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View Full Version : Rookie O-Line Draft Choices vs. Free Agency


houstonhurricane
01-02-2006, 10:15 PM
Folks,

If anyone has some insight on the following topic, I would appreciate the education...Do rookie offensive lineman usually start and/or have success during their first year in the league? As we debate our draft choices vice free agency pickups, I was wondering if they are not as successful in their first year, if we can afford to simply go the draft route or we are going to be forced to grab one or two vets. I am not sure that the franchise is ready to dedicate next season as a building block year, so we may need at least a couple of OL that can step in immediately. Thanks for your thoughts.

Grid
01-02-2006, 10:26 PM
Left Tackles will usually NOT be starter material their first year.. at least at the LT position. The really elite prospects, alot of the time, are good enough to play Right Tackle though.

Rookie Guards, i beleive, have more success in their first year.. as well as Centers. Though no player is a sure thing to start.

As for Free Agency. To my Knowledge, there are NOT many good tackles available in free agency this season. There are some good Guards available though.. such as Steve Hutchinson from Seattle.. and there is at least one good Center in FA.. cant remember his name, he is from NO... dont be surprised to see him get franchised or something like that though.

powda
01-02-2006, 10:36 PM
its not unheard of for rookie linemen to contribute immediately...consider the chargers line last year. furthermore, the impact on the cap will play a definite factor. ideally you spend far less money by drafting a player and cultivating him in your offense. when your 2-14 your gonna have to break the bank to attract a quality free agent however.

i'd like to see a solid quality fa aquisition but i doubt it.

Goldeagle
01-02-2006, 10:52 PM
Orlando Pace, Jonathan Ogden started. Alex Barron and the guy from Oklahoma this year are both starting at RT and LT. Jordan Gross split time at RT and LT and still does.

houstonhurricane
01-02-2006, 11:00 PM
Well, that is encouraging news. I would imagine that putting a rookie at LT could be a very risky move - especially from Carr's point of view. However, starting them at RT and gradually moving them over sounds like it could work.

I would prefer to draft some young O linemen rather than go the FA route. What do you guys see out there in the early second and third rounds? As a 'Cane I have been a little disappointed in Winston's play this year. Due to his struggles, is it possible for him to fall to our second round pick?

Grid
01-02-2006, 11:12 PM
Winston and Scott are both possibilities to slide to the second round.

Id like us to pick up a Center in FA, or in the 3rd/4th round.

Then id like us to try and get OG Steve Hutchinson from Seattle in Free Agency, and Draft OG Max Jean-Gilles.

THEN id like us to try Seth Wand at RT, and possibly pick up Scott or Winston with the #33 pick.

That would be Bush at #1..and 3 Olinemen in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds... sounds about right.

Then id like us to let Wiegert, Washington, Weary, and Brown go.

Our Oline next year would look like this


RT: Wand/Scott/Winston/Wade/Jean-Gilles
RG: Hutchinson/Jean-Gilles/McKinney
C: Hodgdon/Rookie/McKinney
LG: McKinney/Jean-Gilles/Hutchinson
LT: Pitts/Wand/Scott/Winston/Wade

That would be 9 Olinemen total. Pitts, Wand, Wade, McKinney, Jean-Gilles, Hutchinson, Hodgdon, Scott/Winston, and the Rookie Center.

GoBlue
01-02-2006, 11:13 PM
Our O-line is not that bad, esp with Pitts moving back to LT. I would like to see an starting line-up like this next year

LT- Pitts
LG- McKinney
C- Hodgon
RG- Weigert
RT- high draft pick or FA

Our line gets SO much better with McKinney moving back to Guard and allowing the infinitely more athletic Hodgon to play C. Weigert is an above average RG but below average RT (still better than Todd Wade). If we can make just one solid quality addition, it can make a world of difference.

houstonhurricane
01-02-2006, 11:15 PM
Grid,

I actually like that lineup quite a bit. Is Seattle going to fight us for Hutchinson? I thought they really liked him out there? My only concern is that none of those draft picks/FA signings would help us on the defensive side of the ball. Maybe a change to the 4-3 would allow us to do more with what we have there...

GoBlue
01-02-2006, 11:17 PM
Nice post Grid- I agree almost completely, I'm just not ready to give up on Weigert yet. I would rather see him at RG than Wand at RT. I do agree than we should go Bush, then O-line in rounds 2,3 and 4.

Need other defensive help in the latter rounds- DB in particular. Petey should never be more than a nickle corner.

Grid
01-02-2006, 11:18 PM
I think that a change of coaching staff is gonna help our defense alot more than more players will. I think the root of our problems on Defense was Fangio and how much he made our guys think, instead of playing on instinct.

We DO need to add a CB in my opinion.. and we could use more guys on the Dline but I think that can wait till next offseason if necessary. We might be able to get our CB in Free Agency.. if not.. one of our 2 3rd rounders may be a possibility.. though I dont know if there will be any quality CBs available in the 3rd this year.


*EDIT* oh.. and yah they like Hutchinson in Seattle.. I dont know how hard it would be to get him.. but he is a very good guard, and still young. Plus, with Seattle playing so well this year.. convincing a guy whos team MAY be in the superbowl this year.. to come over to the worst team in the league....may be kinda difficult. But ya never know.. maybe someone on our new coaching staff will be one of his old coaches or something :)

*EDIT AGAIN* If Hutchinson WONT come.. Max Jean-Gilles looks really good and im betting he could start at RG... then we could just hold on to Wiegert for depth.

dat_boy_yec
01-02-2006, 11:24 PM
Winston and Scott are both possibilities to slide to the second round.

Id like us to pick up a Center in FA, or in the 3rd/4th round.

Then id like us to try and get OG Steve Hutchinson from Seattle in Free Agency, and Draft OG Max Jean-Gilles.

THEN id like us to try Seth Wand at RT, and possibly pick up Scott or Winston with the #33 pick.

That would be Bush at #1..and 3 Olinemen in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds... sounds about right.

Then id like us to let Wiegert, Washington, Weary, and Brown go.

Our Oline next year would look like this


RT: Wand/Scott/Winston/Wade/Jean-Gilles
RG: Hutchinson/Jean-Gilles/McKinney
C: Hodgdon/Rookie/McKinney
LG: McKinney/Jean-Gilles/Hutchinson
LT: Pitts/Wand/Scott/Winston/Wade

That would be 9 Olinemen total. Pitts, Wand, Wade, McKinney, Jean-Gilles, Hutchinson, Hodgdon, Scott/Winston, and the Rookie Center.

Well thought out. Just a question, if, and this is probably a big if, we landed Hutchinson or the center from the Saints, what would you like to try to get in the 3rd & 4th rds? I think we should address some other needs as well and would like to know your thoughts.

houstonhurricane
01-02-2006, 11:24 PM
Grid,

I really appreciate your insight on the topics raised. While I am a fan of grabbing Bush, I want to make sure I am properly educated on our OL positioning. I also agree with your assessment on the defense side. If Babin can build off of his recent performances and Peek steps it up, it will make life much easier for our struggling secondary. A CB would be nice, but I don't see much talent making it to the third round.

Grid
01-02-2006, 11:27 PM
yah getting a rookie CB in the third that could come in and be an immediate starter would be quite a feat. FA may be our best bet there.

Yah Peek and Babin will be better in a defense that cuts them loose.. Both are very athletic and are capable of being monster pass rushers. And there is also Orr.. who really came into his own this past season.

We will also have Wong back at ILB.. and DaShon Polk looked like he may be starter quality at ILB as well.

dat_boy_yec
01-02-2006, 11:30 PM
Well thought out. Just a question, if, and this is probably a big if, we landed Hutchinson or the center from the Saints, what would you like to try to get in the 3rd & 4th rds? I think we should address some other needs as well and would like to know your thoughts.

lol, you answered my questions while I was typing this. Pls disregard me question.

edo783
01-02-2006, 11:30 PM
There is a quality FA CB available, but darned if I can remember the name. Someone brought him up, seemed like a high number to get him.

Grid
01-02-2006, 11:31 PM
Dat Boy.. if we managed to fill needs at Guard and Center in FA.. id still like us to grab Max Jean-Gilles. McKinney doesnt have all THAT much left in his tank.. and even though he will be alot better at Guard than he was at Center.. he will probably only be with us a couple more seasons..if that. Jean-Gilles is an elite guard prospect.


But if we have free picks in the 3rd and 4th.. id think we would be best served by addressing the Dline. good 3-4 tackles can be found in the middle rounds. Maybe not Casey Hampton quality tackles.. but talented enough to at lease provide depth..and we may get lucky and find a starter.

It also might be a good idea to look for a Free Saftey. In our pass happy division.. the secondary is very important.. and as much as I like both CC Brown and Glen Earl.. I think both of them are more suited to the SS position.. a taller, and faster ballhawk at FS would be nice.

vtech9
01-02-2006, 11:36 PM
Winston and Scott are both possibilities to slide to the second round.

Id like us to pick up a Center in FA, or in the 3rd/4th round.

Then id like us to try and get OG Steve Hutchinson from Seattle in Free Agency, and Draft OG Max Jean-Gilles.

THEN id like us to try Seth Wand at RT, and possibly pick up Scott or Winston with the #33 pick.

That would be Bush at #1..and 3 Olinemen in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds... sounds about right.

Then id like us to let Wiegert, Washington, Weary, and Brown go.

Our Oline next year would look like this


RT: Wand/Scott/Winston/Wade/Jean-Gilles
RG: Hutchinson/Jean-Gilles/McKinney
C: Hodgdon/Rookie/McKinney
LG: McKinney/Jean-Gilles/Hutchinson
LT: Pitts/Wand/Scott/Winston/Wade

That would be 9 Olinemen total. Pitts, Wand, Wade, McKinney, Jean-Gilles, Hutchinson, Hodgdon, Scott/Winston, and the Rookie Center.
I'd almost go with that grid, but you lost me on a couple things. There is no way that I want to see McKinney as anything other than depth, and would prefer to see him as depth on another team. That would mean that they suck worse than we do. The other thing you lost me on is getting rid of Weigert. When he is healthy, he is one of our two best O-Linemen if not the best.

ccdude730
01-02-2006, 11:38 PM
i like the fact of us keeping pitts at tackle, but at some point (assuming we draft a LT) would pitts return to LG or move to a RT where i think he would absolutely dominate?

i would like to see mckinney and both reserve G to be out of here. weigert should be able to handle things for another year but his contract might become an issue eventually...and why we played him at RT when wand is just standing around suited up is beyond me.

Grid
01-02-2006, 11:39 PM
Eh.. Wiegert...I wouldnt be against keeping him.. but I think he is a worse guard than McKinney personally.

McKinney was never a center.. I dont even know why we played him at Center.. he was always a guard. When Hodgdon was in and we played McKinney at LG..he looked great. Him and Pitts worked very well together.

I think we might have an easier time, cap wise, getting rid of Wiegert as well.. though im not positive on that. Plus.. Wiegert seems to have some major durability issues..has he played a full season for us yet?

Personally.. had I the choice.. id make sure to get a good tackle prospect at #33, and id cut Wade.. but that would kill our Cap.

Grid
01-02-2006, 11:40 PM
CCDude.. I like Pitts at LT.. but if one of our young players.. Wand or Scott/Winston..or even Max Jean-Gilles if he surprised us.. was able to beat Pitts out for the job, then id definatly want to move Pitts to RT. I agree..I think he would really dominate there. And personally I wasnt impressed with him at LG.. I think he is better suited to the Tackle position.

vtech9
01-02-2006, 11:50 PM
Eh.. Wiegert...I wouldnt be against keeping him.. but I think he is a worse guard than McKinney personally.

McKinney was never a center.. I dont even know why we played him at Center.. he was always a guard. When Hodgdon was in and we played McKinney at LG..he looked great. Him and Pitts worked very well together.

I think we might have an easier time, cap wise, getting rid of Wiegert as well.. though im not positive on that. Plus.. Wiegert seems to have some major durability issues..has he played a full season for us yet?

Personally.. had I the choice.. id make sure to get a good tackle prospect at #33, and id cut Wade.. but that would kill our Cap.

You see...THAT is where we differ. When McKinney switched to LG, he was still our weak link. I can still picture the D-Linemen just blowing by him with a fake to the outside and then coming straight up the gut to nail Carr. That's why I don't want to see McKinney in a Texans uniform next year.

ccdude730
01-02-2006, 11:54 PM
i would cut wade as well. just bite the bullet and get it over with.

mckinney does play better at LG, but he still struggles at times with run blocking. it pains me to see someone with a top contract on our team playing like that.

how high would you rate our FS needs? i would say more of a 2nd to 3rd round pick would be ideal. earl seems to be playing solid at SS while CC brown has been suspect in pass defense since hes been on the field IMO.

Grid
01-03-2006, 12:02 AM
Hmm.. I wish I had the games taped so I could go back and watch again.

Ahh well.. the new coaching staff will come in and evaluate.. and I imagine we will find out once and for all if McKinney is a good Olineman or not.

BTW.. CB Prospects worth looking at.

Nate Clements out of Buffalo (probably be tagged)
Reynaldo Hill out of Oakland
Ike Taylor out of Pittsburgh
Kenny Wright out of Jacksonville (wish we never would have cut him)

Grid
01-03-2006, 12:04 AM
unless someone really good is available.. I wouldnt pick a FS higher than the third round.. and prefferably in the 4th id say.

houstonhurricane
01-03-2006, 12:06 AM
Grid,

I do like Hill out of Oakland, but there is no way Casserly is going to pick up another Raider CB...no way! When would Buffalo make the "tag" decision on Clements?

Grid
01-03-2006, 12:10 AM
probably pretty close to the FA period I imagine. Course I dont know their cap situation.. they may decide not to tag him. I know they dont have any other crucial free agents they will be losing though. Not as big as Clements anyway.

Ike Taylor out of Pittsburgh would be my top choice.. but he is an RFA.. so thats kinda tough.

TexanBacker93
01-03-2006, 12:17 AM
I don't see them going with a FA lineman. It will cost them too much to get a guy like Hutchison who will be franchised if he doesn't sign long term. I think McKinney will be gone with his nearly $5 million salary and lack of ability. I'd like to see them look at Mangold from Ohio State and/or Jean-Gilles from Georgia. With Hodges that would give them 3 young solid interior linemen. Keep Pitts and Weigert playing at the tackles. Pitts has been a good LT for the Texans. He wasn't the problem in year one with some of the players playing on that line with him. Wade might get the start at RT, though, with Weigert staying at Guard next year.

Grid
01-03-2006, 12:25 AM
I don't see them going with a FA lineman. It will cost them too much to get a guy like Hutchison who will be franchised if he doesn't sign long term. I think McKinney will be gone with his nearly $5 million salary and lack of ability. I'd like to see them look at Mangold from Ohio State and/or Jean-Gilles from Georgia. With Hodges that would give them 3 young solid interior linemen. Keep Pitts and Weigert playing at the tackles. Pitts has been a good LT for the Texans. He wasn't the problem in year one with some of the players playing on that line with him. Wade might get the start at RT, though, with Weigert staying at Guard next year.

Wand needs to see some time at RT. He wasnt as bad an LT as he was made out to be, he could very well be the long term answer at RT. I dont know what has kept the coaches from playing him there though.. it could be something behind the scenes that we dont know about, or.. it could have just been a PR move because they payed Wade so much.

Yah Hutchinson MIGHT be really expensive to bring in.. in fact.. id put money on him costing alot more than we would want to pay.. at least to bring him here. Btut if he could be had for a resonable price, id jump on it.


But like I said.. and you said... Max Jean-Gilles/Mangold could possibly come in and immediatly be a starter at guard. If McKinney doesnt work out.. one of those two and Wiegert could probably hold down the guard spots. Hodgdon at Center and Pitts at LT/Wand or Wade at RT.. and we may have a finished Oline.

clandestin
01-03-2006, 02:42 AM
Winston and Scott are both possibilities to slide to the second round.

Id like us to pick up a Center in FA, or in the 3rd/4th round.

Then id like us to try and get OG Steve Hutchinson from Seattle in Free Agency, and Draft OG Max Jean-Gilles.

THEN id like us to try Seth Wand at RT, and possibly pick up Scott or Winston with the #33 pick.

That would be Bush at #1..and 3 Olinemen in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds... sounds about right.

Then id like us to let Wiegert, Washington, Weary, and Brown go.

Our Oline next year would look like this


RT: Wand/Scott/Winston/Wade/Jean-Gilles
RG: Hutchinson/Jean-Gilles/McKinney
C: Hodgdon/Rookie/McKinney
LG: McKinney/Jean-Gilles/Hutchinson
LT: Pitts/Wand/Scott/Winston/Wade

That would be 9 Olinemen total. Pitts, Wand, Wade, McKinney, Jean-Gilles, Hutchinson, Hodgdon, Scott/Winston, and the Rookie Center.

I'm not trying to pick on you with these takes, but you're killing me. Can you please explain how starting the league's leading interior lineman (Mckinney) in "SACKS ALLOWED" along with the 2004 overall leader (Wand) in "SACKS ALLOWED" is supposed to 'solve' our OL problems???

Wand: The prototype for RT is a guy whose feet and athleticism aren't good enough for LT, but who has the power to play on the strong side. Wand is the exact opposite. His feet weren't terrible and his quickness wasn't bad, but he couldn't hold off the bull rush by any other means than backpedaling into the pocket. I'm pretty sure lining him up against a power rusher on the strong side isn't going to help his game.

If that wasn't enough I have one simple comment: "He was beat out by Victor Riley." The End.

Mckinney: If he starts, every DT we play next year will be working on their spin move whilst dreaming about the probowl.

Bobo
01-03-2006, 03:12 AM
Folks,

If anyone has some insight on the following topic, I would appreciate the education...Do rookie offensive lineman usually start and/or have success during their first year in the league? As we debate our draft choices vice free agency pickups, I was wondering if they are not as successful in their first year, if we can afford to simply go the draft route or we are going to be forced to grab one or two vets. I am not sure that the franchise is ready to dedicate next season as a building block year, so we may need at least a couple of OL that can step in immediately. Thanks for your thoughts.

The only OL vets that the Texans will be able to pick up will be rejects from other teams. Most FAs won't want to come to Houston anyway because they want a chance to go to the SB -- something we don't offer them in the near future. The only kind of FAs who will want to come here are guys who are desperately trying to just stay in the league.

Grid
01-03-2006, 08:49 AM
Wand "sacks allowed" stat was severely padded by the breakdown in the interior of the Oline. The Interior of the line would collapse.. forcing Carr out of the pocket and directly into the guy Wand was blocking. If the Interior had held the pocket.. Carr would have instead stepped forward, or stayed where he was, and Wand's guy wouldnt have reached him.

All im saying is that Wand needs to see time at RT because he COULD be good there... he hasnt been looked at at RT, and that just isnt right. He may not be the answer, but we at least need to make sure.

As for McKinney.. as I said.. hes not a Center... never has been a center. We played him at Center for god knows what reason. At Guard hes a much better lineman.

But, as others here have pointed out, he wasnt that good at guard, and i dont have the film to go back and check myself... so, if that is the case, then just replace McKinney with Wiegert in my lineup.

Runner
01-03-2006, 09:51 AM
.
If that wasn't enough I have one simple comment: "He was beat out by Victor Riley." The End.


Grid covered most of your post. Wand's first year starting at LT was similar enough to Pitts' that he should have been given his chance to improve and show what he had this year - he was projected to start in his 3rd year anyway - he was ahead of schedule. I would have thought that this year's pass blocking would have proven that Wand was assigned an undue amount of the blame last year, but I guess that isn't clear. Guess what? We replaced the LT and were worse all year. We had better protection last year, we passed better last year, and our running was strongest to the left last year.

Also, Pendry replaced Wand with Victor Riley. In no way did Riley beat Wand out for the job, and Riley's continued starting for four games of absolutely pathetic performances shows that ability was not reason for the replacement. This sort of action is one reason Pendry was key to this season's and this coaching staff's demise.

JfromthaTray
01-03-2006, 10:02 AM
Whats this infatuation with Seth Wand he's big slow and weak as far as i'm concerned, he's taking up a roster spot.

Runner
01-03-2006, 10:11 AM
Whats this infatuation with Seth Wand he's big slow and weak as far as i'm concerned, he's taking up a roster spot.

No infatuation, it's just that his peers think more highly of him than the vast majority of the people on this board. For instance I know when he ran sprints with the linebackers instead of other lineman one day last year during the offseason, "slow" wasn't the word they were using to describe him.

As an aside, I'd put Jonathan Wells in that same category of being very respected by other players more so than this board.

JfromthaTray
01-03-2006, 10:21 AM
No infatuation, it's just that his peers think more highly of him than the vast majority of the people on this board. For instance I know when he ran sprints with the linebackers instead of other lineman one day last year during the offseason, "slow" wasn't the word they were using to describe him.

As an aside, I'd put Jonathan Wells in that same category of being very respected by other players more so than this board.
Running sprints and coming off of the football fast are very different. His 40 time is not a factor when he's lined up against the likes of freeney, taylor, strahan, peppers, and so on. Also, with all of the problems that we have with the line, why wasn't he able to hold a starting job, or get meaningful playing time? He was beat out by Riley for goodness sakes. Unfortunately, peers and boardmembers respect don't get you on the field, that should speak volumes as to how the coaching staff felt about him.

Runner
01-03-2006, 10:38 AM
Running sprints and coming off of the football fast are very different. His 40 time is not a factor when he's lined up against the likes of freeney, taylor, strahan, peppers, and so on. Also, with all of the problems that we have with the line, why wasn't he able to hold a starting job, or get meaningful playing time? He was beat out by Riley for goodness sakes. Unfortunately, peers and boardmembers respect don't get you on the field, that should speak volumes as to how the coaching staff felt about him.

I understand your position. I'll easily take the opinion of the other players over that of Joe Pendry though.

JfromthaTray
01-03-2006, 10:42 AM
Thats fine, then we agree to disagree on Wand. As for Pendry, my question was how do we take a guy who coaches a poor o-line and put him over the entire offense.

Runner
01-03-2006, 10:45 AM
Thats fine, then we agree to disagree on Wand. As for Pendry, my question was how do we take a guy who coaches a poor o-line and put him over the entire offense.

I guess Capers' friendship got him the job(s) and Capers' loyalty allowed him to take down the offensive ship. The same for Fangio and the defense.

Honoring Earl 34
01-03-2006, 12:11 PM
:redtowel: Seth Wand had the fastest 3 cone drill at the combine when he was drafted . Seth benched 225 lbs a total of 20 times . His 40 yd dash was 5.14 . He has a slight learning problem according to some .

Seth Wand did'nt even have an OL coach in college plus he needed to hit the weights . Seth is a TND (Texan not developed ) just like a bunch of other picks . He needed 2-3 years to learn and get stronger . I hope he survived that #@#@ Pendry's doghouse .

Fred Weary was the top center in 2002 . He's another TND . I don't think the Texans were dealt all Aces in the draft but they were'nt dealt a bunch of deuces and treys either .

tulexan
01-03-2006, 12:24 PM
Hmm.. I wish I had the games taped so I could go back and watch again.

Ahh well.. the new coaching staff will come in and evaluate.. and I imagine we will find out once and for all if McKinney is a good Olineman or not.

BTW.. CB Prospects worth looking at.

Nate Clements out of Buffalo (probably be tagged)
Reynaldo Hill out of Oakland
Ike Taylor out of Pittsburgh
Kenny Wright out of Jacksonville (wish we never would have cut him)


Ty Law is available too I believe.

UGA
01-03-2006, 01:09 PM
Mckinney has to be cut. His cap figure exceeds his talent, and we definently wont be able to make a free agent run of note with his cap hit. Its 1 million against the cap to cut him, 5 million to keep him. We cannot sign a free agent and draft 2-3 lineman with his figure against the books.

Obviously we keep Pitts.

Mckinney is 800k to cut, and 4.7m to keep. He has to be cut.

Seth Wand is a FA that wont cost much to resign. Keeper.

Washington is 800k to keep, 170k to cut. Release.

Todd Wade's contract is the worst of the group at 5 mill to keep and 6 mill to cut. He's immovable.

Weary and Hodgdon are cheap depth, young and coachable.

Riley.. cut.

Wiegert is 4.2m to keep, 1.4 to cut. I say bite the bullet and release him.

Thats about 2.3 million against the books next season to release Mckinney,Wiegert and Washington. On the other hand it frees up 7.3 million to get replacements for them.

So we are looking at Pitts, Wand, Wade, Weary, Hodgdon, Brown, with about 4-5 million to offer for a FA next season, and around 3 million for draft picks.

michaelm
01-03-2006, 01:52 PM
Thats about 2.3 million against the books next season to release Mckinney,Wiegert and Washington. On the other hand it frees up 7.3 million to get replacements for them.



seems like a pretty decent situation financially. I believe that we will have some pretty good $ to spend over the next two years or so.

Now, who are the viable replacements that fit our budget?

bdiddy
01-03-2006, 02:31 PM
Rookies can start right away, but generally this only happens if the remainder of the O-line is composed of veterans that have played together for a while.

If the Texans trade down and use a top-10 pick on a LT, the kid should be good enough to start immediately (if not, then do not draft him this high).

If we are interested in a center (tied for the highest area of need on o-line with RT) I would prefer to get this position via free agency. Centers need to be smart and athletic. McKinney is smart but lacks enough quickness and athleticism to play center. However, he is a slightly above average guard. I would like to sign LeCharles Bently from the Saints to play center and move McKinney to guard.

LT-Pitts (Draft pick, if he is better than Pitts during training camp)
LG-McKinney
C-LeCharles Bently (FA from Saints)
RG-Weigart
Rt-Draft pick (or Pitts if Draft pick is good enough to play LT), I am thinking Johnathan Scott

UGA
01-03-2006, 02:56 PM
Rookies can start right away, but generally this only happens if the remainder of the O-line is composed of veterans that have played together for a while.

If the Texans trade down and use a top-10 pick on a LT, the kid should be good enough to start immediately (if not, then do not draft him this high).

If we are interested in a center (tied for the highest area of need on o-line with RT) I would prefer to get this position via free agency. Centers need to be smart and athletic. McKinney is smart but lacks enough quickness and athleticism to play center. However, he is a slightly above average guard. I would like to sign LeCharles Bently from the Saints to play center and move McKinney to guard.

LT-Pitts (Draft pick, if he is better than Pitts during training camp)
LG-McKinney
C-LeCharles Bently (FA from Saints)
RG-Weigart
Rt-Draft pick (or Pitts if Draft pick is good enough to play LT), I am thinking Johnathan Scott

Fiscally we cannot keep Mckinney, sign Bently, sign a high first round franchise lineman.

To sign new blood you have to clear up the contracts you currently have. In order to sign bently (someone id like to see us make a run at) we would need extra cap room, and Mckinney's 4.2 mill goes a long way in that direction. Also a top 10 pick and franchise tackle will cost. But we cannot keep Mckinney, sign a nice player like Bently and take a franchise lineman.

People have to go from the line to bring in fresh meat. Mckinney is the easiest and most obvious cut since we make about 4.2 in the process, and he is aging. Wegiert actually hurts us more then Mckinney to cut, but again, you cant bring in new players without the money to do so. Those two players, mixed with Washingtons pink slip ultimately free up 7.3 million in cap space while only hitting us with 2.5 in dead cap weight for one year. With 7.3 we can make a run at bently, then have the money to sign 2-3 draft lineman whom we got in the 2/3rd rounds after taking Bush :)

TexanAddict
01-03-2006, 03:02 PM
and there is at least one good Center in FA.. cant remember his name, he is from NO

LeCharles Bentley

Sign this man.

TexanAddict
01-03-2006, 03:04 PM
dont be surprised to see him get franchised or something like that though.

"The team is unlikely to consider placing a franchise tag on Bentley, because then they would have to pay him the average salary of the top five offensive linemen in the league at any position -- including the high-priced left tackles."

http://www.nola.com/sports/t-p/index.ssf?/base/sports-21/1135249737277260.xml

bdiddy
01-03-2006, 04:34 PM
Fiscally we cannot keep Mckinney, sign Bently, sign a high first round franchise lineman.

To sign new blood you have to clear up the contracts you currently have. In order to sign bently (someone id like to see us make a run at) we would need extra cap room, and Mckinney's 4.2 mill goes a long way in that direction. Also a top 10 pick and franchise tackle will cost. But we cannot keep Mckinney, sign a nice player like Bently and take a franchise lineman.

People have to go from the line to bring in fresh meat. Mckinney is the easiest and most obvious cut since we make about 4.2 in the process, and he is aging. Wegiert actually hurts us more then Mckinney to cut, but again, you cant bring in new players without the money to do so. Those two players, mixed with Washingtons pink slip ultimately free up 7.3 million in cap space while only hitting us with 2.5 in dead cap weight for one year. With 7.3 we can make a run at bently, then have the money to sign 2-3 draft lineman whom we got in the 2/3rd rounds after taking Bush :)

McKinney will not be outright cut. Contrary to what many people on this board claim, McKinney is a decent LG (not a center). He has been playing out of position since arriving with the Texans. He was on 610am this morning talking about his willingness to restructure/redo his contract. McKinney is from the area and an Aggie, i.e., he does not want to go to another franchise. He will restructure his contract so as to make more money available. In addition, it is likely that Todd Wade will restructure his deal - at least that is what the Texans are hoping (going to try an force his hand considering he has underperformed and is coming off of an injury).

We are not going to draft a "franchise" lineman. A franchise lineman is someone taken in the top 10 picks in the draft. We are going to draft a solid RT in the second round, he will make good but by no means "franchise" money.

LeCharles Bently is the real deal and will not command as much money as some might think (remember his team, the Saints, will have little to offer in terms of living conditions). It is possible to sign him and draft a RT in the second round. This is the Texans best course of action.

Grid
01-03-2006, 05:26 PM
Id say getting LeCharles Bently would be a very good move for us.

The problem I see for us is at the guard positions.

If we release Wiegert, we dont really have a starting quality guard to put opposite of McKinney. Same if we release McKinney and drop Wiegert.

We need to draft a guard then.. or sign one (signing a good one looks difficult).. Max Jean-Gilles would be my first choice.. but if we take an RT in the second.. we are going to need to package our 2 3rd rounders and move up to get Jean-Gilles.. cause he is gonna be gone by the third round.

UGA
01-03-2006, 06:18 PM
McKinney will not be outright cut. Contrary to what many people on this board claim, McKinney is a decent LG (not a center). He has been playing out of position since arriving with the Texans. He was on 610am this morning talking about his willingness to restructure/redo his contract. McKinney is from the area and an Aggie, i.e., he does not want to go to another franchise. He will restructure his contract so as to make more money available. In addition, it is likely that Todd Wade will restructure his deal - at least that is what the Texans are hoping (going to try an force his hand considering he has underperformed and is coming off of an injury).

We are not going to draft a "franchise" lineman. A franchise lineman is someone taken in the top 10 picks in the draft. We are going to draft a solid RT in the second round, he will make good but by no means "franchise" money.

LeCharles Bently is the real deal and will not command as much money as some might think (remember his team, the Saints, will have little to offer in terms of living conditions). It is possible to sign him and draft a RT in the second round. This is the Texans best course of action.

The major problem i have is that your merely shuffling the pre-existing line we have. Restructuring contracts or not, it doesnt have any bearing on the field. When you have one of the leagues worst lines, you dont reshuffle them around (weve tried that)... you start dropping them and start over from scratch.

I agree we need someone like Bently (dont think we are the only ones in the league that could use him), but he's gotta be paid with someone elses money from this line. I think its wishful thinking at best that McKinney and Wade are going to give up substantial portions of their contracts so that the Texans can go out and reel in a probowl level lineman. These guys might take a small cut, but not on the levels we need to be able to substancially improve this line. Wade is due substantial money wether we cut him or not... he isnt just going to slash his contract in half on principle. Mckinney is in a less then favorable position being due only 800k if cut, and 4 mil if kept. But i dont see him viewing restructuring his deal meaning hell accept 2 million even though hes on paper for 4 and a half. And if the only way we could pull that off is giving him extra years... how effective is it to lengthen deals for aguing lineman on a bad line?

I just think weve got to strip these unit and start rebulding from the floor up (Pitts, a key signing "Bently", and a 2nd and 3rd round draft pick). Holding over only those who are young and cap friendly.

Grid
01-03-2006, 07:26 PM
You cant just throw every olineman we have into the "they suck" bag and chunk em in a river.

We HAVE some talent on the line....it only takes one or two weak players to ruin an entire Oline.. and that is exactly what our problem is.

Pitts is good at LT. Hodgdon looked good at Center. McKinney or Wiegert.. one of them can hold down a guard position.

That leaves us needing one guard and one right tackle.. at least. Both can be had in the draft... and that would be the cheapest answer. And probably the best answer for us in the long run as well.

GoBlue
01-03-2006, 08:15 PM
I would love to dump McKinney and several million in the process, but if he's willing to restructure his deal, he's our best LG. At 2 million or less I'd keep him.

Washington must go.
If Wade is really on the books for the much $$$, that's a bigger CC blunder than Buchanon.

UGA
01-03-2006, 08:17 PM
You cant just throw every olineman we have into the "they suck" bag and chunk em in a river.

Dont underestimate how bad this line is. Looking good relative to their counterparts mean little.

Even if you only wanted to sign say 3 new lineman (one decent free agent pickup, two draft picks) you have to cut 3 to fill them in. Who's it going to be? If we want bentley or hutchinson, you better clear out some decent money. if you want one of them with say a 2nd and 3rd round lineman draftees you better have money allocated. You cant just cut the basement level lineman to clear up money for solid lineman via free agency.

Unless your in the Mckinney, Wade, Weigert will be in charitable moods and cut half their pay camp... people are going to have to be cut to bring in new talent. Sometime you dont cut players based soley on talent, but their talent relative to their cap figure. Mckinney may be useful at gaurd, but at his age and cap figure why not use him to clear up money for these new lineman? Weigert is a waste of money, especially if you intent is to bring in a quality lineman. Washington is backup level, so why pay him 1 million when we can drop him for 100k?

But rest assured your not going to get Bentley and two solid draft picks by decidng to not resign Brown and Riley. This isnt fantasy land.

MorKnolle
01-03-2006, 08:24 PM
I would love to dump McKinney and several million in the process, but if he's willing to restructure his deal, he's our best LG. At 2 million or less I'd keep him.

Washington must go.
If Wade is really on the books for the much $$$, that's a bigger CC blunder than Buchanon.

If McKinney is willing to cut his salary at least in half then I'd be open to keeping him, as he is still an OK guard, but we still need to draft at least one OG and McKinney needs to go if he won't cut his salary substantially. Wiegert is still pretty goot at guard and only has one year left, so I say we keep him for that year. If we can bring in Bentley, we'd have Pitts, Wiegert, Bentley, McKinney, Wade as of this moment. I don't like Wade playing, he has a big contract but I don't think he should play OT anymore, at least as a starter, so we need to draft a OT that would be good enough to start next year and maybe move to LT in a year. I'd look to draft a OG to compete with McKinney for a starting spot and replace him in a year, and maybe add another OG in the 4th or 5th round to groom for a year and replace Wiegert in a year, and maybe look for a OC if we can't get Bentley.

UGA
01-03-2006, 08:29 PM
I would love to dump McKinney and several million in the process, but if he's willing to restructure his deal, he's our best LG. At 2 million or less I'd keep him.

Again, i dont see him taking a more then 50% cut in his contract. he stands to make 4.5 million if we keep him. Why would he take 2 million? He gets 800k to be released and could find a marginal contract elsewhere. Its easy for us to play hometown deal with these guys money, but if you stand to make 4.5 mil.. restructuring probably ends at 3million.. not 1.5


If Wade is really on the books for the much $$$, that's a bigger CC blunder than Buchanon.

He is, and its a major blow to the ability for us to revamp the line. He costs 6 million to cut and 5 million to keep. He has us by the you know whats, and he isnt going to restructure his deal at all. Why would he, or anyone else? Either way he is making 5 or 6 million and he doesnt need to bend for anyone. A player restructures his deal if he is either at the end of his career and might want to stay put (possibly Mckinney) or is making a killing as a star and will sacrifice a bit short term to see some more talent around him. Wade is neither. He is young, sitting on a contract he wont get again and will take his money and run with it. He may have a place in this league as a backup with a league minimum, which is all the more reason why hell want to get ALL of his money now and hope at some point hell either improve or dupe another team to pay him stupidly. I dont blame him, id do the exact same thing.

Jack Bauer
01-03-2006, 08:33 PM
He gets 800k to be released and could find a marginal contract elsewhere.

I may be mistaken because I leave the money details to others, but the money that would count against the cap would be the bonus he has already received. If he is cut, he will not receive any additional money. aj or MorKnolle correct me if I am wrong.

In addition McKinney has several business ties that would make it beneficial for him to remain in Houston. I think he is still a good guard (NOT center) and would be worth the restructuring to keep him around.

UGA
01-03-2006, 08:52 PM
I may be mistaken because I leave the money details to others, but the money that would count against the cap would be the bonus he has already received. If he is cut, he will not receive any additional money. aj or MorKnolle correct me if I am wrong.

In addition McKinney has several business ties that would make it beneficial for him to remain in Houston. I think he is still a good guard (NOT center) and would be worth the restructuring to keep him around.

he'll count 800k against the cap if we cut him. hell count 4.5 million against the cap if we keep him.

and only mckinney can say wether it is worth restructuring his deal. but if people think he is going to resign for 1.5 when he stands at 4.5 right now is crazy. thats not "restructuring".

Grid
01-03-2006, 08:54 PM
Cut Washington, Brown, and Weary and you have 3 spots open for new linemen. If ya want to keep Weary.. then either cut Wiegert, McKinney, or take one extra lineman.

We do not need to go to the extreme and cut every olineman. We have some good linemen.. we just dont have ENOUGH good linemen.

edo783
01-03-2006, 09:05 PM
but if people think he is going to resign for 1.5 when he stands at 4.5 right now is crazy. thats not "restructuring".

The answer to that is...Yes, or hit the bricks. He would be lucky to get that much (1.5 to 2 Mill) on the open market. We cut him, he gets didly squat unless he gets another gig with another team. We get charged 800K for the prorated bonus, but he gets zilch.

UGA
01-03-2006, 09:37 PM
Cut Washington, Brown, and Weary and you have 3 spots open for new linemen.

LOL

Its not just about having spots, its about having money to upgrade them. If it was as easy as dropping a league minimum guy and picking up a pro bowler we'd be set. but back in the real world...

UGA
01-03-2006, 09:44 PM
The answer to that is...Yes, or hit the bricks. He would be lucky to get that much (1.5 to 2 Mill) on the open market. We cut him, he gets didly squat unless he gets another gig with another team. We get charged 800K for the prorated bonus, but he gets zilch.

again, he will go elsewhere or retire before he entertains 1.5 from us when he is due 4.5

restructuring is not a 65% decrease in pay. he said he is open to restructuring his existing contract, not being bent over. he would probably retire before he took 1.5 from us. he's financially set anyway. his idea of restructuring is more along the lines of 3 mil this year with the additional 1.5 spread into another year. thats restructuring. he didnt say he was for "deducting".

UGA
01-03-2006, 09:45 PM
for the record id save all the hassle and just cut him. we free up a good amount of money by just parting ways.

Grid
01-03-2006, 10:15 PM
obviously the cap has to be considered. But McKinney is old and on his way out.. if not this season then probably next. Todd Wade will be cut as soon as it is cap friendly to do so.

We may have to take a big cap hit on our oline for a season or two.. but while we are trying to get a working Oline.. I dont think you can afford to cut your best linemen.

Besides.. at least 2 of our new Olinemen would be rookies and their contract can be manipulated to fit the budget for the first 2-3 seasons. And more than one Olineman would probably be willing to renegotiate his contract to free up some space when we need it.

sprtsfanatic
01-03-2006, 10:19 PM
I'm all for cutting Mckinney...I've been wanting him gone for the past 2 yrs now. On another note...since the center position has been brought up several times in this post....what do y'all think about drafting Eslinger from MN (ofcourse after landing Bentley in FA from NO) and having him learn the ropes from Bentley and how far down do you think he could slip in the draft?

Grid
01-03-2006, 10:25 PM
I think if we sign Bentley.. we dont need another Center. Bentley and Hodgdon is enough depth there. Especially if we hold onto McKinney to play guard.

I really want to see us get a tackle that slides to #33..and then pick up a good guard like Max Jean-Gilles.. but Jean-Gilles will probably be gone by the time our pick comes up at #65.. so we might be forced to either pass on him, or package our two 3rds to move back into the second and grab him.

UGA
01-03-2006, 10:31 PM
obviously the cap has to be considered. But McKinney is old and on his way out.. if not this season then probably next.

What does that have to do with us this year and our ability to make solid decision for the future?

Todd Wade will be cut as soon as it is cap friendly to do so.

You cant be serious... im sure that hasnt crossed anyones mind until now

We may have to take a big cap hit on our oline for a season or two.. but while we are trying to get a working Oline.. I dont think you can afford to cut your best linemen.

We dont have "best" linemen. We have a couple that are better then the other slugs. We have a horrible line, and your not accepting it. Reshuffling second rate players isnt going to help, and weve tried that before.

And more than one Olineman would probably be willing to renegotiate his contract to free up some space when we need it.

yeah because we all know people love to give up money they have coming to them. are you serious dude? its not a players job to adjust his contract to the teams need, its the teams responsibility to sign contracts that represent the talent level of said player. if they dont, then its the teams job to make sound decisions and cut ties with said players when their talent or cap hit hurt the team.

michaelm
01-03-2006, 10:33 PM
I say we cut McKinney.
He may decide to shop around, and if offers are not good he may resign with us for substantially less. He may opt for retirement, but if he signs a one year deal in the $1mil +or- range, he may be worth having around.

Grid
01-03-2006, 10:45 PM
Quit being such a pessimist and try to see the whole picture.

What does that have to do with us this year and our ability to make solid decision for the future?

Because we wont have his cap hit on the books too much longer. If we can squeeze everyone in for another season, he will probably be retiring or moving on next year, and that will give us some more leeway.

You cant be serious...

uh..yah..i am. Do you want to explain that comment or are you just saying that to be disagreeable? Why wouldnt we cut Wade? What has he done to earn his pay?

We dont have "best" linemen. We have a couple that are better then the other slugs. We have a horrible line, and your not accepting it. Reshuffling second rate players isnt going to help, and weve tried that before.

Yah.. Steve Foley sucked too huh? We do have BEST linemen.. Pitts would be a starter on any team in the league. But that isnt what i meant by best linemen anyway.. when I said best linemen..i meant OUR best linemen.. meaning you dont cut everyone on the line because there is no freakin way that we could replace all of them with more talented players. I know that to the ignorant onlooker, you would prefer to see us fire the whole line just to be spiteful, but that would NOT be in the best interest of the team.. and it takes a blind man to not see that we have some players on our line that are starter material.

As for reshuffling not working before.. our whole coaching staff wasnt working... so im not going to lay the blame entirely on the line when so many of our other problems can be traced back to the coaches.

Wake up. Pitts is a great lineman and a more than servicable LT. Hodgdon looked very good at Center when he was in, and I think we could start him next season. He may not quite be 100% ready to start, but I think he could handle it.

McKinney has NEVER BEEN A CENTER. We made him a Center. Guard and Center are two completely different positions and McKinney did NOT look bad when he played Guard. Wiegert also didnt look bad at guard. One of these two guys should be good enough to take either the RG or LG spot.

That leaves TWO positions that need filling.. one Guard..and the RT spot. You, im sure, think that Wand is a bust.. but ask some of the knowledgeable fans around here and you will find that most everyone agrees that he did not get a fair look and they would like to see how he looks at RT. So, if Wand manages to become our starting RT, then that leaves only ONE guard position to fill.. and the rest is depth. I wouldnt exactly call that reshuffling. That is putting in one rookie, moving one player to his natural position, and giving an honest look at a player that didnt look terrible at LT. I wouldnt call that "reshuffling" I would call that "refining" and "intelligent use of your existing talent"

yeah because we all know people love to give up money they have coming to them. are you serious dude? its not a players job to adjust his contract to the teams need, its the teams responsibility to sign contracts that represent the talent level of said player. if they dont, then its the teams job to make sound decisions and cut ties with said players when their talent or cap hit hurt the team

then why do players renegotiate their contracts every offseason? Ill tell you why.. because players want to win.. or because they didnt live up to expectations and dont want to be cut.. or, most importantly, because it doesnt hurt them to do so.

If a player is going to make 9 million over the next three seasons.. 3 million each year.. it does not hurt him to renegotiate and take 2 million this year.. 2 million next year.. and 5 million in guaranteed money in the 3rd year. All he is doing is delaying his paycheck in order to help the team bring in the talent they need to compete. MANY players are willing to do renegotiating like that.