salvation for the saints and it never happened.. Donovan who people couldnt believe was picked over ricky has been a rock in philly leading them to the playoffs and even to a superbowl appearance.. and has the longest contract in NFL history when he signed a 8 year deal... or was it 12 i cant recall now..
ok...??? and Tom brady came off the bench and led his team to a superbowl win...******* happens

outofhnd
01-06-2006, 11:07 PM
It happens because they knew what they were doing...

That is why certain teams seem to make the playoffs every year and other teams have like 1 good year then disappear again for 5 years..

Look at the Lions, Look at the Cardinals... those are some franchises I hope we dont follow suit with.. But remember the Browns are the only team that entered the league in the same fashion that we did... So just look where the Browns are now and thats probably where we will be..Scary thought, but its the truth... We have a new Offense and Defense coming.. Players are gonna have to learn it...

Everyone knows No 1 pick is gonna revive any team.. especially now in the modern NFL where Free agents are mercenaries signed for outrageous amounts of money then dont come through.. All I am saying is where I would like our focus to be this offseason and hopefully watching a much improved product on the field for 2006...

All we can do is Speculate, Commend and Complain about our choices...

real
01-06-2006, 11:09 PM
what is your point ...exactly ???

Runner
01-06-2006, 11:16 PM
Speculation? Yes. Intuition? Yes. DC has not shown anything tangibly or intangibly that could possibly deem as a leader.

While I don't think his on-field leadership is very good, I think we can admit that his getting up and competing after getting hit time and time again is intabgible evidence of leadership. He could easily take a few plays off to recover, and no one would blame him.

real
01-06-2006, 11:18 PM
he doesn't wanna lose his job...

tulexan
01-06-2006, 11:20 PM
when he was allowed to lead the team he did well.

Napa Auto Parts
01-07-2006, 12:51 AM
Wow this is some funny stuff Carr a Leader Carr A playmaker it a little early for your april fool jokes. are you still watching his fresno state games Carr has not showed any leadership since fresno state! playmaker may be if you consider running out of bounds behind the line of scrimage or not throwing a hail mary and taking another sack for the sake of QB rating.

El Tejano
01-07-2006, 01:25 AM
Mcnair and Mcnabb. Both running QBs in their day, both went to Super Bowls.

New_Texans
01-07-2006, 02:38 AM
Wow this is some funny stuff Carr a Leader Carr A playmaker it a little early for your april fool jokes. are you still watching his fresno state games Carr has not showed any leadership since fresno state! playmaker may be if you consider running out of bounds behind the line of scrimage or not throwing a hail mary and taking another sack for the sake of QB rating.


When hes sacked he gets back up. Hes sacked again he gets back up...over and over again he gets back up. Then he doesnt go on camera and complain about it. Hes not a whinning baby, hes a young man trying his best to get this old Ford Model T car turned into a Escalade with 20' rims and diamond incrested seats. Now with Capers gone let see what happens, you have to give Carr one more year under Kubiak and then Judge him cause right now there is no real assessment of his skills as a play maker.

Heres a question for you whats worse, sacks or interceptions?

Well, Carr has had only 1 year in which hes thrown more ints than tds i believe which was his rookie year. The sacks are something that is mainly contributed to the coaches and the lack of coaching the line and the running backs for blocking. I only recall 1 time he did that early this season (running out of bounds behind the line) then he never did it again. Oh, and with the line playing better these last games we did manage to score more points (without our RB). So stop blaming Carr for the all of the problems... heck the WR drop td passes... Capers plays not to lose a game... and u guys complain about the Texans winning to get Reggie and now its bye bye Carr...?

Fans are stupid... Im sorry but Fans are stupid... flip flopping all over the place.

The Dream
01-07-2006, 11:37 AM
My take on this whole thing is that I think we should draft VY....you ask why?

1. David Carr - I haven't been one to bash David Carr, because I've been following the dude since he played for Fresno State.......granted he hasn't the best Line blocking for him, but dude has not shown that he deserves to be a franchise QB...........bottom line is thatDavid Carr is average, at this point I really don't see him getting any better than he already is, Vince on the other hand is already better than Carr in many departments and has a lot more potential than David.

2. Domanike Davis - unlike David, Dominique is better than average.....we have a good RB, so why get rid of him for Bush?.....granted Bush is a great player, but would you rather have a backfield of Carr and Bush or Vince and Davis?

3. Do not trade down - yes we need an O-line, but we also need a lot of other things also (on both sides of the ball).....when you have an opportunity to pick up a special player, you don't pass on that opportunity........players like Bush, VY, Leinhart, etc. are a dime dozen, there will be plenty of linemen in the future.

4. Injuries - the people who have been saying that Vince won't be able to stay healthy are full of crap....we don't know what his health status will be throughout his career......as far as McNabb goes, this past season is the only one I can remember of him having a major injury (which sidelined him for the year), ......there have been plenty of QB's that could run and scramble who have had good careers, Steve Young, McNabb, Cunningham,etc........injuries happen to every QB, hell Troy Aikman was never a running QB but he got lit up.....none of us have a crystal ball so we can't say he will be on the side line most of his career.....plus add to the fact that unlike Vick, Young is not a wreckless runner.

5. QB's are more valuable than RB's - sorry, but it's true.....Barry Sanders was one of the greatest players ever at any position, but he never went anywhere throughout his career......QB's touch the ball every possesion and can make a difference (rather that be positive or negative) every possesion.....like a poster said earlier, people were angry when McNabb was drafted over Williams, but unlike Williams, McNabb touches the ball every possesion.........give me a special QB over a special RB anyday of the week.


Oh by the way I'm a newcomer, so hello to everybody.

BREAZE
01-07-2006, 12:00 PM
When hes sacked he gets back up. Hes sacked again he gets back up...over and over again he gets back up. Then he doesnt go on camera and complain about it. Hes not a whinning baby, hes a young man trying his best to get this old Ford Model T car turned into a Escalade with 20' rims and diamond incrested seats. Now with Capers gone let see what happens, you have to give Carr one more year under Kubiak and then Judge him cause right now there is no real assessment of his skills as a play maker.

Heres a question for you whats worse, sacks or interceptions?

Well, Carr has had only 1 year in which hes thrown more ints than tds i believe which was his rookie year. The sacks are something that is mainly contributed to the coaches and the lack of coaching the line and the running backs for blocking. I only recall 1 time he did that early this season (running out of bounds behind the line) then he never did it again. Oh, and with the line playing better these last games we did manage to score more points (without our RB). So stop blaming Carr for the all of the problems... heck the WR drop td passes... Capers plays not to lose a game... and u guys complain about the Texans winning to get Reggie and now its bye bye Carr...?

Fans are stupid... Im sorry but Fans are stupid... flip flopping all over the place.

4 years of zero leadership and all of a sudden the definition of a leader changes. A leader has a killer instinct, puts his team on his back, and has the respect of the team. He credits everyone with a win and takes sole resposibility for a lose.

Carr is not a leader and you don't all of a sudden become one becuase the coaches change...you either are one or are not. The debate is VY vs Bush vs O-lince rebuilding, but the team needs a leader more than anything else...no leader=no ring. If not VY, then draft someone who is a proven LEADER...

PapaL
01-07-2006, 12:03 PM
Sunday NFL Countdown, Chris Mortenson reports that Houston will take Reggie #1 regardless of what VY decides (also said VY is leaning towards turning pro). Pending formality of Reggie turning pro, also said Carr $8M option will be picked up.

Predicts Leinhert #2 to Saints, VY #3 to TEN.

BREAZE
01-07-2006, 12:28 PM
VY winning rings for Tenn...perfect...

BradK10
01-07-2006, 12:48 PM
VY winning rings for Tenn...perfect...

the "oh lets just give up if we don't draft VY" attitude is sick....what a bunch of babies

New_Texans
01-07-2006, 12:49 PM
4 years of zero leadership and all of a sudden the definition of a leader changes. A leader has a killer instinct, puts his team on his back, and has the respect of the team. He credits everyone with a win and takes sole resposibility for a lose.

Carr is not a leader and you don't all of a sudden become one becuase the coaches change...you either are one or are not. The debate is VY vs Bush vs O-lince rebuilding, but the team needs a leader more than anything else...no leader=no ring. If not VY, then draft someone who is a proven LEADER...

Jacksonville Game last year... he lead them down field and guess what we won and kicked them out the playoffs.

Unfortunately with the crappy defense we've had this year he hasnt had much of a chance to lead the offense down field because the defense gives up 80 million touchdowns in the 4th.

Do you really think Vince Young is gonna be a leader in the NFL as a rookie whos going to sit on the bech?

David Carr was a leader too in college... so saying that VY is a better leader in college is nothing.

The Dream
01-07-2006, 12:52 PM
VY #3 to TEN

God I hope this isn't true.....I want Vince, but if we were to pass him up, I wouldn't want dude in our same division, so he can kick our ***** every year for passing him up.

BradK10
01-07-2006, 12:54 PM
can we ban all users who say a college QB who we might pass up on is gonna kick our tails every year because we didnt draft him?

and Houston fans wonder why other fans in the USA make fun of us for being fickle/bandwagoners

New_Texans
01-07-2006, 12:54 PM
God I hope this isn't true.....I want Vince, but if we were to pass him up, I wouldn't want dude in our same division, so he can kick our ***** every year for passing him up.

How the **** did Ten. end up with #3 anyway i thought it would be San Fran...

tulexan
01-07-2006, 12:54 PM
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?p=241583#post241583

How does Carr's leadership cause us to lose those games?

New_Texans
01-07-2006, 12:56 PM
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?p=241583#post241583

How does Carr's leadership cause us to lose those games?

It doesnt we lack leadership on the DEFENSIVE SIDE!!!!!!!

DEFENSE PEOPLE!!! cant you SEE THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ITS NOT CARR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Dream
01-07-2006, 01:02 PM
can we ban all users who say a college QB who we might pass up on is gonna kick our tails every year because we didnt draft him?

and Houston fans wonder why other fans in the USA make fun of us for being fickle/bandwagoners

first off I'm not a bandwagon fan, so get that straight.....secondly if we were to pass up in Young, I wouldn't want him in our division, because if he were to turn out to be great, we would see him twice a year for the rest of his career.

BradK10
01-07-2006, 01:04 PM
how bout lets not focus on what might happen with other teams, get scared of a guy who's never played an NFL snap yet, and focus on what realistically can be done to help our team?

i didnt call you a bandwagon fan, but if you'd get out of the houston bubble you'd find out that we're not considered a great sports town because of our fans

Tulip
01-07-2006, 01:05 PM
How the **** did Ten. end up with #3 anyway i thought it would be San Fran...

SF had the best strength of schedule. When our record was tied with theirs, we had a weaker strength than they did, but better than the teams just ahead of us. Which is why it would have hurt us so much to beat the 49ers.

New_Texans
01-07-2006, 01:07 PM
Love Vince Draft Bush 06'

The Dream
01-07-2006, 01:18 PM
bout lets not focus on what might happen with other teams, get scared of a guy who's never played an NFL snap yet, and focus on what realistically can be done to help our team?

i didnt call you a bandwagon fan, but if you'd get out of the houston bubble you'd find out that we're not considered a great sports town because of our fans


What can help our team is with we dump Mr. Average pretty boy David Carr, and keep the already proven player in Domanick Davis and draft an amazing talent in VY.


I'm not here to argue, but I don't see how people thinking houston fans are bandwagonners is important to this conversation.

tulexan
01-07-2006, 01:20 PM
David Carr was an amazing talent too in college.

The Dream
01-07-2006, 01:22 PM
VY >>> Carr as a college QB.....I think everyone would agree with me on this.


edit: and I had a chance of seeing David play in college against Rice.

New_Texans
01-07-2006, 01:25 PM
What can help our team is with we dump Mr. Average pretty boy David Carr, and keep the already proven player in Domanick Davis and draft an amazing talent in VY.


I'm not here to argue, but I don't see how people thinking houston fans are bandwagons is important to this conversation.

Johnson Lt lg c rg rt te WR#2
Carr

Davis Bush

ok, let me explain this set up as u can see, we have both running backs in the back field. Now, Carr drops back and can either hand it off to Domanick for his normal 8 yard gain or do play action to DD. If he does play action Bush will run out in the flat ready to catch the ball (cause hes a pretty nice catching RB) yet if the Lb has bitten on Bush the Te can break open into the open field and there... 10-15 yard play right there. Now of course he can also toss it to Johnson can let him make some plays too.

But Count the names i have out there... Johnson Carr Davis Bush... thats not bad seeing that Vince Young if drafted wont be able to get the ball to Johnson since hell be ON THE BENCH.

Tulip
01-07-2006, 01:26 PM
VY >>> Carr as a college QB.....I think everyone would agree with me on this.

Yes. Young, Bush, and Leinart are all better prospects, IMO, than David Carr was in 2002.

New_Texans
01-07-2006, 01:28 PM
VY >>> Carr as a college QB.....I think everyone would agree with me on this.


edit: and I had a chance of seeing David play in college against Rice.


Vince Young had greater Talent around him though...he goes to Texas ...Carr was at Fresno St you see the difference dont you?

Tulip
01-07-2006, 01:30 PM
More comments to throw in the mix:

Young is a better actor than Carr.

1. the fake handoff

2. the pump fake

Vinny
01-07-2006, 01:30 PM
Vince Young had greater Talent around him though...he goes to Texas University ...Carr was at Fresno St you see the difference dont you?Young carries his team. Dave needs help. Thats what I see.

New_Texans
01-07-2006, 01:38 PM
Young carries his team. Dave needs help. Thats what I see.


Young wont be able to walk in a 4th and 5 in the Nfl let along get down the field. USC's defense wasnt that great to begin with. David carried Fresno in college like young did UT.

I go back to Jacksonville last year what did David do in that game?

lead them downfield and win the game kicking a hungry Jacksonville team out of the playoffs.

Vince wont be dancing in the NFL like he can in college and he wont be running as much because of the way that he runs (very upright he'll get hit hard.)

Not to mention all of the fumbles he has had while running in the open field or when he gets pressure on him. I watch UT games this year, he tends to fumble the ball a lot (the whole UT team really.).


Dave needs help?

See Brett Farve and all great QBs they seem to all have nice O-lines and some nice RBs and not to mention a few nice WRs who make plays? Am I not right? Qbs always need help.

Vinny
01-07-2006, 01:40 PM
Young wont be able to walk in a 4th and 5 in the Nfl let along get down the field. USC's defense wasnt that great to begin with. David carried Fresno in college like young did UT.

I go back to Jacksonville last year what did David do in that game?

lead them downfield and win the game kicking a hungry Jacksonville team out of the playoffs.

Vince wont be dancing in the NFL like he can in college and he wont be running as much because of the way that he runs (very upright he'll get hit hard.)

Not to mention all of the fumbles he has had while running in the open field or when he gets pressure on him. I watch UT games this year, he tends to fumble the ball a lot (the whole UT team really.).You are new...I won't tell you what I think of this post....but welcome anyway, just remember once you post something you define yourself. We have all seen Carr in 60 NFL Starts. Some of us are fed up.

The Dream
01-07-2006, 01:43 PM
Vince Young had greater Talent around him though...he goes to Texas ...Carr was at Fresno St you see the difference dont you?


Yes Carr went to Fresno, but he still wasn't better than Vince @ Texas.......I don't know if Texas is national champs with any other QB in the nation.


But Count the names i have out there... Johnson Carr Davis Bush... thats not bad seeing that Vince Young if drafted wont be able to get the ball to Johnson since hell be ON THE BENCH.

None of us know how long the Texans will keep him on the bench....who's to say he won't get any playing time next year?

New_Texans
01-07-2006, 01:49 PM
You are new...I won't tell you what I think of this post....but welcome anyway, just remember once you post something you define yourself. We have all seen Carr in 60 NFL Starts. Some of us are fed up.

Oh i added this btw dont tell me that this isnt true.

Dave needs help?

See Brett Farve and all great QBs they seem to all have nice O-lines and some nice RBs and not to mention a few nice WRs who make plays? Am I not right? Qbs always need help.

Your Qb just doesnt need to make dumb mistakes...And as of those 60 starts he doesnt really ever make stupid decisions does he?

Vinny
01-07-2006, 01:52 PM
Your Qb just doesnt need to make dumb mistakes...And as of those 60 starts he doesnt really ever make stupid decisions does he?What team are you a fan of? You call Carr "your QB". I've seen Carr make poor decisions for nearly half a decade now. He is a super guy...but I'd rather have Super Dave chunking passes for the Raiders or someone else.

The Dream
01-07-2006, 01:56 PM
What team are you a fan of? You call Carr "your QB". I've seen Carr make poor decisions for nearly half a decade now. He is a super guy...but I'd rather have Super Dave chunking passes for the Raiders or someone else.

I agree, I have nothing against Dave, because he seems like a class act, but he is just another average QB.

HardKnockTexan
01-07-2006, 01:56 PM
Well it looks like the Texans picked a good year to get the #1 pick in the draft. Before the Rose Bowl I wasnt sure of what I wanted to happen in the draft. As has been said over and over again on this board our team has a lot of areas to address but passing on a player with the potential that Bush has could definentally come back to bite our team in the butt. Now after watching Young's amazing performance in the Rose Bowl it even clouds the issue more.

I have never seen anyone perform like Young did in the national championship game. Watching him made me salivate at the thought of having him running our team. After letting a few days pass and many thoughts about the draft run through my head, I came to this conclusion:
A. There has only been 1 mobile QB that has won a superbowl - Steve Young.
B. I still have faith in Carr to run this offense efficiently.
C. I think Pitts could be one of the top Left Tackles in the league with proper coaching.
D. Dominick Davis needs help in the backfield.
E. There are servicable players at every possition each year in the draft.
F. Special players only come along once every 5 to 10 years.

I'm leaning towards drafting Bush. He'd only be getting around 15 carries a game but just having him in the backfield/slot would open up our offense dramatically. Trading down and aquiring multiple picks isnt a bad idea either. Before they moved Pitts to left tackle mid season I was all about trading down and picking the best Left Tackle in the draft. But after watching Pitts improve every game and shut down some of the best Defensive Ends in the game my mind set has changed. If we do trade down, now I'd say we go AJ Hawk with the first pick. If we stay at #1 there's no way we could pass on Bush.

Tulip
01-07-2006, 01:58 PM
There have been umpteenth arguments in this household over the past season. One was about benching David Carr when he was having trouble (remember that game when he threw at the receivers' feet multiple times?). My other half worried that benching Carr would destroy Carr's psyche and do irreparable damage to him.

And now the same argument is getting dusted off about the possiblity of Carr playing with Vince Young in the shadows. He thinks David Carr's will never mentally survive the "Play Vince" chants that will come after every interception or bad play.

Which leads me to wonder - if that's true - why on earth would the Texans center their franchise around someone that fragile?

tulexan
01-07-2006, 01:59 PM
I agree, I have nothing against Dave, because he seems like a class act, but he is just another average QB.


If average QB's throw for 3500 yards and rush for 300 yards on a team with one playmaker and no offensive line, then I must be missing something.

New_Texans
01-07-2006, 02:01 PM
What team are you a fan of? You call Carr "your QB". I've seen Carr make poor decisions for nearly half a decade now. He is a super guy...but I'd rather have Super Dave chunking passes for the Raiders or someone else.

Watch Carr go to Miami or the Raiders and watch him go to the playoffs and make a few Pro Bowls...and Watch the Texans go through another coaching change and YOU guys will be calling for Vince's head. Four more years of losing football cause you want to dismantle a team which isnt that far from being back to 7+ wins.

I dont want Vince here cause you guys are horrible texan "fans". I'd rather him go to the Titans cause he** they know how to treat their team. No wonder the Oilers moved out there. 1st game Vince hass he doesnt complete a pass watch u guys boo the heck out him. He tosses a Int watch u guys want him benched... he fumbles a ball watch you guys want a new QB. "F Vince lets go get Brady Quinn he won the Heisman (if he does) hes much better than Vince is"

Vinny
01-07-2006, 02:02 PM
If average QB's throw for 3500 yards and rush for 300 yards on a team with one playmaker and no offensive line, then I must be missing something.Some of us carry an opinion of Carr based on watching him play...not on some stat line that can be deceptive.

Vinny
01-07-2006, 02:04 PM
Watch Carr go to Miami or the Raiders and watch him go to the playoffs and make a few Pro Bowls...and Watch the Texans go through another coaching change and YOU guys will be calling for Vince's head. Four more years of losing football cause you want to dismantle a team which isnt that far from being back to 7+ wins.I'd be happy for him...but replacing a QB isn't "dismantling" a team. Kudos to the Raiders or Dolphins for getting some average play out of their 8 mil cap hit.

I dont want Vince here cause you guys are horrible texan "fans". I'd rather him go to the Titans cause he** they know how to treat their team. No wonder the Oilers moved out there. Hmmm, sounds like a Titan fan to me.

tulexan
01-07-2006, 02:04 PM
Some of us carry an opinion of Carr based on watching him play...not on some stat line that can be deceptive.

Well I guess some of us can also make a decision based on something besides where a player went to college or grew up.

New_Texans
01-07-2006, 02:04 PM
If average QB's throw for 3500 yards and rush for 300 yards on a team with one playmaker and no offensive line, then I must be missing something.

Thank you.

Vinny
01-07-2006, 02:06 PM
Well I guess some of us can also make a decision based on something besides where a player went to college or grew up.I'm not a UT fan...I just happen to reside in their state. really....I've never been a big NCAA fanboy type. Nice generalization though.

New_Texans
01-07-2006, 02:06 PM
I'd be happy for him...but replacing a QB isn't "dismantling" a team. Kudos to the Raiders or Dolphins for getting some average play out of their 8 mil cap hit.

Hmmm, sounds like a Titan fan to me.


:crying: :crying: :crying: :crying: Titans fan lmao!

The Dream
01-07-2006, 02:07 PM
I dont want Vince here cause you guys are horrible texan "fans".

Why are we horrible for wanting Vince in a Texans Uni???.....the reason why we want him here is, because we think he'd help us out.

New_Texans
01-07-2006, 02:09 PM
Why are we horrible for wanting Vince in a Texans Uni???.....the reason why we want him here is, because we think he'd help us out.

1st mistake he makes you'll be going to want to get a new QB.


Brady Quinn 07' >> watch.

Tulip
01-07-2006, 02:10 PM
Vinny - I'm a fan of the sig. Is that new?

The Dream
01-07-2006, 02:11 PM
look none of us knows if Vince or Reggie will be good players on the next level, if anyone stinks of course we as fans would want to make changes, because we want our team to be good....but no I wouldn't call for a players head just because he makes a mistake, that would be insane, you have to give people time (at any position).

BradK10
01-07-2006, 02:12 PM
the comment about "horrible fans" are about all you goobs saying you won't pull for the Texans anymore if they don't draft Vince

THAT is being a horrible fan

The Dream
01-07-2006, 02:12 PM
Well I never said that, so it doesn't apply to me.

tulexan
01-07-2006, 02:13 PM
I'm not a UT fan...I just happen to reside in their state. really....I've never been a big NCAA fanboy type. Nice generalization though.


Well then why don't you want Omar Jacobs? He is the same size as Vince Young, and his talents relate to the NFL more. He has a cannon for an arm, and although may not be as mobile as Vince Young, he is not a statue. He may not get as much press as Vince Young, but that is because he plays for the MAC.

Vinny
01-07-2006, 02:14 PM
Vinny - I'm a fan of the sig. Is that new?tnks, I've had it for years. It's a translated Confucius quote....although he gets credit for a ton of things he never said I think....but I like the message.

Vinny
01-07-2006, 02:16 PM
Well then why don't you want Omar Jacobs? He is the same size as Vince Young, and his talents relate to the NFL more. He has a cannon for an arm, and although may not be as mobile as Vince Young, he is not a statue. He may not get as much press as Vince Young, but that is because he plays for the MAC.I don't think many teams would take Omar Jacobs over Vince Young. Seems silly to me, and I hate that kind of argument. Why don't I like Cheerios or Rice Krispies also? I've called Young a potential Superstar for well over a year now....this isn't a new thing for me.

Tulip
01-07-2006, 02:17 PM
tnks, I've had it for years. It's a translated Confucius quote....although he gets credit for a ton of things he never said I think....but I like the message.


Well, I just showed how much I pay attention.

Kaiser Toro
01-07-2006, 02:19 PM
Well, I just showed how much I pay attention.

Diamonds have flaws too. ;)

New_Texans
01-07-2006, 02:20 PM
I just feel like theres so much more we can do if we have Bush than if we have Vince. Instead of having to wait another 2 or 3 drafts to be ready to make a winning season happen.

Vinny
01-07-2006, 02:21 PM
Diamonds have flaws too. ;)I'll give you two immaculate pebbles for your flawed diamond.

tulexan
01-07-2006, 02:21 PM
I don't think many teams would take Omar Jacobs over Vince Young. Seems silly to me, and I hate that kind of argument. Why don't I like Cheerios or Rice Krispies also? I've called Young a potential Superstar for well over a year now....this isn't a new thing for me.

Just like most teams wouldn't take Ben Rothleisberger over Phillip Rivers or Eli Manning because they played in better conferences.

Tulip
01-07-2006, 02:26 PM
Diamonds have flaws too. ;)

:D

Brad - very few people, if any, will stop being fans of the Texans if they take Bush over Young. Being heartbroken isn't the same as having a funeral for your team. It's not like they'd be trading Warren Moon, lol.

Napa Auto Parts
01-07-2006, 03:53 PM
Heres a question for you whats worse, sacks or interceptions? Both are equally as bad but it just makes it worst when a QB Wont throw the ball for statiscall reason when a game is in hand.:homer:

Tulip
01-07-2006, 03:56 PM
Both are equally as bad but it just makes it worst when a QB won throw the ball for statiscall reason when a game is in hand.:homer:

That's a really interesting point. I think Capers taught Carr to fear the interception. Maybe that can be coached out of him, and maybe it can't. I don't know.

Napa Auto Parts
01-07-2006, 03:57 PM
personally i think Carr is a mental set of mind that he will never get out of just look back at this season and see how awfull he looked and times the bad outnumber the good thats for sure.

Tulip
01-07-2006, 04:13 PM
personally i think Carr is a mental set of mind that he will never get out of just look back at this season and see how awfull he looked and times the bad outnumber the good thats for sure.

That's completely possible. He could already be ruined. We just don't know yet.
If the Texans pick up his option and it's too late for him, it's going to get really bad.

Runner
01-07-2006, 04:24 PM
Just like most teams wouldn't take Ben Rothleisberger over Phillip Rivers or Eli Manning because they played in better conferences.

Big Ben is a good recent example that system, coaching, and surrounding talent have major impacts on performance. Pittsburgh was built in such a way that a young QB had a good chance at success when thrust into the starting line-up.

There is a high likelihood that if Rothleisberger and Carr magically switched careers (Ben drafted by us 4 years ago, Dave to Pittsburgh), we'd be calling for Big Ben's head now and pointing to Carr as an example of what a good QB from a young school should be doing.

Vinny
01-07-2006, 04:27 PM
There is a high likelihood that if Rothleisberger and Carr magically switched careers (Ben drafted by us 4 years ago, Dave to Pittsburgh), we'd be calling for Big Ben's head now and pointing to Carr as an example of what a good QB from a young school should be doing.I doubt that. Rothlisberger looks down field when he is scrambling and tends not to sack himself when he has a good pocket.

Runner
01-07-2006, 05:11 PM
I doubt that. Rothlisberger looks down field when he is scrambling and tends not to sack himself when he has a good pocket.

But that's part of my point. I think Ben's good habits my have deteriorated in "Carr-like proportions" if he had to put up with the Texans for the past four years. Almost everyone else on our team has regressed.

Leaving Carr and the Texans out of it, wouldn't you agree that Ben walked into the perfect situation for a rookie QB at Pittsburgh? Good protection, great running game, etc?

caspian
01-07-2006, 05:59 PM
First off, let me say this.

Vince can run the ball... so can Carr (maybe not as much as juker as Young, but he does a good job)
Vince has a strong arm... so does Carr
Vince is a good leader... so is Carr.
Vince is a play-maker... sorry folks, but SO IS CARR.

You all have to understand. I really dont want Carr because I think he hasnt improved, however,

The only difference I see between the two is Vince seems to makes better decisions, better reads, and better ball placement. This is big to the effect that he already beats Carr on these as a junior. That being said, Even though I would LOVE to have him, we cannot take Vince Young. Why might you ask.

Sadly, we have all seen what happen to Vick, McNabb, and the like. Running QB's, while great, have been eventually get torpedoed and hurt. Carr has even got torpedoed, but is stout enough to get back up, which doesnt happen often. If they dont have a O-line. Then the chances are greater of them getting it. If we dont invest in a O-Line this year, then even Carr has a good chance of not getting up very often next year.

Running QB's are fun to watch, but arent fun to watch when your paying them 50+ million to sit on the bench hurt because we havent addressed thier protection. By the way for the Bush Mongers.. Bush goes nowhere without holes. If you want to see why Bush did as well has he did. Watch the videos and NOT look at Bush, but at his supporting cast. He is Awesome, but he has alot of help.

You make some valid points. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but I do think there's more to the decision that hasn't been factored in. Domanick Davis has been the LONE bright spot of our entire offense...consistently...numbers and everything. We might not need an RB as much as a QB. Whether we like it or not, DD has been very good for us...and Bush would be adding to our best skill position (performance-wise).

Carr may or may not have what it takes...he's a risk at this point, though maybe through no fault of his own. Vince Young is a stud, pure and simple. I think he's not a risk. He's 6'4", big, and fast...AND can throw. I think he's a real QB that just happens to have freakish athletic ability.

Dime
01-07-2006, 09:15 PM
You make some valid points. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but I do think there's more to the decision that hasn't been factored in. Domanick Davis has been the LONE bright spot of our entire offense...consistently...numbers and everything. We might not need an RB as much as a QB. Whether we like it or not, DD has been very good for us...and Bush would be adding to our best skill position (performance-wise).

Carr may or may not have what it takes...he's a risk at this point, though maybe through no fault of his own. Vince Young is a stud, pure and simple. I think he's not a risk. He's 6'4", big, and fast...AND can throw. I think he's a real QB that just happens to have freakish athletic ability.

I see your point about Young, but if he doesnt have a Online worth a ****, he will end up hurt with us having a person with huge money sitting hurt. Our priority needs to be the Online. Oline folks.. NOTHING assists DD, Carr, Johnson, Mathis more then a Online. If who ever the QB or RB is, Nothing helps more then a Oline.

Bongo59
01-07-2006, 09:21 PM
http://img450.imageshack.us/img450/7015/vincetitans1cp.jpg



We'll just get used to this picture...................

edo783
01-07-2006, 10:35 PM
http://img450.imageshack.us/img450/7015/vincetitans1cp.jpg



We'll just get used to this picture...................

Could be.

Tulip
01-07-2006, 10:40 PM
http://img450.imageshack.us/img450/7015/vincetitans1cp.jpg



We'll just get used to this picture...................

Yes, but it still hurts. :crying:

thunderkyss
01-09-2006, 11:39 PM
DeAngelo Hall shut down TO way before the attitude got the best of TO. He's not the whole team. NO stud skill player is.



I'd like to know in what game did D'Angelo hall shut down T.O.?? In the game they played, I think Terrell had 8 or 9 catches, for 112 yards. That's the kind of wide reciever I want. When Corners Brag because they've held your WR to 112 yards, you know you got a player.






Don't worry, I'll take care of that attitude.

thunderkyss
01-09-2006, 11:52 PM
I see your point about Young, but if he doesnt have a Online worth a ****, he will end up hurt with us having a person with huge money sitting hurt. Our priority needs to be the Online. Oline folks.. NOTHING assists DD, Carr, Johnson, Mathis more then a Online. If who ever the QB or RB is, Nothing helps more then a Oline.


Well, not exactly.

With Vince, yeah, he'll get sacked, but I'm willing to speculate he'd have only taken half the sacks Carr did. 25% of those should've been sacks, would be busted plays, the other 25% would make the Vince Young Rookie Season Highlight reel.


To read that Carr was second only to Vick in QB rushing yards, is unreal. That's a deceptive stat for sure. What's the difference in Yardage between Carr and Vick....... running. How many of those games did Vick Start, how many did Carr start??

Vince will add a dimension to the game, & that will help the passing game. If we get Bush, we'd still be hurting at O-Line. I don't think Bush is going to help much in pass blocking situations, especially not if you motion him out to WR.

I like Carr, but I really want Vick. The Fact that he's from Houston, and played at Texas only helps me believe that it will happen. And I'll let you guys know right now, 3 years from now, I expect a young'n by the name of Jamall Charles to come into the NFL. I expect he'll have been a Heisman Trophy contender somewhere in that 3 years. Even though I think DD is a good back now, and we don't need a running back, with Wells and Morency in the backfield.... I'll want the Texans to pick him up, if they have the opportunity.

GP
01-09-2006, 11:56 PM
Replay the game and watch TO's facial expression as he's racing to the end zone late in the game when Philly needed a TD (camera man in end zone as TO is coming into the end zone on a deep route) and you will see a very angry TO because the coverage was too good for McNabb to get the ball to him. That was the story of the day: TO got his yards, but it was never at a clutch time when they needed it, such as TO's ability to get deep and hurt teams with the quick score.

Afterwards, the commentators on ESPN did practically a five-minute segment on how well DeAngelo covered TO and limited him to zilch. Yeah, getting yards and ZERO touchdowns was a career day for TO :ok:

Last time I checked, TO makes minced meat out of DBs...and that was a day that DeAngelo Hall shut it down. You're saying you'd take TO? If I were a QB on a team, I'd threaten to demand a trade if I was told TO was coming to my team. All he does is DESTROY teams. Period. He's a train wreck waiting to happen, and the cargo is toxic waste. He can change, but I wouldn't risk my team on trying to be the team that changes him.

djchapa11
01-10-2006, 12:16 AM
What????

There is no way u can compare Vince to Carr.

Young is the best pick all around.

thunderkyss
01-10-2006, 12:25 AM
Afterwards, the commentators on ESPN did practically a five-minute segment on how well DeAngelo covered TO and limited him to zilch. Yeah, getting yards and ZERO touchdowns was a career day for TO :ok:


That's just the media bias against a man willing to speak his mind. IMHO, T.O. was/is right. The problem with that team, is the same guy who took them to the NFC championship Game 4 years straight. The same guy blowing chunks @ the SuperBowl. IMHO, that same media that got Rush Limbaugh fired for telling the truth, speaking his mind, is just trying to keep another man down.

Terrell will be fine, if you are trying to win. I mean doing the things that make sense to win. Get your Quarterback in the Gym an extra day or two. Make him run a few extra miles, make him watch more tape, and turn in a written report. No more commercials, and keep is Mom out of the locker Room.

Jerry Garcia, same thing. That football team was doing the wrong things, at the wrong time, for the wrong reasons. Looked like Terrell was the only one in the SF organization who wanted to win the last two years he was there.

If You put T.O. on a team with a 4 year veteran, that you are still teaching the game to, then you're going to have problems.

EDIT: Forgot to say........ if D'Angelo Hall shut down T.O., then we've got three ProBowl Corners on our team. He got beat for 112yards. Stop listening to those guys on T.V. he didn't get in the endzone, but that's a long way of shut out.

tulexan
01-10-2006, 12:28 AM
Well, not exactly.

With Vince, yeah, he'll get sacked, but I'm willing to speculate he'd have only taken half the sacks Carr did. 25% of those should've been sacks, would be busted plays, the other 25% would make the Vince Young Rookie Season Highlight reel.


To read that Carr was second only to Vick in QB rushing yards, is unreal. That's a deceptive stat for sure. What's the difference in Yardage between Carr and Vick....... running. How many of those games did Vick Start, how many did Carr start??

Vince will add a dimension to the game, & that will help the passing game. If we get Bush, we'd still be hurting at O-Line. I don't think Bush is going to help much in pass blocking situations, especially not if you motion him out to WR.

I like Carr, but I really want Vick. The Fact that he's from Houston, and played at Texas only helps me believe that it will happen. And I'll let you guys know right now, 3 years from now, I expect a young'n by the name of Jamall Charles to come into the NFL. I expect he'll have been a Heisman Trophy contender somewhere in that 3 years. Even though I think DD is a good back now, and we don't need a running back, with Wells and Morency in the backfield.... I'll want the Texans to pick him up, if they have the opportunity.

Do you want Vick or do you want Vince? What is so deceptive about David Carr being #2 in rushing yards for QB's? Vick has 597 yards, Car has 308 yards, and Aaron Brooks has 281 yards. He has less than Vick, but more than Brooks. That means he is #2.

Who said that after we draft Bush we will ignore the OL? I believe that a lot of people think that we can improve the OL in the second and third rounds.

And now you want Jamaal Charles too when he comes out? Do you also want Michael Huff, Cedric Griffin, Rod Wright, David Thomas, and Jonathan Scott too? Maybe we should change our colors to burnt orange and white and change our name to the Longhorns instead of the Texans.

Nighthawk
01-10-2006, 12:29 AM
I would think the difference between Pro and Collage is the deciding factor. Remember that Carr was very good in collage as well....

You may not have been, however. No, but seriously . . . Carr was pretty good in his last year of college, whereas VY was remarkable in 3 years of college. Now Carr has had 4 yrs of NFL to hone his skills and . . . oh! He's gotten a lot worse than he was when playing against Walgreens College of Pharmacy.

GP
01-10-2006, 12:34 AM
"...and keep is Mom out of the locker Room.
..." -- thunderkyss

:rofl: lol: :heh:

I was thinking the same thing.

That's not really HELPING your image, Donovan. I mean, that's the absolute WORST bit of promotional gimmick I have ever seen. What guy sees that commercial and thinks they want mommy chasing them down and forcing soup down their throat? Lame-o. I really ecpected his mom to come running onto the field during the super bowl to hold a throw-up bowl at his ankles for him when he was puking at the end of the game...and maybe she grabs him some 7-up and crackers and makes him change into pajamas on the sideline.

You are a biggambler, thunderkyss. I enjoy your enthusiasm for the risk-taking...but McNair has no need for lockerroom cancers. He's already got a TO that's better at keeping it real (that'd be Andre Johnson)...no need to tie-up franchise dollars on a guy who has bombed two franchises already.

tulexan
01-10-2006, 12:36 AM
How was Vince remarkable his freshman year? He barely could beat out Chance Mock for the starting job and if they were behind and had to throw the ball they would bring in Chance Mock. Last year he was still a liability throwing the ball but a much better runner. This year he is much better in both running and passing.

Tulip
01-10-2006, 12:44 AM
How was Vince remarkable his freshman year? He barely could beat out Chance Mock for the starting job and if they were behind and had to throw the ball they would bring in Chance Mock. Last year he was still a liability throwing the ball but a much better runner. This year he is much better in both running and passing.

I remember seeing him play (in person) against Nebraska in 2003, and he looked pretty good. It was one of his three 100+ yard rushing games that year. In his first start, he had a 70% completion percentage. His record was 6-1 as a starter.

Chance Mock was given the same sort of "two quarterback" fake merit system treatment that Major Applewhite was given. Totally phony.

thunderkyss
01-10-2006, 12:51 AM
Do you want Vick or do you want Vince? What is so deceptive about David Carr being #2 in rushing yards for QB's? Vick has 597 yards, Car has 308 yards, and Aaron Brooks has 281 yards. He has less than Vick, but more than Brooks. That means he is #2.
Vick runs, he makes plays, his team wins. Carr runs almost as much as Vick, and we've got the 16th rushing attack, and 29th passing offense??

Who said that after we draft Bush we will ignore the OL? I believe that a lot of people think that we can improve the OL in the second and third rounds.

To make an impact, I think we need two studs. One through the first round, the other through Free agency. I don't think we'll be able to get two OLinemen who can make a difference in FA. I don't see two in the Draft, I don't see one of the two past the first round. Your Line won't be as good, as it would be if you did the right thing, and trade down, or trade the pick for an Offensive lineman+

And now you want Jamaal Charles too when he comes out? Do you also want Michael Huff, Cedric Griffin, Rod Wright, David Thomas, and Jonathan Scott too? Maybe we should change our colors to burnt orange and white and change our name to the Longhorns instead of the Texans.
I'm from Port Arthur.... It would mean a lot to me. If he were to have a heisman season, I'd be hurt, alienated, and disenfranchised if they didn't.

thunderkyss
01-10-2006, 12:54 AM
I remember seeing him play against Nebraska in 2003, and he looked pretty good. It was one of his three 100+ yard rushing games that year. In his first start, he had a 70% completion percentage. His record was 6-1 as a starter.

Chance Mock was given the same sort of "two quarterback" fake merit system treatment that Major Applewhite was given. Totally phony.

Totally agree. We've been screaming to see more Vince. This was during the time when Mack Brown was trying to mold Vince.

thunderkyss
01-10-2006, 12:59 AM
"...and keep his Mom out of the locker Room.
..." -- thunderkyss

:rofl: lol: :heh:

I was thinking the same thing.

That's not really HELPING your image, Donovan.
It's not about his image, it's about keeping his head in the game. It would be cool, if he could do the commercials, and not throw away games, but he can't.


You are a biggambler, thunderkyss. I enjoy your enthusiasm for the risk-taking...but McNair has no need for lockerroom cancers. He's already got a TO that's better at keeping it real (that'd be Andre Johnson)...no need to tie-up franchise dollars on a guy who has bombed two franchises already.
I agree with you 94.65%. I don't think we need T.O. with Johnson on the team, we don't have a place for him. My point, is that T.O. wasn't the Cancer. He's the only person wearing green, who is willing to say what the problem is in Philly. Donavan has more pull in Philly, than Reid, and that ain't good. They won't go anywhere. Kinda like Dallas, with all those "coaches" they went through. Only it won't be so bad, since no one will be able to figure out what the problem is. They'll get rid of Reid, and find another coach, that will work with McNabb.....and that's their problem.

tulexan
01-10-2006, 01:02 AM
Carr actually runs half as much as Vick and has about half as many yards. I believe Vick averages 5.9 ypc while Carr averages 5.5 ypc.

Carr also has better passing statistics than Vick and has for the past few years. Believe it or not, but a lot of the Falcons success is due to their very good defense. I believe they had one of the best in the league last year and their record reflects it.

This draft is very deep with OL talent. A few linemen who would generally be first round talent will fall to the second round because of players like LenDale White, Omar Jacobs, Vernon Davis, and a bunch of other very talented mid first round underclassmen declaring.

We also don't know what our HC is going to do with the OL. It seems like we are going to have Kubiak from Denver and there are rumors that he may bring the OL coach with him. Proper coaching alone may really improve the line. Improper coaching destroyed it, so you have to think that there is a possibility to undo the damage.

HJam72
01-10-2006, 01:10 AM
If I were a new HC coming to this team, I'd say, "I don't need a tall, skinny RB and I don't need to spend a #1 pick on a QB when we already have one. What I do need is some linemen who can freaking block and a major defensive over-haul, especially looking at your rediculous selection of safeties. Oh, and I'm not too sure about your kicker either."

GP
01-10-2006, 01:12 AM
"...My point, is that T.O. wasn't the Cancer. He's the only person wearing green, who is willing to say what the problem is in Philly...." -- thunderkyss

---------------------------

Really? Wow.

So this TO guy should stop playing football and start his career as a consultant to poor little old teams that don't know what their REAL problem is? Sounds like he's a star at something else other than fire-bombing teams.

Contrary to popular belief, the person who yells the loudest nor the longest is NOT always right. I know, I know: Stand up for what's right and don't let "the man" get you down. I just don't see boogey-men behind every bush (pardon the pun).

TO has the ability to be a pretty decent person, but his decision making is scarcely the same level as the Donovan McNabbs of the world.

In fact, he's actually a pretty big coward. He just shoots his mouth when he gets frustrated. Marcus Vick, on the other hand, might pull a gun and shoot PEOPLE when het gets frustrated. And it seems Carr just plays awful when he gets frustrated.

Come to think of it, isn't it funny how we each react to difficult situations?

Hopefully Bob and the new head coach can salvage this franchise. Maybe they'll finally address the most glaring NEED we;'ve had for four years: a true star at OL to anchor this team and protect ANY quarterback's blindside that might be getting the ball snapped his way?

thunderkyss
01-10-2006, 01:17 AM
This draft is very deep with OL talent. A few linemen who would generally be first round talent will fall to the second round because of players like LenDale White, Omar Jacobs, Vernon Davis, and a bunch of other very talented mid first round underclassmen declaring.

We also don't know what our HC is going to do with the OL. It seems like we are going to have Kubiak from Denver and there are rumors that he may bring the OL coach with him. Proper coaching alone may really improve the line. Improper coaching destroyed it, so you have to think that there is a possibility to undo the damage.
If this is true, with a 16 ranked rushing offense, and a 29th ranked passing offense, I'll spend my draft pick on the passing game before I spend it on a Running back.

But the smart move would be to work on the offensive line. Just like there are many here posting that we can't judge Carr because of the Oline, it's the same with the D. You keep going three and out, and turning the ball over on the short side of the field, your D is going to look bad.

But if I were asked my opinion, I'd say take Vince, and free up some money elsewhere. restructure some contracts, cut an overpriced someone or other, or something, Find a way to bring Vince to Houston.

Bobo
01-10-2006, 01:19 AM
If I were a new HC coming to this team, I'd say, "I don't need a tall, skinny RB and I don't need to spend a #1 pick on a QB when we already have one. What I do need is some linemen who can freaking block and a major defensive over-haul, especially looking at your rediculous selection of safeties. Oh, and I'm not too sure about your kicker either."

I trust we will get a coach like this. However, we'll probably end up with Klunker Kubiak who will end up drafting Bush and send the team into yet another double digit loss season.

Bobo
01-10-2006, 01:24 AM
You may not have been, however. No, but seriously . . . Carr was pretty good in his last year of college, whereas VY was remarkable in 3 years of college. Now Carr has had 4 yrs of NFL to hone his skills and . . . oh! He's gotten a lot worse than he was when playing against Walgreens College of Pharmacy.

Irrelevant. The Texans are in a lot worse shape in a heckuva lot of other postions than they are at QB and RB. Young won't be that much of an improvement over Carr -- especially without an improved line. Knowledgeable football people throughout the country would laugh if the Texans took Young since it would be such an obvious boneheaded hometown pick when everybody knows the Texans have much more pressing needs elsewhere.

GP
01-10-2006, 01:28 AM
"...If this is true, with a 16 ranked rushing offense, and a 29th ranked passing offense, I'll spend my draft pick on the passing game before I spend it on a Running back.

But the smart move would be to work on the offensive line." --thunderkyss

--------------

Dude!

You are blatantly back-peddaling with that comment.

I thought the smart move was VY?

Are you not AGREEING with me now? I have always said from day one of this whole messy debate that we ought to go o line, and you have been anti-o line pick from the get-go. It's all about the highlight maker and never about the guy or guys who help "facilitate" the playmaker. That's obvious in your assumption that TO is not the "real problem," but that he just helps uncover the "real problem" everywhere he goes. It's an 11-man game, bro. a "team" effort.

Wade is known as a great run blocker, thus he's on the right side of the line. What we DON'T have is a great left tackle who can consistently protect ANY quarterback we might have behind center.

You don't get "great" run blocker skils AND "great" pass blocking skills within each o lineman...they pretty much are great at either run or pass but not both unless they are just out-of-this-world god-gifted or something. And that's why we need a great pass blocker on the left side of the line.

THAT ALONE will be neough to take pressure off Wade. Yes, he'll still need to give it his all on pass blocking, but this year's lack of a great left tackle has been the achille's heel of this team....not a bad QB. Carr is not perfect, don't get me wrong, but VY is not the instant meal that he's being touted by people in the press and especially here on this board.

thunderkyss
01-10-2006, 09:51 AM
I'll have to go look through my posts. I do believe you'll see one or two, where I've been saying O-Line, we don't need Bush..... I've always been that way, and I've always maintained that if CC picks up Bush, then he really is an *****.

But after watching the Rose Bowl, and Listening to Vince ho-hum about talking it through, and making the right decision about coming to the NFL..... everything changed. not because of his performance in that one game, he's been getting better over the last 18 months. But before that, I was convinced that no Mack Brown Player was going to leave early.
I've got connections and sources Close to Vince, and until that day, they all believed he was going to play for Texas as a Senior.
My gut, the Emotional side of me, says we should take advantage of the situation. He is special, and I think can make an impact his first year. Our offense isn't very complicated, and I think he could do just as good picking up on Defenses, as our 4 year vet. I'm thinking Byron Leftwich type of first season. He sits on the bench, but he is our #2. maybe we can get an O-Lineman for Banks, Morency and Bradford.
The smart move, is always to address needs during the Draft. We don't need Running Backs, We don't need a QB, but I would like to see something better than Banks behind Carr. Vince Young will make a better Back-up/Future in case something really bad happens to Carr, than any other back-up quarterback in the league today, and I think he is worth the #1 overall for it.

It may sound like double talk, but..... I'd take Young..... even though the smart thing is to address needs.

Dime
01-10-2006, 11:57 AM
If I were a new HC coming to this team, I'd say, "I don't need a tall, skinny RB and I don't need to spend a #1 pick on a QB when we already have one. What I do need is some linemen who can freaking block and a major defensive over-haul, especially looking at your rediculous selection of safeties. Oh, and I'm not too sure about your kicker either."

Yes on everything but the kicker statement

tulexan
01-10-2006, 12:06 PM
You don't draft a QB #1 to be a backup

cadahnic
01-10-2006, 12:11 PM
You may not have been, however. No, but seriously . . . Carr was pretty good in his last year of college, whereas VY was remarkable in 3 years of college. Now Carr has had 4 yrs of NFL to hone his skills and . . . oh! He's gotten a lot worse than he was when playing against Walgreens College of Pharmacy.

Vince Young remarkable for three years of college? What the hell are you talking about?

tulexan
01-10-2006, 12:14 PM
I would say that he was remarkable for 1 season because last year he was still a liability to throw the ball.

Frills
01-10-2006, 12:20 PM
R. Kelly likes Young Bush

HardKnockTexan
01-10-2006, 12:20 PM
even if we end up keeping Carr. This way we can controll what team he goes to. I'd love to see Young running our offense but if the front office decides our best way to go is to trade down I'd HATE to see young on the Titans. So IMO we draft him #1 overall and then pick which team we want to trade him to... maybe NY Jets. Atleast that way we dont have to worry about him destroying us twice a year.

MorKnolle
01-10-2006, 12:30 PM
You may not have been, however. No, but seriously . . . Carr was pretty good in his last year of college, whereas VY was remarkable in 3 years of college. Now Carr has had 4 yrs of NFL to hone his skills and . . . oh! He's gotten a lot worse than he was when playing against Walgreens College of Pharmacy.

I agree cada, let's see Young's remarkable 3 years:
2003: 84/143-58.7%-1155 yards-6 TDs/7 INTs, 135 carries-998 yards-11 TDs
2004: 148/250-59.2%-1849 yards-12 TDs/11 INTs, 167 carries-1079 yards-14 TDs
2005: 212/325-65.2%-3036 yards-26 TDs/10 INTs, 155 carries-1050 yards-10 TDs

That's far from remarkable passing stats, he ran pretty well throughout his career but only had one decent year of throwing the ball. David's senior year he led the nation in passing yards (4308) and TDs (42)

Here is a comparison of their career stats:
David: 37 games, 587/934-62.6%-7849 yards-70 TDs/23 INTs
Vince: 38 games, 444/718-61.8%-6040 yards-44 TDs/28 INTs, 457 carries-3127 yards-35 TDs

Carr appeared in fewer games, completed a higher percentage of his passes, had a lot more yards and TDs and fewer interceptions, so from a passing standpoint Carr cleary had the better career, so I don't see Vince having 3 "remarkable" years compared to David's one "pretty good" year.

thunderkyss
01-10-2006, 01:16 PM
You don't draft a QB #1 to be a backup


'scuse me??

thunderkyss
01-10-2006, 01:18 PM
even if we end up keeping Carr. This way we can controll what team he goes to. I'd love to see Young running our offense but if the front office decides our best way to go is to trade down I'd HATE to see young on the Titans. So IMO we draft him #1 overall and then pick which team we want to trade him to... maybe NY Jets. Atleast that way we dont have to worry about him destroying us twice a year.


If you're under the impression that he can destroy a team, then you pick him up. Why would you give him away??

If Carr went to Tenessee, would you be afraid that he'll destroy us twice a year??

Maybe we should pick up all the Quarterbacks??

thunderkyss
01-10-2006, 01:30 PM
I agree cada, let's see Young's remarkable 3 years:
2003: 84/143-58.7%-1155 yards-6 TDs/7 INTs, 135 carries-998 yards-11 TDs
2004: 148/250-59.2%-1849 yards-12 TDs/11 INTs, 167 carries-1079 yards-14 TDs
2005: 212/325-65.2%-3036 yards-26 TDs/10 INTs, 155 carries-1050 yards-10 TDs

That's far from remarkable passing stats, he ran pretty well throughout his career but only had one decent year of throwing the ball. David's senior year he led the nation in passing yards (4308) and TDs (42)

Here is a comparison of their career stats:
David: 37 games, 587/934-62.6%-7849 yards-70 TDs/23 INTs
Vince: 38 games, 444/718-61.8%-6040 yards-44 TDs/28 INTs, 457 carries-3127 yards-35 TDs

Carr appeared in fewer games, completed a higher percentage of his passes, had a lot more yards and TDs and fewer interceptions, so from a passing standpoint Carr cleary had the better career, so I don't see Vince having 3 "remarkable" years compared to David's one "pretty good" year.


Okay, let's do a win loss percentage of the teams they faced in those three years.. Car's 1.8% advantage at completion percentages is negated by who they played, compared to who Vince Played. The yards, TDs, and INTs are actually much closer than they look when you factor in the opponent. Vince's ints actually puts him into the plus column when you do.

If we were the Indianapolis Colts, or New England Patriots who hardly give up sacks, this would be less of an issue. Next years Offensive Line should be better next year, but it ain't garaunteed. With this years line, you couldn't have expected anyone to have done much better than Carr, But I would have liked to have seen how Vince would've handled it. Vince/Vick/McNabb/Donavan those are the types of quarterbacks you want behind young inexperienced Offensive linemen.

And I am in no way saying that Carr isn't a good athlete. I'd say he's on par with Vince, he's got a better arm than Vince. But that doesn't mean he's right for this team. It really doesn't make since, since this team was built aroun Carr, but that's the way it is.

We need to get better at offensive line, no doubt. But I don't want to wait till we have ProBowlers at every position before we start winning games.

Dennis007
01-10-2006, 01:39 PM
And I am in no way saying that Carr isn't a good athlete. I'd say he's on par with Vince, he's got a better arm than Vince. But that doesn't mean he's right for this team. It really doesn't make since, since this team was built aroun Carr, but that's the way it is.

We need to get better at offensive line, no doubt. But I don't want to wait till we have ProBowlers at every position before we start winning games.:redtowel:

Ditto!:banana:

texplayer2
01-11-2006, 12:21 PM
And I am in no way saying that Carr isn't a good athlete. I'd say he's on par with Vince, he's got a better arm than Vince. But that doesn't mean he's right for this team. It really doesn't make since, since this team was built aroun Carr, but that's the way it is.

We need to get better at offensive line, no doubt. But I don't want to wait till we have ProBowlers at every position before we start winning games.

The teams was not built around Carr? They picked a Defensive coach to start the franchise for a reason. It was built around our D. with a cursory look at offense, which was then being developed in the draft. The coaching premise didn't work and has been eliminated. We do need to help our team as a whole and this drafts best players at the top are offensive guys. With the first pick we should pick one of those period. If their were a LT defensive guy in the draft I would be for picking him. You have to go with the flow, and take what you can get.

GP
01-11-2006, 03:58 PM
"..It may sound like double talk, but..... I'd take Young..... even though the smart thing is to address needs." -- thunderkyss

---------------------------------

You also say that you don't want us to have "pro bowlers" at every position before we start winning.

I say we ain't gonna win in the AFC right now unless we DO have a few potential pro bowlers on our team, and it can't be all on the QB/WR/RB position. It takes great o linemen to facilitate playmakers--That's just common knowledge that we all should know by now.

Your idea that we become instant Pasadena Rose Bowl 2006 repeat-performers with Young as QB is wishful thinking at best. Sometimes I really wish the Longhorns had stunk it up and Bush had blwon the doors off the game and everything would be soooooo much simpler right now. All Young did in Pasadena was muddy the water in terms of what we should do with our No. 1 pick. And that's why I STILL say that we ought to trade the pick and get the 'Brick.

Now THAT is the smart move. But hey, it's not sexy and it don't make highlight reels each day...and to some fans around here they're more caught up and concerned in us getting the Sportscenter tabloid face-time each day rather than having a true NFL machine like the Patriots and Steelers who (GASP!) make those ugly o line picks late on day one while Detroit and Cleveland go grab the savior of the year according to the hype machine.

Trade the pick and get the 'Brick. Build this team up with even MORE draft picks than we have right now, and we got quite a few this year...especially in the higher rounds. Can you imagine if we traded with someone, still got the 'Brick, and then ALSO added yet another 2nd round or third round pick as a result?

Dime
01-12-2006, 12:24 PM
I am sorry, but we need too many things then 1 man with a huge cap hit can provide us right now. We need a complete Online, a replacement for coleman who is good in my book, but he preformance is deminishing. We also need backups, and and future replacements for our DL and DE's. I also think we need a better MLB as well. I will give P-buc 1 more year to prove his worth, but it isnt looking good for him.

WE NEED PICKS!!!!! Trade down is ONLY OPTION this year so we can secure more picks and help the team get personel.

If anyone of you believe that Jimmy Johnson is a Awesome team/player evalurater, he stated 'this Texan team does not have the talent to win'. One player will not complete the talent we need.

MorKnolle
01-12-2006, 12:27 PM
I am sorry, but we need too many things then 1 man with a huge cap hit can provide us right now. We need a complete Online, a replacement for coleman who is good in my book, but he preformance is deminishing. We also need backups, and and future replacements for our DL and DE's. I also think we need a better MLB as well. I will give P-buc 1 more year to prove his worth, but it isnt looking good for him.

WE NEED PICKS!!!!! Trade down is ONLY OPTION this year so we can secure more picks and help the team get personel.

If anyone of you believe that Jimmy Johnson is a Awesome team/player evalurater, he stated 'this Texan team does not have the talent to win'. One player will not complete the talent we need.

In addition to Jimmy's quote, Mark Schlereth on NFL Live last weekend said that both Bush and Young will be good players, but they will not be able to help the Texans at all until they improve the rest of their team and that they should trade down and actually build up the team around the few young stars that they have.

Dime
01-12-2006, 12:42 PM
In addition to Jimmy's quote, Mark Schlereth on NFL Live last weekend said that both Bush and Young will be good players, but they will not be able to help the Texans at all until they improve the rest of their team and that they should trade down and actually build up the team around the few young stars that they have.

I agree.. they are good player, hell.. they are awesome players... but not on this team without a supporting cast. If they are on this team without supporting players, there are just decent and have a chance to get hurt because of other inapt players. Also, if we dont trade down, we are going to have cap problems since we have a few overpaid players, for the next few years, and a Bush or Young wont help that either.

titan hater
01-12-2006, 12:43 PM
In addition to Jimmy's quote, Mark Schlereth on NFL Live last weekend said that both Bush and Young will be good players, but they will not be able to help the Texans at all until they improve the rest of their team and that they should trade down and actually build up the team around the few young stars that they have.

I am beginning to feel that MorKnolle's quote of JJ and MS is correct...If we trade down I would think that CC will get a great value in return...ala: Hawk, D'Brick, etc...I can not imagine even CC screwing this pick up...whether its VY or Bush or a trade I can't see us losing...But, for what its worth, I feel like we should trade the pick and get some more value on Defense as well as offense. If we trade the pick we are in a complete rebuilding stage...If we draft VY we are in a rebuilding stage...Please remember that although we were bad last year, things did seem to improve offensively once we got rid of the old OC...Granted not right away...but there was some improvement. If we take Reggie I feel that offensively we would be competitive. Defensively things will look about the same barring some great DC coming in. Sorry for the ramble, but this whole thing has got me rather confused...Can't wait for April though...

Chance_C
01-12-2006, 12:56 PM
Trade the pick and get the 'Brick.

LOL. I like that, and I happen to agree with it.

U4ikrob
01-12-2006, 02:20 PM
".... Trade the pick and get the 'Brick. Build this team up with even MORE draft picks than we have right now, and we got quite a few this year...especially in the higher rounds. Can you imagine if we traded with someone, still got the 'Brick, and then ALSO added yet another 2nd round or third round pick as a result?

Since we have so many of these darn threads bouncing around here I'm going with the - I said pretty much the same thing on another thread and agree Whole-heartedly GPShafer - We lack so much depth on this team in so many places its amazing we made it to year 4 before the wheels started coming off. The coaches blew it this year big time and I hate to say it but I knew back in TC when I went to go watch practice and they didnt show up then. The Texans did like most teams do - They play pretty much like they practiced. Since they practiced sloppy and played un-inspired - it translated into the season the same way. Couple that with the staff's ignoring of McNair's request for an O-line to protect Carr and here we are in year 4 with #1 pick again.

Like the man above said "Trade the pick - Get the 'Brick"

thunderkyss
01-12-2006, 03:01 PM
All Young did in Pasadena was muddy the water in terms of what we should do with our No. 1 pick. And that's why I STILL say that we ought to trade the pick and get the 'Brick.



no, no, no, no,no,no,no...... don't you go blaming that on Vince. You had sooooo many people in the stands with their smiling Faces, and their Bush Bowl signs.Then you've got team management confirming that we'll pick Bush withthe First pick in the Draft.....don't blame Vince for muddying any water. If anything Vince is turning that muddy water into wine. IF we aren't going to trade down, it would be much better to pick Vince, that it would be to add a 4th potential NFL Running back to our stable.