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David's Busted Carr
12-16-2005, 10:34 AM
I really think with our first pick we need a DIFFERENCE maker on OFFENSE. If for some reason we don't get Bush (either don't get the #1 pick or trade down). What do you guys think about drafting Vince Young to replace Carr?

Since we are going to have to rebuild, we may as well start from the ground up. Vince would give our offense another dimension and would take pressure off our Oline with his running ability. And don't tell me he can't pass at least as well as Carr. Carr rarely completes any downfield passes.

Decline Carr's option, let him go start fresh somewhere else and hand the reins to Vince. He's a hometown kid so would put fans in the seats and he's very exciting to watch. You have Vince, DD, AJ, & draft a solid TE and that's a formidable offense! Better than what Atlanta has with Vick and look how they win every year.

I think we could trade our #1 or #2 pick back to 7-8 and draft Vince while picking up 3-4 extra picks in the process. Not a bad deal!!! This of course all hinges on Vince coming out, but if the Texans expressed interest I bet he would...

MorKnolle
12-16-2005, 10:45 AM
Drafting Young and releasing Carr would set our team back another 4 years. Young is not that much better of a runner than Carr is and Carr has a much stronger arm. Having a scrambling QB doesn't necessarily take pressure off the OLine, sometimes it probably actually adds to it. If you have a pocket passer, the OL knows he will stay in the pocket and deliver the ball, so all the OLine has to worry about is creating that pocket. If they have a running QB like Michael Vick, then the OLine has to worry about him getting jittery in the pocket and dancing around everywhere and the Line will have a hard time knowing where the QB will be and trying to stave off the pass rushers. As much as the "we must draft Reggie" parade had gotten out of control, it was nice not having to hear Vince's name in the last month in reference to wearing a Texans jersey.

Vinny
12-16-2005, 10:56 AM
Young is not that much better of a runner than Carr is and Carr has a much stronger arm.Ridiculous sentence of the year. Carr has zero running back skills. Young as a runner is in a totally different class of player and it is silly to think they are even remotely similar when it comes to running the ball. I'll agree with the balance of your other point that states that running QB's don't equate to a team having less sacks.

I'd love for us to have the balls to draft Young. I'm not sure McNair and this org has them though.

Kaiser Toro
12-16-2005, 11:00 AM
I love VY in burnt Orange and dislike Carr in Liberty Blue. But at this point in time I would not do a switcheroo. VY has progressed leaps and bounds this year as a signal caller and passer. But our need is elsewhere and VY could use one more year in school (admittedly this may be part UT homer). Early on in the year I thought VY was an early second round selection, but I would put him in the middle of the first right now - pending interviews, mental/physical tests, background checks etc.

Vinny
12-16-2005, 11:02 AM
If he comes out he is a top 10 pick (could be top 5 imo). Bank it. He is a better prospect than Steve McNair was coming out of Alcorn St.

Porky
12-16-2005, 11:11 AM
I think VY needs to go back to UT one more year. If he does that, and continues to polish his game, he may be picked #1 overall next year. This year, he could be anywhere from around 5 to 15 imo. He has the skills, but just needs more polish and work on his passing fundemantels. I sure as heck wouldn't mind seeing him in steel blue. :drool:

Kaiser Toro
12-16-2005, 11:11 AM
If he comes out he is a top 10 pick (could be top 5 imo). Bank it. He is a better prospect than Steve McNair was coming out of Alcorn St.

I can dream can't I:
Pick up two year option on Carr and send him and our #1 to the Raiders for their #1 and Gallery and take VY.

Vinny
12-16-2005, 11:14 AM
I think VY needs to go back to UT one more year. If he does that, and continues to polish his game, he may be picked #1 overall next year. This year, he could be anywhere from around 5 to 15 imo. He has the skills, but just needs more polish and work on his passing fundemantels. I sure as heck wouldn't mind seeing him in steel blue. :drool:Young led the Nation in passer rating this year....can he ever top that again? How does a QB with bad fundamentals lead the nation in passer rating? Kyle Boller has great mechanics and a beautiful delivery but can't hit the broad side of a barn....but Young leads the nation in passer rating with an unconventional delivery but he needs help with his passes?

beerlover
12-16-2005, 11:15 AM
If he comes out he is a top 10 pick (could be top 5 imo). Bank it.

If he comes out you are probably right, however stay in UT & be like a God one more year then the 1st pick in the 07 draft, possibly with a pair of national championships + heismen.

He is a better prospect than Steve McNair was coming out of Alcorn St.

Vince Young will be a much better known prospect than Steve McNair was, but at the time that was a great pick by the Houston Oilers:)

Vinny
12-16-2005, 11:20 AM
If he comes out you are probably right, however stay in UT & be like a God one more year then the 1st pick in the 07 draft, possibly with a pair of national championships + heismen. or he could tear his acl and have to rehab for two years for a full recovery. If all he needed was one year to work with good QB coaches the NFL is the place for that...not UT. They are the ones who changed his delivery to the semi-side arm style.

David's Busted Carr
12-16-2005, 11:29 AM
Drafting Young and releasing Carr would set our team back another 4 years.

No offense. But how can you set back a 1-15 team any further?

Vinny
12-16-2005, 11:29 AM
Vince Young will be a much better known prospect than Steve McNair was, but at the time that was a great pick by the Houston Oilers:)McNair was pretty well known then and was a top 5-10 consensus player...

http://www.bcsports.org/images/test1.jpg

David's Busted Carr
12-16-2005, 11:31 AM
And here is some more food for thought. IF Reeves makes the decision or has heavy influence in making the decision, he is the guy he drafted Mike Vick while he was in Atlanta!

beerlover
12-16-2005, 11:37 AM
or he could tear his acl and have to rehab for two years for a full recovery. If all he needed was one year to work with good QB coaches the NFL is the place for that...not UT. They are the ones who changed his delivery to the semi-side arm style.

the NFL? like the Houston Texans? they have really developed David Carr & transformed his semi-side arm style & kept him from not taken a beating:brickwall

however I do believe that if Vince Young where to come out this year he might be drafted into a better situation & not one of the worst teams in the NFL. the Arizona Cardinals for instance (the Texans opponent this week) would be an excellent fit with two outstanding WR's, Kurt Warner as mentor & that crisp desert air I could see Vince turn that team into a playoff contender next year:cool:

Vinny
12-16-2005, 11:53 AM
Why does everyone think that Young will change his mechanics just because he stays in College? What makes anyone think that Texas even wants to change them? Why does he have to change them anyway? He was the highest rated passer in the NCAA's with this style this season. Most of the guys he was rated higher than probably have a beautiful prototype overhand delivery. Bernie Kosar was shorter than Young and had more success than Carr does with his side arm style. I'd love to bring him in and bring him along slowly like McNair was with the Oilers.

JDizzle
12-16-2005, 12:00 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Detroit ditches Harrington and fights for Young if he declares for the draft. That way, Roy and Vince can reunite without Chance Mock screwing things up ... lol. So much talent on the offensive side of the ball there being wasted with a 2-man slingshot under center. Hey, that sounds familiar ...

Kaiser Toro
12-16-2005, 12:03 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Detroit ditches Harrington and fights for Young if he declares for the draft. That way, Roy and Vince can reunite without Chance Mock screwing things up ... lol. So much talent on the offensive side of the ball there being wasted with a 2-man slingshot under center. Hey, that sounds familiar ...

Not that VY has control over it, but do you think he wants to be reunited with an extremely talented receiver that still refuses to finish and sell routes and is allergic to blocking? UT got better when Williams left.

Huge
12-16-2005, 01:55 PM
They are the ones who changed his delivery to the semi-side arm style.
Vince has thrown side-arm since high school. It's just gotten progressively worse because he hasn't devoted the amount of time and attention it would take to correct it.

While it's true he led the country in passing effienciency, he's still not an accurate passer even though he's close to being "good enough". I wouldn't bother with trying to change his delivery because I know it'd be a lost cause (see: David Carr after 4 years in the league). QB's will throw however feels natural to them. No amount of coaching will change that.

But if he did learn to throw over the top, it'd be scary. His accuracy as well as velocity would improve by leaps and bounds.

Vinny
12-16-2005, 01:57 PM
Andre Ware talks about how the Longhorns have changed his delivery every time he speaks about it and I have seen it in other places as well.

Huge
12-16-2005, 02:04 PM
They tried to change his delivery to one that's over the top. Several Spring practice reports from the past two years mentioned this (from Rivals.com).

metalmike
12-16-2005, 02:44 PM
First of all, forget about Young being in this year's draft. He has a heisman and a national championship (if not a 2nd) to win next year. So forget about Young unless you want to throw next year away as well (which nobody wants).

Jack Bauer
12-16-2005, 02:46 PM
First of all, forget about Young being in this year's draft. He has a heisman and a national championship (if not a 2nd) to win next year. So forget about Young unless you want to throw next year away as well (which nobody wants).

All the whispers I am hearing is that he will come out if his draft slot is acceptable.

metalmike
12-16-2005, 02:47 PM
Plus, how many more wins would we have this year with Young? 2 maybe 3 at the most. We need a lot more than a good QB. We have a decent QB already. What can you do with a 7th grade o-line?

metalmike
12-16-2005, 02:47 PM
All the whispers I am hearing is that he will come out if his draft slot is acceptable.
Where did you hear this from?

Jack Bauer
12-16-2005, 02:54 PM
Where did you hear this from?

He is spinning his earlier statement that he is DEFINITELY coming back...

Many places, but here is one:

Vince going Pro? (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/121505dnspoyoung.d13dffc.html)

AUSTIN -- Texas quarterback Vince Young sounds like someone who hasn’t made up his mind about whether to return to UT for his final year of eligibility.

When asked Wednesday if the outcome of the Bowl Championship Series national title game at the Rose Bowl on Jan. 4 against USC could impact his decision regarding next year, Young said, “Somewhat.”

“I haven’t gotten any word yet from the NFL guys about how they feel about me, so that’s why I say my decision is basically to come back and be with my teammates,” Young said.

Kaiser Toro
12-16-2005, 02:57 PM
Plus, how many more wins would we have this year with Young? 2 maybe 3 at the most. We need a lot more than a good QB. We have a decent QB already.

I will say this you are right. We need a leader and I would argue that VY is a leader where as DC is not.

metalmike
12-16-2005, 03:00 PM
I will say this you are right. We need a leader and I would argue that VY is a leader where as DC is not.
Totally agree with that

bigcarlos
12-16-2005, 10:12 PM
Ridiculous sentence of the year. Carr has zero running back skills. Young as a runner is in a totally different class of player and it is silly to think they are even remotely similar when it comes to running the ball. .

Imagine those two running a 40 yard dash

I'd love for us to have the balls to draft Young. I'm not sure McNair and this org has them though.
I hope Bob has balls of steel

MorKnolle
12-16-2005, 11:01 PM
I doubt Vince and David's 40 yard times are very different at all, Vince is probably a little faster but not much.

texplayer2
12-16-2005, 11:09 PM
Maybe David Carr has been manhandled since he got here and not been allowed to develope as a leader. He can only audible to a run? Not to say I wouldn't like to see a backfield with Reggie Bush, Vince Young, DD, AJ, and maybe Randle El. You would have two or three options to run the ball, three or four options to catch the ball, and two or three options to throw the ball. One play you could line Vince up at Qb, next it could be El and vince could shoot out to WR or RB. Talk about confusing the Def. You could improve your options by having players that are not type cast into one position. This would be assuming Bush this year, Young somehow next year, and trade/free agent El.

Youngstown Colt
12-16-2005, 11:35 PM
If he comes out he is a top 10 pick (could be top 5 imo). Bank it. He is a better prospect than Steve McNair was coming out of Alcorn St.Completely disagree. McNair was a deadly accurate thrower with great running abilities not far behind young. People seem to forget that McNair was a finalist for the heisman, and he was a 1-AA player.

I watched him many times in college, and once live, and he was a far more polished pro QB than Young is.

MorKnolle
12-16-2005, 11:38 PM
Completely disagree. McNair was a deadly accurate thrower with great running abilities not far behind young. People seem to forget that McNair was a finalist for the heisman, and he was a 1-AA player.

I watched him many times in college, and once live, and he was a far more polished pro QB than Young is.

Are 1-AA players eligible for Heisman?

Jack Bauer
12-20-2005, 03:12 PM
Are 1-AA players eligible for Heisman?

Yes. I know McNair was a finalist for the Heisman Trophy.

bigcarlos
12-20-2005, 06:43 PM
Are 1-AA players eligible for Heisman?
Didnt Andre Ware win it

Tale Gator
12-20-2005, 07:09 PM
Vince needs to hang one more year and work on that release -- however if he has a monster NCG (and a win) look for him to turn pro.

MorKnolle
12-20-2005, 07:25 PM
Didnt Andre Ware win it

Andre Ware was at University of Houston which was not 1-AA.

texplayer2
12-20-2005, 07:28 PM
Didnt Andre Ware win it

Andre Ware played for the Coogs. Sometimes they play like 1AA, but they are not.

bigcarlos
12-21-2005, 06:10 PM
Andre Ware played for the Coogs. Sometimes they play like 1AA, but they are not.
Okay

texplayer2
12-22-2005, 12:32 AM
Former Cougar and 1989 Heisman Trophy winner Andre Ware injures left shoulder, retires from NFL.

Texans86
12-22-2005, 04:03 PM
Vince Young is a great prospect for the 2007 draft, but I doubt if he goes out this year. Mack Brown has an uncanny ability for keeping players for their final year of eligibility. About his passing, he has a strong arm, but he is somewhat inaccurate past after 20-30 yards. Some of you will point to his game winning pass in the Ohio State game, but that was more a great catch than a great throw. He is amazingly fast, even though his 6'5" frame makes him look a lot slower than he is. His passer rating was high this year because he was able to make short passes and have the receivers break out for major yardage. Also, the University has arguably the best OL in college football, which obviously helps the quarterback. Also, the triple threat of Selvin Young, Ramonce Taylor and Jamaal Charles helped take pressure off of Young. Another positive on Young is that Texas often operates out of the shotgun, so he does not have to get used to that in the NFL. I do think one more year in the college ranks will not only improve his skills, but he will probably end up with a better draft position (Quarterbacks routinely go first, except for this year), and he might even get a Heisman if he repeats this year's performance.

Ryan
12-22-2005, 11:47 PM
Drafting Young and releasing Carr would set our team back another 4 years. Young is not that much better of a runner than Carr is and Carr has a much stronger arm. Having a scrambling QB doesn't necessarily take pressure off the OLine, sometimes it probably actually adds to it. If you have a pocket passer, the OL knows he will stay in the pocket and deliver the ball, so all the OLine has to worry about is creating that pocket. If they have a running QB like Michael Vick, then the OLine has to worry about him getting jittery in the pocket and dancing around everywhere and the Line will have a hard time knowing where the QB will be and trying to stave off the pass rushers. As much as the "we must draft Reggie" parade had gotten out of control, it was nice not having to hear Vince's name in the last month in reference to wearing a Texans jersey.

we know how well the falcons do with their athletic QB known as Michael Vick.

Ryan
12-22-2005, 11:49 PM
No offense. But how can you set back a 1-15 team any further?

true. Very True!!

Huge
12-23-2005, 04:44 PM
Another year in college is not going to do anything for him. The argument how he's "not ready for the NFL" is used way too much. Well no kidding he's not ready for the NFL. Neither was Alex Smith, Carson Palmer, Peyton Manning and every other QB that was taken first overall (or even drafted). Need proof? Look at their QB stats from their rookie seasons. That alone tells you they weren't ready for the NFL. But you know what? There's nothing they could've done about it. Peyton Manning could've spent 7 years in college and he still wouldn't have been ready. The jump from college to that level at that position is too difficult to prepare for in college. The only thing that is going to get you "ready for the NFL" is being in the NFL.

Another year at Texas is not going to improve his accuracy or his mechanics (they are what they are). It's not going to improve his ability to read defenses because those aren't the defenses he's going to see at the next level.

There are three reasons to stay in school:

1. You want to.
2. You want to finish your degree.
3. Improve your draft position.

I can see how he'd want to stay. Austin is an awesome place to be especially if you're the BMOC. If Texas loses to USC, then he still would have something to play for next year.

But I don't see him improving his draft stock much. Some think he'd easily be a top 10 pick this year. It's pretty tough to improve when you're already that high. Would he still be a top 10 pick next year? That's a roll of the dice. Jamaal Brimmer (SS, UNLV) could've come out two years ago as a Jr. and would've probably gone in the top 3 rounds. Instead, he came back for his Sr. season and ended up not being drafted at all.

All that said, as a Texas fan, I hope he comes back. If he leaves because they beat USC and he's got nothing left to accomplish, then I can live with that.

bigcarlos
12-23-2005, 10:49 PM
Andre Ware played for the Coogs. Sometimes they play like 1AA, but they are not.
Kansas was an uneven match for Coogie High. Grambling would of been a better match up for UH:redtowel:

Mightymike
01-07-2006, 12:01 PM
I doubt Vince and David's 40 yard times are very different at all, Vince is probably a little faster but not much.

are u serious? that is the carziest thing iv'e heard in a while

Kaiser Toro
01-07-2006, 12:03 PM
are u serious? that is the carziest thing iv'e heard in a while

Carr ran a 4.67 40 in 2002

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2002/profiles/carr_david.htm

tulexan
01-07-2006, 12:05 PM
That is pretty much what I thought. Vince is a fast runner, but he doesn't have world class speed.

Huge
01-07-2006, 07:19 PM
It's not his speed that makes him an effective runner...like most runners that are effective.

edo783
01-07-2006, 09:59 PM
It's not his speed that makes him an effective runner...like most runners that are effective.

He has REAL good speed about loww 4.4s IMO, but it's his balance, strength and elusivness that makes him such a good runner.

stevo3883
01-07-2006, 10:08 PM
He has REAL good speed about loww 4.4s IMO, but it's his balance, strength and elusivness that makes him such a good runner.

yeah he has a great ability to have tacklers just slide right off him.


can you seriously think of someone that ran like him? we can compare reggie bush to gale sayers and what not. but vince doesnt really have a comparison from the past.

stevo3883
01-08-2006, 12:06 AM
How about a guy named Randall Cunningham?

Unbelievable.


"that RAN like him" as in running style.


unbelievable

tulexan
01-08-2006, 12:12 AM
Daunte Culpepper runs a lot and a lot of people have trouble tackling him. Probably because he is bigger than most LB's. But he is about 30 lbs bigger than Vince and he is out for the season because he took a big hit. He also has a howitzer for an arm which Vince does not.

Fiddy
01-08-2006, 12:22 AM
Daunte Culpepper runs a lot and a lot of people have trouble tackling him. Probably because he is bigger than most LB's. But he is about 30 lbs bigger than Vince and he is out for the season because he took a big hit. He also has a howitzer for an arm which Vince does not. Difference is that VY has NEVER, I repeat, NEVER taken a big hit. He is so light on his feet that he'll move is body in a way that will avoid him from taking a big hit.

On his arm: I found a clip and posted it in another thread. It was from 4 years ago in a High School all star game where he threw the ball 60+ yards in the air after a scramble to have it dropped by the WR. This no arm thing is really getting old. Now if you are saying that Culpepper has a stronger arm, I'll agree. He may have the strongest in the league. But to say VY doesnt have one isnt true.

Grid
01-08-2006, 12:25 AM
Eh.. getting it down the field isnt really the measuring stick for a strong arm.. its about velocity and arch.

If ya watch the rose bowl again... Matt Lienart has a weak arm.. and its apparent because every time he tries to throw deep..the ball spends so much time in the air that the fact DBs for Texas are just waiting for it.

Fiddy
01-08-2006, 12:28 AM
Eh.. getting it down the field isnt really the measuring stick for a strong arm.. its about velocity and arch.

If ya watch the rose bowl again... Matt Lienart has a weak arm.. and its apparent because every time he tries to throw deep..the ball spends so much time in the air that the fact DBs for Texas are just waiting for it. Depends on how you look at it. If you can throw the ball 60+ yards down the field then it's gonna be easier to zip the ball to the WR on a 10 yard slant route.

disaacks3
01-08-2006, 12:29 AM
Difference is that VY has NEVER, I repeat, NEVER taken a big hit. He is so light on his feet that he'll move is body in a way that will avoid him from taking a big hit. If Michael Vick wasn't "light enough on his feet" to avoid taking a hit IN THE NFL, then there's no way that Vince will be.

C'mon people what's next? Vince for the messiah? :ok:

No potential pick is:

A) A Sure thing.
B) Resistant to chance, injury, etc.
C) Guaranteed to be successful at the next level.

Fiddy
01-08-2006, 12:31 AM
If Michael Vick wasn't "light enough on his feet" to avoid taking a hit IN THE NFL, then there's no way that Vince will be. Vick, however, took a few big hits in college too if I remember correctly...

tulexan
01-08-2006, 12:37 AM
Difference is that VY has NEVER, I repeat, NEVER taken a big hit. He is so light on his feet that he'll move is body in a way that will avoid him from taking a big hit.


Michael Vick is just as light on his feet, if not more, and he has been sidelined several times due to taking big hits.

Vince will be going up against LB's and even some DE's who are bigger and just as fast as him in the NFL. There isn't really anything you can do if your LT or RT blows the block and lets Julius Peppers get a clean hit on our blind side.

He also may be able to throw a deep ball, but the difference is that Culpepper, Vick, Leftwich, and all of the other strong armed QB's can throw the ball 40 yards on a rope and probably 60 or 70 yards still with some velocity. I've yet to see Vince do that.

rellufnalla
01-08-2006, 12:19 PM
Watching Vince lope over Katy defense in 2001 was unbelievable. Everybody said he wouldn't be able to do that in college ball.

The UT coaches didn't take long to learn that if they got out of his way, he could prove them wrong.

Next level, same story.

The Texans put Kubiak and Young on board - they can have what's in my wallet. I will be in the stands every game.

Huge
01-08-2006, 02:53 PM
Daunte Culpepper runs a lot and a lot of people have trouble tackling him. Probably because he is bigger than most LB's. But he is about 30 lbs bigger than Vince and he is out for the season because he took a big hit. He also has a howitzer for an arm which Vince does not.
Culpepper is out for the season because he tore ligaments in his knee after somebody fell on it. Hardly what I'd consider a "big hit".

If you're going to use Culpepper as an example of why teams should avoid QBs that run, you might as well say teams should avoid RBs because of what happened to Terrell Davis, Gayle Sayers, and a plethora of other RBs that have had similar injuries.

While they're at it, they should all avoid going to the Pro Bowl. Just ask Robert Edwards what that can do for your career.

Kaiser Toro
01-08-2006, 02:55 PM
Culpepper is out for the season because he tore ligaments in his knee after somebody fell on it. Hardly what I'd consider a "big hit".

If you're going to use Culpepper as an example of why teams should avoid QBs that run, you might as well say teams should avoid RBs because of what happened to Terrell Davis, Gayle Sayers, and a plethora of other RBs that have had similar injuries.

While they're at it, they should all avoid going to the Pro Bowl. Just ask Robert Edwards what that can do for your career.

Nice. Especially the Robert Edwards throw in.

Huge
01-08-2006, 02:57 PM
Other QBs that have missed a lot of time during the season:

Brian Griese
Byron Leftwich
Rex Grossman
Marc Bulger
Chad Pennington
Kurt Warner
Ben Roethlisberger

Would you classify those guys as "running QBs"? I wouldn't. But yet they all had injuries this past season.

How is this possible?

Honoring Earl 34
01-08-2006, 03:21 PM
:redtowel: Dan Marino had knee and achilles problems . Marino was not a runner .

Janus3
01-08-2006, 03:36 PM
yeah he has a great ability to have tacklers just slide right off him.


can you seriously think of someone that ran like him? we can compare reggie bush to gale sayers and what not. but vince doesnt really have a comparison from the past.

randall cunnigham, though cunnigham was better.

Janus3
01-08-2006, 03:37 PM
here's hoping the texans don't take matt jones...err, vince young.

Tale Gator
01-08-2006, 03:38 PM
randall cunnigham, though cunnigham was better.

How was he better coming into the league than Vince? :confused:

Janus3
01-08-2006, 03:40 PM
How was he better coming into the league than Vince? :confused:

true, was comparing and nfl player to a college player which is stupid. have to wait till young becomes a bust to make that statement true.

Tale Gator
01-08-2006, 03:43 PM
have to wait till young becomes a bust to make that statement true.

http://tinypic.com/jz6xxw.jpg

No doubt - don't want to get ahead of yourself.