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View Full Version : Lets talk about O-linemen. How much do you know?


LBC_Justin
01-02-2006, 09:08 PM
D'Brickashaw Ferguson. I keep hearing the name. He is the top O-lineman prospect.

Has anyone actually seen a single Virginia game this year? I have not. I have not seen him play a single down. Even if I did I would not exactly know how to grade an O-lineman.

In last years draft everyone said that it was very weak for O-linemen but that the 06' draft was going to be loaded with great players that those positions.

Is this draft that deep with O-linemen? Is D'Brickashaw Ferguson a SURE thing?

I live in SoCal and have seen almost every USC game. I know Reggie Bush is going to be a NFL star. No doubt about it. If we do draft him in a few years you won't remember DD's name. I will have no regrets if we draft him.

But with that said I want the Texans to do what is best for the team. I am interested in exploring all options. I just want us to win and I realize the people making the decision know a lot more than I do.(hopefully)

big homey
01-02-2006, 09:17 PM
I haven't watch any Virginia games either, but I hear that his hype is more about potential than anything. Apparently he's undersized, but is a top-notch pass blocker and average run blocker. I also heard that he lacks the "mean streak" most elite linemen have.

I don't think tackle is our biggest need anyway.

ArlingtonTexan
01-02-2006, 09:21 PM
Here is a thread from Virginia's bowl game

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=16269

JDizzle
01-02-2006, 09:29 PM
Put it on ABC and watch the Sugar Bowl. Max Jean-Gilles is having a nice game so far individually. Maybe the Dogs will get blown out and his stock will fall a bit? It could happen.

LBC_Justin
01-02-2006, 09:34 PM
Here is a thread from Virginia's bowl game

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=16269

Thank you.

I listen to Sirius NFL Radio for hours every day. (I spend way too much time in my car.) They have some great NFL guys and i respect most of their opinions (with the exception of Shannon Sharpe).

Pat Kirwan (who's oppinion I respect the most and whos oppinion almost always makes sense. http://www.nfl.com/writers/kirwan), he claims that many many first round OT bust and that that position is often a long shot and that players are often not equal to their hype.

This seems to be the case with D'brick

YoungTexanFan
01-02-2006, 09:47 PM
Thank you.

I listen to Sirius NFL Radio for hours every day. (I spend way too much time in my car.) They have some great NFL guys and i respect most of their opinions (with the exception of Shannon Sharpe).

Pat Kirwan (who's oppinion I respect the most and whos oppinion almost always makes sense. http://www.nfl.com/writers/kirwan), he claims that many many first round OT bust and that that position is often a long shot and that players are often not equal to their hype.

This seems to be the case with D'brick

there was a thread going a while back, showing the top RB and OT in each class and how they compared at their respective position.

I'm going to spoil it for you and tell you that WAY more OT's were pro-bowl, fall of fame when career ends kinda guys, and WAY more RB's were BUST.

however, if a mod would pull that thread up for documentation, that would be splendid.

I would also reconsider who I trust on that station if that is the info they are feeding you, and he is their "best" guy. Also, if Sharpe is even on it, you know it has to be sub-par.

Carr Bombed
01-02-2006, 09:50 PM
So far Gilles has been dominant.

MorKnolle
01-02-2006, 09:56 PM
If I'm not mistaken Gilles is projected as more of a OG in the NFL than an OT and would therefore be fairly likely to fall to the 2nd round. We definitely need help with our interior line but we also need one more OT as well. Here are some of the top OT prospects in this years' draft (info from www.nfldraftcountdown.com and is in order or their positional rankings which may or may not be outdated and not 100% accruate):
OT:
D'Brickashaw Ferguson 6-5, 295 lbs. Virginia
Eric Winston 6-7, 312 lbs. Miami
Winston Justice 6-6, 300 lbs. USC
Marcus McNeill 6-9, 338 lbs. Auburn
Jonathan Scott 6-7, 310 lbs. Texas
Daryn Colledge 6-5, 298 lbs. Boise St.
Jeremy Trueblood 6-9, 330 lbs. Boston College
Andrew Whitworth 6-7, 322 lbs. LSU
Ryan O'Callaghan 6-7, 340 lbs. California

OG:
Max Jean-Gilles 6-4, 340 lbs. Georgia
Davin Joseph 6-3, 312 lbs. Oklahoma
Charles Spencer 6-5, 330 lbs. Pittsburgh
Jason Spitz 6-4, 308 lbs. Louisville
Mark Setterstrom 6-3, 295 lbs. Minnesota
Taitusi Lutui 6-6, 370 lbs. USC
Will Allen 6-6, 315 lbs. Texas

OC:
Greg Eslinger 6-3, 285 lbs. Minnesota
Nick Mangold 6-4, 290 lbs. Ohio St.
Ryan Cook 6-7, 320 lbs. New Mexico

I haven't watched a whole lot of college football this year and have seen even less of most of these OLinemen so I don't have much of an analysis on them as of this moment, but this is a list of some of the top prospects according to NFL scouting websites. Ferguson and Winston are the two that I have actually seen some of their games and made it a point to watch them, and between them I prefer Eric Winston, but I'm waiting until after the combine and pro days and all that to make my final decision on who I like best among them and what direction I think the Texans should/will go in the draft.

Carr Bombed
01-02-2006, 10:00 PM
He looks pretty versitile to me and can probably be shifted to any of our interior line spots. Turn on the game and watch him. If some how he slips we need to grab him.

YoungTexanFan
01-02-2006, 10:00 PM
If I'm not mistaken Gilles is projected as more of a OG in the NFL than an OT and would therefore be fairly likely to fall to the 2nd round. We definitely need help with our interior line but we also need one more OT as well.

If he were only an OT, he would still be a second round at the earliest. Too many others rate higher at OT. OG is a second round position.

ArlingtonTexan
01-02-2006, 10:02 PM
there was a thread going a while back, showing the top RB and OT in each class and how they compared at their respective position.

I'm going to spoil it for you and tell you that WAY more OT's were pro-bowl, fall of fame when career ends kinda guys, and WAY more RB's were BUST.

however, if a mod would pull that thread up for documentation, that would be splendid.

I would also reconsider who I trust on that station if that is the info they are feeding you, and he is their "best" guy. Also, if Sharpe is even on it, you know it has to be sub-par.

not sure if this is it

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=14858&highlight=round+offensive+linemen

JDizzle
01-02-2006, 10:13 PM
If I'm not mistaken Gilles is projected as more of a OG in the NFL than an OT and would therefore be fairly likely to fall to the 2nd round. We definitely need help with our interior line but we also need one more OT as well. Here are some of the top OT prospects in this years' draft (info from www.nfldraftcountdown.com and is in order or their positional rankings which may or may not be outdated and not 100% accurate.

Did I say we should plug him in at Tackle? I'm aware he's a guard, and he's looking like a pretty good one at that. I'm not so sure that Ferguson would be an upgrade over Pitts at LT anyways, and I really think we can pick up a stud guard in round 2, leaving round 1 open for a defensive stud or Reggie Bush.

YoungTexanFan
01-02-2006, 10:16 PM
not sure if this is it

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=14858&highlight=round+offensive+linemen

no, but that was a pretty close try. It was going back at least 10 years.

Scooter 1984
01-02-2006, 10:21 PM
I'm seeing Marcus McNeil being mentioned with DBrick in some discussions. What's everyone's opinion of him? I haven't seen him play.

ArlingtonTexan
01-02-2006, 10:24 PM
Thank you.

I listen to Sirius NFL Radio for hours every day. (I spend way too much time in my car.) They have some great NFL guys and i respect most of their opinions (with the exception of Shannon Sharpe).

Pat Kirwan (who's oppinion I respect the most and whos oppinion almost always makes sense. http://www.nfl.com/writers/kirwan), he claims that many many first round OT bust and that that position is often a long shot and that players are often not equal to their hype.

This seems to be the case with D'brick

Ferguson is a good player with potential to be more dominate than he plays currently. He has great foot work and long arms staying in front of his man, but does have some questions that would have me worried about drafting him in like the top 5.

big homey
01-02-2006, 10:27 PM
there was a thread going a while back, showing the top RB and OT in each class and how they compared at their respective position.

I'm going to spoil it for you and tell you that WAY more OT's were pro-bowl, fall of fame when career ends kinda guys, and WAY more RB's were BUST.

however, if a mod would pull that thread up for documentation, that would be splendid.

I would also reconsider who I trust on that station if that is the info they are feeding you, and he is their "best" guy. Also, if Sharpe is even on it, you know it has to be sub-par.
I think that thread was by Jerek, talking about several past drafts' top 10's, and who broke out or just broke.

YoungTexanFan
01-02-2006, 10:31 PM
I'm seeing Marcus McNeil being mentioned with DBrick in some discussions. What's everyone's opinion of him? I haven't seen him play.

McNeil is not in the same elite class. He is strictly a RT only and does not posess the finess needed. He is, however, a mammoth of a man. He excells at run blocking, and holds in own in pass pro. He has a tendancy to stand to erect at times, allowing defenders to get into his chest. His arms are not long enough either.

ArlingtonTexan
01-02-2006, 10:32 PM
I think that thread was by Jerek, talking about several past drafts' top 10's, and who broke out or just broke.

I liked that one too. I believe this is that creature.

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=15430

MorKnolle
01-02-2006, 10:33 PM
Did I say we should plug him in at Tackle? I'm aware he's a guard, and he's looking like a pretty good one at that. I'm not so sure that Ferguson would be an upgrade over Pitts at LT anyways, and I really think we can pick up a stud guard in round 2, leaving round 1 open for a defensive stud or Reggie Bush.

No, I was saying that he should be an OG and would likely be available in the 2nd round so we could use our 1st rounder elsewhere, but as I said we need another OT too so I would probably look for a RT/future LT in the 1st round after trading down out of the #1 pick.

beerlover
01-02-2006, 10:41 PM
If I'm not mistaken Gilles is projected as more of a OG in the NFL than an OT and would therefore be fairly likely to fall to the 2nd round.

as of right now I have him slotted to the Ravens with the 13th overall pick, I'm projecting him as the Ravens new Left Guard, right next to Jonathan Ogdon :brickwall ouch'e my head hurts :dangit:

MorKnolle
01-02-2006, 10:43 PM
as of right now I have him slotted to the Ravens with the 13th overall pick, I'm projecting him as the Ravens new Left Guard, right next to Jonathan Ogdon :brickwall ouch'e my head hurts :dangit:

Gilles looks good but interior linemen don't usually go real high, so I don't think he'd go there, but it is always a possibility.

Carr Bombed
01-02-2006, 10:49 PM
Gilles looks good but interior linemen don't usually go real high, so I don't think he'd go there, but it is always a possibility.are you watching the sugar bowl right now. I don't know what a career game looks like for a Olineman, but Gilles just made a unbelievable play. Turn the game on and watch he is a player and whoever gets him is getting a steal.

Carr Bombed
01-02-2006, 10:51 PM
He is embarrassing DLman

AUSTexan
01-02-2006, 10:57 PM
Based on this game and the other I saw Gilles play, if he's there when the 2nd round begins... we take him and consider it a steal! He's a monster, as BOMB and I just observed live in the other thread.

I think some of the decent LT's will fall until the 3rd round this year since it's so deep... especially if more of the juniors come out.

AUSTexan
01-02-2006, 11:03 PM
Oh, and I watched Winston closely in the Miami bowl game last week, and he did NOT look dominating at all. In fact, he looked off balance many times in pass protection, and gave up several QB hurries because he shifted his weight too much on a fake speed rush and couldn't get back for the spin back inside. He might just have had a bad game (this is the only time I've seen him), but he certainly didn't remind me of Ogden in college...

Maybe if he fell into the 2nd or 3rd rounds he'd be worth it.................... Or maybe I'm completely wrong, which is, of course a possibility.

YoungTexanFan
01-02-2006, 11:04 PM
man, slayton (sp) the rb from vTech is killing them. That guys is a better version of bush. He has his moves, but can run inside. He is on my "to watch list" now.

Carr Bombed
01-02-2006, 11:04 PM
He looks like he could play just about any interior position and also right tackle at 340 pounds. He drives the defender back on every run play and on passing downs, once he get his hands on the defender its over.

Carr Bombed
01-02-2006, 11:07 PM
This has been a very good game and anybody not watching it is missing out. I never thought georgia would have a chance starting out 28-0

AUSTexan
01-02-2006, 11:12 PM
This has been a very good game and anybody not watching it is missing out. I never thought georgia would have a chance starting out 28-0

Agreed. If it wouldn't have been for Gilles & Pope, I'd have gone to bed after the first Q, too!

ArlingtonTexan
01-02-2006, 11:14 PM
there was a thread going a while back, showing the top RB and OT in each class and how they compared at their respective position.

I'm going to spoil it for you and tell you that WAY more OT's were pro-bowl, fall of fame when career ends kinda guys, and WAY more RB's were BUST.

however, if a mod would pull that thread up for documentation, that would be splendid.

I would also reconsider who I trust on that station if that is the info they are feeding you, and he is their "best" guy. Also, if Sharpe is even on it, you know it has to be sub-par.


Found and stuck to the top of this forum.

Scooter 1984
01-02-2006, 11:14 PM
Agreed. If it wouldn't have been for Gilles & Pope, I'd have gone to bed after the first Q, too!

Did you see Pope toss that defender to the ground after he forced the fumble? The guy drove Pope back and had him wrapped up and Pope just slung him to the ground. That guy is freakin' tall.

LBC_Justin
01-02-2006, 11:15 PM
there was a thread going a while back, showing the top RB and OT in each class and how they compared at their respective position.

I'm going to spoil it for you and tell you that WAY more OT's were pro-bowl, fall of fame when career ends kinda guys, and WAY more RB's were BUST.

however, if a mod would pull that thread up for documentation, that would be splendid.

I would also reconsider who I trust on that station if that is the info they are feeding you, and he is their "best" guy. Also, if Sharpe is even on it, you know it has to be sub-par.
Here is the problem. O-linemen don't have individual stats. So they usually make it to the probowl based on reputation for the most part. So Probowls isn't the a very good way of telling who is really good. Example Jonathon Ogden had a very subpar year and he is going to the probowl. Reputation is everything.

http://www.drafthistory.com/hof/hof_position.html
This has all the HoF players and the round they were drafted in.
This was interesting:
Looking at the stats since the draft was instituted
RB in the HoF: 21 of 27 were first round draft picks
O-lineman in the HoF: 16 of 33 were first round draft picks
more specifically: Tackle: 6 of 19, Guard: 6 of 7, Center: 4 of 7

Hmmm this has gotten me really curious.
Draft History on Tackles --> http://www.drafthistory.com/positions/t.html
Draft History on Gaurds --> http://www.drafthistory.com/positions/g.html
Draft History on Centers --> http://www.drafthistory.com/positions/c.html

I have to confess, I have no way of telling who is good and who isn't. Other than seeing how well the team is able to run the ball and protect the passer in general. I don't spend a lot of time watching the play of individual lineman. Yes, I notice the stand outs but I usually follow the ball.

Niftly little web site to do some draft research.
http://www.drafthistory.com/

TexanFanInDenver
01-02-2006, 11:24 PM
Check out this mock and see where they think gilles is going!

http://condraft.com/mock.php?PHPSESSID=490f9b7b4c1ebabbaceebd7f2fb42dc 0&r=2

Carr Bombed
01-02-2006, 11:41 PM
God georgia has alot of heart I hope this game goes into overtime.

beerlover
01-03-2006, 12:09 AM
Check out this mock and see where they think gilles is going!

http://condraft.com/mock.php?PHPSESSID=490f9b7b4c1ebabbaceebd7f2fb42dc 0&r=2

yeah thanks for the link, some good stuff fairly close if you take out all the underclassman that its filled up with, Young, Holmes, White, Bing, Parham, McClover & Willis just to name a few, none of which has yet declared for the draft. if they do I will make adjustments to where Gilles among others fall, but as of this moment I belive my mock is at least more accurate :twocents:

awtysst
01-03-2006, 12:14 AM
as of right now I have him slotted to the Ravens with the 13th overall pick, I'm projecting him as the Ravens new Left Guard, right next to Jonathan Ogdon :brickwall ouch'e my head hurts :dangit:

Wow. you have him going that high? I would think he would be a later first rounder such as 25+. Typically guards do not go that high. Do you grade him as possibly the greatest guard prospect to ever hit the NFL? Also isnt he already 350 lbs? From what i understand, nfl lineman usually gain weight when they hit the NFL. If this guy is already 350, how high will he go? 375? I need to read more about this guy. I am sure he is very good, but there are some issues that trouble me.

tulexan
01-03-2006, 12:23 AM
I thought that Jean Gilles played pretty well today, but I did notice that there were a few plays where he did absolutely nothing and just stood around not blocking anyone.

I have been saying for a long time that we should draft him in the second round and I still believe that we should. I still think that we should trade both of our 3rd's and get back into the 2nd to get Leonard Pope if available.

Like Dan Reeves, I don't think that our talent is that bad. I know a lot of you think that our team is riddled with holes on both sides of the ball, but there aren't as many as you think.

We should and will do the smart thing and draft Reggie Bush in the first and address the line in the second because our team lacks playmakers and he is the best.

J-Storm
01-03-2006, 06:11 AM
I thought that Jean Gilles played pretty well today, but I did notice that there were a few plays where he did absolutely nothing and just stood around not blocking anyone.

I have been saying for a long time that we should draft him in the second round and I still believe that we should. I still think that we should trade both of our 3rd's and get back into the 2nd to get Leonard Pope if available.

Like Dan Reeves, I don't think that our talent is that bad. I know a lot of you think that our team is riddled with holes on both sides of the ball, but there aren't as many as you think.

We should and will do the smart thing and draft Reggie Bush in the first and address the line in the second because our team lacks playmakers and he is the best.

I agree on getting Jean-Gillies and Pope if we possibly could as well. I thought they both played rather well given the RB's couldn't hold onto the ball. But I would probably rather switch the Bush pick for a trade down to get AJ Hawk. But if we couldn't manage to work that out logically and still got 2/3 (plus Bush like most are saying we should) then I could live with that... as long as they looked at Nick Mangold also!

Youngstown Colt
01-03-2006, 09:14 AM
man, slayton (sp) the rb from vTech is killing them. That guys is a better version of bush. He has his moves, but can run inside. He is on my "to watch list" now.Yeah, this guy is far better than Bush. (where's the eye rolling smiley)

And everyone's favorite o-lineman on this board, Joe Thomas, was injured yesterday on DEFENSE. Kindof strange.

beerlover
01-03-2006, 10:31 AM
Wow. you have him going that high? I would think he would be a later first rounder such as 25+. Typically guards do not go that high. Do you grade him as possibly the greatest guard prospect to ever hit the NFL? Also isnt he already 350 lbs? From what i understand, nfl lineman usually gain weight when they hit the NFL. If this guy is already 350, how high will he go? 375? I need to read more about this guy. I am sure he is very good, but there are some issues that trouble me.

Max Jean-Gilles is the best pure guard I've seen in the last three drafts, I'll go that far. that being said going this high is still dependant of the team who drafts him to fill a need & has the luxury to draft for need over BPA. if more of the highly coveted underclassman declare then the Ravens would most likely go with the bpa & if they go that route its very likely he slips at least into the 20's.

Look at last years draft (2005) Chris Spencer #26th to Seattle, Logan Mankins #32 New England & #33 David Baas 49er's. The previous year (2004)Philly drafted Shawn Andrews (who was the #1 inside tackle (RT/RG) a top 10 pick until the end of season when he developed a mystery injury, could not keep the weight off and no showed for workouts. he still went #16 to the Eagles because they had a need, now he is the starting RG. Vernon Carey #19 (Miami U) went to the Dolphins as a guard and winded up playing RT replacing the Todd Wade who they lost to the Texans in a big contract free agency move. Also #34 Chris Snee (Boston College) to the Giants & now starts @ RG.

All solid picks & now players for the teams who drafted them, but all where drafted to address needs not neccassarily the bpa. where you draw the line is the question but as far as a pure NFL guard, not a tweener anywhere else Max Jean-Gilles is the type of player who fills a need for a team who needs him, draft him put him in the starting lineup & forget about it again for the next 10 years.

Coach C.
01-03-2006, 10:40 AM
Watched the game and Gilles is a beast. He can't play tackle but he is a monster road grading RG. He is ok in pass protection, but I am not overly impressed. There are definately better pass protecting guards out there mainly Davin Joseph comes to mind, but Joseph is not even close to this behemoth in run-blocking. I think Davin Joseph will go higher, but if Gilles can stay in shape he will have a tremendous career. Also, Slayton is that kid coming out in the draft, cause if so he is my 5th round pick for sure.

tulexan
01-03-2006, 10:43 AM
Slayton is a freshman.

MorKnolle
01-03-2006, 10:55 AM
I thought that Jean Gilles played pretty well today, but I did notice that there were a few plays where he did absolutely nothing and just stood around not blocking anyone.

I have been saying for a long time that we should draft him in the second round and I still believe that we should. I still think that we should trade both of our 3rd's and get back into the 2nd to get Leonard Pope if available.

Like Dan Reeves, I don't think that our talent is that bad. I know a lot of you think that our team is riddled with holes on both sides of the ball, but there aren't as many as you think.

We should and will do the smart thing and draft Reggie Bush in the first and address the line in the second because our team lacks playmakers and he is the best.

Jean-Gilles would be a nice pickup in the 2nd round, or one of the other top interior OL, we definitely need help there. I'm not a real big fan of trading two 3rd round picks to get a TE though, I think Marcellus Rivers was beginning to show that he can be a good TE and I'd give Joppru one more chance, plus there are a couple decent TEs in free agency, so I'd prefer to hold off on drafting a TE, especially using two picks to do it. If our current guys won't work out for our new offensive scheme, then Olsen from Miami will be available next year and we can look to get him.

tulexan
01-03-2006, 10:57 AM
I'll give you that. We should give Bennie one more chance and who knows, maybe he will turn out to be a good TE.

MorKnolle
01-03-2006, 11:09 AM
I admit I want to see more out of our TEs, but Joppru was supposed to be something good coming out of college and seeing Rivers the last month or two has given me hope in him, plus I think our main problem with TEs this year was our offensive scheme. I think we have other holes that are more important than bringing in a new TE with a high draft pick, plus Randy McMichael, Billy Miller, and some other TEs are available in free agency if our new coach decides he doesn't like our current guys, and Olsen and other will be available next year if any TE we have doesn't make it after a year with our new coach.

tulexan
01-03-2006, 11:10 AM
If Bennie doesn't work out, I wouldn't mind seeing Randy McMichael. That guy is a great redzone target.

Coach C.
01-03-2006, 11:13 AM
I admit I want to see more out of our TEs, but Joppru was supposed to be something good coming out of college and seeing Rivers the last month or two has given me hope in him, plus I think our main problem with TEs this year was our offensive scheme. I think we have other holes that are more important than bringing in a new TE with a high draft pick, plus Randy McMichael, Billy Miller, and some other TEs are available in free agency if our new coach decides he doesn't like our current guys, and Olsen and other will be available next year if any TE we have doesn't make it after a year with our new coach.

Agree, not sure if McMichael gets free, but Teyo Johnson, Chris Baker, and some other young receiving TE are available. Plus in the late rounds there will be some options like David Thomas from UT.

awtysst
01-03-2006, 12:24 PM
Max Jean-Gilles is the best pure guard I've seen in the last three drafts, I'll go that far. that being said going this high is still dependant of the team who drafts him to fill a need & has the luxury to draft for need over BPA. if more of the highly coveted underclassman declare then the Ravens would most likely go with the bpa & if they go that route its very likely he slips at least into the 20's.

Look at last years draft (2005) Chris Spencer #26th to Seattle, Logan Mankins #32 New England & #33 David Baas 49er's. The previous year (2004)Philly drafted Shawn Andrews (who was the #1 inside tackle (RT/RG) a top 10 pick until the end of season when he developed a mystery injury, could not keep the weight off and no showed for workouts. he still went #16 to the Eagles because they had a need, now he is the starting RG. Vernon Carey #19 (Miami U) went to the Dolphins as a guard and winded up playing RT replacing the Todd Wade who they lost to the Texans in a big contract free agency move. Also #34 Chris Snee (Boston College) to the Giants & now starts @ RG.

All solid picks & now players for the teams who drafted them, but all where drafted to address needs not neccassarily the bpa. where you draw the line is the question but as far as a pure NFL guard, not a tweener anywhere else Max Jean-Gilles is the type of player who fills a need for a team who needs him, draft him put him in the starting lineup & forget about it again for the next 10 years.


Ok. But what is your opinion of Davin jospeh? You refer to Max as the best pure guard in the last three years, but what is your opinion of Jospeh? In fact in a recent mock I saw which seemed well thought out Joseph was taken before Max:)