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Vinny
11-29-2005, 05:00 PM
He said he was undecided about coming out at this point and stated he isn't thinking about anything but playing for his teammates right now... he did not say he was staying like he stated earlier. They asked him point blank if he would like to play for Houston and said he would love it and would like to play here in his hometown.

edo783
11-29-2005, 05:43 PM
Great that he would love to play for the Texans, but IMO, he isn't what the teams needs at this point.

God of Wine
11-29-2005, 05:46 PM
I have been wondering what Reggie Bush would say if they asked him the same question.

hot pickle
11-29-2005, 09:51 PM
I think that reggie would play here, he doesn't seem like the kind of player that will refuse to play for a team, but i don't know him so i could be wrong

ccdude730
11-29-2005, 10:17 PM
"i dont have a choice" was one of his answers also when asked if he would like to come to the houston texans.

young isnt needed here IMO

kbourda
11-29-2005, 10:40 PM
"i dont have a choice" was one of his answers also when asked if he would like to come to the houston texans.

young isnt needed here IMO

The "I don't have a choice" was said after he was asked by Tony Kornheiser would he play for the Texans if his name was called on draft day by the Texans.

kbourda
11-29-2005, 10:41 PM
Great that he would love to play for the Texans, but IMO, he isn't what the teams needs at this point.

That can be debated a great deal.

Napa Auto Parts
11-29-2005, 10:54 PM
How sweet would it be if he did enter the draft there's no way we could pass up on him after all this is a business and nothing would sell more tickets than a M.vick type player hopefully only better.

Fiddy
11-29-2005, 10:55 PM
YAY!!!!

:yahoo:

Too bad I missed PTI today. :(

bigcarlos
11-29-2005, 11:01 PM
He is what this team needs.......IMO:texflag:

MorKnolle
11-29-2005, 11:21 PM
Vince Young is about the last person in college football that we would need right now, and we should not draft him unless he somehow drops to the 3rd round or below, which won't happen.

tulexan
11-29-2005, 11:38 PM
Well we aren't going to be drafting him so this shouldn't even be a discussion. John Clayton tonight said on Sportscenter that Bob McNair has said that he is planning on exercising the $8 million option on Carr because there isn't a quarterback in the draft that has the passing and running abilities that David has. Clayton also said that Capers will most likely be fired for not utilizing David's skills.

I think they are going to sign Kubiak because he has experience using strong armed mobile quarterbacks and has had a lot of success with them.

Fiddy
11-29-2005, 11:50 PM
John Clayton tonight said on Sportscenter that Bob McNair has said that he is planning on exercising the $8 million option on Carr because there isn't a quarterback in the draft that has the passing and running abilities that David has. Yeah it will be hard to find another QB that has the running ablility to break a good pocket and then get sacked outside the pocket. And it will also be hard to find another QB that throws the 2 yard hitch as well as Carr...

tulexan
11-30-2005, 12:10 AM
David Carr does have the second highest rushing yards for a quarterback behind Michael Vick. There is also not much you can do when the plays called are short hitches and not moving the ball down the field. It is also hard to throw anything more than short hitches when you have to get rid of the ball in 1.3 seconds rather than 3. Like it or not, David Carr will be our quarterback for the next few years. Vince Young will not start his career as a Texan. It is not going to happen. Just because the guy is a good player, from Houston, and playing at UT does not make him a #1 overall pick. I have yet to see a mock draft where he is drafted over Reggie Bush, Matt Leinart, or D'Brickinshaw Ferguson. He is good, but he is still a project. You don't draft a project at #1.

Hervoyel
11-30-2005, 12:11 AM
Yeah it will be hard to find another QB that has the running ablility to break a good pocket and then get sacked outside the pocket. And it will also be hard to find another QB that throws the 2 yard hitch as well as Carr...


Yeah, see the problem there is that your typical rookie QB doesn't have the "touch" to throw that 2 yard hitch and doesn't develop it until he's at least coming to the end of his second season.

StarStruck
11-30-2005, 01:54 AM
David Carr does have the second highest rushing yards for a quarterback behind Michael Vick.

Since he's usually running for his life, I'm surprised that he doesn't have as many yards as LaDanian Tomlinson.:texflag:

PapaL
11-30-2005, 06:10 AM
How sweet would it be if he did enter the draft there's no way we could pass up on him after all this is a business and nothing would sell more tickets than a M.vick type player hopefully only better.

Thats what we said about Derrick Johnson last year. If Young comes out this year, we aim for Vick2 next year.

MorKnolle
11-30-2005, 09:26 AM
They were talking about Vince Young on 610 radio this morning and they all agreed that they didn't see Vince being picked in the top 10 this year. I'm not totally sure I agree with that, but I still see him as being the 3-5 QB taken in the draft so it just depends on what teams are looking for a QB and where their picks are at.

Texans Horror
11-30-2005, 01:03 PM
That's cause he had a bad game against A&M. Assume he wins the National Championship for Texas. Then let's see if he goes in the Top 10. I'm sure Arizona, Baltimore, and a lot of other teams would love to pass on a QB with his poise.

Blake
11-30-2005, 01:28 PM
They were talking about Vince Young on 610 radio this morning and they all agreed that they didn't see Vince being picked in the top 10 this year. I'm not totally sure I agree with that, but I still see him as being the 3-5 QB taken in the draft so it just depends on what teams are looking for a QB and where their picks are at.

I dont think he is a lock for a top 10 pick. Here are the top 10 teams at this moment. I could see him going in the top 20.

1 Houston - Carr. They will look elsewhere.
2 New York Jets - Pennington. They have so much money invested.
3 San Francisco - Alex Smith
4 Green Bay - Aaron Rogers
5 Tennessee - Billy Volek.
6 Arizona - Should jump up and take Matt Lienart.
7 New Orleans - Brooks, and backing up brooks is Adrian McPherson.
8 Baltimore - Possible QB pick.
9 Miami - Possible QB pick.
10 Buffalo - JP Losman

Also, Jay Cutler is looking great this year. He might end up being the 2nd QB taken.

Fiddy
11-30-2005, 01:36 PM
I don't pay to go to games to watch Mike Vick run up his personal yardage, listen to everyone fellate him for being such a prime athlete, and then see him lose when he coasts into the playoffs in the worst division (not any more, but years past) in all of football and gets beat down by a real team. Didnt Mike Vick get to the NFC Championship game last year??? He has gone as far as Manning in the playoffs in less time.

And this is a fact: When Vick plays, Falcons win. When Vick sits, Falcons lose. Vick wins, and that's all that counts.

In 2003, the year Vick got injured in the preseason, the Atlanta Falcons went 2-10 without Vick and 3-1 with Vick.
In contrast, as Vinny has brought up a few times, the Houston Texans had their best stretch of the franchise in 2003 when Carr was on the bench and Banks was starting/getting most of the snaps in a game.

Texans Horror
11-30-2005, 01:37 PM
I dont think he is a lock for a top 10 pick. Here are the top 10 teams at this moment. I could see him going in the top 20.

1 Houston - Carr. They will look elsewhere.
2 New York Jets - Pennington. They have so much money invested.
3 San Francisco - Alex Smith
4 Green Bay - Aaron Rogers
5 Tennessee - Billy Volek.
6 Arizona - Should jump up and take Matt Lienart.
7 New Orleans - Brooks, and backing up brooks is Adrian McPherson.
8 Baltimore - Possible QB pick.
9 Miami - Possible QB pick.
10 Buffalo - JP Losman

Also, Jay Cutler is looking great this year. He might end up being the 2nd QB taken.

Help me out here. The way I see this, there are potentially 3 teams looking for a QB, and IMO two others (Tenn and NO) who could be added. McNair is on his way out, and a lot of people are doubting Brooks. But regardless, let's say 3. Why wouldn't Baltimore or Miami, who have had QB woes for years now, not go for Vince? Just curious on your opinion.

Texas_Thrill
11-30-2005, 01:42 PM
I don't even see VY going past the Jets honestly. This could be a toss-up out of him and bush for the jets but i dont think you toss out a curtis martin the way he has performed and i'm not sure you bring in a bush and sit him. A RB's time is limited.

Pennington can't stay healthy regardless of the money invested. I think the J E T S JETS JETS taking VY if he comes out.

cadahnic
11-30-2005, 01:52 PM
Vince needs to keep his athletic, randall cunningham(not mike Vick), inaccuarate Houston behind in school one more year so he can compete with Brady Quinn for the top pick next year. This year though Leinhart and Jacobs rule the QB market. Leinhart will likely end up in Zona and Jacobs is a definate fit for Miami or Baltimore. Jay Cutler is my sleeper 1st rounder to go late to the lions. The Saints are thinking about getting rid of Brooks since he is due some serious cash next year. He may be dealt or dropped for someone else. NO may move to SA, OKcity, or LA and they will want some marquee name to help that transistion.

Fiddy
11-30-2005, 02:15 PM
When Vick wins a Super Bowl or finishes his career as consistently one of the top quarterbacks in the league, we can talk about what a great player he is. In the meantime, drafting a completely substandard version of him (Vince Young: less speed, less arm, less accuracy, less upside, but more height: yay for that) is an utter waste.

Fiddy, I know you are not a fan of Carr, and though I disagree, I respect your right to the opinion, because even though statistics are not the end-all, be-all analysis of greatness, through them you can make a legitimate claim to your case. That's fine, so be it. Great players dont need stats, they need wins. Vick wins, that's why he gets paid. How you can judge's Vince's game speed, arm and accuracy is beyond me. VY my not be as fast as Vick, but he makes DB's looks slow. At times it looks like his arm isnt the greatest but that is because he has learned how to put touch on his balls. He's had more than a few long balls this year. And he is the most accuarte passer in Texas Longhorn history if I recall correctly.

That said, how could Vince Young possibly be what we need? He could suit up next game and he would look positively rotten if he was playing under the same conditions Carr currently endures. Look at the candy *** collegiate schedule he has built his statistics against this year. Honestly look at our team as it sits now and tell me he is the most prominent answer to what ails us. We have so much else to deal with first. What conditions did Carr endure against the Rams??? He had time and he was finding open WRs. And then the game got close and he couldnt do anything. Look at the drive in OT, Carr was going with first reads, he wasnt giving the play a chance to develop. He was playing not to lose. He did not want to throw the INT that went back for a TD, he didnt want the blame so he did quick throws where he is hoping for the WR or RB to do something. With the game on the line, there really is not a more clutch college QB than Vince Young. They flash his comeback record everytime the Longhorns are down in a game and it's impressive. That and his 18 game win streak. Two big, national television games, Ohio State and Michigan, and Vince Young has come up big in both of them and comes off as Superman. Yes, he turned the ball over a couple times in each game and yes he made dumb mistakes and yes he made big plays through the air and on the ground to win both.

Candy *** schedule??? That WAC schedule that Carr racked up yardage against must have been tough.

Carr's college schedule where he racked up over 4,000 yards passing:
Aug 25 at Colorado
Sep 1 Oregon St
Sep 8 at Wisconsin
Sep 15 Utah St
Sep 22 at Tulsa
Sep 29 La Tech
Oct 13 at Col State
Oct 20 Boise St
Oct 27 at Hawaii
Nov 3 Rice
Nov 10 at SMU
Nov 17 at Nevada
Nov 24 SJSU

That looks tough :dontknowa

I know you didnt mention him but to get this out of the way: Matt Leinart has been going up against a schedule that is, if I added right (there's a posiblity I didnt), 67-65 (.5076). Vince Young has been going up against a schedule that is 73-60 (.5489). I guess Leinart's is more candy ***.

Blake
11-30-2005, 02:25 PM
But regardless, let's say 3. Why wouldn't Baltimore or Miami, who have had QB woes for years now, not go for Vince? Just curious on your opinion.


I guess I just feel that some teams would rather not gamble on a QB. You may be right. He may get scooped up at #5. But there are 2 QB's that should be NFL rated higher than him.

Also, the Ravens are a defensive team. I dont think they want to play QB carousel. Billick will probably opt for a lineman, or linebacker.

BigBull17
11-30-2005, 02:32 PM
Great players dont need stats, they need wins. Vick wins, that's why he gets paid. How you can judge's Vince's game speed, arm and accuracy is beyond me. VY my not be as fast as Vick, but he makes DB's looks slow. At times it looks like his arm isnt the greatest but that is because he has learned how to put touch on his balls. He's had more than a few long balls this year. And he is the most accuarte passer in Texas Longhorn history if I recall correctly.

But he won't be able to make Pro DB's look slow. He is against substandard boys below his level. In the NFL it will be bigger, stronger, faster men who chase him. I'm not saying he has no hope of being a starter but there is NO guarentee(sp) that he is the next big thing. He could be Mike Vick or a peice of garbage who sits on our bench for 4 yrs. drawing a check.

Fiddy
11-30-2005, 02:35 PM
But he won't be able to make Pro DB's look slow. He is against substandard boys below his level. In the NFL it will be bigger, stronger, faster men who chase him. I'm not saying he has no hope of being a starter but there is NO guarentee(sp) that he is the next big thing. He could be Mike Vick or a peice of garbage who sits on our bench for 4 yrs. drawing a check. Every players we take has a chance of being a bust. David Carr isnt near what he was built up to be coming out of Fresno. Every pick is a risk but I'd rather take a risk on a player who has a history of being electric and winning.

edo783
11-30-2005, 02:49 PM
What conditions did Carr endure against the Rams??? He had time and he was finding open WRs. And then the game got close and he couldnt do anything. Look at the drive in OT, Carr was going with first reads, he wasnt giving the play a chance to develop. He was playing not to lose. He did not want to throw the INT that went back for a TD, he didnt want the blame so he did quick throws where he is hoping for the WR or RB to do something.



Fiddy, that is just not true. Those decissions are coaching ones and our coaches turn turtle when ever they have a lead. Most of the time even when they don't have the lead, but to say that about is just not true.

Fiddy
11-30-2005, 02:57 PM
Fiddy, that is just not true. Those decissions are coaching ones and our coaches turn turtle when ever they have a lead. Most of the time even when they don't have the lead, but to say that about is just not true. I sat there watching it on the big screen in the bubble, and watched his body language. I knew he was playing not to lose. He didnt want the blame.

The OT Drive
1-10-HOU20 (15:00) D.Carr pass to M.Rivers to HST 33 for 13 yards (A.Hargrove).
1-10-HOU33 (14:25) D.Carr pass to M.Bruener to HST 36 for 3 yards (C.Johnson).
2-7-HOU36 (13:48) D.Davis right end to HST 48 for 12 yards (P.Tinoisamoa, Jerome.Carter).
1-10-HOU48 (13:10) D.Davis left guard to SL 47 for 5 yards (A.Hargrove, C.Ivy).
2-5-STL47 (12:33) D.Carr pass incomplete to A.Johnson (J.Kennedy). Play Challenged by Review Assistant and Upheld.
3-5-STL47 (12:26) D.Carr sacked at SL 47 for 0 yards (O.Atogwe).

Rivers and Bruener dont catch balls all game long, but now they appear in the first two plays of OT. Those plays werent designed for the TEs. How do I know this? I don't, it's speculation on my part but the coaches arent THAT stupid. They knew they had to get the ball to AJ, they were doing it all game. They didnt change it in OT, Carr's mentality changed.

And if someone could go back and check, was Davis run off left guard an audible??? I don't remember.

And am I the only one that feels on the sack, Carr should have just thrown it up in the air near one of his WRs??? It's as good as a punt in some ways and it gives your team a chance, especially in OT.

tulexan
11-30-2005, 03:19 PM
Every players we take has a chance of being a bust. David Carr isnt near what he was built up to be coming out of Fresno. Every pick is a risk but I'd rather take a risk on a player who has a history of being electric and winning.

No, you would rather take a guy from Houston who plays at Texas. If Vince Young played in the Big 10 or SEC you would probably could care less if he played for the Texans. But because he is a local guy you want him. It is understandable, but you have a biased opinion.

Porky
11-30-2005, 03:30 PM
Fiddy, you da man. All great points. :texflag:

Fiddy
11-30-2005, 03:35 PM
Quoting Carr's collegiate statistics might be relevant if the decision was between drafting him and Vince this year, but it's not so let's move on. Carr has proven in games and seasons past that he has the ability, Vince Young has not proven that he is anything against NFL defenses and, I reiterate, under the current staff and roster we currently possess. What ability has Carr proven? He has not once in his career taken over a game and won it for his team.

As to how I can judge his speed, accuracy, and other attributes, it is simple: I watch the same tape you are watching, only I pay attention to all of it, not just the highlight reel. I visualize the player's future in the NFL, and how he would look against players and teams that resemble what he would be facing in the NFL.

Saying that Vince Young is the most accurate passer in Longhorns history again proves nothing, especially since I am struggling to remember the last time a QB came out of UT and did big in the League in the last two decades. But my memory doesn't go back that far, so if there is some big name lurking back there that I don't remember, by all means, refresh it. Yeah, I guess you're right. Any scrub can come off the streets and complete 63% of his passes his junior year in college.

Young is the only player in the nation that can complete 63% of his passes and still be considered not accurate enough as a QB. It is quite amazing.

Chris Simms does start for a NFL team, now I'm not saying he is great but NFL caliber he is and he has done something in his career that Carr has never done: Throw for 250+ yards and 3 TDs in a win. Just throwing that out there.

This is all a moot point, however, because in the end, you contend that Carr is the source of the Texans problems, whereas I contend that his performance indicates that he cannot get it done in the system he has been provided with. Carr has the talent to get the job done, and I would hate that we bring your statistical circus onboard and think that he is going to be some dramatic improvement, which again, under our current team and management, he would look nothing like this titan of football glory that you fancy him as at UT. I am of the belief that if Carr had shown more in practice and in games the coaching staff would have given him more freedom.

The only difference between Joey Harrigton and Carr is Harrigton has had coaches that will sit him on the bench when he sucks it up. Carr sucked it up in the Chiefs game but Capers stuck with him. Give me the name of another unproven 4th year QB in NFL history that would have been able to have the game Carr had without being benched???

None of this will be proven until he comes to the NFL: my only point is, stop looking at one of most dedicated, talented, and determined players on the Texans roster and heaping all of our problems on him. Like the game is a one-man sport all of a sudden. I'm not putting all the problems on Carr, just the offensive ones. He can't play DB and cant help the secondary.

On another note, you compare UT's opponents' schedule versus USC's, and make the claim that on the basis of W-L alone, that "Leinart's" schedule is more candy *** than Vince's. However, USC has played four top 25 opponents to UT's 3, while UT's schedule has consisted of such perennial Big 12 powerhouses as:

Baylor
Kansas
Rice
Missouri
Louisiana Lafayette (not Big 12, but you get the point)

How you could even make that comparison and keep a straight face is beyond me, but as it is irrelevant to the discussion, I will ignore it from henceforth. OH NO!!! One more top 25 team. OH, the greatness of USC.

Yeah, USC played those powerhouses of Washington, Washington State and Arizona.

El Tejano
11-30-2005, 03:37 PM
Yeah it will be hard to find another QB that has the running ablility to break a good pocket and then get sacked outside the pocket. And it will also be hard to find another QB that throws the 2 yard hitch as well as Carr...
Ha Ha Ha. But Vince throws that same hitch pass with Texas. Sometimes you have to think Greg Davis and Chris Palmer are some kind of brothers and every now and then invite each other into their booths and let them call a couple of plays for a series.

But lets look at it this way. UT fans will know what I am talking about when I say that Greg Davis used to call a very conservative offense (understatement) but as Vince Young developed the offensive play calling has expanded. Much of that had to do with the fact that Vince Young single handedly changed all that through his athleticism but most of it was because of his hard work at becoming a better all around QB. Vince Young is Steve Mcnairs Godson so he goes to work out with him every offseason and it has shown this year. He is picking up defensive schemes better every year. I think you have to bring this kid in to give David the competition he needs for the job.

I am a Carr fan but if this kid is available you go for him.

Fiddy
11-30-2005, 03:41 PM
No, you would rather take a guy from Houston who plays at Texas. If Vince Young played in the Big 10 or SEC you would probably could care less if he played for the Texans. But because he is a local guy you want him. It is understandable, but you have a biased opinion. I'm not gonna lie, I do have bias towards Young, like Fresno boys have bias towards Carr. (Not saying your from Fresno) But I have been able to watch Vince Young grow dramatically over a 11 month period. If he played in the SEC or Big 10, I wouldnt have been able to see him as much and would have reserved judgement on him. I have never once talked about a player that I don't watch. I have only seen Brady Quinn play a couple of times this year so I dont talk about him.

Fiddy
11-30-2005, 04:28 PM
He was 7-9 last year before bad management and injuries to the functioning OL and key players (Mathis, AJ, and Davis have missed quite a few games) screwed the pooch this year. Even at that, I will concede, he has looked rough at times. Rough enough to cut him and move on without ever really giving him a chance? No. Strength of our schedule had something to do with that. Carr has never beaten a top notch team. Never. Banks beat the Panthers their Super Bowl year when Carr was hurt. He took the Pats to OT. He got most of the snaps in the Falcons game. Carr had the guts to finish it with the bum shoulder, but Banks put us in position to win before he broke his hand. The best stretch of this franchise came with Tony Banks at QB.

Speaking of offensive lines, Young plays behind one of the absolute best in the nation. You are right that he is a junior, and that he has even less experience against quality competition. I don't have time to type out the list of quarterbacks who put up good numbers in college (Jason White from OU, handed your Longhorns a stomping or two) but couldn't hack it in the League. The WRs he was throwing to and the defense that shut down UT are hacking it in the league. You said I was making Carr the whole reason we lost, you just made White the whole reason OU won.

Way to pick a completely arbitrary statistical combination in defense of Simms' - what, 2? - career NFL W's, in an attempt to make a comparison of NFL ability. Just pointing out a fact. I really dont even like Simms. He chokes too much for my liking. And I think he has around 4 career W's. I think.

You obviously think highly of our coaching staff. Do I really have to go through the list of where and why they were all previously fired? Second chance is over, fire them and then see what the new guys can do. These guys arent total morons. Why would they risk their jobs by not playing to what Carr has shown??? The wouldnt. They figure the best way to win is to not give Carr too much responsiblity.

Do you know the reason we never went to the short drops like was promised in training camp??? Carr threw too many INTs which was evident in the last 2 preseason games. The coaching staff couldnt trust him to make the read. And dont blame the WRs or O-line on his inablity to throw short drops. Short drop throws are all on the QB unless it is dropped.


Now you are just talking crazy. I don't have that kind of time.No, please, name me a QB that could have had that kind of game Carr had against the Chiefs and not get benched during it??? Except for the obvious (Manning, Vick, Brady, etc.) you probably couldnt think of one. Harrington throws a stinker, he is on the bench. Carr throws a stinker, we find another goat.


One more Top 25 and two less absolute lemons.

Like I say, we'll see who beats who in this year's championship. Fine by me.

Fiddy
11-30-2005, 04:38 PM
News flash: Pendry coaches Carr not to throw the long ball. Remember Jacksonville? Down 7 with less than a minute to go, Carr chucks it long to a wide, stank open Corey Bradford on fourth down, a fast receiver who had beaten his one-on-one coverage. It comes over Bradford's shoulder, into his hands ... and right f-ing through them.

As if it wasn't enough that Bradford dropped yet another clutch, perfectly thrown ball, Pendry actually bitches out Carr on the sideline for not going with the "safe" pass to Andre Johnson ... ten yards down the field and a good thirty away from the goalline. When Carr rightfully defends the play - one hell of a pass - Gary Walker bitches him out too.

Blame Carr all you want, but this is the coach's team, and right now, he is not remotely encouraged to think big play. I didnt say the play was called for a long ball, I said throw it up in the air near a WR. You're gonna get sacked, give your WR a chance in OT especially since your defense is sucking air. If you get the INT, so what??? It's would be like a punt. Maybe you get a catch or an interference, but give your guys a chance...

infantrycak
11-30-2005, 05:41 PM
Strength of our schedule had something to do with that. Carr has never beaten a top notch team. Never. Banks beat the Panthers their Super Bowl year when Carr was hurt. He took the Pats to OT. He got most of the snaps in the Falcons game. Carr had the guts to finish it with the bum shoulder, but Banks put us in position to win before he broke his hand. The best stretch of this franchise came with Tony Banks at QB.

This is cute for people who don't like Carr, but it implies something completely out of step with reality--that Carr vs. Banks is what controlled those games. So Banks beat the Panthers? Funny how 158 yds, 13 completions and 1 TD would be nothing but disappointment if it was Carr. Where is the theory that the O was dumbed down (as it clearly was in that game) because the coaches knew the QB couldn't take any more? How about some credit to Aaron Glenn for the INT, or to DD for averaging 6.2 ypc against a top D? Putting that aside, it is certainly clear that Banks' steller 40% passing day for 93 yds is what carried us into competition with the Pats, not Ramon Walker blocking both a punt and a field goal, or the two INT's from Eric Brown and Marcus Coleman. It is a team game. On those two days the team stepped up and played well with Banks, not him winning games or his steller play keeping them in games even.

Fiddy
11-30-2005, 06:07 PM
This is cute for people who don't like Carr, but it implies something completely out of step with reality--that Carr vs. Banks is what controlled those games. So Banks beat the Panthers? Funny how 158 yds, 13 completions and 1 TD would be nothing but disappointment if it was Carr. Where is the theory that the O was dumbed down (as it clearly was in that game) because the coaches knew the QB couldn't take any more? How about some credit to Aaron Glenn for the INT, or to DD for averaging 6.2 ypc against a top D? Putting that aside, it is certainly clear that Banks' steller 40% passing day for 93 yds is what carried us into competition with the Pats, not Ramon Walker blocking both a punt and a field goal, or the two INT's from Eric Brown and Marcus Coleman. It is a team game. On those two days the team stepped up and played well with Banks, not him winning games or his steller play keeping them in games even. I never said Banks was great those games but he did what he had to do. Ironically, the team never "steps up" when Carr is in the game. I'm not saying Carr influences the defense or speical teams but if Banks throws an INT in the Carolina game, we lose and the team stepping up is never looked at. Banks did what he had to do to win.

I feel the defense stepped up in the Bengals game by holding them to 16 points, now Carr has to direct his offensive to score more than 10. If Banks was in there and got one more TD, you probably would have said it wasnt Banks, it was the D stepping up and limiting the high powered offense to 16 points. Carr doesnt step up and fumbles the game away so the team doesnt look like it steps up when in reality they did.

If Carr went out every week and threw for 158 and 1 TD and we won, I'd be happy cause he is doing enough to win.

Like Kyle Orton in Chicago, he does what he had to and doesnt give the game away. He allows his defense to do what it does and makes one or two plays a game to win it and doesnt make one or two plays to lose it. We were in the KC game until Carr decided to lock onto a quick one step out route which was picked off and taken to the house. If Carr doesnt throw the INT, the game has a different complextion. Now Carr doesnt have Orton's defense, but he can't make stupid decisions like the INT at the end of the half in KC or not throwing the ball up on 3rd down in OT when he was about to be sacked and he is on his side of the field.

---------
And in the Pats game, Eric Brown got a INT at the goal line on 2nd or 3rd down I believe and then fumbled to give the Pats another 3 tries to get a TD, which I think they did. That INT acually hurt the team.

real
11-30-2005, 06:26 PM
great post

tulexan
11-30-2005, 06:29 PM
David Carr went into Miami the first week of the season in '03 and beat a Miami team which was one of the better teams in the AFC. He didn't have a great game, but he didn't turn the ball over at all like you praise Tony Banks for doing.

Fiddy
11-30-2005, 06:43 PM
David Carr went into Miami the first week of the season in '03 and beat a Miami team which was one of the better teams in the AFC. He didn't have a great game, but he didn't turn the ball over at all like you praise Tony Banks for doing. I praise him for that win, that was a great moment in his career and at that time I thought he was going to start his rise to stardom.

I don't know if it gets much clearer than as was said by infantrycak. You take a small handful of games, ignore the type of statistical facts you have been basing your entire "argument" upon all afternoon, and more or less explicitly state that it was Banks versus Carr that made the difference in this "lengthy" win streak. I have to take a small handful of games because a small handful of games is all Banks played.

What other changes were made in those games other than Carr and Banks??? Not one that I know of. Davis was already the starter, AJ had shown what he could do and the defense was going through injuries. The only non-constant in the wins against top-notch teams were Banks and Carr.

Then, of all games, you bring up this year's Cincinnatti game, a game in which Carr was driving the ball downfield and slung out the incomplete, forward pass before the official screwed us out of one of the most ineptly-called, obvious replays in history. The NFL formally apologized to the Texans for the call. In condeming Carr's play, you conveniently ignore that the other twenty-one players on the field, but are quick to praise Banks for "getting the job done," again, in total isolation of the remainder of the picture. How would you know if the NFL apoligized for the call??? They do not do that publicly. A apology is only between the team and NFL. And look at the replay, I think it is Herv that will agree (I think Herv was very adament that it was a fumble), Carr did not have complete control of the ball and nontheless, if Carr acts like a QB and takes one step up in the pocket the play never occurs.

Carr had a chance to get the job done in the Cinci game, he didnt. The 'D' held the Cinci 'O' down all game but Carr couldnt help muster a GW drive.

This alone should disqualify your argument for Vince Young, since he has yet to play an NFL down. Have we proven your logic void yet? No, not yet.

WWJD
11-30-2005, 07:06 PM
Funny how threads take on a life of their own.

I logged on because it said Vince Young and the majority of the thread is about David Carr.:)

Hervoyel
11-30-2005, 07:46 PM
Just a couple of things because like WWJD I looked in here to see what was being said about Vince Young. Little did I know...

Anyway yes, it was a fumble. During the stretch of games Tony Banks started in 2003 the team settled down with him at QB. In the Indy game Carr was off to a great start (8 of 9 for 62 yards and a TD) but he looked kind of tight to me. He'd had a real bad game against Tennessee a couple of weeks prior and had lost a very winnable game against the Jets the week before.

Banks wasn't very good against the Colts but the team did seem to settle down and focus with him taking the snaps. At that point in the season I seem to remember that Carr looked like he was pushing too hard and the team was picking that up and doing it too. Banks just seemed to calm everyone down when he came in the game. The next week against Carolina it was the same thing. The Texans offense didn't have that generally confused "frantic" look about it.

Carr came back against the Bengals and had a reasonable game considering he was hurting some. The rest of the team played pretty hard for Carr (like they had for Banks against Carolina) but we lost. That couldn't have been good for Carr's confidence but honestly it was a close loss. Both teams were scoring that day, our offense just went quiet first.

Then it was Banks again for games against the Bills, Patriots, and Falcons. In all three of those games the team just seemed to play very, very hard and to borrow a Dom-ism the did a good job of "executing" the plays.

Carr could have won those games but nobody wins a game alone. I believe that Banks opportunity came along at a good time for the team because David Carr in 2003 was coming off of a very painful rookie year and he showed (and still shows) signs of being jittery and nervous. Banks was a calming influence during a bad season where we had a ton of injuries. It was veteran leadership and sometimes a less talented veteran can accomplish more than a more talented but less experienced QB.

It's not in Banks numbers, it's in the way the team held their composure while he was in there and in the way the team (read: offense) often came apart (and still comes apart) at the worst times when Carr was in there.

GetItHowULive
11-30-2005, 08:14 PM
Well we aren't going to be drafting him so this shouldn't even be a discussion. John Clayton tonight said on Sportscenter that Bob McNair has said that he is planning on exercising the $8 million option on Carr because there isn't a quarterback in the draft that has the passing and running abilities that David has. Clayton also said that Capers will most likely be fired for not utilizing David's skills.

I think they are going to sign Kubiak because he has experience using strong armed mobile quarterbacks and has had a lot of success with them.

Can somebody please tell Carr to reveal these unreplaceable "passing and running abilities" that he has. He sucks. Vince needs to be drafted ASAP-along with a new coach-along with some other isht too....The Texans need a major makeover. Stop stickin to the trash we have now and maybe we can actually do something we have had a problem doing since we established...WIN!!!

YoungTexanFan
11-30-2005, 08:38 PM
Can somebody please tell Carr to reveal these unreplaceable "passing and running abilities" that he has. He sucks. Vince needs to be drafted ASAP-along with a new coach-along with some other isht too....The Texans need a major makeover. Stop stickin to the trash we have now and maybe we can actually do something we have had a problem doing since we established...WIN!!!

i dont even know where to start with your post, but good luck in life and i pray you are sucessful with blind love and scapegoat tactics. I also pray that you dont become the scape goat for something you have very little control over.

Fiddy
11-30-2005, 08:44 PM
Suffice it to say, I know. A source very close to the team, and I am not going to say anything else about it. Any other smart *** questions? Yeah I got a couple questions but I'll refrain from asking them because someone seems a little touchy. I didnt even mean it as a smart *** comment. It was an actual question.
In the end, despite the gaping holes in your logic, we will see if Vince Young can parley his college success into a successful NFL career. Truth be told, I think he will do well for himself. No BS. He is a standout athlete who, after taking a few years of lumps and improving his unwieldy arm, will I hope have the good fortune to play for a good coach and in a good system, where, like Randall Cunningham before him, he will have the opportunity to flourish. Assuming that and his remaining free of injury, I think he will do well. Gaping holes in my logic??? Please explain. You're the one that thinks Carr is a proven QB. Carr has only proved that he can take hits in 4 years. He has a very low football IQ, the reason why the 3-step drops were taken out. He can't excecute a 3-step drop. A 3-step drop is a necessity for a NFL QB and he can't do.
In the end, Carr is still the Texans QB, he will continue to be so for the forseeable future, and when McNair gets done with his spring cleaning, we all pray to God that he will have installed a new and improved coach and staff, the caliber of which that will take us to the heights we are capable of reaching. With David Carr at the helm. Indy is dominant and Jacksonville is knocking at the door, and I firmly believe that, soon, we will be a legitimate threat to them both. Foreseeable future??? I dont see us competing with Indy and Jax for another 3 years. That's the year I turn 21 and am able to buy beer by myself.
Incidentally, I have met and briefly talked personally with Carr. Maybe this makes me biased, or maybe this only reinforces my belief that he is a fiery competitor, an athlete, a good QB, and the right man for the job. I've never said Carr wasnt an athlete or competitor.

And this question is to everyone because jerek doesnt want to waste his time with it: What young unproven QB could have the type of game Carr had against KC and not get benched??? I know not Harrington, Orton or Simms. Palmer could because he is an MVP candidate. Can't think of anyone else. Alex Smith would get benched. Can't think of one.

YoungTexanFan
11-30-2005, 08:50 PM
And this question is to everyone because jerek doesnt want to waste his time with it: What young unproven QB could have the type of game Carr had against KC and not get benched??? I know not Harrington, Orton or Simms. Palmer could because he is an MVP candidate. Can't think of anyone else. Alex Smith would get benched. Can't think of one.

leftwich, eli, vick, rothlisburger...just to start with.

Fiddy
11-30-2005, 08:53 PM
leftwich, eli, vick, rothlisburger...just to start with. Vick doesnt get benched, he is a proven superstar and when he is on the field he wins. I've stated this earlier in the thread.

Leftwich, maybe.

Big Ben, no. He has only lost 3 regular season games.

Big Ben and Vick are superstars. Leftwich may have been benched...not sure.

GetItHowULive
11-30-2005, 08:54 PM
i dont even know where to start with your post, but good luck in life and i pray you are sucessful with blind love and scapegoat tactics. I also pray that you dont become the scape goat for something you have very little control over.

What are you even talkin about? I mean really...

blind love? scapegoat tactics? please spare me...

what does me and my good luck in life have to do with our piss-poor team...i know that I am not the only Houstonian that watches and agrees with my 1st comment...the truth hurts...i know

please reply with something worth reading.

YoungTexanFan
11-30-2005, 09:02 PM
What are you even talkin about? I mean really...

blind love? scapegoat tactics? please spare me...

what does me and my good luck in life have to do with our piss-poor team...i know that I am not the only Houstonian that watches and agrees with my 1st comment...the truth hurts...i know

please reply with something worth reading.


you were only placing the blame on carr who has withstood more than most men could take, he has shown his potential when given the time, he has shown he is willing to make the play himself while giving up his body.

i just find it odd that you only place the blame on him, that is called making him a scapegoat. the truth hurts. I was saying that i hope you dont become a scapegoat in your life like carr has. I was simply wishing you some mere amount of sucess. take it with a grain of salt, but take it son.

edo783
11-30-2005, 10:19 PM
Good post and you are correct, Vince will not be a Texan unless something MAJOR happens like Carr having a career injury or something.

Fiddy
11-30-2005, 11:14 PM
Second, Vince Young will be successful in the NFL, but he doesn't need to be successful for our team. Had he been starting for us this year instead of Carr, all other things being equal, he would have floundered similarly, if not ended up far worse off. He is not Mike Vick, other than he is fast and plays quarterback. Quit comparing the two as if he is Mike Vick II. The only way I compared the two was winning. I didnt compare arm strength or speed. VY is VY, Mike Vick is Mike Vick.

Fourth, this team has plenty of positions to be upgraded, most notably O-line, D-line, ILB, and maybe a safety or two for good measure. If we do land the first pick, it makes no sense drafting any of the above with it. Work a legitimate trade that will position us in free agency or give us another pick to address one of our many other needs. The O-line has been pretty damn good lately because the coaching staff finally figured out Pitts belongs at LT.

Finally, and I have no idea why, Fiddy has challenged me to answer the question, "What young unproven QB could have the type of game Carr had against KC and not get benched?" This of course assumes that "unproven" is not completely a matter of opinion and could be defined neatly as or within the context of a statistical category, since Fiddy heavily utilizes statistics unless they do not conveniently prove his point. Further, he assumes his argument is remotely relevant, and even if my answer were, "there is no one else," I fail to see how that is relevant to anything we have discussed. Nonetheless, and because "unproven" is a matter of opinion, I will offer mine, and name the following QBs, of a few:

Byron Leftwich
Eli Manning
Carson Palmer
Drew Brees
Aaron Brooks

Virtually all other starters in the league are veterans, and thus excluded under Fiddy's "young" clause.

Don't try to tell me that these guys are "proven." A winning record is not "proven." Unless of course, like your assertion for Vince Young, it is based on opinion we don't share. My point of this question is to show you that the coaching staff, as much as you hate them, has kept Carr's public image intact. If Carr would have had that game anywhere else, he would have been on the bench for the rest of the game. Detriot sent a message to Harrington: Improve or you sit. They also ruined his image. That message was never sent to Carr.

Do you know that Carson Palmer is a legit MVP candidate, although Manning will win it again, and Brees is a Pro-Bowler??? Brooks would probably find the bench. Coughlin wouldn't put up with Eli if he had a horrendus game. Like I said, not sure about Leftwich. So according to you, a MVP candidate and a Pro-Bowler would find the bench if they suck it up, but for some reason that never has happened to Carr who has had his fair share of stinkers.

Hopefully the new coaching staff will not baby the QB just to keep his image intact.


And back to your statement that I only use stats that help me.

Post 1 - No stats:
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=213936&postcount=13

Post 2 - 1 stat: Winning percentage for Vick.
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214140&postcount=22

Post 3 - 2 stats: Carr's sr. year college schedule, SOS between VY and ML, even said stats dont make players
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214170&postcount=27

Post 4 - 0 stats
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214187&postcount=30

Post 5 - 1 stat if you wanna count the drive summary for the OT drive
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214210&postcount=32

Post 6 - 2 stats: VY completion percentage and if you wanna throw out the Chris Simms fact that I just threw out there to show Carr has a lot to do
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214240&postcount=36

Post 7 - No stats
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214243&postcount=38

Post 8 - 1 stat I guess - The winning stat for Banks maybe a second if you wanna count Carr throwing many INTs
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214259&postcount=42

Post 9 - No stats
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214265&postcount=43

Post 10 - You be the judge: Carr's fumble, the INT I mentioned, points that the Bengals had, points that Texans had, 158 passing yards and 1 TD that'd I'd be fine with. I see that as 0 but maybe you see it differently.
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214259&postcount=42

Post 11 - 0 stats: "small handful of games" for Banks so maybe 1 stat
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214296&postcount=49

Post 12 - 0 stats: You can count the INT thing again, I guess maybe the "forseeable future" being 3 years for me
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214357&postcount=55

Post 13 - 0 stats
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214364&postcount=57


So where did I use stats "heavily???" I don't see it.

swtbound07
11-30-2005, 11:28 PM
i dont want to lodge for/against vince young, cause frankly the only thing i care about is the o-line, but i do want to address one point made earlier in this thread, which was that they would take a chance on vince young because he was a proven winner in college, and his 18 game win streak and the like.

A young fellow by the name of Ken Dorsey went something like 35-2 as a starter in college, won a national championship, and ended up going to the 49ers as a 7th round draft pick....anybody want that "proven winner" quarterbacking your team?

kbourda
11-30-2005, 11:32 PM
I will say this. Eventhough I agree with Fiddy with the drafting of Young, next year there should be an open competition for the starting QB spot reguardless. Hey, Carr has had his chance. I say you trade Carr and get what you can for him.

Fiddy
11-30-2005, 11:32 PM
A young fellow by the name of Ken Dorsey went something like 35-2 as a starter in college, won a national championship, and ended up going to the 49ers as a 7th round draft pick....anybody want that "proven winner" quarterbacking your team? The difference is Dorsey was throwing to AJ, S. Moss, Shockey, Reggie Wayne, had Willis McGahee and Clinton Portis in the backfield. Young is doing his stuff with Sweed and Pittman as his go to WRs. Which supporting cast would you take, the NFL Pro Bowl team or the Good College Supporting cast?

kbourda
11-30-2005, 11:36 PM
i dont want to lodge for/against vince young, cause frankly the only thing i care about is the o-line, but i do want to address one point made earlier in this thread, which was that they would take a chance on vince young because he was a proven winner in college, and his 18 game win streak and the like.

A young fellow by the name of Ken Dorsey went something like 35-2 as a starter in college, won a national championship, and ended up going to the 49ers as a 7th round draft pick....anybody want that "proven winner" quarterbacking your team?

Ask yourself or anyone looking at this thread at this time. Do you feel those Miami teams would have been less successful with Brock Berlin as the QB? And also do you think the Texas teams can be just as successful with Matt Norgden as the QB?

kbourda
11-30-2005, 11:38 PM
The difference is Dorsey was throwing to AJ, S. Moss, Shockey, Reggie Wayne, had Willis McGahee and Clinton Portis in the backfield. Young is doing his stuff with Sweed and Pittman as his go to WRs. Which supporting cast would you take, the NFL Pro Bowl team or the Good College Supporting cast?
Every single person you named from that team is in the NFL. WOW!

kbourda
11-30-2005, 11:39 PM
The difference is Dorsey was throwing to AJ, S. Moss, Shockey, Reggie Wayne, had Willis McGahee and Clinton Portis in the backfield. Young is doing his stuff with Sweed and Pittman as his go to WRs. Which supporting cast would you take, the NFL Pro Bowl team or the Good College Supporting cast?


And don't forget about KII, as well

Fiddy
11-30-2005, 11:44 PM
And don't forget about KII, as well He may have had Bubba and Edge for a year too...not sure though.

And not only are these guys on NFL rosters, they all start and most have been to Pro Bowls...

kbourda
11-30-2005, 11:47 PM
He may have had Bubba and Edge for a year too...not sure though.

And not only are these guys on NFL rosters, they all start and most have been to Pro Bowls...

He did.

MorKnolle
11-30-2005, 11:51 PM
I will say this. Eventhough I agree with Fiddy with the drafting of Young, next year there should be an open competition for the starting QB spot reguardless. Hey, Carr has had his chance. I say you trade Carr and get what you can for him.

How is trading Carr going to give a good competition at QB next year other than eliminating our one good QB so we have two equal, much worse QBs to duke it out?

kbourda
11-30-2005, 11:55 PM
How is trading Carr going to give a good competition at QB next year other than eliminating our one good QB so we have two equal, much worse QBs to duke it out?
First of all, who is our good QB?

tulexan
11-30-2005, 11:56 PM
Jason White's college record was comparable to Vince Young's and he didn't have a NFL filled roster. College statistics mean nothing. That is why we have the combine. Vince Young has as much of a chance of being our next quarterback as AJ Hawk does. Zero. We have a quarterback with Carr. We just need to protect him and surround him with some more playmakers. I'd love to see us have the chance to use a formation that doesn't involve max protection and gives us the chance to use more than 2 receivers.

kbourda
12-01-2005, 12:15 AM
Jason White's college record was comparable to Vince Young's and he didn't have a NFL filled roster. College statistics mean nothing. That is why we have the combine. Vince Young has as much of a chance of being our next quarterback as AJ Hawk does. Zero. We have a quarterback with Carr. We just need to protect him and surround him with some more playmakers. I'd love to see us have the chance to use a formation that doesn't involve max protection and gives us the chance to use more than 2 receivers.

I don't know. I just don't see the progression of Carr's game. I was his biggest apoligist for the longest time (as I was Yao Ming's) just I can't justify it anymore. Every team in the NFL does not get the same protection as Manning does, so what's their excuse? Truth is, our o-line sucks (be it players or coaching, i'm thinking the latter) but just don't tell me that we are the only team with a wack o-line. And I can remember back as far as last year a team like the Giants had a terrible o-line. As of right now, they are 9th in total yards in the NFL. Last year we had more yards per game than the Giants who were 6th from last. Now in 2005 we're 2nd to last in the NFL. So is it fair to say the players from the Giants are smarter, better, stronger? If so, how did they get that way in one year? For that matter, how did we get the way that we are in one year?

cadahnic
12-01-2005, 06:50 AM
First off many QBs have much worse games than Carr and do not get benched. See Brady or Eli's 4 int games. Take a look at Drew Brees' game vs Dallas. It is the way the NFL is. Sometimes a qb is going to have a bad game. Has Carr shown promise yes. Is he anywere near what we expect out of him no. Is that Carr or is the playcalling/system. Likely the latter of the two. But possibly a little of both. I like Carr and when he gets aggressive playcalling he has been lights out for us. VY a good college QB not great, and will be a good NFL pro. Doubt he will end up a Texan though.

tulexan
12-01-2005, 08:24 AM
Well the Giants have two very good receivers in Burress and Toomer. They have one of the best running backs in the league in Barber, and they have one of the best tight ends in the league in Shockey. Add their good line in there and they have the recipe for success. We on the other hand have one good receiver in Johnson, a good but not great running back in Davis who has been hurt, and no tight end. We also do not have an offensive line that can consistently give our quarterback time to throw or that allows us to stretch the field. Like someone said earlier, when the other team can rush 4 and allow everyone else to play in coverage while we can only send 2 receivers because we are in max protection, you aren't going to have many open players.

Hervoyel
12-01-2005, 10:52 AM
Add their good line in there and they have the recipe for success...

Remember not too long ago when the Giants were playing on MNF and all they talked about was the patchwork line they had of guys they picked up down at the labor pool and the biggest kids they could get from Our Lady of the Divine Miracle Orphanage. I think that was Fassell's last year there but I'm not sure. Anyway now it's at the most two seasons later and you are (correctly) discussing their "good" line.

That kind of thing is why I get so frustrated over the Texans. In the time they've taken to build (badly) other teams have been pretty good, crashed, completely rebuilt, and are contending for playoff spots. Meanwhile we're still struggling with the same issues we had in year one.

Frills
12-01-2005, 10:54 AM
V Y isn't an NFL QB.

He's just a another version of Kordell Stewart. but lacking arm strength and accuracy.

Quite a few OU QB's looked great in college and didn't amount to jack in the NFL, they were good in college due to the system they ran. Last year Vince was in a more pro style offense, and he looked like crapola.

He will be turned into a WR.

Fiddy
12-01-2005, 12:56 PM
I will not address any of the other points because we are both repeating ourselves ad nauseum now, saying the same things over and over again in different words. However:

Out of all of the assumptions that you and I have used in our debate (namely, my support of the theory that Carr has struggled because of coaching, system, and personnel, and you, that Vince is the Answer because he wins in college and is a great athlete) ... this one absolutely takes the cake. You are now contending that, if I am reading this right, the coaching staff has not benched Carr because their agenda is "protecting" Carr's image?

Wtf?! Talk about conspiracy theories! As inept as our coaching staff is, they will always work to do what, in their minds, is best for the team and will produce W's. That you would even suggest they leave Carr on the field because they are worried about his "image," to the exclusion of winning, has automatically disqualified the legitimacy of your arguments, past, present, and future. There main agenda is not to protect Carr's image but that is what they have done. Carr did not give us a chance to win in the KC game, he threw away the game with 30 seconds left in the 1st half. Why in the fourth quarter in a blowout do you not bring in Banks or Ragone and take out the expensive QB??? Why do you keep Carr in??? There is no point except for the fact that if Ragone or Banks does marginally well in mop-up duty, now on top of a pitiful season, Capers and Casserly now have a QB controversey on their hands. No other 4th year QB that struggles as much as Carr in recent history has been able to stay on the field when he sucks it up.

And an agenda for the business side of the team is to keep Carr's image intact for sponsors. How would all those company sponsers who use and pay Carr for his face on their products feel when the guy on their payroll is now part of a QB controversy???

And funny how you have just condmened all future arguments from me when you said I used stats "heavily" when it favors me but as I researched my posts for you, I rarely used any stats. A false accusation is worse than anything you can say to refute my points and defend Carr.

Vinny
12-01-2005, 01:41 PM
I have told you that not only do I feel that Vince Young lacks the intangibles that I look for in an NFL QB, but much more importantly, that Carr possesses themYou lost me here totally....Vince Young has superstar level intangibles and Carr has shown to have none so far.

Also, its incredibly weak to dog the posters due to age. Find something else....that shows me you are grasping.

Fiddy
12-01-2005, 01:50 PM
Let me rephrase.

You fawn over Vince Young because of his personal numbers and the fact that he has a lot of Ws playing for a college team. Numbers which, as has been repeatedly stated and shown, are in no way promised to translate to the NFL. I don't fawn over Young's stats. His stats arent that great, the way he effects a game is.

You assert that Carr is not the right QB for the Texans on the basis of his own arguable lack of statistical production, and because of his lack of team Ws. You say that we were the most productive under Banks, but in this case you only isolated one statistic - the W - from two games and ignored the entirety of every other component that goes into that W. I don't care about if Carr gets 350 yards passing or his career game average of 180. Give me the win. (I better watch it though, I just heavily used stats) And I have stated what happened in those other games. Infatrycak brought up the defensive game the defense had in those games, I brought the defensive game they had in the Bengals game. Only difference is Banks was QB in one of those, Carr was in the other.

I have told you that not only do I feel that Vince Young lacks the intangibles that I look for in an NFL QB, but much more importantly, that Carr possesses them, and his performance thus far does not indicate his potential or future worth to the franchise, once we actually bring in a competent cast and crew for him to work with. Lack of intaglibles for VY??? Now I've heard it all. One of VY's greatest attributes his how he controls the huddles, keeps the team calm, rallys players behind him, carries his team. He has the respect of everyone on that team. VY lack of intangibles??? Sure...

I do not condone his play against KC: I watched the game too, and he didn't step up. Yes, he has had some bad performances, just like every HOFer has at some point in their careers. The truth is that his negative is still far outweighed by his upside and the ability that he has demonstrated. I dont know of a HOFer that had shown less growth in his first 4 years than Carr. Usually the QB is suppose to grow in 4 years, Carr still makes rookie mistakes, like locking onto WRs, not stepping up in the pocket, breaking the pocket when he doesnt have to.

You ask, why not bring in Banks and Ragone? I ask, why bother? They will not win the game either, and scoring in garbage time doesn't prove anything toward establishing their plausibility as a starter. If this guy is the franchise, the coaching staff should have no problem sitting him at the end of a blowout so he doesnt get injured. If it was Peyton Manning who struggled, they have no problem sitting him because everyone knows what he can do and nothing the backup can do can unseat him.

And by the way, USC is still going to pound the life out of UT this year, and prove you for the circus of hype you really are. They could. Anything could happen that game. That's why they play.

Porky
12-01-2005, 02:07 PM
In this 15 round heavyweight debate, by an easy Knockout, the Amazing Fiddy is the new world Champion. :yahoo:

Coach C.
12-01-2005, 02:12 PM
Well it was not a knockout, it was really a split decision and mine goes for Jerek. The truth is that VY has done the same things that many other athletic QBs have done and he has done it with a great team around him. I have watched Omar Jacobs for the last 4 years run around and be one of the best QBs in college football. Is Omar Jacobs a better QB than Vince? of Course he is. Is his hype as much as Vince? Hell no. The fact that people blindly follow Vince and ignore his shortcomings reminds me of some Carr supporters who do the same thing and are blasted constantly on this board. Bottomline is this. Fiddy follows Vince based upon his opinion that he can change the game like no QB he may have seen before and Jerek says Vince is not the die hard QB that can run for 50yds and pass for 300 that we may need. Sounds split to me.

stevo3883
12-01-2005, 03:08 PM
I hope that the other four pages of my statements are the "something else" you are looking for. As well, take a moment to read my qualifying statement regarding the intangibles: I said, I feel. Not, I know, he is, or he has, but I feel that he has. This is because intangibles are not statistically provable (sp?) and are in almost every sense a matter of perception. It simply depends on who is doing the perceiving, and as I am sure you can agree, it is one versus another. I feel that DC has not been given a fair shake or evaluation and that VY is being touted as the entirety of the answer when it is just not so. The end.



this is a lot like the last anti vince topic you posted. You said Vince has little to no upside. now you say he doesnt have the intangibles "you" look for in a NFL qb.

when i think of intangibles, i think of skills that just cant be taught, you either have them or you dont.

when I think about what i want from a qb, i think of these:
poise
confidence
ability under pressure
leadership (both verbally and by example)
a desire to always be better


when looking at upside, you look at a few things.
1. Does their decision making have much room for improvement?
2. Can they improve on their accuracy on all routes?

the reason Young would have more upside than a guy like Leinart, is that you know Leinart is near the top of his game, he is a very polished pocket passer, and his accuracy doesnt have much room for improvement. He isnt prone to many mistakes, so what you see now is most likely what you're going to get. His arm isnt very strong, so he relies on his great accuracy.

Vince is still raw, but has progressed amazingly the past year, from 12td 11int last year to 24td 8int this year, with a higher completiong %. now if he can get these numbers as a still raw passer, imagine what he would do with refined passing skills.... and thats just passing, not mentioning his amazing running ability.

Vince WILL be able to run on NFL defenses, he is the size of a linebacker but faster than any of them and has just amazing ability to break contain and tackles.

bigcarlos
12-01-2005, 08:20 PM
Can somebody please tell Carr to reveal these unreplaceable "passing and running abilities" that he has. He sucks. Vince needs to be drafted ASAP-along with a new coach-along with some other isht too....The Texans need a major makeover. Stop stickin to the trash we have now and maybe we can actually do something we have had a problem doing since we established...WIN!!!
Hell Yeah:texflag:

BigBull17
12-02-2005, 12:00 PM
I didnt say the play was called for a long ball, I said throw it up in the air near a WR. You're gonna get sacked, give your WR a chance in OT especially since your defense is sucking air. If you get the INT, so what??? It's would be like a punt. Maybe you get a catch or an interference, but give your guys a chance...

Then you would have bitched about him being careless and questioned his heart ect, ect. In the NFL you never just "throw it up" and hope your guy makes the play. That leads to pick six.

Fiddy
12-02-2005, 03:20 PM
Then you would have bitched about him being careless and questioned his heart ect, ect. In the NFL you never just "throw it up" and hope your guy makes the play. That leads to pick six. Gunning it in there leads to a pick six, throwing a high lob pass and hoping for a pass interference or maybe even a catch would have been the right thing to do. You really wont see a high lob pass taken back because everyone on the field can see it and has time to react. There are usually 2 people fighting for it so the guy that doesnt come up with it will make the tackle most of time. And we were at the 45 or something like that right??? An INT could be like a punt to the 20.

bigcarlos
12-02-2005, 07:49 PM
In this 15 round heavyweight debate, by an easy Knockout, the Amazing Fiddy is the new world Champion. :yahoo:
Congrats Fiddy:texflag:

tulexan
12-02-2005, 07:58 PM
Gunning it in there leads to a pick six, throwing a high lob pass and hoping for a pass interference or maybe even a catch would have been the right thing to do. You really wont see a high lob pass taken back because everyone on the field can see it and has time to react. There are usually 2 people fighting for it so the guy that doesnt come up with it will make the tackle most of time. And we were at the 45 or something like that right??? An INT could be like a punt to the 20.


Yeah there MIGHT have been a receiver and a corner back fighting for it. The corner back COULD have been tackled around the 20 making it basically a punt. But the guy also COULD have intercepted it and returned it for a touchdown. Then we would be hearing how David Carr is garbage and threw a pick six to lose the game. Face it, some of you will never like David Carr and will find ways to criticize him no matter what. So what really happened? He took the sack, they punted the ball, it was a touchback (to the 20 just like where you wanted David Carr to throw the ball so that it was either a catch or an interception), then Fitzpatrick threw a screen pass that went about 60 yards. I didn't see David Carr miss a few tackles and allow that receiver to score and win the game.

Toro
12-05-2005, 11:42 AM
I dont think he is a lock for a top 10 pick. Here are the top 10 teams at this moment. I could see him going in the top 20.

If Young goes pro, unless he completely tanks at the Combine, he'll be a Top 10 pick and the second QB taken. I'm almost certain of that.

New York Jets - Pennington. They have so much money invested.

True, but keep in mind, Pennington never had a strong arm to begin with, and now that he's had to get it surgically repaired, he's going to be at even more of a disadvantage when throwing the long ball. I think the Jets go elsewhere with their pick (HB?) but it wouldn't stun me to see them pick a QB.

5 Tennessee - Billy Volek.

I'd take Young over Volek, and I'm pretty sure the Titans would too. Keep in mind, McNair was Young's mentor as he went in to college, so if Steve has any say as to who his heir apparent is, this could be the guy they pick.

6 Arizona - Should jump up and take Matt Lienart.

That's being discussed in the Desert. I could see them moving up to take Leinart or staying pat to take Young.

8 Baltimore - Possible QB pick.
9 Miami - Possible QB pick.


Believe me, there's no way in HELL Baltimore or Miami bypass Young if he falls to them.

Also, Jay Cutler is looking great this year. He might end up being the 2nd QB taken.

IMHO Cutler is this year's Jason Campbell. He'll rise up in to the lower half of the first round with a good Combine.