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View Full Version : Who Needs a Better O-Line When You have VY?


bdiddy
01-05-2006, 10:55 AM
Am I a Homer?

Vince Young could help solve our offensive line woes in a hurry. Defenses will have to implore Michael Vick treatment which will immediately slow down the pass rush. Additionally, once the DEs get up field on VY there is no hope of holding him to less than 5 yards on a run. If we trade Carr for a couple of picks we could address multiple needs including the offensive line in the middle rounds.

Just a thought, a bit crazy and possibly premature, but something to consider.

SESupergenius
01-05-2006, 11:19 AM
If I was the owner of the Texans I had a chance to trade Carr to pick up a boatload of picks AND get Young (if my scouts thing he can be a successful QB in the NFL and not just a scrambler), then I'd have to seriously consider this from a business perspective. After watching the last half of the season and all the empty seats I would have to look at all angles to try and bring them back. Firing the coaching staff probably cures that, but you have a huge Texas Longhorn fanbase that overlaps the Texans fanbase, that alone would probably bring in some more PSLs. But looking at the long term would I be jumping the gun on VY for a quick cure in the fans eyes and have a QB problem down the road.

I am not totally convined that VY is an NFL QB, I never thought much of any of the so called "athletic" QB's. He to my knowledge the fist of this prototype to win something this big on a national scale. But until one of these types of QB's wins in the NFL I'd have to play it a little conservative.

bdiddy
01-05-2006, 11:24 AM
SEsupergenius here is link regarding Kubiak as a playcaller.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/nfl/article/0,2777,DRMN_23918_4364718,00.html

see middle of the page.

Never mind, wrong link - see this instead.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_3372579

SESupergenius
01-05-2006, 11:35 AM
SEsupergenius here is link regarding Kubiak as a playcaller.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/nfl/article/0,2777,DRMN_23918_4364718,00.html

see middle of the page.

Never mind, wrong link - see this instead.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_3372579
Thank you, that is the kind of stuff we need around here, actual factual presentation. Good Job. I was convinced 2 years ago that Carr needs a west coast offense, If Kubiak or Saunders is hired then than ensure it.

profan
01-05-2006, 11:46 AM
I am not totally convined that VY is an NFL QB, I never thought much of any of the so called "athletic" QB's. He to my knowledge the fist of this prototype to win something this big on a national scale. But until one of these types of QB's wins in the NFL I'd have to play it a little conservative.

Ronnie Lot, Marcus Allen, Anthony Munoz, along with others think VY is ready for the NFL after seeing him play. When NFL players of this caliber make this statement about an opposing qb, convinces me that he will be a great NFL qb. The guy has been a winner at every level he has played and handles pressure better than anyone i have seen.

Texans Horror
01-05-2006, 12:02 PM
Ronnie Lot, Marcus Allen, Anthony Munoz, along with others think VY is ready for the NFL after seeing him play. When NFL players of this caliber make this statement about an opposing qb, convinces me that he will be a great NFL qb. The guy has been a winner at every level he has played and handles pressure better than anyone i have seen.

Honestly, their opinion matters little to me. They are great players, but that does not necessarily mean they are great at judging talent. I would be curious to know if the Texans scouts think that VY is ready to go pro since they have experience in this area.

bdiddy
01-05-2006, 12:03 PM
Honestly, their opinion matters little to me. They are great players, but that does not necessarily mean they are great at judging talent. I would be curious to know if the Texans scouts think that VY is ready to go pro since they have experience in this area.

I agree with your assessment regarding former players, however, lets not but too much stock in the Texans scouts need we forget some of their past bonehead moves.

Coach C.
01-05-2006, 12:07 PM
If I could get Anthony Munoz and Ronnie Lott to come coach here at the Texans it would be a great and wonderful thing. I do agree that it is their opinion, but they do know talent. Many scouts already felt like Young was ready for the pros. He is talented bottomline, and I hate to say that about any UT player.

Bubbajwp
01-05-2006, 12:08 PM
Am I a Homer?

Vince Young could help solve our offensive line woes in a hurry. Defenses will have to implore Michael Vick treatment which will immediately slow down the pass rush. Additionally, once the DEs get up field on VY there is no hope of holding him to less than 5 yards on a run. If we trade Carr for a couple of picks we could address multiple needs including the offensive line in the middle rounds.

Just a thought, a bit crazy and possibly premature, but something to consider.
VY already has a great oline. We have never seen him play behind a bad one so who knows

bdiddy
01-05-2006, 12:13 PM
I am not sure if I am completely sold, but Vince Young did this against USC. This is not a NFL like defense but it is the closest thing we can see in the college game. Will Vince be able to run like he did last night? No, but he will be able to run with success. I am hearing John Granado on 610 stating that VY will not run the zone-option read. Why the hell not? Defenses are faster in the NFL, imparticular DEs (key to defending this play), but Vince runs this play better than anyone I have EVER seen.

If I can get a 2nd and 4/5th rounder or a 3rd and 4th rounder for Carr I have to think about trading him. This would enable the Texans to get VY and an additional starter in the draft.

My biggest concern is that Kubiak would be opposed to coming to the Texans because his offense requires a more traditional QB.

Coach C.
01-05-2006, 12:17 PM
I would think Kubiak would not mind VY, but you are correct he would rather have a talent like Carr to build around. Carr can run and throw with anybody(QB) in the league and I suspect VY will be able to run with anybody, but he is not yet prepared to throw against NFL defenses. I would suspect if VY came out he would have similar stats to Carr with less passing stats and more rushing stats. It has already been reported that Carr will be resigned so an 5.5-8M cap hit will likely see VY heading somewhere else if he comes out.

tulexan
01-05-2006, 12:18 PM
I think the closest thing to a NFL defense in college was LSU's defense two years ago.

Honoring Earl 34
01-05-2006, 12:18 PM
:redtowel: I'm not sure I'd put to much stock in the Texans scouts either . I'm not sure about Vince in some areas but what I do know is the bigger the stage the better he gets .

John Elway used to be to me what Carr is to some of these guys . I thought no matter what Elway was coming through at the end , that he would find away . He is one of the few who would sneak it into the endzone on a fourth and five .

The more hype around Vince and Leinart the better ... it makes the #1 pick more valable . I have no doubt Bush will have a great workout and the scouts will be drooling again .

Coach C.
01-05-2006, 12:20 PM
I think the closest thing to a NFL defense in college was LSU's defense two years ago.

Damn Tulexan I think this is the first time I have agreed with you. That is completely accuarate, and they like Texas still had several guys that will never see the NFL. If you go back some years to Miami's run they had the closest thing to an NFL team (offense and #of pros)

TXurias
01-05-2006, 12:20 PM
I am not sure if I am completely sold, but Vince Young did this against USC. This is not a NFL like defense but it is the closest thing we can see in the college game. Will Vince be able to run like he did last night? No, but he will be able to run with success. I am hearing John Granado on 610 stating that VY will not run the zone-option read. Why the hell not? Defenses are faster in the NFL, imparticular DEs (key to defending this play), but Vince runs this play better than anyone I have EVER seen.

If I can get a 2nd and 4/5th rounder or a 3rd and 4th rounder for Carr I have to think about trading him. This would enable the Texans to get VY and an additional starter in the draft.

My biggest concern is that Kubiak would be opposed to coming to the Texans because his offense requires a more traditional QB.
VY may be a great QB in college but I believe it will take him a few years to master the NFL. Not sure if you noticed but he ran almost every play out of the shotgun formation. Guess what i'm saying is that he's not a drop back QB...he has to be on the move to make plays and in the NFL that will catch up to u. Why is everyone all over VY's nuttz now......be realistic it's not going to happen. It will be Bush or bust. Not really i do understand the idea of trading for more picks but I believe bush will be a gamebreaker.

Vinny
01-05-2006, 12:22 PM
VY may be a great QB in college but I believe it will take him a few years to master the NFL. Not sure if you noticed but he ran almost every play out of the shotgun formation. Guess what i'm saying is that he's not a drop back QB...he has to be on the move to make plays and in the NFL that will catch up to u. So was Steve McNair at Alcorn State....he turned out pretty darn good.

TXurias
01-05-2006, 12:26 PM
So was Steve McNair at Alcorn State....he turned out pretty darn good.
come on....make a better post than that. At lease elaborate.....good point though but take a look at McNair's career. In and out of the lineup due to injury....inconsistent....had some big games but no championships. Come on....we're talking about passing up on drafting Bush who is like the next marshall faulk or whoever u want to compare him to. I'm going to call him the "Difference" cause he will make the difference in us winning or losing next year.

Vinny
01-05-2006, 12:32 PM
My post was fine. Elaborate on what? The fact that Alcorn state had nothing close to an NFL passing offense or elaborate on the fact that McNair and his lack of polish did little to hamper his becoming a big time NFL qb? Marshall Faulk ran between the tackles...I haven't seen Bush do this.

Honoring Earl 34
01-05-2006, 12:36 PM
:redtowel: Whats wrong with Steve Mcnair ? I think on a scale of 1-10 Steves 7.5 . He's a leader who is the toughest QB around . His team plays just like him , their just down right now .

bdiddy
01-05-2006, 12:38 PM
come on....make a better post than that. At lease elaborate.....good point though but take a look at McNair's career. In and out of the lineup due to injury....inconsistent....had some big games but no championships. Come on....we're talking about passing up on drafting Bush who is like the next marshall faulk or whoever u want to compare him to. I'm going to call him the "Difference" cause he will make the difference in us winning or losing next year.

McNair is a very good QB, remember he was within 1 yard of winning a Super Bowl. If VY or David Carr come close to McNair's production and leadership I will be very satisified.

swtbound07
01-05-2006, 02:35 PM
come on....make a better post than that. At lease elaborate.....good point though but take a look at McNair's career. In and out of the lineup due to injury....inconsistent....had some big games but no championships. Come on....we're talking about passing up on drafting Bush who is like the next marshall faulk or whoever u want to compare him to. I'm going to call him the "Difference" cause he will make the difference in us winning or losing next year.


he sure made the "difference" in USC beating texas.....oh wait. no. A good, solid defense shuts him down. And as for the people saying that if defenses key in on him it will open up other parts of the offense, guess what? If we cant run the ball with reggie, and David Carr STILL isnt a good quarterback, we are going to have even less of an offense then we already do. Either give me a mobile quarterback, or give me a better o-line, but dont take reggie. Overhyped, underperforming scat back. Difference? Yeah, but not in a good way.

BigBull17
01-05-2006, 02:49 PM
I am not sure if I am completely sold, but Vince Young did this against USC. This is not a NFL like defense but it is the closest thing we can see in the college game. Will Vince be able to run like he did last night? No, but he will be able to run with success. I am hearing John Granado on 610 stating that VY will not run the zone-option read. Why the hell not? Defenses are faster in the NFL, imparticular DEs (key to defending this play), but Vince runs this play better than anyone I have EVER seen.

If I can get a 2nd and 4/5th rounder or a 3rd and 4th rounder for Carr I have to think about trading him. This would enable the Texans to get VY and an additional starter in the draft.

My biggest concern is that Kubiak would be opposed to coming to the Texans because his offense requires a more traditional QB.

Plummer isnt a traditional QB and he makes it work.

TXurias
01-05-2006, 02:49 PM
Then we agree to disagree....Reggie wasn't shut down, he just didn't have a VY game. Reggie will be a star as will VY but right now Reggie can help us out at WR and RB. Pick up some OL and LB help in the later rounds and we're looking a lot better.

SESupergenius
01-05-2006, 03:21 PM
My post was fine. Elaborate on what? The fact that Alcorn state had nothing close to an NFL passing offense or elaborate on the fact that McNair and his lack of polish did little to hamper his becoming a big time NFL qb? Marshall Faulk ran between the tackles...I haven't seen Bush do this.
I was looking for that all night but I did see at least on 3 of his carries, he ran right at the line, other times his intention was to go through the line but the gap had closed so he improvised and bounced to the outside. He gained a lot of yards against a very good D, don't diminish was he did and be blinded by you man crush on Young? Maybe it's a first name crush you have with him.

rmartin65
01-05-2006, 03:25 PM
Scrambling quartebacks are among the most sacked in the league. A scrambling quarterback is not the answer.

Vinny
01-05-2006, 03:26 PM
I was looking for that all night but I did see at least on 3 of his carries, he ran right at the line, other times his intention was to go through the line but the gap had closed so he improvised and bounced to the outside. He gained a lot of yards against a very good D, don't diminish was he did and be blinded by you man crush on Young? Maybe it's a first name crush you have with him.Keep your comments to the game and the players would ya?

I never said "Vinny doesn't like Reggie Bush"....cause I do. I just think he is more of a Brian Westbrook type situational back. Lendale White was the second most impressive player last night in a night of star players. Bush looked good too....just not better than Young or Bush.

SESupergenius
01-05-2006, 03:53 PM
I am your weed in the garden.

The fact remains, that he will go through the line if it is available, like Barry Sanders did throughout his career, he bounced to outside when nothing was there. I'm not saying Bush is Sanders2, but he does go to the middle it is there.

William.carter
01-05-2006, 04:07 PM
he sure made the "difference" in USC beating texas.....oh wait. no. A good, solid defense shuts him down.

I don't think Reggie Bush is the second coming or anything, but 175 yards of combined offense and a TD isn't exactly shutdown.


It did shine a light on the fact that a solid defense made him look pretty ordinary dispite the numbers. What troubled me most about Bush lastnight is that after he made the mistake of attempting that lateral, he seemed to lose concentration. He looked like he carried that mistake with him for the rest of the game.

that's my take anyway

William.carter
01-05-2006, 04:14 PM
Until he is a serious passing threat (which I contend that he is not: he has not shown any long ball accuracy, and had all night to throw against USC last night), I will not look at him as a serious quarterback.

If you watched any of the UT games this season you would have seen that he can do deep with the ball accurately. HIs main critcism to date has been his inability to make short and mid range passes consistently. And he definitely did that last night. He made the adjustment and carried out a game plan that USC didn't expect out of him. Sure he went deep a few times and wasn't on the money, but ANY QB out there has a few throws per game like that.

That said, I'm not convinced he's ready to start in the NFL, but I am convinced that he is a more complete QB than people give him credit for.

LBC_Justin
01-05-2006, 04:28 PM
Am I a Homer?

Vince Young could help solve our offensive line woes in a hurry. Defenses will have to implore Michael Vick treatment which will immediately slow down the pass rush. Additionally, once the DEs get up field on VY there is no hope of holding him to less than 5 yards on a run. If we trade Carr for a couple of picks we could address multiple needs including the offensive line in the middle rounds.

Just a thought, a bit crazy and possibly premature, but something to consider.Here is what I don't understand about this topic. What in the world would make people think VY would do good with a poor O-line. He plays behind the BEST O-line in college right now. Plus, I can't recall a single QB who did good behind a crappy O-line.

chuckm
01-05-2006, 04:36 PM
Here is what I don't understand about this topic. What in the world would make people think VY would do good with a poor O-line. He plays behind the BEST O-line in college right now. Plus, I can't recall a single QB who did good behind a crappy O-line.


Get with the program Justin ... ok repeat after me ..... the eyes of Texas are upon you, all the live long day .....

LBC_Justin
01-05-2006, 04:44 PM
Get with the program Justin ... ok repeat after me ..... the eyes of Texas are upon you, all the live long day .....LOL yeah I know but I am a HUGE Horns fan. Heck I even went to the Rose Bowl to watch Texas play live. But let's get serious.

chuckm
01-05-2006, 04:46 PM
LOL yeah I know but I am a HUGE Horns fan. Heck I even went to the Rose Bowl to watch Texas play live. But let's get serious.


I am serious, well partly .... there's wayyyyy too much homerism going on to take much of this seriously .... it'll subside over the next few months (hopefully) and things should become a bit clearer ....

Vinny
01-05-2006, 05:03 PM
I am your weed in the garden. You know football...so you are a flower. I won't make the weed list....it's a bit long.

Double Barrel
01-05-2006, 05:48 PM
VY is indeed a great looking prospect. Could even be the Next.Big.Thing

But the NFL has a way of equalizing tendencies, and I notice most of the previously hyped "new prototype running QBs" in the league are watching the playoffs this year. What we have left, for the most part, are pocket passers. Old school QBs.

Every time a new scheme is implemented in the NFL, it catches fire for awhile, and then some defensive genius figures out a way to counter it. Same goes for the recent trend towards the vertical running QB.

I've always maintained that a QB has to be a passer first, runner second. Age will always diminish running skills, and if there are no pure QB skills left after that (ie. accurate passing, reading defenses, etc), you've got a shell of a player left.

So while VY might be the Next.Big.Thing, are we really ready to basically start from scratch with another rookie QB? Behind a line that leaks like a sieve and has yet to be addressed? Without a viable #2 receiving threat? idonno:

Vinny
01-05-2006, 05:59 PM
So while VY might be the Next.Big.Thing, are we really ready to basically start from scratch with another rookie QB? Behind a line that leaks like a sieve and has yet to be addressed? Without a viable #2 receiving threat? idonno:Next year is year 5 from Carr....that's a half a decade. If it takes Young as long as it took Carr to mature it will be next decade...that's how long we have been waiting for Carr, and we are still talking about his potential...

HoustonFrog
01-05-2006, 06:02 PM
Next year is year 5 from Carr....that's a half a decade. If it takes Young as long as it took Carr to mature it will be next decade...that's how long we have been waiting for Carr.

I think the difference MIGHT be though that while Vince grows he still will have the athletic ability to get out of some of his own jams. In no way am I advocating drafting him. Just saying I think his learning curve can still produce results.

Vinny
01-05-2006, 06:05 PM
I'm stating (and not too well at that) is that if we have been waiting 5 years, we may likely wait longer at this point. I don't think we are progressive enough thinkers to take Young (so I'm not expecting it)...but we will see.

TheOgre
01-05-2006, 06:15 PM
The best place, unfortunately, for Young would be the Titans. Steve McNair could stay and continue to mentor him. Young could sit the bench a season and "learn the ropes".

Double Barrel
01-05-2006, 06:37 PM
Next year is year 5 from Carr....that's a half a decade. If it takes Young as long as it took Carr to mature it will be next decade...that's how long we have been waiting for Carr, and we are still talking about his potential...

That is a valid point. The tough part is trying to evaluate a QB while filtering it with the fact that he's had a less than stellar cast around him. Any QB, given Carr's situation of the first four seasons, would probably look mediocre at best.

For instance, a lot of folks believe that VY could just run his way out of trouble. But when the team only has one viable receiving threat, and a running game that is mediocre at best, defenses would spy a running QB and stop him cold.

My problem with Carr is that he's displaying some of the same tendencies he's had since college. Telegraphing his reciever and inability to read defenses being the primary concerns.

Young could be everything and a bag of chips, but unless many other areas of our offense are improved upon, I'm afraid we'll break him just like we broke Carr. Potential is nothing in the NFL without 10 other players to support it.

I'm not on anyone's bandwagon - Young, Bush, whoever - nor am I off of them. At this point it's more of an analysis perspective to see what's available and go from there.

Letting Carr go and getting Young is definitely a tempting option, though. But I won't get any hopes up until we know for sure that he's declaring.

tulexan
01-05-2006, 06:42 PM
The way our pass blocking is, by the time he takes a 3 or 5 step (which he has never done), he will be sacked. I don't care how big or fast he is. Daunte Culpeper is bigger and stronger than Vince Young and still gets sacked by NFL players.

edo783
01-05-2006, 07:32 PM
Pick up the two year extension, let him be the pinata for a couple more years and have Young ready as we add to the needed spot in the next two drafts.

tulexan
01-05-2006, 07:34 PM
So you are going to have a $50 or 60 million player sit on the bench for a couple of years?

real
01-05-2006, 07:42 PM
vick did

SESupergenius
01-06-2006, 12:41 AM
I'm stating (and not too well at that) is that if we have been waiting 5 years, we may likely wait longer at this point. I don't think we are progressive enough thinkers to take Young (so I'm not expecting it)...but we will see.
I could see your point if it weren't for the 1st couple of years we were getting our feet wet as a franchise. I feel a bit of desperation in you comments and tones from when you practiced patience. Carr is on a short leash, just like everyone else on this football team. Did Carr regress or did the whole offensive system fail him from Casserly/Capers not protecting him and bringing talent to Pendry's 2-yard hitch solutions? Carr progressed every year until this year, why? Are you thinking Carr did something to his game or has he maxed out his potential and has plateaued? I tend to think he's got more in him, especially if we bring in a west coast offense.