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stevo3883
12-18-2005, 05:04 PM
So with the performance of Wells and Morency today, it opens up some new questions about our team.

Are all of our backs so good that they can succeed with any line, or is it that our line is a lot better at run blocking than given credit for.



I didnt see much of the "getting hit 3 yards behind the line" which lots of people say happens, but i did see some long runs broken off, and some broken tackles and getting extra yards.

PapaL
12-18-2005, 05:09 PM
So with the performance of Wells and Morency today, it opens up some new questions about our team.

Are all of our backs so good that they can succeed with any line, or is it that our line is a lot better at run blocking than given credit for.



I didnt see much of the "getting hit 3 yards behind the line" which lots of people say happens, but i did see some long runs broken off, and some broken tackles and getting extra yards.

In my opinion, its Run blocking. Seems who ever we put back there had a game for us. Given that we are using Denvers blocking scheme, we seem to be also having their success at plugging in RB's and they being successful.

tulexan
12-18-2005, 05:11 PM
Maybe, just maybe, our offensive line is decent if not good at run blocking. I'm not saying that we have Denver's run blocking, but on running plays our line is much better than on passing plays.

aj.
12-18-2005, 05:12 PM
The Texans have been a good running team for a while. I think they were something like 12th or 13th in the league in rushing entering the game. What they did today is really no surprise.

Hervoyel
12-18-2005, 05:13 PM
Our line run blocks rather well. Not great but certainly good enough to get the job done. Domanick Davis gets good yardage behind our line and you routinely read in here that if we had a better line then he'd be a premier back and get more yards. When he's out (which we see often enough) Wells is able to replicate very Domanick Davis like numbers and it appears that Morency will probably be able to do the same thing.

So do we have three potential franchise backs here? No, of course not. We have three pretty good backs. Not great, not "franchise", just pretty good. Our line is not that bad. The talent level on our line is not that bad. We have a lousy offensive line coach who was brought in because he was Dom's pal and who was handed a unit that had gone from 76 sacks to 36 sacks. They were improving. Since Joe Pendry arrived our offensive line has regressed considerably even as the talent level has improved.

I can't wait to see what the next offensive line coach can do with these guys. I'm not under the illusion that they are all going to the Pro Bowl but I bet we've got a pretty good line here.

Fiddy
12-18-2005, 05:13 PM
It opens the question: Why did it take till week 15 for Morency to get some carries???

rmartin65
12-18-2005, 05:16 PM
This proves that Bush is not needed.

ccdude730
12-18-2005, 05:17 PM
It opens the question: Why did it take till week 15 for Morency to get some carries???
i hear they had to order him some non-slip shoes with special cleats

Carr Bombed
12-18-2005, 05:18 PM
This is what i've been saying the past two years. People say if only DD didn't have to run behind a sorry line he would be a elite back. DD doesn't run behind a sorry line. Our line was built to run the ball and they're pretty good at it, they just can't pass block to save their life, but they are getting better at it.

Scooter
12-18-2005, 05:22 PM
we were playing against the cardinals and combined they barely squeeked out more than 100 yards. lets try a little perspective.

PapaL
12-18-2005, 05:22 PM
This proves that Bush is not needed.

Can we have one thread where he, whose name is not to be spoken, is brought up? Give it a rest man. If it isnt the for its the against. :brickwall

ArlingtonTexan
12-18-2005, 05:25 PM
It opens the question: Why did it take till week 15 for Morency to get some carries???

Especially since you could have saved the starting RB by not forcing 30 touches when he has a documented bad knee. Would not have killed the Texans to figure out 8-12 touches for somebody not name DomDavis.

aj.
12-18-2005, 05:25 PM
We found one of the few teams in the league that could possibly be more inept than us today. I had forgotten that John Navarre was in the league. Settle down with the "this proves" anything stuff.

Carr Bombed
12-18-2005, 05:26 PM
It opens the question: Why did it take till week 15 for Morency to get some carries???

coaching. Good coaches are flexible and will change their game plans and schemes to their players. Bad coaches (capers) wont budge and stick with the same old stagnet game plan week in and week out. Parcells isn't having much success with J. Jones, so he sticks his rookie in there and now splits carries. Good coaches protect their players and put them in the best position to win. Our running depth is a strength on our team and we should be splitting carries to take a load off DD and protect him from being injured.

Hervoyel
12-18-2005, 05:26 PM
This proves that Bush is not needed.

See I draw a completely different conclusion from this. I think that the results of this game imply that our offensive line run blocks rather well, that either Domanick Davis, Jonathan Wells, or Vernand Morency can get pretty good yardage behind them, and that this means that all three are just about interchangeable. Sure Wells runs different from Davis but at the end of the day you have pretty much the same result. Wonder if plugging Bush in behind that line would change anything or do you think he's probably going to get the same kind of yards that Jonathan Wells, Domanick Davis, and Vernand Morency get?

Guess it's all hype.

Fiddy
12-18-2005, 05:28 PM
We found one of the few teams in the league that could possibly be more inept than us today. I had forgotten that John Navarre was in the league. Settle down with the "this proves" anything stuff. If Warner doesnt get injured, we get carved up. The Cards had great field position all day long but couldnt do anything with it cause Warner was out.

Kurt Warner had 35 less passing yards than Carr...on 23 less attempts.

Carr Bombed
12-18-2005, 05:28 PM
talking about our run blocking has nothing to do with the cardinals. We've been running the ball great as of late and been doing it the past couple of years

tulexan
12-18-2005, 05:29 PM
We found one of the few teams in the league that could possibly be more inept than us today. I had forgotten that John Navarre was in the league. Settle down with the "this proves" anything stuff.


All this proves is that we can barely beat Cleveland and we can beat Arizona if they don't have Kurt Warner. We are better than our record, but we aren't as good we looked today.

Goldeagle
12-18-2005, 05:30 PM
So with the performance of Wells and Morency today, it opens up some new questions about our team.

Are all of our backs so good that they can succeed with any line, or is it that our line is a lot better at run blocking than given credit for.



I didnt see much of the "getting hit 3 yards behind the line" which lots of people say happens, but i did see some long runs broken off, and some broken tackles and getting extra yards.


Yeah our O line are decent and run blocking. All they have to do is run forward and hit someone while pass blocking requires a thought and skill.

Also, this should show with DD and Wells, do we really need Bush?

keyfro
12-18-2005, 05:34 PM
first of all this was the arizona cardnals we played...not the chicago bears or indy colts...so don't give the line that much credit...our line does do a decent job of run blocking when stroud and henderson are not on the other side...but once again it's the sacks that this line gives up that is so horrible...carr was sacked something like 3 or 4 times this game...one of them is one him but still that's three that's on the o-line...we need better lineman...we need recievers that get open faster...we need a tight end that can be the security blanket for carr...and we need a starting back that can stay healthy year round...does that mean we need number 5 from usc no...but it would be nice...like i said before...if we get davin joseph, one of the top flight TE's, and maybe another guard or tackle i'll be happy...but we need to do something that helps this team pass the football more efficently so we're not a one dimensional team

tulexan
12-18-2005, 05:36 PM
You could look at it like that. But you could also say that Bush wouldn't have a problem because the line is creating holes unlike some here would like to admit. Davis isn't squeezing through nonexistent holes. He is running through fairly large holes. Our problem is that we can't pass block. But I think that if we just use more roll outs we could fix that a little. Doesn't it seem like we have a lot of success with roll outs and then for some reason Capers thinks that Carr should be more of a pocket passer and gets nailed like 4 or 5 times in one drive? Stick with what works. Carr isn't a pocket passer, so don't make him one.

Hervoyel
12-18-2005, 05:58 PM
I think that a change of pass protection system will go a long way towards helping these players and I believe that getting some starts on these young monsters we've picked up in our short existence (Weary, Brown, Wand, and now Hodgdon) might answer some more of our questions.

Seriously, when I see a post that uses the "We've ignored the O-line for the last four years" line I just shake my head and smile at the rampant ignorance. It's happened right before our eyes so how come this myth survives?

In the expansion draft we made two prominent choices for tackles in Boselli and Young. They didn't work out but that's not the same thing as ignoring the positions is it? We signed Steve McKinney in free agency and he was a starting guard for the Colts. We drafted Chester Pitts and Fred Weary, then later in the year we took Milford Brown in the supplemental draft (which actually applies to 2003 but anyway...). We signed Zach Weigert and Greg Randall. They also drafted Bennie Joppru (We did need a TE that could both block and catch which one could argue would help the line) and Seth Wand. Todd Washington also comes to town. Free agent Todd Wade is signed and here comes our new offensive line coach, none other than Joe Pendry. Finally we go out and try to get Orlando Pace but fail to land that player. We draft Drew Hodgdon.

We haven't ignored the offensive line. We've failed to do anything with the collection of talent that's been assembled.

Honoring Earl 34
12-18-2005, 06:06 PM
:redtowel: What are the chances that all the draft choices and free agents are this sorry at pass blocking ?

Anyone watching the Cowboys looking like the Texans .

Scooter
12-18-2005, 06:24 PM
point taken herv. instead of "ignoring the line", it'd be more accurate to say that casserly and/or pendry have "failed to execute". :tomato:

what i'm failing to see though is where we had a great day running. wells averaged 3.1ypc and if not for morency's one big run, we had a very poor day on the ground (he averaged under 2ypc excluding the big run). this going against a terrible team overall and a team weak against the run. we finally won a game, but it was because they handed us 4 turnovers, not because we ran on them at will.

rmartin65
12-18-2005, 06:34 PM
See I draw a completely different conclusion from this. I think that the results of this game imply that our offensive line run blocks rather well, that either Domanick Davis, Jonathan Wells, or Vernand Morency can get pretty good yardage behind them, and that this means that all three are just about interchangeable. Sure Wells runs different from Davis but at the end of the day you have pretty much the same result. Wonder if plugging Bush in behind that line would change anything or do you think he's probably going to get the same kind of yards that Jonathan Wells, Domanick Davis, and Vernand Morency get?

Guess it's all hype.
I did not think about it that way. Good point.

Erratic Assassin
12-18-2005, 06:36 PM
I believe that getting some starts on these young monsters we've picked up in our short existence (Weary, Brown, Wand, and now Hodgdon) might answer some more of our questions.

Seriously, when I see a post that uses the "We've ignored the O-line for the last four years" line I just shake my head and smile at the rampant ignorance. It's happened right before our eyes so how come this myth survives?

If Seth Wand is the answer, I don't want to know the question. The only thing we know about Fred Weary and Milford Brown is that they haven't been good enough to crack the starting lineup of the world's worst offensive line in the past 4 years. This week shouldn't count. They are only in there because we have no chance of making the playoffs.

What do you consider "addressing the offensive line"? The fact that we have any offensive linemen at all? Of course we do. So does every other team in the NFL, but our line STINKS because we have a horribly untalented players on it.

edo783
12-18-2005, 06:36 PM
If Warner doesnt get injured, we get carved up. The Cards had great field position all day long but couldnt do anything with it cause Warner was out.

Kurt Warner had 35 less passing yards than Carr...on 23 less attempts.

For crying out loud, give it a rest. We GOT IT, you hate Carr. It is getting EXTREMILY tiresome having vertually every post from you being negative about him. We get it, he is the blame for everthing that is wrong on the team, and isn't worthy of sacking groceries. This is extremely irritating to me seeing as your a moderator and shoudn't be carrying out a personal hate vedeta like some of the folks do. State your piece and then give it a rest.

Fiddy
12-18-2005, 06:37 PM
For crying out loud, give it a rest. We GOT IT, you hate Carr. It is getting EXTREMILY tiresome having vertually every post from you being negative about him. We get it, he is the blame for everthing that is wrong on the team, and isn't worthy of sacking groceries. This is extremely irritating to me seeing as your a moderator and shoudn't be carrying out a personal hate vedeta like some of the folks do. State your piece and then give it a rest. I just stated two stats. Warner was carrying his team until he could no longer play and we were depending on the running game.

And for everyone of my "hater" post, there is about 5 golden boy posts and those get annoying, too...

And i dont hate Carr, i think he is a great person. He just isnt as good as a 60 million dollar QB should be.

Coach C.
12-18-2005, 06:38 PM
Herv you have gotten lengthy in your posts now that you are not a mod. Anyway I am a believer that a good RB makes a good line look great and vice versa. You look at our line and hell yeah they can run block, but we have been doing it for years, Wells did not gain as much yardage as DD, mainly because he is not as good. Morency likely would have because they are the same type of back. DD is a good back and I dont think you are trying to say he is not, but Bush would put up numbers behind our line. I dont think anyone is saying Bush would not, I think they are simply stating that there are better uses. Bush also will never run the ball 29 times in a game, but he can easily be used like Faulk in his younger years.

Vinny
12-18-2005, 06:40 PM
Herv you have gotten lengthy in your posts now that you are not a mod. I've seen 4 years of Herv posts and they haven't changed...before, during and after being a mod. Clicking a button hasn't changed anything.

Coach C.
12-18-2005, 06:43 PM
Vinchenzo nice to hear from ya pops. Herv as long as I have been on the board his answers were to the point and concise. Now he gives the masses some knowledge. I was applauding him big dogg.

edo783
12-18-2005, 06:51 PM
I just stated two stats. Warner was carrying his team until he could no longer play and we were depending on the running game.

And for everyone of my "hater" post, there is about 5 golden boy posts and those get annoying, too...

And i dont hate Carr, i think he is a great person. He just isnt as good as a 60 million dollar QB should be.


And I guess this was just some random musings from you also from today:

Carr had plenty of time today. The Cardinals were the ones that didnt. And Carr was calling most of the plays, atleast in the first half, according to the SR610 crew.

Either way, Carr screwed up a few times:
1) Before our first TD, Carr had plently of time, got happy feet and instead of stepping up and getting a few more seconds, he scrambled forward for a yard or two.
2) At our 8, 2nd down, 20 seconds left in the half, Carr spikes the ball to get to the 3rd down and then calls a timeout so he wasted a down. We have to settle for a FG.
3) The INT. The LB baited him like Carr was a rookie.
4) After we had gotten a turnover, Carr scrambles to buy time and then instead of throwing it away, tries to pick up 2 yards and fumbles the ball.

If Warner plays the entire game, we lose.

dat_boy_yec
12-18-2005, 06:53 PM
I agree with alot of what Hervoyel says regarding the Texans. Plus he articulated the thoughts way better than I probably could. I've noticed on some boards people talk about the backups for the o-line not being able to crack the starting line up. well I don't know if it's me but I kind of think the coaches aren't really willing to give the backups the opportunity. On defense Orr was a backup and he's been playing very well so has Polk, but I wonder if they would have ever played if not for the injuries forcing them to play. On the o-line it seems to me the coaching staff would rather shuffle instead of putting in a backup. Hodgedon has been doing well and again I wonder if an injury hadn't forced him to play when would we have seen him. Wand went from starter last season to non-existant this season, and we haven't seen Weary play enough to really say anything about him. Brown, well I'm not gonna lie, I think he makes to many mistakes, but like I said I agree with Hervoyel. We have some talent on the line it just hasn't been utilized well enough.

Fiddy
12-18-2005, 06:56 PM
And I guess this was just some random musings from you also from today:

Carr had plenty of time today. The Cardinals were the ones that didnt. And Carr was calling most of the plays, atleast in the first half, according to the SR610 crew.

Either way, Carr screwed up a few times:
1) Before our first TD, Carr had plently of time, got happy feet and instead of stepping up and getting a few more seconds, he scrambled forward for a yard or two.
2) At our 8, 2nd down, 20 seconds left in the half, Carr spikes the ball to get to the 3rd down and then calls a timeout so he wasted a down. We have to settle for a FG.
3) The INT. The LB baited him like Carr was a rookie.
4) After we had gotten a turnover, Carr scrambles to buy time and then instead of throwing it away, tries to pick up 2 yards and fumbles the ball.

If Warner plays the entire game, we lose. He had 4 bad plays which shows that he has a low football IQ on the field. I'm truly sorry.


There is an ignore list you can put me on if you want.

Double Barrel
12-18-2005, 06:56 PM
I agree with the above posters about keeping things in perspective. While I'm happy we won a game (FINALLY!), we did play the Cardinals. There is no doubt that they're worse shape than us right now.

But major overhaul still required for our team.

Runner
12-18-2005, 07:02 PM
How many times did we fail on 3rd and 1 and 4th and 1? I think there were at least a couple.

At the end of the game as we we were running out the clock before our last field goal we used our "jumbo" line-up - 6 offensive lineman, one reporting in as tight end. This is something we did a lot of 2 years ago.

However, we did not use this formation on more critical short yardage situations when the game was still competitive. I just don't get it. We had the plays in the game plan, but we didn't use them when it counts.

Hervoyel
12-18-2005, 07:04 PM
The only thing we know about Fred Weary and Milford Brown is that they haven't been good enough to crack the starting lineup of the world's worst offensive line in the past 4 years.

The same people who tell you that were the ones telling you that Victor Riley was the "answer" to, well something. I'm not sure what. I don't think they can tell you either and in another year or two they would probably deny that he was ever on our roster. They're the same people who told you that Pitts must be a Guard in the NFL but then played him at LT and now say he's the answer to that question.

EA, don't take this the wrong way because I think it applies to me and everyone else watching the Texans from the outside as much as it applies to you.

You don't know a thing about the Texans OL personnel.

Jimpster
12-18-2005, 07:06 PM
This proves that Bush is not needed.

DD injured and on the side lines (again) proves that we do need Bush. DD can't make a whole season without some kind of injury. Besides, Wells and Bush would make a better tandem than DD and Bush. Wells is bigger and a better blocker. If the cards fall in favor of the Texans, draft Bush and trade DD for an OL.

HJam72
12-18-2005, 11:29 PM
Here's my take:

Getting Bush will improve the running game and possible improve it vastly, but Carr's still gonna get put on his butt. You might think that Bush's performance will back off the LBs, but it's the front 4 that usually get to Carr anyway. I still want linemen, but, hey, what's the difference anyway? We're probably not going to get the first pick now anyway. I just hope we win out and it doesn't keep Capers here.

SESupergenius
12-18-2005, 11:38 PM
We seem to run good but not when it counts. There have have soooo many 1 yard failures by this line that I can't see anyone thinking they are anything but average. People once again divert the real problems of this team away from the oline once they get 100 yards in rushing. Big Whippee. Our oline still gets blown up after 3 seconds of pass protection. But really all you Casserly's, go ahead a draft at other positions, well be picking the top 10 often.

texplayer2
12-19-2005, 12:15 AM
We seem to run good but not when it counts. There have have soooo many 1 yard failures by this line that I can't see anyone thinking they are anything but average. People once again divert the real problems of this team away from the oline once they get 100 yards in rushing. Big Whippee. Our oline still gets blown up after 3 seconds of pass protection. But really all you Casserly's, go ahead a draft at other positions, well be picking the top 10 often.

I don't think their is any question we could use line help. The arguments here are generally based on at what point we should address the line and what quality and quantity are available in this draft. Its not just about need, its about being smart with your picks and getting the most out of them. We can look back over the last few years( with hindsight) and see what appear to be questionable decisions. We can, however, only speculate about the future and make informed decisions. I think we need o-line, but I also think we don't neccessarily need to make that our only priority in this draft. What is the time difference between the best lines ability to hold and ours? I'll bet on avg. it is not much more than a second or two. I have screamed "throw the ball!" at David Carr on my TV screen longer than that sometimes. I think most of these post have been built around the first pick, and if we do not get it, I would probably argue a different strategy per pick we fall. Irregardless of where we pick though, I believe(barring injury,and he does indeed declare) the first overall pick will be Reggie Bush.

SESupergenius
12-19-2005, 10:02 AM
It may be very well that we don't get the first pick and still be in the hunt for Bush. There are a few sorry teams that would like Lienart and if they have the 1st pick they very well could pick him. I don't mind taking the best talent avail with our 1st pick because really every position on this team could use an upgrade. But we absolutely HAVE to draft a lineman in the 2nd or 3rd rounds, which is what we should have don't last year.

Hervoyel
12-19-2005, 10:06 AM
I'm not as concerned about drafting a lineman as you are but I'd welcome seeing one taken in the second round. I do not think that players like Weary, Brown, Wand, or even Pitts have been coached/developed as well as they should have but I also think that Weigert is probably gone soon (he's hurt all the time it seems like) and McKinney is probably going out the door too due to his cost.

Even if we assume that our own drafting of linemen hasn't been absolutely terrible we're going to need to restock at least one big ugly this year and we should probably do it in the draft and fairly high up. Do it right, get a good one.

texan279
12-19-2005, 10:56 AM
I have been saying it since preseason, but I really want to see more of Mornecy. Sure he looked a little off in preseason but I still want to see him get more carries.