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View Full Version : If McNair doesn't do something tomorrow he's a fool.


Nighthawk
11-21-2005, 02:33 AM
This team is gone, signed out, in the cloakroom, returned to sender, etc. No way to accept for another day the poor coaching and leadership here. McNair should fire Capers AND Casserly tomorrow and put Almost Anybody in as caretaker coach. Then he should declare the search for the new coach and GM open and pray to God Jimmy Johnson will meet with him. If Jimmy won't take the job, then maybe he can help McNair figure out who might.

Scott D
11-21-2005, 02:45 AM
I'm getting sick and tired of poor excuses as to why they are losing. As I said before. The coach says that they are not executing. Well? What are you doing about it? Dom says nothing. It's as if he doesn't care.

Grid
11-21-2005, 05:10 AM
No way to accept for another day the poor coaching and leadership here

yes fire them and hire one of the hundreds of future hall of fame coaches that every other team in the league has stupidly not hired.


firing Capers right now would benefit no body. It would only serve as a symbolic move to show the bloodthirsty fanbase that changes will be made.

Personally.. im not a big fan of useless symbolism. Changes will come, I can wait until it is the best time to do so.

Heywood
11-21-2005, 05:13 AM
mcnair's at home counting his enron money.

J-Storm
11-21-2005, 06:42 AM
I'm getting sick and tired of poor excuses as to why they are losing. As I said before. The coach says that they are not executing. Well? What are you doing about it? Dom says nothing. It's as if he doesn't care.

It's obv he doesn't care when he saw what 'Dre did by giving up the penalty that took us out of field goal range. He patted him on the shoulder and looked at him as if to say "It's ok Andre! I know how you feel. B & C (Bob and Chuck) are like that with me all the time". Could you imagine how Belichik or Cowher would have handled 'Dre's little anger management session. He would have been lucky to play the rest of the half! That's what makes me mad (and sick, probably more sick) about this team. There is just no emotion or pride about the coaches (apart from our ST coach). Gimme something Dom, lie to me, but try to at least make me believe you!!!

Malloy
11-21-2005, 06:50 AM
McNair said that he would not make any changes now as the off-season was the time for that. he did mention that both players and coaches are under contract and that the team is not playing as it's supposed to. Relax all, changes ARE coming...

touttail
11-21-2005, 07:28 AM
I'm getting sick and tired of poor excuses as to why they are losing. As I said before. The coach says that they are not executing. Well? What are you doing about it? Dom says nothing. It's as if he doesn't care.

Poor excuses?
Capers :homer: stated that the Texans had poor execution. That's what he says every blooming game. What more do you want? :sarcasm:

bobby 119C:brickwall

Wharton
11-21-2005, 08:22 AM
Actually, there are some benefits to taking action now.

1. It gets the process started - I am sure hiring a coach/GM is a hard decision and the more time you have to market the position and analyze the candidates the more comfortable your choice will be for you at the time you make the choice. The longer Mr. McNair has to perform due diligence, the better the decision he can make. Only time will tell if you have made a good choice.

2. Opening the position/marketing - By formally starting the search for replacements early, all possibilities will be evaluated (the early bird gets the worm so to speak). Mr. McNair will be able to talk to JJ and other candidates before other teams have a chance to approach him with other job offers.

3. Tough decisions now - Like it or not, there are some tough decisions to be made now, in particular David Carr's contract, which from what I have read on this board expires at the end of the season. It would be better to have the future GM/coach make this decision then be saddled with an expensive player that he may not want.

4. A message to the fans - as you can tell by reading this board, the fan base is disgusted with this team right now. Half of the fans attending the game last night were in the parking lot by half time, and from what I could tell about 10% was left after the third quarter. Fan booing was harsh on several occasions. An action now may help keep the fans in the seats longer during the final home games, which means more concession and ancillary sales for the team.

5. Sending a message to the players - this team was lethargic during last nights game, and that the nicest way I can put it. Many players are going through the motions just to collect a paycheck. By firing the Coach/GM, Mr. McNair would send a message to the players about keeping their jobs this season and next.

Anyway, this post is getting little long winded, so I'll stop now. Every decision has an action and a reaction, while I think I have made some good points here, there will and should be other opinions so ya'll fire away.

Malloy
11-21-2005, 08:28 AM
5. Sending a message to the players - this team was lethargic during last nights game, and that the nicest way I can put it. Many players are going through the motions just to collect a paycheck. By firing the Coach/GM, Mr. McNair would send a message to the players about keeping their jobs this season and next.


Good points, good post. On #5, what I heard Mcnair say(postgame comment broadcasted this morning on 610), was that both coaches AND players were on contracts, IMO hinting that if coaches can get fired, so can players. The last 6 games of the season will be all about players trying to show what they are capable of, if thy want to keep their jobs. I would not be surprised if Mcnair cleans out house real good and gives a new HC 2-3 years to turn it all around.

Buffi2
11-21-2005, 08:35 AM
Personally.. im not a big fan of useless symbolism.

I'm not sure that firing the coaches would be useless symbolism. Forget the fans for the moment and think about the players.

Obviously, this team doesn't have their heart or their brain in the game - they are just going through the motions and not very good motions at that. A coaching change now could put new life into the players - or at least a small breath.

I don't know that they would play any better under a new coach - but they sure couldn't play any worse -so what the devil? I say make the change now and see what happens. It seems silly to continue to dance with the one who brung you when he brung you to being the worst team in the nfl.

McNair saying changes are coming is great - but denial plays a big part in all of our lives. If a change is made now - reality just might cause a few players to put their heart and brain into the game. At the very least, they wouldn't be lined up at the door asking to be traded.

HomeBred_Texan
11-21-2005, 08:49 AM
A post like this can show the difference in opinions we all have. It would do nothing but harm and costs more money than it's worth to hire someone now. We need to ride out this season the best we can and then hire the best available personel at the end. You can't get the head coach we need in the middle of a season. They are under contract.

But when Capers decided to go for a field goal instead of a TD with a 4th and 4 and down by 17, well let's just say me and another 1,000 fans got up and walked out....

Malloy
11-21-2005, 09:12 AM
I don't know that they would play any better under a new coach - but they sure couldn't play any worse -so what the devil? I say make the change now and see what happens. It seems silly to continue to dance with the one who brung you when he brung you to being the worst team in the nfl.


Things might already have happened, as fans we don't have the insight we all would love to have. For all I know Capers is already fired at the end of the season and Mcnair is already looking for new coaches. Thing is, we just don't know. I will say this, if I were Mcnair I would not fire away during the season, it looks like a panic-move, emotional and unprofessional, something that does not look good with investors. Two worlds, what you say, and what you do. We only get the one.

ATX_Texan
11-21-2005, 10:27 AM
It would do nothing but harm and costs more money than it's worth to hire someone now. We need to ride out this season the best we can and then hire the best available personel at the end. You can't get the head coach we need in the middle of a season. They are under contract.

Nobody is saying that we can get Capers' replacement at this time. The bottom line is that this team has many, many problems and Capers is the biggest one at this time. As it was described in one of the posts above, you allow the search to begin right now when you fire Capers. If it is certain that you will fire Capers, then let the lame duck go now. You do him and the whole organization a disservice if you act like everything is fine in public, while you are going behind his back and preparing to hire another coach behind close doors. In addition, there are really important personnel decisions that need to be made. If Capers is not going to be here, why should we waste time getting his input.

I think letting the special team coach take over now will certainly not hurt anything. You put him in a no lose situation. If the team tanks, no one will blame him. If he does well by some miracle, it will help his career. Just having some head coaching experience has to be a positive thing.

The fans that are true blue don't care who is running the team and how bad they play. The band wagoners are long gone. This move gives the people on the fence a reason to be interested in the rest of this lost season.

cadahnic
11-21-2005, 10:40 AM
I think the players and Coaches understand that they are all fighting for jobs right now. Most of the lower coaches are likely looking for jobs elsewhere. The players are also have their agents getting their finances in order for the upcoming FA off-season. It is gonna be alot of house cleaning this off-season. I dont think you can really do anything right now but wait till the offseason. I am still gonna get up every sunday and saturday excited about Texans football, but my excitement will be when the season actually starts for us and that is the first day of the off-season.

houstonhurricane
11-21-2005, 10:44 AM
To be frank, prior to last night I was leaning more toward canning Casserly and potentially giving Caper's another shot. However, I have to agree that he lost this team as they play foolishly and without emotion. I think it would be a wise move to put in an interim coach who wouldn't worry about making "smart" decisions during the close of a 1-9 season...

Why did we have our starters in during the last few drives? Why not give the backups a chance to prove they deserve some playing time - including Banks and Ragone? Why in the heck would we go for a field goal on fourth and goal from the four and then use a timeout to get there? Too many poor decisions and allowing the team to fall apart without any threat of benchings, etc.

playoff year please
11-21-2005, 11:07 AM
A post like this can show the difference in opinions we all have. It would do nothing but harm and costs more money than it's worth to hire someone now. We need to ride out this season the best we can and then hire the best available personel at the end. You can't get the head coach we need in the middle of a season. They are under contract.

But when Capers decided to go for a field goal instead of a TD with a 4th and 4 and down by 17, well let's just say me and another 1,000 fans got up and walked out....

There were 1000 fans left at that time?

eriadoc
11-21-2005, 11:08 AM
Actually, there are some benefits to taking action now.

1. It gets the process started - I am sure hiring a coach/GM is a hard decision and the more time you have to market the position and analyze the candidates the more comfortable your choice will be for you at the time you make the choice. The longer Mr. McNair has to perform due diligence, the better the decision he can make. Only time will tell if you have made a good choice.

The process is probably already started. Backdoor deals and undisclosed discussions happen all the time in the NFL (other sports too). Furthermore, everyone knows the Texans will be hiring a new coach after the season, so anyone who wants to be a candidate is already aware.

3. Tough decisions now - Like it or not, there are some tough decisions to be made now, in particular David Carr's contract, which from what I have read on this board expires at the end of the season. It would be better to have the future GM/coach make this decision then be saddled with an expensive player that he may not want.

More than likely, McNair will hire a coach whose outlook on David Carr matches his own. There is also the notion around the league that Carr still has a lot of potential if he gets sufficient protection. There are no doubt a number of coaches who feel that they can rehabilitate Carr with good protection schemes and some solid coaching. Think about this, regarding Carr's coaching - he's had two voices in his ear for most of his career. First it was Capers and Palmer sending different messages and wanting to play two different styles of ball and then Capers handed off to Pendry. Once Palmer was gone, Pendry has taken everything away from Carr. This guy's coaching has left a lot to be desired. There will be coaches that relish the idea of working with Carr. You can teach mental; you can't teach physical.


4. A message to the fans - as you can tell by reading this board, the fan base is disgusted with this team right now. Half of the fans attending the game last night were in the parking lot by half time, and from what I could tell about 10% was left after the third quarter. Fan booing was harsh on several occasions. An action now may help keep the fans in the seats longer during the final home games, which means more concession and ancillary sales for the team.

As a PSL/season ticket holder, I definitely feel like McNair should answer directly to me. However, that selfish part of me also realizes that, for all my message board analysis, I am not qualified to make decisions for this team. So I'll have to accept the decisions that McNair makes and respond with my pocketbook. What I am trying to say is ... there's a certain amount of responsibility to the fans, but most fans overstate it. No message needs to be sent to the fans in this instance.

5. Sending a message to the players - this team was lethargic during last nights game, and that the nicest way I can put it. Many players are going through the motions just to collect a paycheck. By firing the Coach/GM, Mr. McNair would send a message to the players about keeping their jobs this season and next.

The players are more than likely going to be of the opinion that coaches don't go out and execute the game plan, therefore Capers doesn't deserve to be fired. It's not like the players are sitting around behind closed doors saying "Man! Does McNair even care? When's he going to fire Capers?".

WWJD
11-21-2005, 11:54 AM
I don't see any point in bringing in a new coach right now....if they do and they lose all the rest of their games then the fans and media will be screaming that the new guy is a major loser and you're back to square one.

Best to do the hiring over the offseason; give the new regime plenty of time to size up the draft and who they want to target and everybody start on the same page next year.

Vinny
11-21-2005, 12:02 PM
I don't see any point in bringing in a new coach right now....if they do and they lose all the rest of their games then the fans and media will be screaming that the new guy is a major loser and you're back to square one.

Best to do the hiring over the offseason; give the new regime plenty of time to size up the draft and who they want to target and everybody start on the same page next year.I think hanging on to Capers is a huge mistake. Instead of giving our youngsters like Morency, Wand and/or Ragone some snaps (at least in the 4th quarter in a blowout) and some experience in a lost season we will continue to roll out this same tired cast of "veterans" that we know what we have in them. Caper's isn't worried about looking at our youngsters for next season because only a fool would think he is coming back.

Malloy
11-21-2005, 12:05 PM
I think hanging on to Capers is a huge mistake. Instead of giving our youngsters like Morency, Wand and/or Ragone some snaps (at least in the 4th quarter in a blowout) and some experience in a lost season we will continue to roll out this same tired cast of "veterans" that we know what we have in them. Caper's isn't worried about looking at our youngsters for next season because only a fool would think he is coming back.

But whether he stays or not, it is still in his own interest to portray himself as someone with coaching abilities, try players out, play the professional role of coach EVEN if he knows he'll be gone. If he comes out and says, screw it, I'll be gone next year so F you all, then he won't ever get another job, ever :)

Vinny
11-21-2005, 12:07 PM
But no whether he stays or not, it is still in his own interest to portray himself as someone with coaching abilities, try players out, play the professional role of coach EVEN if he knows he'll be gone. If he comes out and says, screw it, I'll be gone next year so F you all, then he won't ever get another job, ever :)I really don't care what is in Capers interest long term....He is a millionare and he is going to be fine. I'm only worried about what is best for this franchise. I don't see how keeping Capers around is good for us at this point.

Malloy
11-21-2005, 12:09 PM
I really don't care what is in Capers interest long term....He is a millionare and he is going to be fine. I'm only worried about what is best for this franchise. I don't see how keeping Capers around is good for us at this point.

His long term interest would include trying out new and young players, something you yourself asked for in your former post?

Vinny
11-21-2005, 12:10 PM
His long term interest would include trying out new and young players, something you yourself asked for in your former post?Yeah, good to see some snaps for the younsters last night. You are making an argument based on fantasy. Reality is Capers isn't concerned with anything but right now.

Malloy
11-21-2005, 12:16 PM
Yeah, good to see some snaps for the younsters last night. You are making an argument based on fantasy. Reality is Capers isn't concerned with anything but right now.

Ok, I'm stuck in fantasy, good argument.

To be honest I have no clue what Capers is worried about, and I suspect that you are as much in the dark, and susceptible to speculation, as anyone else (including myself).

bckey
11-21-2005, 12:18 PM
I think the Texans have to make a move now. Capers is suffering through this and the team is also suffering. Neither is doing each other any good. Firing Capers would at least signal that changes are on the horizon. This team has already quit on Capers. If anything it is doing more damage to keep him here.

Vinny
11-21-2005, 12:19 PM
Ok, I'm stuck in fantasy, good argument.

To be honest I have no clue what Capers is worried about, and I suspect that you are as much in the dark, and susceptible to speculation, as anyone else (including myself).Just an observation from following the NFL since 1971. Lame duck coaches don't care about getting younsters PT since younsters will make mistakes. Capers has zero reason to play for 2007.

Malloy
11-21-2005, 12:24 PM
Just an observation from following the NFL since 1971. Lame duck coaches don't care about getting younsters PT since younsters will make mistakes. Capers has zero reason to play for 2007.

not even if it will damage his chance of coaching again (if he cares, money, future job, all that jazz)?

If that's the case then your point is valid. :)

Runner
11-21-2005, 12:27 PM
I think hanging on to Capers is a huge mistake. Instead of giving our youngsters like Morency, Wand and/or Ragone some snaps (at least in the 4th quarter in a blowout) and some experience in a lost season we will continue to roll out this same tired cast of "veterans" that we know what we have in them. Caper's isn't worried about looking at our youngsters for next season because only a fool would think he is coming back.

I used to think firing Capers/some combination of coordinators in mid season would not do any good, and may do some harm. Upon further reflection (and evidence) keeping him is hurting the team now, if only because of the lack of interest in testing/seasoning younger players.

The new coach would have to be active in determining who plays though, if we keep the coordinators. From what I understand Capers lets Fangio and Pendry decide who plays. Does anyone have any definitive knowledge on that?

Malloy
11-21-2005, 12:30 PM
I'm more worried if the best coach possible is available now. Offseason "might" provide a broader variety.

Wharton
11-21-2005, 01:01 PM
Nobody says you have to choose a replacement now. Let Pendry take over for now and start your search.

Bench DC and let him take a look at the games from the sidelines for a little while. A change of perspective so to speak, can do wonders. If Bradford isn't in the Texans long term plans, then sit him and play Mathis (I think he's earned a look).

Bring in JJ as a consultant, if he doesn't want a job. While there are alot of backroom deals in the NFL, a formal search is always best. According to talk radio (and we all know how reliable that is), McNair has started making inquires in to availability of people.

cadahnic
11-21-2005, 01:06 PM
It was someone expressing themselves and that is within their right. Firing Capers would really not help this franchise. The only good thing that could come out of it is players that usually dont play would play. That is a double edged sword though, because most of our guys that dont play are really bad. Plus any coach that we will likely go after (KUBIAK) will be in the playoffs so we have alot of time before we can sign the guy we want.

ATX_Texan
11-21-2005, 01:14 PM
Firing Capers now is the best option. Keeping him any longer just gives everyone else on the team an excuse to go through the motions for the rest of the year. If you fire Capers and promote one of the coordinators, you at least give them the opporturnity and responsibility to show what they can do right now.

If you keep Capers you will not see anything different from the players for remainder of the year. The Texans have plenty of tough personnel issues to decide. The only way they can determine what they have is to play everybody. As long as Capers in charge, you will see the same people (unless there are injuries), running the same tired plays, and McNair will have no better idea what exactly he has for next year.

If they are already working behind the scenes loooking for Capers' replacement, how is that any less insulting than firing him now and letting him get on with his life? This whole Capers is the coach (wink, wink), we support him (wink, wink), won't decide before the end of season (wink, wink) is just a horrible case of denial.

Please remember, Capers' salary will be paid regardless of what he is doing for the rest of this year.

Vinny
11-21-2005, 01:15 PM
It was someone expressing themselves and that is within their right. Firing Capers would really not help this franchise. The only good thing that could come out of it is players that usually dont play would play. That is a double edged sword though, because most of our guys that dont play are really bad. How do you know? They don't get on the field. Besides...what do we have to lose? Our playoff slot? What better way to figure out what you have than to see it on game film instead of relying on this failed staff's practice opinion.

cadahnic
11-21-2005, 01:23 PM
I know from watching these players in the times that they have PT. You can say practices, training camp, and any other time they played football. Bottomline Vin our backups are not very good. I understand were you are coming from you have seen 3+ players go to other locals and put up numbers, so why couldnt these other guys. well our team has less depth than ever before why because we do not have players that are very good.

throwANDREtheBALL
11-21-2005, 01:25 PM
Once again Vinny is right.

Any "Texans Fan" out there, that says firing Capers right now is a bad idea, is NOT a TRUE "Texans Fan".

Your either Jacksonville Jaguar - imposters......or Capers' relatives, or possibly one of four David Carr fans.

If you really are a "Texans Fan" and you think firing Capers, or Casserly right now is a bad thing, then you don't know football, or your WAY too in love with the whole UNDERDOG team mentality.

ATX_Texan
11-21-2005, 01:32 PM
How do we know how good any of the players are given the horrible and unimaginitive plays they are running on both sides of the ball? They are not running anything near an NFL calibre offense at this time. If we keep Capers, you can be assured that nothing will change for the remainder of the year. Capers is trying to salvage wins. Capers believes the only way to win is by executing his system better. Adjustmernts never were is strong suite to begin with. The problem is that every other team knows this system and no matter how well it is executed, the Texans will continue to lose.

mexican_texan
11-21-2005, 01:45 PM
word is, capers will find work as a defensive coordinator. McNair, it seems, is blaming it all on Casserly. He did make those bad trades...

cadahnic
11-21-2005, 01:52 PM
Word is McNair is blaming Capers and Casserly. Capers will be gone and find work somewhere as a D-coordinator. cass will do something. They are both quite well off so I am not that worried. Marciano and Hoke will find jobs elswhere likely Hoke will hit it big at a college and then come back to the NFL as a hot commodity. Either way they are all likely gone. And I commend McNair in already beginning the search for a new guy.

El Tejano
11-21-2005, 02:18 PM
Can we still keep Marciano? He has done a really good job around here and I would like to see the continued developement of Mathis under him.

Malloy
11-21-2005, 03:22 PM
Once again Vinny is right.

Any "Texans Fan" out there, that says firing Capers right now is a bad idea, is NOT a TRUE "Texans Fan".

Your either Jacksonville Jaguar - imposters......or Capers' relatives, or possibly one of four David Carr fans.

If you really are a "Texans Fan" and you think firing Capers, or Casserly right now is a bad thing, then you don't know football, or your WAY too in love with the whole UNDERDOG team mentality.

OR they're people with a different view on things...

I think there's another thread on who's a fan and who's not...

OzzO
11-21-2005, 04:14 PM
Players already know they're job is on the line as well, I don't think you'll see the "going through the motions" the rest of the season.

....The Texans were already last in the NFL with 153.3 rushing yards allowed per game going in, and Kansas City finished with 226.

"It's a collective effort by all the defenders," Peek said. "We need everybody on the ball, gang-tackling, and we're not getting enough of that right now. We've got to have (more of) that. It has to turn around.

"We're out here playing for our jobs. At some point, we'll see who wants to keep their jobs."

chronic 11/21/05 (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3474520.html)

That said, I don't think McNair will revise the regime during the season. I seem to recall him noting something along those lines a game or two ago that there would be no changes. Forget where it was said, but it was said to the media and he's pretty good about being p.c. in the public. I think it was the same time he was asking fans not to give up and still support the Texans through the tough times.... but I could be throwing what was exactly said for a loop...

cuppacoffee
11-21-2005, 05:19 PM
word is, capers will find work as a defensive coordinator. McNair, it seems, is blaming it all on Casserly. He did make those bad trades...

Have you read this somewhere or just guessing?

cuppacoffee
11-21-2005, 05:23 PM
Word is McNair is blaming Capers and Casserly. Capers will be gone and find work somewhere as a D-coordinator. cass will do something. They are both quite well off so I am not that worried. Marciano and Hoke will find jobs elswhere likely Hoke will hit it big at a college and then come back to the NFL as a hot commodity. Either way they are all likely gone. And I commend McNair in already beginning the search for a new guy.


Where is this word coming from? Anywhere besides this MB? Inquiring minds want to know.

HoustonFan
11-21-2005, 05:43 PM
Unfortunately we've gotta ride this out - for as long as we can until the end of the season. Who do you promote for the interim if Casserly-Capers and Co. are fired?

*sigh How long was it before Fisher took over for the Oilers the last year they were here? was it about this time or was it closer to the end of regular season?

All I remember is that they won about 2 games that season and "lost" the Toilet Bowl by beating one of those damn Ohio teams - I think it was Cincinatti.

barzilla
11-21-2005, 05:48 PM
It seems to me that three basic points have been made for firing the coach now:

1) The players will get the message that they are playing for their jobs
2) The fans will get the message that ownership wants to turn things around
3) This gives the Texans more time to conduct a search/make decisions

I think the first two are valid except I could also see the players do something for someone they know is a lameduck. Honestly, does anyone see any assistant on this staff being even a remote candidate for this job? Obviously, you can fire the GM and coach now, but you cannot hire anyone inside the NFL until after the season. As I understand it, Carr's option comes up on March 1st, so a new GM hired in January would be just as effective as someone hired in December. You could hire someone like JJ early and let him watch the team while one of the assistants finishes out the string (the Dolphins did that with Saban). Then, he might be in a better position to make personnel decisions, but by and large these guys can watch tape and see what's going on.

McNair has intimated in every way that the coaches will be gone except for actually saying it. I think the players get the message too. Do you need to clean house now to reinforce that? The only one I'm not sure about is Casserly. We all think he should go, but does McNair? I'm not so sure. All I know is that this next draft is a golden oppoortunity and will be the make or break draft for this organization. If they hit on their picks then they could be right back in contention with a good free agent or two. If they miss then we could become the Arizona Cardinals.

Ibar_Harry
11-21-2005, 06:00 PM
I think hanging on to Capers is a huge mistake. Instead of giving our youngsters like Morency, Wand and/or Ragone some snaps (at least in the 4th quarter in a blowout) and some experience in a lost season we will continue to roll out this same tired cast of "veterans" that we know what we have in them. Caper's isn't worried about looking at our youngsters for next season because only a fool would think he is coming back.

I agree with you in principle as long as the coach that remains is Marciano. Pendry is a big loss and probably the catalyst of many of the problems we are seeing with this ball club.

Scott D
11-21-2005, 10:07 PM
Poor excuses?
Capers stated that the Texans had poor execution. That's what he says every blooming game. What more do you want?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe a statement from Dom that says I can't coach a @$*&$@!% football team. Fire me please.

Or maybe, just maybe bench the starters and put the secondary in there. As to what I can remember, the secondary played better than the starters.

Realistically, I don't see any dissipline or accountability with the players or the coaching staff. Take AJ for example. He should have been ejected from the game but that didn't happen. The coach should have benched him for the rest of the game but that didn't happen either. As I said, no accountability.

Grid
11-21-2005, 10:47 PM
Once again Vinny is right.

Any "Texans Fan" out there, that says firing Capers right now is a bad idea, is NOT a TRUE "Texans Fan".

Your either Jacksonville Jaguar - imposters......or Capers' relatives, or possibly one of four David Carr fans.

If you really are a "Texans Fan" and you think firing Capers, or Casserly right now is a bad thing, then you don't know football, or your WAY too in love with the whole UNDERDOG team mentality.


OR.. they are communists.. and possibly devil worshippers.


no point in firing Capers at this juncture IMO. It would be a classless move and wouldnt benefit us in any way. What makes you think his interim replacement will do any better? what makes you think he would play our rookies? He is going to want to win if at all possible to improve his resume.

NFLforher
11-22-2005, 12:14 AM
Poor excuses?
Capers :homer: stated that the Texans had poor execution. That's what he says every blooming game. What more do you want? :sarcasm:

bobby 119C:brickwall


I want him to close his mouth on the sidelines.

aj.
11-22-2005, 12:29 AM
*sigh How long was it before Fisher took over for the Oilers the last year they were here? was it about this time or was it closer to the end of regular season?


It was exactly at this point of the season. Pardee was fired after the team reached 1-9. Fisher's first game was the last MNF game ever held in Houston in '94. That was not the Oilers last season here btw - that would be '96.

Fisher was also the reason why it made sense to drop the hammer on Pardee at 2/3 season - unlike now when there's no one to realistically assume that role for the Texans. Dumping Capers now and replacing him with anyone on his staff would be like dropping Ed Biles and replacing him with Chuck Studley. That did a lot of good.

It's been 12 years since Houston had an NFL team with a winning record.

beerlover
11-22-2005, 12:50 AM
It was exactly at this point of the season. Pardee was fired after the team reached 1-9. Fisher's first game was the last MNF game ever held in Houston in '94. That was not the Oilers last season here btw - that would be '96.

Fisher was also the reason why it made sense to drop the hammer on Pardee at 2/3 season - unlike now when there's no one to realistically assume that role for the Texans. Dumping Capers now and replacing him with anyone on his staff would be like dropping Ed Biles and replacing him with Chuck Studley. That did a lot of good.

It's been 12 years since Houston had an NFL team with a winning record.

any :idea: on Capers replacement? I've heard that Pete Carrol is interested in returning to Pro Football which would make that #1 pick all the more interesting :hmmm:

cadahnic
11-22-2005, 01:03 AM
To the inquiring minds just know that things are in the works and things have been said. You will have to wait till the end of the season, but rest assured that McNair will not let the product stay pathetic.

Nighthawk
11-22-2005, 02:35 AM
To the inquiring minds just know that things are in the works and things have been said. You will have to wait till the end of the season, but rest assured that McNair will not let the product stay pathetic.

Do us all a favor and show some bona fides or quit sneaking around pretending you're Deep Throat. If you ARE Deep Throat, just flash your credentials the one time and I'll shut up.

Malloy
11-22-2005, 04:34 AM
Do us all a favor and show some bona fides or quit sneaking around pretending you're Deep Throat. If you ARE Deep Throat, just flash your credentials the one time and I'll shut up.

Mcnair said after the game that he did not have the product he wanted, and that changes were coming, but not until the end of the season. He mentioned that both coaches AND players were on contract (possibly hinting that if on a contract, everyone can lose that contract too).

"changes were coming" = I'm 99% sure he said this, at least he hinted that "something" would have to be done, which equals changes.

ATX_Texan
11-22-2005, 07:30 AM
no point in firing Capers at this juncture IMO. It would be a classless move and wouldnt benefit us in any way. What makes you think his interim replacement will do any better? what makes you think he would play our rookies? He is going to want to win if at all possible to improve his resume.

Why is firing Capers now a classless move? Is it anymore "classy" for McNair to give him the vote of confidence in public, while he is really working behind the scenes to find his replacement? People continue to have this strange idea that firing a coach in mid-season will discourage candidates from coming to the Texans. Are the Browns and Dolphins considered classless organizations? They both fired their coaches during last season. It appears they were able to obtain quality coaches.

Any iterim coach will at least be given the opportunity to do things their way until the end of year. Right now, everyone on this team from the coaches to the players have a built in excuse to not do anything because they can fall back on "We are just doing what Capers is telling us". Remove him and then responsibility will at least shift back to them. Making the move will allow them to hopefully start doing things a little different around here.

barzilla
11-22-2005, 09:35 AM
Any iterim coach will at least be given the opportunity to do things their way until the end of year. Right now, everyone on this team from the coaches to the players have a built in excuse to not do anything because they can fall back on "We are just doing what Capers is telling us". Remove him and then responsibility will at least shift back to them. Making the move will allow them to hopefully start doing things a little different around here.

The problem with that line of thinking is that an interim coach has to have at least a remote chance of getting the job (or even keeping his old job as the Dolphins DC did) or have a better report with the players than the head coach to make that work. Essentially, you're talking about replacing an ineffective teacher with a substitute teacher.

The best reason for these players to play well is that their owner has intimated that their job could be on the line too. Bad schemes and strategy is one thing, but poor execution is another. Poor execution is as much on the players as it is the coaches.

The only good excuse for firing the coaches now is that it is becoming more and more of a distraction with each passing week. There is little gained in having an extra six weeks at this point. The new GM should hire the new coach (assuming Casserly is also jettisoned at season's end) and NO NFL coaches are available now anyway. Pete Carroll is a decent thought, but since he will be in the national championship game he won't be available until early January. The same is true for any good college coach. We might as well wait.

Besides, the thoughts on the Browns in particular are specious. The Browns are not a class organization (they gave Palmer less time than we've given Capers) and have gone through three different regimes. They may pass all the Miss Manners tests, but we shouldn't pattern ourselves after them. I think four seasons is enough for Capers and if you go to the end of the season then you set that precedent for your organization.

bckey
11-22-2005, 10:27 AM
To the inquiring minds just know that things are in the works and things have been said. You will have to wait till the end of the season, but rest assured that McNair will not let the product stay pathetic.


Do us all a favor and show some bona fides or quit sneaking around pretending you're Deep Throat. If you ARE Deep Throat, just flash your credentials the one time and I'll shut up.


LMAOlol:

ATX_Texan
11-22-2005, 10:37 AM
The problem with that line of thinking is that an interim coach has to have at least a remote chance of getting the job (or even keeping his old job as the Dolphins DC did) or have a better report with the players than the head coach to make that work.

Jim Bates was Miami's defensive coordinator before taking over as interim coach last year when Dave Wannstedt resigned (fired: wink, wink) at midseason. Bates led the Dolphins to a 3-4 record. The team was 1-8 when Wannstedt quit. Bates was able to show his ability as a head coach and no one will ever be able to take that off his resume. He is actually the defensive coordinator for the Packers this year.

Regardless of how bad some people feel about the Browns and Dolphins, they were never the less able to recruit some highly respected coaching candidates. I don't think any coaching candidate rejected a chance to work for these organizations because of the way the former coach was removed.

I still don't understand how it is more classy to leave Capers as a lame duck coach with no hope of remaining, while McNair is working behind the scenes to replace him.

Whether the interim coach is a substitute teacher or not. It is obvious that the players have tuned out Capers. Will things change with a different coach? Most likely not. However, there will be some chance and people will be given opportunities that they would otherwise not have.

mexican_texan
11-22-2005, 10:40 AM
Have you read this somewhere or just guessing?
profootballtalk.com

mexican_texan
11-22-2005, 10:48 AM
check out profootballtalk.com for contining coverage of casserly's judgement

Texans_Chick
11-22-2005, 12:16 PM
It was exactly at this point of the season. Pardee was fired after the team reached 1-9. Fisher's first game was the last MNF game ever held in Houston in '94. That was not the Oilers last season here btw - that would be '96.

Fisher was also the reason why it made sense to drop the hammer on Pardee at 2/3 season - unlike now when there's no one to realistically assume that role for the Texans. Dumping Capers now and replacing him with anyone on his staff would be like dropping Ed Biles and replacing him with Chuck Studley. That did a lot of good.

It's been 12 years since Houston had an NFL team with a winning record.

Agreed.

You only make a midseason move if you have someone in-house that is a better choice.

For where we are now, and the choice we have now, the best approach is to wait until after the season to make moves when there are better choices available.

Usually the fire Capers/Casserly immediately point of view start looks a little silly when people say who they would like to be the interim guys. And then it makes you say, yeah right.

cuppacoffee
11-22-2005, 12:18 PM
profootballtalk.com


Are you referring to the "rumor mill" ?
I visit the site frequently and quite often they are accurate.
Having said that, I doubt that they are privy to any conversations that go on between Mr McNair and his employees. They are reading between the lines like many of us do, but that doesn't translate into fact until it actually occurs.

If you read the article again you will notice the sentence:

"Our source shared with us a possible conversation between the two."

Your other statement " To the inquiring minds just know that things are in the works and things have been said." Is only conjecture.

Don't accept everything you read on the web as being based on fact. :cool:


cac: :coffee:

Texans_Chick
11-22-2005, 12:38 PM
Don't accept everything you read on the web as being based on fact. :cool:


cac: :coffee:


Exactly. Truth is a weird thing. When you are looking at complex situations, it is hard to know what the real truth is because everyone filters things through their own life experiences.

Is Carr bad, or is it the system, or is it the supporting cast, or is it the coaching, or is it the offensive line, or is it some combination thereof?

Are we drafting poorly, or is it that rookies are starting before they are ready, or they don't have good enough talent around them to achieve, or are they being coached poorly, or is it a mixed bag of some good picks some not, or is it that some picks haven't fully developed yet, or bad luck unpredictable injuries or is it some combination thereof?

You can pick any portion or part of the team and do this same analysis. And STILL not be assured of discovering the root causes of all the problems. Some things the team has done has worked, but a lot of stuff this season has not worked. The general truth is that this team is not good right now, but the root causes and specific truths are more difficult to discern because there are so many things that go into it.

Bottom line, the team tried to make some changes in the off-season with an eye on getting better and they whiffed. Some moves work, but these moves dint. When you are in a results business and you don't get them, no matter what the reason, you are gonna get canned, and that is what is gonna happen, but not midseason for the Texans cuz there is no good replacement.

Speaking of truth, I heard that Muhammad Saidal Sahhaf wants to be the new spokesperson for the Texans, saying:

Houston is 10-0.

They have humilated their opponents like the dogs that they are.

David Carr has never been sacked. The enemy defense has never penetrated the line of scrimmage.

The injuries are just more lies and falsehoods by the American media.

Dom Capers is still in power and will never be axed.




OK, it was an attempt at humor.

Though I will say that I find very little humor about the team now. These are generally a good group of guys, I still think they are playing hard, but they don't have the pieces and parts around to compete, and I just hate seeing folks kick them when they're down. As bad as we feel about the team, I am betting the team and coaches feels worse. I don't care how much or little money you make, it just feels bad to be playing on a losing team.

mean mark8
11-22-2005, 12:44 PM
A post like this can show the difference in opinions we all have. It would do nothing but harm and costs more money than it's worth to hire someone now. We need to ride out this season the best we can and then hire the best available personel at the end. You can't get the head coach we need in the middle of a season. They are under contract.

But when Capers decided to go for a field goal instead of a TD with a 4th and 4 and down by 17, well let's just say me and another 1,000 fans got up and walked out....

And he did it after calling a timeout. This coach doesn't realize he's 1-9. Remember his comment, "It doesn't matter if you're 0-4 or 4-0, you have to stay with what you're doing?" What you're doing is embarrassing your team to the point of humiliation. Keeping this coach is only making things worse. It is making the players believe more and more that they can't do it. The coach doesn't believe in them to be able to do it. The fans don't believe in them to be able to do anything under this coach. While changing the coach is not going to turn this thing around instantaneously, it will be a gesture to the players and the fans that the owner feels it is the coaching holding them back. There have been a lot of interim coaches over the years when the owners of those respective teams have said enough is enough. Did all of those interims stay as the head coach the next year? No. We are not looking for our new head coach of the future to start immediately but we need to stop the bleeding now. Keeping Capers is damaging guys like AJ and DRob. Our "short bus" offense has ruined Carr. The embarrassing way in which we are losing is costing McNair money as half the fans leave the building at or before half-time and the rest are gone by the end of the 3rd qtr. Virtually 95% of the fans who remained for the 4th qtr of Sunday's game were Chiefs fans. That's of the roughly 1,000 fans or so who remained. The head coach has to go. The process of our future starts today. Putting things off until tomorrow just makes things worse.

ATX_Texan
11-22-2005, 12:51 PM
Usually the fire Capers/Casserly immediately point of view start looks a little silly when people say who they would like to be the interim guys. And then it makes you say, yeah right.]

What really is silly is to think that things will be any worse until the end of the year with anyone else coaching the team. Right now, Capers is 1 - 9. I don't think any of the guys on the staff would do any worse than that. I an assure every one that anarchy will not occur on the field. At least nothing worse than the already horrible performances of a team that clearly given up on the coach. The one thing you do is give somebody else the opportunity to be a head coach for the remainder of the year. It is not about saving this year. It is about getting ready for the future.

To me this whole situation is like the case where the husband has decided to end the marriage and find him someone else. However, he does not want to look bad by getting rid of her right before the holidays. So, instead he continues to put on the facade of everything is fine. In the meantime, everyone knows what is going to happen, including the wife. The search for the next one is just going on behind the scene.

The bottom line is that McNair should show some moxy and pull the plug on this fiasco. Keeping a lame duck around only for appearance sake does not make you "classy". If the Texans were not going to pay Capers for the rest of the year, it would be tacky. However, Capers is going to get paid no matter what.

Texans_Chick
11-22-2005, 01:01 PM
The bottom line is that McNair should show some moxy and pull the plug on this fiasco. Keeping a lame duck around only for appearance sake does not make you "classy". If the Texans were not going to pay Capers for the rest of the year, it would be tacky. However, Capers is going to get paid no matter what.

OK who?

Who is the interim coach?

Your post doesn't mention one.

Capers gets paid, the team doesn't hate him, so why can him right now?

McNair has said that much--that you only make changes when you know you can replace with someone who will do better.

Who is the miracle worker? If you say Joe Marciano, then you have just taken the coach away from the most productive part of the squad and not replaced him with someone else.

Lots of problems with this team, Capers being one of them, but firing him right now doesn't fix all those other problems though it might be emotionally satisfying.

bckey
11-22-2005, 01:18 PM
Hoke.

Texans_Chick
11-22-2005, 01:25 PM
Hoke.

To reward him because our db's have played so well this year????

Because he has helped develop Phillip Buchanon so well and incorporate him into our system????

Because he is fiery, and we all know that if he starts yelling at guys, they will start to play more better because yelling improves performance.

I am not a Hoke hater, but he is not going to improve things being interim guy. He has his work cut out for him trying to figure out how to do musical DBs with all the injuries.



Please re-read AJ's post in this thread.

ATX_Texan
11-22-2005, 01:35 PM
What would possibly be wrong with rewarding Coach Joe Marciano with the head coaching job for the rest of the year? You are correct in your assessment that the special teams is the ONE area of this team that has been good this year. If you promote him, you show that this organization rewards people who get results. In addition, you put him in a no lose situation. If the team continues to be as bad, who will blame him? If by some miracle the show improvement, it only helps his stock as a coach. The one thing you do is give him is the opportunity to he an NFL coach. How can they be a bad thing?

The one I know is that if Capers remains as head coach it helps absolutely no one. The difference between Capers and Joe at this point in time is absolutely nothing. The team does not care what Capers is trying to do. They cannot possibily play any worse than they are right now. I would hope that maybe the players would at least rally around the interim coach and make some kind of effort. Right now, it is too easy for everyone to just blame everything on Capers and not do anything different until he is gone.

billtxus
11-22-2005, 01:45 PM
I also didn't understand why he didn't play Wells at all. In interviews during the week he admitted Wells did well the past few weeks and said he was going to mix him in. I don't know why he wasn't in there when the Texans were near the goal line. I really didn't understand the field goal at 4th and 4, down 17. It gave the Chiefs a big lift, when we potentially could have grabbed some momemtum with 14 straight points.

Texans_Chick
11-22-2005, 01:50 PM
What would possibly be wrong with rewarding Coach Joe Marciano with the head coaching job for the rest of the year? You are correct in your assessment that the special teams is the ONE area of this team that has been good this year. If you promote him, you show that this organization rewards people who get results. In addition, you put him in a no lose situation. If the team continues to be as bad, who will blame him? If by some miracle the show improvement, it only helps his stock as a coach. The one thing you do is give him is the opportunity to he an NFL coach. How can they be a bad thing?

The one I know is that if Capers remains as head coach it helps absolutely no one. The difference between Capers and Joe at this point in time is absolutely nothing. The team does not care what Capers is trying to do. They cannot possibily play any worse than they are right now. I would hope that maybe the players would at least rally around the interim coach and make some kind of effort. Right now, it is too easy for everyone to just blame everything on Capers and not do anything different until he is gone.


And if they perform well, is it because of the coaching, or because we are playing mostly teams with losing records.

And if they fall apart, is it that they weren't a terribly good team or is it that they had complete chaos from losing their liked head coach and taking away the special team's coach.

To see all the arguments pro and con re: marciano head coach see:

http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=14486

bckey
11-22-2005, 01:57 PM
To reward him because our db's have played so well this year????

Because he has helped develop Phillip Buchanon so well and incorporate him into our system????

Because he is fiery, and we all know that if he starts yelling at guys, they will start to play more better because yelling improves performance.

I am not a Hoke hater, but he is not going to improve things being interim guy. He has his work cut out for him trying to figure out how to do musical DBs with all the injuries.



Please re-read AJ's post in this thread.


You asked for a name and you got one. I am sorry if you didn't like it. I am in the camp that thinks keeping Capers around until the end of the season is doing more damage than good. I am not asking for Hoke to be the next hc just an interim for the last 6 games. Can he do worse? I think not.

ATX_Texan
11-22-2005, 02:05 PM
And if they fall apart, is it that they weren't a terribly good team or is it that they had complete chaos from losing their liked head coach and taking away the special team's coach.

How you do you define complete chaos? Again, if we fire Capers will this team be anymore horrible than it is right now? Will they lose by 40 points, instead of 20 to 30 points every game? I would also like to know how we can know how "well liked" Capers is by the team. I am sure that they like the fact that they are given a free ride to take the rest of the season off because he is just a lame duck.

Right now, we know that Palmer, Capers, and Fangio are the architects of the abomination we see on the field right now. You remove them all from the picture and install Marciano as HC, Hoke as DC, and leave Pendry as OC (as much as I feel he is just another problem). Now, these guys don't have the excuse that Capers is holding them back. They have the responsibility and the ability to show everyone what they can do. If it works, it is only good for them. If it does not, no one will hold it against them. If the team rallies around these guys in an effort to win one for Dom after his wrongful firing, than that is just a bonus. They sure don't seem all that concerned about saving his job by their performance this season.

Texans_Chick
11-22-2005, 02:09 PM
You asked for a name and you got one. I am sorry if you didn't like it. I am in the camp that thinks keeping Capers around until the end of the season is doing more damage than good. I am not asking for Hoke to be the next hc just an interim for the last 6 games. Can he do worse? I think not.

It is not that I didn't like it, it is just that I thought it was silly.

I recognize that people have strong feelings about how this season is going, and I do too, but the problem is that at this point of the season, there are very few options that we can do that really will fix things.

Taking a college guy who can barely keep a lid on the db situation and promoting him to the interim guy just seems silly to me. I've made my point about that and you haven't said anything different.

I can be persuaded otherwise, but I haven't seen the argument that supports it, and it has to be more of an argument than just "anyone would be better than this guy" based on a feeling in your spleen or something. If you can make a rational argument about why Hoke would be a good head interim coaching prospect at this point in his career, I'd love to hear it.


Seriously.

Anyone.

I'd love to hear who this miracle replacement guy is. If we have a Jeff Fisher on our staff, waiting in the wings, who would be The Guy to replace Capers, I'd love to hear it.

ATX_Texan
11-22-2005, 02:19 PM
I'd love to hear who this miracle replacement guy is. If we have a Jeff Fisher on our staff, waiting in the wings, who would be The Guy to replace Capers, I'd love to hear it.

Again, this is not a question about saving this season. The real problem is figuring out what exactly we have on this team during the remaining weeks. If we leave Capers and crew around, we will learn absolutely nothing. We will see the same tired game plan by the same disinterested players just waiting for the season to end.

Is Hoke ready to become a DC on this staff or any other? We don't know because we will continue to see Fangio's system until the off season. Let him run the defense until the end of year.

Is this Pendry's offense or is he just folllowing Capers' grand plan? Now, he can maybe dazzle us with something new and exciting. I doubt it, but come on it MIGHT be better.

The whole "OH my God, we fire Capers and the Texans will descend into chaos and the players will burn down Reliant" is pure nonsense.

Texans_Chick
11-22-2005, 02:20 PM
How you do you define complete chaos? Again, if we fire Capers will this team be anymore horrible than it is right now? Will they lose by 40 points, instead of 20 to 30 points every game? I would also like to know how we can know how "well liked" Capers is by the team. I am sure that they like the fact that they are given a free ride to take the rest of the season off because he is just a lame duck.

Right now, we know that Palmer, Capers, and Fangio are the architects of the abomination we see on the field right now. You remove them all from the picture and install Marciano as HC, Hoke as DC, and leave Pendry as OC (as much as I feel he is just another problem). Now, these guys don't have the excuse that Capers is holding them back. They have the responsibility and the ability to show everyone what they can do. If it works, it is only good for them. If it does not, no one will hold it against them. If the team rallies around these guys in an effort to win one for Dom after his wrongful firing, than that is just a bonus. They sure don't seem all that concerned about saving his job by their performance this season.


It is just another thing that makes their day to day job more of a mess. Not only do they have to game plan for the next game, but they also have to figure out who is doing what.

I don't understand the logic of anything you said in your second paragraph at all.

You know, it is quite possible to be playing your hardest and just not have the quality players, depth, and consistency and chemistry to win.

Coaching is a problem on this team, but it isn't the only problem. Given our remaining schedule, I wouldn't be surprised if we won any of those games. But if we play coach roulette, I just think it would be just another shuffled up thing again in a very shuffled up season.

Just admit that you want Capers fired RIGHT NOW because it would feel good to you. It's OK to admit that. Don't try to justify it as something that would be the magic voodoo, or fixin up pixie dust or something.

I'm just saying.

Texans_Chick
11-22-2005, 02:24 PM
Again, this is not a question about saving this season. The real problem is figuring out what exactly we have on this team during the remaining weeks. If we leave Capers and crew around, we will learn absolutely nothing. We will see the same tired game plan by the same disinterested players just waiting for the season to end.

Is Hoke ready to become a DC on this staff or any other? We don't know because we will continue to see Fangio's system until the off season. Let him run the defense until the end of year.

Is this Pendry's offense or is he just folllowing Capers' grand plan? Now, he can maybe dazzle us with something new and exciting. I doubt it, but come on it MIGHT be better.

The whole "OH my God, we fire Capers and the Texans will descend into chaos and the players will burn down Reliant" is pure nonsense.


Oh, now you have explained it. Hoke is the most super genius, omnipotent guru deluxe ever because he can install an entirely new defensive system in one week. (Though I will admit that I would like for him to use his magnificent talents to help figure out what we are gonna do with all the db injuries--maybe he has healing powers too!!!!)

Well, nevermind then.

bckey
11-22-2005, 02:33 PM
Here are some good arguments right here from this thread.

Actually, there are some benefits to taking action now.

1. It gets the process started - I am sure hiring a coach/GM is a hard decision and the more time you have to market the position and analyze the candidates the more comfortable your choice will be for you at the time you make the choice. The longer Mr. McNair has to perform due diligence, the better the decision he can make. Only time will tell if you have made a good choice.

2. Opening the position/marketing - By formally starting the search for replacements early, all possibilities will be evaluated (the early bird gets the worm so to speak). Mr. McNair will be able to talk to JJ and other candidates before other teams have a chance to approach him with other job offers.

3. Tough decisions now - Like it or not, there are some tough decisions to be made now, in particular David Carr's contract, which from what I have read on this board expires at the end of the season. It would be better to have the future GM/coach make this decision then be saddled with an expensive player that he may not want.

4. A message to the fans - as you can tell by reading this board, the fan base is disgusted with this team right now. Half of the fans attending the game last night were in the parking lot by half time, and from what I could tell about 10% was left after the third quarter. Fan booing was harsh on several occasions. An action now may help keep the fans in the seats longer during the final home games, which means more concession and ancillary sales for the team.

5. Sending a message to the players - this team was lethargic during last nights game, and that the nicest way I can put it. Many players are going through the motions just to collect a paycheck. By firing the Coach/GM, Mr. McNair would send a message to the players about keeping their jobs this season and next.

Anyway, this post is getting little long winded, so I'll stop now. Every decision has an action and a reaction, while I think I have made some good points here, there will and should be other opinions so ya'll fire away.


I think hanging on to Capers is a huge mistake. Instead of giving our youngsters like Morency, Wand and/or Ragone some snaps (at least in the 4th quarter in a blowout) and some experience in a lost season we will continue to roll out this same tired cast of "veterans" that we know what we have in them. Caper's isn't worried about looking at our youngsters for next season because only a fool would think he is coming back.

Firing Capers now is the best option. Keeping him any longer just gives everyone else on the team an excuse to go through the motions for the rest of the year. If you fire Capers and promote one of the coordinators, you at least give them the opporturnity and responsibility to show what they can do right now.

If you keep Capers you will not see anything different from the players for remainder of the year. The Texans have plenty of tough personnel issues to decide. The only way they can determine what they have is to play everybody. As long as Capers in charge, you will see the same people (unless there are injuries), running the same tired plays, and McNair will have no better idea what exactly he has for next year.

If they are already working behind the scenes loooking for Capers' replacement, how is that any less insulting than firing him now and letting him get on with his life? This whole Capers is the coach (wink, wink), we support him (wink, wink), won't decide before the end of season (wink, wink) is just a horrible case of denial.

Please remember, Capers' salary will be paid regardless of what he is doing for the rest of this year.

Jim Bates was Miami's defensive coordinator before taking over as interim coach last year when Dave Wannstedt resigned (fired: wink, wink) at midseason. Bates led the Dolphins to a 3-4 record. The team was 1-8 when Wannstedt quit. Bates was able to show his ability as a head coach and no one will ever be able to take that off his resume. He is actually the defensive coordinator for the Packers this year.

Regardless of how bad some people feel about the Browns and Dolphins, they were never the less able to recruit some highly respected coaching candidates. I don't think any coaching candidate rejected a chance to work for these organizations because of the way the former coach was removed.

I still don't understand how it is more classy to leave Capers as a lame duck coach with no hope of remaining, while McNair is working behind the scenes to replace him.

Whether the interim coach is a substitute teacher or not. It is obvious that the players have tuned out Capers. Will things change with a different coach? Most likely not. However, there will be some chance and people will be given opportunities that they would otherwise not have.

ATX_Texan
11-22-2005, 02:33 PM
Just admit that you want Capers fired RIGHT NOW because it would feel good to you. It's OK to admit that. Don't try to justify it as something that would be the magic voodoo, or fixin up pixie dust or something.

I realize just how terrible this team is right now. You are correct that the personnel is not where it should be at this time. For that, I blame Casserly and feel that he should be gone as well. However, he has the excuse that it all the Capers' fault for not using the players correctly. If you remove Capers now, you have the remainder of the year to confirm or deny that idea. I feel that coaching is the number one problem right now. I see a team that makes dumb penalities and appears to be completely uninspired. Staying the course will only insure that we continue to see the same half-hearted effort. This team is in complete chaos. Does Gary Walker or DRob have to start a fight on the field will someone on the team to confirm it?


If there was some magic voodoo, I would use it. I know that it will take a while to rebuild the mess that C & C built. The sooner everyone accepts that fact and it starts, the better.

Vinny
11-22-2005, 02:34 PM
Just admit that you want Capers fired RIGHT NOW because it would feel good to you. It's OK to admit that. Don't try to justify it as something that would be the magic voodoo, or fixin up pixie dust or something.

I'm just saying.To me, it has nothing to do with making me feel good. It's all about what I think makes the most sense. Personally, I'm not big on keeping leaders around that know they are out the door...no matter how much I consider them "good folks". I'd like to see Capers moved on so we can stop faking everything and get on with building this franchise. It doesn't work, let's look at a few kids and let’s get on with the future by playing some kids who don't get on film much. The guys who sit down are going to want to play even harder. Put it in Pendry's hands give him a bonus and tell him how you want to see your personnel handled for your evaluators. Capers as the dead man walking coach is just not a good idea in my opinion. Here is a quote by Nick Saban. I think Nick Saban sums up where we are at pretty well. Capers can't look anyone in the eye and say this. He's gone and he knows it.
You guys are asking me a lot of questions about making decisions about what to do based on how the seasons going. What I'm focused on is turning the corner, because we're building the team for the future. So where we are this season doesn't really matter. Doesn't really matter.

We want to see guys compete so we can know whether they need to be here. Do we want them to be here. They're the kind of people we want. Thats what we're trying to find out.

So the record doesn't really matter. The result doesn't matter. The score of the game doesn't matter. Does that make sense to anybody besides me?

So making deicisions based on record, or where we are, or how much times left in the game, or what the score is, or any of that, that's not how decisions are going to get made around here. They're going to get made about building a team in the future for this franchise that can be successful. That's what they're going to be made by. http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/13228692.htm

bckey
11-22-2005, 02:38 PM
Oh, now you have explained it. Hoke is the most super genius, omnipotent guru deluxe ever because he can install an entirely new defensive system in one week. (Though I will admit that I would like for him to use his magnificent talents to help figure out what we are gonna do with all the db injuries--maybe he has healing powers too!!!!)

Well, nevermind then.

You are too stuck on who would take over for 6 games on a 1-9 team rather than focusing on getting rid of a cancer that is killing the team. Start the treatment early.

Kaiser Toro
11-22-2005, 02:42 PM
It is my opinion that McNair should come out and say that everyone will be let go at the end of the season. This will put all players and coaches on notice as they are vested in their performance for the remiander of the season while not messing with any continuity. Moreover, it gives potential suitors for our coaches and players notice. It also gives prosepective candidates for a Texan position enough time to get their ducks in a row.

This will at least manage the mess with class.

ATX_Texan
11-22-2005, 02:47 PM
Oh, now you have explained it. Hoke is the most super genius, omnipotent guru deluxe ever because he can install an entirely new defensive system in one week.

If the alternative is seeing Fangio and Capers' same defense that they have been trying to install for 4+ years, please give me something new. I would be happy if Hoke do any one of the following: apply pressure to the quarterback, cover the tight end, stop the run, and most importantly: learn to tackle. He would have six games to at least work on one of these items.

It seems like some people are way too concerned about hurting poor Dom's feelings by puling the plug on him.

Texans_Chick
11-22-2005, 02:59 PM
To me, it has nothing to do with making me feel good. It's all about what I think makes the most sense. Personally, I'm not big on keeping leaders around that know they are out the door...no matter how much I consider them "good folks". I'd like to see Capers moved on so we can stop faking everything and get on with building this franchise. It doesn't work, let's look at a few kids and let’s get on with the future by playing some kids who don't get on film much. The guys who sit down are going to want to play even harder. Put it in Pendry's hands give him a bonus and tell him how you want to see your personnel handled for your evaluators. Capers as the dead man walking coach is just not a good idea in my opinion. Here is a quote by Nick Saban. I think Nick Saban sums up where we are at pretty well. Capers can't look anyone in the eye and say this. He's gone and he knows it.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/13228692.htm


Thank you, Vinny, for making an argument that is better than just saying in essence, just cuz you think it would be better.

You know, to some degree, I think we are seeing some of that already. Without it being said as such. Also, we are getting a lot of film on folks just because it is the walking wounded out there. For example, I hope Mathis stays good this week and we can see him return punts. (Actually I hope we actually have some situations where they are punting.)

We haven't seen it at the QB spot because I really think that they are trying to work hard with Carr--to see if he is coachable and is worth keeping. You can see how he has been changing some under Pendry--at this point I think a lot of guys are overthinking and not just being able to play. If you are trying lots of stuff and you aren't used to it yet, you overthink it and can't just do.

I guess I don't want to can Capers right now because I see so many problems on the team that I don't see him as "the cancer" that some others might refer to him as.

I just want to see what our team does against a slew of teams coming up that are not that good. If you make a lot of changes now, you are changing up the variables such that you can't figure out whether it is coaching or whether it is players or whether it is just easier teams we are playing against.

If you really have gone the direction of hey, this season is toast, let's just build for the future and see what different guys can do, well then, Capers can do that role too.

I can understand the build for the future Saban rhetoric, but I also understand the Capers no quit philosophy. I know people are saying his players have quit, but at least publically, they are saying all the right things.

Pendry as caretaker isn't terribly exciting either.

Just don't like any of our options right now.

Malloy
11-22-2005, 03:08 PM
It is my opinion that McNair should come out and say that everyone will be let go at the end of the season. This will put all players and coaches on notice as they are vested in their performance for the remiander of the season while not messing with any continuity. Moreover, it gives potential suitors for our coaches and players notice. It also gives prosepective candidates for a Texan position enough time to get their ducks in a row.

This will at least manage the mess with class.

But it would also make these boards so quiet, no speculation left :)

Wait a min, we can speculate who's going to command the ship come this offseason :)

mean mark8
11-22-2005, 03:33 PM
In a business, if you start to lose money, that's a really bad sign. You look for the cause and you put a stop to it. I've worked in the treasury of 2 Houston companies that were near bankruptcy but we were able to turn them around and make them successful. The first thing you do is look at your managers and employees and you terminate the ones who do not perform. You don't even have to have anyone in mind for their replacement, they're gone. Whoever is in the department with some type of leadership skills is let to run things until you find the guy who you know will make it work. Second, you start divesting your money losing properties. If an area is losing money, you close it or sell it. We would even take the charge for the loss before we actually dumped it. Then you begin looking at what's going on with your customers. Are they happy? You devise a plan to make them happy. In creating this plan, you see if what's created your problems is that the plan you had 1 or more years ago is/was just a poor plan or if the execution of that plan has been poor. (Sorry for the "Capersism" there with execution.) You make this the last step because you want to have these decisions made by people who will make the right decisions.

IMO, we are in the first stage of this process. For all intents and purposes, on national television our stadium was empty by the start of the 4th quarter. McNair has to have felt a significant hit to the revenue line in lost concessions' sales. Their solution prior to the Chiefs game was to offer a feable incentive to use your tickets for the last 4 games. Putting the names in a hat of all people who use all their tickets for the last 4 games and drawing a winner for 2 tickets to the Super Bowl, to watch other good teams play against each other. This brought people to the game but it can't keep them there. The next step has to occur in the process as soon as possible to keep the losses from growing. Does McNair really want to have his team play in front of 30,000 people a game for the remaining 3 home games? Actually, that number is probably extremely generous when you consider our final game is on December 24 against the Jags. More people show up at high school games than are going to show for that one if the process for fixing things hasn't already begun by then.

Kaiser Toro
11-22-2005, 03:46 PM
I am still not sure about the concessions arguement. McNair may be getting paid by the vendor through a license to sell, on top of the leasing the space out. I cannot imagine McNair having risk in the sales of concessions. When it comes to big money it is all about capturing annuity streams.

The people that I think are getting hurt by not going to the concessions are the vendors, presently, and us, in the future. If we do not support the current line up of vendors we will most likley see cafeteria style food as an option with future food vendors like Sodexo. Low demand will invite a vendor who is a low cost provider for such "preserved perishables."

This is only my opinion.

TheOgre
11-22-2005, 03:55 PM
I'd like to see an interim coach with emphasis on testing backups that haven't gotten much p.t. (Ragone, Hollings, Morency, etc.). I'm not saying they all play at the same time. I don't think that gives you a clear view of their abilities. Rather, I think you need to mix them into the starting lineup, and see how they do.

mean mark8
11-22-2005, 04:42 PM
I'd like to see an interim coach with emphasis on testing backups that haven't gotten much p.t. (Ragone, Hollings, Morency, etc.). I'm not saying they all play at the same time. I don't think that gives you a clear view of their abilities. Rather, I think you need to mix them into the starting lineup, and see how they do.

That's exactly what I want. Capers has shown all he will do is run Davis left, throw to a WR who simply turns to face Carr as his pattern, or throw to a WR on a 7 yard out pattern. On all of those 7 yard out patterns, we had a slot WR or two running deep fly or post patterns. Only once did Carr even attempt a pass over 10 yards, the 17 yard high pass to Gaffney where Gaff got hammered and couldn't hang on to the ball. What is wrong with playing other players to see if they're going to make the same decisions under the same circumstances?

touttail
11-22-2005, 05:15 PM
But when Capers decided to go for a field goal instead of a TD with a 4th and 4 and down by 17, well let's just say me and another 1,000 fans got up and walked out....

That when I started yelling at Capers and booing!!!


bobby 119C:brickwall

touttail
11-22-2005, 05:18 PM
To be frank, prior to last night I was leaning more toward canning Casserly and potentially giving Caper's another shot. .

Why in the world would you even hint at the idea of keeping Capers. He should have been fired along with Palmer!


bobby 119C:brickwall

touttail
11-22-2005, 05:23 PM
I think hanging on to Capers is a huge mistake. Instead of giving our youngsters like Morency, Wand and/or Ragone some snaps (at least in the 4th quarter in a blowout) and some experience in a lost season we will continue to roll out this same tired cast of "veterans" that we know what we have in them. Caper's isn't worried about looking at our youngsters for next season because only a fool would think he is coming back.

Vinny I TOTALLY agree with you. What more damage would it do to play some of our backups! Are we still trying for a playoff spot???? Capers :homer: could win out the season and still not have a job with the Texans next year!

Hell, at least we would have some players on the field playing with desire, besides a couple that are now. Does Capers:homer: think we will get blownout:sarcasm: if we play some reserve players?

bobby 119C:brickwall

touttail
11-22-2005, 05:30 PM
If Capers :homer: had any cojonies, he would resign now!!!!!!!

bobby 119C:brickwall

Vambo, the Marble Eye
11-22-2005, 05:36 PM
Actually, there are some benefits to taking action now.

1. It gets the process started -

2. Opening the position/marketing - By formally starting the search for replacements early,

3. Tough decisions now - Like it or not, there are some tough decisions to be made now, in particular David Carr's contract,

4. A message to the fans - as you can tell by reading this board, the fan base is disgusted with this team right now.

5. Sending a message to the players - this team was lethargic during last nights game, and that the nicest way I can put it.


Agreed, the season is shot and it is time to think about salvaging your revenue base... the fans. With the exception of thinking we need to send a message to the players all of your points address doing the hard things it takes to win.

The players are professionals... they better know you don't get to this level without doing what you are paid to do. WIN. A former Oiler head coach with an affinity for Elvis once said "NFL stands for not for long" while chewing out an official for a bad call. The statement is appropriate now.

:texflag:

barzilla
11-22-2005, 07:00 PM
ATX Texan,

Would six games with an interim coach really prove that the personnel was bad? Casserly could come back and say that key players were injured and the interim coach couldn't install his system in time to make a difference. The point is that both Capers and Casserly have built in excuses. Both can claim the other didn't do what they needed to be successful. You have to cut off both in order to do the right thing, but cutting off one to prove that the other was at fault won't work at this point.

I have an idea. If the fans really need blood then why not fire Vic Fangio and promote one of the other assistants to DC or have Capers call the defensive plays. When Pendry took over the offense improved slightly. A slight improvement in the defense might avoid complete embarassment. Is it a good idea? No, but if we must have blood we must have blood.

infantrycak
11-22-2005, 07:07 PM
I have an idea. If the fans really need blood then why not fire Vic Fangio and promote one of the other assistants to DC or have Capers call the defensive plays.

There is an idea that might actually benefit the team this season. Get rid of Fangio, have Hoke step in as DC with Dom looking over his shoulder. Let's see an aggressive D scheme--fine we may give up some big plays (like we haven't already) but let's see some aggression.

ATX_Texan
11-22-2005, 07:30 PM
Would six games with an interim coach really prove that the personnel was bad? Casserly could come back and say that key players were injured and the interim coach couldn't install his system in time to make a difference. The point is that both Capers and Casserly have built in excuses. Both can claim the other didn't do what they needed to be successful. You have to cut off both in order to do the right thing, but cutting off one to prove that the other was at fault won't work at this point.

I have an idea. If the fans really need blood then why not fire Vic Fangio and promote one of the other assistants to DC or have Capers call the defensive plays. When Pendry took over the offense improved slightly. A slight improvement in the defense might avoid complete embarassment. Is it a good idea? No, but if we must have blood we must have blood.

If I had my way, they would fire Casserly as well. However, I think that we need to peel away the layers of decay in stages. Like I outlined, you need to get Capers out of the picture now. We got rid of Palmer and exposed that the offense looks much the same. This tells me that Capers' system is still in place. As long as he is here, all the coaches under him will just be following his plan. Their excuse will continue to be that they are just trying to win the only way Capers knows how. By firing him and Fangio, you allow Pendry and Hoke the freedom to do what they want. The expectation is not turn this ship around this season, there is not enough time. McNair can set the rules that the remainder of the season is for evaluating talent and trying some different things. The Dolphins last year were 1-8 when they fired Wannedstat. The fact that the interim coach was able to get 3-4 out of them showed that the coaching was lacking. You will get a fresh outlook on the players and the coaches on the staff.

bigcarlos
11-22-2005, 08:10 PM
I doubt he would do it before Thanksgiving, maybe the week after:texflag:

barzilla
11-22-2005, 10:32 PM
If I had my way, they would fire Casserly as well. However, I think that we need to peel away the layers of decay in stages. Like I outlined, you need to get Capers out of the picture now. We got rid of Palmer and exposed that the offense looks much the same. This tells me that Capers' system is still in place. As long as he is here, all the coaches under him will just be following his plan. Their excuse will continue to be that they are just trying to win the only way Capers knows how. By firing him and Fangio, you allow Pendry and Hoke the freedom to do what they want. The expectation is not turn this ship around this season, there is not enough time. McNair can set the rules that the remainder of the season is for evaluating talent and trying some different things. The Dolphins last year were 1-8 when they fired Wannedstat. The fact that the interim coach was able to get 3-4 out of them showed that the coaching was lacking. You will get a fresh outlook on the players and the coaches on the staff.


Very valid. The Dolphins were a different case though. They always had a solid defense, so appointing the defensive coordinator made sense because his unit had success. That's the whole point. Usually in these interim cases you have one unit that is decent with the other unit being utterly pathetic. Both of our units are utterly pathetic. I would seriously appoint Marciano because you HAVE to reward success. Go ahead and fire Fangio at the same time and promote Hoke as you suggest and get after it.

My fear is that Casserly is going to escape responsibility. You cannot go into this next draft and fumble your way through it again. You have to hit on at least three of those first four selections (two third rounders) or trade down and hit on four of the first five. Then, you have to sign at least two or three significant free agents and hit on those folks too. Casserly is hitting about .500 which might be good in baseball but sucks when you're the top player personnel guy.

angeltexus
11-22-2005, 11:56 PM
Anyone in favor of keeping Capers should be forced to sit in his lockerroom so they can hear the same garbage before, during and after the game. When Keeshawn Johnson departed from Tampa Bay he exposed Chucky as being a slickster, well Capers is in the same boat only he is a so called NICE slickster. All yall fans that followed the Oilers for years should of known 4 years ago Capers was not a good coach. Why yall getting mad now. You got took by a SLICKSTER!!

Kaiser Toro
11-22-2005, 11:59 PM
Anyone in favor of keeping Capers should be forced to sit in his lockerroom so they can hear the same garbage before, during and after the game. When Keeshawn Johnson departed from Tampa Bay he exposed Chucky as being a slickster, well Capers is in the same boat only he is a so called NICE slickster. All yall fans that followed the Oilers for years should of known 4 years ago Capers was not a good coach. Why yall getting mad now. You got took by a SLICKSTER!!

Dude there is at least five other threads talking about the Slickster theory. Mods can we please purge, er, merge. :)

Nighthawk
11-23-2005, 12:27 AM
You only make a midseason move if you have someone in-house that is a better choice.

Usually the fire Capers/Casserly immediately point of view start looks a little silly when people say who they would like to be the interim guys. And then it makes you say, yeah right.

This is nonsense. Nobody wants an inside guy to be anything but a holder of the keys, maybe somebody who might want to stay on as a position coach or something.

You fire now so as not to have to ***** foot around playing like Capers and Casserly and the rest of the Sorry Bunch have a chance in hell of staying on. You fire now to get a headstart on the future. You fire now because it's the honorable and straight up thing to do. You fire now because you declare in public that you're going another direction and you want to get started.

Nobody thinks you could HIRE until after the season (unless you got lucky with JJ, and even that would be, at best, done now, effective after the season), but it's painful and wasteful to prance around AS IF CAPERS AND CASSERLY were doing fine or COULD MAKE A COME BACK.

Because it's best for the team, the town, the fans, prospective coaches, the future of the franchise.

Nighthawk
11-23-2005, 12:35 AM
Right now, we know that Palmer, Capers, and Fangio are the architects of the abomination we see on the field right now. You remove them all from the picture and install Marciano as HC, Hoke as DC, and leave Pendry as OC (as much as I feel he is just another problem).

And Casserly.

It's a ceremony, a public display, an acknowledgement of a team going in a new direction, a fresh start, something to care about for all of us together, something to invest in, a future.

Right now we're looking at a long stretch of meaningless games with a staff nobody cares about and players that are waiting to find out what their future might be.

Short of firing Capers and Casserly five weeks ago, firing them this week is the best thing McNair could do for his franchise.

billtxus
11-23-2005, 07:38 AM
First of all, as has been stated, you dont fire GMs mid season ( the replacement wont be available until after the season), and firing Dom probably wouldn't accomplish anything now either.

Second do you realize who hired the current GM and coach? Do we know that he will do better next time? Do we know that he spends enough on assistant coaches ( I doubt it). In short just because Bob is a billionaire and a nice guy, does he know how to run a football team?

barzilla
11-23-2005, 09:59 AM
It is very likely that if he doesn't hire JJ, McNair will at least consult with him to see who we should hire. Listen, I thought Casserly was a decent hire when we hired him. As far as Capers was concerned, I'm sure he was bowed over by his experience with the Panthers. Now, we just hire a GM and football coach without worrying about the expansion angle. Personally, I see any top notch football coach demanding that his assistants get paid the going rate. If we don't get a top notch coach then we know McNair is working on the cheap.

Texans_Chick
11-23-2005, 10:38 AM
It is very likely that if he doesn't hire JJ, McNair will at least consult with him to see who we should hire. Listen, I thought Casserly was a decent hire when we hired him. As far as Capers was concerned, I'm sure he was bowed over by his experience with the Panthers. Now, we just hire a GM and football coach without worrying about the expansion angle. Personally, I see any top notch football coach demanding that his assistants get paid the going rate. If we don't get a top notch coach then we know McNair is working on the cheap.

If we don't get a top notch coach, it may be that they don't want the challenge of rebuilding.

Easy to be Phil Jackson, supergenius, when you have MJ or Shaq playing with you. Harder when those players go away.

We are going to have to overpay anyone we get, and there are some folks that just won't want to deal with our situation at any salary.

The same thing goes with free agents--hard to convince people to come to a losing situation.

The best things we have going for us are as follows:

1. Great facilities. Largest weightroom in the league. The practice bubble stuff etc.

2. Diverse urban city but places nearby that are country.

3. No state income tax.

4. Less expensive housing than some places.

5. An owner who is charming. (aka the anti-Bud).



Whoever we get has to be someone that appreciates challenges and wants to create his own traditions and has the belief that they can go into any situation and succeed. Not all coaches are like that. If you are a badass coach, you can cherry pick whatever job you really want. It is very likely that coaches could use the Texans job as a way to get paid more at their present jobs.

My preference is to get an established coach who will not be trying to learn up his first NFL head coaching job. Someone who can get free agents to want to play for him. There are any number of people who fit in that category but I can't think of too many of those folks who would want to come to our situation.

That's where the wheelbarrow full of money comes in--but even then, for some of those folks, that might not work either.

billtxus
11-23-2005, 12:07 PM
I could understand firing Dom now in the context of looking at more of the players to figure out what they have. Right now Dom is trying to save his job, so he cares less about next year, and is desperately trying to win a few games. Realistically they season is over. So why not play Ragone and Banks a couple of games. We would find out more about Ragone, find out more about whether Carr is worth spending $8million on. Dom doesn't even put in Banks or Ragone for mop-up, its Carr every play.

The same is true for some of the other positions. Dom said if Buchanon is able to play Sunday he would start. Give me a break. I'd start Sanders to see what he could do. If the guy could tackle I'd leave him in for a while. The team might as well see what it has. No way Dom will do this.

You pretty much have to keep Charlie until the end of the year because there is no point having an interim GM. I think McNair is putting all this off because he doesn't know yet what he wants to do. I'm sure he is puzzled as we all are, how the same group that brought us three decent first years, has now failed so badly in the fourth.

barzilla
11-23-2005, 12:32 PM
Texanschic,

That is true, but I think the comparison with the Phil Jacksons is not as apt because teams can be turned around in the NFL in two years if that. I agree it will take money, but I think some might demand control of player personnel as well. At least you might get a JJ saying he won't come back unless he has total control or have Casserly gone at the very least. Coach-GMs have had mixed results in the NFL, but as least when it goes wrong you know who to blame. :)

infantrycak
11-23-2005, 02:15 PM
McNair won't do anything because he is not a good owner. His bark is bigger than his bite.

What have been McNair's failures? Not hindsight second guessing, but at the time should have known better moves.

Ryan
11-23-2005, 02:17 PM
To ask a question, how do you star a thread on this message board?

infantrycak
11-23-2005, 02:25 PM
To ask a question, how do you star a thread on this message board?

When you are in a thread, look to the upper right and you will see an option to Rate this Thread or something similar.

Ryan
11-23-2005, 02:27 PM
yes but i cant start my own thread and i don't know how to do so.

infantrycak
11-23-2005, 02:33 PM
yes but i cant start my own thread and i don't know how to do so.

Sorry, your post said star, not start so I thought you were trying to rate a thread. When you are looking at a forum look to the upper left of the thread list and there is a new thread button. It looks like a football and says new in the middle.

Hervoyel
11-23-2005, 02:36 PM
McNair won't do anything because he is not a good owner. His bark is bigger than his bite.

That is maybe the most laughable thing I've read on this board in four years. Some of the things said back on the nfl2002 board were funnier but then the troll to poster ratio was much higher then.

I knew it wouldn't be long before the griping would go up to McNair.

Texans_Chick
11-23-2005, 03:24 PM
Texanschic,

That is true, but I think the comparison with the Phil Jacksons is not as apt because teams can be turned around in the NFL in two years if that. I agree it will take money, but I think some might demand control of player personnel as well. At least you might get a JJ saying he won't come back unless he has total control or have Casserly gone at the very least. Coach-GMs have had mixed results in the NFL, but as least when it goes wrong you know who to blame. :)

True, turnarounds can happen fast in the NFL--what I am hoping for. I was just using the Phil Jackson example as just the most obvious situation of a guy who only has gone to the most cherry picked situations (except this year).

JJ has had all sorts of opportunities to come back to the NFL and has chosen not to. It will surprise the heck out of me if he comes here, whether he is offered the GM position or not.

I just think that we will have a hard time attracting a superstar experienced coach to our situation. It is more likely that those guys would use the Texans job as a way to make more money from their current situation or from another job.

I think that it is more likely we get a hungry for his first head coaching job kinda guy--sometimes that works, and sometimes that goes really wrong. It is not my first choice, but we may not get the pick of coaches because even though we are not an expansion team, our situation is more difficult than ones where the team has been around longer. There is no history of success. There is no loser team scheduling like they used to have. Teams keep their key free agents better than in the past because they have got more used to the cap.

I am just not very optimistic about a guy trying to figure out how to be a head coach for the first time whilst trying to figure out how to fix all our problems.

A history of success really does help a down team improve. A small example. Each year I go to the Texans Fashion Show. From what I understand, it is a charity thing that every NFL team does because it is required by league. (BTW, if you want to see and talk to the players, this is a best event to go to for the entire year because all the top players are in it, and they often visit with fans before and after the event).

Anyhow, I was talking to a player who came from a different team and he said he participated in his previous team's fashion show before. He was almost wistful in describing the other team's event, talking about how much larger it was than ours.

Of course, his previous team had been around for a long time and had success and a huge fan base, and the Texans event has gotten a little bigger over the years but is still pretty much mostly corporate sponsor types and a few fans. Who wants to go to a place without a huge hardcore base? The Texans have support, but it ain't very deep.

I guess my not very well described point is something that I just sense--that no matter how good or bad our fans are, there is no substitute for a history and tradition to build upon. Mack Brown understood that with Texas--reaching out to Darrell Royal first thing upon getting the job.

Hmmm, I don't think I am really saying what I mean on this. Let's just say that I will be more surprised for us to get the Uber coach that fixes all of our problems than I will for us to continue not doing well for a while. Cuz it ain't easy building from scratch.

Texans_Chick
11-23-2005, 03:37 PM
Hey, if you look back...I've been griping about McNair since week 4. The longer he goes without firing Capers & Co., the more and more I think he is a bad owner. He talks like he is concerned about the team, but yet he hasn't taken any actions towards proving he's concerned. The owner of the Vikings has put more of an effort into fixing his team than McNair into his team, and I don't believe we have any sex-boat cruises going, do we? Like I said, his bark is bigger than his bite.


So the litmus test of whether he is a good owner is whether he decides to fire his coaches in the middle of the season without having a better replacement?

He did fire Palmer.

You don't know what actions he has taken because it may be some of those are best done behind the scenes.


Here is some basic reading material about bad owners. Houston has had its fair share, but Mr McNair's name should not be said in the same breath with theirs:

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/owners/010710.html

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/2001/0710/1224543.html


Bob McNair rates on my list of favorite people of all time. For obvious reasons.

outofhnd
11-23-2005, 03:39 PM
Unless th future coach of the Texans is sitting on a couch somewhere eating Doritos whats the point of fireing him that means we give the job in the interim to Pendry, Fangio or another one of our assistants...

Personally I don't get whats happening according to everything I hear this team executes flawlessly in practice, but in games just crumbles... I put a lot of that on Palmer though... Its hard to break old habits especially bad habits..I think Palmers offense that he had the offense use is like making a 7 year old read war and peace... He seems to designed by thinking about what the defense would throw at him and failed to think bout how complex it would be for an offenseive player to pick up on it.

Keep in mind we are still running option routes on pass playsthat means Carr and the Rec. must see and recognize the same thing.. Which to me is just Horrific with the lack of protection... Not to mention you can practice but you can never have that timing between QB and WR with an offense like this because you first gotta think which way is he goin to go?

Pendry is making strides I know you laugh at that statement, but both turnovers and sacks have gone down since he took over the whole offense... However, we still do not have enough talent on offense mainly on the line... We do not have a game breaking tight end because he has to stay in and block on passing downs.. M. Rivers seems to be gettin a little better, but still doesnt seem to have a full grasp of the offense. Carr is starting to throw to different rec. than Johnson.. Bradford however I think will not be back next year, dont get me wrong he has improved some but he still is not the consistent rec. threat we need to take the double coverage off AJ. So we need OT, TE, #2 WR, thats 3 things right there not including picking up some quality depth.

Defensively Fangio is a man trying to save his job.. ever since seattle ive seen more blitz packages than I can ever remember seeing since this team took the field.. We need another DT/DE to have a good rotation. TJ is starting to really get off blocks better lately. I think our line gets wore out o quickly. We Need Some beter play from our LB core.. Definately need to look at getting another ILB or moving to a 4-3 scheme.. Babin does well against the run but doesnt shed blockers and get to the QB like he did in college on pass plays... Greenwood makes tackles however he is overly aggressive and out of position on the tackles so they usually occur 5 yards down he field. The Wong ILB experiment was an absolute failure... If capers is back next year... Move Orr to the inside as he seems o have a nose for the ball and does well just cannot beat the block... Peek seems to have the same problem as greenwood he gets pressure on passing plays but seems to try and get around a blocker on running plays causing yard gains.. he needs to take the blocker on and push him and fight thru him that way the back has to either cut back or string it out farther... Secondary speaking Robinson is our star.. Buchanon can definately take this time to go over the play book and figure out when he does and does not have safety help. Louis Sanders is ok but I havent seen enough of him he looks like a corner that is big and physical but looks kinda slow... Faggin is a pure nickel back as he doesnt look back and WR still seem to catch the ball on him... no matter what.. Safeties, we need to find a replacement for Coleman, as well as depth, Our strong safeties are ok CC Brown needs to put some muscle on and tackle better. Id like to see more physicality from them...

SO Offense we need - OT, TE, WR, stay with a group of 5 lineman.. and quality depth..

Defense - DT, 2 FS, Depth CB, Maybe another ILB or swap Orr for Wong and have babin just rotate in and out with Wong on the weak side.

If we get a new staff... I however would like to see this team line up in a 4-3 Defense

LDE - TJ - Babin
LDT - Seth Payne, Iaone,
RDT - Robaire Smith, Deloach or draft
RDE - Gary Walker, FA or Draft

LOLB - Wong, Orr, Anderson if Wong is gone.
MLB - Greenwood, Polk, Chamberlain
ROLB - Peek, Anderson,

LCB - D. Robinson, L. Sanders
RCB - Buchanon, D. Faggins
NB - D. faggins, J. Bell
SS - Earl, Brown
FS - Please draft someone, Coleman if we have to...

barzilla
11-23-2005, 04:10 PM
I'm not sure if Buchanon is a viable corner at this point. No, I'm sure. He's not. The rest of the roster looks okay, but it's the same defense just reshuffled. We need playmakers.

I'm thinking more and more that Palmer was scapegoated out of there. Yeah, a lot was made of him not believing in maxprotect. What has it brought us? 1.2 second drops and three yard outs to our wide outs and a bunch of dump passes. Not addressing the OL was criminal, but giving into the hysteria was just as criminal. Yes, David Carr will survive the year, but we now have the most predictable offense in football (not the NFL, all of football).

Runner
11-23-2005, 04:16 PM
Pendry is making strides I know you laugh at that statement, but both turnovers and sacks have gone down since he took over the whole offense...


To make a reducto ad absurdum argument, Pendry could vastly improve these offensive metrics by never passing the ball. Sacks would be completely eliminated and turnovers would be drastically reduced. No sacks, few turnovers - is that progress?

ATX_Texan
11-23-2005, 04:43 PM
Personally I don't get whats happening according to everything I hear this team executes flawlessly in practice, but in games just crumbles... I put a lot of that on Palmer though... Its hard to break old habits especially bad habits..I think Palmers offense that he had the offense use is like making a 7 year old read war and peace... He seems to designed by thinking about what the defense would throw at him and failed to think bout how complex it would be for an offenseive player to pick up on it.

If Palmer was the only problem, why has the offense continued to regress since he was removed? How do we know they are "executing flawlessly" in practice? If they have bad habits in the game would not these same problems appear in practice? I believe you are seeing an example of the Capers’ offensive philosophy in action. He has this crazy notion that if his team executes flawlessly, the other team will not be able to stop him (which only works if you are the Steelers of the 70’s or the Cowboys of the 90’). The sad part is that the players are so undisciplined that bone headed penalties and mistakes are instead the norm. On top of that, you have an offense that is so predictable and unimaginative that any defensive coordinator can easily defeat it. Finally, you have a coaching staff that has demonstrated no ability to make any sort of adjustments to counteract what the opposing team is doing. Put this mess all together and you the so-called offense we are forced to endure week after week. Yet people here are more than willing to let Capers hang on to the end of the year out of fear that somehow the resulting anarchy from firing him will be so much worse than the current product.

Bobo
11-23-2005, 05:07 PM
This team is gone, signed out, in the cloakroom, returned to sender, etc. No way to accept for another day the poor coaching and leadership here. McNair should fire Capers AND Casserly tomorrow and put Almost Anybody in as caretaker coach. Then he should declare the search for the new coach and GM open and pray to God Jimmy Johnson will meet with him. If Jimmy won't take the job, then maybe he can help McNair figure out who might.

Are you talking about the Texans, the Pittsburgh Steelers a couple of years ago or the SD Chargers of a couple years ago?

Bobo
11-23-2005, 05:10 PM
McNair should fire Capers AND Casserly tomorrow and put Almost Anybody in as caretaker coach. Then he should declare the search for the new coach and GM open and pray to God Jimmy Johnson will meet with him. If Jimmy won't take the job, then maybe he can help McNair figure out who might.

Thank goodness he WASN'T a fool and didn't take your advice! As for Jimmy Johnson, that would be the stupidest thing he could do. He was run out of Miami for a reason, you know.

CowboysTexansFan
11-23-2005, 05:25 PM
Jimmy Johnson wasn't run out of town in Miami. He quit for personal reasons, including the then recent death of his mother. He didn't win a Super Bowl in Miami, but his teams were in the playoffs most years.

He would be a great choice to replace the incompetent yokels we have in the GM and Head Coach positions right now.

Bobo
11-23-2005, 05:31 PM
Jimmy Johnson wasn't run out of town in Miami. He quit for personal reasons, including the then recent death of his mother. He didn't win a Super Bowl in Miami, but his teams were in the playoffs most years.

He would be a great choice to replace the incompetent yokels we have in the GM and Head Coach positions right now.

His teams were crushed and embarrassed in the first round in Miami. He proved in Miami that he couldn't bring the magic of Dallas to Florida because Jones stayed in Dallas. If Johnson took over in Houston, it would be an unmitigated disaster. Guaranteed.

CowboysTexansFan
11-23-2005, 05:36 PM
Yeah, right.

Johnson's teams may have gotten whipped in the playoffs, but we get whipped by the Chiefs and Titans at HOME in the regular season and are 1-9 right now. Anyone with a brain realizes that Johnson was the man who built the great Cowboys teams of the 1990's, not Jerry Jones. Look at what happened in Dallas after Johnson left and before Jones hired Parcells.

Johnson would get the Texans into the playoffs within 3 years. I'll take it.

Texans Horror
11-24-2005, 07:33 PM
If Palmer was the only problem, why has the offense continued to regress since he was removed?

I'd argue that the problems started with the front line, which was being coached by Pendry. The line showed progress, but was eventually stunted by Pendry. Making him OC only made matters worse. Taking him and Capers out of the picture would most likely hinder the team's ability to win (not saying that Capers is doing any better). Removing the staff now, IMO, would at least send a message to the team that teh front office recognizes how screwed up everything is.

Texans Horror
11-24-2005, 07:34 PM
Yeah, right.

Johnson's teams may have gotten whipped in the playoffs, but we get whipped by the Chiefs and Titans at HOME in the regular season and are 1-9 right now. Anyone with a brain realizes that Johnson was the man who built the great Cowboys teams of the 1990's, not Jerry Jones. Look at what happened in Dallas after Johnson left and before Jones hired Parcells.

Johnson would get the Texans into the playoffs within 3 years. I'll take it.

At this point, I'd be willing to take anybody as new HC next year. Is anybody's Junior High coach available?

feebleminded
11-25-2005, 11:02 AM
I think Pendry sabotaged Palmer, giving him a ****** o-line and making it look as though it was Palmer's fault.

So they could all get fired???????????????????

touttail
11-25-2005, 11:27 PM
God I would hate to watch , Faggins, Coleman, and PBurn for another season! They are pathetic!

bobby 119C:brickwall

Hervoyel
11-25-2005, 11:42 PM
Thank goodness he WASN'T a fool and didn't take your advice! As for Jimmy Johnson, that would be the stupidest thing he could do. He was run out of Miami for a reason, you know.

I think you should research the circumstances surrounding Jimmy Johnson's time as coach of the Miami Dolphins and his leaving the job before you comment again on it.

Just a suggestion.

Honoring Earl 34
11-26-2005, 08:37 AM
:texflag: Jimmy Johnson got a big boost from the Herschel Walker trade . He built a fine team and probably got shafted out of his place in history by Jerry Jones .
With the Dolphins he had to work around a Dolphin icon in Marino . His draft picks did'nt pan out as well either ... Darrel Gardner 1st rd instead of Leon Lett 5th rd ?.

bckey
11-26-2005, 10:29 AM
I think JJ or whoever takes over the Texans can have a sweet looking draft in 06 with a little manuvering. We already have a high 3rd rounder from New Orleans. We could trade down in the first and pick up at least 2 more high draft picks.

Someone that nobody has mentioned in this draft is Jimmy Williams. If we can somehow land an additional first round pick trading down then we could possibly draft Jimmy Williams and then take the best LT on the board after that. The Texans would come out of the first round set at CB for years (assuming Williams pans out in the pros) and fix a big problem on the OL too. The Texans would still have at least 3 picks (1 in the 2nd 2 in the 3rd) to fill needs at LB, TE, DL, and OL.

By trading down a little the Texans save on the cap by avoiding paying a huge salary to a #1 pick and fill more needs. If the Texans trade down I don't see them taking D'Brick because of the depth of LT in this draft. If they stay in their slot I think they will take D'Brick. Trading down seems like the best option for rebuilding a team.

Kaiser Toro
11-26-2005, 12:07 PM
I think JJ or whoever takes over the Texans can have a sweet looking draft in 06 with a little manuvering. We already have a high 3rd rounder from New Orleans. We could trade down in the first and pick up at least 2 more high draft picks.

Someone that nobody has mentioned in this draft is Jimmy Williams. If we can somehow land an additional first round pick trading down then we could possibly draft Jimmy Williams and then take the best LT on the board after that. The Texans would come out of the first round set at CB for years (assuming Williams pans out in the pros) and fix a big problem on the OL too. The Texans would still have at least 3 picks (1 in the 2nd 2 in the 3rd) to fill needs at LB, TE, DL, and OL.

By trading down a little the Texans save on the cap by avoiding paying a huge salary to a #1 pick and fill more needs. If the Texans trade down I don't see them taking D'Brick because of the depth of LT in this draft. If they stay in their slot I think they will take D'Brick. Trading down seems like the best option for rebuilding a team.

This is a sound draft strategy and rationale.