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View Full Version : Is this O-line weird or what?


Marcus
12-19-2005, 08:37 AM
Has anyone who has watched football for any length of time seen an offensive line so remarkably good at one thing and so bad at another?

The Texans line can open holes for DD, Morency, or Wells, actually get good push and move the defensive line around, and yet still not able to pass protect long enough to allow downfield passing routes to develop. (If I never see another quick hitch for the rest of my life, I wouldn't complain.)

On the surface, ir appears that the linemen are physically strong enough, or should I say . . talented physically for running plays, but are lacking the talent upstairs to "execute"(;))the protections on passing downs. Every team shuffles its lineup throughout the season, and it's got to be more than just coaching.

But after watching the Bears/Falcons game last night, I'm beginning to believe the problem lies with neither with the line, or the coaching. I watched Kyle Orton (a rookie 4th rounder, btw) do some things that reminded me of another QB of another team . . holding onto the ball, pocket awareness, etc, that made the offensive line looking real bad. Then, in the 2nd half, Rex Grossman comes in at QB, and all of a sudden, the OL plays pretty good. :hmmm:

I gotta stop. I think I just got depressed.

eriadoc
12-19-2005, 08:46 AM
Has anyone who has watched football for any length of time seen an offensive line so remarkably good at one thing and so bad at another?

The Texans line can open holes for DD, Morency, or Wells, actually get good push and move the defensive line around, and yet still not able to pass protect long enough to allow downfield passing routes to develop. (If I never see another quick hitch for the rest of my life, I wouldn't complain.)

On the surface, ir appears that the linemen are physically strong enough, or should I say . . talented physically for running plays, but are lacking the talent upstairs to "execute"(;))the protections on passing downs. Every team shuffles its lineup throughout the season, and it's got to be more than just coaching.

But after watching the Bears/Falcons game last night, I'm beginning to believe the problem lies with neither with the line, or the coaching. I watched Kyle Orton (a rookie 4th rounder, btw) do some things that reminded me of another QB of another team . . holding onto the ball, pocket awareness, etc, that made the offensive line looking real bad. Then, in the 2nd half, Rex Grossman comes in at QB, and all of a sudden, the OL plays pretty good. :hmmm:

I gotta stop. I think I just got depressed.


Wasn't Wells' YPC something like 3.1?

Kaiser Toro
12-19-2005, 08:53 AM
Has anyone who has watched football for any length of time seen an offensive line so remarkably good at one thing and so bad at another?

The Texans line can open holes for DD, Morency, or Wells, actually get good push and move the defensive line around, and yet still not able to pass protect long enough to allow downfield passing routes to develop. (If I never see another quick hitch for the rest of my life, I wouldn't complain.)

On the surface, ir appears that the linemen are physically strong enough, or should I say . . talented physically for running plays, but are lacking the talent upstairs to "execute"(;))the protections on passing downs. Every team shuffles its lineup throughout the season, and it's got to be more than just coaching.

But after watching the Bears/Falcons game last night, I'm beginning to believe the problem lies with neither with the line, or the coaching. I watched Kyle Orton (a rookie 4th rounder, btw) do some things that reminded me of another QB of another team . . holding onto the ball, pocket awareness, etc, that made the offensive line looking real bad. Then, in the 2nd half, Rex Grossman comes in at QB, and all of a sudden, the OL plays pretty good. :hmmm:

I gotta stop. I think I just got depressed.

It is amazing isn't it? Does anyone really think that this OLine is that bad? They started with different teams and commanded the salaries that we gave them. Yet when they get here they are horrible? We have a QB that has always been sacked even when he was at Fresno State he was sacked in a quick strike offense at the tune of every ~9.5 attempts.

Our OLine coach/OC had Kerry Collins and the most he got sacked in three years was 27 times. Collins is not the most fleet footed person. It all points to Carr's inability to read defense at the line, inability to go through progressions and his fear of staying in the pocket.

Hervoyel
12-19-2005, 08:59 AM
Wasn't Wells' YPC something like 3.1?

Yes. He got the lions share of that in the first half. Once Pendry pulled everything back in and started trying to "preserve the win" (what it looked like to me) everything on the offense became less effective. For all of my criticism of David Carr I have to say that in the first half he ran a better version of our tinker toy offense than Joe Pendry does. We ate some clock at the end that added carries (but not yards) to what Wells had done in the first half.

I can only make a best guess here but I believe that if David Carr had been allowed to continue running our offense the way he had been the Wells/Morency tandem would have performed much better in the second half. We had 119 yards rushing and yes Wells averaged 3.1 yards per carry. Add Morency's numbers to Wells and you get a 3.6 yard per carry average for the day which is better than or equal to 5 of Davis's starts this year.

Kaiser Toro
12-19-2005, 09:02 AM
Yes. He got the lions share of that in the first half. Once Pendry pulled everything back in and started trying to "preserve the win" (what it looked like to me) everything on the offense became less effective. For all of my criticism of David Carr I have to say that in the first half he ran a better version of our tinker toy offense than Joe Pendry does. We ate some clock at the end that added carries (but not yards) to what Wells had done in the first half.

I can only make a best guess here but I believe that if David Carr had been allowed to continue running our offense the way he had been the Wells/Morency tandem would have performed much better in the second half. We had 119 yards rushing and yes Wells averaged 3.1 yards per carry. Add Morency's numbers to Wells and you get a 3.6 yard per carry average for the day which is better than or equal to 5 of Davis's starts this year.

Yes, but Davis did not play against a less than inspired Cards Defense. Nor did he play in a game this year where we led most of the game.

Runner
12-19-2005, 09:14 AM
I think the o-line under performs for their talent level; I think most of our lineman are worse now than they were two years ago. I wouldn't give the coaching staff any kind of slack on the play of the o-line. It is my opinion the coaches are the root cause of this regression.

I just don't understand how the coaches game plan - I wonder what the they were thinking when they wouldn't use our 6 lineman "jumbo" package on 4th and 1, but they used it at the end of the game while running out the clock.

edo783
12-19-2005, 09:29 AM
To me it was kind of interesting that in the first half Carr had more controll over what he was allowed to do, even if it was a short passing game plan, and it worked fairly well. Then our coaches turn turtle in the second half and take back controll and all of a sudden we can't move the ball. Go figure. Make no mistake about it though, our coaches use that short quick passing game because the O-line stinks. I agree with the posetr who talked about how wierd they are in that they run block fairly well and yet could hold out a high school defense on a pass rush. MOST of this I lay at the coaching staffs door step.

Hervoyel
12-19-2005, 09:38 AM
Yes, but Davis did not play against a less than inspired Cards Defense. Nor did he play in a game this year where we led most of the game.

The Cards defense wasn't impressive but Davis did play in a game where we led most of the way. He played against the Rams where we led until the 4th quarter (24-3 at the half, 24-10 going into the 4th quarter). The Rams run defense is 29th and the Cards are 16th so I think those are very similar circumstances. Not exact but similar.

Davis had 25 carries, 78 yards, and a 3.1 average that day. He also caught 3 passes for another 42 yards. Very "Wells-like" numbers I think.

It doesn't really show much. Stats don't tell the whole story but those are similar days.

Kaiser Toro
12-19-2005, 09:48 AM
The Cards defense wasn't impressive but Davis did play in a game where we led most of the way. He played against the Rams where we led until the 4th quarter (24-3 at the half, 24-10 going into the 4th quarter). The Rams run defense is 29th and the Cards are 16th so I think those are very similar circumstances. Not exact but similar.

Davis had 25 carries, 78 yards, and a 3.1 average that day. He also caught 3 passes for another 42 yards. Very "Wells-like" numbers I think.

It doesn't really show much. Stats don't tell the whole story but those are similar days.

Interesting take from a high level point of view, but if you get granular with it Davis had 10 rushes for 51 yards in the second half and OT. He did his job in helpng us protect the lead. The breakdown was on Defense.

Hervoyel
12-19-2005, 09:52 AM
Interesting take from a high level point of view, but if you get granular with it Davis had 10 rushes for 51 yards in the second half and OT. He did his job in helpng us protect the lead. The breakdown was on Defense.

True. In this game Wells did his real damage in the first half (like pretty much everyone on the Texans offense) so it's hard to compare the two games. I think Wells could have done that (against St Louis) and Davis could have run on the Cardinals in the same manner Wells did yesterday. Davis probably would have become less effective like Wells did as Pendry reigned it all in to protect the lead and eat the clock.

We just downshifted after halftime yesterday. Only a "make something from nothing" kind of back was going to get a lot of yards in the second half and no, I don't mean for that to slide into the "He who must not be named" zone.

Vinny
12-19-2005, 09:53 AM
I like how Morency showed his great quickness and explosiveness and didn't see many touches again...we can't have too much of that around here. We showed him.

MightyTExan
12-19-2005, 10:10 AM
I've said it beofre, it's pretty obvious that the line does not want to play for Carr.

Marcus
12-19-2005, 10:17 AM
I've said it before, it's pretty obvious that the line does not want to play for Carr.

You know what? The more I think about that, the less preposterous it becomes.

Kaiser Toro
12-19-2005, 10:19 AM
I've said it beofre, it's pretty obvious that the line does not want to play for Carr.

I agree with that.

SESupergenius
12-19-2005, 10:26 AM
I agree with that.
Of course you would, that really isn't a surprise. Has anyone talked to oline to get some factual quotes about them not wanting to play for Carr? I didn't think so. Please keep defending this horrible oline and we will consistantly be picking in the top 10 every year. Casserly thinks the same way as you do.

Kaiser Toro
12-19-2005, 10:30 AM
Of course you would, that really isn't a surprise. Has anyone talked to oline to get some factual quotes about them not wanting to play for Carr? I didn't think so. Please keep defending this horrible oline and we will consistantly be picking in the top 10 every year. Casserly thinks the same way as you do.

So you have a problem with me agreeing with one's opinion. When I have defended the OLine's pass blocking? I have been adamant that I do not want Cass in my posts. Come on SES your better than this, check the emotions at the door.

SESupergenius
12-19-2005, 10:35 AM
So you have a problem with me agreeing with one's opinion. When I have defended the OLine's pass blocking? I have been adamant that I do not want Cass in my posts. Come on SES your better than this, check the emotions at the door.
What can I say, I am an emotion guy when I see things quite differently. I've seen you badger Carr repeatedly in several posts after he led them to a victory yesterday. I see no reason to rain on his parade when he commanded a team like that to a victory. He marched that team up and down the field when he was given the reigns, there is no denying that.

Jack Bauer
12-19-2005, 10:38 AM
I've said it beofre, it's pretty obvious that the line does not want to play for Carr.

If the OL is not motivated by the big fat paycheck each receives, then I am all for replacing each and every one of them.

Kaiser Toro
12-19-2005, 10:41 AM
What can I say, I am an emotion guy when I see things quite differently. I've seen you badger Carr repeatedly in several posts after he led them to a victory yesterday. I see no reason to rain on his parade when he commanded a team like that to a victory. He marched that team up and down the field when he was given the reigns, there is no denying that.

I have been consistently critical of the guy over the last year and do agree that he got the job done in the first half. However, I do feel that we could pay someone minimum money to get that done. I will tone it down on Carr as I have done for the last couple of weeks, but I just got tired of the Bush trolls, Davis haters and the fans who want us to lose.

Buffi2
12-19-2005, 10:43 AM
I've said it beofre, it's pretty obvious that the line does not want to play for Carr.
This may be a stupid question, but why doesn't the oline want to play for Carr?:confused:

SESupergenius
12-19-2005, 10:45 AM
I have been consistently critical of the guy over the last year and do agree that he got the job done in the first half. However, I do feel that we could pay someone minimum money to get that done. I will tone it down on Carr as I have done for the last couple of weeks, but I just got tired of the Bush trolls, Davis haters and the fans who want us to lose.
I agree with that. I don't view Carr as a savior, I am more of a defense critic. But yesterday he ran this offense efficiently. Now the defense almost let them back into the game again. I say we draft the best guy avail with our 1st pick but address the oline in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, which is what we should have done last year.

Kaiser Toro
12-19-2005, 10:53 AM
I agree with that. I don't view Carr as a savior, I am more of a defense critic. But yesterday he ran this offense efficiently. Now the defense almost let them back into the game again. I say we draft the best guy avail with our 1st pick but address the oline in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, which is what we should have done last year.

We both want the same result, we just got different ideas on how to get there in the short and long term. Once we start winning, even the crow, from the comments one of us is pushing, will taste sweet. :)

SESupergenius
12-19-2005, 11:02 AM
We both want the same result, we just got different ideas on how to get there in the short and long term. Once we start winning, even the crow, from the comments one of us is pushing, will taste sweet. :)
Ahhh it's almost like a friendly competition, who has the right answers for this team that outside of this forum nobody will even take a 2nd glance at. But I will tell you that if I fed crow to all the homers who were dogging me for saying that our offseason moves were horrible and that we wouldn't be a very good team this year, they all be stuffed so fat that they'd have to buy to PSL's next season to fit into their chairs.

BigWig
12-19-2005, 11:19 AM
Has anyone who has watched football for any length of time seen an offensive line so remarkably good at one thing and so bad at another?

The Texans line can open holes for DD, Morency, or Wells, actually get good push and move the defensive line around, and yet still not able to pass protect long enough to allow downfield passing routes to develop. (If I never see another quick hitch for the rest of my life, I wouldn't complain.)

On the surface, ir appears that the linemen are physically strong enough, or should I say . . talented physically for running plays, but are lacking the talent upstairs to "execute"(;))the protections on passing downs. Every team shuffles its lineup throughout the season, and it's got to be more than just coaching.

But after watching the Bears/Falcons game last night, I'm beginning to believe the problem lies with neither with the line, or the coaching. I watched Kyle Orton (a rookie 4th rounder, btw) do some things that reminded me of another QB of another team . . holding onto the ball, pocket awareness, etc, that made the offensive line looking real bad. Then, in the 2nd half, Rex Grossman comes in at QB, and all of a sudden, the OL plays pretty good. :hmmm:

I gotta stop. I think I just got depressed.
Just remember who the O- line was blocking against, another bad D-line!

run-david-run
12-19-2005, 11:24 AM
We just downshifted after halftime yesterday. Only a "make something from nothing" kind of back was going to get a lot of yards in the second half and no, I don't mean for that to slide into the "He who must not be named" zone.
Why cant we name Vernand Morency?:yahoo:

Hervoyel
12-19-2005, 11:44 AM
16th against the run Bigwig so I wouldn't call them bad.

I wouldn't call them good either. Right exactly middle of the road is what they are.

touttail
12-19-2005, 08:34 PM
Has anyone who has watched football for any length of time seen an offensive line so remarkably good at one thing and so bad at another?

The Texans line can open holes for DD, Morency, or Wells, actually get good push and move the defensive line around, and yet still not able to pass protect long enough to allow downfield passing routes to develop. (If I never see another quick hitch for the rest of my life, I wouldn't complain.)

On the surface, ir appears that the linemen are physically strong enough, or should I say . . talented physically for running plays, but are lacking the talent upstairs to "execute"(;))the protections on passing downs. Every team shuffles its lineup throughout the season, and it's got to be more than just coaching.

But after watching the Bears/Falcons game last night, I'm beginning to believe the problem lies with neither with the line, or the coaching. I watched Kyle Orton (a rookie 4th rounder, btw) do some things that reminded me of another QB of another team . . holding onto the ball, pocket awareness, etc, that made the offensive line looking real bad. Then, in the 2nd half, Rex Grossman comes in at QB, and all of a sudden, the OL plays pretty good. :hmmm:

I gotta stop. I think I just got depressed.

It's easier rush blocking than pass blocking. Blocking on a running play you can use the momentum of the defensive player to push him to the side to open up holes, plus you can use your hands more and not get caught. Run block takes about 1 1/2 seconds to hold the block.

Pass blocking you have to wait for the defensive player to approach you, try to stand him up and keep him away from your QB. Much harder to do. You have to hold your block for twice the time of a running play, say 3 to 3 1/2 seconds.

Bobby 119C:brickwall