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HoustonFrog
01-06-2006, 09:34 AM
I'm sure many of you saw Vince on Leno last night. I did think it was telling that after Leno said that the Texans have the #1 pick VY said "That will play a major part in the decision." I know professional front offices should do what is right for the team but does that put the pressure on McNair now?Interesting.

Marcus
01-06-2006, 09:51 AM
"That will play a major part in the decision."

Well now, well now!

I think it would be in Vince's interest to find out exactly what McNair wants to do before he declares . . . even though they officially can't talk to each other.

If he decides to stay in school, then it's a safe bet that he found out that McNair has other plans.

HoustonFrog
01-06-2006, 09:53 AM
Well now, well now!

I think it would be in Vince's interest to find out exactly what McNair wants to do before he declares . . . even though they officially can't talk to each other.

If he decides to stay in school, then it's a safe bet that he found out that McNair has other plans.

I think so too. I think that was his push to be picked #1 by the hometown team.

Marcus
01-06-2006, 09:55 AM
I think so too. I think that was his push to be picked #1 by the hometown team.

And I'm betting McNair doesn't like being put on that spot one cotton-pickin bit!

HoustonFrog
01-06-2006, 10:12 AM
Out of respect to the moderators, I didn't want to start another thread but here is todays Chronicle debate. Justice said take Vince. Lopez says take Bush. Both are good columns

For Vince:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/3569201.html

For Bush:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/lopez/3569200.html

TheOgre
01-06-2006, 10:44 AM
I say we try to talk the Jets into trading up. Then we get some picks and whoever is left out of Bush, Young, Lienart, and Ferguson.

HJam72
01-06-2006, 10:47 AM
I say we try to talk the Jets into trading up. Then we get some picks and whoever is left out of Bush, Young, Lienart, and Ferguson.

Ferguson will be left--and that'll freaking work!!! :)

nunusguy
01-06-2006, 10:49 AM
I'm not a proponent of the Texans drafting Young, but I think he'd be well
advised to come out now to maximize the potential of both his financial security and career in the NFL: his stock can't go up too much more than right now, but downside could be steep with an injury in his senior year or
less than steller season. Reports are he discussed this subject post game with Leinert, who probably wasn't candid enough to tell him he screwed up by not going into the Draft last year when unlike this year he was very probable to be #1. For a lower profile but even better example, he could touch bases with Dave Ragone who was projected to be possible first round
if he came out early, but didn't and slipped to 3rd to become sideline clerk/
clip-board holder in NFL.

bigTEXan8
01-06-2006, 10:50 AM
I say we try to talk the Jets into trading up. Then we get some picks and whoever is left out of Bush, Young, Lienart, and Ferguson.
I agree with this. I think it's going to be better in the long run.

HoustonFrog
01-06-2006, 10:54 AM
I agree with this. I think it's going to be better in the long run.

I think it is a HUGE mistake to pass on one of the big 3. Not many drafts fall into place like this and the Texans need PLAYMAKERS. I know the reasons why people want Ferguson but considering there isn't really a franchise QB or RB on this team, I'd advice you try and take one.

bigTEXan8
01-06-2006, 10:55 AM
I'm not a proponent of the Texans drafting Young, but I think he'd be well
advised to come out now to maximize the potential of both his financial security and career in the NFL: his stock can't go up too much more than right now, but downside could be steep with an injury in his senior year or
less than steller season. Reports are he discussed this subject post game with Leinert, who probably wasn't candid enough to tell him he screwed up by not going into the Draft last year when unlike this year he was very probable to be #1. For a lower profile but even better example, he could touch bases with Dave Ragone who was projected to be possible first round
if he came out early, but didn't and slipped to 3rd to become sideline clerk/
clip-board holder in NFL.
Leinart didn't go pro because he didn't want to go pro yet. He wanted to finish college, something that was important to him. Currently, it wasn't about the money to him. He was having a good time going to school and hanging out with his friends.

Porky
01-06-2006, 10:56 AM
From the Justice column:

"He's not an athlete playing quarterback," Texas coach Mack Brown said. "He's a quarterback who happens to be a great athlete. He reads defenses as well as any quarterback in the country. You never hear about that part of his game."

Vinny and I were discussing this yesterday. A QB who can actually read defenses? Is there such a thing? We forgot. :yahoo:

HoustonFrog
01-06-2006, 11:00 AM
Leinart didn't go pro because he didn't want to go pro yet. He wanted to finish college, something that was important to him. Currently, it wasn't about the money to him. He was having a good time going to school and hanging out with his friends.

Actually besides all of that he had told people that he didn't think his arm strength was NFL material yet. Both ESPN and Kiper said it.

SheTexan
01-06-2006, 11:01 AM
Just curious. What makes all you guys think VY WANTS to play for Houston? I think he would rather be picked up by the Titans so he can learn the ropes under S. McNair. It's no secret he and McNair are "best friends." Why would he want to sit the bench and watch Carr progress, as he will with a new coach, and not get the opportunity to step in and produce like he will in Tenn. I bet this boy would much rather become a meatball!!:)

CenTexNative
01-06-2006, 11:02 AM
Out of respect to the moderators, I didn't want to start another thread but here is todays Chronicle debate. Justice said take Vince. Lopez says take Bush. Both are good columns

For Vince:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/3569201.html

For Bush:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/lopez/3569200.html

Two very good atricals I do believe. But I also still believe we need linemen for the offense and defense first. Again just my two bits

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2006, 11:03 AM
The zone read does not work in the NFL and is a large weapon in VY's arsenal. It will not work against an NFL defense. He does not line up under center and I have not seen a play action pass from him in the last three years. I still do not like the way he does not protect the ball when he is being wrapped up. I still do not like the way he tries to complete every pass rather than throwing it away. VY has progressed immensely and I believe he will come out, but I do not want to see him in a Texans uniform next year at #1.

HoustonFrog
01-06-2006, 11:04 AM
Just curious. What makes all you guys think VY WANTS to play for Houston? I think he would rather be picked up by the Titans so he can learn the ropes under S. McNair. It's no secret he and McNair are "best friends." Why would he want to sit the bench and watch Carr progress, as he will with a new coach, and not get the opportunity to step in and produce like he will in Tenn. I bet this boy would much rather become a meatball!!:)

Just that quote "That will play a major part in the decision" and the fact that it is his hometown team he can turnaround.

nunusguy
01-06-2006, 11:06 AM
Leinart didn't go pro because he didn't want to go pro yet. He wanted to finish college, something that was important to him. Currently, it wasn't about the money to him. He was having a good time going to school and hanging out with his friends.
I really don't mean to be a wise asX, but don't you realize how lame that argument is ? He's got the rest of his life to finish school. Personally, I didn't
get my baccalaureate until I was 30 and many, many people these days wait
much later in life. And hanging around to enjoy the social life of school and
deferring and thereby risking the loss of not just finacial security but financial wealth for a player and his family (and potential familty/children)
quickly becomes illogical when serious though process is applied.

bigTEXan8
01-06-2006, 11:11 AM
I really don't mean to be a wise asX, but don't you realize how lame that argument is ? He's got the rest of his life to finish school. Personally, I didn't
get my baccalaureate until I was 30 and many, many people these days wait
much later in life. And hanging around to enjoy the social life of school and
deferring and thereby risking the loss of not just finacial security but financial wealth for a player and his family (and potential familty/children)
quickly becomes illogical when serious though process is applied.
Well I guess not everyone in this world just thinks about money.

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2006, 11:12 AM
I find this as an interesting debate every year where people put their own past experiences and sometimes prejudices into their takes. No one knows as each person, their handlers and the teams are different characters every year. For all we know Leinart may have had no guarantee ala Carr that he would have been #1 last year. Moreover, he may have forecasted what was best for him from a work life balance standpoint by rounding out different skill sets. Until you have the ability to be a fly on the wall or in the prospects head you do not know what makes them or the prospective franchises tick.

Htown34s
01-06-2006, 11:22 AM
Just curious. What makes all you guys think VY WANTS to play for Houston?

If you listen to him talk for any amount of time, he always brings up Houston. He is the most Houston proud person I've seen. At the same time, if he does come out and we pass, I can see him trying to make us sorry for the next 10 years. That is something I just can not witness, especially if its in a Titan uniform!!

Listen, forget D'brick, he is just the best LT in the draft this year.

He is NOT a once in a lifetime talent like VY is.

Bush is awesome, but is he an every down back?

Do we want to have $40-$60 million tied up between two RB's?

How many productive RB's can be found in the later rounds? Quite a bit.

We draft VY because it may lead a legendary time in Houston. We are a new team, if we gamble and lose, so what?

Porky
01-06-2006, 11:26 AM
The zone read does not work in the NFL and is a large weapon in VY's arsenal. It will not work against an NFL defense. He does not line up under center and I have not seen a play action pass from him in the last three years. I still do not like the way he does not protect the ball when he is being wrapped up. I still do not like the way he tries to complete every pass rather than throwing it away. VY has progressed immensely and I believe he will come out, but I do not want to see him in a Texans uniform next year at #1.

While I don't disagree with any of these points, all of these are coachable. You don't think David Carr had issues coming out, or even Payton Manning? The point is you take the best raw product available, and then you mold him. If they deem the Young is the best talent you take him. If you deem it is Bush, you take him.

I would also like to add that Young has "It", whatever it means, he has it. The guy is a natural born winner and leader. This is the opposite of Carr who seems to have "Ti".

J-Man
01-06-2006, 11:30 AM
Just a quick comment here that the last line of the Lopez article sparked.

If we REALLY wanted to move in a different direction at QB and be competitive as soon as possible we would take Matt Leinart. VY is clearly a superior athlete...but by no means is he a superior QB. What Young can do in college is frankly amazing, but every single expert/analyst that I have seen on ESPN, NFL network or whatever outlet hands down say that Leinart is the better QB now and will be the better QB 10yrs from now...and has a much better chance for longevity in the league than Young.

The fact is he has freakish ability and dominiates the college game...that doesn't mean that he won't have some serious development to go thru at the pro level.

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2006, 11:33 AM
While I don't disagree with any of these points, all of these are coachable. You don't think David Carr had issues coming out, or even Payton Manning? The point is you take the best raw product available, and then you mold him. If they deem the Young is the best talent you take him. If you deem it is Bush, you take him.

I just do not see how in the Salary Cap era you take a QB with the #1, it hamstrings the franchise and does not yield Championships.

We have other glaring needs than QB and RB. Bush was the once in a lifetime player three days ago and now VY is. I do not get wrapped up in the hype as there will be another flavor next year. I get wrapped up in our needs and then look to fill those holes.

tulexan
01-06-2006, 11:34 AM
The tide is slowly starting to come back. Even the local guys (John and Lance) are admitting that they should draft Reggie because there are still too many questions about Vince.

Double Barrel
01-06-2006, 11:45 AM
For what it's worth, Anthony Muñoz (Hall of Fame linemen) said after the game that he'd chose Leinart over Young for a pure QB. Granted, he's a USC boy, but he said don't be surprised if Young ends up at another position in the NFL.

Interesting thoughts all the way around, though.

I tend to be a bit reserved and agree with Kaiser Toro's initial post. Young looks like a great prospect, and is the sexy pick after the Rose Bowl, but I've watched him all year and I'm just not as convinced about him as some of you.

I have no doubt he'll be a great NFL player, but I'm not on the bandwagon of believing drop-back QBs are a thing of the past (especially considering how many of them are leading teams in the NFL playoffs at the moment).

WWJD
01-06-2006, 11:49 AM
I think it bothered Vince that Reggie won the Heisman.

If he goes back to Texas he'll do so to try to win it and get another championship.

Strictly my opinion...but when I watched the Heisman Awards Vince was disappointed and it was obvious.

HoustonFrog
01-06-2006, 11:49 AM
The tide is slowly starting to come back. Even the local guys (John and Lance) are admitting that they should draft Reggie because there are still too many questions about Vince.

Well I think VY can be a great pro QB but it SHOULD be Bush. This draft, as is, sets up perfectly for the Texans. It is deep at O-line, you have a large amount of picks..4 in the top 66..and you have a large amount of top tier skill guys. They can take Bush and still get top/quality O-lineman in your next picks. Of course this all comes down to Charlie, which is scary..he might take a QB with the 2nd round pick..lol.

tulexan
01-06-2006, 11:51 AM
Apparently his mom really wants him to graduate from college.

CenTexNative
01-06-2006, 11:53 AM
You know the more and more I read on about Vince and bush. I am begning to like the idea of a Carr/Young senario more and more. Vince is an outstanding athlete that can learn to be a pocket qb and scramble only when he needs to. But only as long as the offensive line learns to block

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2006, 11:53 AM
Apparently his mom really wants him to graduate from college.

She is saying the right thing, which is important no matter what VY does.

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2006, 11:55 AM
You know the more and more I read on about Vince and bush. I am begning to like the idea of a Carr/Young senario more and more. Vince is an outstanding athlete that can learn to be a pocket qb and scramble only when he needs to. But only as long as the offensive line learns to block

That is the worst scenario. In the NFL there is a salary cap. Moreover, go reserach how many #1 QB's have won a Super Bowl in the Salary Cap era. We would have two. I am pro death penalty, but not for my team.

Vinny
01-06-2006, 11:57 AM
That is the worst scenario. In the NFL there is a salary cap. Moreover, go reserach how many #1 QB's have won a Super Bowl in the Salary Cap era. We would have two. I am pro death penalty, but not for my team.You are right...Carson Palmer obviously hurt the Bengals march to the playoffs by sitting out as a number one pick his rookie year.

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2006, 11:59 AM
You are right...Carson Palmer obviously hurt the Bengals march to the playoffs by sitting out as a number one pick his rookie year.

Not sure you understand my posts, that is unless you think Kitna was the number 1 pick in the draft.

Jack Bauer
01-06-2006, 12:06 PM
The tide is slowly starting to come back. Even the local guys (John and Lance) are admitting that they should draft Reggie because there are still too many questions about Vince.

That is where I am. I was soooo hyped after the game that I thought we HAD to select VY if he came out. Again, I had watched VY all year and this was the icing on the cake. But this one game did have a HUGE impact on my response. Now, I have settled back in to the thought that we should select Bush unless we get the other teams number 1 this year and next as well as a number 2 and a number 3 (this year or next year).

Porky
01-06-2006, 12:08 PM
What is Mack Brown going to say? Is he going to be candid about Vince's weakenesses, or is he going to pump his golden boy up as much as he can? I can see it now, Mack after the championship game: "Well, Vince is a good guy, but really, his arm just isn't that good." Wtf? Of course he is going to praise his man.

I think that Vince did do a good job reading USC's defenses. I also saw that he got a full four seconds to do so on virtually every snap.

Unbelieveable how one good game makes you a do-no-wrong who can't miss in the NFL and should be acquired at all costs.

I don't know about others, but I am not basing my choice on one game. That game was just the cherry on the hot fudge Sunday. Young proved in that game he is the best player in the country. What's wrong with wanting to draft the best player in the country? There are only so many games a year. EAch has it's own impact, but he always comes up biggest in the biggest situations. He took that team on his back and willed that team to a win. When was the last time Carr did that? I am okay with Bush too. He is an electrfying talent. But a QB has his hands on the ball every play, and given the choice between an electrying talent at RB or QB, I will take the QB every time.

As to the not taking one #1 overall, who would you like to draft #1, a plumber? That's the pick we have. I would rather take one overwhleming talent, then 3 guys who plug holes, but that's just my preference.

TXurias
01-06-2006, 12:08 PM
That is the worst scenario. In the NFL there is a salary cap. Moreover, go reserach how many #1 QB's have won a Super Bowl in the Salary Cap era. We would have two. I am pro death penalty, but not for my team.
I agree...two top qb's is a death sentence. It can divide the team and fans. Take the safe route...trade pick with N/O.....they take VY we get Bush and a late round pick.

GP
01-06-2006, 12:17 PM
So that's where this is at?

Three camps for us to fall into: 1. Bush ; 2. Young ; 3. Trade the pick and still get the 'Brick.

Count me as a No. 3 poster: Trade the pick and still get the 'Brick.

I want to see what Carr and the other guys can do with a monstrous o lineman to help out his blindside.

New coaching, and a REAL upgrade at OL is what I want to see.

Bush and Young can go get banged up on some other weak team (Saints, Titans, Jets, etc.).

Not much use in us pulling a Detroit and continously drafting some huge playmaker when we can't even get the ball into their hands.

By the way, the guy scoring all the TDs and getting the tough yards when needed (except for the last 4th down) is a guy named LenDale White who has been massively under appreciated and disrespected throughout ALL of this whole thing. I'd rather take him than Bush.

Trade the pick and still get the 'Brick.

Vinny
01-06-2006, 12:23 PM
The zone read does not work in the NFL and is a large weapon in VY's arsenal. It will not work against an NFL defense. He does not line up under center and I have not seen a play action pass from him in the last three years. I still do not like the way he does not protect the ball when he is being wrapped up. I still do not like the way he tries to complete every pass rather than throwing it away. VY has progressed immensely and I believe he will come out, but I do not want to see him in a Texans uniform next year at #1.Steve McNair had a stick and dirt offense in College...if you had dirt and a stick you had the Alcorn St playbook. He managed to overcome it, and Young has sweet feet, so I don't think he will fall over himself learning a fake handoff (play action) or a 7-step drop.

HoustonFrog
01-06-2006, 12:27 PM
So that's where this is at?

Three camps for us to fall into: 1. Bush ; 2. Young ; 3. Trade the pick and still get the 'Brick.

Count me as a No. 3 poster: Trade the pick and still get the 'Brick.

I want to see what Carr and the other guys can do with a monstrous o lineman to help out his blindside.

New coaching, and a REAL upgrade at OL is what I want to see.

Bush and Young can go get banged up on some other weak team (Saints, Titans, Jets, etc.).

Not much use in us pulling a Detroit and continously drafting some huge playmaker when we can't even get the ball into their hands.

By the way, the guy scoring all the TDs and getting the tough yards when needed (except for the last 4th down) is a guy named LenDale White who has been massively under appreciated and disrespected throughout ALL of this whole thing. I'd rather take him than Bush.

Trade the pick and still get the 'Brick.

You are right and I fall into #1. I'm not sure I get the O-lineman theory. With this draft it makes no sense. D'Brick might be a great lineman but we DONT have playmakers. You said we do. Andre is. Carr and DD aren't. There is a reason why our offense is so bad. We don't have the talent. Almost all Super Bowl teams have a franchise QB or RB and we have neither. Let me give you guys an example. Lets say there is a turnaround next year and, like this year we have 4-5 games that come down to one play or the last minute. Those games mean a wildcard birth. Do you want a guy who can break a kickoff return, run, screen pass for a TD and a win or a lineman who help us get DD and extra 10 yards and we lose again?The draft is deep at O-line. We have 7 other picks. 4 in the top 66. The Patrots line has a 2nd rounder and the rest are free agents and below the 3rd round. The Broncos have a 1st round, 20th pick and 2 4ths and a 7th. The draft IS NOT over aftter #1. You can have the best of both worlds. The Texans have that chance to get both this year and that isn't including free agency.

TXurias
01-06-2006, 12:28 PM
So that's where this is at?

Three camps for us to fall into: 1. Bush ; 2. Young ; 3. Trade the pick and still get the 'Brick.

Count me as a No. 3 poster: Trade the pick and still get the 'Brick.

I want to see what Carr and the other guys can do with a monstrous o lineman to help out his blindside.

New coaching, and a REAL upgrade at OL is what I want to see.

Bush and Young can go get banged up on some other weak team (Saints, Titans, Jets, etc.).

Not much use in us pulling a Detroit and continously drafting some huge playmaker when we can't even get the ball into their hands.

By the way, the guy scoring all the TDs and getting the tough yards when needed (except for the last 4th down) is a guy named LenDale White who has been massively under appreciated and disrespected throughout ALL of this whole thing. I'd rather take him than Bush.

Trade the pick and still get the 'Brick.
I can see where you r coming from with draft D'Brick or whatever but when was the last time an OLinemen took a team to the playoffs. It takes a few good drafts to accomplish that. We can still take Bush and a get a good OL in the 2nd/3rd round.

Blake
01-06-2006, 12:29 PM
Im in Camp #1. Take Bush, and a LT/OG in round 2.

Yeah, we have 20 mill into Davis. But he cant stay healthy. Split carries, and we can have both healthy for playoffs, (if we make it)

LT Pitts / Colledge Round 2.
LG Brown - I like him.
C Hodgdon
RG Wiegart - He needs a backup. Round 2.
RT Wade / Colledge Round 2.

Skill players.

Carr
Johnson/Mathis
Bush/Davis
TE:???????????????? WE HAVE NO TE?????

El Tejano
01-06-2006, 12:29 PM
Lopez made the argue that we would be starting all over again. No we wouldn't. We have a running game so a better line and a QB that is willing to come and warm the seat will do for us. You let Young sit til mid season or the following season and there you go. The thing is that we will get more for trading Carr. So that shouldn't hurt as at all. Again I think either way you go we will win.

TXurias
01-06-2006, 12:31 PM
Im in Camp #1. Take Bush, and a LT/OG in round 2.

Yeah, we have 20 mill into Davis. But he cant stay healthy. Split carries, and we can have both healthy for playoffs, (if we make it)

LT Pitts / Colledge Round 2.
LG Brown - I like him.
C Hodgdon
RG Wiegart - He needs a backup. Round 2.
RT Wade / Colledge Round 2.

Skill players.

Carr
Johnson/Mathis
Bush/Davis
TE:???????????????? WE HAVE NO TE?????
Any good FA TE's this year....what about draft prospects....will there be any in the 4th round? Anyone heard from Jopru?

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2006, 12:32 PM
Steve McNair had a stick and dirt offense in College...if you had dirt and a stick you had the Alcorn St playbook. He managed to overcome it, and Young has sweet feet, so I don't think he will fall over himself learning a fake handoff (play action) or a 7-step drop.

I have no doubt he will. I am about championships and McNair did not win one even though he overcame the stick and dirt playbook, which by the way may have been better than a Greg Davis playbook. Any comments on the Zone read?

Blake
01-06-2006, 12:32 PM
Any good FA TE's this year....what about draft prospects....will there be any in the 4th round? Anyone heard from Jopru?

Joppru is a gamble again... 4th round TE? Maybe Byrd. Thomas?

Texas
01-06-2006, 12:33 PM
Greenbay may take VY...Favre is old and they need a new franchise quarterback and with no star WR's that may just be there route.

Coach C.
01-06-2006, 12:34 PM
Am I lost has VY thrown for 3500+ yards and had an upper 80 passer rating in this league. Maybe I missed it. Maybe I was did not watch VY get plastered and still fight for his team. Maybe I have never seen VY hold the ball for 6+ seconds before throwing a whiffle ball up to a 6'4" receiver. Or maybe I am tired of going over paperwork and reading questionable post about our new saviour on the boards. At least this time our savior's picture is going to be closer to the color of our actual Savior.

TXurias
01-06-2006, 12:34 PM
Joppru is a gamble again... 4th round TE? Maybe Byrd. Thomas?
So his hamstring isn't healed or what?

GP
01-06-2006, 12:42 PM
"...Do you want a guy who can break a kickoff return, run, screen pass for a TD and a win or a lineman who help us get DD and extra 10 yards and we lose again?..." -- HoustonFrog

-------------------

I want a true star on the o line, kinda' like that Orlando Pace guy we tried to land during the offseason.

I want a true starter on the line, especially on the left side so Carr won't do the happy pants dance all season long.

Grabbing stud players at WR or RB or QB, ala Detroit Lions, each year just produces the same results: No o line to stop a defensive attack upon the QB. And you shut down the Qb, you shut down the WR and RB because they can't get the ball to do their thang.

Great teams have great o lines. Period.

You snag stars at WR/RB/Qb each draft, and you cripple your team's overall chances at success. More talent will want to come and play WR/RB/QB for us if they know we have a real oline who can help them do their thang.

Otherwise, we might as well just slap a Lions logo on the side of our helmet and just move the team to Detroit and split the rent with them on Ford Field.

Their draft philosoohy is EXACTLY like the one you are proposing, IMHO.

Malloy
01-06-2006, 12:42 PM
Just curious. What makes all you guys think VY WANTS to play for Houston? I think he would rather be picked up by the Titans so he can learn the ropes under S. McNair. It's no secret he and McNair are "best friends." Why would he want to sit the bench and watch Carr progress, as he will with a new coach, and not get the opportunity to step in and produce like he will in Tenn. I bet this boy would much rather become a meatball!!:)

I agree, the statement on Leno (as written in the initial post) could be read the opposite way too :)

GP
01-06-2006, 12:45 PM
And just for the record, on the TE situation.....

I could care less.

I have seen this team continue to hold onto Joppru.

I have seen this team stack four or even five TEs on the roster at diffrent times, and it doesn't make a hill of beans.

We throw ONE pass per game to the TE..and he either bobbles it and drops it, or he catches it and he never sees the ball thrown his way again the rest of the game.

This team doesn't know how to use a TE even if Cooley, Gates, Whitten, Heap, and Gonzales all came to play for us for free.

THAT has been my biggest gripe of this team since its inception. And I'm just at a point where I don't even "care" about the TE anymore.

HoustonFrog
01-06-2006, 12:49 PM
"...Do you want a guy who can break a kickoff return, run, screen pass for a TD and a win or a lineman who help us get DD and extra 10 yards and we lose again?..." -- HoustonFrog

-------------------

I want a true star on the o line, kinda' like that Orlando Pace guy we tried to land during the offseason.

I want a true starter on the line, especially on the left side so Carr won't do the happy pants dance all season long.

Grabbing stud players at WR or RB or QB, ala Detroit Lions, each year just produces the same results: No o line to stop a defensive attack upon the QB. And you shut down the Qb, you shut down the WR and RB because they can't get the ball to do their thang.

Great teams have great o lines. Period.

You snag stars at WR/RB/Qb each draft, and you cripple your team's overall chances at success. More talent will want to come and play WR/RB/QB for us if they know we have a real oline who can help them do their thang.

Otherwise, we might as well just slap a Lions logo on the side of our helmet and just move the team to Detroit and split the rent with them on Ford Field.

Their draft philosoohy is EXACTLY like the one you are proposing, IMHO.

I don't see your connection at all. The Lions took those players with picks 5-10 and they took 3 WRs. The Texans took a stud DB, traded down for a DT, took a WR 3 years ago. Please show me the similarities. It isn't anyones fault but Charlies that he took RBs and QBs in the 3rd and 4th round. Hopefully not many, but how many times will you have the #1 pick and have 3 guys sitting there like that?Look at last years draft. Terrible. The teams I pointed out did it the right way. You can get all the things you want established and still get the playmaker. Your answer didn't even address the question of who woul;d win those games for you. I'm getting confused as to why people think it is less risky to take an O-lineman at #3 then a RB at #1. Injuries happen and no O-lineman is an automatic stud. Larry Allen, Rd 2.

bigTEXan8
01-06-2006, 12:52 PM
I still say VY stays in college. I say he wants to win the Heisman. As far as I'm concerned, he got screwed. He'll stay at Texas for one year to win another championship and the Heisman.

GP
01-06-2006, 12:56 PM
My point is that we have drafted first round talent with Carr, AJ, Dunta, and Travis Johnson. Correct? Was Babin a late first rounder, or late second rounder? Can't remember.

Anyway, my point is that it's about time w edrafted a for-sure thing on the o line...and 'Brick is as about as a for-sure thing as you get. It's ONE draft pick on the o line in the first round.

I am personally not sold on both Bush AND Young as being for-sure NFL talent because you see LOTS of college guys light up the college game and yet fizz out once they hit the NFL. You will also find stud talent at QB/WR/RB in the later rounds, as well, and that's a list too long to go into.

Get a guy for the left side (an "anchor" as they call them) and build around with true free agent talent: Dump Gaffney and Bradford, bring on Reggie Wayne for example. Lots of things you can do when you spend less on O line in free agency--thus drafting good o line--and put those free agency dollars toward a proven producer like Randel El, Reggie Wayne, etc.--rather than spending that dough on what I feel are not-so-sure talent in Bush and Young.

That's just my personal philosophy.

For example: AJ is considered to be a STUD WR. But how well did he do this year behind the shakiest o line in the game? Exactly. Not even a hybrid of Montana-Brady-Staubach could get the ball to AJ this past year.

We have the talent, the nucleus, but we need an o line anchor.

TXurias
01-06-2006, 12:56 PM
And just for the record, on the TE situation.....

I could care less.

I have seen this team continue to hold onto Joppru.

I have seen this team stack four or even five TEs on the roster at diffrent times, and it doesn't make a hill of beans.

We throw ONE pass per game to the TE..and he either bobbles it and drops it, or he catches it and he never sees the ball thrown his way again the rest of the game.

This team doesn't know how to use a TE even if Cooley, Gates, Whitten, Heap, and Gonzales all came to play for us for free.

THAT has been my biggest gripe of this team since its inception. And I'm just at a point where I don't even "care" about the TE anymore.
Great point....when Carr first came into the league he had his security blanket TE Miller. They let him go this year and Carr suffered from it. Carr needs big pass catching TE along with Bush and a decent OL. Remember guys sometimes a great OL coach can make all the difference in the world.

HoustonFrog
01-06-2006, 12:58 PM
My point is that we have drafted first round talent with Carr, AJ, Dunta, and Travis Johnson. Correct? Was Babin a late first rounder, or late second rounder? Can't remember.

Anyway, m point is that it's about time w edrafted a for-sure thing on the o line...and 'Brick is as about as a for-sure thing as you get. It's ONE draft pick on the o line in the first round.

I am personally not sold on both Bush AND Young as being for-sure NFL talent because you see LOTS of college guys light up the college game and yet fizz out once they hit the NFL. You will also find stud talent at QB/WR/RB in the later rounds, as well, and that's a list too long to go into.

Get a guy for the left side (an "anchor" as they call them) and build around with true free agent talent: Dump Gaffney and Bradford, bring on Reggie Wayne for example. Lots of things you can do when you spend less on O line in free agency--thus drafting good o line--and put those free agency dollars toward a proven producer like Randel El, Reggie Wayne, etc.--rather than spending that dough on what I feel are not-so-sure talent in Bush and Young.

That's just my personal philosophy.

I respect that. I just don't see Bush and Young as your run of the mill, every draft talent. I think you almost have to take them. Good debate though. Whatever they do I think they can improve quickly with this draft.

CenTexNative
01-06-2006, 01:28 PM
That is the worst scenario. In the NFL there is a salary cap. Moreover, go reserach how many #1 QB's have won a Super Bowl in the Salary Cap era. We would have two. I am pro death penalty, but not for my team.
I know about the salary cap. But don't you think that David Carr and Vince Young could get it done IF they had a line that can block. I seriously doubt any rookie qb can just jump in and make an immediate impact. Vince Young is not exception to the rule. But I do believe with his abilities and David Carrs' guidence that the Texans can get the program moving in the right direction

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2006, 01:35 PM
I know about the salary cap. But don't you think that David Carr and Vince Young could get it done IF they had a line that can block. I seriously doubt any rookie qb can just jump in and make an immediate impact. Vince Young is not exception to the rule. But I do believe with his abilities and David Carrs' guidence that the Texans can get the program moving in the right direction

We would have at least 13 million invested in our QB position next year, not to mention not drafting our actual needs, not to mention hurting us in free agency against the cap, not to mention the certain QB controversy, not to mention the undue pressure on a new HC, not to mention neither Qb has shown anything in the NFL, not to mention the economic ruin of this franchise if neither make it which is very plausible.

GP
01-06-2006, 01:42 PM
I have ESPN Insider, and Chris Mortensen had samplings of unnamed NFL personnel who commented on Wed. night's performances:

One person said that Young lit up a bad defense, the same USC defense that got 40-something points put on them by Fresno State late this season. In the NFL, Young and other guys that just take off with the ball on their own are not going to stay healthy for very long.

Most of the people Mortensen spoke with are not that impressed with leinart nor Young. They don't feel either them are true NFL stud QBs right now. With lots of work, it's possible, but it's no sure-thing right off the bat.

One person still believes that Bush is the Texans guy at No. 1. Bush still did some things Wed. night that made great impressions.

------

My personal opinion, and I'll stick with it all the way, is that Young-Bush-Leinart are not nearly as "for-sure" NFL talent as they are being hyped, but since they are getting that hype...we need to ride that tidal wave all the way to the bank by trading the No. 1 and going to No. 4 or No. 5 and picking up 'Brick.

Call it conservative, call it "ugly" and un-inspiring, but I'm tired of seeing this team not take the star-quality o linemen in the draft. It's been four years now, and we have YET to take an o lineman in the first round. Last year we all talked about how the 2006 draft will be a "the draft of the o linemen," and we all collectively dreamed about it...saying that we couldn't wait to pick up some great o line talent. Well the time has come, but people are willing to sell the goose that lays golden eggs for some magic beans.

My two cents, though.

SheTexan
01-06-2006, 01:45 PM
I agree, the statement on Leno (as written in the initial post) could be read the opposite way too :)

That's the way I take it also. MAYBE, if he could be assured he could play for the Titans, not the Texans, he would declare. A couple years under S. McNair and the boy would be ready to go. Two years under DC and he will still be sitting the bench, unless the Texans decide to trade DC, which ain't gonna happen!! Probably not gonna matter much anyway, what ANYONE thinks. He will do what his mama wants him to do, and that is go back for his senior year. He's got college ball by the tail! A chance for the Heisman (sp), back to back championships, playing for Mack Brown another year, and pleasing his Mom. He'll stay.

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2006, 01:45 PM
I have ESPN Insider, and Chris Mortensen had samplings of unnamed NFL personnel who commented on Wed. night's performances:

One person said that Young lit up a bad defense, the same USC defense that got 40-something points put on them by Fresno State late this season. In the NFL, Young and other guys that just take off with the ball on their own are not going to stay healthy for very long.

Most of the people Mortensen spoke with are not that impressed with leinart nor Young. They don't feel either them are true NFL stud QBs right now. With lots of work, it's possible, but it's no sure-thing right off the bat.

One person still believes that Bush is the Texans guy at No. 1. Bush still did some things Wed. night that made great impressions.

------

My personal opinion, and I'll stick with it all the way, is that Young-Bush-Leinart are not nearly as "for-sure" NFL talent as they are being hyped, but since they are getting that hype...we need to ride that tidal wave all the way to the bank by trading the No. 1 and going to No. 4 or No. 5 and picking up 'Brick.

Call it conservative, call it "ugly" and un-inspiring, but I'm tired of seeing this team not take the star-quality o linemen in the draft. It's been four years now, and we have YET to take an o lineman in the first round. Last year we all talked about how the 2006 draft will be a "the draft of the o linemen," and we all collectively dreamed about it...saying that we couldn't wait to pick up some great o line talent. Well the time has come, but people are willing to sell the goose that lays golden eggs for some magic beans.

My two cents, though.

I agree with you.

If VY gets dinged then you have to ding Bush against the defenses he played against. We need to concentrate on our needs and not the hype. Hopefully our front office is not lost on that notion.

bigTEXan8
01-06-2006, 01:47 PM
I agree with you.

If VY gets dinged then you have to ding Bush against the defenses he played against. We need to concentrate on our needs and not the hype. Hopefully our front office is not lost on that notion.
I concur with both you and gpshafer.

swisher
01-06-2006, 02:05 PM
Apparently his mom really wants him to graduate from college.

Remember, this is his fourth year at Texas. He was redshirted his freshman year. I don't think he's far away from graduation.

GP
01-06-2006, 02:19 PM
good point.

someone pull up his transcript and let's see what hours he still needs for his degree (just kidding, although someone might actually be able to do it in this day and age).

You know, there is this thing called "distance learning" that is kinda' growing by leaps and bounds. You CAN earna degree away from a campus these days.

But he might not face such an extraordinary game like he did a few nights ago, either. I'd go pro. $$$$$$$$$$$$$

Texans Horror
01-06-2006, 04:34 PM
Stay the course.

Of course, this is assuming the new O-line coach doesn't say to Casserly, "I like what I've got. I don't see what the hell the Texans were doing wasting this talent." If Reeves and the coaches decide that we have a poorly coached, yet talented line, then they might not see a reason to draft a Ferguson/Eslinger/whoever. At which point they may want to take the opportunity to risk an "upgrade."