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View Full Version : Chris Simms v Dave Ragone


Big B Texan Fan
12-30-2005, 09:02 AM
Dave Ragone was drafted before Chris Simms by a handful of pix in the 3rd round of our 2nd draft. Not that this is any indicator but Dave has gone over to Europe and shattered some records. If Dave were to come out to the NFL a year earlier, many say he would've been a 1st round talent. Yet he festers on our depth chart @ #3.

Chris Simms gets the starting nod due to an injured Greiese (right?). He is doing more than managing games not to lose. He's really getting a chance chunk it around the park a little. The Bucs are in the playoff hunt too. He will be the starter next year if they make the playoffs and actually win a game or 2.

Now I'm not saying that we should've taken him. But we should start looking at Ragone a little harder this upcoming off-season. Forget all this talk that he was drafted to be traded, if Carr gets hit funny (which he has the chance about 60-70 times a season) then we'll be in the same boat.

Just wanted your thoughts though on the subject.

uhcougar08
12-30-2005, 09:14 AM
At the least, as a fan, I have always wanted to see what Ragone does in a real game. Im not saying he is better than Carr, because we have never seen him play. I personally think it is a shame not to see what this kid can do.

HeartofHouston
12-30-2005, 09:19 AM
I think every QB on the roster should be given a shot to go out there and see what they can do I think Ragone had a shot a year or two ago but since then he's gone to NFLE and got some much need experience on the field. I say that we take a close look at him this offseason..

I not sure what his contracts looks like but we should either trade him now or give him a good look.. Hopefully the new coaching staff will.. make sure that EVERYBODY is fighting for their job.. so that IF and that's a big IF he's better than Carr then he's put on the field where he belongs..

Coach C.
12-30-2005, 09:51 AM
Ragone is 3 on the depth chart for a reason people. He will likely be the backup next year and who knows maybe he will get some PT, but I doubt it. Hopefully next year we can swindle someone into taking this kid off our hands.

eriadoc
12-30-2005, 09:57 AM
Guys like Troy Evans, Shantee Orr, Domanick Davis, Antwaan Peek, and Derrick Armstrong have shown enough of themselves on the practice field to put themselves in a position to see real playing time. These are all guys that were not drafted to be starters (maybe Peek), but they showed the necessary skills, work ethic, and determination on the practice field to put themselves in position to catch the coaches' eyes. Ragone has been on our practice field for quite some time. As is the case with Armstrong, the coaches prefer to play someone else ahead of him (Bradford in DA's case, Carr in Ragone's), but still ... if he'd been impressing on the practice field, don't you think the coaches would have at least moved him to second string?

Frills
12-30-2005, 10:05 AM
Simms has shown what he can do in big games in college...65-13

Hervoyel
12-30-2005, 10:11 AM
but still ... if he'd been impressing on the practice field, don't you think the coaches would have at least moved him to second string?

I don't know really. It's hard to figure out what our coaches are thinking at any given time.

Was Victor Riley "impressive" on the practice field? He sure grabbed that starting LT spot right away. One season Wand showed enough to be given the job and by the next training camp he was done. What didn't the coaches see in his case? After seeing Riley play in games I find it almost impossible to believe that he impressed anyone in practice.

Who knows what our staff thinks at any given time? I can find no rhyme or reason to much of what they do. It all seems very random to me. Ragone I'd like to see play of course but I don't want to see it happen until next year when we're in a different offense and a staff of (hopefully) competent coaches are making decisions.

Honoring Earl 34
12-30-2005, 10:15 AM
:yahoo: I think the Texans brass believe in being consistant . You don't get to 2-13 without keeping the nose to the grindstone and marching Carr out there come hell or highwater . Even if its not Carr's fault you would think they'd tried something different ... I think this goes back to being to loyal at times .

Ragones gotta better gig than Joppru , Dave does 'nt have to rehab . He's a fist day pick who talks to Hollings , Morency and Wand about what their going to do if they get to play again .

eriadoc
12-30-2005, 10:15 AM
I don't know really. It's hard to figure out what our coaches are thinking at any given time.

Was Victor Riley "impressive" on the practice field? He sure grabbed that starting LT spot right away. One season Wand showed enough to be given the job and by the next training camp he was done. What didn't the coaches see in his case? After seeing Riley play in games I find it almost impossible to believe that he impressed anyone in practice.

Who knows what our staff thinks at any given time? I can find no rhyme or reason to much of what they do. It all seems very random to me. Ragone I'd like to see play of course but I don't want to see it happen until next year when we're in a different offense and a staff of (hopefully) competent coaches are making decisions.

According to the media who watched training camp practices, Riley was more impressive than Wand in practice. Maybe Riley had a moratorium on cheeseburgers at that time or something.

eriadoc
12-30-2005, 10:18 AM
Simms has shown what he can do in big games in college...65-13

I'm not a Texas alum and, aside from my interest in having a national championship in the state of Texas, I have no rooting interest for either UT or A&M. Simms didn't give up 65 points on his own. He had a horrendous game that day, but people really need to give it a rest, sheesh.

El Tejano
12-30-2005, 10:19 AM
I think we will probably see the end of Tony B. and Ragone will be the #2 going into training camp.

tsip
12-30-2005, 10:36 AM
Simms has shown what he can do in big games in college...65-13

In college, Ragone was Offensive Player of the Year 3 straight years without the talent that Simms had (Williams/Thomas/etc.) so that does not figure much into the equation. However, with all the problems we've had this year, Ragone should have gotten some reps---if, for nothing else, so we could see where he stands in terms of developement. Besides his success in Europe, he was also our most productive QB during pre-season.

Capers is his own worse enemy in the way he uses players--some, like Babin, he drafts to learn a position he never played in college--others, like Ragone, never see the light of day--finally, others like DD are over used in a scheme they are not physically suited for (power back) and get injured every year. And, the real problem with DD is that we don't need for him to carry the ball 25+ times a game because Wells and Morency can get results and lessen the burden on DD---but that's Capers, he subs freely on defense but not so with his skilled players on OF.

touttail
12-30-2005, 10:38 AM
Ragone is 3 on the depth chart for a reason people. He will likely be the backup next year and who knows maybe he will get some PT, but I doubt it. Hopefully next year we can swindle someone into taking this kid off our hands.

Even though he was NFL Europe's MVP, that's still not "our NFL". The calbre of players are alot less than the "real NFL".

Just curious Coach C, do you actually think they would sit Carr and give Ragone a chance? No way. The majority of the teams in the NFL would have sit Carr if they lost the games the Texans lost this season. Would like to see what he could do if given a chance.

Bobby 119C:brickwall

cuppacoffee
12-30-2005, 10:38 AM
I don't know really. It's hard to figure out what our coaches are thinking at any given time.

Was Victor Riley "impressive" on the practice field? He sure grabbed that starting LT spot right away. One season Wand showed enough to be given the job and by the next training camp he was done. What didn't the coaches see in his case? After seeing Riley play in games I find it almost impossible to believe that he impressed anyone in practice.

Who knows what our staff thinks at any given time? I can find no rhyme or reason to much of what they do. It all seems very random to me. Ragone I'd like to see play of course but I don't want to see it happen until next year when we're in a different offense and a staff of (hopefully) competent coaches are making decisions.

I'll give a big AMEN! to that.

touttail
12-30-2005, 10:42 AM
Davis, Wells, Morency...Why do we need another RB?
Frills you forgot Hollings!

Bobby 119C:brickwall

uhcougar08
12-30-2005, 12:56 PM
Ragone is 3 on the depth chart for a reason people. He will likely be the backup next year and who knows maybe he will get some PT, but I doubt it. Hopefully next year we can swindle someone into taking this kid off our hands.
This is the same depth chart that has been assembled by Capers and Casserly. Same ones that started Buc in front of anyone. I dont trust these guys on their talent evaluation, so until I see him play, I will be open for the thought of Ragone possibly being a better QB than anyone else who is starting.

Wharton
12-30-2005, 01:12 PM
Ragone has not capitalized on the handful of opportunities he has been given so far. Of coarse, these opportunities have been behind the same o-line that has allowed over 200 sacks in past four years so who really knows what he can do. Carr, until the last few games, has been stinkin up the joint so why not give him a shot at a full game. At this point, what could it hurt!

Coach C.
12-30-2005, 01:13 PM
You saw him play two years ago, hell you saw him in NFLE where he threw up lame duck balls that were good enough that sub-level NFL prospects could not make plays on, Hell you have saw him for 3 pre-seasons and he still has not inspired anyone. Come on people. I understand your hatred for Capers and Casserly and who they play, but Ragone is not and may not ever be the answer.

Hervoyel
12-30-2005, 02:09 PM
Ragone is very overrated. Go back to the Buff game this year; Carr's performance still makes him 5 times the QB Ragone ever will be. Ragone was good against 3rd stringers in NFL Europe, he was good against a weak conference he played in during college. RAGONE SUCKS.


I disagree. I want to see him play in a game against NFL first string talent with the same supporting cast that David Carr has. The only time we got to see Dave Ragone play QB here he had to start during his rookie year and his running game consisted of Tony Hollings. I can't bring myself to base my entire opinion of him on those two games. You apparently have no problem doing that.

He wasn't expected to be ready to play during his rookie season and he performed poorly. All things being equal he wasn't that far off of some of David Carr's 2002 games. He's less mobile but I saw a lot of the same confusion with maybe a little more rust than we saw on Carr in his first year.

As for his college conference I understand that C-USA is a weak conference. He did what he did at the college level. He then performed well in NFL Europe. All he's done is perform well at every level he's been given a reasonable chance to succeed at. I don't know what more you can ask of him.

eriadoc
12-30-2005, 02:21 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with you Herv; I just think that if he'd shown the necessary progression in practice, someone would have noticed and it would have been leaked by now. He would have either passed Banks on the depth chart or there would be press pushing for it all season. Ragone has largely been afterthought, aside from threads like this (which are based on nothing, really), which tells me he hasn't impressed anyone of consequence.

Obviously, I haven't seen him play anymore than any of you, so I have no more info and this is all speculation. I will add that Rohan Davey was NFLE MVP and he's not even in the NFL, I believe. He got cut this year in preseason and no one really even gave him a real chance at a #3 job. NFLE is really just a small step ahead of college.

Porky
12-30-2005, 02:23 PM
Ragone is going to be a career back-up. He's a slow, big lug. He's got a strong arm, but doesn't necessarily throw a pretty ball. If you guys wanted a south-paw Bledsoe, then Ragone is your guy. Ragone will never amount to anything because NFL Euro sucks, and is a chance for back-ups to actually play without having realy NFL players getting hurt. I really wish people would drop Ragone starting and getting a chance BS. It's annoying.

Did you even see him play in College? He is not slow. He is more mobile than Carr for crying out loud. You people slay me.

Ragone Scouting Reoprt (http://football.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fespn.go.com%2Fncf%2F columns%2Fdanielson%2F1435948.html)

Running Ability A-
Very, very strong. He's not afraid to run the ball and, as I've said about other guys, I like that he picks up first downs when he runs. Dave uses his running ability as a major weapon to make teams defend both parts of his game. His ability to run the ball has already been a huge advantage at the college level and will be perfect for the NFL.

Escape Ability B+
Even though he is a big man Dave is still nimble and he's tough when he runs the ball. It's hard to sack him with an arm tackle. You have to wrap him up. So while he's not a Michael Vick/Seneca Wallace kind of scrambler, his ability to avoid the sack gives him escape ability.

I also like this one too. I noticed in the pre-season, he was picking out his 2nd and 3rd option, something Carr hasn't been able to do in 4 yrs.

Locate 2nd Receiver
A-
Dave is very good at this and you can tell he came out of a good high school program at St. Ignatius in Cleveland. He's comfortable with putting five receivers out wide and has very good teachers in the Louisville program that demand he find different people. I also like the way he goes from one side of the field to the other.

cuppacoffee
12-30-2005, 02:53 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with you Herv; I just think that if he'd shown the necessary progression in practice, someone would have noticed and it would have been leaked by now. He would have either passed Banks on the depth chart or there would be press pushing for it all season. Ragone has largely been afterthought, aside from threads like this (which are based on nothing, really), which tells me he hasn't impressed anyone of consequence.

Obviously, I haven't seen him play anymore than any of you, so I have no more info and this is all speculation. I will add that Rohan Davey was NFLE MVP and he's not even in the NFL, I believe. He got cut this year in preseason and no one really even gave him a real chance at a #3 job. NFLE is really just a small step ahead of college.

I am not too sure this staff would notice a wart growing on the end of their nose. :twocents:

I am beginning to wonder if this staff has been trying to undercut Casserly all along.

How many players can you name that you wish would get some quality playing time?

Bet you can name a few Casserly brought in that were never given a decent shot in training camp.

How many made a good impression in camp and were cut nonetheless?..:penalty:

:coffee:

Porky
12-30-2005, 02:57 PM
First off, NFL Europe is about as strong as Division II. Secondly, how hard is it to succeed in NFL Europe. Blah.



Yes I saw him play in college. Wasn't impressed then. Secondly, those grades are given out as freely as candy. In fact, they are similar to two other QBs I've seen come out of college. Harrington and Leaf. In fact, Leaf, Harrington, and Ragone all had higher grades than Carr. Look how well they've all done.

Harrington and Ragone had higher grades than Carr? :ok:

I hear that those rubber walls are there for your own protection. Don't fear them, as they are your friends. :redtowel:

Porky
12-30-2005, 03:05 PM
Kiper Jr. and other Draft websites that I found had higher grades overall compared to Carr. Harrington was better than Carr in pretty much everything except arm strength. Ragone overall had higher grades as well. I'll look for them. I'm not crazy...the voices tell me so.

BTW - I'm just playin with ya. I'm sure there were some grades higher for each, but as a consenus, I don't think there is much doubt that Carr was rated slightly higher than Joey, and well ahead of Ragone. Even as a Jr. Ragone was expected to be a mid-late first, not a top 5 selection. If you can find one that rated him higher than Carr, I would like to see it.

Porky
12-30-2005, 03:41 PM
I for sure know that Harrington was rated higher. Kiper had a fullscreen graphic showing Joey with A's in pocket presence, throwing accuracy, decision making, an A- in I think physicallity, and a B in arm strength. Carr had A-s in those first four, and a A+ in arm strength.

Rated higher by one person? I'm sure some had him higher, but who was drafted higher? The consenus was Carr was the better prospect, and frankly that has proven out. While neither have lived up to their draft position yet, Carr is, has been, and will be, the better of the two. As to Ragone, I don't know of any legit source that had him higher rated than Carr.

billtxus
12-30-2005, 04:32 PM
I agree. Carr isn' t the problem. He called a decent first half against Arizona, not his fault Joe wanted to call the second half. He threw the ball fine against Jacksonville, not his fault that Pendry and Dom didn't put them in position to win.

I'll admit that Carr has looked pretty lame at times this year, but the more the season has gone on, and the more I've seen of lame play calling, bad strategy, etc, the more Im sure the problems rest more with the coaches than with the players. Add to this some bad choices like dumping Glenn to get Buchanon, and you've got this year's disaster.

Hervoyel
12-30-2005, 04:32 PM
First off, NFL Europe is about as strong as Division II. Secondly, how hard is it to succeed in NFL Europe. Blah.


Yes and we all know that it's impossible (Darrell Green) for Division II (Andre Reed) to produce quality (Greg Lloyd) players who (John Stallworth) are capable of playing in the NFL (Walter Payton, Jerry Rice).

Especially (Ken O'Brien) quarterbacks.

Yeah. "Blah"

Wharton
12-30-2005, 04:40 PM
Its subliminal man!!!!!!!!!

cuppacoffee
12-30-2005, 08:56 PM
Its subliminal man!!!!!!!!!

Whew!! That explains it. All this time I was thinking it was just BS. :)

Big B Texan Fan
12-30-2005, 09:25 PM
Ragone is very overrated. Go back to the Buff game this year; Carr's performance still makes him 5 times the QB Ragone ever will be. Ragone was good against 3rd stringers in NFL Europe, he was good against a weak conference he played in during college. RAGONE SUCKS.
Finally, I figured you out. You're David Carr. I always knew that the team members get on these boards but thought that at least you'd hide your identity a little better. Hey look, your secret is safe with me. I won't tell anyone.:fib

Here's a couple of hints when on these MB's:
a. Don't say Ragone sux, people might think you're scared of a little competition.
b. Don't defend your performance in the Bills game.......It sucked.
c. Don't dog on anyone's conference, your conference sucks too.

Oh and another thing. Don't mess with 300 lb D-linemen after a loss, you just might get your *** whipped.:twocents:

Anyway, I'll be :tv: Sunday. I'll be happy if you can lead your team to victory but if you feel as though you won't be able to do it, give Raggie a shot. Fake a headache, stomach-flu or something.

abbest
12-31-2005, 12:07 AM
Guys like Troy Evans, Shantee Orr, Domanick Davis, Antwaan Peek, and Derrick Armstrong have shown enough of themselves on the practice field to put themselves in a position to see real playing time. These are all guys that were not drafted to be starters (maybe Peek), but they showed the necessary skills, work ethic, and determination on the practice field to put themselves in position to catch the coaches' eyes. Ragone has been on our practice field for quite some time. As is the case with Armstrong, the coaches prefer to play someone else ahead of him (Bradford in DA's case, Carr in Ragone's), but still ... if he'd been impressing on the practice field, don't you think the coaches would have at least moved him to second string?Carr`s contract is way too much for him to be sitting on the bench. Tony Banks should have had more playing time this year as well as Ragone should have gotten some time on the field. With the playoffs out of reach why not? Simple McNair is not paying Carr to ride the bench.

Nighthawk
12-31-2005, 01:00 AM
The coaches would NOT let Ragone NEAR the field for the last 4 years. THey got their baby boy in as QB and sure don't want him having any competition. It's embarrassing. I say Carr is never more than a middlin' good QB and about Ragone--well, how could anyone have a clue? He tore up NFLE, but wait--that was lesser competition, but also different coaches. He played a game or two a couple years ago, but with 2nd stringers in key positions. I've been yelling all year to let us see him run two or three games, give him a chance to get his feet wet, dry 'em off, get 'em wet again. I'd say it's 2 to 1 he's as good as Carr, and even money he might be better.

Some yokel all the way up in this thread said (thoughtfully) that if the coaches had seen anything in practice they'd have put him. I've got a bridge to sell that guy. These coaches are the barnyard animals of the coaching profession. They're sweet as cows, and just as adept.

In two years my guess is Ragone will be starting for somebody.

Wharton
12-31-2005, 01:29 AM
Carr`s contract is way too much for him to be sitting on the bench. Tony Banks should have had more playing time this year as well as Ragone should have gotten some time on the field. With the playoffs out of reach why not? Simple McNair is not paying Carr to ride the bench.

Actually, for a QB, DC is not very well paid during this season. He has gotten a ton of money in bonuses over his career, but that is past money, not present money. Also, DC will be making alot next season in both signing (er, upfront) bonus money and salary if the options are exercised. The decision to play DC is probably not based on finances.

If the Texans thought for a second they could win games by benching DC, they would have done it in a heartbeat considering all the concessions revenue being lost on an empty stadium.

texan279
12-31-2005, 01:35 AM
Actually, for a QB, DC is not very well paid during this season. He has gotten a ton of money in bonuses over his career, but that is past money, not present money. Also, DC will be making alot next season in both signing (er, upfront) bonus money and salary if the options are exercised. The decision to play DC is probably not based on finances.

If the Texans thought for a second they could win games by benching DC, they would have done it in a heartbeat considering all the concessions revenue being lost on an empty stadium.

Carr's base salary this season is 5.5 million with a 2.31 million dollar in bonus pay for a total hit of 7.8 mil against the cap for 2005, more than any other Texan this season, the second closest is Walker who has a hit of 4 mil total against the cap for 2005.

Malloy
12-31-2005, 05:38 AM
I don't know really. It's hard to figure out what our coaches are thinking at any given time.


I think that alot of coaches, ours included, tend to play experienced players before younger unproven players. I guess it's because that if #1 goes down, you want the first backup to go in an preform without getting serious jitters. On one hand it prolly works best that way, on the other hand it becomes real hard for rookies/young players to get a shot at it.

Dunno, speculating really.

Erratic Assassin
12-31-2005, 10:34 AM
John & Lance on 610 watch Ragone practice and they say that Ragone sucks. There is a huge dropoff in talent from Carr to Ragone.

His success in NFL Europe means nothing.