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View Full Version : Is it possibe we're underrating Casserly's Performance ?


nunusguy
12-22-2005, 10:33 AM
Not everyone can boast of picking a 4th rounder who goes to the PB his
rookie year. Or picking a DD in the 4th round.
And even the most passionate Carr hater on this Board would have to admit
that Carr's problems were related to his developemnt after getting to Houston
and not the promise of his talent on Draft day. And Charlie drafted a young tackle way back in the Texans first college Draft, its not his fault that Capers & Co didn't just leave him at LT instead of experimenting along the way with
Wand, Riley, etc. at that most important and anchor position of the OL.
And I hear even Babin is maybe making a late comeback this season after beginning the year injured, and causing many of us doubters to reconsider
his potential ?
OK, Hollings and Pburnt were big busts, but Casserly gets high marks for AJ and D-Rob.
And then there's a whole batch of picks from late in the second day like CC,
Earl, Charlie Anderson, etc. that represent real value for your cap bucks.
I dunno...I'm starting to wonder if this years mess is not much more about
what Capers and his staff have done (or not done) in terms of developing and managing the talent they have and not a lack of talent based on personnel decisions made by Casserly ?

Runner
12-22-2005, 10:43 AM
I'd say we are underrating his performance. I'd even go so far as to opine that some players we all "know" are busts would actually be average given the right coaching and/or system. There is nothing wrong with average for a large portion of players on a team - half of the league is below that at any given position. They can't all be super stars.

ArlingtonTexan
12-22-2005, 10:46 AM
Many people want to make an overall unsatisfactory performance into someone who did all bad. It is never that clean. It is the same with a team, say the Patriots, whose overall record is outstanding. Casserly has had his moments, and the patriots have had some flops.

Buffi2
12-22-2005, 10:52 AM
.I'm starting to wonder if this years mess is not much more about what Capers and his staff have done (or not done) in terms of developing and managing the talent they have and not a lack of talent based on personnel decisions made by Casserly ?

It is possible. I think if you made a list of good trades/drafts and terrible trades/drafts, looked at the coaching of these players we might find that Casserly really isn't the problem. I can't believe I'm actually saying that - but maybe Reeves is detail oriented enough to make that list. I hate to see someone lose his job over something that really isn't his fault.

bdiddy
12-22-2005, 10:55 AM
Casserly has been adequate. However, if the story regarding Buchanon is true - only watching 4 of his games, etc. then this is inexcusable. What kind of reception would you get if you had a major project due and were lazy and misrepresented the facts to your boss. You would likely be looking for another position. Casserly's picks have been average, some good and some bad. I could live with this, but he has been horrendous in the free agent market and has not been thorough in his work. He is getting paid very hansomely, you cannot be excused for the buchanon mistake (and probably others). Additionally, he must stop blaming the bad picks on the coaches. The last time I checked you were the SVP and GM, you are Dom's boss - sure you want and respect his imput, but ultimately it is Casserly's decision of who to pick and/or sign. He needs to accept his mistakes.

z0rpAn
12-22-2005, 11:04 AM
Can we get a link/article to this PBuch story? havnt heard anything of it.

Tulip
12-22-2005, 11:15 AM
It's entirely possible. We'll never really know unless we see Casserly's personnel perform under a different coaching staff.

I lean towards underrated, because the Texans have no 1st round busts, and they've had some real later-round bargains.

He has made some questionable choices, but many of them have been injury-related problems (Joppru, Hollings). I'm not even ready to write off P-Buc yet, because Casserly thinks his defects could have been corrected through coaching. At this point, I have no reason not to agree.

Texans Horror
12-22-2005, 11:16 AM
Yes.

Runner
12-22-2005, 11:23 AM
Can we get a link/article to this PBuch story? havnt heard anything of it.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/3515657.html

Tulip
12-22-2005, 11:23 AM
Can we get a link/article to this PBuch story? havnt heard anything of it.

Here's the link:

Hands-off Days Over for McNair (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/3515657.html)

Corrosion
12-22-2005, 11:24 AM
Joe Marciano lobbied for the Mathis pick .... dont credit Casserly there

Carr ,DRob and AJ were NO-BRAINER PICKS (kinda like the D.Johnson pick SHOULD have been this past draft)... Ill give him a blue star for DD .... But the decisions this guy has made over the past two seasons are abysmal .

They only watched tape from FOUR games before the PBRUNT Trade .... FOUR GAMES ? :brickwall Thats NOT Due Diligence , Not when you are basicly investing a first round pick in the guy (2nd and 3rd)

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/3515657.html

Turns out, the Texans watched only four of Buchanon's 2004 games. McNair was flabbergasted.

Hollings ? who's that ? .... how many games did he play at RB in college ? four or less if my memory serves me ......Not to mention he was damaged goods prior to being picked in the suplimental draft . You dont use a second round pick on a project ..... a broken project at that.... You take those type of players late in day two . :brickwall

The only pick Ill give him a pass on is TE B.Joppru , he's just had a series of unfortunate injuries and we havent had a chance to evaluate him at all


Lets not forget who showed J.Sharper and Aaron Glenn the door ..... :brickwall

Tulip
12-22-2005, 11:34 AM
Casserly told Sports Radio 610 that he did not watch only 4 tapes of Buchanon.

I'm not sure what to believe about that, but I'm also not ready to write off Buchanon - yet.

Corrosion
12-22-2005, 11:45 AM
I'm also not ready to write off Buchanon - yet.

Its obvious to anyone who watches he definately has some physical talent ....but I think his personality and work ethic counter-balance this .

What I mean by this is that he would rather play the ball and try to make an INT (more often than not giving up a big play) than to play his coverage assignment .... He's always out of position .

The other problem is he looks to be scared to HIT SOMEONE ... cant be afraid to hit someone in FOOTBALL .

When he gets his hands on the ball .... He DOES have take it to the house ability ....Could he have some value on the offensive side of the ball ? (Doubt he would go across the middle as a reciever) .... :confused:

Bear
12-22-2005, 11:46 AM
Let's not forget about our 1st expansion pick, Tony Boselli. Oh and trading multiple picks to a division opponent that's struggling with the salary cap.

His number one picks were no brainers. Had we taken Harrington over Carr, I don't think it would have made that much of a difference. AJ in year two was antipated. We were projected to take Dunta or D. Hall in year three. TJ over DJ? Bad move IMO.

Coach C.
12-22-2005, 11:55 AM
I believe Mr. McNair when it comes to how Casserly handled the Buchanon situation, because there is no way any football mind could watch tapes of the guy his first 3 years and think you are getting anyone but what we got. He did not tackle and he did not cover in Oakland, Buch was benched in Oakland also until he was forced to play his man tighter. People use to abuse him as they do now throwing at him all game instead of taking on C. Woodson. Hell I would to and that is what people are doing with us. Either way, Casserly is a gambling man, we know he gambled and was fooled by KC, who was talking up David Pollack like there was no tomorrow, and took the pick thinking DJ would be there at 16. He gambled was wrong lost a stack of chips tough break. Casserly has done well with the no-brainer first rounders and his second day picks, that are drafted for potential for the most part anyway. It seems that our high end scouting department does not do a quality job with the first day picks though. They are solid, but other than first rounders a bit unspectacular. I dont critisize Casserly for his picks, but mainly the trades, personell, and signing methods he uses. He signs people like a guy who is Washington and loves to overpay, the rest of the league does not have to be that way. I also fault Casserly for not being tough enough on Dom to question his loyalty to Palmer, Pendry, and Fangio. We have some quality position coaches that have talent yet they are overlooked. This is the main fault with Casserly to me is he seems to stay a little to hands off for my taste until he starts shopping draft picks and FAs.

Jack Bauer
12-22-2005, 11:59 AM
Had we taken Harrington over Carr, I don't think it would have made that much of a difference.

As much as people hate on Carr, this board would have exploded if we had Harrington to deal with!

My take is that Casserly's performance grades out a D-. Whether he is a D- or an D+ doesn't really matter to me. He stinks.

eriadoc
12-22-2005, 12:07 PM
My problem with Casserly is not his ability to identify and acquire talent. He's acquired some pretty good talent, some of which had to leave the Texans before we fans found out about the talent. The problem I have with Casserly is how much he's paid for that talent. Babin may become a Pro Bowl player. But he'd have to become a borderline HOF'er to justify the picks we spent on him. That's no knock on Babin - it's all on Cass. Buchanon may well have the talent to be a #2 CB in this league, but he clearly hasn't had the proper attitude to do what it takes to achieve that to this point in his career. You don't pay what Casserly paid for career underachievers. Ragone may turn out to be a decent backup, but he was not worth a third round pick when we used it. Hollings might have been worth a flier, but a second round pick on a guy that had played RB for FOUR college games? Morency can be construed as a questionable pick, given our needs versus our current team strengths prior to this year's draft, but I'm waiting to see on that one.

Just a few examples.

aj.
12-22-2005, 12:17 PM
Casserly is as much or more the reason for this mess as the head coach. Give him kudos for the Mathis, DD, and Dunta (to an extent) picks but then give him a kick in the *** for Babin, Buchanon, Hollings, Ragone, Victor Riley, Foley, Wand, et al, and the ridiculous contracts given to Walker, Wade, Smith, Greenwood and others that are going to lock up millions of cap dollars in the future while those players may or may not even be here. While some of the problems we are seeing are due to system/scheme, Casserly's draft record is well documented and there's no need to wait and see what "his" players can do under a different head coach and system. His acquired talent - outside of no brainer, high first round picks - is historically average at best.

rafterticket
12-22-2005, 12:27 PM
Your examples are right slong the lines of my thinking. What kind of talent have we blown with this pseudo wheeling and dealing when we could have developed some really good players on straight draft picks?

TheOgre
12-22-2005, 12:35 PM
I think the biggest problem with Casserly is that he has done particularly poorly with his 2nd and 3rd round selections. If you exclude those two rounds, then he has done fairly well drafting. Unfortunately, those two rounds should build the foundation of your team (the 1st rounders should be predominantly playmakers). If he stays as our GM, he really needs to do a better job in those two rounds.

Double Barrel
12-22-2005, 12:46 PM
The entire front office is responsible for this 2-12 season in our fourth year (5-18 since mid-point of the 2004 season). Sure, the players play the game, but who picked those players?

I can't single out a coach or GM at this point, simply because their decisions are intertwined. And there is no way that any of us has a true idea on how much influence Capers or Casserly has on certain picks.

Therefore, fire them all. Overhaul still required.

BigDTexansFan
12-22-2005, 12:57 PM
Many people want to make an overall unsatisfactory performance into someone who did all bad. It is never that clean. It is the same with a team, say the Patriots, whose overall record is outstanding. Casserly has had his moments, and the patriots have had some flops.


TRUE, but winning games makes even your mistakes look good.

Hookem Horns
12-22-2005, 01:07 PM
Most of you in this thread are over-rating Casserly. AJ pretty much covered my thoughts on this guy.

McNair should have brought in Donald Trump, not Dan Reeves to deal with this mess.

http://www.lowculture.com/archives/images/fired.jpg

cuppacoffee
12-22-2005, 01:52 PM
I will state my agreement and tag along on eriadoc's post. It isn't even so much that Cass has picked the wrong guys, it's what he's given up to get them.

Travis Johnson ... where was he projected to go? And he doesn't even start for us, well that's because Walker and Robaire are flat out the better players. Meanwhile Derrick Johnson is every bit the 3-4 linebacker we need and we let him get away.
Greenwood, Babin, P-Buch ... just some of the names that we have overpaid for. To say nothing of cutting your two defensive [Pro-Bowl] leaders.
For a long time I was on the fire Casserly bandwagon, and I still think that at the end of the day, there is better out there. He has made some good moves, but he has also made some really bad ones. It is true that during this difficult time we will of course look for someone upon which to heap the blame, so maybe he is taking unfair shots right now. Then again, if we were 11-3 right now, none of us would likely be having this conversation.



Ah what the hell, he's right. Get em gone.

This is only one part of what I disagree with you about. If you are counting Sharper as one of the defensive "leaders" you missed his complaining about the team needing/not having any leaders when he was here. Leaders lead, they don't complain about not having leadership.

:coffee:

Meloy
12-22-2005, 02:03 PM
This is really quite simple. Casserly keeps 1st round pick and then trades any second or third picks for multiple fourth round picks. Expectations are not high and we save big on the $$. This way we keep getting high first round picks and in 20 to 30 years we have a great team of old farts! Think of the excitement every year about this time knowing we are in running for a great player. Hey, how many fourth round picks can we get for this years first round pick? Whoo, the thought makes me dizzy!

run-david-run
12-22-2005, 02:18 PM
Casserlly has had some good steals (DD, MAthis), but he has not adressed the major O-line problems. Drafting one guy in the 3rd round is not good enough. Instead of Babin we could have had Khalif Barnes. Last year we could have Had Alex Barron, Jammal Brown, Richie Incognito... etc...

El Tejano
12-22-2005, 02:19 PM
I really have liked the players he's drafted. I hate what he did to the players we lost to FA. The first one is Peek(you can't really blame CC because Peek basically signed somewhere else as soon as the clock struck 12am). You just have to wonder why we couldn't take a stand on this guy or offer a restructure in the middle of the season when this guy was leading our team with 8 sacks.

Then he sucked the defensive leadership out of our team when he let go of Sharper because he signed Greenwood, and let go of Glenn because he got Buchannon. Sharper is leading a pretty good defense that at one point of the season helped his team beat it's opponent 82-3 in two weeks of play and our run defense has suffered badly. Glenn has more interceptions this season than anyone on our team.

It's those offseason moves that set our teams back.

TheOgre
12-22-2005, 02:32 PM
I think you mean Posey not Peek.

bdiddy
12-22-2005, 02:43 PM
I really have liked the players he's drafted. I hate what he did to the players we lost to FA. The first one is Peek(you can't really blame CC because Peek basically signed somewhere else as soon as the clock struck 12am). You just have to wonder why we couldn't take a stand on this guy or offer a restructure in the middle of the season when this guy was leading our team with 8 sacks.

Then he sucked the defensive leadership out of our team when he let go of Sharper because he signed Greenwood, and let go of Glenn because he got Buchannon. Sharper is leading a pretty good defense that at one point of the season helped his team beat it's opponent 82-3 in two weeks of play and our run defense has suffered badly. Glenn has more interceptions this season than anyone on our team.

It's those offseason moves that set our teams back.

I do not like getting rid of Sharper or Glenn but your statements are a little incomplete.

Sharper has been hurt for the last half of the season, this is the main reason the Texans let him go, fearing that a veteran who saw so much action was bound to wear down at some point. I think Sharper should have stayed, but he is not leading Seattle's defense.

Glenn is having a so-so year. If you watch the Cowboys you can see he has lost a step. The Texans wanted him to stay, but to take a pay cut and be the 3rd corner. Glenn refused thinking he could start elsewhere and that the Cowboys were closer to winning.

El Tejano
12-22-2005, 03:07 PM
Thanks for correcting me guys. I did mean Posey. I don't know why I said Peek. I guess I saw the # 98 in my head and just wrote it down. Glenn may have lost a step but he has more INTs.

I still think he took the heart out of our D when he let both Sharper and Glenn go.

nunusguy
12-22-2005, 03:16 PM
and the ridiculous contracts given to Walker, Wade, Smith, Greenwood and others that are going to lock up millions of cap dollars in the future
Until we become competitive enough to effectively compete for a playoff spot, I'm of the opinion that we have to resign ourselves to paying premiums
in order to attract FA talent.

infantrycak
12-22-2005, 03:40 PM
Instead of Babin we could have had Khalif Barnes.

That would be, we could have had Khalif Barnes (2005 draft) plus a 3rd round player instead of Buchanon. Babin was a 2004 pick.

Glenn is having a so-so year. If you watch the Cowboys you can see he has lost a step. The Texans wanted him to stay, but to take a pay cut and be the 3rd corner. Glenn refused thinking he could start elsewhere and that the Cowboys were closer to winning.

Where did you get that version from? According to the team and Glenn they expected to keep him at his original contract price and have a competition with Buchanon for starter with the loser going to nickel and Faggins to dime. Glenn was interviewed and said Petey deserved to be a starter and the Texans had not asked him to take a pay cut.

Kaiser Toro
12-22-2005, 03:51 PM
Good thread Nunusguy.

I think Cass has done an above average job via the draft. However, free agency is where he has failed the team with large contracts for guys who have not even developed into our system. But, you would think that the coaching staff would have more input on free agents more so than rookies. So I ding his scouting, legal and cap team on that. This is why I think Cass will stay after he trims his scouting team, specifically anyone that has the word pro in their title.

Cass has been loyal to a fault with Capers as Capers is loyal to fault with his assistants. Cass is the boss and should see that changes had to have been made last year. As the GM you need to get that buck in the crosshairs and stop it dead in its track sometimes.

Carr and Harrington were over rated coming out of college. Ding me if you like, but never bought into the hype.

PBuch was as bad as we feared, but the Defense was worse then we ever expected. His cap hit for this year was 700k and next year 800k. Give us a new staff that does not heavily rely on zone coverage and lets reevaluate.

swtbound07
12-22-2005, 05:02 PM
okay, lets compromise folks. We bring in a new gm to draft rounds 1-3, then give casserly the reins in rounds 4-7, but dont allow him to trade....everybody good?

Kaiser Toro
12-22-2005, 05:18 PM
okay, lets compromise folks. We bring in a new gm to draft rounds 1-3, then give casserly the reins in rounds 4-7, but dont allow him to trade....everybody good?

Reeves and Cass? Two in a box? :hmmm:

As my college room mate Chugger used to say, "drink while you think."

aj.
12-22-2005, 05:30 PM
If you are counting Sharper as one of the defensive "leaders" you missed his complaining about the team needing/not having any leaders when he was here. Leaders lead, they don't complain about not having leadership.

:coffee:

Sharper said what other players have whispered and still others have implied in various statements about the Texans defense over the last couple of years. The leader comment (if I recall the comment it was something like "someone has to show us the way") is about Fangio and Capers' defensive gameplanning and tactics, not a call out of other players and their lack of leadership ability. Indy players complained about Fang's defense up there - complexity, requiring zone blitz out of a 4-3 with linemen who had trouble dropping into coverage, etc., etc.

Fangio/Capers defense (mainly the front seven assignments with a trickle down to the secondary) isn't popular with the players, it's hard to learn, it doesn't allow them to utilize natural instinctive football behavior, i.e., it requires too much thinking before reacting. That and conservative defensive gameplanning has turned the defense into a tenative bunch of players afraid to make a mistake.

The Sharper comments are a characteristic of the coaching variable of the "what's wrong with the Texans" equation. One of the other variables is the subject of this thread (Casserly). It's a complex equation - multiple variables, multiple unknows. There is no single cause.

UGA
12-22-2005, 05:36 PM
Horrible in free agency, horrible wheeling and dealing in the draft... and OVERATED with picks in the draft.

DD was picked as special teams player, they had no idea he could run as well as he did. Also lets not go overboard with DD. He is good, but would not be a starter on 20+ teams.

Mathis is a superb return man, but Cass didnt want this guy....

Carr, AJ and Dunta were no brainers and the one time he tried to get cute in the first round he blew it majorly. What a moronic move to lose DJ by trading down twice.

He has ignored signing legit talent on the line, and has overpayed for second and third tier has-beens.

He is supposed to be a cap guru, but he signs bloated franchise killing contracts to old past their prime types.

Furthermore, he runs the show... if Capers fails, he fails. He didnt start ratting out Capers until it was obvious his job was in jepordy while failing to comment on the fact that it is HIS job to make sure he has a good coaching staff, and that they are making wise decisions.

If Casserly isnt canned the day after the season ends, we all lose. He has blown this opportunity and its time for McNair to save the team and do us all a favor.

Kaiser Toro
12-22-2005, 05:46 PM
[QUOTE=aj.] a tenative bunch of players afraid to make a mistake.[QUOTE]

Good all around take AJ.

No matter what sport it is, if you have players that fit this statement you are in for a world of hurt. This can stem from poor evaluation of football IQ or the coaches have difficulty trying to convey their scheme through breakdown drills. Once the players are afraid to make a mistake and there are no wins to back up the scheme then what the afraid player saw as difficult to learn is then construed as a staff that is limiting their natural instinct. You go from sympathy to hesistancy then to volatility and apathy.

And the cure ain't as easy as "see a doctor and get rid of it."

aj.
12-22-2005, 05:56 PM
Until we become competitive enough to effectively compete for a playoff spot, I'm of the opinion that we have to resign ourselves to paying premiums
in order to attract FA talent.

There's some merit to that but this isn't Cleveland or Detroit or a host of other cities I could mention. Houston is a very livable city for professional athletes as shown by all the high profile ones who live here but don't necessarily play here. No state income tax, very affordable property, great night life, mild winters, great facilities, an owner who isn't afraid to spend, the relative parity in the NFL making it easier to turn things around from one season to the next, etc., etc., all make Houston a great destination for NFL free agents beyond the chance to get a ring factor. But of course, the chance to win is definitely a factor.

aj.
12-22-2005, 06:07 PM
...and there are no wins to back up the scheme ...



That's the part I usually include in that rant but I left it out this time for some reason - but it's arguably the most important factor. There's a make/break point with any scheme/system. If the players don't see the results, the second guessing eventually starts- in the locker room, on the practice field, in post game quotes, in the meeting room, wherever. When you reach that critical point, it's typically too late to recover due to the negative momentum .

humbleone
12-23-2005, 05:49 PM
Is it possibe we're underrating Casserly's Performance ?

In a word..."Noooo"! :brickwall

Bubbajwp
12-23-2005, 07:51 PM
Its obvious to anyone who watches he definately has some physical talent ....but I think his personality and work ethic counter-balance this .

What I mean by this is that he would rather play the ball and try to make an INT (more often than not giving up a big play) than to play his coverage assignment .... He's always out of position .

The other problem is he looks to be scared to HIT SOMEONE ... cant be afraid to hit someone in FOOTBALL .

When he gets his hands on the ball .... He DOES have take it to the house ability ....Could he have some value on the offensive side of the ball ? (Doubt he would go across the middle as a reciever) .... :confused:
I would just like to say that a new coach could easily change Pbuchs work ethic and attitude

stevo3883
12-23-2005, 08:58 PM
guys P-burnt was a bust in oakland.

we got tricked and got hosed in a deal to get him, and now hes been a total failure here and obviously hasnt changed a bit.


just give up, hes not worth the trouble. cut him and be done with it.