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View Full Version : John McClain to the Defense of Carr !


nunusguy
11-23-2005, 10:55 AM
"Is Carr playing well? No. Has he regressed? Yes. Is he dazed and confused? Yes. Does he have a lot to learn? Of course. Should the Texans pay him the $8 million bonus before the last game ó Super Bowl XL on Feb. 5 ó to keep him through the 2008 season? Yes."
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3479527.html
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I dunno.....I really don't know what to think of the Carr situation ?
But here's McClain's take on the dilemma.

WWJD
11-23-2005, 11:00 AM
I'm torn on the whole paying the bonus or not.

On the one hand if you pay him it's almost as though you're rewarding him in some weird way for playing very poorly.

On the other hand if you don't he goes elsewhere and could possibly be a good QB for another team. There is no doubt in my mind somebody would pick him up.

I just don't know.

Rich Lord of 610 says it's a done deal though and David will get his bonus.

Vinny
11-23-2005, 11:06 AM
The team would be dumb not to kick in the 2 year option since it's going to take two full years to get this thing rebuilt. Carr is no longer a franchise QB and is just another QB trying to win a job next year, so we need to seek out another QB and have some HONEST competition for the most important job on the field. What would be really dumb is to resign him and tell the back up that he has no chance to start. Bring in another credible QB for cripes sakes. This is the only position on the team that doesn't have honest competition.

rmartin65
11-23-2005, 11:07 AM
I think Carr can be a very good quarterback.

Kaiser Toro
11-23-2005, 11:11 AM
"Is Carr playing well? No. Has he regressed? Yes. Is he dazed and confused? Yes. Does he have a lot to learn? Of course. Should the Texans pay him the $8 million bonus before the last game ó Super Bowl XL on Feb. 5 ó to keep him through the 2008 season? Yes."
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3479527.html
***********************************************
I dunno.....I really don't know what to think of the Carr situation ?
But here's McClain's take on the dilemma.

I am ok with the article, he gave me my out to spare me fom this diatribe:
"Now, be honest, please. If, after last season, you thought Carr should be shipped out of town on the first Amtrak to anywhere because you foresaw what was going to happen to him this season, then you have every right to crow. You are a personnel expert, indeed."

The statement is to harsh for my taste, but I have never believed Carr was a top tier QB coming out of FSU.

Kaiser Toro
11-23-2005, 11:19 AM
What really irks me here is that a true leader would have told the coaches to get a clue a long time ago. Carr could have said, "I am the face of the franchise and you are not utilizing my strengths." Which begs the question has the bonus been communicated to him a long time ago? Is there an assurance that he will be placed as starting QB for the next 2 to 3 years? It reeks of blind loyalty and future salary cap H-E-double toothpick.

I find it odd that someone would take a beating for four years and go through this type of season without saying a word. As a former competitor I would never have allowed this to happen without making a stand for myself and the direction of the team that I lead.

Vinny
11-23-2005, 11:23 AM
I find it odd that someone would take a beating for four years and go through this type of season without saying a word. As a former competitor I would never have allowed this to happen without making a stand for myself and the direction of the team that I lead. It's hard to be critical of others when you can't do your job very well yourself.

WWJD
11-23-2005, 11:24 AM
Somebody posted on another thread I read some days ago that David was asked about being a leader on the team and he didnt' consider himself a leader. I'm paraphrasing because it's been awhile since I read it but I thought at the time that his comments were kind of odd. I always thought he was a leader..don't know why but those first couple of years he seemed to be. Maybe I was seeing things that weren't there.

Kaiser Toro
11-23-2005, 11:27 AM
Carr had like...40+ TDs throwing and running, 30+ of which were passing. Carr was just a stud, and was hands down the best QB in that class. There was no reason what school he came out of that said he couldn't be a top tier QB. The top 4 Heisman products were all QBs, Harrington (Oregon), Couch (Nebraska), Grossman (Florida), and some other loser (big time school). So Carr has obviously had the most success with the least amount of a supporting cast. Grossman is one of those unfortunate cases. The things with Carr is this...You can't expect a proffessional baseball player to hit a home-run without a bat.

He may have been the best of the lot, but not necssairly the right pick at #1 for Houston.

Corrosion
11-23-2005, 11:37 AM
For once I agree with McLane .... did I really just type that ? Guess I did .

Anyhow the offensive problems are pretty much a direct result of what McLane said , Putting people in a system that DOESNT use their strengths . Add the fact that Carr has NEVER had even so much as a decent O-line to protect him what can you expect of the guy ?

Carr is no Pey-Me-A-Ton Manning nor is he Joe Montana .... I think he's more like a Dan Marino or Bret Favre type of QB ... Both of whom took / take a lot of sacks and throw a lot of INT's but make a lot more big plays .... The offenses their teams use play to the strengths of their QB .

David Carr isnt going to beat you like Steve Young completing 15 passes in a row on one drive . Carr and his best reciever are both best suited to a big play offense ....something like Green Bay has run in the past . But until they get an O-line who can give him time to throw and a second reciever to take some heat off of AJ .... He isnt gonna be very successful .

Where to start ? I think the Interior of the O-line (LG and Center) and a TE would be a fantastic place to start while moving Chester Pitts back to LT . Another playmaker to help AJ would seal the deal ..... anyone say Reggie Bush ? (NEVER thought I'd say that myself).

Simply put Carr has never been put in a position to succeed ... Before he's shipped outa town on the night train I'd like to see a few more pieces around him

Kaiser Toro
11-23-2005, 12:12 PM
I do not want to turn this into another thread, but it would have been Julius Peppers. Do I think that the choice was bad at the time when we took Carr, no. Just not the best solution as I was not sold that Carr's ability would scale out the way his contrct would.

touttail
11-23-2005, 12:30 PM
Carr is no longer a franchise QB and is just another QB trying to win a job next year, so we need to seek out another QB and have some HONEST competition for the most important job on the field. .

True-True-True
Carr has always been the man. He has never had to compete with anyone for a starting job. Maybe some competetion would light a fire in him!

bobby 119C:brickwall

touttail
11-23-2005, 12:31 PM
Somebody posted on another thread I read some days ago that David was asked about being a leader on the team and he didnt' consider himself a leader. I'm paraphrasing because it's been awhile since I read it but I thought at the time that his comments were kind of odd. I always thought he was a leader..don't know why but those first couple of years he seemed to be. Maybe I was seeing things that weren't there.

He better change his way of thinking, because the QB is definitely the LEADER of the team and has to take charge of the team. Carr really hasn't done this!

bobby 119C:brickwall

Kaiser Toro
11-23-2005, 12:40 PM
The thing with Peppers is I think he is really good in that system. For the most part, he is a well rounded player, but I think he would be in the same boat as Carr is in now. He would have looked really good at times, but I think he would have become irrelivent like the organization is making Carr now.

I will have to disagree with you as Peppers is a total freak who makes plays and can disrupt the other sides scheme. In a nut shell the Offense has to make sure Peppers is accounted for on every play. Do you think that any defense has ever had to scheme against Carr? This goes to the heart of my debate on intangibles that DC makes no one around him better.

Lucky
11-23-2005, 12:48 PM
I will have to disagree with you as Peppers is a total freak who makes plays and can disrupt the other sides scheme...
Give our coaching staff a little credit, please. I'm certain they could have ruined Peppers if given the chance.

GP
11-23-2005, 12:53 PM
First off, let's take a look at the landscape of the NFL in terms of QB.

You've got a team like Pittsburgh who will not let a guy like Maddox or Batch, both of which are not top tier QBs, go to other teams such as the Jets who had to bring back Testaverde of all people.

The truth is that NFL QBs are hard to come by. Volek wanted to go to the Jets when Pennington went down this year, but the Titans were having NONE of that. Teams refuse to let go of even their 2nd and 3rd string QBs because the crop is just not deep enough. The lone exception would be Dilfer, or maybe Feeley. Dilfer won a Super Bowl and was let go. Feeley was supposed to be the Dolphins next big thing.

My point is that even though we are seeing regression with Carr this year, stop for a second and take off the hater glasses...look forward to a whole new scenario next year. Carr needs next year, and possibly the next after that, just like Capers needed this season after a few semi-satisfying seasons the past hree years ago to show us what he's really got. A whole host of teams would willingly give Carr a chance considering what they have at the QB position thus far. I know it's been rumored that a lot of NFL teams are saying CARR is the problem, but I don't buy it and I've covered the reasons why in that post a long time ago.

Capers' ultimate end destination, after this season, is the sidewalk. In my opinion, it would be going overboard to chunk a guy like Carr at the same time. Even if it's only for the fact that we'll always wonder if it was Carr or Capers who crashed this ship. I know that's not a priority to find out, but it's just another reason in my opinion to let Capers and staff go...but keep the kid and see if he can deliver.

I am very disgruntled toward Carr this year. Don't get me wrong. But I would like to see him get another year or two at the most. And HOPEFULLY a new coach will allow true competition at QB during camp and preseason. That has been a major contributing factor to Carr's decline IMO.

Vinny
11-23-2005, 12:54 PM
The thing with Peppers is I think he is really good in that system. For the most part, he is a well rounded player, but I think he would be in the same boat as Carr is in now. He would have looked really good at times, but I think he would have become irrelivent like the organization is making Carr now. All you have to do is watch a few games and it's pretty easy to see that Peppers dominates people enough to make teams have to double him. Saying Peppers is a system guy is silly. Peppers changes the way you want to do business as an offense because you often have to dedicate an extra player to him. Some quarterbacks do this as well since you don't have to defense Trent Dilfer like you have to defense Peyton Manning. While Carr has every physical tool in the book he is a slow decision maker and takes too long to readjust to his secondary read. It's possible that Carr matures late like another small school guy in Rich Gannon. Rich was the kind of QB that was a good runner and bloomed late as a passer. Rich seemed to have a better feel for the game though. Carr has had 50+ starts to improve his intangibles and nobody can argue that he has much intuitive feel for this game. Only Texans homers (and Carr only fans who follow him from Fresno St) would consider Carr the better pick at this point. I’d take a 'Rich Gannon late bloomer level qb' if Carr can get there, but we all know what Peppers can do and nobody is waiting for him to prove it.

Kaiser Toro
11-23-2005, 12:54 PM
Give our coaching staff a little credit, please. I'm certain they could have ruined Peppers if given the chance.

I spent some time around Peppers when he was on the UNC Basketball team and I would not think that he would be the type of guy that would allow this pack of misfits we call a staff to take away his strengths and future earning power.

In my opinion, Carr is what we call in the basketball world soft.

nunusguy
11-23-2005, 01:39 PM
The thing with Peppers is I think he is really good in that system.
Exactly. And that system employs a base 4-3 defense where he is the proto type DE. That's why I doubt that Peppers was ever an option for a team who's HC was a 3-4 guy, especially as the #1 overall. That would be like drafting a talented, strong armed QB with your #1 overall to use in a ball-control, run oriented offense. Dang, I think that's one of the points McClain was making in this article.

Hervoyel
11-23-2005, 01:48 PM
I felt like McClain's column was particularly, and probably intentionally dense. He made some good points but he also tossed out some very stupid takes.

His point about the Texans beating Jacksonville and Chicago last year and how that related to where the three teams are doing this year was just dumb. For one thing the Jaguars have a terrible time with the Texans and always have. That doesn't mean anything when the Texans play the other 30 teams in the league.

The Bears were starting Chad Hutchinson at QB last year and had major injuries on their defense but still managed to get to David Carr enough to cause him to come unglued at his offensive line. The only reason the Texans won that game was that Chicago had nothing on offense. The Bears were lucky to get the 5 points they had out of that group.

More than anything none of this has a thing to do with how David Carr is playing this year. Going down John McClain's list of questions I find myself answering them much as he did but drawing very different conclusions.

"Is Carr playing well?" No. I agree with him there.

"Has he regressed?" Yes. I agree with him here as well.

"Is he dazed and confused?" Yes. Again I don't think this is in question.

"Does he have a lot to learn?" Wait a second. What?

How come this guy who's started for four years has a "lot to learn"? What's he been doing since he arrived here in 2002? More important than that what have his coaches been doing with him? Does Carlson Palmer have a lot to learn? He's been starting a lot less time than David Carr and he seems to be thriving. How about Drew Brees? Does he have a lot to learn John? He's been in the league one more year but he's light years ahead of David Carr. Byron Leftwich got a lot to learn John? How about Ben Rothlisberger?

"Should the Texans pay him the $8 million bonus before the last game to keep him through 2008?" No, of course not. Are you out of your mind John?

You can spend less and keep him for two more years while the jury is still out on whether he's ever going to be more than a guy who looks a little better than Joey Harrington. Why in the world would you pay him an $8 million bonus when you have a list of things to fix that's a mile long and he's proven exactly nothing up to this point in his career?

John also harps on David Carr's "career bests" from 11 months ago but fails to mention that these career bests are less than spectacular numbers. They're not bad but ask yourself this question, "Are they $8 million bonus good?" The answer is obvious. No they are not.

After last season we all (with few exceptions) felt that the Cleveland game was an abberration and the Texans were on the rise. McClain's entire "You didn't think he sucked last year" angle is weak and written to cater to people who think that you could take David Carr out of the equation, plug Matt Leinhart into it, and you would win 10 games. Frankly I find it a little insulting.

The reasons we thought the Texans were on the rise involved more than just David Carr, just like the reasons many of us are hesitant about giving him $8 million without question involve more than just "We hate David Carr". It's possible to not hate David Carr but still think that giving him that bonus without forcing him to earn the starting job is a bad idea. I'm a Texans fan, not a David Carr fan. I want what's best for the Texans, not just their quarterback.

I agree with Vinny's suggestion above regarding competition at the QB position. If we're not going to have that then I prefer to see them pass on David Carr's option and want to see Tony Banks or Dave Ragone starting next year (and likely in 2007 as well). Best of all possible worlds is we start over with a competent head coach and staff and get all of this sorted out.

Honch Delgado
11-23-2005, 02:11 PM
Here's more of McClain's drivel. I just don't see justifying paying a guy $8 million based on "potential" when he hasn't really shown any.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texans/3453943.html

SESupergenius
11-23-2005, 02:22 PM
The last thing this team needs right is a QB controversy to go with everything else this team is experiencing. Get a solid line in and stick with it for 2 consecutive years and let them grow as a unit, something we haven't done in our existence. Bring in an offensive coordinator that makes use of EVERY players abilities to the fullest, molds the QB position to use every player available, and calls plays that are surprising to keep the defense off guard. We need an offense that dictates what WE can do, not what the defense gives us. Open up the offense and let Carr run the offense to show us if he has it or not. Bring in a GM that can see talent from a draft and FA, not gambles and poker playing.

mean mark8
11-23-2005, 02:25 PM
We started out last year really well on offense and regressed beginning with the Broncos game. Does anyone consider a win over last year's Bears and Jags a monumental moment in our history? Is Carr playing on a "short bus" offense this year? Yes. I'd like to see how Ragone would run it. I was at the Chiefs game with my brother, down from Denver, and he kept wondering why Carr never even looked at #88 running down the field from the slot position wide open. On virtually every 7 yard out pass that he threw, we had either Armstrong or Andre Johnson running a fly or post pattern down field out of the slot. For whatever reason #44, Eric Warfield, of the Chiefs only jumped on one out pass and took it to the house. He could have had six or more if he'd gone for it.

The thing is with this offense, as pathetic as it's designed, we have no point of comparison because the QB never gets competition. The coaching staff is so scared to see what anyone else could do that Carr is the only QB to take a snap this season, even in blow-outs like this one. McClain could get his wish that Carr will get hurt, then what? We'll probably have Gaffney play the QB position so he won't show up Carr. Don't laugh, we have a college QB on our practice squad at safety. Why'd we draft a QB with our 3rd round pick if we weren't thinking of ever playing him? Why'd we send him to NFL Europe where he became their MVP? From the looks of this message board, we already have a QB controversy over whether we want to pay a "potential" QB an all-pro salary or not. I think it would serve the Texans well to know what they have behind him in making the decision.

TexAntagonise
11-23-2005, 02:42 PM
The thing is with this offense, as pathetic as it's designed, we have no point of comparison because the QB never gets competition. The coaching staff is so scared to see what anyone else could do that Carr is the only QB to take a snap this season, even in blow-outs like this one. McClain could get his wish that Carr will get hurt, then what? We'll probably have Gaffney play the QB position so he won't show up Carr. Don't laugh, we have a college QB on our practice squad at safety.
Why would a coaching staff try and protect a guy if he is going to cost them their JOB. Capers is at every practice. Iím sure he knows what he has as backups behind Carr. If he even thought the backups were CLOSE to Carr he would have benched him by now. Iím sure Capers knows his job is gone after this season. So Iím sure he could care less about hurting Carrís feelings. :brickwall

billtxus
11-23-2005, 02:54 PM
I don't see anything wrong with letting Carr test the market, and then the Texans can decide if they want to match or not. Hard to imagine any other team giving him $8M per year, which is what the contract calls for if picked up. Either that, or go to Carr and renegotiate the contract. He's not worth the $8M, we don't know what he is worth, because the team is so messed up right now. I personally don't care if he stays or not, because I don't think it would be too hard to find a guy who could lead the team to more the one victory. The team will not contend for the playoffs next year, so Banks could probably run the team if need be. Chicago is winning with a rookie QB, so QB is far from the only missing piece right now.

run-david-run
11-23-2005, 03:21 PM
I'm torn on the whole paying the bonus or not.

On the one hand if you pay him it's almost as though you're rewarding him in some weird way for playing very poorly.

On the other hand if you don't he goes elsewhere and could possibly be a good QB for another team. There is no doubt in my mind somebody would pick him up.

I just don't know.

Rich Lord of 610 says it's a done deal though and David will get his bonus.
Funny part is that this is all caused by DC meeting PERFORMANCE INCENTIVES in his contract. I guess he has played better than they originally planed for an expansion team... had he played worse he would still have 3 years on his contract.... go figure...

run-david-run
11-23-2005, 03:26 PM
I do not want to turn this into another thread, but it would have been Julius Peppers. Do I think that the choice was bad at the time when we took Carr, no. Just not the best solution as I was not sold that Carr's ability would scale out the way his contrct would.
We play a 3-4... Peppers is bassically a bigger version of Freeney. There is no way he fits that system.. if we had a 4-3. then maybe...

ThaShark316
11-23-2005, 03:56 PM
Texans will be in a new system in 2006...give Carr til then...if he doesn't show anything...then ok, find a new QB. But what is a new QB going to do for us with say...these same core of players?

mean mark8
11-23-2005, 04:10 PM
Why would a coaching staff try and protect a guy if he is going to cost them their JOB. Capers is at every practice. Iím sure he knows what he has as backups behind Carr. If he even thought the backups were CLOSE to Carr he would have benched him by now. Iím sure Capers knows his job is gone after this season. So Iím sure he could care less about hurting Carrís feelings. :brickwall

So, are you saying Capers is smart then for playing his "franchise" QB when we're down by 28 points late in the 4th quarter? If he knows he's gone, then what does he care about a QB controversy he won't have to deal with if Ragone plays well. Is he really trying to sabotage the next coach by hopefully fulfilling McClain's wish of getting Carr hurt? I mean, on most teams in the NFL, if they had some games like we've had, they wouldn't be playing their number one guy at the end of a game behind a line that leaks like a sieve. We've all seen Carr take a lot of his sacks late in the game when there's no chance of us coming back. What's wrong with playing your 3rd round pick from a couple of years ago to see what he's got?

SESupergenius
11-23-2005, 05:24 PM
We play a 3-4... Peppers is bassically a bigger version of Freeney. There is no way he fits that system.. if we had a 4-3. then maybe...
Peppers and Freeney could play OLB in the 3-4. Brackens basically played a hyrbrid for the Jags when Capers was there, so essentially they were running a form of 3-4. Peppers and Freeney are just those types of athletes that can do many things. Dropping back into coverage is one of them if they are called upon to do it. Add Kearse to that group as well, he played some linebacker in college.
It was a debate from the old boards on who the Texans should of taken 1st. At the time there were more Carr lovers than Pepper lovers.

Runner
11-23-2005, 05:26 PM
What's wrong with playing your 3rd round pick from a couple of years ago to see what he's got?

There is nothing wrong with that.

Bobo
11-23-2005, 05:47 PM
The team would be dumb not to kick in the 2 year option since it's going to take two full years to get this thing rebuilt. Carr is no longer a franchise QB and is just another QB trying to win a job next year, so we need to seek out another QB and have some HONEST competition for the most important job on the field. What would be really dumb is to resign him and tell the back up that he has no chance to start. Bring in another credible QB for cripes sakes. This is the only position on the team that doesn't have honest competition.

This seems silly to me and a waste of money. If you go out and get somebody like Leinert or Young, it's gonna cost you just as much money in the end as it does for David Carr -- and the guy you bring in could be even worse! Plus, you have some really big problems to deal with at the OL and in the defense in general. If you throw that money at the QB position, you'll just be stuck in the mud. I'd like to see them keep Carr and spread the money and draft choices around in places other than the skill positions. Carr may not be another Peyton Manning, but in the end he will suffice.

Bobo
11-23-2005, 05:50 PM
So, are you saying Capers is smart then for playing his "franchise" QB when we're down by 28 points late in the 4th quarter? If he knows he's gone, then what does he care about a QB controversy he won't have to deal with if Ragone plays well. Is he really trying to sabotage the next coach by hopefully fulfilling McClain's wish of getting Carr hurt? I mean, on most teams in the NFL, if they had some games like we've had, they wouldn't be playing their number one guy at the end of a game behind a line that leaks like a sieve. We've all seen Carr take a lot of his sacks late in the game when there's no chance of us coming back. What's wrong with playing your 3rd round pick from a couple of years ago to see what he's got?

You are assuming Capers is out. That is pure speculation. If you were going to fire every coach who had a bad year, then Cowher and Schottenheimer would have been out of the league a long time ago.

Bobo
11-23-2005, 05:53 PM
>I don't see anything wrong with letting Carr test the market, and then the Texans can decide if they want to match or not. Hard to imagine any other team giving him $8M per year, which is what the contract calls for if picked >up.

The Jets, Redskins, Cowboys, Bucs, Cardinals, and Browns just might, not to mention the Lions.

Sco-tai
11-23-2005, 05:58 PM
GPShafer....YOU...are smart. My kind of fan. If you were here, I'd pour ya a brew!

Now to the rest of you football gurus, ditching carr is WRONG. He has made some STUPID plays. But he also has as much or more upside as ANYONE who gets SMASHED and poorly coached.

2 words people. STEVE YOUNG (and if that didn't make sense, you DO NOT know football and waste my on-line time).

Cheers!

Wolf
11-23-2005, 06:03 PM
my problem is Carr was handed the keys to the franchise early.. no competition what so ever... now where my problem is that when he was struggling..we left him in..I wish we would have put Banks and run our offense.. I would think it would do Carr wonders see someone else run the offense and make the reads..on GAME FILM ..no practice.

SESupergenius
11-23-2005, 06:09 PM
my problem is Carr was handed the keys to the franchise early.. no competition what so ever... now where my problem is that when he was struggling..we left him in..I wish we would have put Banks and run our offense.. I would think it would do Carr wonders see someone else run the offense and make the reads..on GAME FILM ..no practice.
I agree with that Wolf, similarily I am a proponent of having a QB sit a year to learn. But then again, all the shuffling on the offense line and slow implementation of the playbook hinders the QB anyways. What I dont' get is why there wasn't another QB in there to mop up at the end of the games to either a) protect carr b) give needed game time to a backup in case they are called upon. That is bad coaching.

Wolf
11-23-2005, 06:13 PM
I agree with that Wolf, similarily I am a proponent of having a QB sit a year to learn. But then again, all the shuffling on the offense line and slow implementation of the playbook hinders the QB anyways. What I dont' get is why there wasn't another QB in there to mop up at the end of the games to either a) protect carr b) give needed game time to a backup in case they are called upon. That is bad coaching.

on the flip side could you see what would happen if we benched our #1 pick overall ...we'd think Casserly was a fool on draft day... oh wait we already do :heh:

Bobo
11-23-2005, 06:28 PM
my problem is Carr was handed the keys to the franchise early.. no competition what so ever... now where my problem is that when he was struggling..we left him in..I wish we would have put Banks and run our offense.. I would think it would do Carr wonders see someone else run the offense and make the reads..on GAME FILM ..no practice.

Give me an ever lovin' break! Sitting Carr in so he can get tips from a guy who couldn't make it out of Dallas Cowboys preseason camp is NOT the answer!

WWJD
11-23-2005, 06:49 PM
GPShafer....YOU...are smart. My kind of fan. If you were here, I'd pour ya a brew!

Now to the rest of you football gurus, ditching carr is WRONG. He has made some STUPID plays. But he also has as much or more upside as ANYONE who gets SMASHED and poorly coached.

2 words people. STEVE YOUNG (and if that didn't make sense, you DO NOT know football and waste my on-line time).

Cheers!


I guess I'm wasting your online time then because I'll be the first to admit Steve Young and David Carr is not a comparison I've ever thought of.

HoustonFan
11-23-2005, 07:25 PM
I say keep Carr, get the upgrades needed on the O-line. Some new coaches that will be able to build on the strengths of the players and let's wait and see how the team progresses next season. IT DAMN SURE can't get any worse than this season.

Wolf
11-23-2005, 10:44 PM
Give me an ever lovin' break! Sitting Carr in so he can get tips from a guy who couldn't make it out of Dallas Cowboys preseason camp is NOT the answer!
oh and Carr is setting the league on fire?

CajunTexan
11-23-2005, 10:57 PM
It's hard to be critical of others when you can't do your job very well yourself.

Or, there is no need to defend yourself, whether your playing well or not, against a message board. Most knowledgable sports outlits i.e. the chronicle, 610, KHOU etc. etc. are not "bashing" Carr. The bashing he gets comes, mainly from the fans. Has any professional athlete felt a need to defend himself against public opinion???

Why doesn't McNair defend himself, why doesn't Capers defend himself, why doesn't Casserly defend himself??? Because our opinions do not mean jack except to ourselves.

Obviously, the organization, and more importantly his teammates, have enough confidense in Carr that he does not feel he has to defend himself.

Vinny
11-23-2005, 11:00 PM
I wasn't talking about anybody defending themselves. I just pointed out that if you are not performing at a high level it's hard to point a finger at others who aren't. That was an answer to others saying Carr should speak out more.

CajunTexan
11-23-2005, 11:03 PM
The team would be dumb not to kick in the 2 year option since it's going to take two full years to get this thing rebuilt. Carr is no longer a franchise QB and is just another QB trying to win a job next year, so we need to seek out another QB and have some HONEST competition for the most important job on the field. What would be really dumb is to resign him and tell the back up that he has no chance to start. Bring in another credible QB for cripes sakes. This is the only position on the team that doesn't have honest competition.

Out of the 5874 posts you have made, I think this is the first I have ever agreed with. OK, you got me, I really haven't read all of them but I digress.

Correct, even as a guy who believes Carr is the guy, in his fifth year, the job should not be handed to him. Much to the dismay of many on this board, Carr is the most talented QB on our roster and plays because Banks and Ragone (turn away if this hurts some of your eyes) ARE NOT UPGRADES!!!

Bring in Kitna, Leinart, Unitas, Elway Aikman, anyone you can get, and have an open competition! At this point, I really believe it will bring out the best in Carr.

WWJD
11-23-2005, 11:17 PM
Or, there is no need to defend yourself, whether your playing well or not, against a message board. Most knowledgable sports outlits i.e. the chronicle, 610, KHOU etc. etc. are not "bashing" Carr. The bashing he gets comes, mainly from the fans. Has any professional athlete felt a need to defend himself against public opinion???

Why doesn't McNair defend himself, why doesn't Capers defend himself, why doesn't Casserly defend himself??? Because our opinions do not mean jack except to ourselves.

Obviously, the organization, and more importantly his teammates, have enough confidense in Carr that he does not feel he has to defend himself.


I don't know about that...you must not listen to the postgame program on 610. Rich Lord and Matt were very down on David....let's just say he may have a show on that station but he has his detractors.

And one of the offensive lineman was asked who was the "leader" of the offense. He hemmed and hawed before naming one of his fellow lineman as the offensive leader.

And to me the players should worry about what the fans think above all else. The fans pay their multi-million dollar contracts.

I don't think for one minute there wasn't one single Texans player that didn't notice all the emptying seats last Sunday and hear the boos. If it doesn't bother them they're not worth the bother!

Hervoyel
11-23-2005, 11:53 PM
Much to the dismay of many on this board, Carr is the most talented QB on our roster and plays because Banks and Ragone (turn away if this hurts some of your eyes) ARE NOT UPGRADES!!!

I don't think this makes any sense whatsoever. Banks has started how many games for the Houston Texans? In 2003 he lost to the Colts when Carr went out with an injury, then he beat the Panthers, lost to the Bengals (the team scored 27 points that day), and beat the Bills. Finally, after a bye week he was knocked out of our 17-13 win over the Falcons.

I think what Tony Banks lacks in arm strength, accuracy, and sheer talent when compared to David Carr he more than makes up for with pocket presence and simple veteran "presence" for lack of a better term. During that streak he was beaten by Indy (Carr is 0-7 against them) and then narrowly missed leading Houston to it's first three game win streak. If we had even a semblance of a defense in 2003 (the year of the many injured defensive linemen) it would have easily been a 3 game win streak and that's not even counting the Atlanta game which admittedly Carr came in and bravely saved.

Tony Banks isn't even the best "journeyman" QB we could possibly find to start here and in the short time he played he looked better than David Carr.

More important than that the rest of the offense did something during that four game stretch that cannot be denied and that we've rarely seen since. They calmed down and played well. Prior to David Carr's shoulder injury that year the offense looked jittery and tense just like their leader. When Banks came in everything settled down and started working.

In 2002 Banks should have been our starter and that would have been totally understandable. In 2003 he was without a doubt an upgrade over David Carr and again that I could understand.
He'd better not be an upgrade over Carr in 2005 because if he is then why are we even discussing an $8 million bonus?

CajunTexan
11-24-2005, 12:04 AM
I don't think this makes any sense whatsoever. Banks has started how many games for the Houston Texans? In 2003 he lost to the Colts when Carr went out with an injury, then he beat the Panthers, lost to the Bengals (the team scored 27 points that day), and beat the Bills. Finally, after a bye week he was knocked out of our 17-13 win over the Falcons.

I think what Tony Banks lacks in arm strength, accuracy, and sheer talent when compared to David Carr he more than makes up for with pocket presence and simple veteran "presence" for lack of a better term. During that streak he was beaten by Indy (Carr is 0-7 against them) and then narrowly missed leading Houston to it's first three game win streak. If we had even a semblance of a defense in 2003 (the year of the many injured defensive linemen) it would have easily been a 3 game win streak and that's not even counting the Atlanta game which admittedly Carr came in and bravely saved.

Tony Banks isn't even the best "journeyman" QB we could possibly find to start here and in the short time he played he looked better than David Carr.

More important than that the rest of the offense did something during that four game stretch that cannot be denied and that we've rarely seen since. They calmed down and played well. Prior to David Carr's shoulder injury that year the offense looked jittery and tense just like their leader. When Banks came in everything settled down and started working.

In 2002 Banks should have been our starter and that would have been totally understandable. In 2003 he was without a doubt an upgrade over David Carr and again that I could understand.
He'd better not be an upgrade over Carr in 2005 because if he is then why are we even discussing an $8 million bonus?

You make good points about those 3-5 games that Tony did start, but I believe looking at what he has done over his entire career is a better assessment of whether he should be the starter. ( And not to be argumentitive, but if he had better "pocket presense" than anyone, little own Carr, would he be the career leader in fumbles by a QB?)

Like I said before, I am with Vinny (amazingly) on his take of sign Carr for the 2 years and still try and upgrade the position either through FA or the draft.

CajunTexan
11-24-2005, 12:09 AM
I don't know about that...you must not listen to the postgame program on 610. Rich Lord and Matt were very down on David....let's just say he may have a show on that station but he has his detractors.

And one of the offensive lineman was asked who was the "leader" of the offense. He hemmed and hawed before naming one of his fellow lineman as the offensive leader.

And to me the players should worry about what the fans think above all else. The fans pay their multi-million dollar contracts.

I don't think for one minute there wasn't one single Texans player that didn't notice all the emptying seats last Sunday and hear the boos. If it doesn't bother them they're not worth the bother!

I don't disagree that there are those who, as Mclain pointed out, thought Carr was the second coming of Elway who have now jumped of the bandwagon, but as a whole, IMO, the majority of the negative noice pointed at Carr comes from the fans.

I agree that athletes SHOULD care what the fans think, and yes they probably noticed the empty seats, but they still rallied around each other, glad that they all fought together, and all picked up their pay checks together.

Hervoyel
11-24-2005, 12:18 AM
I also think that singing Carr to the two year deal is a good idea. I'm still hoping that we didn't make a mistake and that another Coach and staff can turn this thing around (and turn David Carr's career around as well).

That doesn't mean that he shouldn't have to beat Tony Banks out of the starting spot to get it. He should have had to do that from day one but I don't think the coaches ever really allowed that competition to take place. Tony was signed to be the backup and he understood that.

Tony Banks entire career? He's not the career leader in fumbles by a QB by the way. Depending on the circumstances that would be either.....

Warren Moon has the career record with 161 followed by Dave Kreig and John Elway with 153 and 137 respectively. Kreig had tiny hands and this was always a problem for him.

Kerry Collins holds the record for a single season with 23 and Daunte Culpepper is tied with him for that. Next in line is Tony Banks with 21. Interesting that there is a tie here too. David Carr matched that feat in 2002

In a game the honor goes to Len Dawson who fumbled it 7 times against San Diego back in 1964. After Dawson comes Sam Etcheverry, Dave Krieg, Brett Favre, and Kurt Warner with 6 each.

CajunTexan
11-24-2005, 12:27 AM
I also think that singing Carr to the two year deal is a good idea. I'm still hoping that we didn't make a mistake and that another Coach and staff can turn this thing around (and turn David Carr's career around as well).

That doesn't mean that he shouldn't have to beat Tony Banks out of the starting spot to get it. He should have had to do that from day one but I don't think the coaches ever really allowed that competition to take place. Tony was signed to be the backup and he understood that.

Tony Banks entire career? He's not the career leader in fumbles by a QB by the way. Depending on the circumstances that would be either.....

Warren Moon has the career record with 161 followed by Dave Kreig and John Elway with 153 and 137 respectively. Kreig had tiny hands and this was always a problem for him.

Kerry Collins holds the record for a single season with 23 and Daunte Culpepper is tied with him for that. Next in line is Tony Banks with 21. Interesting that there is a tie here too. David Carr matched that feat in 2002

In a game the honor goes to Len Dawson who fumbled it 7 times against San Diego back in 1964. After Dawson comes Sam Etcheverry, Dave Krieg, Brett Favre, and Kurt Warner with 5 each.

Excellent job of debunking my "perception" of Banks and his fumble problems, although no other facts or stats from Tony's career to support him being a capable starter. Honestly, more telling is the fact he has been a FA twice (I think) since he has been a Texan, and no one has thought enough of him to bring him to camp to compete with their guy for a starting job.

If Tony is the best "upgrade" the Texans can get, then let him compete. IMO, there could be other options.

Hervoyel
11-24-2005, 12:43 AM
Excellent job of debunking my "perception" of Banks and his fumble problems, although no other facts or stats from Tony's career to support him being a capable starter. Honestly, more telling is the fact he has been a FA twice (I think) since he has been a Texan, and no one has thought enough of him to bring him to camp to compete with their guy for a starting job.

If Tony is the best "upgrade" the Texans can get, then let him compete. IMO, there could be other options.

I said that. Tony isn't even the best "Journeyman" QB we could find. He's just the one we signed back in 2002 and he's since been good with riding the pine. I don't know what that says about his "competitive side" but I do know that in 1999 he started 10 games for the Ravens and they won 8 that year. In 2000 he started 8 games for them and they won a total of 12 that year. Sure they had an amazing defense and all Tony Banks was asked to do those years was play within his abilities and not make mistakes. He wasn't brilliant but he was better than David Carr has ever been.

In 2001 he went to Washington and won 8 games there. Has David Carr ever won 8 games? Banks should have been Carr's first hurdle in the NFL and if the coaches had done the obvious then David Carr would have about a hundred fewer sacks on his odometer along with a couple of hundred fewer hits.

CajunTexan
11-24-2005, 12:55 AM
"He wasn't brilliant but he was better than David Carr has ever been." Quote

Really? OK, so Carr only won 7 games last year, not 8. He did throw for 3500 yards 16 touchdowns and an 83 passer rating. I know earlier in this thread, at least I think it was this thread, you posted on how these are mediocre numbers. Just asking, because I do not know, but has Tony ever posted better numbers, as a whole, in a 16 game season?

Hervoyel
11-24-2005, 01:34 AM
"He wasn't brilliant but he was better than David Carr has ever been." Quote

Really? OK, so Carr only won 7 games last year, not 8. He did throw for 3500 yards 16 touchdowns and an 83 passer rating. I know earlier in this thread, at least I think it was this thread, you posted on how these are mediocre numbers. Just asking, because I do not know, but has Tony ever posted better numbers, as a whole, in a 16 game season?

I suspect you already know the answer to that question CajunTexan but for the record and those who don't feel like looking this junk up the answer is no, Tony Banks has not every posted better numbers than that (3500 yards and an 83 passer rating) in a 16 game season. The closest he's ever come to those yards was in 1997 with the Rams. Playing the majority of a 16 game season in 1999 he had a passer rating of 81.2 but most of his career he's bounced between the high 60's and the mid 70's.

We can talk stats back and forth forever but guys have led teams to the Super Bowl without an 83 passer rating and 3500 yards. Great stats don't always translate into a player being the guy for the job or the moment. Sometimes guys have good seasons statistically but they aren't going anywhere. That's David Carr in 2004. We didn't know that then but there it is.

I've already stated that David Carr has more talent than Tony Banks. I'm only saying that Banks was a more than adequat veteran QB for the Texans to start in 2002 and that David should have been required to beat him out of a job before he got to start. Instead David won that competition the way Victor Riley won the LT spot this year. He was handed it.

I think in 2002 Banks was a better QB than David Carr.

I think in 2003 he was a better QB than David Carr.

I think in 2004 David Carr should have been ready to sit Banks down. He played well and while he had a good year statistically just imagine what might have been if he hadn't already been planted 100+ times.

This year? Well this year kind of speaks for itself doesn't it.

Malloy
11-24-2005, 04:37 AM
What really irks me here is that a true leader would have told the coaches to get a clue a long time ago. Carr could have said, "I am the face of the franchise and you are not utilizing my strengths." Which begs the question has the bonus been communicated to him a long time ago? Is there an assurance that he will be placed as starting QB for the next 2 to 3 years? It reeks of blind loyalty and future salary cap H-E-double toothpick.

I find it odd that someone would take a beating for four years and go through this type of season without saying a word. As a former competitor I would never have allowed this to happen without making a stand for myself and the direction of the team that I lead.

I have a feeling that both coaches and players have been told of changes in the coaching staff from next year. That at least would explain why Carr, seemingly, has not been more outspoken towards his coaches(which, for all I know, he has been).

aj.
11-24-2005, 08:09 AM
McClain starts the article by saying:

"For all those who want to boot quarterback David Carr out of town after the season with a swift kick in the backside, what did you think about him last season after the Texans won late December road games at Chicago and Jacksonville to elevate their record to 7-8? The Texans defeated the Bears and Jaguars by a combined score of 45-5"

As if Carr was instrumental in those victories? Bah.

What did I think about him last season after the Jacksonville game? Well, with only 139 yards passing, 4 sacks, 2, ints, and only a 66.5 rating, I think he sucked. It was the Texans running game (200 something yds) and the defense that won that game, holding the Jags to 6 first downs, 126 total yards and forced 3 turnovers. Carr in that game looked a lot like he still does.

Carr's performance in the Chicago game was better, maybe even 'good' considering the elements that day, but consider the opponent - a defense without Urlacher and a putrid offense behind Hutchinson - and I think you will find as many or more contributors to the Texans victory as you would the Texans QB's performance.

Vinny
11-24-2005, 11:09 AM
McClain starts the article by saying:

"For all those who want to boot quarterback David Carr out of town after the season with a swift kick in the backside, what did you think about him last season after the Texans won late December road games at Chicago and Jacksonville to elevate their record to 7-8? The Texans defeated the Bears and Jaguars by a combined score of 45-5"

As if Carr was instrumental in those victories? Bah.

What did I think about him last season after the Jacksonville game? Well, with only 139 yards passing, 4 sacks, 2, ints, and only a 66.5 rating, I think he sucked. It was the Texans running game (200 something yds) and the defense that won that game, holding the Jags to 6 first downs, 126 total yards and forced 3 turnovers. Carr in that game looked a lot like he still does.

Carr's performance in the Chicago game was better, maybe even 'good' considering the elements that day, but consider the opponent - a defense without Urlacher and a putrid offense behind Hutchinson - and I think you will find as many or more contributors to the Texans victory as you would the Texans QB's performance. McClain does his best work when he is passing on someone else's insight from his pool of NFL connections. Does anyone know when they stated calling him "the General". Wth did that come from?

aj.
11-24-2005, 12:44 PM
The team would be dumb not to kick in the 2 year option since it's going to take two full years to get this thing rebuilt. Carr is no longer a franchise QB and is just another QB trying to win a job next year, so we need to seek out another QB and have some HONEST competition for the most important job on the field. What would be really dumb is to resign him and tell the back up that he has no chance to start. Bring in another credible QB for cripes sakes. This is the only position on the team that doesn't have honest competition.

All good in theory but you don't pay "just another QB" a $5.5 or $8 mill bonus and take a $7-$8 mil cap hit per year on a guy who will simply be 'competing' for the starting job. By giving Carr the extension, they are in essence telling him that the starting job is his. The only way Carr could be brought back to compete for his job would be if he was released and brought back at a lower salary which won't happen. The only way you get fair and open competition here would be to sign (for example- if they were available) guys like Kitna, Frerotte, and Holcomb for a couple mill a year and bring them in and let them fight it out with Banks, Ragone or some other rook or inexperienced QB if we had one.

Vinny
11-24-2005, 12:48 PM
We could draft a guy like Cutler in the second round. It will take him 1-2 years to develop, and by that time Carr is done with his contract and we will have given him plenty of time. We need someone closer to Schaub (to groom) behind Carr than Ragone. Until Carr proves otherwise he is no better than Kitna, Frerotte, and Holcomb.

wags
11-24-2005, 12:52 PM
And one of the offensive lineman was asked who was the "leader" of the offense. He hemmed and hawed before naming one of his fellow lineman as the offensive leader.

Please don't tell me you're referring to the Pittman quote. The dude is a long-snapper. I could care less what that guy has to say. Maybe if I get a splinter in my butt, then I will value his opinion on how to get it out.

Sharper called Carr the leader of the offense, but what does he know over Pittman.

Vinny
11-24-2005, 12:55 PM
Please don't tell me you're referring to the Pittman quote. The dude is a long-snapper. I could care less what that guy has to say. Maybe if I get a splinter in my butt, then I will value his opinion on how to get it out.

Sharper called Carr the leader of the offense, but what does he know over Pittman. What does a man's position have to do with his ability to form an opinion? I don't put too much into that quote either btw - people make too much of quips like this.

wags
11-24-2005, 01:01 PM
Tell me exactly how much time Pittman has actually spent in the huddle with Carr? So what does he base his opinion on, because it certainly ain't his in the huddle-on the field experience with Carr.

He can form his opinion, but I wouldn't put any stock into it. Unless of course he's talking about...

Vinny
11-24-2005, 01:02 PM
Tell me exactly how much time Pittman has actually spent in the huddle with Carr? So what does he base his opinion on, because it certainly ain't his in the huddle-on the field experience with Carr.

He can form his opinion, but I wouldn't put any stock into it. Unless of course he's talking about...Sharper was in the huddle with Carr less than Pittman dood....Sharper plays defense!

WWJD
11-24-2005, 01:05 PM
I don't know who said it...I heard them talking about it on 610. A caller brought it up thinking it strange.

If you don't think his opinion is valid fine.

wags
11-24-2005, 01:08 PM
Sharper was in the huddle with Carr less that Pittman dood....Sharper plays defense!


Really this is silly. Sharper's opinion> Pittman's opinion.

That's really all there is to it.

Vinny
11-24-2005, 01:10 PM
Really this is silly. Sharper's opinion> Pittman's opinion.

That's really all there is to it.The only thing silly is that you determine that one human being is superior to another due to the position they play on a football field. Then you say it's because Sharper is in the huddle more with Carr. Now that was silly.

:tv:

Malloy
11-24-2005, 01:20 PM
Really this is silly. Sharper's opinion> Pittman's opinion.

That's really all there is to it.

your argumentive logic is stunning...

wags
11-24-2005, 01:20 PM
The only thing silly is that you determine that one human being is superior to another due to the position they play on a football field. Then you say it's because Sharper is in the huddle more with Carr. Now that was silly.

:tv:


Wow. I didn't say either of those. Show me where I say Sharper is a superior human being. Those words. While you're at it show me where I say that Sharper is superior because he spends more time in the huddle with Carr.

WWJD
11-24-2005, 01:28 PM
I'm sorry I even brought it up.

My point was only that a teammate didn't consider David a leader. I admit I don't know who said it..I heard the conversation several weeks ago on 610 when a caller asked about it.

I don't know how many minutes he spends with David in the huddle, in the lockerroom or on the bench. He's a teammate. I would think he'd have some clue about what's going on with the team. If you don't think so fine.

Erratic Assassin
11-24-2005, 05:05 PM
As much as I like Carr, it may be the best for all concerned (including Carr) that he leave.

You can't build a house without a solid foundation and that is exactly what Charlie Casserly did. We should have never drafted a QB until we had a solid offensive line in place. Carr was never put in a position to win like Ben Rothlesberger was.

Casserly's stupidity has stunted Carr's growth. The only thing Carr has learned in 4 years is how to run for his life. Letting Carr go is not a slap in his face. We should let him go with our sincerest apologies for wasting 4 years of his career.

I have no idea if Carr will be a great QB or not, but I do know that he never had a real chance. We are years away from being a decent team. Let Carr go before he picks up more bad habits or further reinforces the bad habits he's already picked up.

Vinny
11-24-2005, 05:15 PM
Carr has been making the same mistakes for 4 years. Perhaps he just isn't as good as everyone wanted him to be. I don't see a guy who has regressed...I see a guy no better than he was when he was drafted.

Kaiser Toro
11-24-2005, 05:31 PM
It appears that Carr was more a product of a good college system much like Spurrier's QB's and WR's. Unfortunatey, collegiate success does not always transfer to professional success, in these systems. The game is awfully different once you get out of your comfort zone. And this is not a shot at schools who play in a non BS conference.

Goldeagle
11-24-2005, 10:28 PM
I'm torn on the whole paying the bonus or not.

On the one hand if you pay him it's almost as though you're rewarding him in some weird way for playing very poorly.

On the other hand if you don't he goes elsewhere and could possibly be a good QB for another team. There is no doubt in my mind somebody would pick him up.

I just don't know.

Rich Lord of 610 says it's a done deal though and David will get his bonus.


But the guy has played poorly because he is on a poor team. More sacks than anyone in history. More perfact passes dropped than anyone in the last 3 years, and pathetic anemic, typical and usual play calling by the coaching staff.

I stand by Carr and unfortunatly all of us seem to have known that we need on O-Line, to bad Casserly could not figure that out. As many ESPN guys and various coaches have said about Carr, "We dont know if he is good. It looks like he would be good and that he has talent, but we dont know. Anyone in his situation would be doing exactly what he is doing now."

WWJD
11-24-2005, 11:19 PM
I'm going to wait for the rest of the games and see how David does...I'm torn right now about him getting his bonus.

But you know it's not my decision...so what I think doesn't matter.

HoustonFan
11-24-2005, 11:47 PM
I
...Banks was a more than adequat veteran QB for the Texans to start in 2002 and that David should have been required to beat him out of a job before he got to start. Instead David won that competition the way Victor Riley won the LT spot this year. He was handed it.

I think in 2002 Banks was a better QB than David Carr.

I think in 2003 he was a better QB than David Carr.

I think in 2004 David Carr should have been ready to sit Banks down. He played well and while he had a good year statistically just imagine what might have been if he hadn't already been planted 100+ times.

This year? Well this year kind of speaks for itself doesn't it.

I never thought about that. Banks definitely had the experience in the league at the time. And it would have been grooming time for Carr. Hindsight is always 20/20 though, b/c I'm sure none of us pictured the season turning out like this after last season. I'm a Carr supporter however, I do think that he should have been benched a couple of times this season reminding him of the competition - I even think Ragone has potential. Maybe things might be different right about now - record wise.

Malloy
11-25-2005, 02:28 AM
What't the chance (any prior examples) of Mcnair redoing the contract for Carr without the bonus?. Result-wise it would be defendable but morally... oh well.. :)

Nighthawk
11-25-2005, 03:58 AM
We could draft a guy like Cutler in the second round. It will take him 1-2 years to develop, and by that time Carr is done with his contract and we will have given him plenty of time. We need someone closer to Schaub (to groom) behind Carr than Ragone. Until Carr proves otherwise he is no better than Kitna, Frerotte, and Holcomb.

Call me crazy and a hater, but i'd rewrite the last sentence to read "Until Carr proves otherwise he is not as good as Kitna, Frerotte, and Holcomb."

El Tejano
11-25-2005, 09:53 AM
The team would be dumb not to kick in the 2 year option since it's going to take two full years to get this thing rebuilt. Carr is no longer a franchise QB and is just another QB trying to win a job next year, so we need to seek out another QB and have some HONEST competition for the most important job on the field. What would be really dumb is to resign him and tell the back up that he has no chance to start. Bring in another credible QB for cripes sakes. This is the only position on the team that doesn't have honest competition.

I agree. I thought all along even before the season started that if Carr didn't break out this year, another credible starting QB needed to be brought in to allow Carr to look over his shoulder now. It does wonders for the team since they will all see Carr have to go and earn his cash like the rest of them and it allows us to put the best players available to win a football game. That is when we will see if Carr is our man or not, plus he will get to look and learn from a credible veteran, not Tony Banks.

Vinny
11-25-2005, 10:57 AM
What't the chance (any prior examples) of Mcnair redoing the contract for Carr without the bonus?. Result-wise it would be defendable but morally... oh well.. :)Carr doesn't have to sign anything that isn't the original deal. This is the Texans option, so if we choose to keep him he has no say in it. If anything is altered then Carr would have to accept the alteration. Morals has nothing to do with it.

Malloy
11-25-2005, 11:07 AM
Carr doesn't have to sign anything that isn't the original deal. This is the Texans option, so if we choose to keep him he has no say in it. If anything is altered then Carr would have to accept the alteration. Morals has nothing to do with it.

So if we chose to offer him 2mil bonus instead of the 8, he would have the option of accepting it or, leaving.

What are the chances of this happening?

Vinny
11-25-2005, 11:13 AM
Offering him 2 mil isn't the deal. We either kick in the existing terms of the contract or he is free to negotiate as a FA. Offering him 2 mil is a deviation of that deal so yes...he doesn't have to take anything that isn't the original deal. He has no say in it if we just accept the clause.

Malloy
11-25-2005, 11:28 AM
Ok, that's what I thought too. So, in theory at least, we might end up with Carr for a lower price, provided we tell him to forget about the 8mil but offer him a less attractive contract. Oh well, we'll prolly know after a new HC is announced.

nunusguy
11-25-2005, 11:32 AM
Maybe the legal guys on the Board would want to comment, but its my understanding that virtually any contracted can be amended as long as
the parties to the contract mutually agree.

Vinny
11-25-2005, 11:55 AM
Maybe the legal guys on the Board would want to comment, but its my understanding that virtually any contracted can be amended as long as
the parties to the contract mutually agree.That's pretty much what I said. Carr would have to accept any altered deal, otherwise the option is the Texans to enact or not enact. Carr has to take the deal if it is not altered, he has no choice in that.

HJam72
11-25-2005, 01:47 PM
I think he should leave, even if he has to take less money--whenever that actually becomes possible. This team has made a joke of him and allowed him to be beaten to death. Maybe he's no good anyway, or maybe he is. Who knows?

Ibar_Harry
11-25-2005, 02:54 PM
It is real funny to see McClain now spouting what a number of us have been saying for a long time.

To begin with the 1st mistake made by the organization - probably in this case Casserly - was to hire Capers not realizing how inflexible he was to various aspects of the game. He was hired because he was organized, he was considered a very good guy and a role model, and he was considered to be one of the better defensive coaches around.

Then Palmer was brought into the picture and his views were very much different from Capers, but people simply didn't realize it at the time.

Then they went and picked available players from other teams to play for the new team called the Texans and knowing who their 1st round pick was going to be. They picked a vertern aged defensive group with the hope for LT of Boselli. The key to this once again was an aged defensive group. Little thought was given to offense, because they were going to pick up FA's and use the draft for their offensve figuring that defense would carry the day and the offense could be developed.

When it came draft day of course I believe their number 1 pick was going to be either Carr or Harrington and Casserly had been following David for a long time and probably felt Carr fit the mold of the Texans better than any other offensive player on the board. He was a very decent young man with a lot of character who could throw the ball very well. He was thought to be an excellent candidate to become one of the better QB's in the league. However, he did not fit the mold of the type of game Capers wanted to play. David was a passer with outstanding strength in his arm, but not known for handing off the ball. Capers on the other hand wanted a ball control offense. That was not David's forte. The Texans had not drafted a fit that was comfortible for Capers.

Things began to fall apart when it was found that Mr. B was not going to be available the 1st year. However, with a young spirited group and Mr. B leading the charge on the sidelines we seemed to perform the impossible feat and beat Dallas on the opening day. To this date that might have been our best game although we certainly have a couple of others that could push that envelope. We had a spirited 1st year and I believe that Mr. B was a big part of that while he was on the sidelines and our vertern defensive group had spirit and were playing up to their potential. At the end of the 1st year all of us were looking forward to year 2 and the upcoming 2nd draft. The draft came and we were all excited about year 2. In year 2 we drafted Wand and we picked up Brown, but they still had hopes for Mr. B up to the end.

Year 2 was the beginning of the down fall of the Texans. We suffered an almost extraordinary number of injuries and many of those were to our aged vetern defensive players and Mr B was no longer roaming the side lines. We saw us playing very conservatively with a QB who could throw the ball, but basically wasn't given the option or the time to do it. Carr had some injury problems himself, but the number of sacks were going down and DD had had an outstanding year and we thought year 3 might be the beginning of something good.

However, in the off season Capers and Pendry began to plan the shift to the Zone blocking scheme. We didn't have the personnel to do it and it went away from the stength of the QB. We began to see a transtition into what we are not. However, the worst part of this 3rd year draft was that they were now having to some how repair an aged defensive staff who had not recovered fully from the prior years injuries. We simply floundered in year 3 and were told by McNair that year 4 would be different, because David would be protected. Year 4 came along and they drafted defensively in the higher order of the draft, because that's Capers' comfort zone. Actually, we probably procurred a player who may be the talk of the league before he's through with football. That player is Mathis. We got rid of vertern players who were catching on to the Capers problem and everything began to fall apart, because the vetern defense fell apart and that was the end of the plan.

Again who have we drafted who most would consider keepers -

AJ
DD
Carr
Mathis
DRob
Gaffny
PITTS

The majority of these people are offenisve in nature with a defensive minded coach with an aged group of veterns who were falling by the way side due to injury. Did the coach elevate his offensive team and try to compensate. No, he became more conservative. This was a team doomed to failure from the start simply because the key coaches - Pendry and Capers - were incapable of adapting to what they had and made things worse rather than better by what they did. I have stead fastly stated that the year 2 injuries this ball club suffered were the nail in the coffen as far as Capers was concerned. He has never recovered from that season and never will. The so called 5 year plan, if it exsisted, went out the door with those injuries.

I still say Casserly has done his job and drafted reasonably well given the directions of his coaching staff. It is the failure of the coaching staff, however, to develop what we have. You see this well when other teams suffer injuries and someone comes on to replace the downed player. It doesn't always happen, but it seldom ever happens with the Texans.

After the 1st game of the season, McNair should have known he had been misinformed - I could make a stronger statement - about what had transpired to fix the O-line. They should have been fired at the end of game 1 or 2 and said its time to go in another direction. I say that simply because most coaches know that no one is normally fired during the season. The coaches felt safe for the rest of the season and that was not good for the team.

Perhaps the most damning thing you can say, however, about this coaching staff is that they simply did not play to the strengths of their players. Carr is anything but a ball control QB. PBuc is certainly not adapting to our defensive system what ever that is. TJ is there, but is certainly not a number 1 impact player, AJ has been ineffective to say the least. Gaffny quite frankly has suprised me and I was dead wrong on him this year. The O-line has been a blooming mess and the Defense is atroucious. The one bright spot has been Marciano and Mathis doing their thing. Its funny how people are just now catching on to this. What I'm saying is yes I'm defensive of Carr, but also everyone else on this ball club. I have stead fastly stated to evaluate any player on this ball club based on the coaching they have received is pointless. People have been made to play in a way that is extemely nonproductive and stupid. Get rid of the coaches and get a competent group of coaches. They may have to conclude that some players have been so damaged by this regime that they simply can't be rehabilitated. That is indeed a sorry state of afairs.

CajunTexan
11-25-2005, 07:07 PM
That's pretty much what I said. Carr would have to accept any altered deal, otherwise the option is the Texans to enact or not enact. Carr has to take the deal if it is not altered, he has no choice in that.

What were the "performance incentives" that Carr reached that voided the remainder of his contract and set up this 8 million/ 5.5 million bonus deal?

It seems to me, that the organization can't really complain. Carr meet the incentives, now they have to pay, if they want to keep him.

HJam72
11-25-2005, 08:36 PM
It was probably so many games with less than x number of interceptions, lol, so he's been throwing the ball away for 4 years, while the coaching staff has been applauding this action and asking for more. Then again, he and AJ did hook up pretty well the first half of last year and that could be a lot of it.

aj.
11-26-2005, 10:02 AM
Like I said earlier, a team doesn't usually give a $5.5 million bonus and a $5-$6 mill per year base, i.e., a $7 - $8 mill per year cap hit for "just another quarterback." By giving Carr even the two year option, they are essentially handing him the keys for at least another 1 1/2 seasons, although there is the implied challenge of the two year deal vs. the three year deal. There is also a strong message sent (as opposed to 'open competition') - in '06, if the Texans would draft another QB early in '06 after executing the two year deal.

bckey
11-26-2005, 11:07 AM
I don't know if we can afford to draft another QB early in 06 unless we trade down a little in the first and pick up a few more picks. We have quite a few holes to fill. Besides, signing a veteran QB in the offseason would bring in immediate competition for the job as opposed to drafting a rookie that probably couldn't push Carr right away. The latter option will let a new coaching staff see what they have faster.

tsip
11-26-2005, 11:32 AM
Like I said earlier, a team doesn't usually give a $5.5 million bonus and a $5-$6 mill per year base, i.e., a $7 - $8 mill per year cap hit for "just another quarterback." By giving Carr even the two year option, they are essentially handing him the keys for at least another 1 1/2 seasons, although there is the implied challenge of the two year deal vs. the three year deal. There is also a strong message sent (as opposed to 'open competition') - in '06, if the Texans would draft another QB early in '06 after executing the two year deal.

...AJ, are you still doing 'Voice of the Fan?'

Vinny
11-26-2005, 12:37 PM
I will remember you said that. So what? You are a big Carr fan and it doesn't bother me. I'm more of a Texans fan than a fan who worships any of the players, but that seems to bother you since you are not of the same mind. I've said over and over that Carr may be a late bloomer...but right now he is just another QB who has to prove himself.

Vinny
11-26-2005, 12:45 PM
Like I said earlier, a team doesn't usually give a $5.5 million bonus and a $5-$6 mill per year base, i.e., a $7 - $8 mill per year cap hit for "just another quarterback." By giving Carr even the two year option, they are essentially handing him the keys for at least another 1 1/2 seasons, although there is the implied challenge of the two year deal vs. the three year deal. There is also a strong message sent (as opposed to 'open competition') - in '06, if the Texans would draft another QB early in '06 after executing the two year deal.Sure, but this is just an extension of his original contract. The alternative is to bring in a guy with as many question marks, so this goes under the 'no-brainer' category for me. It's not a good situation for anyone but Carr really. He gets all his money, we take another Franchise QB type cap hit and we still don't know if he has what it takes (I’ll hold the coaches responsible for that one). I still think we do something to bring in open competition. This deal where you hand a guy the job and tell his back up you don’t have a shot at the job has to go away.

tsip
11-26-2005, 01:00 PM
Sure, but this is just an extension of his original contract. The alternative is to bring in a guy with as many question marks, so this goes under the 'no-brainer' category for me. It's not a good situation for anyone but Carr really. He gets all his money, we take another Franchise QB type cap hit and we still don't know if he has what it takes (Iíll hold the coaches responsible for that one). I still think we do something to bring in open competition. This deal where you hand a guy the job and tell his back up you donít have a shot at the job has to go away.

...exactly right!! Competition cures a lot of ills, especially for a rookie---IMO, Carr should have had a mentor or at least a very good QB coach--everyone knows that Carr's ability and Capers offensive philosophy were a mismatch from the get go, so now--more than ever--if the Texans are going to keep Carr they've got to get him off the 'island' and do whatever it takes to make him part of the solution. Vinny, you and several others have pointed out what I think is one of the biggest failures of this Capers coached team---after 4 years, we do not know if Carr is the part of the problem or can even be part of the solution to win...