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View Full Version : Does Coleman or anyone know the game's rules???


GoodNews
11-28-2005, 03:18 AM
:tv:

The on-side kick was not a "bouncer." It DID NOT hit the ground before Coleman touched it.

A Fair Catch Anyone ??

Check the rules - Including kickoffs (http://football.calsci.com/TheRules10.html)

:texflag:

gtexan02
11-28-2005, 08:00 AM
He also made a mistake in diving for a INT and then trying to run it back on 4th and long. Even if he hadn't fumbled the ball away, the field positoin we would have had is worse than if he had just batted the ball straight into the ground. If he weren't even on the field at the time, that play would have been better and we would have won the game.

BigBull17
11-28-2005, 08:03 AM
Yeah he also missed the rule that you only get 4 downs...

Gmurrie
11-28-2005, 08:14 AM
Saw your post and couldn't help but go back and look at the replay on dvr. The kick bounced immediately after it was kicked and bounced a mile in the air.

I'm not saying Coleman shouldn't wear goat horns after his mistakes yesterday, but that kick did hit the ground...

Kaiser Toro
11-28-2005, 08:28 AM
Coleman makes an interception and then fumbles the ball, he should definetley be cooked for this. :rolleyes:

He is the last man standing after a very good onside kick that had gone past ten yards. I am sure all of you would have fielded the ball differently, perhaps a fair catch when one is not allowed? :rolleyes:

I watched the replay again of Holt's TD and it was not all Coleman's fault. Remember you had a CB in Bell that has barely played and was quite animated after the catch. That does not necessarily add up to a mistake by Coleman.

If you remember Coleman was the one who spoke up in the press about the D needing to be aggressive and they were in the first half.

Hate on him all you want, but at least I know we got a guy on a 1-10 team that is trying to make plays for this team on and off the field.

Malloy
11-28-2005, 08:40 AM
Hate on him all you want, but at least I know we got a guy on a 1-10 team that is trying to make plays for this team on and off the field.

That's true, had he returned that INT for a TD we would be having his babies right now... uhm... never mind, you get the point :)

TEXANS84
11-28-2005, 08:46 AM
After the touchdown that was given up against Jason Bell in the north endzone, Jason Bell was screaming at Marcus Coleman for not going coming over for help.

Looks like another blown assignment on Coleman's part.

Kaiser Toro
11-28-2005, 08:50 AM
After the touchdown that was given up against Jason Bell in the north endzone, Jason Bell was screaming at Marcus Coleman for not going coming over for help.

That is what I am saying. How many times have you seen a rook or someone who is not used to playing in a position get animated, since they were beat, to deflect the heat lamp that is on them. When I saw the replay I did not think Coleman was at total fault.

billtxus
11-28-2005, 11:28 AM
NO WAY Coleman should intercept the ball on 4th down. The odds of running it back for a TD are low, the odds of getting poorer field position are high. Plus the possibility of the fumble, which happened. The CORRECT play since I was in high school was to knock the ball down. He is supposed to be a professional, and supposed to know how to play his position. He should be released, and so should Capers so they can start evaluating people for next year.

Kaiser Toro
11-28-2005, 11:37 AM
NO WAY Coleman should intercept the ball on 4th down. The odds of running it back for a TD are low, the odds of getting poorer field position are high. Plus the possibility of the fumble, which happened. The CORRECT play since I was in high school was to knock the ball down. He is supposed to be a professional, and supposed to know how to play his position. He should be released, and so should Capers so they can start evaluating people for next year.

I have zero problem with your logic as long as we apply that standard to others on the team including the QB.

Speedy
11-28-2005, 12:12 PM
I watched the replay again of Holt's TD and it was not all Coleman's fault. Remember you had a CB in Bell that has barely played and was quite animated after the catch. That does not necessarily add up to a mistake by Coleman.Coleman was slow to react on that play and all day long for that matter. He should have been there, no question about it. Sorry, the dude cannot play the position and it shows on the field.

Hardcore Texan
11-28-2005, 12:46 PM
Coleman makes an interception and then fumbles the ball, he should definetley be cooked for this. :rolleyes:

He is the last man standing after a very good onside kick that had gone past ten yards. I am sure all of you would have fielded the ball differently, perhaps a fair catch when one is not allowed? :rolleyes:

I watched the replay again of Holt's TD and it was not all Coleman's fault. Remember you had a CB in Bell that has barely played and was quite animated after the catch. That does not necessarily add up to a mistake by Coleman.

If you remember Coleman was the one who spoke up in the press about the D needing to be aggressive and they were in the first half.

Hate on him all you want, but at least I know we got a guy on a 1-10 team that is trying to make plays for this team on and off the field.

I don't care. On the onside kick the ball hit him square in the chest. No excuse not to hang on to the ball.

uhcougar08
11-28-2005, 01:17 PM
Both safeties blew coverage all day. They are never suppose to allow a receiver past them in the coverages that were being run. If you look at all the touchdowns, the CB's were burn't like they were suppose to be because they were in zone coverage, and of course, Coleman and his buddy, Earl got burn't every play. if it wasn't for them playing like a junior high safety, we would have never been put in a position to recover an on side kick.

He was removed as a CB because he can't cover anyone, and now he cant even stay far enough in the backfield to break up a deep pass.

What a loser he is, and im dead serious!

mean mark8
11-28-2005, 02:19 PM
Coleman had 7 interceptions as the right corner back, his last season at the position, in 2003. We don't have a healthy first-string caliber RCB at this point. He doesn't appear to be having a good year at FS, why hasn't he been moved back to the position he started at since 1999? Our RCB is almost always on the opponent's number one receiver, so why do we have guys like our practice squad rookie Chris McKenzie covering them when we have a former starting corner back playing out of position? I don't think he's lost too many steps in two years. If you think he's too slow, have you seen how Ty Law makes up for speed with veteran craftiness? I don't think you bench him, or cut him, play him back where he is more comfortable and makes plays.

As for the fair catch, I don't have Tivo to watch it in slow motion, but in the several replays on Channel 13 last night, it looked to me like it was a straight lob kick that should have been fair caught. Even if it had hit the ground, if he had made the fair catch sign, who knows if it would have stopped the hit that caused the fumble or at least created controversy for the refs.

On Tivo, can you see who lined up where for that kick? Where were Derick Armstrong (best hands), Andre Johnson (big guy with good hands), Jabbar Gaffney, Domanick Davis, Vernand Morency, Jonathan Wells, Tony Hollings, Rivers, and other OFFENSIVE players who are used to catching a ball and getting hit? Who failed to block the guys who came in clean to clock Coleman? It just looked like about the poorest execution of fielding an on-side kick I've ever seen.

TEXANS84
11-28-2005, 02:44 PM
for the refs.

On Tivo, can you see who lined up where for that kick? Where were Derick Armstrong (best hands), Andre Johnson (big guy with good hands), Jabbar Gaffney, Domanick Davis, Vernand Morency, Jonathan Wells, Tony Hollings, Rivers, and other OFFENSIVE players who are used to catching a ball and getting hit? Who failed to block the guys who came in clean to clock Coleman? It just looked like about the poorest execution of fielding an on-side kick I've ever seen.

Great observation.

Being at the game, I was yelling for them to call timeout to get some hands out there on the field. Yet they left the same ST unit out there, with names like Chamberlin (LB), Evans (LB), Polk (LB), etc out there to catch the ball. If anything, that was the biggest coaching blunder of the game.

knowyourfootball
11-28-2005, 03:45 PM
First lets understand that that was the Texans hands team, and secondly lets understand how the majority of NFL "hands" teams differ from college or high school...With NFL hands teams there is a front line and then behind them there is two to three more guys. One of these three guys is designated the "ball guy"...His only job is to get the ball while everyone else's job is specifically to block and keep the kicking team members off of the "ball guy" and are not to go after the ball or touch it unless it is kicked directly to them. The Rams executed a kick which is call a "bomb" kick. The kicker drives the ball into the ground, which is very hard to do on natural grass and im also told very painful for kickers to do so, and renders the ball live and not eligible for a fair catch... if executed perfectly and only perfectly, which it most certainly was, will result with a member of the recieving team being "blown up", hense the word "bomb" kick,and jarring the ball loose..

Vinny
11-28-2005, 03:52 PM
First lets understand that that was the Texans hands team, and secondly lets understand how the majority of NFL "hands" teams differ from college or high school...With NFL hands teams there is a front line and then behind them there is two to three more guys. One of these three guys is designated the "ball guy"...His only job is to get the ball while everyone else's job is specifically to block and keep the kicking team members off of the "ball guy" and are not to go after the ball or touch it unless it is kicked directly to them. The Rams executed a kick which is call a "bomb" kick. The kicker drives the ball into the ground, which is very hard to do on natural grass and im also told very painful for kickers to do so, and renders the ball live and not eligible for a fair catch... if executed perfectly and only perfectly, which it most certainly was, will result with a member of the recieving team being "blown up", hense the word "bomb" kick,and jarring the ball loose.. Good post...welcome aboard

ojthecat
11-28-2005, 04:21 PM
Saw your post and couldn't help but go back and look at the replay on dvr. The kick bounced immediately after it was kicked and bounced a mile in the air.

I'm not saying Coleman shouldn't wear goat horns after his mistakes yesterday, but that kick did hit the ground...


I dont see the ball hitting the ground

mean mark8
11-28-2005, 04:33 PM
First lets understand that that was the Texans hands team, and secondly lets understand how the majority of NFL "hands" teams differ from college or high school...With NFL hands teams there is a front line and then behind them there is two to three more guys. One of these three guys is designated the "ball guy"...His only job is to get the ball while everyone else's job is specifically to block and keep the kicking team members off of the "ball guy" and are not to go after the ball or touch it unless it is kicked directly to them. The Rams executed a kick which is call a "bomb" kick. The kicker drives the ball into the ground, which is very hard to do on natural grass and im also told very painful for kickers to do so, and renders the ball live and not eligible for a fair catch... if executed perfectly and only perfectly, which it most certainly was, will result with a member of the recieving team being "blown up", hense the word "bomb" kick,and jarring the ball loose..
So what happens on a "non-bomb" on-sides kick against us? We have just linebackers there to recover the ball? Why not have running backs and TEs lined up on the first line with the hands guys being wide-receivers behind them. If what you're saying is true, wouldn't it make sense to have the "ball guy" be our best-hands player on the team, Derrick Armstrong? Was Armstrong even on the field? Or AJ or Gaffney or DD? I just don't believe that Marcus Coleman is the best choice to have lined up as a "hands guy." JMO.

As I've said before, I don't have the game taped or on Tivo, but I saw it replayed several times on channel 13 last night and I never saw it hit the ground. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, I just couldn't see it from the replays they showed. I think in any case, Coleman could've or should've given a fair catch signal to at least make the defenders question whether they could hit him or not and/or create a reviewable scenario for the refs.

knowyourfootball
11-28-2005, 04:57 PM
No, the same thing happens unless the ball is kicked directly at you and at a relatively slow speed you are told to let the ball go to the second line and prevent the other team from getting to the ball. The reason for the "ball guy" is that the majority of onside kicks are kicked to the same hole, 12-15yds deep and withing two yards of the sidelines. This give the defense the best chance at recovering, its the farthest the ball can be kicked (one to two yards from opposite sideline) increasing the amount of time the kicking teams has to run 12-15yds to recover it. In recent years becasue of the success of the ball guys, teams have tried other things like kicking to the two man side or a middle roll. A middle roll being when the kicker kicks the ball directly in front of him and has his men block for him whille he tries to recover it. The "ball guy" isnt just designated for bomb kicks he is designated for all onside kick situations. Im not saying MC was the ball guy, but it most certainly looked that way, the way they were aligned and his reaction. Also to note, other second line players are supposed to break to the ball in case of a loose ball, i think some players relaxed when Coleman went up for the ball.
As for the ball hitting the ground, the kicker did drive the ball directly into the ground off of the tee, it happens so fast you can pretty much only tell by the sounds, the kicker kicking it and the ball hitting the ground.
You Really have to give the Rams a lot of credit for executing that play to perfection, it can't be done any better. Period.
If marcus would've have fair caught it he would have been murdered. Give him props for making a heck of a play, he went way up to get it. He got hit by two rams players at the same time with one of them putting their helmet right on the ball. I dont think anyone on the Texans roster would've held on to that one, well maybe Toro but he's on the practice squad still, when are Casserly and Capers gonna see the light and bring Toro up for a game and give the bull a chance.

GoodNews
11-30-2005, 04:22 AM
...

As I've said before, I don't have the game taped or on Tivo, but I saw it replayed several times on channel 13 last night and I never saw it hit the ground. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, I just couldn't see it from the replays they showed. I think in any case, Coleman could've or should've given a fair catch signal to at least make the defenders question whether they could hit him or not and/or create a reviewable scenario for the refs.


I'm in the same boat, don't have it recorded by any method, but saw it replayed ad nauseam during the game and on other sports programs. One angle I never saw was the camera showing directly down the 30-yardline revealing the kicking-team's alignment and the kicker's contact with the ball. That would have shown definitively if the ball was chopped into the turf.

However, from the limited replays I've seen: Giving the sine curve of the ball's trajectory and the altitude it obtained, it would require the ball be kicked at, or above, where the top white stripe is on many footballs. This should cause the kicker to adjust his standard starting distance, leg swing and follow through. I saw none of that in the (admitted limited) replays I've viewed. I really wish I'd recorded the game as we all know what we think we see isn't always what occured.

All that aside; the "outside" players (players near the out-of-bounds line) on all professional "anti-onside kick" special teams (for those who don't like the term "hands team" which they are referred to in the pros, as well as college and HS) are taught that if opposing players are too close and the receiver is not sure he can control the ball, slap it out of bounds, very high if possible. Onside kicks near a sideline should never end up in the kicking team's possession unless a LOT of things go wrong with simple execution by the receiving team.

:tv: