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Nighthawk
01-06-2006, 12:51 AM
Carr and Casserly are parts of the problem. They were participating members in the destruction of this team.

Carr doesn’t have enough gravitas (a fancy word for testicles) to carry this team, to butt heads with the coaches, to really drive this club. He’s a sweet little boy who played a pretty good QB in college, small college, that is. In the NFL he just looks lost.

Casserly, who McNair should never have allowed to stay past Capers, is invested in Carr and in the status quo and in proving, by hook or crook, that whoever he spent McNair’s money on is who the money should have been spent on. That is, Casserly is committed to saving his so called “reputation” and thus his livelihood. It makes sense and you would be, too. On the other hand, McNair and the fans of the Texans have to pay for all his mistakes, and any new mistakes he’s about to make, too.

The best possible move now is trade Carr if you can, draft Young, bring in a good veteran to run the team for a year or so (McNair, Kitna, Brad Johnson, you choose). If there’s any truth at all to the Miami rumor, we should jump on it tonight.

bigcarlos
01-06-2006, 12:53 AM
I hope that rumor is true

Big B Texan Fan
01-06-2006, 12:56 AM
What Miami rumor?????????????idonno:

Big B Texan Fan
01-06-2006, 12:58 AM
What Miami rumor?????????????idonno:
Nevermind, found out.

texan279
01-06-2006, 12:58 AM
OK, I somewhat agree with the take on Cass, but the Carr you describe is not the Carr I have watched for the past 4 years. The Carr I've seen has had his skills and confidence stolen from him by the coaching and our front office who have failed to address the offensive line problem. Now, I am not saying Carr is the best QB of all time or that he has done nothing that deserves blame in the last 4 years, but I cannot blame him at all for the "destruction" of this team.

bubbajaxonbrown
01-06-2006, 01:05 AM
OK, I somewhat agree with the take on Cass, but the Carr you describe is not the Carr I have watched for the past 4 years. The Carr I've seen has had his skills and confidence stolen from him by the coaching and our front office who have failed to address the offensive line problem. Now, I am not saying Carr is the best QB of all time or that he has done nothing that deserves blame in the last 4 years, but I cannot blame him at all for the "destruction" of this team.

That's why its best to part ways with him now. Give him a chance in a new place and give the team a chance with a new QB.

I firmly believe CC is taking the team down with him in order to not admit failure. He has been perceived as "Genius" on this same forum all summer for his moves and drafts and now he has been graded by the ultimate NFL GPA...WINS! He's here to stay for another year (at least) so let's hope he makes the best decisions from here on out.

Also note...

This year McNair and Reeves will have a lot of influence on decisions CC may have had full power over in the past. Decisions will be thought out in a 3-party capacity this off-season.

texan279
01-06-2006, 01:10 AM
That's why its best to part ways with him now. Give him a chance in a new place and give the team a chance with a new QB.

I firmly believe CC is taking the team down with him in order to not admit failure. He has been perceived as "Genius" on this same forum all summer for his moves and drafts and now he has been graded by the ultimate NFL GPA...WINS! He's here to stay for another year (at least) so let's hope he makes the best decisions from here on out.

Also note...

This year McNair and Reeves will have a lot of influence on decisions CC may have had full power over in the past. Decisions will be thought out in a 3-party capacity this off-season.

Why not give Carr a chance here with another coach and an upgraded offensive line (if the front office upgrades it)?

bubbajaxonbrown
01-06-2006, 01:18 AM
Why not give Carr a chance here with another coach and an upgraded offensive line (if the front office upgrades it)?

My whole point is before Reeves showed up CC wouldn't upgrade the OL b/c he thinks he picked the right guys the first time around. I think he feels Carr defines his competence.

Carr is tough as nails. I'll defend him for that all day long. But it's time to let him try behind a good OL somewhere else b/c no matter who we bring in our OL will bite this next season again b/c they will have to "gel" or that'll be the excuse next October if the line is getting our QB killed. I'd like to give him a chance somewhere else and let Young come in, take his bumps and bruises and losses for one season (much like Aikman, Brees, and Elway had to) and grow up or sit him behind a competent vet like Kitna or Flutie or (if GOD would bless us) Farve to learn for a season or 2. Either would be best for the Texans AND Carr at this point.

Let's not get the kid killed!!!

Now this year I actually have confidence in their decision since they will have 3 execs with input on what to do with that #1 pick.

Nighthawk
01-06-2006, 01:30 AM
OK, I somewhat agree with the take on Cass, but the Carr you describe is not the Carr I have watched for the past 4 years. The Carr I've seen has had his skills and confidence stolen from him by the coaching and our front office who have failed to address the offensive line problem. Now, I am not saying Carr is the best QB of all time or that he has done nothing that deserves blame in the last 4 years, but I cannot blame him at all for the "destruction" of this team.

From a hard nosed football or business point if view, it does not matter HOW Carr became part of the problem, it only matters that now he IS part of the problem.

He's a nice guy (maybe), and tough as nails (well, sorta), and has a lot of arm strength, but by now that's about it as far as his credentials go. He's had four years to demonstrate his worth, his greatness, his qualities, and whaat he's actually done is show us he MIGHT be a pretty good QB _IF_ he has a whole lot of help. He needs more help than he gives.

Contrast THAT with Young's Rose Bowl performance and you've got the whole argument summed up in a nutshell. And for those who yell "you're naming Young on the basis of ONE GAME," well, no, I'm not. Not even close. It's three years of games, three years of growth, and three years of development as a person and a leader.

hot pickle
01-06-2006, 01:39 AM
the only thing i worry about with carr is that the texans might have ruined him already, its gonna be a tough decission for the texans

texan279
01-06-2006, 01:41 AM
From a hard nosed football or business point if view, it does not matter HOW Carr became part of the problem, it only matters that now he IS part of the problem.

He's a nice guy (maybe), and tough as nails (well, sorta), and has a lot of arm strength, but by now that's about it as far as his credentials go. He's had four years to demonstrate his worth, his greatness, his qualities, and whaat he's actually done is show us he MIGHT be a pretty good QB _IF_ he has a whole lot of help. He needs more help than he gives.

Contrast THAT with Young's Rose Bowl performance and you've got the whole argument summed up in a nutshell. And for those who yell "you're naming Young on the basis of ONE GAME," well, no, I'm not. Not even close. It's three years of games, three years of growth, and three years of development as a person and a leader.

Sure Carr needs more help, he needs at least a freakin' average NFL offensive line! And as far as Vince, sure he has me re considering wanting to trade down if he declares, but look at the line he works behind. Vince could have stood back there and read War and Peace last night behind that line. You bring in Vince or any other QB for that matter and put him behind this O line and we are looking at the same situation in another 4 years.

texan279
01-06-2006, 01:45 AM
the only thing i worry about with carr is that the texans might have ruined him already, its gonna be a tough decission for the texans

Casserly has already said Carr is staying and that we are not drafting Leinhart, and I would not think that would be any kind of smoke screen or draft trickery considering it would benefit us more to just say "I don't know" or "We'll wait and see".

LongBignasty1
01-06-2006, 01:49 AM
And if you flush Vince out of the pocket you'll pay!

ThaShark316
01-06-2006, 01:57 AM
Ok, I don't know the Miami rumor...someone school me.

texan279
01-06-2006, 01:58 AM
Ok, I don't know the Miami rumor...someone school me.

Rumor going around that if we hire Linehan, we might trade Carr to Miami for Ricky Williams and a draft pick...

ThaShark316
01-06-2006, 02:03 AM
Yeah, I just saw it on the draft board...damn, that would crazy.

Grid
01-06-2006, 02:06 AM
If Carr turns it around with a new coach.. and a better Oline.. I am going to ride all yalls asses about this until he retires :)..

I should write down names.

texan279
01-06-2006, 02:09 AM
If Carr turns it around with a new coach.. and a better Oline.. I am going to ride all yalls asses about this until he retires :)..

I should write down names.

Should we start a new club? :redtowel:

LongBignasty1
01-06-2006, 02:12 AM
Grid you can put me in list but i honestly don't think Carr will ever be a Superstar QB(multiple years off kicking @$$ and taking names)

bubbajaxonbrown
01-06-2006, 02:15 AM
If Carr turns it around with a new coach.. and a better Oline.. I am going to ride all yalls asses about this until he retires :)..

I should write down names.

Don't take it personal Grid. This is going to be a discussion for those of us that won't take the "Stop talking about Carr b/c I said so!" or "Carr's not going anywhere b/c I heard CC say so!" responses and shut up. We'll discuss openly on this forum until he produces.

Dude, we all wish Carr was an All-pro by now but he's not and noone knows for sure if it is the OL. Not even Carr knows for sure. We're just considering other options like everyone should. Unless you are Superbowl Champs, your team needs changes. At 2-14, we need the most.

texan279
01-06-2006, 02:17 AM
Don't take it personal Grid. This is going to be a discussion for those of us that won't take the "Stop talking about Carr b/c I said so!" or "Carr's not going anywhere b/c I heard CC say so!" responses and shut up. We'll discuss openly on this forum until he produces.

Dude, we all wish Carr was an All-pro by now but he's not and noone knows for sure if it is the OL. Not even Carr knows for sure. We're just considering other options like everyone should. Unless you are Superbowl Champs, your team needs changes. At 2-14, we need the most.

Why just change the QB, why not the entire team?

bubbajaxonbrown
01-06-2006, 02:18 AM
Why just change the QB, why not the entire team?

I'm open to possibilities. As long as we keep AJ and Dunta we can CUT THEM ALL!!!

Grid
01-06-2006, 02:19 AM
your free to discuss what ya want and all.. but damn guys.. Carr still plays for this team and yall are acting like you wouldnt piss on his head if his eyebrows were on fire. Try and show a little class huh? There is no unspoken rule that says you cant be courteous while criticizing a player.

(BTW this isnt directed at anyone, or everyone, in this thread. Im just going by some of the posts ive seen on the board)

bubbajaxonbrown
01-06-2006, 02:21 AM
your free to discuss what ya want and all.. but damn guys.. Carr still plays for this team and yall are acting like you wouldnt piss on his head if his eyebrows were on fire. Try and show a little class huh? There is no unspoken rule that says you cant be courteous while criticizing a player.

(BTW this isnt directed at anyone, or everyone, in this thread. Im just going by some of the posts ive seen on the board)

Agreed.

Besides, I'm more anti-Casserly than anything. I just use Carr as a means to correct an ongoing problem of lack of team management. He better make a serious play for Bentley if he wants any support in the future.

texan279
01-06-2006, 02:27 AM
your free to discuss what ya want and all.. but damn guys.. Carr still plays for this team and yall are acting like you wouldnt piss on his head if his eyebrows were on fire. Try and show a little class huh? There is no unspoken rule that says you cant be courteous while criticizing a player.

(BTW this isnt directed at anyone, or everyone, in this thread. Im just going by some of the posts ive seen on the board)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v154/texan279/lmao.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v154/texan279/lmao.gifhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v154/texan279/lmao.gif

Grid
01-06-2006, 02:44 AM
whats great is I follow that quote with the statement "try and show a little class huh?"

im a hypocrite :)

Pscooter21
01-06-2006, 03:06 AM
If Carr turns it around with a new coach.. and a better Oline.. I am going to ride all yalls asses about this until he retires :)..

I should write down names.


You can also put me down for I feel Carr won't become an all pro here now that some of the fans have started to lose the love for him. My dream was always that Vince coukd play for us.Then as I watched this year unfold I began to see an outside shot if we kept playing poorly. Now after him solodifying his legacy at UT it looks like my dream could happen if CC doesn't burn it like he did with DJ last year. David needs a change to salvage his carrer. They did enough to destroy it be merciful and let him go.

Later.................

pscooter21...................

Malloy
01-06-2006, 03:13 AM
If Carr turns it around with a new coach.. and a better Oline.. I am going to ride all yalls asses about this until he retires :)..

I should write down names.

Plz do :)

Grid
01-06-2006, 03:15 AM
burn it like he did with DJ last year

you can always tell when a tsip is making the post.

If you want to look back on last years draft and talk about what we did wrong.. our big mistakes was not continuing to trade down and getting Luis Castillo and Odell Thurman. I dont think Derrick Johnson even got mentioned on sportscenter last season :P

And Travis Johnson has only been here one season.. and it was one season under a coaching staff that just got fired for being inept.

And honestly.. the fans need to get over the "losing the love" for Carr thing. This is quickly starting to resemble to dark days of the Oilers.. crappy fans with no class and no loyalty towards their team.

EVEN OUTSIDERS.. even division RIVALS will tell you that Carr has talent and his main problem has been a lack of good coaching, and the lack of an offensive line. But not Houston fans.... we're apparently as blind as we are ignorant. Its hard being associated with some of the people here.

texan279
01-06-2006, 03:23 AM
you can always tell when a tsip is making the post.

If you want to look back on last years draft and talk about what we did wrong.. our big mistakes was not continuing to trade down and getting Luis Castillo and Odell Thurman. I dont think Derrick Johnson even got mentioned on sportscenter last season :P

And Travis Johnson has only been here one season.. and it was one season under a coaching staff that just got fired for being inept.

And honestly.. the fans need to get over the "losing the love" for Carr thing. This is quickly starting to resemble to dark days of the Oilers.. crappy fans with no class and no loyalty towards their team.

EVEN OUTSIDERS.. even division RIVALS will tell you that Carr has talent and his main problem has been a lack of good coaching, and the lack of an offensive line. But not Houston fans.... we're apparently as blind as we are ignorant. Its hard being associated with some of the people here.

Every post you make it's like you'r ereading my mind...I can't believe DJ was just brought up again after all the hype last season, being called "the only sure thing in the draft", and having such a mediocre season.

Erratic Assassin
01-06-2006, 03:29 AM
The Carr I've seen has had his skills and confidence stolen from him by the coaching and our front office who have failed to address the offensive line problem.

Bingo. Casserly owes Carr a big apology for building this team backwards. You must have your o-line in place first BEFORE drafting your QB. It would be a big mistake to draft Vincent Young because we'd ruin him too.

Look at the difference between Rothlesberger's experience and Carr's. The Steelers are a solid organization, we are not and that falls squarely on Casserly's shoulders.

Erratic Assassin
01-06-2006, 03:41 AM
Why not give Carr a chance here with another coach and an upgraded offensive line (if the front office upgrades it)?

Casserly's idea of an upgrade is Victor Riley and Todd Wade.

You're not going to get Walter Jones, Jonathan Ogden, or Willie Roaf off the scrap heap. You must give up a high first round pick.

texan279
01-06-2006, 03:42 AM
Casserly's idea of an upgrade is Victor Riley and Todd Wade.

You're not going to get Walter Jones, Jonathan Ogden, or Willie Roaf off the scrap heap. You must give up a high first round pick.

Which is what I am leaning towards doing. Stud LT's are rarely found in free agency or later in the draft.

Grid
01-06-2006, 03:45 AM
With the depth at OT in this draft, we could get a quality tackle prospect in the second round. we dont NEED an LT, Pitts has done well.

And with Dan Reeves consulting.. and a new head coach.. I expect that Casserly will not have quite so much control over what we do this offseason.

The line WILL be improved.. especially if we hire Kubiak and he brings hte broncos OL coach to town.

HJam72
01-06-2006, 08:09 AM
Carr and Casserly are parts of the problem. They were participating members in the destruction of this team.

Carr doesn’t have enough gravitas (a fancy word for testicles) to carry this team, to butt heads with the coaches, to really drive this club. He’s a sweet little boy who played a pretty good QB in college, small college, that is. In the NFL he just looks lost.

Casserly, who McNair should never have allowed to stay past Capers, is invested in Carr and in the status quo and in proving, by hook or crook, that whoever he spent McNair’s money on is who the money should have been spent on. That is, Casserly is committed to saving his so called “reputation” and thus his livelihood. It makes sense and you would be, too. On the other hand, McNair and the fans of the Texans have to pay for all his mistakes, and any new mistakes he’s about to make, too.

The best possible move now is trade Carr if you can, draft Young, bring in a good veteran to run the team for a year or so (McNair, Kitna, Brad Johnson, you choose). If there’s any truth at all to the Miami rumor, we should jump on it tonight.

I don't think it's fair at all to expect a QB, especially a young one, to butt heads with his coaches. That fact that he never did is probably something we should respect and not put him down for. You might be right about Casserly though and I could live with taking Young and trading Carr because Young has impressed me, not because Carr is so bad.

HoustonFrog
01-06-2006, 08:21 AM
If Carr turns it around with a new coach.. and a better Oline.. I am going to ride all yalls asses about this until he retires :)..

I should write down names.

You can put me high on the list and I'll eat crow. I just don't think it will happen. There are alot more things to being QB than having a strong arm and surviving sacks. Carr has not grown, on his own, in 4 years. Forget coaching or what you think about the O-line. The guy hasn't taken steps himself and that is more bothersome to me. He still stares down receivers, a rookie mistake, and it is blatant. When that guy isn't open he holds the ball instead of just chunking it out of bounds. I know sometimes he has no time, but MANY times he does have time and just doesn't make the right decision. I think this goes straight to the locker room talk that he doesn't stay after practice and that he doesn't watch film after practice. He sure makes alot of HEB and hair commercials though.

I won't start on Casserly again. I'm still trying to figure out how he is still here.:brickwall

Htown34s
01-06-2006, 11:22 AM
Which is what I am leaning towards doing. Stud LT's are rarely found in free agency or later in the draft.

But you can usually find one all throughout the first round, which we'll have every year. Ferguson isn't a top 3 pick.

tulexan
01-06-2006, 11:38 AM
You can't really critcize him for not yelling at his coaches and his teammates. Some quarterbacks like to yell at their teammates, some don't. Dan Marino was notorious for yelling at everyone, but he also has the reputation of being a huge a-hole. Joe Montana on the other hand was calm and collected. Every player is different.

Wharton
01-06-2006, 01:36 PM
Joe Montana on the other hand was calm and collected. Every player is different.

Montana was a natural born leader. Carr couldn't lead a heard of cattle!

tulexan
01-06-2006, 01:38 PM
That's not the point. The poster I was replying to was criticizing Carr for not getting in the faces of the coaches and the line when they weren't performing.

Runner
01-06-2006, 01:42 PM
That's not the point. The poster I was replying to was criticizing Carr for not getting in the faces of the coaches and the line when they weren't performing.

Getting in the faces of our recent coaching staff was akin to career suicide. The players couldn't even question some coaches, much less "get in their face".

In my opinion.

Hervoyel
01-06-2006, 02:24 PM
Carr and Casserly are parts of the problem. They were participating members in the destruction of this team.

Carr doesn’t have enough gravitas (a fancy word for testicles) to carry this team, to butt heads with the coaches, to really drive this club. He’s a sweet little boy who played a pretty good QB in college, small college, that is. In the NFL he just looks lost.

Casserly, who McNair should never have allowed to stay past Capers, is invested in Carr and in the status quo and in proving, by hook or crook, that whoever he spent McNair’s money on is who the money should have been spent on. That is, Casserly is committed to saving his so called “reputation” and thus his livelihood. It makes sense and you would be, too. On the other hand, McNair and the fans of the Texans have to pay for all his mistakes, and any new mistakes he’s about to make, too.

The best possible move now is trade Carr if you can, draft Young, bring in a good veteran to run the team for a year or so (McNair, Kitna, Brad Johnson, you choose). If there’s any truth at all to the Miami rumor, we should jump on it tonight.

Ridiculous.

The best possible move is for the Texans to either select Reggie Bush or trade down. The name "Vince Young" doesn't even enter into any scenario for the Texans 2006 draft that contains the words "best possible move".

Vince Young needs to stay put until 2007. Put some more polish on his game, win the Heisman (probably), and gain some maturity. The Texans need to see David Carr in an offense that isn't being drawn up by Chris Palmer or Joe Pendry. If things don't work out then Young is an option in 2007.

Hervoyel
01-06-2006, 02:32 PM
Getting in the faces of our recent coaching staff was akin to career suicide. The players couldn't even question some coaches, much less "get in their face".

In my opinion.

Well, when Carr "nutted up" to his coaches he got told by Gary Walker to "Take his coaching" and when he jumped his lines collective butts he was roundly criticized in here for not being professional or keeping himself under control.

The regime was poison IMO to players growing or moving forward in any way. Nobody got better while the Texans were led by Capers and his staff.

Complaints about Casserly are IMO a joke. He's not perfect but nobody is. He did his job. An independent consultant (Dan Reeves) stated that and Casserly was retained. Unless someone in here can make a case for being a better judge of talent than Dan Reeves or can go back in time, make different decisions, and use the results to prove that Casserly was incompetent I'm going to have to file "Fire Casserly!" posts and opinions in the bucket I keep right next to the one marked "Shinola".

Kaiser Toro
01-06-2006, 02:34 PM
Well, when Carr "nutted up" to his coaches he got told by Gary Walker to "Take his coaching" and when he jumped his lines collective butts he was roundly criticized in here for not being professional or keeping himself under control.

The regime was poison IMO to players growing or moving forward in any way. Nobody got better while the Texans were led by Capers and his staff.

Complaints about Casserly are IMO a joke. He's not perfect but nobody is. He did his job. An independent consultant (Dan Reeves) stated that and Casserly was retained. Unless someone in here can make a case for being a better judge of talent than Dan Reeves or can go back in time, make different decisions, and use the results to prove that Casserly was incompetent I'm going to have to file "Fire Casserly!" posts and opinions in the bucket I keep right next to the one marked "Shinola".

Well said.

SESupergenius
01-06-2006, 02:51 PM
Well, when Carr "nutted up" to his coaches he got told by Gary Walker to "Take his coaching" and when he jumped his lines collective butts he was roundly criticized in here for not being professional or keeping himself under control.
If Carr had been pissed for the coaching and Walker told him to take the coaching, then after the season Walker basically poos all over the coaching, then David was right for not taking the coaching in the first place. So basically Walker was opening his trap at Carr because Carr knew the coaching sucked, as did everyone else around here and Carr was the good little soldier. Carr is then handed the reigns on this team and guides them to their best offensive productions of the year.

Oh, and trust me, Casserly is far from being given a free pass, he's hired a consultant to look over his job as well and McNair is was forced to bring in other people to evalutate the draft as well.

Wharton
01-07-2006, 12:15 AM
That's not the point. The poster I was replying to was criticizing Carr for not getting in the faces of the coaches and the line when they weren't performing.

Actually, that is exactly the point. Both Marino and Montana are leaders and would get in someone’s face if they thought it necessary. They had different styles of doing it, but they did do it. When Walker chewed DC's butt out, was at the latter part of a game when DC had stunk the joint up and should have been listening to his coaches. As far as the line goes, DC can chew their butts out any time he want to as far as I am concerned.

From what I understand Unitus had a nasty habit of kicking his linemen in the shins when they missed a block. Considering that none of the linemen kicked back, I would say Johnny U. was a leader. Again, DC was not, is not, and will not be a leader.

texan279
01-07-2006, 12:19 AM
Actually, that is exactly the point. Both Marino and Montana are leaders and would get in someone’s face if they thought it necessary. They had different styles of doing it, but they did do it. When Walker chewed DC's butt out, was at the latter part of a game when DC had stunk the joint up and should have been listening to his coaches. As far as the line goes, DC can chew their butts out any time he want to as far as I am concerned.

From what I understand Unitus had a nasty habit of kicking his linemen in the shins when they missed a block. Considering that none of the linemen kicked back, I would say Johnny U. was a leader. Again, DC was not, is not, and will not be a leader.

If Carr did that, none of our linemen would be able to walk by the time week 3 rolled around. :tv:

rdbrem
01-07-2006, 12:28 AM
We can replace Carr with a better QB. But to do that, it will cost something else. You can't get Bush, and a better QB, and a better O-line. So we gotta figure out what will improve the team the most.

I figure we either need to get a QB who can dodge bullets for an hour, or we need to improve the O-line. An improved O-line will buy time for Carr to throw, and make blocks for Bush or whoever gets back there.

Last year, we improved dramatically in kick returns, because we brought in Swinton, Mathis, Starling, etc. But in making that decision, we neglected the O-line. We didn't improve where we were hurting the most, and it killed us.

Do you really want to do that again?

And don't expect anybody to want to join this team right now, without a lot of green in front of them.

Nighthawk
01-07-2006, 12:48 AM
If Carr had been pissed for the coaching and Walker told him to take the coaching, then after the season Walker basically poos all over the coaching, then David was right for not taking the coaching in the first place. So basically Walker was opening his trap at Carr because Carr knew the coaching sucked, as did everyone else around here and Carr was the good little soldier. Carr is then handed the reigns on this team and guides them to their best offensive productions of the year.

Oh, and trust me, Casserly is far from being given a free pass, he's hired a consultant to look over his job as well and McNair is was forced to bring in other people to evalutate the draft as well.

You guys slay me. You have no freaking idea what went on in the exchange. You have some newspaper reports and you think they're gold. It's silly. Carr has never demonstrated any kind of leadership on this team. He's been a whiny kid who is prone to pouting, getting sacked, throwing passes in the dirt, and pretending to take his medicine as long as everyone was working as hard as possible to assure him that he was not to blame for his Shinola performance on the field.

In my view Banks could have won more games this year than Carr did, easily. Carr is a liability, plain and simple, for all the reasons that have been endlessly repeated on this and other boards. I won't relist them. Maybe if he gets a fresh start somewhere he can turn it around and become Trent Dilfer, if he's diligent and lucky.

Nighthawk
01-07-2006, 12:57 AM
We can replace Carr with a better QB. But to do that, it will cost something else. You can't get Bush, and a better QB, and a better O-line. So we gotta figure out what will improve the team the most.

I figure we either need to get a QB who can dodge bullets for an hour, or we need to improve the O-line. An improved O-line will buy time for Carr to throw, and make blocks for Bush or whoever gets back there.

Last year, we improved dramatically in kick returns, because we brought in Swinton, Mathis, Starling, etc. But in making that decision, we neglected the O-line. We didn't improve where we were hurting the most, and it killed us.

Do you really want to do that again?

And don't expect anybody to want to join this team right now, without a lot of green in front of them.

With a trade for player or picks we can (a) replace Carr with a better QB, (b) build up the O Line, and (c) bolster our running back situation.

But I will admit that if we CANNOT trade Carr, well, we can only do 2 of the three things you cite, and in that case we ought to (a) replace Carr and (b) work on the offensive line.

texan279
01-07-2006, 01:00 AM
With a trade for player or picks we can (a) replace Carr with a better QB, (b) build up the O Line, and (c) bolster our running back situation.

But I will admit that if we CANNOT trade Carr, well, we can only do 2 of the three things you cite, and in that case we ought to (a) replace Carr and (b) work on the offensive line.

Trade Carr? Why would we sign Carr to an extension just to trade him?

Hervoyel
01-07-2006, 06:56 PM
You guys slay me. You have no freaking idea what went on in the exchange. You have some newspaper reports and you think they're gold. It's silly. Carr has never demonstrated any kind of leadership on this team. He's been a whiny kid who is prone to pouting, getting sacked, throwing passes in the dirt, and pretending to take his medicine as long as everyone was working as hard as possible to assure him that he was not to blame for his Shinola performance on the field.

In my view Banks could have won more games this year than Carr did, easily. Carr is a liability, plain and simple, for all the reasons that have been endlessly repeated on this and other boards. I won't relist them. Maybe if he gets a fresh start somewhere he can turn it around and become Trent Dilfer, if he's diligent and lucky.


Just about everything you've said in this thread is based on the same kind of information. You call Carr a bunch of names but you don't know anymore about what he's thought of in the locker room than anyone else in here.

At least the conclusions I pull from those same newspaper reports have some possibility of being true. If your description of David Carr is what you've concluded from four years of watching football and reading newspaper reports about the Texans I'd say you have as much chance of knowing what's going on with the Texans QB situation as you do of finding a talking mole on your body that cures cancer and sings Menudo songs.

Tulip
01-07-2006, 07:01 PM
Herv - love the avatar!

tulexan
01-07-2006, 07:04 PM
When Walker chewed DC's butt out, was at the latter part of a game when DC had stunk the joint up and should have been listening to his coaches.


Walker chewed DC's butt out after Corey Bradford dropped a game winning catch that hit him right in the hands.

Nighthawk
01-08-2006, 12:58 AM
You call Carr a bunch of names but you don't know anymore about what he's thought of in the locker room than anyone else in here.

I didn't call Carr a single name.

I said (a) he's prone to pouting. I've seen this on the sidelines dozens of times since he's been a Texan.

I said (b) he's prone to getting sacked. Many folks here and elsewhere have recognized that Carr's huge sack totals are _in some measure_ his own responsibility.

I said (c) he's prone to throwing passes in the dirt. He is obviously inaccurate, doesn't throw accurately to moving targets, and throws in the dirt often when he has the slightest pressure (to be completely fair, I watch less now than I used to; for the first couple of years you would have thought there were receivers down there in the dirt, so often did Carr throw there).

I said (d) he has not demonstrated leadership. This is my sense of things by observing the team, the guys on the field around him, the figure that he cuts with his performance. The few times when alternative QBs (Banks/Ragone) have been in the game the team seems to heat up, play harder. Maybe this is my imagination, but I'm not the only one here or in the media who has noticed it.

I said (e) he really takes no blame, even when he disingenuously takes blame. This is my opinion of his public statements about the team and its predicament, including its losses over the last 4 years.

Carr's been a just barely adequate starting QB for an expansion franchise, though I honestly think we would have been better off over the last four years with practically any journeyman veteran.

Finally, part of the QB job is leadership, and thus a disproportionate percentage of the responsibility for the success or failure of a team falls to the QB. It should and the QB should have to shoulder that weight, take the benefits, pay the price for the failures.

Carr should be traded now.

Wharton
01-08-2006, 10:30 AM
Walker chewed DC's butt out after Corey Bradford dropped a game winning catch that hit him right in the hands.

At the end of lack luster performance by DC in a game that we lost.

texan279
01-08-2006, 12:02 PM
At the end of lack luster performance by DC in a game that we lost.

Carr was 22/30 for 219 yards, 1 TD, and 0 INT in that game, hardly a lackluster performance...

Hervoyel
01-08-2006, 02:17 PM
I didn't call Carr a single name.

You said "He's been a whiny kid" which is in no way different from calling him "whiny kid". It's also basicaly without any basis in truth. I've been watching him play for four years and be beaten half to death and not once heard the man whine about anything. You said he was prone to pouting which is in no way different from calling him a crybaby. You said he pretends to take his medicine which is exactly like calling him a liar. Describing a behaviour instead of just tossing out the name is the same thing. If I said "Nighthawk says one thing and does another" that would be no different from calling you a liar.

I said (a) he's prone to pouting. I've seen this on the sidelines dozens of times since he's been a Texan.

So you have the power to look at a mans facial expression and tell exactly what he's thinking. You know that he's pouting because of the face he's making at a given point in time? I'm calling bull**** on that.

I said (b) he's prone to getting sacked. Many folks here and elsewhere have recognized that Carr's huge sack totals are _in some measure_ his own responsibility.

Blinding flash of the obvious. Everyone here knows that Carr has been sacked to pieces the last four years. Nobody here (with a clue) believes that his sack problems are solely on the offensive line.

I said (c) he's prone to throwing passes in the dirt. He is obviously inaccurate, doesn't throw accurately to moving targets, and throws in the dirt often when he has the slightest pressure (to be completely fair, I watch less now than I used to; for the first couple of years you would have thought there were receivers down there in the dirt, so often did Carr throw there).

Carr has thrown some passes in the dirt. I'd stop far short of saying he's prone to it or has some kind of predisposition to do that. I've watched a lot of football in my time and David Carr doesn't throw the ball in the dirt any more than any other QB I've ever watched play. Basically I'm saying that my observations directly contradict yours.

I said (d) he has not demonstrated leadership. This is my sense of things by observing the team, the guys on the field around him, the figure that he cuts with his performance. The few times when alternative QBs (Banks/Ragone) have been in the game the team seems to heat up, play harder. Maybe this is my imagination, but I'm not the only one here or in the media who has noticed it.

Again I've seen the man demonstrate leadership. I completely disagree with you on that. I've seen him stand there and urge the coaches to go for it and I've seen them tuck their tail between their legs and punt the ball away or kick the safe FG. I completely deny that David Carr lacks leadership ability and believe that he's been placed in a position where he literally cannot win for trying. The mans development as an NFL QB has been brought to a complete halt and he continues to try to win and to pick himself back up. THAT is leadership. It was considered leadership when Warren Moon did it before he ever made it to a Pro Bowl and it was considered leadership when Dan Pastorini did it in the late 70's wearing a flak jacket to protect his ribs.

Put the man in an offense that gives him a chance to succeed and see what happens. If he fails then fine, point conceeded. Right now he's being killed by a pack of pathetic fans who are lay the entire organizations faults at his feet.

I said (e) he really takes no blame, even when he disingenuously takes blame. This is my opinion of his public statements about the team and its predicament, including its losses over the last 4 years.

Ludicrous. You're talking about a team that's four years old. In 2002 nobody took any blame and nor were they asked to. In 2003 everyone was happy with Carr's progression and again nobody took any blame. 36 sacks man. the Texans allowed 36 sacks. Did Carr suddenly stop causing sacks? The fans clearly understood that they'd seen improvement and nobody held the rash of defensive injuries against this team. In 2004 we again saw statistical improvement in every single catagory except for sacks. You blame them on the man getting sacked and I blame them on the system that man was playing in. In 2005 the wheels came off of everything. Offense, Defense, you name it. At no point in this season did I see David Carr try to shift blame from himself to anyone else.

Nighthawk I don't even know what you're looking at.

Carr's been a just barely adequate starting QB for an expansion franchise, though I honestly think we would have been better off over the last four years with practically any journeyman veteran.

Finally, part of the QB job is leadership, and thus a disproportionate percentage of the responsibility for the success or failure of a team falls to the QB. It should and the QB should have to shoulder that weight, take the benefits, pay the price for the failures.

Carr should be traded now.


Prior to this season Carr's progress was equal to or ahead of the progress of a number of QB's who have gone on to very good careers in the NFL. Yes we should have started a journeyman in 2002 as well as 2003 but it's too late to go back and change that now. Carr has been getting it done.

You want him gone because you're an impatient fan who's got a crush on a college QB who just won a big game. You want him gone because your team hasn't won enough in the four years it has existed and you want someone else to blame besides the men who've already taken the fall (and deservedly so). You complain about how Carr has failed to "burn it up" in our system for the past four years but you fail to take into account the system he's been running. If you stuck John Elway on a team running the option would you gripe because he didn't have the numbers? If you put Steve Young on a team where the coaching staff routinely handed momentum back to their opponents once they got up by 7 or 10 points would you complain that he didn't really put it on anybody?

The most satisfying thing about this offseason is that none of you will get the change you're demanding. The Texans will not draft Vince Young and they will not trade Carr. He will get a chance to prove that the problem went out the door with our coaching staff and I'll get the chance to rub your nose in it when you clamber back onto the bandwagon.

edo783
01-08-2006, 02:43 PM
You said "He's been a whiny kid" which is in no way different from calling him "whiny kid". It's also basicaly without any basis in truth. I've been watching him play for four years and be beaten half to death and not once heard the man whine about anything. You said he was prone to pouting which is in no way different from calling him a crybaby. You said he pretends to take his medicine which is exactly like calling him a liar. Describing a behaviour instead of just tossing out the name is the same thing. If I said "Nighthawk says one thing and does another" that would be no different from calling you a liar.



So you have the power to look at a mans facial expression and tell exactly what he's thinking. You know that he's pouting because of the face he's making at a given point in time? I'm calling bull**** on that.



Blinding flash of the obvious. Everyone here knows that Carr has been sacked to pieces the last four years. Nobody here (with a clue) believes that his sack problems are solely on the offensive line.



Carr has thrown some passes in the dirt. I'd stop far short of saying he's prone to it or has some kind of predisposition to do that. I've watched a lot of football in my time and David Carr doesn't throw the ball in the dirt any more than any other QB I've ever watched play. Basically I'm saying that my observations directly contradict yours.



Again I've seen the man demonstrate leadership. I completely disagree with you on that. I've seen him stand there and urge the coaches to go for it and I've seen them tuck their tail between their legs and punt the ball away or kick the safe FG. I completely deny that David Carr lacks leadership ability and believe that he's been placed in a position where he literally cannot win for trying. The mans development as an NFL QB has been brought to a complete halt and he continues to try to win and to pick himself back up. THAT is leadership. It was considered leadership when Warren Moon did it before he ever made it to a Pro Bowl and it was considered leadership when Dan Pastorini did it in the late 70's wearing a flak jacket to protect his ribs.

Put the man in an offense that gives him a chance to succeed and see what happens. If he fails then fine, point conceeded. Right now he's being killed by a pack of pathetic fans who are lay the entire organizations faults at his feet.



Ludicrous. You're talking about a team that's four years old. In 2002 nobody took any blame and nor were they asked to. In 2003 everyone was happy with Carr's progression and again nobody took any blame. 36 sacks man. the Texans allowed 36 sacks. Did Carr suddenly stop causing sacks? The fans clearly understood that they'd seen improvement and nobody held the rash of defensive injuries against this team. In 2004 we again saw statistical improvement in every single catagory except for sacks. You blame them on the man getting sacked and I blame them on the system that man was playing in. In 2005 the wheels came off of everything. Offense, Defense, you name it. At no point in this season did I see David Carr try to shift blame from himself to anyone else.

Nighthawk I don't even know what you're looking at.




Prior to this season Carr's progress was equal to or ahead of the progress of a number of QB's who have gone on to very good careers in the NFL. Yes we should have started a journeyman in 2002 as well as 2003 but it's too late to go back and change that now. Carr has been getting it done.

You want him gone because you're an impatient fan who's got a crush on a college QB who just won a big game. You want him gone because your team hasn't won enough in the four years it has existed and you want someone else to blame besides the men who've already taken the fall (and deservedly so). You complain about how Carr has failed to "burn it up" in our system for the past four years but you fail to take into account the system he's been running. If you stuck John Elway on a team running the option would you gripe because he didn't have the numbers? If you put Steve Young on a team where the coaching staff routinely handed momentum back to their opponents once they got up by 7 or 10 points would you complain that he didn't really put it on anybody?

The most satisfying thing about this offseason is that none of you will get the change you're demanding. The Texans will not draft Vince Young and they will not trade Carr. He will get a chance to prove that the problem went out the door with our coaching staff and I'll get the chance to rub your nose in it when you clamber back onto the bandwagon.


Good post Herv.

HoustonFrog
01-08-2006, 02:51 PM
Hervoyel, I have nothing to say except I love your avatar. That rap on SNL is saved on my system and solid gold..lol

Wharton
01-08-2006, 04:16 PM
Carr was 22/30 for 219 yards, 1 TD, and 0 INT in that game, hardly a lackluster performance...

ok, I'll bump it up to average.

Its still one of his best performances of the year, and at best its average!

texan279
01-08-2006, 04:35 PM
ok, I'll bump it up to average.

Its still one of his best performances of the year, and at best its average!

Yeah, it's nothing for a QB to go out in a game and have a rating of 104.7, pretty average to me...:rolleyes:

Hervoyel
01-08-2006, 05:05 PM
ok, I'll bump it up to average.

Its still one of his best performances of the year, and at best its average!


Saying that is like signing your name to the bottom of a sign that reads "I don't know what I'm looking at" and then hanging it around your neck. I can't believe you said that.