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chuckm
01-06-2006, 01:50 PM
anyone else listening to this?

interesting tidbits

1) David Carr is an infinitely better passer than Vince Young
2) Vince Young will not be able to run around in the NFL like he does in college
3) Carr is almost as fast as Young
4) Bush to the Texans, he doesn't think New Orleans would take Young
5) lots of evaluting left to be done

donbmt
01-06-2006, 01:51 PM
Chris Mortenson just said on the Dan Patrick that there is "no way" the Texans take Young, he even said that Carr is the better QB and could probably beat Young in the 40.

Just for the record, I agree, all this talk about the next Charlie Ward/Michael Vick is starting to really wear on me.

SBTexans08
01-06-2006, 01:53 PM
I'm all for David Carr as well. Carr has a better arm, has scrambling ability....damn good one too, nice legs. Has NFL experience. All Carr needs is a good coaching staff. One that will take advantage of Carr's strenghts and actually teach the kid a thing or two, what you would call coaching....not whatever it was that Capers & Co. supposedly were doing.

Let's not forget an O-line, a TE, and a #2 WR. Bam....Texans are set...on offense that is.

Coach C.
01-06-2006, 01:56 PM
I am not gonna say DC has more straight line speed that Young, but everyone already knew he was the better passer. This is nothing new just more sensationalism to try and provoke the masses into debate.

GP
01-06-2006, 01:58 PM
Us fans are in the habit of seeing such bad coaching that we are attributing the bad play and the bad record to the players, not fully understanding that it takes two to tango.

I almost fell for the "Trade Carr's sorry rear" about mid-season, but I regained my composure and I am now firmly of the belief that you ride out the storm with Carr and see what better coaching and better o line protection will do for the team.

If Carr is still at the same level of performance, then it's time for him to go somewhere else and see if he can flourish there.

I'm actually sorta' OK with Bush at No. 1, but I still hope we draft an o lineman in the first round. We've never done it, and we need to IMO.

bigTEXan8
01-06-2006, 01:59 PM
That may be pushing it if Carr is faster than Young. Young is a burner.

HoustonFrog
01-06-2006, 02:00 PM
anyone else listening to this?

interesting tidbits

1) David Carr is an infinitely better passer than Vince Young
2) Vince Young will not be able to run around in the NFL like he does in college
3) Carr is almost as fast as Young
4) Bush to the Texans, he doesn't think New Orleans would take Young
5) lots of evaluting left to be done

1) Right now, yes
2)True
3) Not even close--lie
4) Agree
5) True

The 40 yard dash is such a bull thing. Young would win and in gneral Vinces speed/quickness and acceleration is what sets him apart.

Scooter
01-06-2006, 02:02 PM
i'm not sure when it was determined that carr was actually fast. honestly, i'd put him as about the same speed as brady or the mannings. the only difference is that carr's always on the run (and half of the time cant even get back to the LOS). pure arm, i think carr's got the obvious lead. like coach said though, it's a bunch of hype being created. these guys are no different from the posters on this forum. if one of em has a man-crush on reggie bush, then he's going to talk down on his closest competitor to try to make a point ... and vice versa.

GP
01-06-2006, 02:02 PM
Yeah, the speed argument is total bunk.

That was pretty weak, Mr. Mortensen.

Geez...........

HoustonFrog
01-06-2006, 02:04 PM
Yeah, the speed argument is total bunk.

That was pretty weak, Mr. Mortensen.

Geez...........

Agreed. He wrote yesterday trying to put him down. I used to like Mort but since he now fancies himself as the ONLY inside the NFL guy he makes some pretty moronic observations. I wish people called him every time one of his rumors didn't pan out. It happens often.

Jack Bauer
01-06-2006, 02:04 PM
That may be pushing it if Carr is faster than Young. Young is a burner.

Speed can be deceiving. Speed is "relative". Carr is running around among NFL speed, while Young has been running around among NCAA speed. There is a difference and this makes Young look faster than he will look in the NFL. See Mike Vick. What Young has is an elusiveness that Carr doesn't have.

SBTexans08
01-06-2006, 02:04 PM
Us fans are in the habit of seeing such bad coaching that we are attributing the bad play and the bad record to the players, not fully understanding that it takes two to tango.

I almost fell for the "Trade Carr's sorry rear" about mid-season, but I regained my composure and I am now firmly of the belief that you ride out the storm with Carr and see what better coaching and better o line protection will do for the team.

If Carr is still at the same level of performance, then it's time for him to go somewhere else and see if he can flourish there.

I'm actually sorta' OK with Bush at No. 1, but I still hope we draft an o lineman in the first round. We've never done it, and we need to IMO.

Yes sir. The benefit of the doubt has to be given to Carr. I mean...c'mon...the kid came into an expansion team as a rookie starter with no veteran to learn from. He's never had an O-line. We've seen what he can do on offense, many games come into mind where the offense looked spectacular...where the Texans weren't playing like the Texans, all conservative but rather like a high flying-potent offense. However...thanks to Capers....Carr and his weapons could do much but audible a run down the middle for a loss.

I'd hate for Carr to go to another team, with a competent O-line along with a respectable coaching staff all because we never really gave him things that other QBs have and need and thus have success. We can't bash Carr until he has what's needed. Once he has that O-line, that TE, that #2 WR, a coaching staff that's improved the offense giving Carr opportunities to make strides in.....but Carr continues to hinder this team from progressing throwing INTs, making bad/costly mistakes......then he should be let go. Cause then...without a doubt...the guy's a dud. That can't be said of him now.

tulexan
01-06-2006, 02:06 PM
Carr is pretty fast, but I would say that Young is faster than him. He isn't as fast as Matt Jones or Michael Vick, but I would say that his 40 time is in the 4.4's. Carr is probably closer to 4.6 or a little higher. Not too bad.

chuckm
01-06-2006, 02:06 PM
I'd hate for Carr to go to another team, with a competent O-line along with a respectable coaching staff all because we never really gave him things that other QBs have and need and thus have success. We can't bash Carr until he has what's needed. Once he has that O-line, that TE, that #2 WR, a coaching staff that's improved the offense giving Carr opportunities to make strides in.....but Carr continues to hinder this team from progressing throwing INTs, making bad/costly mistakes......then he should be let go. Cause then...without a doubt...the guy's a dud. That can't be said of him now.


he shoots, he scores ...

bigTEXan8
01-06-2006, 02:07 PM
Yeah...that' true. I think VY also has a little better balance than Carr.

LCOOL
01-06-2006, 02:10 PM
anyone else listening to this?

interesting tidbits

1) David Carr is an infinitely better passer than Vince Young
2) Vince Young will not be able to run around in the NFL like he does in college
3) Carr is almost as fast as Young
4) Bush to the Texans, he doesn't think New Orleans would take Young
5) lots of evaluting left to be done
Chris Mortenesen doesn't know anything, he probably dosen't think a black quaterback can make it along with teh only the other naysayers, for a while a black college quaterback will be a reciever in the NFL, and know they are starters on a lot of pro teams, how many times does vy has to prove himself, there are so many racial overtones about vy, this a shame. The brotha is good,so give him his props!

HoustonFrog
01-06-2006, 02:11 PM
he shoots, he scores ...

I'm thinking people just have different ways of looking at things. You can't put together the perfect team and THEN give a guy a shot. Franchise QBS make things happen and grow in the worst situations. Is the line horrible..you bet!However I remember Bledsoe getting his bell rung alot and when Brady stepped in with the same line, he thrived. Not saying Banks is the man,,he isn't close but he didn't get touched for the most part in the 49ers game and still had time to throw, albeit badly, compared to Carr. Carr HASNT learned and THAT is his problem. He makes the same mistakes over and over. It is like the shock treatment hasn't phased him and he wants it his way.

Jack Bauer
01-06-2006, 02:11 PM
Chris Mortenesen doesn't know anything, he probably dosen't think a black quaterback can make it along with teh only the other naysayers, for a while a black college quaterback will be a reciever in the NFL, and know they are starters on a lot of pro teams, how many times does vy has to prove himself, there are so many racial overtones about vy, this a shame. The brotha is good,so give him his props!

The first I heard about VY's race being a factor was this post.

tulexan
01-06-2006, 02:12 PM
Chris Mortenesen doesn't know anything, he probably dosen't think a black quaterback can make it along with teh only the other naysayers, for a while a black college quaterback will be a reciever in the NFL, and know they are starters on a lot of pro teams, how many times does vy has to prove himself, there are so many racial overtones about vy, this a shame. The brotha is good,so give him his props!


Is that why he compared him to white QB Matt Jones? Race has nothing to do with scouts liking or not liking Vince Young.

Coach C.
01-06-2006, 02:12 PM
LCOOL I understand a certain race card play, but brotha it is not here and not now. Some of us that are critical of VY are black and not because of the crab mentality our people display, but because he does have issues in his game like every player. Mortensen may hate our people, but regardless he has to respect our abilities. The man has scouted and watched more football than most on this board and I would doubt that he feels a white, black, asian, or hispanic QB can play better than any other.

tulexan
01-06-2006, 02:13 PM
I'm thinking people just have different ways of looking at things. You can't put together the perfect team and THEN give a guy a shot. Franchise QBS make things happen and grow in the worst situations. Is the line horrible..you bet!However I remember Bledsoe getting his bell rung alot and when Brady stepped in with the same line, he thrived. Not saying Banks is the man,,he isn't close but he didn't get touched for the most part in the 49ers game and still had time to throw, albeit badly, compared to Carr. Carr HASNT learned and THAT is his problem. He makes the same mistakes over and over. It is like the shock treatment hasn't phased him and he wants it his way.


Carr didn't get sacked against the Niners either, so what is your point?

chuckm
01-06-2006, 02:13 PM
However I remember Bledsoe getting his bell rung alot and when Brady stepped in with the same line, he thrived.


if memory serves, Bledsoe got knocked out of a playoff game when Brady stepped in ... so I wouldn't exactly say that Brady turned things around ...

Double Barrel
01-06-2006, 02:15 PM
We can't forget Carr led the AFC in rushing for QBs in 2004. He's not the prototypical "running QB", but he's got that skill at his disposal.

I'm iffy on my take on his passing skills, though. Sometimes he threads the needle and looks brilliant, but other times the throws just fall short of an open receiver. This could be blown routes, because our WR corps is not the greatest. But he still has that sidearm throw, too, which is a detriment in the NFL.

The Young pick would be a long term project behind our current 2-14 offense. No way does he make an immediate impact on this team. Just being a rookie QB in the NFL is tough, but then behind a line that has given up 200+ sacks in 4 years makes it an uphill struggle.

I think NFL defenses are answering the call of running QBs. Not that they won't be an impact, but I don't see them as the "new way" of the NFL that will make drop-back passers a thing of the past. Young has to develop his QB skills to succeed over the long run. If/when he does, he'll be a force to be reckoned with in the NFL.

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2006, 02:17 PM
Chris Mortenesen doesn't know anything, he probably dosen't think a black quaterback can make it along with teh only the other naysayers, for a while a black college quaterback will be a reciever in the NFL, and know they are starters on a lot of pro teams, how many times does vy has to prove himself, there are so many racial overtones about vy, this a shame. The brotha is good,so give him his props!

What does color have to do with the success or non success of a QB? Please back up your opinion on why Mortensen probably does not think a black QB can make it.

tulexan
01-06-2006, 02:18 PM
Bledsoe was "scrambling" and took a big hit out of bounds.

GP
01-06-2006, 02:23 PM
Carr and Young are both fiery competitors. The guy that acts like he's too cool for school is Leinart...that guy just absolutely rubs me wrong. He's that sort of guy that just blows everything off, but Carr and Young are two guys that will not only EXHIBIT fire, but they will straight-up bring it to the defense if they have to. I;m thinking Leinart is that Bledsoe type of player that won't take lick if he can help it.

chuckm
01-06-2006, 02:26 PM
Chris Mortenesen doesn't know anything, he probably dosen't think a black quaterback can make it along with teh only the other naysayers, for a while a black college quaterback will be a reciever in the NFL, and know they are starters on a lot of pro teams, how many times does vy has to prove himself, there are so many racial overtones about vy, this a shame. The brotha is good,so give him his props!


first of all you'll be hard pressed to find ANYONE on this board that isn't giving him his "props" ... jeeez people are practically on bended knee .... but to insinuate that Mortensen's views are racially-motivated is weak ...

LCOOL
01-06-2006, 02:29 PM
LCOOL I understand a certain race card play, but brotha it is not here and not now. Some of us that are critical of VY are black and not because of the crab mentality our people display, but because he does have issues in his game like every player. Mortensen may hate our people, but regardless he has to respect our abilities. The man has scouted and watched more football than most on this board and I would doubt that he feels a white, black, asian, or hispanic QB can play better than any other.
I'm not trying to place a race card here, but I'm just making an observation of some things I heard on the radio and tv. I just think everybody should be given a fair shake, and I dont think VY has, he probably should have won the heisman, I still hear today that black quaterbacks can't read defenses, all they can do is scramble etc and I even hear this in my workplace, this is my opionion and I have a right to express it. Every player should be examined fairly and not with bias.

chuckm
01-06-2006, 02:34 PM
I'm not trying to play the race card

that is exactly what you did ..... how can you say



Chris Mortenesen doesn't know anything, he probably dosen't think a black quaterback can make it

then say you're not playing the race card?

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2006, 02:35 PM
I'm not trying to place a race card here, but I'm just making an observation of some things I heard on the radio and tv. I just think everybody should be given a fair shake, and I dont think VY has, he probably should have won the heisman, I still hear today that black quaterbacks can't read defenses, all they can do is scramble etc and I even hear this in my workplace, this is my opionion and I have a right to express it. Every player should be examined fairly and not with bias.

Which black QB's can't read defenses? He should have won the Heisman, but Bush won. Was that racial? I have seen not one person on this board say that VY cannot read defenses, but I have seen many incudling myself say that Carr cannot. You may want to read more posts on this board before you start spouting racism.

Coach C.
01-06-2006, 02:36 PM
I'm not trying to place a race card here, but I'm just making an observation of some things I heard on the radio and tv. I just think everybody should be given a fair shake, and I dont think VY has, he probably should have won the heisman, I still hear today that black quaterbacks can't read defenses, all they can do is scramble etc and I even hear this in my workplace, this is my opionion and I have a right to express it. Every player should be examined fairly and not with bias.

LCOOL I agree with you. We will always and I mean always be looked at with a certain bias. Some we have brought on ourself and most that has been unfairly placed upon us. Has VY gotten his fair shake? Yes and No. He is a king in Austin and in the inner city of Houston, but he is also a football player that tends to let his ethnic trends supercede his overal impact. Cool I think you are right to a certain extent and most people on this board will never understand this fully, and that is seen by how many posts against you you have gotten, I did not attack you just talk to a fellow fan. Stay UP!!

HoustonFrog
01-06-2006, 02:37 PM
Carr didn't get sacked against the Niners either, so what is your point?

He hadn't completed many passes either so it wasn't like he was setting the world on fire when he got time. The weather excuse is bogus. He is 4 years in.

HoustonFrog
01-06-2006, 02:38 PM
if memory serves, Bledsoe got knocked out of a playoff game when Brady stepped in ... so I wouldn't exactly say that Brady turned things around ...

Brady actually stepped in earlier in the season and then Bledsoe had to take over in the AFC Championship game. Brady faired much better in the season than Bledsoe had and they debated giving Bledsoe the job back when he got healthy.

" In his second NFL season, and after throwing just three passes as a rookie in 2000, Brady posted a 12-3 record after supplanting the injured Bledsoe, who suffered internal chest injuries during the second game of the year. There has been much speculation that Belichick would prefer to go to camp with Brady as the starter, but the coach reiterated this week he has not looked ahead to all of the options."

bigTEXan8
01-06-2006, 02:42 PM
I'm not trying to place a race card here, but I'm just making an observation of some things I heard on the radio and tv. I just think everybody should be given a fair shake, and I dont think VY has, he probably should have won the heisman, I still hear today that black quaterbacks can't read defenses, all they can do is scramble etc and I even hear this in my workplace, this is my opionion and I have a right to express it. Every player should be examined fairly and not with bias.

Bull you are not playing the race card!! The second you say "race card," guess what!!!??? You are playing the race card!!!! This phrase should be done away with.

The biggest reason VY will likely not succeed is because of the type of offense he has been brought up in. That offense doesn't even have a chance in the NFL. I think that is one of the biggest reasons why Alex Smith has struggled so much. He was brought up the same way.

chuckm
01-06-2006, 02:48 PM
Brady actually stepped in earlier in the season and then Bledsoe had to take over in the AFC Championship game. Brady faired much better in the season than Bledsoe had and they debated giving Bledsoe the job back when he got healthy.


I looked it up and you are exactly right ... my memory isn't what it once was ... but I still disagree with the Bledsoe/Brady analogy ... now if you had of said Woodley/Marino ....

HoustonFrog
01-06-2006, 02:49 PM
I looked it up and you are exactly right ... my memory isn't what it once was ... but I still disagree with the Bledsoe/Brady analogy ... now if you had of said Woodley/Marino ....

Whew!Now you are getting me into my collecting football card days..lol

BREAZE
01-06-2006, 02:55 PM
Chris Mortenson just said on the Dan Patrick that there is "no way" the Texans take Young, he even said that Carr is the better QB and could probably beat Young in the 40.

Just for the record, I agree, all this talk about the next Charlie Ward/Michael Vick is starting to really wear on me.

Well thank God poise, proven leadership, and heart have nothing to do with the decision. Well this is now a no-brainer since the 6ft/3in Carr can outrun the 6ft/6in VY in the 40. Doug Flutie probably could too, but the decision should not even be debatable now...

Nighthawk
01-06-2006, 03:05 PM
The first I heard about VY's race being a factor was this post.

Then you have bad ears, bad eyes, and no imagination. Please take a card and take a seat.

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2006, 03:07 PM
Well thank God poise, proven leadership, and heart have nothing to do with the decision. Well this is now a no-brainer since the 6ft/3in Carr can outrun the 6ft/6in VY in the 40. Doug Flutie probably could too, but the decision should not even be debatable now...

Racism is still prevalent in our society, but to confuse stupidity and the prospect of anti-hype with racism should not be echoed. Mort is mouthing someone's agenda.

tulexan
01-06-2006, 03:09 PM
Charley Casserly is paying Mort to say all of this about Vince that is the only explanation.

SESupergenius
01-06-2006, 03:14 PM
I'm not sure on who the faster play is, But from what I've seen of Young, he has more elusiveness and running ability than Carr. Sure Carr can out sprint if you think, but would make the better moves to get 1st downs......at least in college that is.

Nighthawk
01-06-2006, 03:24 PM
The biggest reason VY will likely not succeed is because of the type of offense he has been brought up in. That offense doesn't even have a chance in the NFL. I think that is one of the biggest reasons why Alex Smith has struggled so much. He was brought up the same way.

Like much of the rest of this thread, these remarks are nonsense.

First, Mortensen:

PASSING: Carr is a better passer? Well, he's probably got a "bigger" arm, but he has no field vision, which VY seems to have plenty of; Carr's got a bad (sidearm) throwing motion that they weren't able to work out of him, and VY has a worse throwing motion, but he seems very accurate and he seems to flick the ball effortlessley, whereas Carr looks as if it is hard work throwing the ball. Carr does have a more traditional "look" to his passing, but he's less accurate and unable to hit a moving target with any regularity. The real difference is Carr's had four years in the NFL, four more years than VY, and he's not that much better now. Can you imagine what VY will be like after four years in the NFL? Really, in a way, VY is more like Favre in some ways.

SPEED: Carr is faster. Please. That's just plain silly. Carr is slower and less agile and less able to escape. Carr is much less elusive. VY is a real runner when he runs, whereas Carr is a lead-legged QB when he runs, much less athletic.

STRENGTH: VY passes with guys hanging around his waist. He's a lot stronger than Carr and will get even stronger in the NFL.

LEADERSHIP: This goes to VY without even a 2nd thought. He's a big strong guy with a lot of charisma who inspires confidence in all those around him and lifts their level of play. Carr is like a 90 lb weakling by comparison, he's a "stamp-your-feet" kind of kid who nobody on the team seems to think a lot about. Banks seems to get a lot more out of the team than Carr, as a matter of fact.

SYSTEM: Well, time will tell on this. Carr has 4 years in teh system and he's still stinking it up. It's hard to imagine VY being WORSE than Carr in the system we've run. As someone said of the SF game, Banks game in, rifled the ball downfield to different receivers and didn't take a sack. Carr would have spent much of the day on his back. Sooner or later management is going to run out of excuses for Carr's poor play, and then we'll start to get somewhere, maybe. Will VY translate into a more conventional NFL system? I don't know. I imagine you're going to have to tailor the system for him a little more than usual, but as I said above, he looks to me like a big, fast guy whose NFL future is going to be in the Favre, Steve McNair mold.

WILL WE TAKE HIM: I don't think management is smart enough to do that. When McNair decided to keep Casserly --in any capacity-- I wrote the deal off a little as trying too hard to be a conventional NFL program, some imaginary ideal of what the management is SUPPOSED to do. I remember reading "usually a GM gets two coaches" before he's fired, and I guess that's what McNair decided, never mind that this argument, this precedent, if it's true, makes no sense at all in terms of business or football, but it is easier to do, looks like a compromise (business guys love compromise), and doesn't risk so much in the press and in public opinion.

SO IT GOES.

flubber14
01-06-2006, 03:25 PM
The development of Carr is one reason why I want Cam Cameron, even over Kubiak. While Kubiak finally seems to have Plummer straightened out in Denver, Cameron has a tremendous track record with QBs. He was with Harbaugh in Michigan, helped launch Trent Green's career, and Gus Frerotte made the Pro Bowl with Cameron as his QB coach. Randle El was an All-American QB under him at Indiana and now Brees has made the Pro Bowl last year and is the alternate this year. I think he would do wonders with Carr. After watching the Chargers and Broncos, so much of Denver's success is because of a very good offensive line. San Diego has phenomenal skill but a very below average offensive line and I thought they did an excellent job scheming to get around their o-line deficiencies.

chuckm
01-06-2006, 03:33 PM
Really, in a way, VY is more like Favre in some ways.

alrighty

SESupergenius
01-06-2006, 04:22 PM
The last years in college.

David Carr: 343 att 532 comp 64.47 % 4830 yds 46 td 10 int
Vince Young: 212 att 325 comp 65.20 % 3036 yds 26 td 10 int

If you say that .73% means he's a more accurate passer then ok, technically yes, significantly, no. Carr threw for more TD's and had a lower interception ratio. Carr was responsible for more TD's for his team than Young was. What does all this mean? Nada. It's a whole different ball game in the pros, especially when you are on an expansion team or on a team that has a new coaching staff.

LCOOL
01-06-2006, 04:27 PM
Racism is still prevalent in our society, but to confuse stupidity and the prospect of anti-hype with racism should not be echoed. Mort is mouthing someone's agenda.
I agree and after reading the NFL insider today, I think MR Casserly paid Mort a lot of money, Mort said that his sources tell him that they would chose Leinhart over VY, so maybe the Texans will draft Leinhart

stevo3883
01-06-2006, 04:28 PM
The last years in college.

David Carr: 343 att 532 comp 64.47 % 4830 yds 46 td 10 int
Vince Young: 212 att 325 comp 65.20 % 3036 yds 26 td 10 int

If you say that .73% means he's a more accurate passer then ok, I technically yes, significantly, no. Carr threw for more TD's and had a lower interception ratio. Carr was responsible for more TD's for his team than Young was. What does all this mean? Nada. It's a whole different ball game in the pros, especially when you are on an expansion team or on a team that has a new coaching staff.

not to mention Carr played in the WAC and Young played the likes of Ohio State, OU, and USC.


Vince is the only played to have 3000 passing yards and 1000 rushing yards in a season. (no one even has 2500) he has set many NCAA records and UT records as well.



the most important thing to look at is this- Young led his team to an undefeated season as national champs beating what was considered the greatest team of all time almost single handedly.

Carr led his team to a loss in the silicon valley bowl

LCOOL
01-06-2006, 04:29 PM
not to mention Carr played in the WAC and Young played the likes of Ohio State, OU, and USC.


Vince is the only played to have 3000 passing yards and 1000 rushing yards in a season. (no one even has 2500) he has set many NCAA records and UT records as well.



the most important thing to look at is this- Young led his team to an undefeated season as national champs beating what was considered the greatest team of all time almost single handedly.

Carr led his team to a loss in the silicon valley bowl
Gus ferrote and Ricky Williams in 06!

dirty steve
01-06-2006, 04:36 PM
[QUOTE=Coach C.]LCOOL Mortensen may hate our people, but regardless he has to respect our abilities. QUOTE]

you guys need to get over yourself.