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View Full Version : Pat Kirwan on Carr's Situation


tacoman_j
11-21-2005, 09:45 PM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/9055466

Good synopsis on Carr's contract situation

Kaiser Toro
11-21-2005, 09:55 PM
Best thing I have read on the subject to date. Nice catch tacoman.

Wharton
11-21-2005, 10:19 PM
Right on the money!

nunusguy
11-21-2005, 10:26 PM
"Then the Texans have until Feb. 19 to pick up the option bonus to keep him. "
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If that information in this article is accurate, the date is different that what I've read up to now which is the Texans have to pick up Carr's option by the
end of the regular season, which would be about the end of the calendar year. This story therefor gives them 6 weeks more to pick up that option if they to choose to so.

Kaiser Toro
11-21-2005, 10:38 PM
Maybe the end of the season is defined by the Super Bowl or Pro Bowl.

ArlingtonTexan
11-21-2005, 10:50 PM
"Then the Texans have until Feb. 19 to pick up the option bonus to keep him. "
********************************
If that information in this article is accurate, the date is different that what I've read up to now which is the Texans have to pick up Carr's option by the
end of the regular season, which would be about the end of the calendar year. This story therefor gives them 6 weeks more to pick up that option if they to choose to so.

this would mean that a new coach and/or GM would have imput on the decision.

SESupergenius
11-21-2005, 11:36 PM
The official end of the season is usually in Feb.

Wharton
11-22-2005, 12:09 AM
this would mean that a new coach and/or GM would have imput on the decision.

Looks like it. And, that is the best news I've heard in a coons age!

I have stated that the next coach/gm should make the decision on DC in several posts and I still believe it. If the Texans have until Feb. 19, there should be enough time to make a hire.

bckey
11-22-2005, 01:58 AM
Great article. I am with Pat Kirwan on this one. Put a transition tag on Carr and let him test the market.

Lucky
11-22-2005, 09:40 AM
If that information in this article is accurate, the date is different that what I've read up to now which is the Texans have to pick up Carr's option by the
end of the regular season...
I don't think this is accurate. Casserly said last Friday that Carr's bonus would have to paid prior to the SF game for the option to kick in. Casserly has seen the contract and Kirwan has not. I'm going to believe Casserly.

If the Texans do not pickup the option, they could still re-sign Carr to a new contract prior to the free agency period. Of course, other teams would be in the mix to sign Carr then. The transistion tag number will likely go up due to Manning, Brady, and Vick's contracts increasing in value. Not likely that the average top ten QB contracts would be less than the $7.25 million cap hit Carr would have if the bonus is handed out in '05 and spread across 4 years rather than 3. And it's unlikley that Carr wouldn't come back will a contract that was designed to make it difficult for the Texans to match. Then, the Texans lose Carr without compensation. How many players can this team afford to lose without compensation?

Kirwan didn't mention another option, and that would re-negotiating an entirely new contract prior to the end of the season. Giving Carr a longer term contract, a two-tiered option, and lower base salaries would allow the Texans to be more aggressive in free agency next year.

Fact is Kirwan isn't advocating dumping Carr. Looking at the Texans options,(1) drafting Leinart and giving him a $25 million bonus, (2) trading the 1st pick for the unknown Phillip Rivers, (3) signing Josh McCown. Those aren't attractive alternatives. Yeah, the Texans need to look at all of their options as far as the contract is concerned, but they aren't dumping Carr.

Corrosion
11-22-2005, 10:29 AM
Carr is the highest-paid Texans player with a salary of $5.5 million and there isn't a player within $2 million of his salary.


I think this statement from the article is very telling of the talent or lack there-of on this team .

Vinny
11-22-2005, 10:30 AM
I think this statement from the article is very telling of the talent or lack there-of on this team .I think it's more telling that Carr is ridiculously over paid for what he brings to the table.

Almost Anybody
11-22-2005, 10:41 AM
Where is it written in stone that we have to take a Leinart or Young with the 1st pick if we do the right thing and tell Carr to take a hike?

Just hand the ball to Ragone or whoever, and start the job rebuilding this team. It's not as if we're going to be playoff bound anytime soon.

Blake
11-22-2005, 11:21 AM
I have to admit, that this sounds like a perfect situation for the transition tag. Carr gets street value, and not #1 overall pick value. If we want to match an offer from another team, which i doubt would be very high, we can. But if we let him go, we get compensation for the lost player.

Sounds like a win win to me.

Frills
11-22-2005, 11:23 AM
I can just imagine what the Jets would pay a durable QB atm.

cadahnic
11-22-2005, 11:30 AM
I know that Capers and Casserly are gone at the end of the season so sit back and relax enjoy the rest of the season.

infantrycak
11-22-2005, 11:43 AM
I have to admit, that this sounds like a perfect situation for the transition tag. Carr gets street value, and not #1 overall pick value. If we want to match an offer from another team, which i doubt would be very high, we can. But if we let him go, we get compensation for the lost player.

Sounds like a win win to me.

The only problem with the transition tag is it let's cap games into the equation. A team like Philly or San Diego with $20 mil in cap space could sign Carr to a 3 year league minimum deal with an $8 mil roster bonus instead of signing bonus offer sheet. That would be one third the money in Carr's current 3 year option, but virtually the entire cap hit would go on 2006. That could be all or the vast majority of the Texans' cap space next year so then even though the contract is way, way cheaper (less than $3 mil per year instead of $8 mil) it becomes a poison pill. It still may be the best plan, but it certainly is not without pitfalls.

Blake
11-22-2005, 12:07 PM
The only problem with the transition tag is it let's cap games into the equation. A team like Philly or San Diego with $20 mil in cap space could sign Carr to a 3 year league minimum deal with an $8 mil roster bonus instead of signing bonus offer sheet. That would be one third the money in Carr's current 3 year option, but virtually the entire cap hit would go on 2006. That could be all or the vast majority of the Texans' cap space next year so then even though the contract is way, way cheaper (less than $3 mil per year instead of $8 mil) it becomes a poison pill. It still may be the best plan, but it certainly is not without pitfalls.

Good point. But even if we do "lose" Carr, you still get value for him in the form of draft picks.

I would like to keep Carr, but not for the current price, or any "poison pill" plans.

We can make our offer. Something that benefits both sides, and then see what the other teams offer. if its out of our leage, let him go, and draft Jay Cutler, or Omar Jacobs in the 2nd.

Win win

bigcarlos
11-22-2005, 12:11 PM
Pretty good article

yaboycm
11-22-2005, 12:13 PM
WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL YEAR. I guess it takes someone on the national level for you guys to think this.

Lucky
11-22-2005, 12:19 PM
Good point. But even if we do "lose" Carr, you still get value for him in the form of draft picks

Maybe not. Here's a NFL.com link that sort of explains the compensatory draft picks.

NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/8316981)
Under terms of the NFL Collective Bargaining Agreement, a team losing more or better compensatory free agents than it acquires in a year is eligible to receive compensatory draft picks.

The number of picks a team receives equals the net loss of compensatory free agents up to a maximum of four.

Compensatory free agents are determined by a formula based on salary, playing time and postseason honors. The formula was developed by the NFL Management Council. Not every free agent lost or signed by a club is covered by this formula.

So if the Texans sign more FA's than they lose (a real possibility), they would receive nothing for losing Carr. And if the Texans did lose more FA's than they signed, the highest draft pick a team can get is at the bottom of the 3rd round. I wouldn't call that "value". Casserly got more than that for Drew Henson.

infantrycak
11-22-2005, 12:56 PM
Good point. But even if we do "lose" Carr, you still get value for him in the form of draft picks.

Lucky covered compensatories. Just to be sure, I'll add--the transition tag does not carry any picks like the franchise tag does. It only provides an option to meet any offer sheet.

TexAntagonise
11-22-2005, 01:52 PM
There will be some interest in Carr if the Texans do not extend his contract. What the other teams are willing to pay will be at issue. I'm sure Dennis Green will be in the market for a QB. His job could be on the line, if the team does not improve next season. I'm also sure the Bears would be interested. Knowing that they can not count on Grossman. Both of the teams have room under the cap to make GOOD offers. Remember Kurt Warner got 5 million from the Giants in 2004. If Carr gets that kind of offer we save about 2.5 million. Its a gamble that could save some money but stress the relationship of Carr and the Texan. The best way to handle it is to try and renegotiate at the end of the season. If you can not reach a compromise then put him out as a restricted free agent. If I understand the the rules of RFA right, then another team would have to offer Carr a deal of at least 6 million before the Texans receive any draft compensation. (That is if the bonus is not included.)

One thing that I would like to point out is that the coaching staff beleives in Carr. Because when a season starts to go down the drain one of the first moves made is at QB. I have never heard the Texans mention benching Carr. I look at it this way. If MY JOB was on the line and I thought the QB was the problem he would be holding the clipboard.

infantrycak
11-22-2005, 02:15 PM
If you can not reach a compromise then put him out as a restricted free agent. If I understand the the rules of RFA right, then another team would have to offer Carr a deal of at least 6 million before the Texans receive any draft compensation. (That is if the bonus is not included.)

Carr will not ever be a RFA. He is completing his 4th year in the league right now so he will become an UFA if the option is not exercised. RFA is for players with less than 4 accrued NFL seasons.

TexAntagonise
11-22-2005, 02:51 PM
Carr will not ever be a RFA. He is completing his 4th year in the league right now so he will become an UFA if the option is not exercised. RFA is for players with less than 4 accrued NFL seasons.

This is what I have read. Collective Bargaining Agreement = (CBA)
"The definition that we cited above by the CBA for a Free Agent is really the definition of an "Unrestricted Free Agent" (UFA). More specifically, an UFA is : "[a] player [that] shall be completely free to negotiate and sign a Player Contract with any Club, and any Club shall be completely free to negotiate and sign a Player Contract with such player, without penalty or restriction, including, but not limited to, Draft Choice Compensation between Clubs or First Refusal Rights of any kind." Basically, what that means is that an UFA is free to sign with the highest bidder (or the team of their choice) without that team having to give the original team any kind of compensation. When a player with five or more accrued seasons (or with four or more accrued seasons in any Capped Year) reaches the end of his player contract, he becomes an UFA. "

The part that I failed to notice was "Capped Year". Since the salary cap has been in place for some time now the 5 does not apply. Thanks for pointing that out.

mean mark8
11-22-2005, 03:45 PM
Why don't we see what Ragone has in him?

Johny Unitas was a QB out of Louisville that originally played as an undrafted free agent for Pittsburgh. He came in to back-up the Colts' number one overall pick, George Shaw, but took over for him when he went down with an injury. Has anyone else ever heard of George Shaw?

Joe Montana was a 3rd round selection with a weak arm. He won 4 Super Bowls. On September 24, 1989, the season when Montana set the record with the highest QB rating ever of 112.4 and 3rd highest completion percentage of 70.2%, Montana was sacked 8 times through 10 seconds into the 4th quarter against the Eagles. For the remainder of the 4th, he went 11 for 12 for 227 yards and 4 touchdowns to win the game. Does Carr do anything like this or just get up in a huff and run like a beheaded chicken on the next play?

Tom Brady was a 6th round selection out of that great passing school, Michigan, who was backing up the former number one overall selection Drew Bledsoe. Bledsoe goes down in Brady's second season and Brady goes on to win 3 Super Bowls.

Kurt Warner was an undrafted free agent who played Arena Football. Warner is a two time NFL MVP and Super Bowl XXXIV MVP in his win over the Titans.

Jake Delhomme was an undrafted free agent who won a World Bowl Championship with the Frankfurt Galaxy. Delhomme had the second highest QB rating ever in a Super Bowl.

Trent Green was an 8th round draft pick with San Diego who was released and played in the Canadian Football League for 2 weeks.

Ryan Leaf was an overall number one pick. Heath Shuler was a 3rd overall selection. Andre Ware, a top ten pick. David Klingler, a top ten pick. Akili Smith, Rick Mirer, Jeff George, all number one picks. Todd Blackledge was drafted ahead of Dan Marino. Being a QB drafted in the 1st round does not guarantee you a hall-of-fame career while being a lesser round or undrafted pick does not mean you aren't.

Kyle Orton, a rookie with the Bears, is the only QB who has played every game for his team this year yet still has fewer yards than David Carr.

We have not had another QB take a snap this season. Even in our blow-out losses, Carr has still taken every snap from center. Why? He's a fourth year "veteran" and does not play up to his contract. Of all those number one pick QBs I list above, the only one who ever even had one good season was George. As for the others, where are they now? And by the way, when you're picking as early as any team for which any of the QBs listed above played, your team bites. It's guys like Unitas and Montana who make their teams better, not all of the sudden the team that was a basement dweller the year before gets great around them and makes them look better than they are.

thegr8fan
11-22-2005, 07:38 PM
mean mark8, that was a very well written statement. Biggest points, IMO, with the game already decided why is Carr still taking snaps? Why is it that Ragone can't get some gametime when the game is decidedly over? Why is it that our Coaching staff can obviously give up on a game and call running play after running play to end it, but can't put in another QB? Carr is in his last year, is there something in his contract saying we can only exercise the options available in it if Carr is never replaced, even at the end of game or something?

and second point, what do we stand to lose by putting in Ragone and seeing what the guy is capable of doing at full speed? Are the Coach's afraid of some kind of QB controversy or something?

if anyone has the answer please let me know, cause these questions are burning hot priorities, IMHO.

Double Barrel
11-22-2005, 08:02 PM
I think it's more telling that Carr is ridiculously over paid for what he brings to the table.

My thoughts exactly. The Texans are crazy if they give him $8 million without addressing his true worth according to his play.

I don't think overpaying a fourth year QB based upon potential is a smart move. We have way too many areas to address on this team to give him superstar money.

NeViKaN
11-22-2005, 08:21 PM
Can someone tell me what a transition player tag is? I did a search and found little help.
Thanksidonno:

infantrycak
11-22-2005, 08:24 PM
Can someone tell me what a transition player tag is? I did a search and found little help.
Thanksidonno:

The transition tag merely let's a team have an opportunity to match an offer given to their player at the cost of offering to pay the average of the top 10 salaries. There is no compensation if you choose not to match.

NeViKaN
11-23-2005, 03:47 PM
The transition tag merely let's a team have an opportunity to match an offer given to their player at the cost of offering to pay the average of the top 10 salaries. There is no compensation if you choose not to match.

Thanks for the reply. What if the best offer is below the top 10 salaries? Can they offer him the lower of the two?

billtxus
11-23-2005, 04:21 PM
Sure but no way this guy is worth $8M, not to this team, probably not to any team. Banks could have won one game also. Until the rest of the team is fixed its sensless to have an $8M quarterback, no matter who he is. Same reason it would be pointless to draft Linert, or Bush. They have too many holes, and should trade down to fill more holes.

I would like to see them play Banks or Ragone for a game so we could get a comparison, but Dom isn't letting that happen. He's too busy trying to fight for his job, to think of next year. He doesn't even put these guys in for mop up duty when the game is gone. Fourth quarter Sunday he should have replaced Carr, at least to give the other guys reps.

billtxus
11-23-2005, 04:24 PM
I think you are right, the coaches don't want to start a controversy. They are also desperately trying to keep their jobs to the point of distraction. Dom said he would mix in Wells on Sunday, so DD didn't have to carry the ball so much, and especially since Wells look good the previous couple of weeks. Come game day and no Wells. They are clueless about why this team is failing, and they aren't giving any thought to next year, because they know if they don't win they are gone.