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stevo3883
12-07-2005, 04:36 PM
I mean, if you've watched him, did you see a franchise LT that dominates?

I remember watching him against VT and came away very unimpressed. If a college DE can do that, imagine what Freeney will do...

And just remember this, Orlando Pace was #1 overall, and in college, he was an absolute BEAST.I think he finished 5th in heisman voting that year. when i think of franchise LT, Pace in college is what i think of. what am i supposed to think of a guy that doesnt even dominate in college?

Ferguson seems more like a project than a "franchise lt"

MorKnolle
12-07-2005, 04:47 PM
That's been my impression the few games I've seen him. I think he has good mechanics to be a good, pass-blocking LT, but I don't see him every adding much weight, at least not without losing some athleticism, and being a good run blocker, and I don't think he could play any other OL position very well, and I know I want Pitts guarding Carr's blind side for at least a year and not a rookie. I've prefered Winston ever since I saw both of them play in the same day a couple months ago. It's even been said on one of the other threads that a few people ("real" football people within pro/college football, not just message board people) suggest that Ferguson drop weight and become a TE again.

Kaiser Toro
12-07-2005, 04:58 PM
That's been my impression the few games I've seen him. I think he has good mechanics to be a good, pass-blocking LT, but I don't see him every adding much weight, at least not without losing some athleticism, and being a good run blocker, and I don't think he could play any other OL position very well, and I know I want Pitts guarding Carr's blind side for at least a year and not a rookie. I've prefered Winston ever since I saw both of them play in the same day a couple months ago. It's even been said on one of the other threads that a few people ("real" football people within pro/college football, not just message board people) suggest that Ferguson drop weight and become a TE again.

I like Dbrick's value in the 3 to 6 range as I think he is not an impact right out of the box. I do not agree with your assessment about putting on weight and losing his athleticism. I have never seen an athlete lose his footwork, strength and technique by beefing up. Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't footwork, strength and technique the holy trinity of OL's?

tulexan
12-07-2005, 05:04 PM
To be fair to D'Brick Darryl Tapp is a very good DE and has a good chance of being a good NFL player.

MorKnolle
12-07-2005, 05:07 PM
I like Dbrick's value in the 3 to 6 range as I think he is not an impact right out of the box. I do not agree with your assessment about putting on weight and losing his athleticism. I have never seen an athlete lose his footwork, strength and technique by beefing up. Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't footwork, strength and technique the holy trinity of OL's?

He wouldn't lose strength by gaining weight, hopefully he'd get stronger, but putting on 25-30 pounds over one offseason can definitely change your quickness and possibly lead to nagging injuries if your body doesn't adapt well, and he showed last year that he had a problem keeping weight on and not losing it, so that leads me to question his long-term durability as an OL. I realize Tapp is a good DE, but I barely saw that game and the other few games I've seen Ferguson in I have not been very impressed against in his performance against lesser competition. We will have to wait and see how the combine and workouts go though.

infantrycak
12-07-2005, 05:27 PM
I like Dbrick's value in the 3 to 6 range as I think he is not an impact right out of the box. I do not agree with your assessment about putting on weight and losing his athleticism. I have never seen an athlete lose his footwork, strength and technique by beefing up. Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't footwork, strength and technique the holy trinity of OL's?

Completely non-verifiable by us, but something to monitor--there was a guy on 610 am the other day (scout, internet or otherwise I didn't catch) who said D'Brick had been taken to a couple physiologist/trainer types who said he just wasn't going to add much weight above 295 lbs and maintain it. No real explanation why. May or may not matter, but folks who just want to add 30 lbs to him may be unrealistic.

ArlingtonTexan
12-07-2005, 05:35 PM
Completely non-verifiable by us, but something to monitor--there was a guy on 610 am the other day (scout, internet or otherwise I didn't catch) who said D'Brick had been taken to a couple physiologist/trainer types who said he just wasn't going to add much weight above 295 lbs and maintain it. No real explanation why. May or may not matter, but folks who just want to add 30 lbs to him may be unrealistic.

Highly possible, I have heard that he was in the 260-265 range coming out of high school...i will check will rivals in a few minutes.

Youngstown Colt
12-07-2005, 05:38 PM
When I see him, I don't see the dominance I saw with players like Gallery, Bosseli, and Ogden in college. This guy often has good games where he doesn't let up sacks. But I remember seeing Gallery simply manhandle great college DEs while at Iowa. He made OSU's Will Smith look like a freshman instead of the All American DE he really was.

Ferguson, IMO, isn't a franchise LT.

ArlingtonTexan
12-07-2005, 05:44 PM
Checked and on the UVA site he is still listed at 265. While they probably neve updated his actual weight, if anything, he would have been smaller coming out of high school.

That said, his game is all about exceptional foot quickness and unusually long arms that get on the defenser quickly. Since he would be facing the lighter speed rusher for the most part, weight is probably less an issue than if were a drive blocking type.

edo783
12-07-2005, 05:57 PM
Checked and on the UVA site he is still listed at 265. While they probably neve updated his actual weight, if anything, he would have been smaller coming out of high school.

That said, his game is all about exceptional foot quickness and unusually long arms that get on the defenser quickly. Since he would be facing the lighter speed rusher for the most part, weight is probably less an issue than if were a drive blocking type.

Which may be why he is concidered a better pass blocker than a run blocker, just doesn't have the lead in the butt to move folks around. The issue will be, will that transfere to the NFL.

beerlover
12-07-2005, 06:18 PM
IDEALLY you'd like to draft a player like D'Brick and develop him before throwing him to the wolves, we do have Pitts playing well so there might be some wiggle room to not so much add bulk as to strengthen and prepare him for the riggors of a NFL OT. I do believe he has tremendous upside potential, his base and reach if refined are the stuff that a franchise tackle can be built from its just that right now he needs a TE or LG to team up to seal off the edge.

That being said clearly this is not our best option in these dark days of year 4 but merely a option if the Texans trade down for more picks and D'Brickashaw slips for those very concerns.

God of Wine
12-07-2005, 06:48 PM
Completely non-verifiable by us, but something to monitor--there was a guy on 610 am the other day (scout, internet or otherwise I didn't catch) who said D'Brick had been taken to a couple physiologist/trainer types who said he just wasn't going to add much weight above 295 lbs and maintain it. No real explanation why. May or may not matter, but folks who just want to add 30 lbs to him may be unrealistic.


From what I heard Lance Zeirlien say Ferguson has trouble keeping on his weight and is not as good as Gallery.

I don't want to draft him just because we "need" OL help. We need to draft BPA.

dc_txtech
12-07-2005, 09:03 PM
I dont necesarily think D'brick is our man but from what I heard on ESPN that teams might be moving to smaller tackles with better footwork to stop the Dwight Freenys of the league. Im not sure thats just what I heard.

MorKnolle
12-07-2005, 11:32 PM
Checked and on the UVA site he is still listed at 265. While they probably neve updated his actual weight, if anything, he would have been smaller coming out of high school.

That said, his game is all about exceptional foot quickness and unusually long arms that get on the defenser quickly. Since he would be facing the lighter speed rusher for the most part, weight is probably less an issue than if were a drive blocking type.

Ferguson had played primarily TE in high school and had put weight on but has had trouble keeping it on and I think dropped all the way to 265 or so at the end of last season. Foot quickness and long arms don't matter if you only weigh 265, that is about the average TE weight in the NFL, definitely not what you want as a LT. People like Freeney will still be much quicker and weigh more than him. A DE or whoever else is rushing the passer will have significant speed going when he initially runs into the OL, and an OL cannot expect to win that battle if they don't weigh at least 30-40 pounds more than the pass rusher, much less if they are the same weight.

I dont necesarily think D'brick is our man but from what I heard on ESPN that teams might be moving to smaller tackles with better footwork to stop the Dwight Freenys of the league. Im not sure thats just what I heard.

Freeney has a pretty good bull rush too, as all good NFL DE will, so we can't go to ultra light LT. If Ferguson is indeed only 265 there is no way he can play LT in the NFL at that weight, he would be smaller than our TEs. OL have to outweigh DE by at very minimum 20 pounds to absorb and stop their momentum when they run into them.

Johnny Utah
12-08-2005, 10:02 AM
I think Joe Thomas is going to overtake D'Brick as the top LT taken. D'Brick just hasn't been dominate enough.

MorKnolle
12-08-2005, 10:17 AM
I haven't seen Joe Thomas play enough to know, but Winston in my opinion has looked better than Ferguson and won the best OLineman of the year award from what I heard.

PapaL
12-08-2005, 10:44 AM
With all due respect, Tapp is a finalist for the Hendricks (DE Award) and the Lott (Defensive player of year) Awards. Not exactly a scrub DE. Reminds some of Juluis Peppers (quoted byNFLDraftblitz (http://www.nfldraftblitz.com/Profiles/daryltappprofile.htm)).

D'Brick will be a top 10. #1 overall - not to sure about that. Especially when you consider who else is elgible for the draft this year.

Texas_Thrill
12-08-2005, 11:07 AM
Top 10 pick is fine but when you draft a LT #1 you don't want to have any doubts that he is worthy of that pick. I believe the last bust of a TOP flight T was Tony Mandrich so having a bust at LT seems to be a lot less likely. You pretty much seem to be able to tell if they can do it or if they have been dominate in college to a level above and beyond....like your Pace, Odgen, Gallery.

Ferguson is turning into our situation last year with Barron. If he really is 265 then he'll drop way down unless some coach is absolutely convinced he can keep weight on this kid which appears fairly difficult.

I want to draft a #1 overall pick at this point who leaves me w/o a doubt. Right now until we CHANGE management I'm not sure what to feel.

nunusguy
12-08-2005, 11:36 AM
"If a team took him just because they say look, we really like this player, we like Eric Winston, we want him on our line, but we already have a real good left tackle, well, Eric Winston could play guard. He could easily be a guard. He's got the body type to be in there and take on those blocky guys who play inside on the regular-down defense, anchor the power rushers," Groh said.
"Obviously, D'Brickashaw is not going to be a guard, he's not going to be a center," Groh said. "If teams make any tradeoff in their tackles, if they have to do so, the left tackle with a right-handed quarterback, in order to get the type of pass-protection ability, they're willing to give up a little bit of the root-'em-out skill, OK, but then that means your right tackle has got to be a pretty good root-'em-out guy.
http://www.augustafreepress.com/stories/storyReader$38308
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I dunno....here's some interesting and insightful observations by an asst. coach with the Jets who admits to thinking this guy is an outstanding
pass blocker, but that's it. Unlike say Winston, not really suited to play any
other OL position. So versatility is definitely not a strong point.

JDizzle
12-08-2005, 12:12 PM
A DE or whoever else is rushing the passer will have significant speed going when he initially runs into the OL, and an OL cannot expect to win that battle if they don't weigh at least 30-40 pounds more than the pass rusher, much less if they are the same weight.

That, simply, is not true. Out-weighing someone does not mean you're stronger or quicker.

I don't understand the obsession with scale weight. Ferguson's listed @ 295 in every media publication I've read and if you've seen him, he isn't FAT. Take away Orlando Pace's GUT and I'd be willing to bet he weighs the same - if not less - at 6'7" than Ferguson does at 6'5". Perhaps his genetics keep him from packing on fat? Who knows, who cares? Can he BLOCK?

TheOgre
12-08-2005, 12:16 PM
I dunno....here's some interesting and insightful observations by an asst. coach with the Jets who admits to thinking this guy is an outstanding
pass blocker, but that's it. Unlike say Winston, not really suited to play any
other OL position. So versatility is definitely not a strong point.

His skills are specifically geared to pass-blocking. I wouldn't want him anywhere instead of LT. Why would you move a talented player from the most important position on the line? Versatility is a bonus, but I think in the case of your starting LT, it is practically irrelevant.

PapaL
12-08-2005, 12:42 PM
His skills are specifically geared to pass-blocking. I wouldn't want him anywhere instead of LT. Why would you move a talented player from the most important position on the line? Versatility is a bonus, but I think in the case of your starting LT, it is practically irrelevant.

Exactly. Would you want you LT with quick feet and agility playing G or C? The man can obviously block. If he couldnt handle a bull rush, dont you think every team that he has played would have put their biggest strongest guy over him and try to bull rush him? Dont let his weight fool anyone. You complain about fat slow linemen, not trim fast one with no history of getting bullied off the line.

edo783
12-08-2005, 12:44 PM
The intersting thing is that Pitts is a pretty fair run and pass blocker. With a real good pass blocker on the backside and a run/pass blocker on the frontside....well, that sounds pretty good to me. Now, would I spend a 1st on DBrick...nope, but a 3-5 yes. If we pick up a couple of other picks in the process GREAT. By the way, I doubt we pick #1 as we will likely win 1-2 games going out and that will put us in the 2-7 range. Might have to wind up "Settling" for Winston as someone else may pick DBrick.

nunusguy
12-08-2005, 01:09 PM
His skills are specifically geared to pass-blocking. I wouldn't want him anywhere instead of LT. Why would you move a talented player from the most important position on the line? Versatility is a bonus, but I think in the case of your starting LT, it is practically irrelevant.
I agree, you would not want to expend a top 5 pick or even top 10 for any OL but a LT. But as good as Ferguson is supposed to be, look at the last 2 LT draftees now in the pros - Gallery and Jordan. Both are playing RT because they have yet to develope sufficiently to win the LT spot. In the meantime they are productive at another position in the OL. And even if you're playing LT, all of the Dlineman you faced won't be smallish, speed rushers. You've still got to be able to run block, and many DEs are really big, not to mention the larger, stunting DTs.

BigBull17
12-08-2005, 01:47 PM
The intersting thing is that Pitts is a pretty fair run and pass blocker. With a real good pass blocker on the backside and a run/pass blocker on the frontside....well, that sounds pretty good to me. Now, would I spend a 1st on DBrick...nope, but a 3-5 yes. If we pick up a couple of other picks in the process GREAT. By the way, I doubt we pick #1 as we will likely win 1-2 games going out and that will put us in the 2-7 range. Might have to wind up "Settling" for Winston as someone else may pick DBrick.
We wont win 2 games. Arizona will air it out on us and San Fran is pretty stout at home and the Oilers destroyed us. Watch we win one game, the Jags

MorKnolle
12-08-2005, 04:44 PM
That, simply, is not true. Out-weighing someone does not mean you're stronger or quicker.

I don't understand the obsession with scale weight. Ferguson's listed @ 295 in every media publication I've read and if you've seen him, he isn't FAT. Take away Orlando Pace's GUT and I'd be willing to bet he weighs the same - if not less - at 6'7" than Ferguson does at 6'5". Perhaps his genetics keep him from packing on fat? Who knows, who cares? Can he BLOCK?

Outweighing someone does not make you quicker but it can make you stronger, either way an OL has to have some mass on him. If two guys that are battling with each other can each bench press and squat the same amount of weight but one weighs 325 pounds while the other weighs 255 pounds, the 325 pounder will win 9/10 times. If an OL and a DE weigh the same amount and the OL is backing up slightly to block while the DE is coming crashing into him, they are both going to be pushed backwards together towards the QB, that's the way physics works. If an OL is quick and has good footwork and everything and will stay in front of guys pretty well he will be a pretty good pass blocker, but he will still get pushed backwards into the QB more if he weighs 295 as opposed to weighing 315. Ferguson is also predominantly a good pass blocker and is not a top notch run blocker, and you need to do both well, especially to be picked in the top 5.

MorKnolle
12-09-2005, 10:53 AM
For what it's worth Ferguson did not make ESPN.com's All-America team.

clandestin
12-09-2005, 06:42 PM
I think the d'brickashaw critics are severely underestimating NFL strength and nutrition programs. Yes it would be ideal if brick was at the ideal playing weight now, but consider his size. To a normal sized person 20 pounds sounds like a whole lot of weight, but to a guy who is nearly 300 it's really not a big deal.

Brick's most commonly reported weight is 295, let's say we want him playing at 315. To Brick all he needs to do is put on 7% of his body weight to get there.

That is comparable to a person of average weight (180) putting on about 12 pounds. And I don't know about you all, but I think I got about half way there just by eating two helpings of Turkey Dinner on Thanksgiving.

infantrycak
12-09-2005, 06:55 PM
I think the d'brickashaw critics are severely underestimating NFL strength and nutrition programs. Yes it would be ideal if brick was at the ideal playing weight now, but consider his size. To a normal sized person 20 pounds sounds like a whole lot of weight, but to a guy who is nearly 300 it's really not a big deal.

Brick's most commonly reported weight is 295, let's say we want him playing at 315. To Brick all he needs to do is put on 7% of his body weight to get there.

That sounds good, but there are reports that D'Brick has has struggled to maintain 295 and has gone to more than one Dr./physiologist who have told him that is basically the max for him. Those reports may be BS, but it isn't just as simple as strapping two bricks in the butt of his uniform.

Big B Texan Fan
12-09-2005, 07:04 PM
I think the d'brickashaw critics are severely underestimating NFL strength and nutrition programs. Yes it would be ideal if brick was at the ideal playing weight now, but consider his size. To a normal sized person 20 pounds sounds like a whole lot of weight, but to a guy who is nearly 300 it's really not a big deal.

Brick's most commonly reported weight is 295, let's say we want him playing at 315. To Brick all he needs to do is put on 7% of his body weight to get there.

That is comparable to a person of average weight (180) putting on about 12 pounds. And I don't know about you all, but I think I got about half way there just by eating two helpings of Turkey Dinner on Thanksgiving.
He could certainly put on the weight no problem if he has the body that will allow it. The pro scouts will do some digging on the family tree to if the genes are there. If so then he'll be a top 10 pick. If not then he'll be a late 1st rounder who gets a shot 2 RT and then will probably move to Guard if RT/LT doesn't work out. Remember, every year @ the combine someone's stock usually plumetts. He'll get told by his agent to not work work but he does get weighed regardless. If that happens and his weight is in the 275-280 range then you'll see mocks with him going late in the first.

tulexan
12-09-2005, 07:07 PM
You don't have to have big bohemeth linemen. There are a lot of teams that are having a lot of success with smaller yet athletic linemen.

YoungTexanFan
12-09-2005, 07:12 PM
He could certainly put on the weight no problem if he has the body that will allow it. The pro scouts will do some digging on the family tree to if the genes are there. If so then he'll be a top 10 pick. If not then he'll be a late 1st rounder who gets a shot 2 RT and then will probably move to Guard if RT/LT doesn't work out. Remember, every year @ the combine someone's stock usually plumetts. He'll get told by his agent to not work work but he does get weighed regardless. If that happens and his weight is in the 275-280 range then you'll see mocks with him going late in the first.

he wont slip past the middle of the first, regardless of his weight. Talent is talent, and he has it. Scouts know his abilities and will take the chance on a franchise LT.

Big B Texan Fan
12-09-2005, 07:15 PM
You don't have to have big bohemeth linemen. There are a lot of teams that are having a lot of success with smaller yet athletic linemen.
Agreed, but it seems as though teams have a 300 lb. pre-requisite when it comes to their bookends.
We don't need anymore projects @ this point. We need solid guys who can play the position with grown adults. The Big East hardly offers up the stiff competition needed when grading out guys that are not proto-typical in size and stature. And I don't remember the Hokies lighting it up against the Canes in their match-up earlier this season. You tell me if D'Brick had a good game. I do remember Marcus on his butt most of the game though.

tulexan
12-09-2005, 07:20 PM
First. D'Brick plays for Virginia. Marcus Vick plays for Virginia Tech. Second, Virginia plays in the ACC, not the Big East.

Big B Texan Fan
12-09-2005, 07:21 PM
he wont slip past the middle of the first, regardless of his weight. Talent is talent, and he has it. Scouts know his abilities and will take the chance on a franchise LT.
Agreed but if he cannot get any bigger as well as we all know how the college coaches and game programs inflate the #'s, Then he may want to work on his catching or tackling.

Pleeeeeease don't get me wrong, I like the kid and hope he works out. The whole catching and tackling bit was meant to be funny. But at the same time he does have the downside potential the be the next Eric Couch of linemen.

Big B Texan Fan
12-09-2005, 07:23 PM
First. D'Brick plays for Virginia. Marcus Vick plays for Virginia Tech. Second, Virginia plays in the ACC, not the Big East.
My bad, I could of sworn he played with the hokies.but thats even worse.

Coach C.
12-09-2005, 07:27 PM
anyway I am one of those people that believe talent is talent. Brick's talent will keep him in the first round and likely a top 10 pick if Arizona can't land a top QB. The kid is a talented pass blocker, but struggles with bull rushes and on run defense. Think of him like a Denver undersized guard. He can move and pull and likely wall off his opponent, but in times where strength is needed over finesse he will be sorely outmatched. McNeil and Winston will overtake him on some teams draft boards. Eventhough McNeil cannot play LT in the pros.

DRAMA
12-09-2005, 11:41 PM
Brick is probably the best OL in this draft...probably. It's deep with good talent but is not front loaded with WEAPONS.

Make no mistake - there is no Pace, Ogden, or even Bryant McKinnie in this draft. I remember people talking about BryMcK and how he had not allowed a sack in like two years. Now, I would've taken a chance on that guy...

I know there are Bush haters but Gore lost the elect....

wait a sec...

I know there are Bush haters, I know he's 'only done it against college players', I know he's 'too small' as some say (But then oddly say that a NFL weight program WOULD put weight on Brick when he gets drafted...hmm) but he IS a weapon.

I wouldn't mind trading down a few spots if we can rake someone over the coals, but otherwise, there are no linemen even being compared to Chad Clifton whereas Bush is at the very least being compared to Sayers and Faulk. I know - I know he's only done it at college.

I just don't think you can use that #1,2,3 whatever on an LT if you're NOT sure that he's a STUD - SUPERSTAR lineman. Otherwise, trade down and take Max, Winston, Hawk, Marcedes, etc...

DRAMA
12-09-2005, 11:41 PM
Vinny...whaddya hear about Marcedes? Any idea where you think he might go?