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WaylonJennings67
12-14-2005, 10:48 PM
Ken Stabler should be in the HOF. True or false?



This fan says TRUE.

mexican_texan
12-15-2005, 01:24 AM
There is an Anti-Raiders club on the HOF comittee. Wasn't Stabler a bust everywhere but Oakland?

StarStruck
12-15-2005, 02:11 AM
I never considered Stabler a bust. I recall when he retired the first time, Bud Adams made a comment about being glad that Giff Neilson wouldn't be reading the playbook by the lights on the juke box. But, after injury #goodness knows how many, the Oiler management went to Stabler's yatch somewhere in Alabama to convince him to come out of retirement.

Kaiser Toro
12-15-2005, 08:54 AM
I will admit that the Snake was one of the guys that I loved the watch during his era and indeed was one of the best at the time. But I do not see him stacking up against the best when you look at the last thirty years that I have been watching football. The game has indeed changed and the criteria is arbitrary, but I just do not see him there.

infantrycak
12-15-2005, 10:21 AM
Dude had eleven years where he attempted more than 100 passes. In just 4 of those did he have more TD's than INT's. Good player with moments of greatness, but not a hall of famer.

Corrosion
12-15-2005, 10:56 AM
There is an Anti-Raiders club on the HOF comittee. Wasn't Stabler a bust everywhere but Oakland?


No Stabler played pretty well during his short time here (1980 and 81) w/ the Oilers .... In 1980 he lead the team to the play-offs .Ironicly they lost to his former team the Raiders . The Third consecutive season the Oilers had been eliminated from the play-offs by the eventual Super Bowl winner . (Pittsburgh Steelers in both 1978 and 1979).

His first year stats while here in Houston ...while not stellar numbers were enough with Earl Campbells rushing attack to propel the team to the wild card game , a loss which resulted in the firing of Bum Phillups as HC and GM. At which point Ladd Herzeg was promoted to Executive Vice-President and General Manager of the Oilers.

Stablers stats for that season ...

457att 293comp 3202yards 13td 28int

I am of the opinion that Stabler should be in the HoF based upon the way he changed the position . He was like Elway and Vick long before they thought about playing in the NFL . For a player like him to have a 15 year career (1970-84) with all the big hits he took is something as well ... QB's in that time period were not protected as they are today .

:twocents:

MorKnolle
12-15-2005, 11:05 AM
Stablers stats for that season ...

457att 293comp 3202yards 13td 28int


I'll be the first to admit that I was never an Oilers fan and don't know a whole lot about Stabler's career, but 13 TDs and 28 INTs is a horrible ratio so hopefully he had better years somewhere else in his career.

infantrycak
12-15-2005, 11:24 AM
He was like Elway and Vick long before they thought about playing in the NFL .

Elway and Vick?--in what way?

aj.
12-15-2005, 01:50 PM
I could make a good case for him or against him but the case against him is typically built around stats which doesn't tell the whole story with this guy. Unfortunately that's what the nominating committee tends to focus on these days. I learned a lot about the nominating committee focus and politics when McClain was going through the process of helping Elvin Bethea get in the Hall.

During his heyday, Stabler was one of the most feared QBs in the league IMO and in the mid-70's his name belonged in the converstation with Staubach, Tarkenton, Grogan, Anderson, and Bradshaw. I hated playing against those guys. Snake was a king of the two minute drill ... an Elway before his time in that regard.

I watched a lot of the old AFL and young AFC and if you asked me which name didn't belong: Dawson, Griese, or Stabler, I'd be more inclined to say Griese. Stabler wasn't the pure passer that Dawson was but he was arguably more clutch than Griese who was more of an auto-pilot in his commanding of the Phins.

Stabler's success was over a shorter period - he led his team to a SB victory over the Vikes in January '77 - but he didn't have the gaudy stats over the long haul - he even had bad stats several years - and that's where the anti-argument creeps in.

Stabler was a bit of a rebel (in a different way than Namath) and that hurt him. He wasn't real media friendly and was more likely to tell a reporter to go to hell than give him an interview, so it's not surprising that he never ended up with someone to argue his cause (see McClain and Bethea).

Tark, Dan Fouts and Jim Kelly are in without rings, Fouts without a SB appearance (prolific passers all - but that wasn't Snake). Steve Young first ballot? Need I mention Griese again?

I can probably come up with more good reasons why Snake should be in than out so I'll go along with IN.

Any of the other older folks on the board remember the Diamondback club across the street from Almeda Mall? Snake owned the place and I saw him in there more than once - checking on his investment of course :-) He didn't appear to be the ladies man that Pastorini was but he was a gool ole souther boy and if you wanted to drink and talk about speedboat racing he was all over it.. He still has a home in Nassau Bay btw.

Corrosion
12-15-2005, 03:08 PM
457att 293comp 3202yards 13td 28int


I'll be the first to admit that I was never an Oilers fan and don't know a whole lot about Stabler's career, but 13 TDs and 28 INTs is a horrible ratio so hopefully he had better years somewhere else in his career.



An interesting stat i heard on 610 last night .... the Oilers had TWENTY consecutive seasons in which they threw more INTS than TD's .

If you look back at the stats of some of the QB's from that era and before you will notice that the majority did throw a lot of picks . It was a totally different game back then ,

Take Steeler HoF'r Bobby Lane , 16 seasons in the NFL and only TWO of those years he threw more TD's than Int's ...

Another Steeler HoF'r , Terry Bradshaw had a total of 14 years in the NFL with only half of those did Bradshaw throw more TD's than INT's and out of those 7 seasons three of those the ratio was within two .


Lets add Jim Plunkett to this list . Fifteen seasons in the NFL and only Three of those did he have more TD's than INT's

The Legendary Joe Namath had only TWO seasons out of THIRTEEN in which he threw more TD's than INTS .

http://www.footballcardgallery.com/1973+Topps/487/

1974 and 76 were probably his best statistical seasons .

By modern standards these numbers dont add up ..... But put the guy's on the field and they were all Winners . And how many other QB's lead their teams to 5 consecutive AFC Title Games ?



He was like Elway and Vick long before they thought about playing in the NFL .

Elway and Vick?--in what way?



What i was refering to was the elusivenss of Elway or Vick .... No he didnt have the same class of arm as Elway (but he was just as good in the two minute drill) nor the same type of elusiveness as Vick does today but in his time there were few QB's that could match him in that department at least early in his career .... by the time he got to Houston he was somewhat limited in mobility .


Tark, Dan Fouts and Jim Kelly are in without rings, Fouts without a SB appearance (prolific passers all - but that wasn't Snake). Steve Young first ballot? Need I mention Griese again?

That about sums it up for me

infantrycak
12-15-2005, 03:30 PM
What i was refering to was the elusivenss of Elway or Vick .... No he didnt have the same class of arm as Elway (but he was just as good in the two minute drill) nor the same type of elusiveness as Vick does today but in his time there were few QB's that could match him in that department at least early in his career .... by the time he got to Houston he was somewhat limited in mobility .

I can't even throw Elway and Vick together, much less throw Stabler in the same category. Stabler was elusive behind the line of scrimmage not as a rusher--on 118 career rushing attempts he ended up with a total of 93 rushing yds (15 total seasons). Vick has horrible pocket awareness and a tendency to become a rusher at the drop of a hat--the opposite of Stabler--in his 5th season Vick has rushed 385 times for 2746 yds. Elway was in between the two IMO. Now Fran Tarkenton...

Corrosion
12-15-2005, 07:21 PM
. Stabler was elusive behind the line of scrimmage


this is what I meant .... not that he was the rusher that Vick or Elway was but that he had the same type of elusiveness .... be it in the pocket or not.....

aj.
12-15-2005, 08:09 PM
I can't even throw Elway and Vick together, much less throw Stabler in the same category.

I don't know if you're talking strictly about running, if so ignore the rest of this but Stabler was the king of the NFL two minute drill when Elway was still eating tater tots in the HS cafeteria. Stats won't tell you that but their games were very much alike in that regard, i.e., leadership and execution in crunch time.

Kaiser Toro
12-15-2005, 08:19 PM
I don't know if you're talking strictly about running, if so ignore the rest of this but Stabler was the king of the NFL two minute drill when Elway was still eating tater tots in the HS cafeteria. Stats won't tell you that but their games were very much alike in that regard, i.e., leadership and execution in crunch time.

Before Samkon Gado there was the Snake, just the opposite.

Corrosion
12-16-2005, 12:21 PM
Too many people look purely at stats to evaluate players today , there is a lot more to this game than pure stats ....

As for the INT ratio .... the game was so much different in that era I dont really think its part of considering if he belongs . As ive shown above there are MANY HOF Qb's from that time period and before that had horrible (By todays standard) int/td ratio's ... and those guy's were considered to be the best in the game .

sakebomb
12-16-2005, 02:40 PM
13 TDS and 28 INT?

I thought we were talking about Carr but then I realized that 13 TD's was to many.

Jack Bauer
12-16-2005, 03:05 PM
Look up the stats of the "great" QB's of the 70's and you will see similar stats. High % passing really didn't come into the NFL till the WCO invaded the NFL via Paul Brown, Bill Walsh and Sid Gillman. Football passing offenses were mostly vertical passing attacks with a high number of turnovers back then. In the 'did you know' department, Bob Griesie only attempted 7 passes in his Super Bowl win over the Vikings at Rice Stadium here in Houston. The game has changed quite a bit in my lifetime.

I didn't start watching football until 1978 and it has changed quite a bit since then, but I never would have guessed that Griese on attempted 7 passes in the SB! Amazing.

aj.
12-16-2005, 03:31 PM
They didn't need to throw the ball in that game. They rushed for 200 yards from what I recall and totally dominated the Vikes on the ground. Griese averaged something like 15 or 16 pass attempts per game that season so it wasn't unusual or unexpected for that team to grind it out. They had two guys - Csonka and Mercury Morris - who rushed for 2000 yards combined that season - and that was in 14 games when 1000 yards meant something - plus they had another pretty good running back that season named Jim Kiick who was just starting to come into his own. Did I say that Bob Griese is probably the most undeserving QB in the HOF? Interceptions and all, give me Stabler over Griese any day of the week.

Just looked up the '73 Phins and they were 23rd in the NFL in passing yards and 24th in the NFL in passing attempts that year and they won the SB (there were only 26 teams in the league then). They won a championship that year primarily because of a great running game and a great pass defense.

aj.
12-16-2005, 04:44 PM
well... in that era the wco wasn't born yet but a ton of teams threw to their backs as much as or more than WRs. That's definitely 'short and controlled' but to backs instead of WRs, which at least in theory should have helped the completion percentage. A good example is that same Vikes team who dinked and dunked it down the field in those days, throwing short passes to Chuck Foreman and Ed Marinaro letting them get the yac. A lot of other teams did it as well, e.g., Cowboys, Rams, Bengals - who were all division champs a time or two back then.

Back to the topic, Stabler HOF? = Yes IMO.

Kaiser Toro
12-16-2005, 04:51 PM
well...my point was that the short controlled passing game wasn't as ingrained in the NFL as it is now. That's why passing completion %'s weren’t as high and INT %'s were generaly higher on some of the better QB's back then. The game was much more run oriented and the passing game was much more down field then.

Do not forget that CB's could go out on the field with a net. One of my favorite football cards was of Lester Hayes with his hands dripping of stick em.

Kaiser Toro
12-16-2005, 04:53 PM
http://www.motivational-celebrity-speakers.com/players/lesterhayes.html

Lester Hayes used to dip both of his hands in so much Stick 'Em, if he shook your hand, he might rip your skin right off.
One of the most skilled shut-down corners of the '70's, Hayes put opposing receivers on lock while maintaining the Raider mystic of generally acting like the baddest mo-fo to ever step on turf

HomeBred_Texan
12-16-2005, 05:00 PM
Any of the other older folks on the board remember the Diamondback club across the street from Almeda Mall? Snake owned the place and I saw him in there more than once - checking on his investment of course :-) He didn't appear to be the ladies man that Pastorini was but he was a gool ole souther boy and if you wanted to drink and talk about speedboat racing he was all over it.. He still has a home in Nassau Bay btw.
He also lived in a condo in Clear Lake. Nice pad... Been to that club allot of times. Remember the live tree growing up in the middle of the club? Was unusual, but hey, Yee Haaa...

When you think about QB's of the 70's and compare them to QB's of today, it is not apples to apples. The rules have changed. Late hits, etc...

Back in them days we had fewer teams so that made them much better. LB's like Ham and Lambert would put a hurt on em and call em sissy's for not being able to take the pounding. A QB's life in the NFL was short lived in the 70's due to malicious hits and poundings they took, all legal. Rarely threw the ball without taking a punch from a def lineman or a line backer. But that is just the way it was.

I remember when the rules started to change and Jack Lambert from Pitt stood up and actually said, I think all QB's should wear dresses..........

aj.
12-16-2005, 05:08 PM
I argued against a 'stats focused' basis for HOF assessment in my first post in this thread so I'm not quite sure who you are trying to explain that to - but thanks anyway.

My point was that in those days (early to mid 70's) many really good teams threw to their backs more than they threw to their WRs - which in theory should have helped improve the QB completion percentage. The backs ran the short routes, the WRs ran the intermediate to long routes. It wasnt' entirely a downfield passing era which was the assertion. Many teams ran short - controlled passing games, only with their backs and not WRs.

There are exceptions of course -- the Raiders being the most obvious.

Back to the topic, Stabler HOF? = Yes IMO.

aj.
12-16-2005, 05:10 PM
He also lived in a condo in Clear Lake. Nice pad... ......

Probably the same one I was talking about (Bal Harbour - right next to the Hilton). Not sure if he's still at that address but if not, it's in the same area. Forgot about the tree until you mentioned it....

HomeBred_Texan
12-16-2005, 05:17 PM
Probably the same one I was talking about (Bal Harbour - right next to the Hilton). Not sure if he's still at that address but if not, it's in the same area. Forgot about the tree until you mentioned it....
He ditched the condo when he left the area. He did look funny for a QB back then, I remember the beer gut as well. Arggg, Kind of looks like the one I have now, ROFL. Also I remember, if you wanted to pick up a fine looking lady back then, Kenny's bar or condo was the place to be. Yes, I had been to his condo also....

And sorry, I forgot to vote again...

YES, by all means, Kenny "the snake" Stabler should be a hall of fame QB hands down...

infantrycak
12-16-2005, 05:18 PM
I don't think it's fair to throw the stats of a QB in the 70's against most of the modern day passers....

Wow, hope all this isn't out of my one somewhat flippant TD/INT comment. I should have been better about saying Stabler was capable of both fantastic pressure under fire and crunch time leadership and at the same time could show staggeringly inconsistant play and some bad decisions handing games away. Have to admit my perception may have been somewhat skewed of the era given at the time the main guy I watched was Staubach--he only had one full season as a starter that he didn't throw more TD's than INT's. He certainly was not scared to throw down field either.

aj.
12-16-2005, 05:27 PM
Have to admit my perception may have been somewhat skewed of the era given at the time the main guy I watched was Staubach--he only had one full season as a starter that he didn't throw more TD's than INT's. He certainly was not scared to throw down field either.

And they always threw to their RBs a ton - even after Drew Pearson arrived on the scene.

infantrycak
12-16-2005, 05:30 PM
And they always threw to their RBs a ton - even after Drew Pearson arrived on the scene.

A little off topic here, but I just saw one of NFL Films' great games replays--the 1992 Cowboys v. Niners NFC Championship game. Even though I watched it at the time, I had forgotten how much they used the RB's in that game. Emmitt had 8 or 9 receptions and Moose 3 I believe. Around here that would be called a conservative O or a QB with no vision I suspect--seems results really do count.

MarleyFan
12-17-2005, 05:51 AM
Yes to Stabler, Plunkett, Flores and Guy!

WaylonJennings67
12-19-2005, 08:31 PM
If it were stats alone Namath would be excluded. Like Joe Willie, Stabler was a winner, a leader, & definitely a legend.

mike moffat
12-23-2005, 02:37 AM
For my two cents, Snake goes into the hof. I am old enough to remember him very well. He was indeed a "character". One of my favorite Stabler stories was from John Madden's first book. John said that Kenny had ice water in his veins. One day, the Raiders were behind late in the game. Less than two minutes to go. Roughly the length of the field in front of them. Stabler calls a time out and walked over to Madden and said, "Boy, the fans are getting their money's worth today." Went back out and drove the length of the field and won the game.
I was living in Sagemont when the Diamond Back was in it's prime. I had some pretty good times in there. I remember the live tree as well.
Who remembers the Penzoil commercial that he did? Basically throwing a quart of oil during a game and the quart spirals right into an open slot in a full case of oil.
The Snake wasn't pretentious at all. What you saw was what you got. I admired him for that. :trophy:

WaylonJennings67
12-26-2005, 08:25 PM
Many forget The Snake's run to put Oakland ahead in the IMMACULATE RECEPTION game......................sincerely can't believe he's not in.

aj.
12-26-2005, 08:50 PM
And fewer probably remember that Stabler didn't enter that game until the 3rd quarter - subbing for then starter Daryle Lamonica. It was Stabler's team after that game.

WaylonJennings67
12-26-2005, 08:58 PM
Good point.