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View Full Version : Did the Texans really beat the Ravens?


ATX
12-06-2005, 01:06 AM
I heard this on the radio, so I don't want to take credit for noticing this, but The Refs missed a big call at the end of the game. I wish I would have taped the game so I could go back and watch the last pass to Clayton, maybe someone can watch it again and let me know. According to the NFL rule book, If an offensive player commits a foul when tied or trailing, then 10 seconds automatically come off the clock. There was a block in the back by the Ravens before Clayton ran out of bounds. Would Clayton possibly have been tackled in bounds if that penalty wasn't commited? The 10 seconds never came off the clock like the rulebook says. The Ravens kicked the field goal with 10 seconds left, but if the rule had been enforced, there would have been 0 seconds left, giving the Texans the win.

From the NFL Rulebook
2. A team cannot buy an excess time out for a penalty. However, a fourth time out is allowed without penalty for an injured player, who must be removed immediately. A fifth time out or more is allowed for an injury and a five-yard penalty is assessed if the clock was running. Additionally, if the clock was running and the score is tied or the team in possession is losing, the ball cannot be put in play for at least 10 seconds on the fourth or more time out. The half or game can end while those 10 seconds are run off on the clock.
http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/timingfinal

and also....

Game Stats
Baltimore Ravens at 01:04
1-10-BAL13 (1:04) K.Boller pass incomplete to D.Mason.
2-10-BAL13 (:59) K.Boller pass to J.Lewis to BLT 20 for 7 yards (D.Polk).
3-3-BAL20 (:50) K.Boller pass to T.Heap to BLT 44 for 24 yards (M.Greenwood).
1-10-BAL44 (:50) K.Boller spiked the ball to stop the clock.
2-10-BAL44 (:33) K.Boller pass to M.Clayton to HST 45 for 11 yards (M.Greenwood).
1-10-HOU45 (:33) K.Boller spiked the ball to stop the clock.
2-10-HOU45 (:20) (Shotgun) K.Boller pass to M.Clayton to HST 10 for 35 yards (D.Robinson).
PENALTY on BLT-D.Mason, Illegal Block Above the Waist, 10 yards, enforced at HST 10.
1-10-HOU20 (:10) M.Stover 38 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-M.Katula, Holder-D.Zastudil.
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20051204_HOU@BAL


Just thought this was interesting as I or Capers never realized it....but we still deserved to lose this, not making any excuses.

Texans_Chick
12-06-2005, 01:12 AM
They talked about it some on 610's Capers show.

My radio started crackling at that point in the program because I went into a parking garage but I think Capers talked to the ref about it and the ref said that for that particular type of infraction, the 10 second rule dint apply.

So Capers was aware of the rule but the ref said no dice.

Runner
12-06-2005, 06:59 AM
I don't know - maybe because the ball carrier went out of bounds? That doesn't make sense though, because the sort of foul that happened could prevent a tackler from keeping a runner in bounds. Interesting.

rittenhouserobz
12-06-2005, 07:14 AM
From the rule book it sounds like the ref made a mistake. If I were Baltimore I would complain to the league. They may have just lost a very high draft pick. :)

PapaL
12-06-2005, 07:53 AM
The runner was right on the sideline. The only way our guy could have kept him inbounds was 1.) Not get blocked in the back 2.) Completed a suplex off the top rope. The runner was already stepping out when our guy got near him, if memory serves me right that is.....

Runner
12-06-2005, 09:16 AM
The runner was right on the sideline. The only way our guy could have kept him inbounds was 1.) Not get blocked in the back 2.) Completed a suplex of the top rope. The runner was already stepping out when our guy got near him, if memory serves me right that is.....

Right - it wouldn't have made a difference for specific our play, but the rule is in the book for all plays. Say if the runner was 15 yards from the sideline and everything else was the same, it would have affected the outcome. I just wonder what the real exception was to the rule to make it "not count".

metalmike
12-06-2005, 12:36 PM
Who cares?

Do we really want to win, and pass up on the #1 pick?

Go Texans, get that #1 draft pick!!!!

Man, when they start winning we will all look back at this year and laugh!

Hardcore Texan
12-06-2005, 02:03 PM
I wouldn't count on some crazy rule to get me the W, but I sure as hell would be pissed if we did the same thing and we weren't allowed to get away with it and lost the game similarly because of it.

A rule is a rule, and if it's in the damned book, it should be called. I am tired of being called for defensive holdings on fumble recoveries when we are the only damned team in the league to get that call at any point in the game. I know refereeing isn't easy, but the bottom line is we have taken some extremely questionable calls this year that have shaped the outcome of games.

I couldn't agree more. We have got shafted all year on calls. Don't forget Antwan Peek's penalty of roughing the passer, which was very ticky tack. And Carr was shoved out of bounds later in the game and no call. IF YOU CALL ONE OF THEM, YOU HAVE TO CALL THEM BOTH! OR NEITHER. But please, how about some consistency.

But crappy teams never get the breaks, we should be able to overcome and win. It still stings though, the refs should be doing a better job, and it shouldn't be possibly costing us the games.

We will compete with the 49ERS for what I have dubbed THE BUSH BOWL on Jan. 1st. The winner (loser) will most likely get the #1 pick

El Tejano
12-06-2005, 03:32 PM
Did noone else notice the bicep to the head of Carr on I believe his last sack of the game? I thought you couldn't touch the QBs head.

I also thought it was pretty crazy how when J Lewis fumbled early in the 1st half and we recovered, a flag was immediately thrown and a call was made right away without any discussion from the other refs. This game had a very funny feeling to it ref wise.

Kaiser Toro
12-06-2005, 03:42 PM
Now I am truly conflicted. I want to win every game, but yes I will take the L as it stands and move on to a hopeful victory next week. Jaaaannnnneeee! Get me off this crazy thing!

El Tejano
12-06-2005, 03:45 PM
When we lose, just look at the bright side of our draft pick. If we win just say hey, we must not be that bad and we just need to get our lines better.

Double Barrel
12-06-2005, 03:59 PM
Man, when they start winning we will all look back at this year and laugh!

I don't know if I'll ever look back at this season and laugh. Laughing requires humor, and honestly, this season just plain sucks. I don't see a lot of comic relief.

It'll be more like a look back, shake your head, and scratch your goatee kinda' thing. :hmmm:

Interesting thread, though...and, uhhh...Go Texans. :texflag:

1-3
12-06-2005, 04:43 PM
I think someone needs to pull up the exact rule. I'm 99% sure don't get a 10 second run off for holding or blocking in the back. You get it for false starts or illegal procedures because in these regards you are "buying a timeout" to use the above verbage. Having the QB run up to the line and snap the ball without the line being set would save you valuable seconds You gain no time advantage by blocking someone in the back, so the referees were correct. How Dom couldn't explain the situation is another problem all together.

Shaunny66
12-06-2005, 06:22 PM
:texflag: Unless your retarded. I think the Ravens beat Houston with a field goal.:homer:

PapaL
12-06-2005, 10:31 PM
I don't know if I'll ever look back at this season and laugh. Laughing requires humor, and honestly, this season just plain sucks. I don't see a lot of comic relief.

It'll be more like a look back, shake your head, and scratch your goatee kinda' thing. :hmmm:

Interesting thread, though...and, uhhh...Go Texans. :texflag:

This is the type of season full of comedic follies that "NFL Presents" aires 15 years later. You've seen The Bungels, Aints, and Sucs videos. We're a part of that now.

Texans_Chick
12-06-2005, 11:08 PM
McKinney was talking about this on the morning 610 show, but I missed it again because someone called me on my cell phone.

Is the reason why the 10 second rule did not apply is because the player went out of bounds. The play clock did not stop because of the penalty but rather the player going out of bounds. Therefore, the rule cited at the beginning of this thread doesn't apply because it only applies to situations where a penalty helps the offense by stopping the clock and creating another timeout. Is that right?

tsip
12-06-2005, 11:55 PM
McKinney was talking about this on the morning 610 show, but I missed it again because someone called me on my cell phone.

Is the reason why the 10 second rule did not apply is because the player went out of bounds. The play clock did not stop because of the penalty but rather the player going out of bounds. Therefore, the rule cited at the beginning of this thread doesn't apply because it only applies to situations where a penalty helps the offense by stopping the clock and creating another timeout. Is that right?

I believe you are correct, as this 10 seconds off the clock is punishment for what could be an intentional penalty to stop the clock by a team that is out of time outs. Certainly, running out of bounds would still be allowed because that is not a penalty.

ATX
12-07-2005, 12:09 AM
Wouldn't you agree that blocking someone in the back so the tackler can't tackle him in bounds is time gained. 2 Scenarios here:

1.) 20 seconds left you're down by 2, say you're at your own 5 yard line, no timeouts left. First play you throw across the middle for some odd reason, you receiver catches it and breaks free and has one man left to beat, you also have one of your guys right behind that defender. your guy trailing the defender looks up at the clock and sees it ticking down 13-12-11-10 and thinks 1. no way is the receiver going to run it all the way, and 2. no way can the team make it down field to spike the ball. So he gives an illegal block in the back in order to stop the clock, so the field goal team can come on and kick it. Would the clock stop for the team or would they be assessed a penalty for trying to stop the clock?

2.) 8 seconds left, you're down by 4, you're at their 20, no timeouts, your QB throws it for about 10-15 yards, you make it out of bounds with 2 seconds left, but you would have been tackled in bounds with 3 seconds left if one of your teammates didn't block the defender in the back. Your team wouldn't have enough time to run up to the line and spike the ball with 2-3 seconds left. So should that team get a free timeout and and only be penalized 10 yards for that or should 10 seconds come off the clock for committing a foul in order to stop the clock?

outofhnd
12-07-2005, 01:07 AM
The types of penalties that take time off the clocks are false start penalties in the closing seconds.

Delay of game penalties tryin to avoid the timeout..

I think all others are not 10 seconds off

Texans_Chick
12-07-2005, 09:26 AM
The types of penalties that take time off the clocks are false start penalties in the closing seconds.

Delay of game penalties tryin to avoid the timeout..

I think all others are not 10 seconds off


That is not what the rule says. Is there some other rule I am not aware of?

If there were an offensive penalty such as an illegal block in the back, and the player stayed in bounds, would 10 seconds have run off the clock under the rule?

Texans_Chick
12-07-2005, 09:32 AM
Wouldn't you agree that blocking someone in the back so the tackler can't tackle him in bounds is time gained. 2 Scenarios here:

1.) 20 seconds left you're down by 2, say you're at your own 5 yard line, no timeouts left. First play you throw across the middle for some odd reason, you receiver catches it and breaks free and has one man left to beat, you also have one of your guys right behind that defender. your guy trailing the defender looks up at the clock and sees it ticking down 13-12-11-10 and thinks 1. no way is the receiver going to run it all the way, and 2. no way can the team make it down field to spike the ball. So he gives an illegal block in the back in order to stop the clock, so the field goal team can come on and kick it. Would the clock stop for the team or would they be assessed a penalty for trying to stop the clock?

2.) 8 seconds left, you're down by 4, you're at their 20, no timeouts, your QB throws it for about 10-15 yards, you make it out of bounds with 2 seconds left, but you would have been tackled in bounds with 3 seconds left if one of your teammates didn't block the defender in the back. Your team wouldn't have enough time to run up to the line and spike the ball with 2-3 seconds left. So should that team get a free timeout and and only be penalized 10 yards for that or should 10 seconds come off the clock for committing a foul in order to stop the clock?


I think the difficulty with these scenarios as you put it is that the refs have no idea about whether someone intends to stop the clock with a penalty or if they just made penalty without intending to. They can't see in people's heads but rather can just look at the action on the field.

So, I am guessing that under scenario 1, 10 seconds would run off the clock because the person did not go out of bounds to stop the clock. And under scenario 2, 10 seconds would NOT run off the clock because the person did get out of bounds, even though they wouldn't have but for the infraction. This might not be fair, but as I read that particular rule, it wouldn't be prohibited.

Or I could be completely out to lunch with this stuff.

BigBull17
12-07-2005, 11:38 AM
Did noone else notice the bicep to the head of Carr on I believe his last sack of the game? I thought you couldn't touch the QBs head.

I also thought it was pretty crazy how when J Lewis fumbled early in the 1st half and we recovered, a flag was immediately thrown and a call was made right away without any discussion from the other refs. This game had a very funny feeling to it ref wise.
On one sack he was pulled down by his face mask and no hanky. If i can see it with my uneducated eyes at normal speed there is no excuse for an official(sp?) not to see it. And There may had been a chance to tackle Clayton inbounds but the block in the back pushed him out.

metalmike
12-07-2005, 07:49 PM
I don't know if I'll ever look back at this season and laugh. Laughing requires humor, and honestly, this season just plain sucks. I don't see a lot of comic relief.

It'll be more like a look back, shake your head, and scratch your goatee kinda' thing. :hmmm:

Interesting thread, though...and, uhhh...Go Texans. :texflag:
that's more what i was thinking of. people might look at some of my posts and think i am some knid of bandwagon pissant fan. that is so far from the truth, i would love to see Carr and company win.

metalmike
12-07-2005, 07:50 PM
hey quit bitching about calls


we simply suck this year

thay are helping us get the #1 draft pick