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HeartofHouston
11-27-2005, 11:27 AM
Should We or Should We Not Trade down from the #1 Overall Pick..

From what I'm hearing value wise we can get an extra 2nd and 3rd this year and a 2nd Next Year if we trade down to "X" position in the draft..

With All the Holes To Fill In Our Team it sounds like a Heck of an idea to me.

with an extra 2nd and 3rd We could pick up..

2nd - OLB Rocky McIntosh (UMiami) or OLB Bobby Carpenter (Ohio St.)
and 3rd - DE Kamerion Wimbley (Florida St.) or DE Mark Anderson (Bama)

or

2nd - OT Marcus McNeill (Aub) or OT Joe Thomas (Wisc)
and 3rd - WR Hank Bassett (New Mexico) or WR Maurice Stovall (ND)

----

How ever if we stay at the #1 Spot We Have the Mind Blowing Reggie Bush. I mean I LOVE Reggie Bush dont get me wrong.. Every time he touched the ball my eyes light up knowing that something exciting is gonna happen.. But is he really worth giving up 2 extra Very Good Players??

Right now our team is up s#!t creek with no paddle and we need all the help that we can get.. And I mean honestly.. If we do not select Reggie Bush with the 1st pick it's not gonna be the end of the world.. I guarantee it. And it hurts me to say it cause I would cry from excitement to see Bush in a Texan's Jersey.. but look at these stats..

DeAngelo Williams
279 Rushes 1726 Yrds 6.2 Avg 76 Long 15 TDs

Laurnece Maroney
255 Rushes 1355 Yrds 5.3 Avg 93 Long 10 TDs

Now while they dont look as good as Bush's stats.. But these are still Great players that could easily come in a start for 60% of the NFL teams right away and they certainly could come in and start for this team..

So on 1 Hand you have

1- HB Reggie Bush (USC)
2- "??"
3- "??"
3- "??"

and on the other hand you have...

1- HB DeAngelo Williams (Memp)
2- CB DeMario Minter (UGA)
2- "??"
3- OLB Rocky McIntosh (UMiami)
3- "??"
3- "??"

So what do you guys think???

Napa Auto Parts
11-27-2005, 11:32 AM
It Wouldnt be woth it if we trade down and pass on the two stud in this draft Bush or Lion Heart i at least want a a swap of 1st rounds and their 1st next year sort of like the chagers took the giants for.

Hervoyel
11-27-2005, 12:11 PM
The decision to stay put or trade down depends heavily on whether or not you think the Texans are 1-9 because of Casserly or because of Capers & staff. I for one think that the Texans are not as short on talent as this season would lead many of us to believe.

I think the onus is on the coaching here because players who performed well enough on other teams come here and become ineffective, hence I believe that when the coaching staff is replaced we will see a lot of improvement out of these same guys.

Taking that into account I do not agree with the idea of trading down. In fact I think we need to trade up and get back into the first round after we take Bush.

Nobody we take at LT is going to start right away and nor should they. They'll start at RT if they start at all. Going back to the "new coaches" angle I expect Todd Wade to return to his previous form once Pendry has been kicked to the curb. So I say we draft Bush at the 1, then trade our 2 and one of our 3's with someone to get back into the first round, and then grab the best LT prospect still there. With the final 3 we have remaining we grab us a TE.

Wolf
11-27-2005, 12:54 PM
The decision to stay put or trade down depends heavily on whether or not you think the Texans are 1-9 because of Casserly or because of Capers & staff. I for one think that the Texans are not as short on talent as this season would lead many of us to believe.

I think the onus is on the coaching here because players who performed well enough on other teams come here and become ineffective, hence I believe that when the coaching staff is replaced we will see a lot of improvement out of these same guys.

Taking that into account I do not agree with the idea of trading down. In fact I think we need to trade up and get back into the first round after we take Bush.

Nobody we take at LT is going to start right away and nor should they. They'll start at RT if they start at all. Going back to the "new coaches" angle I expect Todd Wade to return to his previous form once Pendry has been kicked to the curb. So I say we draft Bush at the 1, then trade our 2 and one of our 3's with someone to get back into the first round, and then grab the best LT prospect still there. With the final 3 we have remaining we grab us a TE.

jonathon scott?

Scooter
11-27-2005, 03:38 PM
i'm on the other side of that herv, because i think casserly shoulders as much blame as capers+staff. our offensive line is pathetic, and it's mostly in pass protection ... that's just lack of talent that has yet to be addressed. we dont have a single TE. p-burnt is the second best cb on this team and i dont think that's going to cut it. we have no depth at lb. coleman is likely in his last year here and we've got no real safety IMO. the only areas i feel that we're atleast adequate with starter & depth is at RB & WR.

the best thing we can do for this team is replace the coaching staff, no doubt. a competant coach will get a whole lot more out of the guys that we have, but it's my opinion that we're defficient in too many areas to draft bpa if it's not a hole to fill. bush is likely to be an outstanding addition to any team he goes to, i just think that it doesnt matter how good he is because we have too many areas to fix which can be done by trading down.

HeartofHouston
11-27-2005, 03:48 PM
i'm on the other side of that herv, because i think casserly shoulders as much blame as capers+staff. our offensive line is pathetic, and it's mostly in pass protection ... that's just lack of talent that has yet to be addressed. we dont have a single TE. p-burnt is the second best cb on this team and i dont think that's going to cut it. we have no depth at lb. coleman is likely in his last year here and we've got no real safety IMO. the only areas i feel that we're atleast adequate with starter & depth is at RB & WR.

the best thing we can do for this team is replace the coaching staff, no doubt. a competant coach will get a whole lot more out of the guys that we have, but it's my opinion that we're defficient in too many areas to draft bpa if it's not a hole to fill. bush is likely to be an outstanding addition to any team he goes to, i just think that it doesnt matter how good he is because we have too many areas to fix which can be done by trading down.


Thank you scooter, like i said earlier I like Reggie Bush probably more than everybody on this board.. but you have to think about what's better for the team.. ONE Awesome player is not enough for us.. not with all the problem areas that we have.. why not 1 Great, 1 Really Good and 1 Good player. who in time will make up for not taking Bush..

Getting an extra 2nd and 3rd will allow us to pick up.. DeMario Minter to replace Bush and then the new Coach/GM can do whatever they want with the 3rd.. and with that first we can still take a great player.. DeAngelo Williams, Winston, Johnathan Scott or Laurence Maroney whoever they want.. we need Help and fast..

Corrosion
11-27-2005, 05:12 PM
It Wouldnt be woth it if we trade down and pass on the two stud in this draft Bush or Lion Heart i at least want a a swap of 1st rounds and their 1st next year sort of like the chagers took the giants for.


I'd take that deal ONLY if it included a pick in the 2-6 range of round one , anything lower and they have to up the ante :ok:

thetexanator
11-27-2005, 05:14 PM
no way mcneal gets to the 2nd rd.

TexanFanInDenver
11-27-2005, 06:48 PM
I think trading down would be a BAD idea. What will they really do with the extra picks? Draft someone like Jason Babin or Vernand Morency? I don't think they would use the extra picks wisely.

Or how about last year when they traded down? I mean, how many people thought it was a given that the Texans were going to pick DJ when he fell in their lap?

Maybe going for Bush isn't a bad idea. The arguement here is that he won't be able to do anything behind this line, wich I agree with 100%. But, Max Jean-Gilles might fall to the second round, or they can chase him in the first like they did Babin. That is only one year he won't do anything.

Yes this team has a lot of needs but how many big plays have they had this season? DD never gets one, but even behind a bad line Bush can break one every now and then, just like Mathis does on KR's.

What about the 2007 draft? We can get a LT then. Which do think you will see, another Bush or another Ferguson. LT's like Ferguson come every year. But a RB Like Bush?

1. Bush
2. Gilles
3. TE

hot pickle
11-27-2005, 07:03 PM
We need two new Safties, maybe get some that will help are CB's

HeartofHouston
11-27-2005, 07:09 PM
First off hopefully we will have a whole new staff that knows how to evaluate talent properly so there wont be anymore "Babin" type picks. And with those extra picks we will get more big for our buck.

As everybody knows there is still first round talent available in the early 2nd round.. so in actuality we could end up with like 3 plyers that are 1st Round worthy instead of 2.

instead of Bush in the 1st and Jean-Giles in the 2nd we could get..

1st Mario Williams/Kiwi , 2nd Jean Giles/Johnathan Scott and DeMario Minter.

Some people would say Davis doesnt make big plays but coming out and being a good recevier out he bag field and being a hard runner and getting positive yard is what Houston needs.. no there probably wont be another bush for another 5 or so years and the same with Brickshaw but you have to realize is that the Texans need a LOTTA help on both sides of the ball and 1 offensive player is not gonna do it.

We have the opportunity to Fix the Pass Rush Issue with Mario Williams/Kiwi, get a Good Offensive Line to Better Than O-Line and Get DeMario Minter to replace Buchannon.

Davis has been very good to us.. despite the poor offensive line play and the poor coaching and play calling imagine what he can do with a good line, better play calling and a defense getting the ball back to him and the offense.

TexanFanInDenver
11-27-2005, 07:35 PM
Yeah DD has been awsome for the texans, and I'm not saying get rid of him. If the Texans do bring in Bush they will definately need to keep DD because Bush isn't an every down back. They could use DD inbetween the tackles just like usc does with Lendale White.

As for Mario Williams, thats like going for another Travis Johnson. Bad idea. If you use this pick without getting Ferguson or Bush it would HAVE to be A.J. Hawk.

And having more than one rookie on the offensive line is also a bad idea. That won't help anything next year either. But by all means, please do replace buchannon.

Napa Auto Parts
11-27-2005, 07:39 PM
Our Current line could block for Bush and besides im more of the believe that a great running back makes a great O-line sort of like LT did with san diego you have a bunch of average joes playing at a probowl level.

HeartofHouston
11-27-2005, 07:41 PM
I'm not saying using the first overall on Mario.. if we trade down to 5-8 we can pick him or Kiwi up with that pick..

and as far as having a rookie and a 1 yr guy. It doesnt really matter production is production.. Peppers and Freeney both had MONSTEROUS rookie campaigns..

TexanFanInDenver
11-27-2005, 07:55 PM
I see what you are saying, but having all that production up front and nothing behind them, is hardly going to help the D.

So, trade out of the first overall for Mario and buchannons replacement, instead of Bush?

HeartofHouston
11-27-2005, 08:00 PM
As we all Know or at least should know.. defense wins championships..

Like I said I LOVE Reggie Bush.. to see him in a Texan's Jersey I would probably cry from excitement.. but you gotta think about it logically..

Mario Williams is a Demon at DE and with him rushing the QB.. The opposing QBs will rush their throws and rushing your throw against.. Robinson and Minter will cause QBs to have nightmares.. i guarantee it..

TexanFanInDenver
11-27-2005, 08:09 PM
I know exactly where you are coming from here because I disagreed with it at first too. But what if you go with Tapp, some say he could go in the third. not quite the same caliber but, you still get Bush. But even going with that, you are still leaving you linebackers lost. I Think we need a LB before another player on the D line.

HeartofHouston
11-27-2005, 08:24 PM
Only LB That should go that high is AJ Hawk.. but honestly once again I love AJ Hawk but there OUtside Linebackers thru the butt in the draft.. Ryans, Carpenter, Howard and McIntosh are all good OLB that we could take well they might not be as Mind Blowing as Hawk but we can pick up Williams/Kiwi and McIntosh/Ryans..

So why not take a Dominator in Mario Williams??

TexanFanInDenver
11-27-2005, 08:32 PM
If the Texans pass on Ferguson and Bush with the first overall, But still can pick up an OL,DL,LB,and a CB that aren't going to be a bust like Babin or Buchannon, than I am all for it. Hopefully it will work out that way.

HeartofHouston
11-27-2005, 08:43 PM
Yeah hoepfully they wont.. hopefully we have the proper staff to evaluate talent properly this time..

They do good with their first picks but after that they kinda just throw darts in the dark..

Carr, Johnson, Robinson and Johnson good picks..

everything after that after that was a flop..

except DD i like him.. :texflag:

swtbound07
11-27-2005, 09:15 PM
and if we draft lord reggie bush and he is a bust and we still have no o-line? then what geniuses?

TexanFanInDenver
11-27-2005, 09:20 PM
How many rookie offensive linemen would you like to start next year?

Scooter
11-27-2005, 09:32 PM
of the top 5 lt's projected to come out this year i think 4 would instantly start on our team (the 5th being the obligatory bust) because of our lack of talent. look at us this year, a 6th round rookie is a major upgrade over the incumbant who's getting paid as if he were a top tier guy. i've got no problem starting 3 rookies on that line at lt, rg, & c because it'd be hard for them not to be an upgrade.

YoungTexanFan
11-27-2005, 10:37 PM
How many rookie offensive linemen would you like to start next year?


Rookie #1, Weigert, Hodgen, Rookie #2, Pitts


Rookie #1- Fuerguson
Rookie #2- Luiti


D'brick in the first, Luiti in the 4th

swtbound07
11-27-2005, 11:26 PM
i would be completely fine with the 2 rookie linemen.....how many times would you like to see david carr knocked on his butt? cause if you stick with the current arrangement, im taking the over line on 40

J-Storm
11-28-2005, 05:05 AM
and if we draft lord reggie bush and he is a bust and we still have no o-line? then what geniuses?

I totally agree. When the opposing D is on Bush as fast as they are on Carr :ouch: he won't beat these defenses in the NFL like the 1's he is facing in college :twocents:

BigBull17
11-28-2005, 08:00 AM
And thats what it comes down to. Bush wont be able to consistantly make the pros look like children. Hes actually gonna get hit and thats what worries me about drafting him. He hardly gets hit at USC so we have no toughness reading. I think the Texans have to build their line this year. And with the 1st pick they will be able to trade down and maybe get a weapon as well.

TheOgre
11-28-2005, 08:41 AM
What about the 2007 draft? We can get a LT then. Which do think you will see, another Bush or another Ferguson. LT's like Ferguson come every year. But a RB Like Bush?

In our first draft, there were a couple of guys that have turned into solid LT's (Bryant McKinnie - Minnesota and Levi Jones - Cincinnati). Over the past three drafts, there has only been one top LT prospect, Gallery. We absolutely no way to draft him. This draft has the best depth of top end prospects at LT in many years. However, you cannot merely trade into the bottom of the 1st round to get one of them. They will probably all be gone in the 1st half of the 1st round.

If we don't take one this year, we might not get one for years. A LT takes a couple of seasons to develop too. So if you are proposing we gamble that a LT is in next year's draft, then we have to wait until 2008 (at the earliest) until he is any good. That is assuming, (1) one is available in next year's draft, AND (2) that we will have the opportunity to draft him. This team has already gone 4 years without having a good LT. Do we really want to go 3+ more seasons and continue to watch our QB's get beaten like a pinatta before we do something about it?

IMO Reggie Bush is a lot like Brian Westbrook and Ferguson is a lot like Walter Jones. Personally, I would rather add a young Walter Jones to our team.

Kaiser Toro
11-28-2005, 08:54 AM
In our first draft, there were a couple of guys that have turned into solid LT's (Bryant McKinnie - Minnesota and Levi Jones - Cincinnati). Over the past three drafts, there has only been one top LT prospect, Gallery. We absolutely no way to draft him. This draft has the best depth of top end prospects at LT in many years. However, you cannot merely trade into the bottom of the 1st round to get one of them. They will probably all be gone in the 1st half of the 1st round.

If we don't take one this year, we might not get one for years. A LT takes a couple of seasons to develop too. So if you are proposing we gamble that a LT is in next year's draft, then we have to wait until 2008 (at the earliest) until he is any good. That is assuming, (1) one is available in next year's draft, AND (2) that we will have the opportunity to draft him. This team has already gone 4 years without having a good LT. Do we really want to go 3+ more seasons and continue to watch our QB's get beaten like a pinatta before we do something about it?

IMO Reggie Bush is a lot like Brian Westbrook and Ferguson is a lot like Walter Jones. Personally, I would rather add a young Walter Jones to our team.

Totally agree with your take.

MorKnolle
11-28-2005, 10:26 AM
I would still rather have Winston. Ferguson is smaller and probably quicker but mainly suited for LT and pass blocking. Winston is bigger and stronger and can run block much better and can move to different spots on the line, and I don't want a rookie starting at LT until maybe late in their first season, plus Winston isn't getting the publicity that Ferguson is so we could trade down a little farther in the draft to get him (maybe the 6-10 spot) and pick up more/better picks than we could get for Ferguson. Either way, if we trade down to the 4-8 pick and Bush somehow falls to us, I would have a hard time passing up on him, but I still think we need one OT. If we weren't as solid at RB as we currently are then I'd say get Bush for sure, but we need better OL.

HeartofHouston
11-28-2005, 10:36 AM
If by some magical twist we trade down and Bush falls to us, but we still get another pick.. WE HAVE to pick him up..

IMO We trade down for my help/more picks.. but IF and that's a Big IF.. Bush falls to us somehow the staff would be crazy not to pick him then..

cadahnic
11-28-2005, 11:36 AM
How is it that the man Mork knows that Winston is the better OL player. Winston can line up anywere on the line and play at a high level. Think of Winston as a stronger faster Jordan Gross. He is a talent. Ferguson is not Walter Jones, Walter Jones was bigger, stronger, and faster coming out of college. Not saying that Ferguson will not be a good or even great LT but he cannot play any other posistion due to his strength and size. I rather have OL guys with mean streaks and can fill multiple posistions alot like the Eagles, Panthers, Patriots, and Broncos offensive lines.

Kaiser Toro
11-28-2005, 11:43 AM
How is it that the man Mork knows that Winston is the better OL player. Winston can line up anywere on the line and play at a high level. Think of Winston as a stronger faster Jordan Gross. He is a talent. Ferguson is not Walter Jones, Walter Jones was bigger, stronger, and faster coming out of college. Not saying that Ferguson will not be a good or even great LT but he cannot play any other posistion due to his strength and size. I rather have OL guys with mean streaks and can fill multiple posistions alot like the Eagles, Panthers, Patriots, and Broncos offensive lines.

Here, here. We cannot reach for potential in the draft any longer. We need guys who can play right away.

cadahnic
11-28-2005, 11:48 AM
Kaiser I have to say hell yes I agree with you. We have the talent on this team to compete with anyone in this league we need guys that can come in and fill the holes that have to be filled. My dream offseason goes like this.

Fire Coaching staff. Hire Kubiack HC, Brian Shottenheimer OC, Dennison OLC, Hoke DC, Marciano ST. Hire JJ or the guy from the Ravens to be GM.

Sign FAs- LeCharles Bentley C/G, Andra Davis ILB, any hitting S or DB
Draft- Winston, and any holes that have not been filled in FA. S, TE, pass rush DE, LB(2), tough DB

beerlover
11-28-2005, 11:55 AM
Kaiser I have to say hell yes I agree with you. We have the talent on this team to compete with anyone in this league we need guys that can come in and fill the holes that have to be filled. My dream offseason goes like this.

Fire Coaching staff. Hire Kubiack HC, Brian Shottenheimer OC, Dennison OLC, Hoke DC, Marciano ST. Hire JJ or the guy from the Ravens to be GM.

Sign FAs- LeCharles Bentley C/G, Andra Davis ILB, any hitting S or DB
Draft- Winston, and any holes that have not been filled in FA. S, TE, pass rush DE, LB(2), tough DB

you should'nt be so modest with that list you seem like as good a canidate as any for the GM position as well :)

HomeBred_Texan
11-28-2005, 12:06 PM
It Wouldnt be woth it if we trade down and pass on the two stud in this draft Bush or Lion Heart i at least want a a swap of 1st rounds and their 1st next year sort of like the chagers took the giants for.
I agree...

We better get some very high value for trading down just a little bit. And the chargers and giants only swapped 1 and 3 picks in the first round and the chargers got there first round the following year. We better do better than that if we pass on Bush or Leinart...

HeartofHouston
11-28-2005, 12:55 PM
That would be a good plan.. But in that case we would have to have to hold Leinart of Bush hostage and hope that another team offers that.. and the only team that I see really doing that is maybe Minn or Bal.. cause they have plenty of talent all over the team and they possibly feel like they are that one player away from being back on top..

Baltimore.. Needs Lienart and Minn Needs Bush.. so if we do decide to do that then we just gotta hope that they are that desperate for that 1 player to complete their team..

aj.
11-28-2005, 01:06 PM
Just don't let it be Casserly making these moves.

BigBull17
11-28-2005, 01:08 PM
If by some magical twist we trade down and Bush falls to us, but we still get another pick.. WE HAVE to pick him up..

IMO We trade down for my help/more picks.. but IF and that's a Big IF.. Bush falls to us somehow the staff would be crazy not to pick him then..
IF we trade down to say 5th and hes still there then yeah I have to agree with you. But that wont happen so we get our LT