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Kaiser Toro
11-28-2005, 09:36 PM
Everyone says that we cannot get Carr 3 seconds in the pocket, but I am watching Manning and he sure does not hold the ball that long. Granted we do not have Harrison and Wayne, but what gives? Is it purely scheme or the QB?

Reddevil63
11-28-2005, 09:39 PM
I think its completely unfair to compair anybody to Peyton Manning, he will go down as one of the all time greats.

Kaiser Toro
11-28-2005, 09:41 PM
I am not comparing Carr with Manning.

thegr8fan
11-28-2005, 09:44 PM
you'll also notice Manning reading the defense PRIOR to the snap. He is even telling his own O-line who is the rusher and who is the coverage men.

Carr couldn't figure out a defense if they came with little flashing signs on the front of the helmets saying 'Coverage' or 'Rusher'. THAT is the biggest reason Manning doesn't need 3 seconds and Carr needs 6-7 seconds to complete a pass, IMHO.

phan1
11-28-2005, 10:00 PM
you'll also notice Manning reading the defense PRIOR to the snap. He is even telling his own O-line who is the rusher and who is the coverage men.

Carr couldn't figure out a defense if they came with little flashing signs on the front of the helmets saying 'Coverage' or 'Rusher'. THAT is the biggest reason Manning doesn't need 3 seconds and Carr needs 6-7 seconds to complete a pass, IMHO.

There's also the fact that he calls his own plays, so he can take advantage of a mismatch pretty much anytime he's able to recognize it.

tsip
11-28-2005, 10:14 PM
I look forward to the day when all the excuses for Carr's play turn into results-does everyone else work in a 'perfect' environment?

thegr8fan
11-28-2005, 10:28 PM
so he can take advantage of a mismatch pretty much anytime he's able to recognize it. uhhh, so what your saying is in order for Payton take advantage of a mis-match, or even call his own plays, is due to him reading a Defense, correct? Which as was pointed out by me is yet another reason Carr can NOT call his own plays, cause he can NOT read a defense. I think you just said the same thing as me, but in a different manner. And pointed out how our starting QB is really at fault and HOW this affects our offensive play-calling.

zeplin
11-28-2005, 10:31 PM
I thought Carr played pretty good on Sunday. He is not Manning by any stretch of the imagination. He is by his own admission only able to audible to a run, and then only to the opposite side. That in itself is pathetic. Our coaching staff is responsable for that not Carr. How do you play Quarterback in the NFL in your 4th year and not be allowed to change the play at the line. How will we ever know whether Carr has it or not.
Look Im not taking sides but it makes me wonder!1

thegr8fan
11-28-2005, 10:37 PM
honestly I don't know where the FAULT for this lies at, Carr or Coaching. Perhaps no one ever taught Carr to read a Defense. Perhaps he is simply incapable of reading one due to the NFL being pretty good at disguising it.

But no matter who's fault it is, it is still a bad thing for Carr to not be able to do this in his fourth year.

infantrycak
11-28-2005, 10:43 PM
The 3 seconds people refer to is an average. Manning does a very good job of getting many plays of in under 2 seconds like the Texans have been trying to do, BUT he also has plays where he sits back in the pocket for a long, long time--not so much against a great D like the Steelers (wow, the idea of game planning the opponent) but when he can or when needed. Watch crunch time for his OL as well--they step up and give him the time rather than folding. Manning and his OL are a good example of what is supposed to happen with both making the other look better--Manning making the OL's job easier on most plays by getting the ball out, the OL by stepping up and giving knitting time when needed for clutch highlight plays by Manning.

zeplin
11-28-2005, 10:54 PM
I agree by the 4th year you should be either able to play the position or sent down the road. One problem, we do not know for sure if Carr is capable or not, because the powers to be have not allowed it.
`Maybe they know something we don't " Carr really can't read a defense".
I think it is a offensive micro over managment issue. They don't trust someone else to screw it up for them.

Napa Auto Parts
11-28-2005, 10:59 PM
I thought Carr played pretty good on Sunday. He is not Manning by any stretch of the imagination. He is by his own admission only able to audible to a run, and then only to the opposite side. That in itself is pathetic. Our coaching staff is responsable for that not Carr. How do you play Quarterback in the NFL in your 4th year and not be allowed to change the play at the line. How will we ever know whether Carr has it or not.
Look Im not taking sides but it makes me wonder!1


For the millionth time this was brought up before Capers sad Carr is allowed to audible in to a run and steve mckinney said on the radio that there are pass play to audible too now how effective they are i dont know but he is allowed if he chooses not too that's Big Arm Dave's Choice.

SESupergenius
11-29-2005, 12:51 AM
Manning had many plays where he had tons of time. But have you noticed too that he "locks on" to his recievers. LOL It's too funny how people put soo much into this "locking on" bull when just about every QB does it. A huge part of Mannings offense is that all the players know their responsibilities, especially the offensive line. They also have something that we lack...the element of surprise. They come out in many different formations and run so many different routes, you don't see their WR's taking plays off. They have so many audibles that it keeps the defense on their heels and the Colts dictate what they are going to do, not just what the defense gives them.

yaboycm
11-29-2005, 01:15 AM
you'll also notice Manning reading the defense PRIOR to the snap. He is even telling his own O-line who is the rusher and who is the coverage men.

Carr couldn't figure out a defense if they came with little flashing signs on the front of the helmets saying 'Coverage' or 'Rusher'. THAT is the biggest reason Manning doesn't need 3 seconds and Carr needs 6-7 seconds to complete a pass, IMHO.
http://www.gilmoregroup.com/tggdifference/Board_Meeting_-_Clapping.jpg
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Hookem Horns
11-29-2005, 02:21 AM
Eli Manning doesn't even need 3 seconds. He looks better in his 2nd season than Carr ever has.

Corrosion
11-29-2005, 02:42 AM
I thought Carr played pretty good on Sunday. He is not Manning by any stretch of the imagination. He is by his own admission only able to audible to a run, and then only to the opposite side. That in itself is pathetic. Our coaching staff is responsable for that not Carr. How do you play Quarterback in the NFL in your 4th year and not be allowed to change the play at the line. How will we ever know whether Carr has it or not.
Look Im not taking sides but it makes me wonder!1


Very few NFL QB's call their own plays ... I cant think of another besides Pey-Me-A-Ton ....

Carr is limited by not only his O-line but his recievers and coaching staff as well . They have all but ruined him . They let him audible only to a few plays ...That you can tell just by watching the game ...

Someone tell me ..... What is the Main Audible play in the Texans repertoire.
Ill give ya a hint .... Its NOT a pass :ok:

HJam72
11-29-2005, 05:47 AM
The message I have entered is too short, so now it's not anymore. :rolleyes:

NFLforher
11-29-2005, 09:26 AM
Eli Manning doesn't even need 3 seconds. He looks better in his 2nd season than Carr ever has.

I don't recall Eli getting smashed into the ground like David has either.

eriadoc
11-29-2005, 09:55 AM
Manning and his receivers have worked on their timing down and have it down pat. Manning knows exactly where his receivers will be and when they'll be there. We see miscommunications here quite frequently, when receivers aren't where they're supposed to be and/or the QB throws to the wrong spot. Manning's line is a ton better than ours, but against Pittsburgh, you're going to face pressure all day, so yeah, they gameplanned for it.

chuckm
11-29-2005, 10:38 AM
we're back in our "Carr Sucks" mode ..... life is good .... it took me 5 seconds to type that ...

LBC_Justin
11-29-2005, 11:04 AM
uhhh, so what your saying is in order for Payton take advantage of a mis-match, or even call his own plays, is due to him reading a Defense, correct? Which as was pointed out by me is yet another reason Carr can NOT call his own plays, cause he can NOT read a defense. I think you just said the same thing as me, but in a different manner. And pointed out how our starting QB is really at fault and HOW this affects our offensive play-calling.Umm how many QB's in the NFL are entrusted with the power and ability to make play calling decisions to the level Peyton Manning is? how about none.

Peyton Manning is in a different situation. He has the best route runners in the NFL. He is probably the most talented passer, smartest QB, and the QB with the most control of his play calling. Oh and he has the threat of E. James to keep defenses guessing.

Even my dad who is a native of Pittsburgh and a big time Pittsburgh homer...
thinks Peyton Manning is (or will be by the time his career ends) the Best QB of all time. Considering my dad comes from the home of Jim Kelly, Joe Montana, Johnny Unitas, Dan Marino, and Joe Namath, that was quite a statement.



I totally agree with most of you guys, that Carr is running out of excuses.

thegr8fan
11-29-2005, 11:21 AM
I don't recall Eli getting smashed into the ground like David has either.-NFLforher I don't recall Eli running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage with the ball in his hands for a sack either. So there is two different examples, one from you and one from me, where Eli has already shown in his second year that he is a much more intelligent QB than David is in his Fourth season. :texflag:

thegr8fan
11-29-2005, 11:29 AM
LBC, you'll get no argument from me on your Dad's opinion. Greatest of all time, well the years will prove it, but there will always be those who have their favorites of 'greatest of all time'.

As for Mannings latitude with the offensive playcalling, it is very generous, but he has earned or deserves for it to be, IMHO. Take the other end of the spectrum though and tell me how many QB's are limited to the amount that Carr is in offensive playcalling............................. Now that you have thought of all the rookie QB's in the league, lets make a list of QB's with more than 2 years of experience that are limited to the ability to change a play at the LOS as Carr is. I can't name a single one. So I am asking myself if Carr is simply not able to read a Defense and change the play accordingly, or if the coach's are so micro-management designed that they won't allow it.

I honestly can't name a single play that I remember that Carr audibled at the LOS and it was a big time play. It usually is a loss of yardage or very minimal gain. Which makes me believe that Carr is simply clue-less on reading a defense. Which means he takes longer to make reads after the snap, needing more time to make a pass, and also accounts for some of the poor decisions he has made in the past. All just my opinion, but based on many games of watching Carr look totally clueless once the play started.

chuckm
11-29-2005, 11:30 AM
I don't recall Eli running out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage with the ball in his hands for a sack either. So there is two different examples, one from you and one from me, where Eli has already shown in his second year that he is a much more intelligent QB than David is in his Fourth season. :texflag:


not the best example of Carr's lack of football IQ out there ... you could've said

1) runs out of bounds late in Rams game and stops the clock instead of sliding down in bounds
2) doesn't milk all possible time off play clock before running plays late in Rams game
3) checks down a bit too quick on routes
4) doesn't look off safeties very well
5) and on ....

running out of bounds a yard behind the line for a sack is a 1 yard loss and as I see it is the result of attempting to salvage a play .... but that's me ...

thegr8fan
11-29-2005, 11:36 AM
my list of Carr's ineptitude is quite long chuckm.

But even Eli realizes that throwing the ball away instead of taking a 1 yd loss is better.

Salvaging a play? Perhaps, but it still is a loss of yard when all you gotta do is throw it out of bounds 2 yards in front of your face and you DON'T lose a yard in doing so. You also don't get yet another sack number added to your already unbelievable count.

chuckm
11-29-2005, 11:44 AM
Salvaging a play? Perhaps, but it still is a loss of yard when all you gotta do is throw it out of bounds 2 yards in front of your face and you DON'T lose a yard in doing so. You also don't get yet another sack number added to your already unbelievable count.


his mobility has caused a few cheap sacks no doubt but it evens out ...

LBC_Justin
11-29-2005, 04:45 PM
LBC, you'll get no argument from me on your Dad's opinion. Greatest of all time, well the years will prove it, but there will always be those who have their favorites of 'greatest of all time'.

As for Mannings latitude with the offensive playcalling, it is very generous, but he has earned or deserves for it to be, IMHO. Take the other end of the spectrum though and tell me how many QB's are limited to the amount that Carr is in offensive playcalling............................. Now that you have thought of all the rookie QB's in the league, lets make a list of QB's with more than 2 years of experience that are limited to the ability to change a play at the LOS as Carr is. I can't name a single one. So I am asking myself if Carr is simply not able to read a Defense and change the play accordingly, or if the coach's are so micro-management designed that they won't allow it.

I honestly can't name a single play that I remember that Carr audibled at the LOS and it was a big time play. It usually is a loss of yardage or very minimal gain. Which makes me believe that Carr is simply clue-less on reading a defense. Which means he takes longer to make reads after the snap, needing more time to make a pass, and also accounts for some of the poor decisions he has made in the past. All just my opinion, but based on many games of watching Carr look totally clueless once the play started.
I don't know what to think about Carr. Sometimes I like the guy sometimes I want him cut.

I am going to guess he is being extremely micro managed. I am basing this solely on the personality of Capers. He writes everything in that note book, plays very conservative and he is an extreme planner (I heard on the NFL channel he plans his preseason workouts and practices years in advance.). But who knows. Carr seemed pretty sharp at Fresno State. Also you don't become a #1 overall pick unless you score very high on all of those tests they give. For the QB position a lot of those are mental not physical exams.

Also during this offseason a guy at ESPN wrote an article about the QB's in the NFL and he went over every play that every QB made in 2004 and counted their mistakes and weighted their mistakes based on the certain factors. Carr was #3 on that list for have the fewest mistakes. This article surprised me. He certainly isn't perfect but I feel (this is just my gut feeling, i have no facts to back this up) that the guy deserves another chance with a new coaching staff. If they evaluate him and feel he lacks whatever skill it takes to take our team to the playoffs and they decide to cut him, I will support their decision.

I think we all agree that no one is satisfied with the performace of our QB and to go to the next level we will need better play at that postion, regardless of who is taking the snaps.

touttail
11-29-2005, 05:21 PM
Everyone says that we cannot get Carr 3 seconds in the pocket, but I am watching Manning and he sure does not hold the ball that long. Granted we do not have Harrison and Wayne, but what gives? Is it purely scheme or the QB?

You said it---Harrison and Wayne. They have two good WR's so you can't double or triple team just one of them. This would make them open more often. Also look who you have coming out of the backfield, The Edge, and Dallas Clark at TE. Talking about being loaded for bear!!!!!

All they have to do is double team AJ and we are covered. No one else to take the load off of AJ.(Why they continue with Bradford and Gaffney I don't know?) Penders doesn't know that a TE is eligible for a pass, just for blocking!

bobby 119C:brickwall

blockhead83
11-29-2005, 10:33 PM
David Carr is, within the realm of probability, never going to be a quarterback the caliber of Peyton Manning. He doesn't have that extra dimension that truely special players have, the gift of being able to single handedly defy the odds on a regular basis.

That said, David Carr's woes are not all his own doing. I see people saying that David Carr can't read defenses, that he always audibles to a "run left." Does anyone besides me remember Carr coming out last year and saying his only option of audibles is to change a run right to a run left, or a pass to another pass? That, to me, handcuffs him significantly. Couple that with the pathetic performance our offensive line has displayed the past few years and there should be no astonishment that Carr hasn't lit the world on fire. Imagine coming to the LOS, seeing 8 men in the box (most of whom appear prepared to blitz), and only having the option of being sacked with pass play Y or pass play X.

The offensive line has stepped up recently, especially last week. It wasn't only them that made the protection look good though, Carr was doing a better job of evading pressure. For the first time in a long time I saw him use his feet to make alot of plays, and sidestep out of blitzes instead of into them. Carr finally had average NFL protection, and he looked solid with it. We'd be foolish not to keep Carr at this point. In the right system, he can be a productive quarterback, he is NOT ruined, IMO. We need to acquire some better players for the OLine, a better scheme for the offense, and hopefully a few more supporting cast members to help him out, THEN judge him. Carr is still a young guy, with 1st round potential at his position, he can still be our guy; we just need to give him a little boost.

P.S. - Another thing, Carr doesn't exactly have as many opportunities as other QB's to get in a rhythm when our defense RARELY gives him the ball back without giving up 7 first. We don't exactly have a prolific offense, we need those extra opportunities to get the ball rolling and let our guys hit their stride. The defense played better against the Rams, and Carr was able to make the most of those extra opportunities.

Last thing, Domanick Davis was playing last game and he wasn't the primary target for Carr's passes for once. They threw to AJ early and often, and also distributed the ball to Bradford and Gaffney. That's a good sign as far as I'm concerned, we're too one-dimensional if we don't show the defense we can beat them more ways than one.