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View Full Version : Leinart Or Bush...?Who's more valuable???


COOL V
12-06-2005, 12:41 AM
Should we take Leinart to deal him away for an entire Offensive Line Or Bush For the Rebuilding of a franchise??? Leinart would be more valuable to a team, but Bush could be a Gamebreaker. I say trade DD or limit his role once Bush catches on. It seemed to be working in Kansas City, at least before Priest Holmes got injured. Carr may need competition to be breathing down his neck. He's a competitor, but does he have what it really takes to get us to the Big One??? I guess we'll need a decent line before we can really make an honest judgement.

royce1054
12-06-2005, 06:30 AM
neither i think we are making a huge mistake if we dont draft an OL or trade down and take OL and maybe a S or a TE or something or even 2 first round OL. Imagine the how good Carr and DD will be with a good OL. I understand they are rookies and some rookies never prosper but hey with this O-line we arent going anywhere. Thats why i cant understand why people are talking about drafting Bush.

Scooter
12-06-2005, 08:51 AM
if he is the next coming of barry sanders, wouldnt teams be MORE inclined to stick 8 men in the box? as of right now teams know that sending their entire defense on a blitz is the best defense against the texans' pathetic line ... the only change i see that is a scatback behind our line would get hit behind the LOS twice as often.

watching the games i noticed bush gets his biggest gains by cutting back across the line (which is sealed off perfectly by the OT, TE, and WR ... dont expect that on our team). bush trying to do that on the texans is going to have dwight freeney turn him into pudding. dd can run outside just fine, we just dont have the blocking to keep him or anyone other rb standing past the LOS when trying to run wide. this is why DD gets good gains despite having to BREAK multiple tackles and carry defenders.

while our line occasionally gets praise for not being as terrible run blocking, make no mistake ... they deffinately arent anywhere near good at it.

that said, it's still my opinion that it doesnt matter how good leinhart or bush are, they cant carry this team (i'm one under the impression that too much of our team talent is not coachable to NFL starter level). other teams will likely be willing to mortgage their future for those two guys and the texans look to be in an incredible position to take advantage of that, and build a respectable team as soon as next year.

GP
12-06-2005, 09:44 AM
You got the question wrong.

Let me help you out. Which is the best choice: D'Brickashaw Ferguson or AJ Hawk?

Can we draft on NEED please?

After seeing our run defense get smoked all year, and after all the gritching about the offensive line, you'd think we'd be 100% in agreement here that this Texans team needs either a run stopper like Hawk or a pass rush stopper like Ferguson.

But, what do I know?

Yeah, yeah...I know..."But a player like Reggie Bush comes along only once in a lifetime and yakkity yakkity yakkity...blah blah blah...."

Desmond Howard was going to supplant Jerry Rice as the NFL's BIG receiver.

Ryan Leaf.

Kijana Carter.

Akili Smith.

Etc.

Etc.

A sure thing is not always a sure thing. And if we draft a Hawk or a Ferguson, I'd rather THOSE guys be busts than to draft a position we don't have a true need at, only to have it bust.

How long does this thread stay in the Bullpen forum? LOL.

metalmike
12-06-2005, 12:30 PM
You can't pass on a talent like Bush.
However it's hard to run with a high school o-line

Well I'm sure the Texans will make the wrong choice.
I hope not, but they haven't shown me any promise yet to making good choices

edo783
12-06-2005, 12:36 PM
neither i think we are making a huge mistake if we dont draft an OL or trade down and take OL and maybe a S or a TE or something or even 2 first round OL. Imagine the how good Carr and DD will be with a good OL. I understand they are rookies and some rookies never prosper but hey with this O-line we arent going anywhere. Thats why i cant understand why people are talking about drafting Bush.

Spot on.

Youngstown Colt
12-06-2005, 12:38 PM
Yeah, yeah...I know..."But a player like Reggie Bush comes along only once in a lifetime and yakkity yakkity yakkity...blah blah blah...."

Desmond Howard was going to supplant Jerry Rice as the NFL's BIG receiver.

Ryan Leaf.

Kijana Carter.

Akili Smith.

Etc.

Etc.
None of those are examples of the "once and a lifetime" draft picks. Those are just busts.

MorKnolle
12-06-2005, 12:49 PM
None of those are examples of the "once and a lifetime" draft picks. Those are just busts.

Most of them were being heralded as future stars coming out of college, maybe not quite as much as Bush but still they were supposed to be the next great thing. No one could tell when they were coming out of college that they would be busts, that is something you just have to wait and find out.

thetexanator
12-06-2005, 01:33 PM
there are BUSTS, but there is no one in the past 10 years who has proven more in the college ranks than Bush. couch, smith, KIJANA? they in no way compare to bush. theres no thing as a "sure thing", but this guy is as close to it as when Peyton Manning was coming out.

JDizzle
12-06-2005, 02:33 PM
You got the question wrong.

Let me help you out. Which is the best choice: D'Brickashaw Ferguson or AJ Hawk?

Can we draft on NEED please?


Good point. This early mock-draft has us picking Ferguson with the #1 overall pick (Link (http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/sub/mockdraft.html)).

A few other sites I've peeked at have labeled him an "elite prospect", let alone the top tackle / OL in next year's draft. I've never seen him play, mind you, but you can't really ignore him.

Given your two options there I'd take my chances with the LT, I cannot see Casserly (Assuming he's still here) going defense with the #1 3 years in a row, especially since we're on red alert regarding the offensive line, PARTICULARLY that position.

MorKnolle
12-06-2005, 02:33 PM
there are BUSTS, but there is no one in the past 10 years who has proven more in the college ranks than Bush. couch, smith, KIJANA? they in no way compare to bush. theres no thing as a "sure thing", but this guy is as close to it as when Peyton Manning was coming out.

Peyton Manning? I know he was supposed to be a great player coming out of college, but if my memory serves me correctly it was basically a toss up between him and Ryan Leaf and QB and look how that has panned out, so I wouldn't say Peyton was "the surest thing" to come out of college in a while.

how is Bush proven more in college than anyone else? Assume we take him #1 overall in the draft to be our star RB, let's see what Bush has "proven":
2003: 480 rushing yards, 5.9 ypc, 230 receiving yards, 7 total TDs
2004: 908 rushing yards, 6.4 ypc, 509 receiving yards, 13 total TDs
2005: 1658 rushing yards, 8.9 ypc, 383 receiving yards, 17 total TDs

What DeAngelo Williams has proven:
2002: 684 rushing yards, 6.6 ypc, 51 receiving yards, 5 total TDs
2003: 1430 rushing yards, 5.9 ypc, 384 receiving yards, 13 total TDs
2004: 1948 rushing yards, 6.2 ypc, 210 receiving yards, 23 total TDs
2005: 1726 rushing yards, 6.2 ypc, 80 receiving yards, 16 total TDs

What Adrian Peterson has proven:
2004: 1925 rushing yards, 5.7 ypc, 12 receiving yards, 15 total TDs
2005: 1024 rushing yards, 5.2 ypc, 42 receiving yards, 14 total TDs

What Cedric Benson proved:
2002: 1293 rushing yards, 4.2 ypc, 119 receiving yards, 12 total TDs
2003: 1277 rushing yards, 5.4 ypc, 108 receiving yards, 21 total TDs
2004: 1834 rushing yards, 5.6 ypc, 179 receiving yards, 20 total TDs

What Darren Sproles proved:
2002: 1465 rushing yards, 6.6 ypc, 99 receiving yards, 17 total TDs
2003: 1948 rushing yards, 6.2 ypc, 282 receiving yards, 17 total TDs
2004: 1318 rushing yards, 5.4 ypc, 223 receiving yards, 11 total TDs

Larry Johnson's senior year:
2087 rushing yards, 7.7 ypc, 349 receiving yards, 23 total TDs

Quentin Griffin's senior year:
1884 rushing yards, 6.6 ypc, 264 receiving yards, 18 total TDs

Anyways, do I think Bush will be a good to great NFL player? Yes. Has he "proven more than anyone else in the last 10 years"? No, not as a RB. He does have very good speed and quickness, not great size, and he has pretty nice kick and punt returning stats too, but generally you're not going to want your franchise RB as a full-time special teams player too. I think he is the most talented overall player in the draft, but I do not think he fits into our team. He has not "proven" to be the best pure RB in the last 20 years as some people have claimed. I would personally like to see him as a WR for us out there with Andre, Mathis, and Gaffney if he stays, but I don't see spending the first overall pick and $40+ million on a WR. If he was going to be our franchise RB then maybe, but I don't see him being a franchise RB that can carry the ball 25-30 times a gain like Tomlinson or Shaun Alexander, and I'm also not willing to spend a first overall pick and $40+ million on a part-time RB and special teams player. Anyways, that is my opinion, and you are obviously entitled to yours but let's not be saying he has proven more than anyone else at the college level because he hasn't. He has proven that he is an electrifying playmaker, is good returning kicks, and is a pretty good RB on the college level, that's about it.

tulexan
12-06-2005, 03:02 PM
Yeah but Reggie is putting up those stats on not that many carries. I bet if you compare their carries as well, his ypc is much higher.

MorKnolle
12-06-2005, 03:13 PM
Yeah but Reggie is putting up those stats on not that many carries. I bet if you compare their carries as well, his ypc is much higher.

I added those in. In my opinion it doesn't prove much. Bush does get more yards per carry but at the same time it shows how much less he is used than the others and doesn't answer any questions about his durability and being able to carry the ball 25-30 times a game like an NFL franchise RB will need to.

infantrycak
12-06-2005, 03:14 PM
Yeah but Reggie is putting up those stats on not that many carries. I bet if you compare their carries as well, his ypc is much higher.

And so is LenDale White. Hmmm, what do they have in common? I'm not buying they are both best of the decade type players.

thetexanator
12-06-2005, 03:43 PM
Peyton Manning? I know he was supposed to be a great player coming out of college, but if my memory serves me correctly it was basically a toss up between him and Ryan Leaf and QB and look how that has panned out, so I wouldn't say Peyton was "the surest thing" to come out of college in a while.

how is Bush proven more in college than anyone else? Assume we take him #1 overall in the draft to be our star RB, let's see what Bush has "proven":
2003: 480 rushing yards, 5.9 ypc, 230 receiving yards, 7 total TDs
2004: 908 rushing yards, 6.4 ypc, 509 receiving yards, 13 total TDs
2005: 1658 rushing yards, 8.9 ypc, 383 receiving yards, 17 total TDs

What DeAngelo Williams has proven:
2002: 684 rushing yards, 6.6 ypc, 51 receiving yards, 5 total TDs
2003: 1430 rushing yards, 5.9 ypc, 384 receiving yards, 13 total TDs
2004: 1948 rushing yards, 6.2 ypc, 210 receiving yards, 23 total TDs
2005: 1726 rushing yards, 6.2 ypc, 80 receiving yards, 16 total TDs

What Adrian Peterson has proven:
2004: 1925 rushing yards, 5.7 ypc, 12 receiving yards, 15 total TDs
2005: 1024 rushing yards, 5.2 ypc, 42 receiving yards, 14 total TDs

What Cedric Benson proved:
2002: 1293 rushing yards, 4.2 ypc, 119 receiving yards, 12 total TDs
2003: 1277 rushing yards, 5.4 ypc, 108 receiving yards, 21 total TDs
2004: 1834 rushing yards, 5.6 ypc, 179 receiving yards, 20 total TDs

What Darren Sproles proved:
2002: 1465 rushing yards, 6.6 ypc, 99 receiving yards, 17 total TDs
2003: 1948 rushing yards, 6.2 ypc, 282 receiving yards, 17 total TDs
2004: 1318 rushing yards, 5.4 ypc, 223 receiving yards, 11 total TDs

Larry Johnson's senior year:
2087 rushing yards, 7.7 ypc, 349 receiving yards, 23 total TDs

Quentin Griffin's senior year:
1884 rushing yards, 6.6 ypc, 264 receiving yards, 18 total TDs

Anyways, do I think Bush will be a good to great NFL player? Yes. Has he "proven more than anyone else in the last 10 years"? No, not as a RB. He does have very good speed and quickness, not great size, and he has pretty nice kick and punt returning stats too, but generally you're not going to want your franchise RB as a full-time special teams player too. I think he is the most talented overall player in the draft, but I do not think he fits into our team. He has not "proven" to be the best pure RB in the last 20 years as some people have claimed. I would personally like to see him as a WR for us out there with Andre, Mathis, and Gaffney if he stays, but I don't see spending the first overall pick and $40+ million on a WR. If he was going to be our franchise RB then maybe, but I don't see him being a franchise RB that can carry the ball 25-30 times a gain like Tomlinson or Shaun Alexander, and I'm also not willing to spend a first overall pick and $40+ million on a part-time RB and special teams player. Anyways, that is my opinion, and you are obviously entitled to yours but let's not be saying he has proven more than anyone else at the college level because he hasn't. He has proven that he is an electrifying playmaker, is good returning kicks, and is a pretty good RB on the college level, that's about it.

not based on stats, by your reasoning every tech quaterback would have been one of the best qb's around. im talking TALENT, lots of college players put up numbers, but my comparison to peyton manning was based on "sure thing" prospects not on gimmicky numbers. and the whole peyton vs. leaf debate, Peyton was a cant miss coming out, meaning he proved as much as can be proven at the college level LIKE bush. he did to passing what bush is doing to the running game. williams is good, hes no bush, benson is good, hes no bush. palmer is good hes no peyton. see my point?

MorKnolle
12-06-2005, 05:23 PM
not based on stats, by your reasoning every tech quaterback would have been one of the best qb's around. im talking TALENT, lots of college players put up numbers, but my comparison to peyton manning was based on "sure thing" prospects not on gimmicky numbers. and the whole peyton vs. leaf debate, Peyton was a cant miss coming out, meaning he proved as much as can be proven at the college level LIKE bush. he did to passing what bush is doing to the running game. williams is good, hes no bush, benson is good, hes no bush. palmer is good hes no peyton. see my point?
My point was simply that many people have been saying Bush is the best college player ever or he's proven so much more than anyone else, but looking at the stats he hasn't proven any more than many other people. Sure he has great talent and should be a good player, but he hasn't "proven" much beyond that. You can never say a person is a "can't miss" before they have made it to the league and proven themselves there.

Shaunny66
12-06-2005, 06:20 PM
Vince Young After Next Year!!! Good luck at the rose bowl Longhorns!!!:trophy: texanpride :coolb:

tulexan
12-06-2005, 06:45 PM
And so is LenDale White. Hmmm, what do they have in common? I'm not buying they are both best of the decade type players.


Actually...

Reggie Bush has 187 rushes for 1658 yards 15 touchdowns plus 31 catches for 381 yards receiving and 2 touchdowns

That averages out to 8.9 yards per carry and 12.4 yards per catch

LenDale white has 177 rushes for 1178 yards 21 touchdowns plus 14 catches for 219 yards and 2 touchdowns.

That averages out to 6.7 yards per carry and 15.6 yards per catch.

Your right, pretty similar. Now for the really interesting statistics.

Reggie Bush's touchdowns were from: 41, 1, 76, 29, 19, 11, 24, 34, 36, 45, 9, 6, 84, 42, 50, 45, 13, 10

His average touchdown length was. 31.9 yards

LenDale White's touchdowns were from: 3, 1, 1, 2, 32, 46, 1, 2, 1, 6, 3, 2, 21, 2, 16, 1, 6, 2, 5, 2, 19, 24, 8

His average touchdown length was. 8.95 yards

Reggie Bush earned almost every single one of his touchdowns. A lot of LenDale White's were short yardage situtations.

gg no re
12-06-2005, 10:14 PM
Can you also tell us how many men in the box that Reggie had to run past compared to LenDale White....

I'm pretty sure a guy who has to run through 8 men in the box earns his touchdown as much as the guy who scampers 30 yards.

YoungTexanFan
12-06-2005, 10:57 PM
Actually...

Reggie Bush has 187 rushes for 1658 yards 15 touchdowns plus 31 catches for 381 yards receiving and 2 touchdowns

That averages out to 8.9 yards per carry and 12.4 yards per catch

LenDale white has 177 rushes for 1178 yards 21 touchdowns plus 14 catches for 219 yards and 2 touchdowns.

That averages out to 6.7 yards per carry and 15.6 yards per catch.

Your right, pretty similar. Now for the really interesting statistics.

Reggie Bush's touchdowns were from: 41, 1, 76, 29, 19, 11, 24, 34, 36, 45, 9, 6, 84, 42, 50, 45, 13, 10

His average touchdown length was. 31.9 yards

LenDale White's touchdowns were from: 3, 1, 1, 2, 32, 46, 1, 2, 1, 6, 3, 2, 21, 2, 16, 1, 6, 2, 5, 2, 19, 24, 8

His average touchdown length was. 8.95 yards

Reggie Bush earned almost every single one of his touchdowns. A lot of LenDale White's were short yardage situtations.

thats a splendid bit of work put into your post, unfortunatly, when the team needs the first down, or the score from 5...when teams know you are going to run, bush was next to our next head coach.

tulexan
12-06-2005, 11:26 PM
thats a splendid bit of work put into your post, unfortunatly, when the team needs the first down, or the score from 5...when teams know you are going to run, bush was next to our next head coach.


Tiki Barber isn't in around the goal line, neither is Warrick Dunn, does that mean that they are bad running backs? And that is funny because I remember during the UCLA game USC was on their own 2 yard line and it was 3rd and 10 and Reggie Bush (you know that guy who isn't trusted on 3rd downs) ran for 65 yards. I don't know how many times I have to say this. I am not advocating that we get rid of all of our running backs and only have Reggie Bush. I would be more than happy to have Dominack Davis come back and play for us next year with Reggie. I just don't see how you can pass on a talent like that. He has been working on his inside the tackles running too with LaDanian Tomlinson in the offseason.

I'm sure now I am going to hear the typical argument of "why draft the guy #1 if he is going to split time at running back?" and my answer has been and still will be that you should view him more as an offensive playmaker rather than just a running back.

royce1054
12-06-2005, 11:28 PM
You can't pass on a talent like Bush.
However it's hard to run with a high school o-line

Well I'm sure the Texans will make the wrong choice.
I hope not, but they haven't shown me any promise yet to making good choices

Yes i could

MorKnolle
12-06-2005, 11:51 PM
Tiki Barber isn't in around the goal line, neither is Warrick Dunn, does that mean that they are bad running backs? And that is funny because I remember during the UCLA game USC was on their own 2 yard line and it was 3rd and 10 and Reggie Bush (you know that guy who isn't trusted on 3rd downs) ran for 65 yards. I don't know how many times I have to say this. I am not advocating that we get rid of all of our running backs and only have Reggie Bush. I would be more than happy to have Dominack Davis come back and play for us next year with Reggie. I just don't see how you can pass on a talent like that. He has been working on his inside the tackles running too with LaDanian Tomlinson in the offseason.

I'm sure now I am going to hear the typical argument of "why draft the guy #1 if he is going to split time at running back?" and my answer has been and still will be that you should view him more as an offensive playmaker rather than just a running back.

I don't deny that Bush is a rare talent, but drafting Bush and keeping Domanick Davis will have at least $65 million tied up in our two running backs and eat up more money than our entire O-Line. We could conceivably draft him and use him mainly as a WR and then a 3rd down RB, but that is using the #1 overall pick and $45+ million on a WR which I also don't see as a good option. He is versatile and can return kicks too, but Mathis is excellent at kickoff returns and I wouldn't want to put our franchise RB/WR at full time punt return duty. We have more important issues to use the money and draft pick on. I wish it wasn't that way because I'd love to have Reggie Bush, but I don't see it being the best option for us.

texplayer2
12-07-2005, 12:07 AM
What other player are you going to get at that position in the draft that can do as much for us as Bush? :tv: Watch the Rose Bowl and see what he does against a "good" defense. If he is not in the play or running for yardage, he will be occupying several defenders.( Which is the job of the offensive line right?)It seems defense is played to limit the possibilities of an offense succeeding. Bush adds alot of possibilities that a traditional RB or WR do not. Have you seen some of those WR reverses?:embarrass ing

MorKnolle
12-07-2005, 12:25 AM
There will be several teams interested in trading up for Bush and Leinart, so we should be able to trade down to 5-8 pick and likely pick up more value than that draft pick value chart has because of the top couple players. Assuming we do end up with the #1 pick, we can trade down four to eight slots and likely pick up a second rounder for this year and a first rounder for next year. With our first round pick get the best OL available (Eric Winston in my opinion, maybe Ferguson, we'll have to see how the combine and workouts go), pick up another OL with one of our second or third round picks to solidify the line, pick up a WR somewhere in there to give Carr another weapon, and get a safety and pass rusher to help out our defense. That would currently be my choice for our first five picks, and trading the #1 pick away would add two of those. So we can:

1) Draft Bush, draft a 2nd round quality OL, draft a 3rd round quality OL ( I think we need to draft to OL this year), and then a 3rd round quality pass rusher or S/CB.
2) Draft a top OL, draft a 2nd round quality OL and 2nd round quality WR/CB, draft a 3rd round quality pass rusher and a 3rd round quality CB/S, and probably save $15 million or more in not having to shell out for a contract for a #1 overall pick.

In my mind option 2 is better, but I will get more into the whole draft and everything later in the year after the NFL and college seasons are over.

TexansCanes
12-07-2005, 04:04 AM
Did you just say that Pete Carroll is going to be our next coach?

gg no re
12-07-2005, 10:12 AM
CARROLL FOR COACH '06

YEEEAAAHHH

He is teh obvious choice FTW.

MorKnolle
12-07-2005, 10:16 AM
I really doubt Carroll comes unless we hand over a significant portion of the GM duties to him too, which may or may not be a good choice. I'm still not sold on his coaching skills in the pros.

edo783
12-07-2005, 10:40 AM
I really doubt Carroll comes unless we hand over a significant portion of the GM duties to him too, which may or may not be a good choice. I'm still not sold on his coaching skills in the pros.

My thoughts also. IMO, he would be a bit of a risk and I don't think we want to take much risk at this point in time for a HC. We screwed up on the first one and I don't think we could with stand a second "oops".