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infantrycak
07-30-2004, 12:56 PM
Winslow, Poston Reject Contract
By Pat McManamon, Editor
This report filed July 30, 2004


Kellen Winslow and his agents did not accept a contract offer from the Browns that would have paid him the same as Sean Taylor, who was selected one pick in front of Winslow in the draft.

As a result, Winslow will not be present when the Browns open training camp Friday afternoon.

The Browns and Winslow’s agent, Kevin Poston, talked into the evening on Thursday before discussions ended.

On Friday, the Browns released a statement from team president John Collins stating their case.

Collins said the Browns had offered Winslow the same deal that Taylor signed with the Washington Redskins. Taylor was the fifth pick in the draft, Winslow the sixth. Protocol typically calls for Taylor to make more money, but since he signed first the Browns matched his offer.

“Given the close personal and competitive relationship between Kellen and Sean Taylor, as well as their equal talent level on different sides of the football, we did not want to penalize Kellen for being picked one slot below his former teammate,’’ Collins said in the statement. “Faced with the opportunity to get Kellen in camp on time, we made our best offer.’’

That means the Postons did not agree to an offer that would have paid Winslow $13 million in guaranteed money and allowed him to earn $40 million over six years, figures that have been published about Taylor’s deal.

The $40 million is the maximum Taylor can earn – if he reaches his incentives. A league source said those incentives are tied to Pro Bowl appearances, but the Browns’ tied their incentives to Winslow based on catches because Pro Bowl voting can be subjective, a source said.

The team’s release also said that its offer to Winslow would have given him more money than Kansas City tight end Tony Gonzalez. Gonzalez’s deal, signed after a lengthy holdout prior to the 2002 season opener, earns him $22 million over five years, an average of $4.4 million.

Link (http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news...rts/2720.0.html)

JMO, but NFL teams need to work on pushing money down from the top 15 players into the lower draft positions. With Manning getting a $20 mil signing bonus (2nd largest ever), Gallery getting $18.5, we are seeing rookies with lots of "potential" exceed the contracts of proven pro-bowlers and blow up the franchise numbers on their initial contracts. Just don't understand how teams can justify paying a rookie more than what a pro-bowler would get as an UFA.

Blake
07-30-2004, 01:08 PM
I totally agree. But the fact is you are paying for youth. An idea is that you could save your money, drop down into the low 1st or second round, get a good rookie who will play for a fair amount. And use the money you didnt blow on a top 10 player in FA to gain instant power. Not "potential" players. JMHO

Fiddy
07-30-2004, 01:09 PM
JMO, but NFL teams need to work on pushing money down from the top 15 players into the lower draft positions. With Manning getting a $20 mil signing bonus (2nd largest ever), Gallery getting $18.5, we are seeing rookies with lots of "potential" exceed the contracts of proven pro-bowlers and blow up the franchise numbers on their initial contracts. Just don't understand how teams can justify paying a rookie more than what a pro-bowler would get as an UFA.Thats what I said when I heard Manning got 20 million. Thats a bigger signing bonus then what Brett Favre got 4 years ago. IMO, the NFL needs to look into making the rookies signing like the NBA...

Porky
07-30-2004, 01:13 PM
I agree but don't look for that to happen anytime soon. I am very high on Winslow as a player, and even thought about him as a potential Texan, but there were several things tugging at me, chief among those was comments he made, plus the selection of the Postons as his agent. The Postons are notorious for these kind of holdouts. Assuming the Browns are on the up and up here, I wouldn't improve the offer either. Frankly, I would say they are being generous, and Kellen surely isn't making any friends among his potential fan base.

Lucky
07-30-2004, 01:18 PM
...Just don't understand how teams can justify paying a rookie more than what a pro-bowler would get as an UFA.
For one, the draft position indicates the player's value. If there were no college draft and Winslow was on the open market, he'd probably end up with a contract similar to the one he'll eventually sign. There would be enough teams out there that think he's that pro-bowler that he'd get that contact from someone. The college draft isn't necessarily about keeping costs down for rookies, it's about making the talent dispersion fair and equitable. It's about parity.

I'm just so, so glad the Texans didn't end up with Winslow. Casserly just loves him, but I still think he's the most overrated player coming out of this draft.

infantrycak
07-30-2004, 01:48 PM
For one, the draft position indicates the player's value.

Well kind of--it indicates their relative value but not absolute dollar value. Maybe my impression is wrong but it seems that the upper end this year has gone slightly nuts. Carr and Palmer got $10 mil bonuses with secondary bonuses of $4 mil and at least in Carr's case that second bonus was not all new money as it bought down his base salaries in future years. The rule of thumb has been 6-10% increase per year for the same position--Manning is getting 80-100% more over a 1-2 year time period.

If there were no college draft and Winslow was on the open market, he'd probably end up with a contract similar to the one he'll eventually sign. There would be enough teams out there that think he's that pro-bowler that he'd get that contact from someone.

That's what just seems odd to me and I'm not sure it's true. Take any of the star players who have finished their rookie contracts and become UFA's, i.e. really hitting the prime of their career--none has ever gotten a signing bonus as big as Manning and they were available on the open market for all the teams to bid on, but would teams really pick the unknown quantity over the proven star in open bidding. Doesn't seem rational.

Really just commenting that this year seems different. Carr and Palmer are well paid QB's but they weren't pushing the franchise number--Manning, Gallery, Winslow and Taylor are at or above the franchise numbers.

Blake
07-30-2004, 03:32 PM
The only one out of that group I woulnt mind springing for is Gallery.

keyfro
07-30-2004, 04:18 PM
what the nfl (and really every pro sports league in the nation) needs to do is set the salary for rookies by pick...1st overall can only be paid such and such...2nd this much lower and so one from there...til you get to where they are earning rookie min and the signing bonuses change...and this should also be no matter what position as well...that way you don't have some rookie QB thinking he's god's gift to football and deserves more than a LT...what do ya'll think?

texan279
07-30-2004, 04:22 PM
Is is just me or is it crazy to pay a safety and a tight end who have never played in the NFL before that kind of money? And if Winslow turned down the same deal that Sean Taylor got, he's a jack*****. Is he wanting a contract like Manning got? Now that I think about it probably so, wasn't he saying awhile back he should be getting paid #1 pick money?

Fiddy
07-30-2004, 04:47 PM
The Browns are starting to negotiate through the media...

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/7538370

texan279
07-30-2004, 04:52 PM
Thanks for the link Fiddy...can anyone say INSANITY! What is this guys problem?!?!?!? I tell you what, I am calling the Brown's FO right now and tell them I will play as their starting TE for $250,000 a year...

disaacks3
07-30-2004, 05:45 PM
As much as the Browns really need KW, I can't see them backing down on their end. They may tweak the numbers based on how the incentives are reached, etc., but you just can't pay the lower pick more $$$. :crazy:

Blake
07-30-2004, 05:54 PM
There is no way the NFL will set a certain dollar amount based on pick. **** would hit the fan. And the players coming into the league from college would go nuts. They would want the same thing everyone else got before them. Looks like there is no stopping them.

booie4
07-30-2004, 10:26 PM
As much as the Browns really need KW, I can't see them backing down on their end. They may tweak the numbers based on how the incentives are reached, etc., but you just can't pay the lower pick more $$$. :crazy:
Think about it, if the browns offered KW #5 money in the 1st meeting they'll likely offer more in another week considering how much they need him. It might look like he's greedy to the brown fans, but half of them don't like him anyway. Also the dispute might not be on money but on the length of the contract.

texman8
07-30-2004, 11:18 PM
The Browns are a mess with Butch Davis running the show.

JustBonee
07-31-2004, 08:54 AM
They have replaced the Bengals as the laughing stock of Ohio.
Hear that many are predicting the Browns to be the cellar dwellers this season.
And it sure is looking pretty bleak right now.

keyfro
07-31-2004, 11:40 AM
who cares what the college kids these days want in money...if the nfl was smart they would step in set the salary limit so there would be no rookie hold outs...it would also keep a lot of the juniors in college ball til their senior year...knowing they'll get more money next year...the players can complain all they want but this should be a time for what's best for the club and the fans not the players...they're rookies never played a down of nfl ball...when their first contract is up then they can go for the mega bucks like payton and mcnabb

jacquescas
07-31-2004, 11:47 AM
I like how the salary rules work, remember no contracts are gaurunteed, and a decent number of high picks bust so it adds up.

ROC
07-31-2004, 08:06 PM
It's obvious. The man just doesn't want to play for this team. You could tell on draft day by the look on his face.

JustBonee
07-31-2004, 08:57 PM
Winslow "Bang"

rippin' on the Postons ... http://footballguys.com/04bang_negotiation.htm

SlimBooter
07-31-2004, 09:23 PM
Sassy: It's cool that you bring that up. He's a buddy of mine from Yahoo. I posted his newest cartoon "Breaking News" in the non sport forum on this message board. Bang's cartoons get better and better with each one.

JustBonee
07-31-2004, 09:28 PM
.... He's a buddy of mine from Yahoo....
Really? .. They are hilarious! Breaking News.. Ricky.. one of the best ever!

SlimBooter
07-31-2004, 09:32 PM
We usually get a hint of what the next one will be about. He doesn't tell us too much because it would ruin it but he usually gives us an idea of what he's going to do. The one "Vick takes a ****" is my favorite one to date.

JustBonee
08-02-2004, 07:34 PM
http://users.zoominternet.net/~skycam/lonely%20brown.jpg
(that picture reminds me of when I lived there)
the Brownies have all of their other picks signed now, so concentrating on Winslow is all that is left for them to take care of in the next 10 days or so.

gwallaia
08-02-2004, 10:16 PM
Everyone needs to remember, Winslow is more than just a football player .....he's a soldier. :soldier:

JustBonee
08-03-2004, 07:44 AM
Maybe he wants to get on with the Texans.
He's hanging around Houston right now .. working out at Rice. :confused:

TheOgre
08-03-2004, 09:51 AM
John Clayton of ESPN mentioned that there is a possibility that Winslow doesn't have issue with the amount of the contract itself but with the escalator clauses. Perhaps the Browns set the performance levels to active those escalator clauses way too high for Winslow's and the Poston's tastes. This is pure speculation by John Clayton, but if that is the case I can understand it.

Boris
08-03-2004, 09:58 AM
"I don't see no fruit basket!"

TexansCanes
08-07-2004, 04:24 PM
i think the main problem is that his dad is on the negotiations, which i think is a bad idea. his dad thinks that his kid is the best, as most fathers do, and therefore thinks he should be paid like it. is he worth the money, i don't know and niether do you only time will tell, but he has to get on the field first.

the set rookie contracts sounds like a good deal, will never work with the contract rules in place in the nfl. this kids coming in want all the money they can get and i can't blame them because at anytime they can get cut and lose your money.

keyfro
08-07-2004, 07:59 PM
you know i don't care if his dad is sitting in on the negotiations...kellen is a big boy he can make his own decisions and i'm sure just like every other "potential" superstar he thinks he's the best...bottom line he should realize that he's a rook and god's gift to football...take the offer the browns extended to him...it's more than fair...and go be a ball player...and sign some freakin autographs

TexansCanes
08-08-2004, 12:14 PM
if you're telling me that winslow sr. doesn't have an influence on winsolw jr. i don't buy it. you're right he thinks he is the best but what makes it worse is that everyone around him says the same thing and that what makes his head bigger and want more money.

JustBonee
08-08-2004, 01:09 PM
Sr. has said publicly that he wants fair market value for his son. But what is Poston after, other than to break the bank?

Ihategeeks
08-08-2004, 01:21 PM
Sr. has said publicly that he wants fair market value for his son. But what is Poston after, other than to break the bank?
Anticipating that the bank will be much larger very soon, I would try and break it too.

MarleyFan
08-08-2004, 01:47 PM
Charles Woodson and Julian Peterson are also represented by the Poston brothers, and they are also holding out for rediculous cash. Peterson wants Payton Manning money! Since both have the "franchise tag", Peterson might have to play for 8 million this year, and Woodson 6.2 million! Poor guys.

TexansCanes
08-08-2004, 06:07 PM
kind of off topic, but my brother told me that woodson was working out in sugar land to keep in shape, maybe someone else heard about this.

TheOgre
08-09-2004, 09:09 AM
This entire situation makes the Lions look even smarter. They trade down one slot and get Roy Williams, the Brown's 2nd rounder, AND they don't have to deal with this negotiation nightmare.

If I were the Browns I would stick with my offer and let Winslow sit out a year if he didn't want it. The Brown's offer appears to be above what should be expected of the #6 slot.

Fiddy
08-09-2004, 09:56 AM
If I were the Browns I would stick with my offer and let Winslow sit out a year if he didn't want it. The Brown's offer appears to be above what should be expected of the #6 slot.If he sits out the year and the dont sign him before next years draft he will be re-entered back into the draft and then the Brown lost a first and second round pick for nothing. That could, and probably will, cripple the team for a couple years....

texasguy346
08-09-2004, 11:16 AM
Looks like the Browns will cave in, and give Winslow what he wants. On SportsCenter they mentioned that the Browns were willing to budge from their "Best Offer". Not really a surprise, because Browns management has always been suspect.

Fiddy
08-10-2004, 02:06 PM
According to James Brown, Winslow reached an agreement with the Browns. The article doesnt give terms of deal but I bet K2 got what he wanted...

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2654904

texasguy346
08-10-2004, 02:27 PM
Yeah I'm sure he did, but at least with this 1st round pick the Browns will probably get their money's worth.

JustBonee
08-10-2004, 03:03 PM
coming to a football field soon finally...
from local Ohio newspaper

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/football/nfl/cleveland_browns/

:thumbdown ... quote from money grubbing Kevin Poston

"I never asked for No. 1 money,'' Poston insisted Monday. That's all their response. I haven't said anything. I don't negotiate in the media.''

TEXANS84
08-11-2004, 12:45 AM
ESPN.com news services
BEREA, Ohio -- First-round draft choice Kellen Winslow II agreed to terms Tuesday night on a six-year contract with the Cleveland Browns, ending his 12-day holdout, league sources confirmed for ESPN.com.

The contract is worth $29 million and could bring Winslow up to $40 million if he reaches all his incentives. The deal also includes a $16.5 million signing and option bonuses.

Blake
08-11-2004, 10:29 AM
Thank the lord...

SBTexans08
08-11-2004, 10:45 AM
Good for a laugh (http://www.footballguys.com/04bang_negotiation.htm) :hehe:

Blake
08-11-2004, 11:59 AM
Im a Freakin' soldier.

infantrycak
08-13-2004, 07:51 AM
Early reviews on the Kellen Winslow Jr. contract do not favor the Browns' new management team.

Industry sources point to the fact that Winslow, a tight end, will receive approximately twice as much money over the life of the deal than last year's No. 6 pick, defensive tackle Johnathan Sullivan of New Orleans.

Winslow's contract, essentially a maximum of $40 million over six years, includes $16.5 million in guaranteed money. That is comprised of signing bonuses paid in four installments and other roster and option bonuses.

Only No. 1 pick Eli Manning and No. 2 choice Robert Gallery in the 2004 draft received more guaranteed money.

"They got crushed," one NFL team executive said of the Browns.

"Was it a good contract for the Browns? No," said a prominent player agent not involved in the process.

Link (http://www.cleveland.com/sports/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1092389606116090.xml)

Gotta admit--Cleveland sure works hard at being bad.

keyfro
08-13-2004, 10:43 AM
you know what's funny about this whole thing...winslow kept saying he wanted his fair market value...how the hell does he know what his fair market value is...he's a tight end who hasn't played a snap in the nfl...i for one hope he is a huge bust(probably won't be though)

Blake
08-13-2004, 11:05 AM
True, he hasnt played a down in the NFL. But youve seen him at Miami. He takes over games. Is an all arround complete TE. He is worth more than the Ben Watsons, and Ben Troupe's. He will have more yards. Be a better blocker, and take the focus off of other primetime players.

Blake
08-13-2004, 11:40 AM
Well lets see what happens when he has a QB at the helm who doesnt suck.

2002 stats. Where he stomped the competition.

Catches 57
Yards 726
YPC 12.7
TD's 8

Even with Brock at QB he still got 60 catches for 605 yards on the season, and two 100+ yard games against good teams.

Besides, you dont have to have a TD in a game to take it over. 106 yards on 7 receptions isnt a bad way to do it either.

infantrycak
08-13-2004, 11:47 AM
He is worth more than the Ben Watsons, and Ben Troupe's. He will have more yards. Be a better blocker, and take the focus off of other primetime players.

Worth more is one thing--worth anything his mind can dream up is another. His contract averages to $6.6 mil per year. There is not a single Texans player with a cap hit that large this year. He gonna come up with more yards than AJ? The top 5 TE's in the NFL average $2.6 mil--is he gonna be 2.5 times as good as Gonzalez, Heap, or as Shannon Sharpe was.

He is getting twice the money the #6 spot got last year--the Browns were fools. Basically they gave him the money for both a pro-bowl/franchise TE and a pro-bowl/franchise Safety. Great cap management. That is the thing folks forget when they get caught up in the "he is the greatest..." hype. This is MLB where there is an open checkbook. You spend an extra 4 mil on a player that is money that can't be paid on the other 52 roster spots.

TheOgre
08-13-2004, 12:22 PM
I will say that 4th and long catch he had on Miami's last drive against West Virginia was awesome. That helped them avoid what would have been a huge upset.

TexansCanes
08-15-2004, 01:04 AM
i as a winslow fan wanted him to have a solid debut and improve for the games down the road and shut up some of the nay-sayers. but then he goes and throws a punch, which i have yet to see, don't know if anyone else has. he can't do that and has to stop doing junk like that.