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View Full Version : Assign Blame: Coaching or Personnel?


Tulip
12-13-2005, 06:23 PM
I know we've argued back and forth all season, but I wanted to get an actual NUMERICAL count of where we stand.

I know neither the Capers nor Casserly is 100% to blame, but if you had to choose which was more to blame for the Texans' 2005 failure: coaching or personnel, which would you choose?

Runner
12-13-2005, 06:25 PM
Coaching

YoungTexanFan
12-13-2005, 06:27 PM
Coaching

I would like a combo vote, but as the people listed after the positions, I chose coaching

Corrosion
12-13-2005, 06:52 PM
PBurnt , Babin , B.Joppru ,Tony Hollings , and lets not forget Tony Boselli ....Cut Aaron Glenn , Cut Jamie Sharper .....Need I go on ?

Tulip
12-13-2005, 06:54 PM
I would like a combo vote, but as the people listed after the positions, I chose coaching

But what are the chances that it's a true 50/50 blame scenario?

Gunbuny
12-13-2005, 06:57 PM
PBurnt , Babin , B.Joppru ,Tony Hollings , and lets not forget Tony Boselli ....Cut Aaron Glenn , Cut Jamie Sharper .....Need I go on ?
I have to agree with this statement. The move that screams inept front-office is P-Burnt. How is it that Raidah fans (I know a lot of them) knew he shys away from contact and can't cover but Casserly does not know this?? All he seemrd to care about is if this guy was going to get caught with 10lbs of pot in his car or kick his pregnant girlfriend down the stairs. This is important, but isn't it also important if the guy can play football?

Tulip
12-13-2005, 07:00 PM
I have to agree with this statement. The move that screams inept front-office is P-Burnt. How is it that Raidah fans (I know a lot of them) knew he shys away from contact and can't cover but Casserly does not know this??

I don't think that we should have traded for him (or released Glenn), but the Raiders have long been considered an undisciplined team. Casserly thought that proper coaching would correct Buchanon's defects.

rmartin65
12-13-2005, 07:00 PM
Coaching.

texplayer2
12-13-2005, 07:12 PM
I have to agree with this statement. The move that screams inept front-office is P-Burnt. How is it that Raidah fans (I know a lot of them) knew he shys away from contact and can't cover but Casserly does not know this?? ?

I think that shying away from contact is something most players who have been around awhile do. It's called getting older and wiser in life. Football is a sport for the young, this Casserly knows, and now he knows even better. I bet the experience with Buchanon will make him shy away from such contracts as well. Ask Deion Sanders, David Carr,etc....what happens as time goes on.

Corrosion
12-13-2005, 07:19 PM
Coaching.

:challenge

Its kinda hard to win as a coach when you have no talent at so many positions .... Ill list the holes .... You all tell me what you think .



Center .... zero talent in S.McKinney ... Seems to think He's and the rest of the O-Line are MUCH better than they really are .

Left O-Guard .....Milford Brown ..... maybe a back up somewhere else ... probably not

TE ..... Mark Bruener .... couldnt catch a beach ball

WR ....Corey Bradford .... See Above
WR....Jabar Gaffney ..... Up one minute , Down the next

LOLB ...Jason Babin .... Lost his starter spot to a special teamer (Shantee Orr , who has played pretty well of late)

RLOB ....Antwan Peek .... Im not hearing how he needs more playing time now .... But I dont hear the play by play guy calling his name much either .

FS ....Marcus Coleman ... Lost his job to a rookie second day pick ....Between DUI's and not showing up for team meetings .... nuff said

RCB ....Phillip Buchanon ... Hurt , Benched , cant tackle , cant cover ... Maybe he should try Flag Football ?


If i left anything out ... fill in the blank .

Dont thing Vince Lombardi could make this team a winner with that many holes .:cool:

Khari
12-13-2005, 07:20 PM
we need a "both" pick

Corrosion
12-13-2005, 07:24 PM
By the way .... Im not real big on Capers , although I think he has the right general idea , run the ball well , control the clock , stop the run ... Not pretty to watch but its winning football .

Tulip
12-13-2005, 07:28 PM
we need a "both" pick

Why? Is the breakdown of blame:

50.000000% Coaching

and

50.000000% Personnel

?

I very deliberately left off a "both" option.

Tulip
12-13-2005, 07:31 PM
By the way .... Im not real big on Capers , although I think he has the right general idea , run the ball well , control the clock , stop the run ... Not pretty to watch but its winning football .

It's the "keep it close until the 4th quarter and then find a way to pull off the win" part that makes it impossible. That's playing not to lose, and it's a terrible philosophy. I'd say "just ask Mack Brown", but he won't admit it. He still credits better players with the team's jump from good to great over the past year.

Ibar_Harry
12-13-2005, 07:32 PM
:challenge

Its kinda hard to win as a coach when you have no talent at so many positions .... Ill list the holes .... You all tell me what you think .



Center .... zero talent in S.McKinney ... Seems to think He's and the rest of the O-Line are MUCH better than they really are .

Left O-Guard .....Milford Brown ..... maybe a back up somewhere else ... probably not

TE ..... Mark Bruener .... couldnt catch a beach ball

WR ....Corey Bradford .... See Above
WR....Jabar Gaffney ..... Up one minute , Down the next

LOLB ...Jason Babin .... Lost his starter spot to a special teamer (Shantee Orr , who has played pretty well of late)

RLOB ....Antwan Peek .... Im not hearing how he needs more playing time now .... But I dont hear the play by play guy calling his name much either .

FS ....Marcus Coleman ... Lost his job to a rookie second day pick ....Between DUI's and not showing up for team meetings .... nuff said

RCB ....Phillip Buchanon ... Hurt , Benched , cant tackle , cant cover ... Maybe he should try Flag Football ?


If i left anything out ... fill in the blank .

Dont thing Vince Lombardi could make this team a winner with that many holes .:cool:

I wouldn't disagree except I believe those are the players the coaches wanted except for perhaps Brown. Brown was a special draft situation like Hollings and simply never has panned out. But then again who has on the O-line?

Corrosion
12-13-2005, 07:39 PM
I wouldn't disagree except I believe those are the players the coaches wanted except for perhaps Brown. Brown was a special draft situation like Hollings and simply never has panned out. But then again who has on the O-line?


You may be right on TWO of those players , and they are probably the biggest busts on the team , Babin abd PBurnt ..... but the rest of that mess is Casserly's doing.

keyfro
12-13-2005, 09:39 PM
simply put...you play to WIN the game...(best line ever)...you do NOT play not to lose the game...that's what capers does...and that's why he loses...cause he does not play to the win the freakin game

touttail
12-14-2005, 06:04 AM
I voted coaching, but needed an all the above button!!!!!

Don't think we have exceptional talent, but strongly feel we would be better than 1-12 with a HC that had some cojones and swagger!

Bobby 119C:brickwall

Double Barrel
12-14-2005, 10:57 AM
We were 7-9 last year, with most of the same players. It seems to me that the same team should be better than 1-12, so I voted coaching.

Although players should share some of the blame, too. They play the game.

Vinny
12-14-2005, 11:01 AM
We were 7-9 last year, with most of the same players. It seems to me that the same team should be better than 1-12, so I voted coaching.Overall we are 4 - 21 our last 25 games. The wheels started falling off last year.

I'd say it was both bad coaching and poor talent. I don't think it is just a one sided equation. Great players can overcome some bad coaching by making plays...we don't get many glimpes of dominating play from too many of our players. Just Walker, Dunta, Dom Davis and flashes of AJ.

tulexan
12-14-2005, 11:02 AM
I put the blame on coaching. We have lost too many winnable close games due to poor strategy.

Buffi2
12-14-2005, 11:08 AM
Coaching - but personnel is a very close second.

Not only does Capers not coach to win - but I his demeanor on the field - open mouth, taking notes doesn't instill great excitement and motivation. I think he lost control of this team last year and it has been downhill from there.

Bobo
12-14-2005, 07:02 PM
I know we've argued back and forth all season, but I wanted to get an actual NUMERICAL count of where we stand.

I know neither the Capers nor Casserly is 100% to blame, but if you had to choose which was more to blame for the Texans' 2005 failure: coaching or personnel, which would you choose?

You should have added a third selection: Players. You can't simply say that if you blame the players, you blame Casserly. Heck, the players are basically the same guys who led the team to within a game of a .500 season last year. The players simply have failed to perform to the level they did last year. I can't blame Capers nor Casserly for somebody else's failures.

Tulip
12-14-2005, 07:18 PM
You should have added a third selection: Players. You can't simply say that if you blame the players, you blame Casserly. Heck, the players are basically the same guys who led the team to within a game of a .500 season last year. The players simply have failed to perform to the level they did last year. I can't blame Capers nor Casserly for somebody else's failures.

As I stated in the "what if Reeves said it's not Capers or Casserly" thread, that's a failure in logic. You're right, though - in your scenario, I wouldn't blame Casserly. If the players stop performing to their previous levels, then it is coaching that has failed.

Bobo
12-14-2005, 07:24 PM
As I stated in the "what if Reeves said it's not Capers or Casserly" thread, that's a failure in logic. You're right, though - in your scenario, I wouldn't blame Casserly. If the players stop performing to their previous levels, then it is coaching that has failed.

No, that isn't true. A coach or GM for that matter could do his job perfectly and the team could still fail to perform. I saw the Texans come out fired up for the KC game in the second half even when they were down by 24 points. That to me shows Capers was doing an exceptional job at keeping these guys in the game. Yet, they still underperformed in that second half. No, that is NOT a "failure in logic." In fact, it's common sense. You can do a perfect job in supervising an employee, yet that employee might still fail. If that is the case, you get rid of the employee -- not the supervisor. And that's why Reeves is here -- not to evaluate Casserly or Capers but to discover the true culprits.

Bobo
12-14-2005, 07:27 PM
Coaching - but personnel is a very close second.

Not only does Capers not coach to win - but I his demeanor on the field - open mouth, taking notes doesn't instill great excitement and motivation. I think he lost control of this team last year and it has been downhill from there.

You are watching too much TV. A coach's demeanor on the field is not a proper way to evaluate a guy -- especially when you get just a few seconds of the coach on TV at a time. How a coach appears on the sidelines on TV is completely irrelevant. As far as "losing control" of the team last year, I don't see how coming within one game of a .500 season in just the third year of a team's existence is "losing control." If so, then we need to see more coaches "lose control" of their respective teams.

Tulip
12-14-2005, 07:54 PM
No, that is NOT a "failure in logic." In fact, it's common sense. You can do a perfect job in supervising an employee, yet that employee might still fail.

Then that makes it the GM's fault for drafting/acquiring an unsuitable player.

When it's a system-wide failure, like the Texans are experiencing, which players are you going to blame? This isn't a 12-win team with a weak link at WR or CB or name-your-position. This is a systematically underachieving team. So you must look at the system: who brings the pieces to the table and who move the pieces around.

If the players aren't achieving at their talent level, then they aren't properly schemed, motivated, or trained.

If the players don't have the talent level to achieve in the coach's system, then the GM isn't bringing in the right personnel.

run-david-run
12-14-2005, 07:59 PM
What about a "Playcalling" selection... I think that more then anything is what has killed this season...

I HATE Fangio...

real
12-14-2005, 08:03 PM
I think its casserly mostly...We dont have a lot of talent...there are too many question marks at positions for this to be our first year...we have two fixtures..D-Rob, and AJ

TEXANS84
12-14-2005, 08:29 PM
PBurnt , Babin , B.Joppru ,Tony Hollings , and lets not forget Tony Boselli ....Cut Aaron Glenn , Cut Jamie Sharper .....Need I go on ?
I agree as well. Don't forget Morlon McCree, who is having a standout year for the Panthers as a strong saftey.

Double Barrel
12-14-2005, 08:33 PM
As far as "losing control" of the team last year, I don't see how coming within one game of a .500 season in just the third year of a team's existence is "losing control."

Dude, he "lost control" of this team last year. You keep talking about how we were almost a .500 club last year. But you fail to mention that we were 4-3 going into game 8, and then 3-6 from that point on. Bring that record to this season, and the record is 4-18.

When a HC has to fire his OC just two games into a season, he's lost control.

When a team does not hold a lead at any point of the first 6 games of a season (a record not touched since 1933), he's lost control of the team.

We saw it while it was happening, and many of us called it.

HJam72
12-14-2005, 09:07 PM
Don't forget that after firing the OC, we've seen zero overall improvement in the offense. Yeah sure, no more sacks, but no time for receivers to get open or for the QB to go through reads even if they were. It's a rediculous scheme. So, it wasn't the OC's fault in the first place.

Bobo
12-15-2005, 12:15 AM
Dude, he "lost control" of this team last year. You keep talking about how we were almost a .500 club last year. But you fail to mention that we were 4-3 going into game 8, and then 3-6 from that point on. Bring that record to this season, and the record is 4-18.

When a HC has to fire his OC just two games into a season, he's lost control.

When a team does not hold a lead at any point of the first 6 games of a season (a record not touched since 1933), he's lost control of the team.

We saw it while it was happening, and many of us called it.

If you will remember, going into the final games of the season, the Texans were on an uptick and had just beaten both Jax and Chicago on the road. The team was doing well, especially for a third-year team. Hopes were high going into this season. He certainly didn't "lose control" last year. Secondly, firing a OC doesn't mean a coach has "lost control." It simply means he has lost confidence in the OC. Even this year, I don't see that Capers has "lost control." Even when they were trailing 31-7 at halftime, the team came out revved up for the second half. Anything you claim to have seen was simply a mirage and you didn't call a thing.

Bobo
12-15-2005, 12:22 AM
Then that makes it the GM's fault for drafting/acquiring an unsuitable player.

When it's a system-wide failure, like the Texans are experiencing, which players are you going to blame? This isn't a 12-win team with a weak link at WR or CB or name-your-position. This is a systematically underachieving team. So you must look at the system: who brings the pieces to the table and who move the pieces around.

If the players aren't achieving at their talent level, then they aren't properly schemed, motivated, or trained.

If the players don't have the talent level to achieve in the coach's system, then the GM isn't bringing in the right personnel.

You seem to be trying everything you can to lay blame at either the feet of Casserly or Capers or both. The failure of a player to perform is no one's fault but the player. As far as who to blame, we have talked at length on this board about who is blowing it in the field and who hasn't lived up to expectations. If the guys at the 7-11 aren't doing the Slurpees correctly even after being properly instructed, then you get rid of them and bring in other guys to operate the machine. You don't fire the supervisor who hired them or the coach who trained them because the new guy(s) you hire to replace them won't do any better with the same personnel. It really is that simple.

HJam72
12-15-2005, 02:06 AM
When almost everyone on the team is playing badly, you've got to blame the HC. Dropped passes everywhere, spooked QB, mostly bad line blocking, no pass rush (or almost none), non-existant turnover ratio for the D, horrible O in the red-zone. Every player on this team seems to have regressed except Pitts and DD (OK, there's maybe 1 or 2 others). Even Robinson has regressed a little bit. I think the HC needs to take the majority of the blame here. I mean Casserly has made major blunders, but at least some of these guys have got to be better than what their showing on the field.

Double Barrel
12-15-2005, 09:46 AM
Anything you claim to have seen was simply a mirage and you didn't call a thing.

Yeah, in your mind you're right, Bobo. 1-12 is just a mirage, and Capers should be Coach of the Year for keeping full control of this team. :cool:

You're opinions become more and more irrelevant with each post. :ok:

Vinny
12-15-2005, 10:06 AM
Yeah, in your mind you're right, Bobo. 1-12 is just a mirage, and Capers should be Coach of the Year for keeping full control of this team. :cool:

You're opinions become more and more irrelevant with each post. :ok:This will probably explain most of Bobo's contrary positions.

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/view/mb/profile/titanscentral/Bobo

Texan Asylum
12-15-2005, 10:33 AM
In my humble opinion the fault lies directly at the feet of management. Let me explain my position. Being in management myself I know that you have got to work with all sorts of personalities. Some are go-getters and some need some one-on-one leadership. For the most part, most personalities like to be part of a winning team and to get people to respond to your formula of success you have to get them to see your vision and buy into it. We are talking about professional athletes here and not slushy vendors..not there is anything wrong with them..but these people are used to being part of a successful program utherwise they would'nt be in the NFL for the most part. The failure to get people to buy into your program comes from not having a
solid program to start with or the inablility to articulate your vision into a successful program. Both of which I don't believe Dom is quilty of. What I do
believe is He has surrounded himself with people that don't have the skills they need to get his vision out to the troops and they don't get the basics of the formula He is using. Dom is just too nice a guy to cut bait on the people he thought he had in place to carry out his program, and I believe it'll cost him his job.
A football team is a large group of "A" achievers who need to be led otherwise
they'll all operate in their own interpretation of what the game plan is. There
are to many facets of the team that need to be coached so the HC needs to have himself surrounded with support people who see his vision and can express it to the players. If any of the support cast can't recognize and communicate the vision to the team then they need to be replaced, otherwise
the system as a whole will never work. Doms inability to deal with all the flaws
in the system he as surrounded himself with, I believe, is the real problem with this team.
Sorry about the long post, but its hard to sum it all up in any other way.
Just my opinion.

touttail
12-15-2005, 10:37 AM
OMG!

Bobo exposed as a Tennessee Troll!!!!!!!!!!:tomato:


Bobby 119C:brickwall

johnboy
12-15-2005, 12:03 PM
We were 7-9 last year, with most of the same players. It seems to me that the same team should be better than 1-12, so I voted coaching.

Although players should share some of the blame, too. They play the game.

The Texans were 7-9 when Babin was starting last year. I believe he was second on the team with 4 sacks. Texans are 1-12 this year he has been hurt all of 3 games (and he is a bust). Orr is playing great maybe one of them should be moved.

Texan Asylum
12-15-2005, 05:12 PM
There once was an owner McNair.
His team he did seem to care.
So he rolled up his sleeves
and brought in Dan Reeves
Who's insights he said he would share.

The Cappers and Casserly show.
Seemed to have nowhere else to go.
So upon further review
McNair took his big shoe
And showed Cap and Cass the doo.

The morale of the story should be.
Even if you are an ex-Donkey.
There's a place on our team
For a man that would seem
Bring us closer to NFL glory.

sax_49
12-16-2005, 09:48 AM
:challenge

Its kinda hard to win as a coach when you have no talent at so many positions .... Ill list the holes .... You all tell me what you think .



Center .... zero talent in S.McKinney ... Seems to think He's and the rest of the O-Line are MUCH better than they really are .

Left O-Guard .....Milford Brown ..... maybe a back up somewhere else ... probably not

TE ..... Mark Bruener .... couldnt catch a beach ball

WR ....Corey Bradford .... See Above
WR....Jabar Gaffney ..... Up one minute , Down the next

LOLB ...Jason Babin .... Lost his starter spot to a special teamer (Shantee Orr , who has played pretty well of late)

RLOB ....Antwan Peek .... Im not hearing how he needs more playing time now .... But I dont hear the play by play guy calling his name much either .

FS ....Marcus Coleman ... Lost his job to a rookie second day pick ....Between DUI's and not showing up for team meetings .... nuff said

RCB ....Phillip Buchanon ... Hurt , Benched , cant tackle , cant cover ... Maybe he should try Flag Football ?


If i left anything out ... fill in the blank .

Dont thing Vince Lombardi could make this team a winner with that many holes .:cool:

Vince Lombardi wouldn't have put up with the BS. He would have personally kicked some players rear ends. I think with his own foot, up their keesters. He would have scared them into playing above or at least up to their potential.

V Man
12-16-2005, 09:55 AM
I would like a combo vote, but as the people listed after the positions, I chose coaching


Agreed, wouldn't say it was 50/50, but both are responsible for where the team is now.:brickwall