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cuppacoffee
07-27-2004, 12:46 PM
From Profootballtalk.com rumor mill

"Cole also identifies various backs whom the Dolphins might acquire via a trade, including Tony Hollings of the Texans, Najeh "Dookie" Davenport of the Packers, and Lamar Gordon of the Rams. Hollings is the most enticing of this trio; he was the Texans' second-round pick in last year's supplemental draft, and league sources have in the past verified that his ability justifies the lofty draft status. Still, his future in Houston has been clouded by the unlikely emergence of fellow 2003 rookie Domanick Davis. "

Think they want him bad enough for a #1?
Dont they also have a disgruntled DE Ogenleye (sp?)

Possibilities? idonno:

Story (http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm)

flawedout
07-27-2004, 01:09 PM
i dont mind trading Mack but not hollings, it would be interesting to deal with them because we would pretty much do what we want with the trade seeing as how they are the team in need

aj.
07-27-2004, 01:15 PM
i dont mind trading Mack... Kind of hard to trade a player you don't have.

The Texans are counting on Hollings as quality depth behind DD so I don't think they would consider such a deal. Hollings was a high second rounder so it would take "at least" a first rounder to compensate. The way it looks, the Phins may be picking in the upper half of the first round next year. The only reason a Hollings trade is somewhat intriguing to me is because the guy has done nothing in the NFL and his present value is still based solely on potential. The jury is still out on whether he will be a legit NFL RB or not. But, if they do trade Hollings (which I think is unlikely), they would have to turn right around and start looking for a backup RB again.

Beastlyman2003
07-27-2004, 01:28 PM
dude its probably bull, but just for grins why wouldnt we trade a backup running back for a starting DE then we could move Robaire Smith to NT and put Ogunleye at RE and have Gary Walker at LE. Or for a #1 pick? Long shot, but if true you dont even hesitate.

infantrycak
07-27-2004, 01:35 PM
dude its probably bull, but just for grins why wouldnt we trade a backup running back for a starting DE then we could move Robaire Smith to NT and put Ogunleye at RE and have Gary Walker at LE. Or for a #1 pick? Long shot, but if true you dont even hesitate.

Mainly because Ogunleye wouldn't play DE in our system. He is 255lbs, i.e. the size of our OLB's.

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 01:50 PM
"Cole also identifies various backs whom the Dolphins might acquire via a trade, including Tony Hollings of the Texans, Najeh "Dookie" Davenport of the Packers, and Lamar Gordon of the Rams. Hollings is the most enticing of this trio; he was the Texans' second-round pick in last year's supplemental draft, and league sources have in the past verified that his ability justifies the lofty draft status. Still, his future in Houston has been clouded by the unlikely emergence of fellow 2003 rookie Domanick Davis."The bold part is why Hollings wont be traded, he could challege DD for his starting job next year...

SBTexans08
07-27-2004, 02:02 PM
Ogunleye would def. be an OLB in our system. I say go for it....start negotiations pronto...before training camp starts!! I'd rather have him than any draft picks.

Vinny
07-27-2004, 02:23 PM
Hollings isn't going anywhere. Frankly I think he is our lead-back of the future.

texasguy346
07-27-2004, 02:23 PM
I think its more likely they go after Davenport or perhaps even a William Green. They seem to be in a bind as far as this year goes, but next year with James' interest in returning to Miami I don't see them having a RB problem.

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 02:29 PM
Hollings isn't going anywhere. Frankly I think he is our lead-back of the future.I do, too. I feel Hollings will challenge Davis by the end of the year for the starting job and he could possibly win it next year...

TheOgre
07-27-2004, 02:31 PM
I think it is a possibility too. I am excited about our backfield this year. A lot more so than the past two years.

SESupergenius
07-27-2004, 02:46 PM
I feel Hollings has a lot to prove to be inserted into the starting role. Sure he fast, but he doesn't have all the other intangibles right now that make a great back. Fumbling, pass protection, picking up the blitz are all very important. I just don't think he has that right now. Keep in mind he hasn't played much college HB.

Vinny
07-27-2004, 02:48 PM
Hollings was an option QB in HS so he has run the ball before. I see Dom Davis as a smaller Duce Staley. I don't see too much top end in Davis. I see a Robert Smith or perhaps Michael Bennett type in Hollings.

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 02:56 PM
I see a Robert Smith or perhaps Michael Bennett type in Hollings.I could see the Michael Bennett in Hollings, he is so fast. Look at his highlights from his 4 games in college. All you see are defenders in the bottom corner of the TV...

SESupergenius
07-27-2004, 03:00 PM
Hey, I hope I am wrong. I hope he can catch the ball out to the backfield and pickup the blitz during minicamp and catapult himself into the starting role.

chicagotexan
07-27-2004, 03:11 PM
I do, too. I feel Hollings will challenge Davis by the end of the year for the starting job and he could possibly win it next year...

I agree. I really like DoubleD's work ethic and style, but long term Hollings has more of an upside. I think he'll raise some eyebrows this season. Next year we can deal with the terrible problem of having 2 quality backs. Nice problem.

Mistril48
07-27-2004, 03:15 PM
Davis and Hollings .... nice problem.

Beastlyman2003
07-27-2004, 03:22 PM
OK, V, Fiddy, & Ogre, you are all delusional. How can you say that Hollings is gonna take the job from Domanick? Now im sure that you will come up with just anything that has to do with it but hear this... in Tony Hollings' first start, he gained 26 rushing yards on 13 carries for an average of 2 ypc. Domanick Davis' first start, he gained 129yards on 21 carries for 6.1 ypc and a TD. Im using their first start as an example so you cant say that Domanick had more experience. There is no argument that you can make against the fact that Domanick is the better running back. Mark my words, Tony Hollings will never be more than a backup in Houston, maybe a starter somewhere else, but not here.

Vinny
07-27-2004, 03:23 PM
OK, V, Fiddy, & Ogre, you are all delusional. How can you say that Hollings is gonna take the job from Domanick? Now im sure that you will come up with just anything that has to do with it but hear this... in Tony Hollings' first start, he gained 26 rushing yards on 13 carries for an average of 2 ypc. Domanick Davis' first start, he gained 129yards on 21 carries for 6.1 ypc and a TD. Im using their first start as an example so you cant say that Domanick had more experience. There is no argument that you can make against the fact that Domanick is the better running back. Mark my words, Tony Hollings will never be more than a backup in Houston, maybe a starter somewhere else, but not here.
Tony Hollings was coming of major knee surgery (not a fair sample of touches) and Dom Davis just looks like Duce Staley to me. I think he has limited upside. He will be a good NFL back, but not an elite one. Just my opinion.

Beastlyman2003
07-27-2004, 03:28 PM
Tony Hollings was coming of major knee surgery (not a fair sample of touches) and Dom Davis just looks like Duce Staley to me. I think he has limited upside. He will be a good NFL back, but not an elite one. Just my opinion.
Duce Staley? Duce doesnt have the foot speed or quickness Domanick has. I dont think that you can compare Domanick to any other back in the league. And the argument that Hollings was coming off knee surgery, thats exactly my point! He will never be fully recovered from that type of injury. So he will never be able to carry the load like domanick can. He will probably reinjure it. Domanick is gonna be a star in houston for years to come.

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 03:30 PM
And DD's first start was against the Jets, who had one of the worst run defenses in the league last....
Hollings first start came against the Jags, who had the BEST run defense (yards per carry wise) in the league...
That is an unfair comparision...

Vinny
07-27-2004, 03:32 PM
Duce Staley? Duce doesnt have the foot speed or quickness Domanick has. I dont think that you can compare Domanick to any other back in the league.
Dom and Duce run EXACTLY alike. Dom and Duce both are slashing rb's with limited speed and good hands.

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 03:34 PM
Duce Staley? Duce doesnt have the foot speed or quickness Domanick has. I dont think that you can compare Domanick to any other back in the league. And the argument that Hollings was coming off knee surgery, thats exactly my point! He will never be fully recovered from that type of injury. So he will never be able to carry the load like domanick can. He will probably reinjure it. Domanick is gonna be a star in houston for years to come.Davis doesnt have speed, he has quickness. Too many times last year DD got caught from behind. How can you say the Hollings will never be fully recovered from ACL surgury, do you have some inside info that I dont know about??? And Davis cant carry the load, he gets hurt when he does. Had to leave the Panthers game because of an injury, got hurt during the Falcons game and had to come out for a few plays and then missed the following game against the Jags.

infantrycak
07-27-2004, 03:35 PM
OK, V, Fiddy, & Ogre, you are all delusional. How can you say that Hollings is gonna take the job from Domanick? Now im sure that you will come up with just anything that has to do with it but hear this... in Tony Hollings' first start, he gained 26 rushing yards on 13 carries for an average of 2 ypc. Domanick Davis' first start, he gained 129yards on 21 carries for 6.1 ypc and a TD. Im using their first start as an example so you cant say that Domanick had more experience. There is no argument that you can make against the fact that Domanick is the better running back. Mark my words, Tony Hollings will never be more than a backup in Houston, maybe a starter somewhere else, but not here.

Actually it was worse than that. The second Jax game was his first start and he carried 18 times for 19 yards or 1.1 ypc. Having said that, it is pretty obvious the 2nd Jax game was a complete team melt down with Jax teeing off on the run knowing the 3rd string QB Ragone was not going to be tossing the ball all over the field. In one stretch of several possessions, Hollings got hit 6 times straight deep in the back field--that was an OL problem more than a RB problem. That comparison isn't even close to a reasonable way to view what others were discussing which was potential. I wouldn't venture out to say either will ever be an elite RB. DD has shown he can be a very solid starter. Hollings has potential--let's see what it turns in to--maybe elite.

Beastlyman2003
07-27-2004, 03:36 PM
All im sayin is that domanick will be an elite back by the 2006 season and that he will be a superstar in Houston for years to come.

Boris
07-27-2004, 03:38 PM
I see Dom Davis as a smaller Duce Staley

from the little i've watched Staley, while they both take short steps & have similar frames, DD seems better at setting up his blockers.

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 03:39 PM
All im sayin is that domanick will be an elite back by the 2006 season and that he will be a superstar in Houston for years to come.DD doesnt have the top notch speed to be an ELITE back or a superstar. Do me a favor Beastlyman, name the elite backs in the league for me and I will tell you one thing they all have in common...

Beastlyman2003
07-27-2004, 03:40 PM
what are you saying infantrycak? They were running behind the same line. the personnel was the same! Hollings doesnt have the vision, cutback ability, power, or intangables that Domanick has. He wont be a better back. If he was better, he would be STARTING! Case Closed.

infantrycak
07-27-2004, 03:41 PM
And Davis cant carry the load, he gets hurt when he does.

I would say this statement is a little strong at this point. RB's get injured. His injuries have not been the same injury over and over which would concern me that he was injury prone, they have been all sorts of different little things than come from getting pounded on but don't necessarily indicate being injury prone. Fred Taylor just completed two years without injury after being labelled injury prone.

Personally, I don't care about having one superstar RB and would just as soon have two guys getting 900 yds each as one guy getting 1500 yds and one at 300 yds.

Boris
07-27-2004, 03:42 PM
& DD appears quicker to me also. If he's not careful with his work-out regimen by year 4 he may lose that advantage by bulking up too much.

Beastlyman2003
07-27-2004, 03:43 PM
Top 5 Running Backs
1. LaDanian Tomlinson
2. Jamal Lewis
3. Priest Holmes
4. Shawn Alexander
5. Fred Taylor(when healthy)

Jamal Lewis, Shawn Alexander, & Fred Taylor DO NOT have elite speed.

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 03:45 PM
in Tony Hollings' first start, he gained 26 rushing yards on 13 carries for an average of 2 ypc. Domanick Davis' first start, he gained 129yards on 21 carries for 6.1 ypc and a TD
got my stats:
The Jets had the 28th ranked run defense yards wise and the 18th ranked yards per carry wise...

The Jags had the 2nd ranked run defense yards wise and the 1st ranked defense yards per carry wise... (and has infantrycak said the O-line was horrible that game and Ragone was starting)

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 03:46 PM
Top 5 Running Backs
1. LaDanian Tomlinson
2. Jamal Lewis
3. Priest Holmes
4. Shawn Alexander
5. Fred Taylor(when healthy)

Jamal Lewis, Shawn Alexander, & Fred Taylor DO NOT have elite speed.yeah, they do. Gimme a minute and I will show you...

Beastlyman2003
07-27-2004, 03:48 PM
When Domanick played the Jags, he had 76 yards in the first half! What else ya got?

infantrycak
07-27-2004, 03:50 PM
what are you saying infantrycak? They were running behind the same line. the personnel was the same!

But the available game plan, the level of competition and the performance of that personnel was all different. Jets--1st string QB that the week before had thrown for 371 yds, against on of the bottom five run D teams and a very good outing by the OL vs. the 1st start for a rookie 3rd string QB (so obviously the game plan is incredibly simplified and run oriented giving the D an advantage to stack the box) against a #1 run D and the OL performed for crud having one of their three worst days on the season (the others being NO and TB where combined they gave up 13 of the 36 sacks given up all year i.e. almost 40% of the sacks given up all year) and were rather than opening holes for the RB were opening holes for the DL and LB's, oh and let's throw in the not fully recovered from knee surgery yet--seems pretty simple, not a fair comparison for judging the entire NFL career of two RB's

Hollings doesnt have the vision, cutback ability, power, or intangables that Domanick has. He wont be a better back. If he was better, he would be STARTING! Case Closed.

No if he was healed he might be starting. Given your inclination to use such an unfair comparison to judge the two backs, I think I will stick with the Capers, Palmer & Casserly on thinking Hollings has potential.

texasguy346
07-27-2004, 03:50 PM
I don't think anyone is suggesting that Davis isn't a very good back. However, he isn't among the elite backs in the league. He is a rookie back who got over a 1000 yards in his first season. It is a great accomplishment, but it is by no means prolific or amazing. Lots of backs came into the league with a splash, and then had no impact from then on in the game. Hollings value is based solely on potential at the moment. It's not a stretch to think that Hollings' potential is slightly higher than Davis'. Given that Hollings weaknesses can be corrected with playing time, coaching, etc., but speed cannot be taught. That is DD's main weakness. I tend to agree that neither will be the elite running back for the next decade, but I think that it is quite possible that Hollings would push DD for playing time now that he's a year removed from the ACL injury. All in all we have two good RBs who both have good potential. On a side note to address Beastlyman's comment about 'he's a starter end of story' remark I need only remind you that Emmitt Smith is the starter heading into camp for the Cardinals. I don't think anyone here thinks he will remain the starter when the season begins. I do not contend that Hollings will be the starter this year for the Texans. I am just simply illustrating that being listed as the starter in training camp doesn't mean very much.

Lucky
07-27-2004, 03:54 PM
Dom and Duce run EXACTLY alike. Dom and Duce both are slashing rb's with limited speed and good hands.
To be fair to Duce, he was a much more explosive back prior to his Y2K foot injury. He single handedly destroyed the cowgirls earlier that year.

Back on topic, Davis is the starting RB on the Texans and Hollings will have to show something extraordinary to take the job. Maybe he will, that would be a good situation to have.

Miami isn't giving up a #1 for Hollings. Or trading Adewale Ogunleye for Tony. Not now. Not going to happen, people.

infantrycak
07-27-2004, 03:55 PM
When Domanick played the Jags, he had 76 yards in the first half! What else ya got?

Um, no he didn't. Domanick still was not the starter yet and had 16 carries for 53 yds on the day for an average of 3.3 ypc--one of his bottom three performances on the year ypc wise.

And when DD played the Jags he had Carr throwing for 234 yds. When Hollings played them, Ragone threw for 71.

Beastlyman2003
07-27-2004, 03:58 PM
yes but still the same defense and domanick had better yards and wasnt even starting! Hollings had the carries all to himself and couldnt muster 20 yards on the day behind the same o-line, and against the same defense.

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 03:59 PM
yeah, they do. Gimme a minute and I will show you...Jamal Lewis last year broke off 82, 72, 63, 52, 35, 28, 25, 23, 21 yard runs

Shawn Alexander, although I think Green and Portis is better then him, last year broke off 55, 44, 35, 25, 23, 21 yard runs

Fred Taylor, although I think Green and Portis is better then him, last year broke off 42, 32, 28, 27, 25 yard runs

You can make a case that Taylor doesnt have break away speed, but I didnt think he was going to be in your top 5....

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 04:02 PM
yes but still the same defense and domanick had better yards and wasnt even starting! Hollings had the carries all to himself and couldnt muster 20 yards on the day behind the same o-line, and against the same defense.Have you been reading. Ragone was starting that game and had 70 yards passing!!!!! It was a practice for the Jags....

texasguy346
07-27-2004, 04:03 PM
I think the key point here is that with Carr the Texans offense wasn't one dimensional. With Ragone, the offense was one dimensional. Thus, allowing the defense to key in and stop the run. Essientially, the Jags had 8 men in the box on every down compared to Davis facing 7 men in the box the majority of the time.

Beastlyman2003
07-27-2004, 04:03 PM
that doesnt prove that they are fast, it proves they had excellent downfield blocking.

texasguy346
07-27-2004, 04:07 PM
I believe that Ragone had 51 yards rushing as well. As well as 2 fumbles, of which one he lost. Hollings also had a fumble that he lost too. The Jags defense had 3 sacks, 3 forced fumbles, and one interception.

As for the game in Houston. Both Davis and Mack had fumbles that they lost, and Mack had 39 yards rushing and a TD. Does that make him better than Hollings & Davis as well? An elite back perhaps?

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 04:12 PM
that doesnt prove that they are fast, it proves they had excellent downfield blocking.Yeah, but you have to be fast to get downfield and get by those blocks. DD wasnt that fast, against the Bengals he broke that 50 yarder but couldnt get pass AJ and Gaffney's blocks downfield. They were blocking for DD and kept pushing there guys back but DD couldnt get in front of the blocks and a guy caught him from behind....

Beastlyman2003
07-27-2004, 04:12 PM
How did Stacy Mack get into this conversation? and YES Stacy Mack is better than Hollings RIGHT NOW, maybe not in the future, but now.

texasguy346
07-27-2004, 04:14 PM
I include Mack to point out that its deceptive to try and point to one game as a precursor for an entire career. Just as it is deceptive to think that one 1000 yard season means Davis will become an elite back. The point is they both have potential. It's just that, at the moment, Hollings' upside seems to be greater. It's not a knock on Davis at all.

Beastlyman2003
07-27-2004, 04:17 PM
AJ and Gaff where NOT blocking 50 yards DOWNFIELD! thats just stupid. he got caught from behind by a 180lb CB. And DD isnt the fastest, but he has SOME speed. even the fastest backs can get caught from behind. Someone is always faster.

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 04:19 PM
AJ and Gaff where NOT blocking 50 yards DOWNFIELD! thats just stupid. he got caught from behind by a 180lb CB. And DD isnt the fastest, but he has SOME speed. even the fastest backs can get caught from behind. Someone is always faster.Does anybody have that clip???? Because I clearly remember AJ driving his man downfield and DD not being able to blow by him. Maybe Gaff wasnt blocking, but I know AJ was blocking his man downfield...

Beastlyman2003
07-27-2004, 04:21 PM
Oh im sure AJ was blocking downfield, but there is no way that he was blocking his man 56 yards down field.

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 04:29 PM
Oh im sure AJ was blocking downfield, but there is no way that he was blocking his man 56 yards down field.The way I remember the play: AJ was moved in motion across the formation, i think, to the left from the right to help the TE's block down on the D-line, LBs, and the other saftey coming down into the box. It was 3rd and 1. Davis got by one guy and took off down field, but not before AJ took off and was chasing the saftey, that hadnt come down to blitz, to block him for DD. The saftey was taking an angle up the field because AJ was there and he knew he couldnt get DD with AJ in the way so he saw DD taking an angle towards the sideline and ran upfield to cut DD so he would have to go back to the middle of the field but AJ was too fast, caught up with him and was blocking him 40 yards down the field. DD couldnt get by AJ in time and the CB caught him from behind....

Beastlyman2003
07-27-2004, 04:31 PM
Dude, thats a what i call a photographic memory! but anyways, dude, you may be right but im just trying to tell yall, we have not seen anything from Hollings to say that he will take Domanicks job.

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 04:35 PM
Dude, thats a what i call a photographic memory! but anyways, dude, you may be right but im just trying to tell yall, we have not seen anything from Hollings to say that he will take Domanicks job.I am saying all of this on potential. Yeah, we do have to see what Hollings can do but the Texans had to have seen something to give up a 2nd round pick to get him. Hollings has all the qualities, prototypical size, great speed and great acceleration, now we just have to see if he can bring everything together. I cant wait for camp!!!!

Beastlyman2003
07-27-2004, 04:37 PM
AGREED! I have tix to the Dolphins Scrimage!

Ediddy73
07-27-2004, 04:38 PM
The way I remember the play: AJ was moved in motion across the formation, i think, to the left from the right to help the TE's block down on the D-line, ..
must have been one of the 6 times we actually used motion year last year.

Ibar_Harry
07-27-2004, 04:44 PM
What's funny about all of this is that DD has the ES intangibles. He's not suppose to be able to get it done, but he does. Did ES dominate every game he played, NO. Will DD dominate every game he plays, NO.

BUT IT IS A STATED FACT THAT THE COACHING STAFF HAS CHANGED THE BLOCKING SCHEME TO BETTER TAKE ADVANTAGE OF DD's SKILL TO QUICKLY SEE HOLES WHERE EVER THEY ARE FOR A QUICK BURST THROUGH AND GET HIM IN THE SECONDARY WHERE HE RUNS OVER PEOPLE. IT SEEMS TO BE THEY HAVE VOTED AND RIGHT NOW DD IS THE WINNER.

Beastlyman2003
07-27-2004, 04:48 PM
EXCELLENT POINT! I should have said that and this discussion would have been over a long time ago.

Beastlyman2003
07-27-2004, 04:49 PM
They wouldnt change the offense to suit Domanick if they thought Tony would run away with the job.

Vinny
07-27-2004, 04:50 PM
Fred Taylor DO NOT have elite speed.

Are we talking about the same Fred Taylor? Fred Taylor is a speed RB with great size. He has the ability to take any given play to the house. Taylor can cut on a dime, is a dynamic presence between the tackles. One of his most dynamic traits is is speed and explosion. You lose crediblity points on that one.

Beastlyman2003
07-27-2004, 04:55 PM
What Do You Mean I Lost Credability Points? Me And Fiddy Were In Agreement. And His Hamstring Has A History Of Naggin Injuries, And Has Decreased The Speed And Explosion That He Might Have Had At Florida, But No More.

infantrycak
07-27-2004, 04:57 PM
Well have a pat on the back fest if y'all like, but that isn't exactly what happened. 1st Joe Pendry was brought in to coach the interior linemen. He and the other O-line coaches decided with Capers that zone blocking would get the potential from the athletic linemen on the roster and hopefully allow them not only to open holes but make blocks at the second level. When the original announcement was made that was the main selling point along with the comparison to Denver and their ability to get a whole bunch of RB's to produce. It was then noted that DD's patience, decisiveness and burst to the hole would play along well in that system. Hollings' acceleration should also play well in the system.

F-minus67
07-27-2004, 05:01 PM
I doubt that the fins would trade for hollings due to the fact that travis minor is almost the same as him except for the killer speed that hollings has. But then again they traded a 2nd rounder for feeley. and they would have to change their offense around because williams was a masher between the tackles, so most likely they will sign mack or the lions old rb stewart.

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 05:06 PM
I think Taylor has lost a little speed because of the hamstring injuries, but I only saw him 2 times last year so I may not be the best person to pass a judgement on him....

Vinny
07-27-2004, 05:07 PM
I think Taylor has lost a little speed because of the hamstring injuries, but I only saw him 2 times last year so I may not be the best person to pass a judgement on him....
He sure looked plenty fast on that 62-yard run against us.

Beastlyman2003
07-27-2004, 05:16 PM
Well, i had a nice conversation(while keeping my mind off work) i gotta go home(where i do not own a cpu). So i want yall to know im not conceding my argument, just gotta go home. Later!

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
07-27-2004, 05:18 PM
Top 5 Running Backs
1. LaDanian Tomlinson
2. Jamal Lewis
3. Priest Holmes
4. Shawn Alexander
5. Fred Taylor(when healthy)

Jamal Lewis, Shawn Alexander, & Fred Taylor DO NOT have elite speed.Jamal Lewis doesnt have elite speed? He's probably the fastest RB of those guys you listed.

dalemurphy
07-27-2004, 05:24 PM
Duce Staley was pretty darn good before he injured his foot 4 years ago. He's lost explosiveness since then.

Frankly, who cares if a RB can break run 80 yards or not... That's not why you run the ball... Dominick Davis has Emmitt Smith speed, strength, and probably quickness- referring to when Emmitt was young. Now, he may not have the vision or some of the intangibles, but I certainly haven't seen anything in him to say his potential is limited.

That being said, Hollings could be a special player, and I'd hate to give him up, especially if the organization believes in him. We certainly don't need Ogunleye and we frankly don't need more draft picks. It's time for these guys to learn to win on the field together. While this team may be a year away from competing at a consistantly elite level, the talent is now in place. Now let's get them out there and see what they can do for a couple of years.

scourge
07-27-2004, 05:41 PM
Beastly probably thought that Gary Brown was elite, too...

bull pen tyler
07-27-2004, 05:47 PM
Why would Miami trade one of the best DE's in the NFL for a RB that hasn't proven anyting ? That would make absolutely no sense. The texans would have to offer more than just Hollings in a potential trade, and I don't think the Texans need another OLB that bad. That's why we traded our 2nd and 3rd picks to draft Babin remember ?

Mistril48
07-27-2004, 05:53 PM
... Joe Pendry was brought in to coach the interior linemen. He and the other O-line coaches decided with Capers that zone blocking would get the potential from the athletic linemen on the roster and hopefully allow them not only to open holes but make blocks at the second level. When the original announcement was made that was the main selling point along with the comparison to Denver and their ability to get a whole bunch of RB's to produce. It was then noted that DD's patience, decisiveness and burst to the hole would play along well in that system. Hollings' acceleration should also play well in the system.
Good explanation, but I would add a point. While we most often mention Denver, I believe the Ravens also employ a zone blocking O-line (generally), with tremendous success. Also, on defense I believe the number of teams playing 3-4 has increased, with more teams saying they will imploy the 3-4 some of the time (the Raiders and C'boys, I believe). With a variable front (4-3 shifting to 3-4), it might be easier for O-linemen to pick up their assignments.

I hope someone with more understanding of O-line play than me will comment on the point that the fluid assignments of a zone blocking scheme help when faced with a shifting defensive front.

SBTexans08
07-27-2004, 05:57 PM
So what if he only gained just over 1,000 yards. You need to take into consideration that he started late in the season...well not late but only played 10 games. With those ten games, that's averaging 100 yards per game and had he played all 16 he probably would have made 1400-1600 yards....if 1600 isn't among the elite...I don't know what is. Sure he didn't make that amount but his average shows that he might have.

Dominic has earned my respect and he's used to being the under dog...that just makes him work harder (from interviews I've seen or read). Either way...I'm glad we have this to debate about......two solid runners. :headbang:

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 06:04 PM
With those ten games, that's averaging 100 yards per game and had he played all 16 he probably would have made 1400-1600 yards....if 1600 isn't among the elite...I don't know what is. Sure he didn't make that amount but his average shows that he might have.DD averaged 84 yards per start, and that would be around 1300 yards over a 16 game season....

TheOgre
07-27-2004, 06:17 PM
Those of you that are Oilers fans. Remember how Gary Brown had just over 1000 yards with only 8 starts in 1993? He had an awesome 5.1 YPC average that season. The rest of his career, he only had one season where he averaged more than 4.0 YPC (4.3 in 1998).

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/BrowGa00.htm

My point is to be realistic about DD. He could be a star, but one season doesn't make him so. Gary Brown is a perfect example of that.


*edit* Corrected an erroneous statement

infantrycak
07-27-2004, 06:23 PM
Ogre or someone else with good Oilers knowledge--was that more his fault or did the line or something else fail in the subsequent seasons?

And by the way--your link says he averaged 4.3 ypc and got over 1000 yards in 1998.

Vinny
07-27-2004, 06:36 PM
Gary Brown had two 1000 yard seasons. One in Houston and one in NY. Brown had excellent O-lines here featuring Brad Hopkins, Kevin Donnalley, Irv Eatman, and Hall-of-Famer Bruce Matthews. The line was not the problem with Brown. Davis and Brown is probably an outstanding comparison.

texasguy346
07-27-2004, 06:37 PM
I don't think anyone here is knocking DD, but there is definately an attempt to keep his accomplishments in perspective. He did a tremendous job in carrying the load last year, and Hollings will only help alleviate that load this year. Is Hollings or Davis worthy of such high praise early on? No, but being its a Texans message board a bit of 'homerism' clouds all of our perspectives. People are no doubt excited by Hollings potential when watching him perform in college, and people are no doubt excited given Davis performance last season. Let's not be hasty and annoint either of them as a "Elite" running back yet. The preseason will be a good determining factor for Hollings, and if he performs well then the regular season as well. When you have two viable options at any position its natural for their to be competition over who deserves the top spot. All in all I think "Nice problem to have" is the quote that best sums it up.


PS By 'homerism' I didn't mean this.
http://www.fortunecity.de/spielberg/montyp/289/wp_homer_bkg.jpg

scourge
07-27-2004, 07:09 PM
Davis and Brown is probably an outstanding comparison.

that was my thinking when i had previously stated that Beastly probably thought that Brown was elite too. Brown had 1,002 yards in just 8 starts. Very close to DD's stats. Lets just hope that DD ends up being the better of the two.
As far as the DD vs TH debate, Ive been saying that TH will eventually be our starter since last years preseason. Last year he was just getting over a serious knee injury. With all this time to fully heal up, Im really thinking of this as his rookie season. He will be making a push for the starter job this time next year. And as long as DD continues to do well, its probably his job to lose. Dont get me wrong, I like DD a lot, he has a very similar build to Emmitt. Whether he can consistently break tackles like 22 could and remain healthy remains to be seen. I just think that Hollings has far more potential.

texman8
07-27-2004, 07:48 PM
Trading Hollings will not be the smart thing to do. Do you really want J. Wells to be the backup? Great pic of Homer, texasguy.

aj.
07-27-2004, 08:14 PM
Ogre or someone else with good Oilers knowledge--was that more his fault or did the line or something else fail in the subsequent seasons? Gary Brown had his good year when Lo got hurt in that bizarre '93 season. They broke up the team in '94. Brown benefitted greatly from the R&S system. The Oilers led the league in pass attempts for something like 4 straight seasons and defenses never played to stop the Oilers running game because they were too worried about Hill, Givins, Duncan, and Slaughter. Moon was throwing more than 600 times per season back then. Lo had over a grand one season too and he and Pinkett combined for over a grand a couple other years. They may have somewhat similar styles but I don't think these Gary Brown and DD comparisons are all that relevant because the systems they were in are about as 180 out as you can get. Plus, Gary Brown was a 230 lb. RB who could take and dish a helluva lot more pounding than DD.

I hope all this Hollings optimism comes to fruition. A few good games against the likes of Vandy and Kentucky or whoever it was, and a year of spot play and rehab here doesn't give me a whole lot of data points. What I saw last year was a guy with little vision, drive, or cutback ability... unable to function between the tackles (yes, because of the knee). He did show great speed around the corner a few times on the toss-sweeps, but as I've said many times before he gets a rain check for last season because of the rehab. This year we will see whether he's going to be a legit NFL back or not. I hope he does emerge as a serious threat to take DD's job because if that happens, it's nothing but good for the Texans.

Grid
07-27-2004, 09:47 PM
I dunno.. im pretty high on Hollings too.. but also, I think Davis is the man and can probably hold that starting spot for many seasons to come.

Hollings is definatly an enticing possibility for us, but do we need a "change of pace" back that is hardly a change of pace? Id rather see us get another quality player, and a draft pick.. and get us a nice BIG north and south runner in next years draft.. someone who could help out davis in goal line situations, and be an actual change of pace.

on the other hand, getting rid of hollings leaves us with who as a backup? Wells? Davis was injured in like 3 games last season.. so I think its safe to say that he is gonna need someone who can spell him at times.. and I dont think wells is it.

infantrycak
07-27-2004, 10:16 PM
Id rather see us get another quality player, and a draft pick.. and get us a nice BIG north and south runner in next years draft.. someone who could help out davis in goal line situations, and be an actual change of pace.

Can you point to a specific set of downs that Davis had a problem at the goal line last year--particularly where it was his fault rather than a blocking break down?

FYI--the two highest RB's for TD's in a season are Holmes--5' 9" 213lbs and Smith 5' 10" 209lbs--seems like talent (and good blocking) rather than size is the key to TD's.

Panther5407
07-27-2004, 10:22 PM
I'd keep Hollings. Trading him will only help out another AFC team. and you dont wanna do that.

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 10:44 PM
I'd keep Hollings. Trading him will only help out another AFC team. and you dont wanna do that.There are hundreds of reasons to keep Hollings, but that is not one. You cant worry about trading within the conference because the only time you make a deal is when you are sure that you are getting the better end of the deal. With your thinking we would not have Jason Babin or Tony Hollings because we had to make a deal with Oakland to get the pick we used for Hollings...

Texansbacker
07-27-2004, 10:53 PM
Wow, I can't believe the position many of you have taken on Dominick Davis. Comparing him to Gary Brown? The same Gary Brown who played behind a stellar offensive line in mid-season stride?!? The same Gary Brown who never met a donut he never liked?

C'mon, and be for real.

As far as Hollings, I personally never saw him run in college, and frankly it doesn't matter, I saw him last year and he never looked like much to me. I bet you could line up Jamal Lord, pitch him the ball, and he could run around the corner and be as effective or better than Hollings did last year (I know he is coming back from injury). Potential smopential. Time will tell, and I hope I am wrong. The coachs and management are obviously going to give Hollings the benefit of the doubt because they gave up a high second rounder for him but I really don't think he will be traded to Miami before the season.

Anyway, my point is, DD, for a fourth rounder drafted to be a kick return specialist (are those guys usually slow?) inserted mid-season as the starting running back for the Texans and averaging approximately 100 yards should EARN you some respect before people start tearing you down. The guy was a rookie without the benefit of training camp experince and DD was tearing up some good competition. The guy always seemed to be running hard and over people with great vision between the tackles.

Everyone can talk fantasy about what could happen, I could start listing Biakabutuka's, and KiJana Carters, and many others in regards to unseen potential.

Dominick has shown to be productive, a quick study, exhibits a great work ethic, a hard nose runner, keeps his legs pumping, great vision, quick feet, and perhaps he is not the fastest in the 100 yard dash but 4 rushes of 25 yards will still get the Texans in the end zone.

Mark my words that DD, with the benefit of last years experience along with a full training camp this year, combined with the physical improvements of a NFL offseason, will make DD, and the Texans offense a force in the league.

Lastly, don't forget Dominick is also a great receiver out of the backfield!! And don't even give me the Carr used him as a crutch and stunted his potential.

So keep Gary Brown out of the discussion and in the donut shops and recognize the contribution that DD has made to the Texans (for me as a fan, the excitement of a rushing touchdown and a few W's in the win loss. I sincerely hope Tony Hollings errupts into a great back also, but for now, the man who has proven a winner in my book is Dominck Davis.

GO DD!

Vinny
07-27-2004, 11:03 PM
I think most people are comparing production and the similar yards pumped out when Brown got his first taste of starting, not builds or anything else. Players are what they are despite what we want them to be. This has been a good discussion and there have been lots of nice personal insights in this thread. Its a good thing.

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 11:08 PM
...C'mon, and be for real...

....Anyway, my point is, DD, for a fourth rounder drafted to be a kick return specialist (are those guys usually slow?) inserted mid-season as the starting running back for the Texans and averaging approximately 100 yards should EARN you some respect before people start tearing you down. The guy was a rookie without the benefit of training camp experince and DD was tearing up some good competition. The guy always seemed to be running hard and over people with great vision between the tackles....

....Dominick has shown to be productive, a quick study, exhibits a great work ethic, a hard nose runner, keeps his legs pumping, great vision, quick feet, and perhaps he is not the fastest in the 100 yard dash but 4 rushes of 25 yards will still get the Texans in the end zone.... We are being for real. Olandis Gary had about the same stats in about the same number of games.

Kick returners arent 'burners,' that just have great vision. And did anybody read when I posted that DD didnt average 100 yards per game!!!!!!! He averaged 84 yards per start and 74 yards per game!!!!!! And when DD has 4 rushes and each get around 25 yards, PM me and I will post an apology for DD.

Wolf
07-27-2004, 11:26 PM
It has been a good debate that I have read.. First off I like DD.. I like that he runs hard and seems to fall forward when he gets tackled.. now for people to say elite.. no.. and I am not going to say Hollings is going to be elite either. Both backs bring something unique to the table

To play Devil's advocate here and add to the debate....
Is DD that good or is it that he is the best we have seen in a Texan's uniform so our expectations of him unrealistic?
kinda like what Billy Miller was to us in our 1st season.. (BTW I like Billy too)

I mention this,because DD ,eventhough winning the rookie of the year, was way behind in the probowl race (it is narrowed given williams retired and portis is in the NFC now)

Fiddy
07-27-2004, 11:31 PM
I mention this,because DD ,eventhough winning the rookie of the year, was way behind in the probowl race (it is narrowed given williams retired and portis is in the NFC now)He still will have a hard time. Jamal Lewis, Fred Taylor, Priest Holmes, whoever takes over the Broncos job are canadaties, and LT better get in this year...

BornOrange
07-28-2004, 12:28 AM
I just can't wait to see how it all plays out this year. Davis had a good first year last year, now we get to see how he will do over a full year. Another first season that compares to Davis was that of Rodney Thomas, who gained over 900 yards but then lost his job to Eddie George. I'm not saying that Davis = Thomas because I think Davis will have a better NFL career than Thomas, but it remains to be seen. I do know that Davis really stepped up last year and that if it wasn't for him, the Texans would have had a very dismal year and we wouldn't have anywhere near the same optimism for the 2004 season.

Tony Hollings will also make things interesting this year. He hasn't had much experience at running back, but Casserly and the scouting staff know a thing or two about talent so I have to assume that if Hollings is healthy he will be a pretty good RB. As just about everyone around here knows, it is the second season after knee surgery when a player will have his full speed and strength back, so the Hollings that we saw last year hopefully isn't the Hollings we will see this year. Hollings should still be developing as a RB just because he hasn't had the reps, especially in the passing game where he has to pick up the blitz. Regardless, we should finally get an idea this season about what kind of talent we have in Tony Hollings.

I think the RB position is very symbolic of the entire Texans team this year. This third year is the first year the Texans have enough talent and depth to be an average team in the NFL. It will be exciting to see how players like Davis, Hollings, Carr, Johnson, Gaffney, Joppru, Wand, Pitts, Peek, Babin, Robinson develop. All 11 of those guys were drafted by the Texans and should see quite a bit of playing time this year. If they play well, this could be a year we all remember for a long time.......the year the Texans served notice that they would be a factor from now on.

nunusguy
07-28-2004, 07:00 AM
Cass is a fun guy to follow because of some of the unpredictable picks he makes
and he's a real gambler. But this Hollings pick was a real reach that I think may
exceed his grasp by a mile. He used what turned out to be a near first round pick for some guy that had 4 good games in college as a RB. That's it - 4 games. Period. Then he blew out his knee and really hasn't played much since
then (2002) - took all of last year to rehab. McGhee from Miami U. didn't go much higher than this guy and he was a top 5 and established as the best RB in
college before his knee injury. With the emergance of DD, if we could somehow
get a 2 from the Fins for Hollings - take it and run !

rittenhouserobz
07-28-2004, 10:00 AM
He still will have a hard time. Jamal Lewis, Fred Taylor, Priest Holmes, whoever takes over the Broncos job are canadaties, and LT better get in this year...

Fred Taylor will be passed by DD this year. This is my prediction. KC's OL is beginning to lose players. Holmes' yards are a directly proportional to the OL's performance. LT has even less offensive weapons on his offense now. I think DD has better than average odds of getting to the pro-bowl.

Vinny
07-28-2004, 10:04 AM
Fred Taylor is one of the most gifted blends of size and speed in the NFL. Davis will not all of a sudden become more gifted. Ladanian is on a historic rushing pace. Tomlinson is 491 yards off Jim Brown's pace through 48 games, and 17 behind Walter Payton's. It's one thing to have confidence in fellow Texans but when you say Dom Davis is going to be better than Tomlinson you are saying he is on Jim Brown's or Walter Payton's production level.

texasguy346
07-28-2004, 10:06 AM
LT also has Good Ol' Marty as his head coach, and more than likely will start the season with a rookie QB under center. What does all that add up to? A run first offense. He had an awesome year last year behind a patch-work offensive line. Just imagine what the guy could do behind a Denver or KC type O-Line. That being said, SD doesn't have a great O-Line, but it should be better than last year. Marty is a coach that consistently relies on the run, and LT will see plenty of carries and get plenty of yards. Don't write in DD as a Pro Bowler just yet.

beerlover
07-28-2004, 10:36 AM
Better late than never....has Hollings been traded yet idonno: If he has been good luck in Finn Land....what? You mean its all just rumor and idle speculation :idea:

Seriously how ridiculous. C'mon the Finns don't want Hollings anymore than that nunsguy. They should focus on trying to trade for Rudy out of Cincy or Marshall Faulk from St. Louis.

What did Dominack Davis do to get involved in this :crazy: remember he was a 4th round draft pick, mostly because of injurys during his college career @ LSU. However in the Texans system, with the revamped line and desire to run first/throw second Dominack Davis stands as good as chance as anybody to make the Pro-Bowl, only time will tell.

One might suppose a Finn 2nd round draft pick in 2005 will be worth close to a Raider 2nd round draft pick in 2004. Keep dreaming...............................

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 10:42 AM
Cass is a fun guy to follow because of some of the unpredictable picks he makes and he's a real gambler. But this Hollings pick was a real reach that I think may exceed his grasp by a mile.Did you read the first page???
Hollings is the most enticing of this trio; he was the Texans' second-round pick in last year's supplemental draft, and league sources have in the past verified that his ability justifies the lofty draft statusaccording to people from the league, his ability justifies him as a 2nd round selection.....

Vinny
07-28-2004, 10:45 AM
Also, the pick was originally a third round pick and an extra "expansion" pick that was traded to the Raiders for their second round choice in a later year. When we drafted Hollings the pick was something like 6 slots variance from our 3rd rounder. At the time we had Allen and Wells. I find it hard to be critical of taking a back with this pick especially since it was an extra pick and we never lost our second rounder.

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 10:46 AM
HE PLAYED IN FOUR GAMES!!! That is not enough info tho validate A HIGH SECOND ROUND PICK!!! Tony Hollings WILL NOT start in Houston...EVER.

Vinny
07-28-2004, 10:48 AM
HE PLAYED IN FOUR GAMES!!! That is not enough info tho validate A HIGH SECOND ROUND PICK!!! Tony Hollings WILL NOT start in Houston...EVER.I guess you know more than our team of scouts? Hollings was an Option QB in HS and he converted to DB at Georgia Tech. He converted BACK to offense the year before we drafted him.

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 10:49 AM
HE PLAYED IN FOUR GAMES!!! That is not enough info tho validate A HIGH SECOND ROUND PICK!!! Tony Hollings WILL NOT start in Houston...EVER.He is coming off of an ACL surgery. What do you want from him.

His ability justfies him as a 2nd round pick, remember that everyone thought Oakland was still going to be good a it was going to be a late 2nd round pick that would be as good as a early 3rd....

And he has already started a game for Houston...

Wolf
07-28-2004, 10:55 AM
Geeze lets tell Jamal lord not to even show up either. he hasn't played defensive back.. or lets just let coleman go being he hasn't played much safety..

The Texas took Hollings on what our scouts saw as in speed/ability/vison/talent etc..etc..

maybe it was 4 games at RB but they saw something in him and I am sure they looked at how he did in game film as a defensive back/special teams for GT
http://ramblinwreck.collegesports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/hollings_tony00.html


I am not going to say he is going to be elite.. but geeze let the man heal and lets see what he can do before judgement

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 10:57 AM
SO youre telling me that you would use pretty much a first round pick on a running back, that played in four games at running back in his WHOLE CAREER, BEFORE he tore his knee up? And no, option QB is not the same as running back, because in High School football when running an option or wishbone offense, the QB gets the advantage to pitch the ball if he doesnt have alot of green in front of him. All it is, is either pitching the ball, or sprinting downfield. And besides, in HS, all you need to be a star is speed. And at GT, he was a backup DB. Granted, the four games he played running back, IN COLLEGE, where pretty good, he will end up being a waste of a high second round choice.

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 11:00 AM
SO youre telling me that you would use pretty much a first round pick on a running back, that played in four games at running back in his WHOLE CAREER, BEFORE he tore his knee up? And no, option QB is not the same as running back, because in High School football when running an option or wishbone offense, the QB gets the advantage to pitch the ball if he doesnt have alot of green in front of him. All it is, is either pitching the ball, or sprinting downfield. And besides, in HS, all you need to be a star is speed. And at GT, he was a backup DB. Granted, the four games he played running back, IN COLLEGE, where pretty good, he will end up being a waste of a high second round choice.McGahee hasnt even played in one, and everyone thought that the Oakland pick was going to be late in the 2nd round.

his games in college were pretty good??? 160 yards and 4 TDs per game. His college games were unbelievable...

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:05 AM
McGahee hasnt even played in one, and everyone thought that the Oakland pick was going to be late in the 2nd round.

his games in college were pretty good??? 160 yards and 4 TDs per game. His college games were unbelievable...
the key words in your reply, FIDDY, are COLLEGE GAMES! He didnt do SQUAT in THE PROS when he got some carries all season last year, not just against the Jags, but every time he ran. AND DONT SAY, "He was just coming off knee surgery." Because you will be saying that forever because nobody EVER FULLY RECOVERS from an ACL tear. NEVER.

TheOgre
07-28-2004, 11:07 AM
It wasn't his production alone that led scouts to like Hollings. He has tremendous speed and quickness. If he could be a poor man's Barry Sanders with more speed, I would be all about that.

ps Anyone know if Sanders has the NFL record for most 30+ yard runs that didn't go for a TD? It seems like the guy got caught inside the 10 on long runs all the time.

Wolf
07-28-2004, 11:09 AM
top of that McGahee wouldn't have been a starter if it weren't for Gore's injuries

as vinny pointed.. it was a 3rd round supplemental pick that got traded up with the raiders for their #2 pick Hense the raiders just came off a superbowl appearance so who would have known at the time that they would collapse like they did ..At the time of the trade it was a good thing.

If the Texans knew that it would be the 34 or so pick instead of around 60 who knows ... we might have used our regular pick. instead of supplement..

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 11:09 AM
the key words in your reply, FIDDY, are COLLEGE GAMES! He didnt do SQUAT when he got some carries all season last year, not just against the Jags, but every time he ran. AND DONT SAY, "He was just coming off knee surgery." Because you will be saying that forever because nobody EVER FULLY RECOVERS from an ACL tear. NEVER.Do you remember the Kansas City game? Because Hollings took 3 straight pitches and got about 9 yards a pop. Yeah, then he fumbled in the 3rd quarter and Capers took him out but I didnt like the draw play for him. Didnt Jamal Lewis tear his ACL 3 years ago??? He looked pretty darn good last year....

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:11 AM
NO WAY he could be a poor mans Barry. There are a few major differences where Barry and Domanick will always get the best of him.....quickness, agility, vision, and cutback ability. Of those abilities, Hollings may have quickness. All Tony Hollings is, is speed. You need more to be a quality RB.

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:14 AM
The reason Lewis got so many yards was because he got more than 30 carries on more than a couple occasions. ALSO, the ravens passing game did not exist untill very late in the season.

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:15 AM
Also, KC had one of the worst run defenses in the league. And he got pitches when the defense was spread out.

Wolf
07-28-2004, 11:16 AM
that is because he played against the browns twice :D

Vinny
07-28-2004, 11:17 AM
the key words in your reply, FIDDY, are COLLEGE GAMES! He didnt do SQUAT in THE PROS when he got some carries all season last year, not just against the Jags, but every time he ran. AND DONT SAY, "He was just coming off knee surgery." Because you will be saying that forever because nobody EVER FULLY RECOVERS from an ACL tear. NEVER.That is just hysterical nonsense. There are varying degrees of surgical need and frankly there is a 98% recovery rate from ACL's now days. This isn't 1984 any longer, and players come back fully able to perform in todays climate. To judge a guy who was in the last stages of rehab is just short sighted.
Lowe said the advancement in how surgeries are performed has been the biggest reason for quicker - and more successful - recoveries from serious knee injuries.

In the past, doctors attempted to sew the ACL back together in a major operation. Today, surgeons have years of experience with using a slice of the patellar tendon, which connects the lower leg bone to the kneecap and the quadriceps muscle above it, as a replacement for the ACL.

An ACL reconstruction involves drilling holes in the tibia and femur through which the replacement tissue is threaded and attached to the bone. Better instrumentation allows doctors to anchor the graft tightly in the bone and in the right place so the joint is correctly aligned.

If the knee isn't properly aligned or if the new ligament stretches, patients suffer arthritis. Doctors usually wait weeks before reconstructing an ACL until good range of motion returns to the knee and the quadriceps muscle is strengthened. This appears to lower the risk of developing excessive scar tissue, a complication that can cause stiffness.

"If (the surgery) is not done perfectly, it doesn't work," says Lowe, who performs 250 ACL reconstruction surgeries annually.

Doctors are far more aggressive in rehabilitation than in the past, which helps speed up the recovery time. In McGahee's case, he was exercising the knee the day after the surgery, lifting weights within the first week and was off crutches less than four weeks later.

"It needs to become religion," Lowe says. "It has to become part of your life if you want to be who you were after surgery."

http://www.drwaltlowe.com/news.htm

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 11:18 AM
The reason Lewis got so many yards was because he got more than 30 carries on more than a couple occasions. ALSO, the ravens passing game did not exist untill very late in the season.Yes he did get a lot of carries but he averaged about five and half yards per carry. Yes the passing game didnt exist, but that what makes his yards total even more amazing, the defense brought 8-9 into the box and Lewis still ran over them and around them and then used his speed so he could dance in the endzone....

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:21 AM
DR. Lowe also says," If (the surgery) is not done perfectly, it doesnt work." No Doctor is perfect, i know from...personel experience.

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:22 AM
HE WAS RUNNING BEHIND THE BEST LINEMAN IN THE GAME(who could block multiple defenders)

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 11:24 AM
DR. Lowe also says," If (the surgery) is not done perfectly, it doesnt work." No Doctor is perfect, i know from...personel experience.With all of the technology today it is a whole lot easier, machines do a lot for the doctors. I had perfect surgery on my knee, it was cartalige surgery and I can do everything I did before the injury....

Wolf
07-28-2004, 11:25 AM
just curious.. do you not like Hollings on a professional level or personal level?

I am just wondering why you don't seem to give him a chance? (also trying to understand where you are coming from)or are you just a big DD fan?

yes. no doctor is perfect.. but the procedure is alot better now and more effective then it was like Vinny said in say 1984

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:26 AM
are you seriously 16 yrs old? No way.

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:28 AM
Im a big DD fan and im trying to understand how yall can write him off for someone else who has PROVED NOTHING. I dont get it.

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 11:28 AM
are you seriously 16 yrs old? No way.Yeah, I hurt my knee during basketball practice. My shoe got stuck in the ground after I knocked the ball lose from a freshman and he dived onto my leg. They thought it was an ACL tear but only turned out to be a little cartalidge tear...

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:29 AM
are you joking? How are you a "MODERATOR"?

Vinny
07-28-2004, 11:30 AM
Im a big DD fan and im trying to understand how yall can write him off for someone else who has PROVED NOTHING. I dont get it.
Just because we like Hollings doesn't mean we are "writing off" Davis. We all have opinions and some of us don't see what you do. Personally I compared his running style to a guy who is a solid NFL back in Staley. That is not an insult. What you are doing is insulting Hollings to make a case for Davis...and that is weak.

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:30 AM
Excuse The French Steel Blue

Vinny
07-28-2004, 11:31 AM
are you bull****tin? How are you a "MODERATOR"?
Fiddy is more mature and well-spoken than many of our older fans. Age has nothing to do with it. Dogging him on his age is equally as weak as your Hollings argument.

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 11:32 AM
Im a big DD fan and im trying to understand how yall can write him off for someone else who has PROVED NOTHING. I dont get it.We are not riding off DD. We just think Hollings has more to offer. Well if you think about it DD hasnt proven anything either, there have been a lot of rookie running backs to rush for 1000 yards in a season and then lose their jobs the next season...

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:32 AM
what insults? how am i insulting the guy? i am trying to see what yall see, and i dont see why you think hes better. thats all, no insults.

Wolf
07-28-2004, 11:34 AM
I am not writing DD off at all and I think we all want to see both guys succeed.

I like DD because he runs North and south and has that knack of gettting an extra yard a carry because he consistantly falls forward... I like Hollings because what LITTLE I saw, he has speed and you can't teach speed. who knows maybe DD/hollings becomes somewhat of a Mike Rozier/Allan Pinkett. ( I can't think of another tandem off the top of my head) ..where you have a change of pace back when you pound them with one and break it open with another.

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:35 AM
all im sayin is that hes proven ALOT more than Tony. maybe not in terms of league history, but in terms of who has proven more out of the two back in question.
PS_V_, you cut me REAL deep. im hurt.

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 11:35 AM
are you bull****tin?Why would a lie about an injury??? I'll take a picture of the 3 holes in my knee and send it too you if you want. Do you want me too???

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:37 AM
not the injury, about you being 16. I dont doubt the injury, its a common injury in HS. im still in HS about to be a senior.

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 11:39 AM
not the injury, about you being 16. I dont doubt the injury, its a common injury in HS. im still in HS about to be a senior.I am about to be a Junior

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:39 AM
WHAT ARE YOU BABBLING ABOUT, V? i didnt believe he was 16 because he had such knowlege of the game. So, mind your buisness, he can defend himself. And im only 17. Thats why i was wondering. He just knows alot.

Vinny
07-28-2004, 11:44 AM
WHAT ARE YOU BABBLING ABOUT, V? i didnt believe he was 16 because he had such knowlege of the game. So, mind your buisness, he can defend himself. And im only 17. Thats why i was wondering. He just knows alot.

That's fine. I will stick up for guys like Fiddy or any of my other mods if I perceive they are being talked down to. Fiddy is a mod because of his LONG history of great posts here and at Houstonprofootball.com. Age has nothing to do with maturity and you didn't make yourself too clear.

My bad, but that's just me. I'm never good on my second pot of coffee.

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 11:46 AM
i didnt believe he was 16 because he had such knowlege of the game. So, mind your buisness, he can defend himself. And im only 17. Thats why i was wondering. He just knows alot.Well, I know a lot because I read a lot, listen and watch a lot, and my dream job is to be a sports radio analyst....

TheOgre
07-28-2004, 11:47 AM
I'm surprised too. Fiddy you sould like someone in your young 20's. Take it as a complement and run with it.

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:49 AM
Fiddy, honestly if i came off as "talking down" to you, forgive me. I just didnt believe you knew ALMOST as much as me, and was younger. just kiddin.

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:52 AM
OK...lets settle this debate right now. Lets settle it with facts. this is between me and Fiddy, guys. Fiddy, lets finish the debate about whois the better back using fact and stats. you couldnt win this argument.

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 11:52 AM
Fiddy, honestly if i came off as "talking down" to you, forgive me. I just didnt believe you knew ALMOST as much as me, and was younger. just kiddin.lol, dont worry about it

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:52 AM
Are You Game?

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 11:54 AM
Are You Game?I will do it...

Wolf
07-28-2004, 11:54 AM
*ding ding ding* round 2 :rofl:

now it is the Wells versus Davis :D

of course it might be a quick knockout on this one

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:54 AM
IGHT, lets do it.

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:56 AM
Domanick Davis, very first GAME against a very good Dolphins defense(in crunch time)
34 yards on 4 rushes. Also broke off a 17-yard run breaking tackles from Zach Thomas, & JR. seau

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 11:56 AM
IGHT, lets do it.I believe Hollings can be the runner of the future because he has qualities that DD doesnt, speed the main one. Davis isnt a homerun threat, Hollings is. I am not riding off Davis, but Olandis Gary rushed for 1000 yards too...

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 11:57 AM
Domanick Davis, very first GAME against a very good Dolphins defense(in crunch time)
34 yards on 4 rushes. Also broke off a 17-yard run breaking tackles from Zach Thomas, & JR. seaubut the Dolphins had tackling problems all year long....

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 11:58 AM
what traits exactly does Hollings have better than Domanick besides speed? Not strength, not cutback ability, not agility and definatly not the ability to break tackles as Domanick can.

Wolf
07-28-2004, 12:00 PM
of course the Dolphins didn't take the Texans seriously.. I remember Jabar Gaffney being quoted in the paper that the Dolphins told him "Thanks for the practice" before the game started..


seriously, this is a good problem for Capers to have

another interesting thing would be Norris or Baxtor?

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 12:00 PM
what traits exactly does Hollings have better than Domanick besides speed? Not strength, not cutback ability, not agility and definatly not the ability to break tackles as Doanick can.Well i cant deny strength, but if you see college highlights of Mr. Hollings, he has a great cutback and had great agility....

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 12:01 PM
NORRIS vs. BAXTER? NORRIS. next.

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 12:02 PM
im sure he has SOME ability, but he cannot cut like Domanick, and he also doesnt have the amazing vision Domanick has.

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 12:05 PM
im sure he has SOME ability, but he cannot cut like Domanick, and he also doesnt have the amazing vision Domanick has.We havent seen enough of Hollings to grade his vision. And in college I dont think he needed vision because he made the first guy miss with a great juke and then gallop to the endzone...

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 12:09 PM
But, we have seen what domanick can do and we have seen that ability from tony

Panther5407
07-28-2004, 12:10 PM
If I remember right Hollings averaged really high when he played for Georga Tech. I think it was somewhere between 5-6 yards. And thats not bad for anybody.

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 12:13 PM
once again, that was in college(not the pros), and before he torn his knee up.

Panther5407
07-28-2004, 12:14 PM
But it shows his potential.

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 12:15 PM
Where you at Fiddy? Is this case closed?

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 12:18 PM
But, we have seen what domanick can do and we have seen that ability from tonyI am going to guess you meant havent.

We are grading Hollings on potential and think he will take the job in by the start of next year because of he has more potential then DD. Vinny makes a great comparisions when he compares DD to Duce Staley and Hollings to Bennett. Staley can get the job done, but Bennett gives the threat that he can take it to the house anytime he touches the ball. Hollings offers more for the offense. He spreads them out more because of his speed, he provides a homerun threat that all great offenses have. DD doesnt provide that threat....

Lucky
07-28-2004, 12:24 PM
Since I'm pretty sure most people here realize that Hollings isn't going to Miami and this thread has morphed into something altogether different, I thought I'd share my thoughts about Hollings & Davis.

The things that jumped out at me watching Tony Hollings at training camp last year were 1) he has special speed, and 2) he was small for a NFL RB. I've taken a lot of flak from infantrycak & others on Tony's size (and please don't list the weights of all the NFL RBs again), but hey that was my perception. I think it was backed up by his performance has Hollings seemingly was knocked around by defenders like a pinball hitting bumpers. Tony's propensity in dropping the ball after a big hit was another indicator of his lack of strength.

But, there was never any question about Hollings' speed, as he showed the ability to turn the corner both in the preseason and the Chief game. Now, Tony is coming off his 1st NFL off season training program. I feel that the time between a player's 1st & 2nd year is where he will make the biggest jump in physical development. I'm expecting a bigger, stronger Hollings this year with the same type of speed that can put fear into an opposing defense. If so, Tony can be a real weapon for the Texans this year.

I saw Domanick Davis in the 1st Texan night practice last year and my impression was probably the same as what the Texans thought they were getting. Quick to the hole, good hands out of the backfield, caught punts with his hands not his body. Davis was also on the small side, but about the size you'd expect in a 3rd down back/return man. Then Domanick injured his hand, and I completely forgot about him. I was actually a little surprised the Texans didn't put him on IR at the beginning of the season and only go with 3 RBs. I'm glad they didn't.

I guess DD caught my attention 1st in the "Leap of Faith" drive, were he almost single handedly drove the Texans into position for the winning TD. Then he looked good again in the Titan road game, then the Jet game, then the Colt game, then the...until I realized, "Hey, we've got something pretty good here in this Davis guy". Domanick's success kind of sneaks up on you, because he's not special in any obvious way. His moves, his ability to slip tackles, his vision, how he uses his blockers, everything about him is subtle. I mean his college coach considered moving Davis to defense at one point at LSU, even Saban didn't know what he had. But DD has something, look at his stats compared to the other Texan RBs last season.

Davis - 238 rushes, 1031 yards, 4.3 ypc
Other Texan RB's - 136 rushes, 369 yards, 2.7 ypc

I'm sorry, but a 4.3 ypc behind a decent, not great, o-line means something. A difference of 1.6 yards per carry between DD & the other backs means something. Looking at Davis and saying, "I don't see anything special", doesn't mean that the guy isn't special. Will Domanick become a HOF RB? It doesn't matter. What matters is if the combination of Davis & Hollings can help the Texans win games. I think they can.

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 12:25 PM
You just nade my point, Hollings already had durability problems as Bennett. Domanick has broken his hand but that doesnt unltimatley effect the way you run, cuz i have seen running backs with broken hands still playing. but not with broken foot(bennett) or torn acl. Domanick IS NOT SLOW, just not as fast as Tony. He could still take it to the house any time. And as for Tony. He cant break a tackle, and the only person who could take it to the house without being touched was Barry, and Tony is not Barry.

Wolf
07-28-2004, 12:29 PM
Hollings didn't do much last season by design from the coaching staff. I recall seeing flashes of good things from Hollings.. If you count of the jags game where Hollings had 19 yards on 18 carries.. Horrible performance by our offense.. they just teed off on us. they knew Hollings would be starting and Ragone making his first start.. and down in Jacksonville.. Yeah I could make excuses but Del rio was licking his chops for this one.. Taylor ran for a buck sixty.. they came to play

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 12:34 PM
You just nade my point, Hollings already had durability problems as Bennett. Domanick has broken his hand but that doesnt unltimatley effect the way you run, cuz i have seen running backs with broken hands still playing. but not with brocken foot(bennett) or torn acl. Domanick IS NOT SLOW, just not as fast as Tony. He could still take it to the house any time. And as for Tony. He cant break a tackle, and the only person who could take it to the house without being touched was Barry, and Tony is not Barry.DD has durability problems too. He has never played a full season, college or NFL. Breaking a tackle is also mental when coming off an injury....

We cant give you stats to prove potential, we just have to wait and see...

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 12:39 PM
when Domanick broke about 4 tackles in one run(right after an injury) it didnt look to me like he was thinkin," Hmmm, I better just go down cus i dont wanna get hurt again." and if thats what Hollings is thinkin, then he doesnt need to be playin football period.

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 12:43 PM
when Domanick broke about 4 tackles in one run(right after an injury) it didnt look to me like he was thinkin," Hmmm, I better just go down cus i dont wanna get hurt again." and if thats what Hollings is thinkin, then he doesnt need to be playin football period.Like you said, DD's was a hand injury that took 4 weeks to heal. Hollings took a year to heal. You dont want to go through rehab again.

El Tejano
07-28-2004, 12:44 PM
I think Mack will go and try out for them. But why hasn't anyone suggested JWells be traded over there.

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 12:46 PM
well if youre tip-toeing through the holes worrying about not getting hit, then you are not a full-contact sport contender. if he loves football but doesnt wanna get hurt, he should sign up for a flag-football league. And you know as well as i do, Domanick DOES NOT tip-toe in those holes. He hits them like mike tyson did "The Hurricane"

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 12:51 PM
well if youre tip-toeing through the holes worrying about not getting hit, then you are not a full-contact sport contender. if he loves football but doesnt wanna get hurt, he should sign up for a flag-football league. And you know as well as i do, Domanick DOES NOT tip-toe in those holes. He hits them lick mike tyson did "The Hurricane"DD also hasnt torn an ACL. I really need to find some Hollings highlights for you because he went through the hole in college, there was no fear of getting injured. The carry he hurt himself on was to run out the clock. You are Superman until you get hurt. Edge was tenative his first year back from his ACL. You cant blame them for being a little tenative after they just had their career put in jeperody...

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 12:57 PM
yes, but that keeps coming up. Domanick HAS NOT messed up anything in his legs. Tony is always gonna be hesitant to run up the middle just like Fred Taylor(this ones for __V__) . Since his hamstring injury, he has not been willing to drive for those extra yards after contact anymore. Hollings could never do it anyway( drag people or break tackles) so the injury isnt gonna make him better at it.

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 12:59 PM
yes, but that keeps coming up. Domanick HAS NOT messed up anything in his legs. Tony is always gonna be hesitant to run up the middle just like Fred Taylor(this ones for __V__) . Since his hamstring injury, he has not been willing to drive for those extra yards after contact anymore. Hollings could never do it anyway( drag people or break tackles) so the injury isnt gonna make him better at it.You hurt your argument when you compared Taylor to Hollings. Taylor might not drive his legs, according to you, but he had 1500 yards last year....

And Hollings is still faster then DD.

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 01:02 PM
I didnt compare Hollings to Taylor directly, i compared their INJURIES.(both having to do with their legs) And once again,Hollings maybe be faster than Domanick, but Domanick IS NOT SLOW, to any extent.

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 01:05 PM
AND Taylor was always able to break tackles, i was refering to when he was going down, saying he would just drop, instead of even trying to drive for EXTRA yards. i didnt say that Taylor never broke a tackle, because he did. thats how he got 1500yards. But Tony doesnt have the power to go with the outstanding speed, and CANNOT break a tackle.

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 01:06 PM
I didnt compare Hollings to Taylor directly, i compared their INJURIES.(both having to do with their legs)And Taylor with a leg injury rushed for 1500
Lewis, who had an ACL tear 3 years ago, rushed for 2000 yards last year
Edge tore his ACL 3 years ago, too, and had 1200 yards, in 13 games, with a 4.1 yard per carry average....

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 01:08 PM
yes, but ALL OF THOSE BACKS HAVE ENOUGH STRENGTH TO BREAK TACKLES.

Wolf
07-28-2004, 01:08 PM
how do YOU know he can't break tackles? you seen him after he gets his confidence back and gets used to the speed of the game? have you seen him in practice?

I am amazed that you are saying he can't do this or that when all you have seen of him is limited duty of last season

edit
where you there to see what kind of conditioning/strength program he was on last season and this offseason?

BTW I haven't seen any of it either but I do have faith that our front office knows what it takes to get a player healthy and NFL ready

Hollings came out as a junior..Yes he needs work still..

Fiddy
07-28-2004, 01:09 PM
But Tony doesnt have the power to go with the outstanding speed, and CANNOT break a tackle.How can you say that when you have only seen him take 20 carries?

We can argue this all day long but I really dont want to do that, we just have to wait and see....

Camp starts saturday...

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 01:12 PM
definatly agreed. but nice argument and no hard feelings. and a good point about not having seen him, but ill tell ya how hes looking when i see him in practice. I got tix to 3 practices in early August. I really wanna see Babin, Robinson, & Lord.

Wolf
07-28-2004, 01:13 PM
that would be great to give us an update for us unlucky ones that live too far away :D

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 01:15 PM
but yea ill give yall an UNBIASED report if you want.

Wolf
07-28-2004, 01:19 PM
well we all l know there really 3 sides to every story .. my side your side and the truth .. and that fits the bill till you get married.. then it is one sided and I won't say which side :rofl: :D

Beastlyman2003
07-28-2004, 01:22 PM
Thats what my dad says ALL the time.

caspian
07-28-2004, 02:02 PM
Beastly Man,

You may end up being right about your prediction ... who knows, right?

But the flaw in your argument is that you're using actual performance alone as your measure of talent, instead of upside potential. An athletic, even if raw, specimen will always raise eyebrows in whatever league...from Hollings to Dwight Howard. Why?

Because it's better to have a specimen that has the full spectrum of qualities, both the unteachable and the teachable...than a lesser raw specimen with the teachable.

...assuming the coach is confident in his coaching abilities...

LiveForTheGame
07-28-2004, 02:21 PM
In my opinion it isn't essential to have the perfect physical qualities. They are important because of the physcial nature of the game, but it all comes down to heart, work ethic, and what we all want- making plays. So I don't care who they put out there as long as the guy can represent the Texans both on the field and off the field with dignity and will make the plays when it needs to be done.

TheOgre
07-28-2004, 02:38 PM
Well Matt Stephens had heart and work ethic. He just didn't make plays. He is a perfect example of someone limited by his abilities. The guy hit his cap and that was not at the NFL quality level.

beerlover
07-28-2004, 02:50 PM
Taking Hollings in the supplemental draft was a gamble & far from a sure bet. As are several of the later picks in this past draft. One that needs mentioning is Jammal Lord now here is a gifted talent that just needs a chance to shine and has the size to play multiple positions. I bet a cold beverage IF he gets a chance to play WR he will excell, along with AJ that would be a couple big strong receivers.

Why do I mention this idonno: because both are gambles but given the right situation both can succeed. The problem is that there was such a glut of talent in the 2004 draft that blue chip starting capable players went deeply through the entire 2nd round. I'm sick and tired of hearing excusses that the Oakland pick was predicated as only a late second round pick, even so WORSE CASE a wonderful talent would have been available without the question marks of rehab or changing positions. Those should be reserved for later rounds.

I would rather have Greg Jones with the 55th pick than Hollings (33rd pick) anyway, as long as we're all dreaming in never never land :tiptoe:

TheOgre
07-28-2004, 03:28 PM
Taking David Carr withe the first pick in the 2002 draft was a gamble. There are no guarantees. Just ask the Cardinals, Chargers, and Bengals. They have had multiple top 10 picks that have been busts over the past 15 years.

infantrycak
07-28-2004, 03:43 PM
Domanick HAS NOT messed up anything in his legs. Tony is always gonna be hesitant to run up the middle just like Fred Taylor

FYI--Domanick Davis underwent arthroscopic left knee surgery (torn meniscus) after 2000 spring drills, in 2001 he suffered a left knee medial collateral ligament sprain and a high ankle sprain. Seems he has messed up things in his leg and that people do recover from leg injuries to not run hesitant after a while.

Also, in terms of pro-scouts seeing potential in him, here is a quote from John McClain about him:

I'll let you be the judge, Julio. As you know, Hollings was a safety during his first two years at Georgia Tech. Because of injuries, he asked coach Chan Gailey for a chance to play running back. Before he suffered a knee injury that required reconstructive surgery, he played four games as a junior last season. Hollings carried 92 times for 633 yards and 11 touchdowns. Now, Julio, here's what I pay the most attention to: National Scouting Combine rated him as one of the top-seven senior prospects in the country. Only four seniors on National's list were rated ahead of Hollings. BLESTO, the combine the Texans are members of, rated Hollings among the top-10 seniors. Only six were rated higher. That means general manager Charley Casserly surrendered the second-round pick he acquired from the Raiders, which should be a low No. 2 pick considering Oakland played in the last Super Bowl, for a player who's among the top-seven or top-10 prospects in the country, depending on which scouting combine you trust the most. By the way, the combines have Hollings at almost 5-11 and 223. He has been timed in the 40 anywhere from 4.39 to 4.44.

TheOgre
07-28-2004, 03:50 PM
Jamal Lewis ran hesitant after his surgery too. He second year back he no longer ran that way.

beerlover
07-28-2004, 06:57 PM
1. This type of resoning to me is flawed- "That means general manager Charley Casserly surrendered the second-round pick he acquired from the Raiders, which should be a low No. 2 pick considering Oakland played in the last Super Bowl". Frankly I don't buy it, never have and never will.

2. Statements like this- "a player who's among the top-seven or top-10 prospects in the country, depending on which scouting combine you trust the most". Sounds like several stock recommendations I recieved 5 years ago, don't believe any of them. Heck I'd rather trade Hollings to the Finns for the rights to Ricky Williams, take my chances in a change of scenery & returning to Texas might ease his mind enough to return to football. That has more potential than traveling down the path were on in this thread.

BuffSoldier
07-28-2004, 07:25 PM
OK personally I think that there will be no way that Hollings takes the job from Davis unless Davis get injured, or plays horribly.

What has hollings showed yall that gives you a reason to believe that he will be an elite NFL RB. He has speed, wow, thats wonderful, what else does he have? Average vision, basically no quickness and cutback ability, no receiving talent, not good at picking up Blitzing LBs, what is it.

DD may not have the seed to break 70 yards, but he will give you positive yardage basically every play because he falls forward, stop on a dime agility, hands that at this point I say are more reliable than Corey Bradfords, great balance and the ability to bounce off defenders like a pinball, low center of gravity, nice blocking skills. Oh and 1031 yards after starting after the 6th game and being out for a couple. Had he been the starter in game one he probably would have had over 1300 yards. Yeah Hollings is going to challenge DD.


If the Fins give us a 1st rounder for Hollings id trade him in a new york second, firstly because their O revolved around Ricky Williams so they will probably win like 5-6 games this year. A top 10 pick would be extraordinary.

keyfro
07-28-2004, 07:30 PM
i honestly doubt hollings will be traded to the fins...who would we have for back up...wells? please no way casserly would go into a season with our main back up being wells...hollings isn't going anywhere for the time being...although i have to agree with buffsoldier on this one...if they offer their 1st rounder for him...i'd take it...next years draft should be a good one and without ricky we could be in line for derrick johnson or some other high profile rookie...maybe jammal brown the OT from OU

Vinny
07-28-2004, 07:33 PM
1. This type of resoning to me is flawed- "That means general manager Charley Casserly surrendered the second-round pick he acquired from the Raiders, which should be a low No. 2 pick considering Oakland played in the last Super Bowl". Frankly I don't buy it, never have and never will.

2. Statements like this- "a player who's among the top-seven or top-10 prospects in the country, depending on which scouting combine you trust the most". Sounds like several stock recommendations I recieved 5 years ago, don't believe any of them. Heck, they are just professional scouts. I'd think a bunch of us message board guys could do better than B.L.E.T.S.O. any day.

aj.
07-28-2004, 08:14 PM
fwiw, it's BLESTO.

SESupergenius
07-28-2004, 09:09 PM
potential is all we are riding on at this point. The guys hasn't made it through a season as a running back and only played 4 games before getting injured. If he switched from DB to HB because of injuries, I just don't get that. The oxymoron is that even though he's dodging DB injuries, now he has to cope with RB ones. It was just way too high of a pick for this type of player. Was it really that hard to imagine Oakland's slide considering how old the talent was? If we didn't gamble on him we could have got Tatum Bell, Greg Jones, or Julius Jones. Not a bad group at all in addition to the slew of other talented players at other postions to chose from. We just might have missed on that one.

TheOgre
07-28-2004, 11:34 PM
It is one thing to think the Raiders might slide a bit. It seems like a huge stretch though to think the pick would slide 30 slots.

1. Everyone one of the "with the 33rd pick in the draft we could have gotten [insert player]" are just irritating. A REASONABLE expectation would have had the Raiders around 8-8. Now if you ask who we could have gotten around the 50th pick, I could buy that. Talking about the 33rd pick in the draft is assuming we could see the future. If I had that I would have won the lottery a few times by now.

2. At this point DD has shown he can get 1000 yards in a season. He has shown some good things, but he doesn't look like a 1st tier RB to me. That is my opinion.

3. Scouts around the NFL were big on Hollings for a good reason. He has the tools to be a big time back. The reason more teams didn't step up to the plate (in the supplemental draft) is the same reason that McGahee fell in the draft, he is a risk due to the injury. Hollings fell some more because of his limited college experience. But let me reiterate, scouts like this guy. He has the "p" word. While he may never live up to it, he has higher potential than DD IMO. Is he a roll of the dice? Sure.

SESupergenius
07-28-2004, 11:42 PM
You are right, I wouldn't have guessed that high in the draft. At the time however there were many grumblings on these boards that said we might end up with a better pick than last in the round. I would have thought the Raiders would finish in the 9-7 10-6 range, but still would have kept it due to fact that he was damaged goods for that high of pick with minimal experience. Just my opinion. O didn't expect DD to do anything last year but be a 3rd down out of the backfield reciever. I felt that Mack and a backup were was sufficient, and we still had Wells. I wouldn't put MCGahee and Hollings in the same class when you compare stats and ability. McGahee I would have taken a chance on if he were in the same situation as Hollings. Hollings just didn't prove enough by only playing 4 games against weaker opponents.

infantrycak
07-29-2004, 12:04 AM
If he switched from DB to HB because of injuries, I just don't get that.

Ses, they mean the starting RB's were injured so Hollings asked to be tried out at RB to replace them, not that he had injuries as a DB and so moved to RB.

SESupergenius
07-29-2004, 01:25 AM
Thanks Infantry, I stand corrected.

Grid
07-29-2004, 01:47 AM
I know its been a while since last season.. but EVERYONE was agreeing last season that DD was awesome but just didnt have the size to muscle his way into the endzone. Thats not a terrible thing.. alot of backs dont have that .. and yah you can blame it on blocking if ya want.. but the fact of the matter is that if you had had Mack in there when it was 2 yards to the goal.. he probably could have muscled his way in unless blocking just totally collapsed.

And the Patriots game. We had it on the goal line.. either in the 4th quarter or in overtime.. and DD couldnt get it in on 3 attempts.

i absolutely love DD.. he is my favorite player on the team.. im NOT knocking him. I just really think that a big back backing him up would be prefferable to a small speedy one.

texan279
07-29-2004, 03:44 AM
What about Norris or Baxter? I think I would have given the ball to one of them after the 2nd failed attempt...

LoNghoRn-TeXaN
07-29-2004, 03:55 AM
Tony Hollings is perfect in backing up DD. I hope the Texans use Jarrod Baxter coming up this season in goalline situations because it could get very rough and the potential of being injured increases significantly. I just don't want either DD or TH getting injured. We need them to make a serious playoff push!!! :headbang:

infantrycak
07-29-2004, 08:58 AM
I know its been a while since last season.. but EVERYONE was agreeing last season that DD was awesome but just didnt have the size to muscle his way into the endzone.

Hazarding a guess here, but I doubt there has ever been a subject that EVERYONE here agreed on. Anyway, given that the two RB's with the highest season totals for TD's ever Emmitt Smith 5'10" 209 lbs and Priest Holmes 5' 9" 213 lbs (heights and weights included for Lucky) are basically the same size as DD, I would say the line work and for lack of a better description a nose for the end zone count more. Compare them to Fred Taylor who even though 232 lbs has had some difficulty at the goal line and thus the Jags had first Mack and now Greg Jones to punch the ball in.

Grid
07-29-2004, 09:19 AM
thats all fine and good... but doesnt change the fact that a large back would COULD force his way into the endzone and get us those short yards for a first down WOULD be more useful than another fast back. Variety never hurt nobody on a football field.

infantrycak
07-29-2004, 09:41 AM
thats all fine and good... but doesnt change the fact that a large back would COULD force his way into the endzone and get us those short yards for a first down WOULD be more useful than another fast back. Variety never hurt nobody on a football field.

Wells is 245 lbs and can't punch his way through a paper bag. IMO talent counts for more and if you really have to throw a big chunk of meat at the line then put Baxter in with Norris lead blocking. At this point the Texans already have three large backs with Wells, Baxter and Norris. Three large and two regular seems a lot more balanced than Four large and one regular IMO.

Grid
07-29-2004, 09:47 AM
well when i said we should get a large back i meant one that is worth a damn. If one of our FBs is actually good enough to do that.. then that sounds great... but I havent seem them get the ball yet so I imagine they arent RB material.

TheOgre
07-29-2004, 10:18 AM
Jarrod Baxter can potentially be that short yardage back.

SESupergenius
07-29-2004, 10:48 AM
they can potentially be short yardage backs, but they won't because we never use them that way.

BornOrange
07-29-2004, 11:22 AM
The Texans usually don't run the fullback from two back sets, but I see Baxter being an effective short yardage back if he is put in there running behind Norris.

TheOgre
07-29-2004, 11:51 AM
Baxter is not a prototypical FB. He is more of a tweener HB/FB. A Baxter and Norris backfield on 4th and 1 is a distinct possibility IMO.

Fiddy
07-29-2004, 12:36 PM
Dont forget that Baxter was a starting RB in college....

Beastlyman2003
07-29-2004, 12:41 PM
yes but how did he do? did he play against any good competition?

Fiddy
07-29-2004, 12:44 PM
He did pretty good for a walk-on

from his bio on this site...COLLEGE: Lined up at tailback and fullback as a four-year starter for the Lobos, rushing for 2,090 yards on 462 carries (4.5 avg.) with 19 TDs…also caught 15 passes for 114 yards…former walk-on who eventually served as team captain two seasons…paced team with 203 carries for 907 yards (4.5 avg.) and 11 TDs as a senior, earning first-team All-Mountain West Conference honors…his TD total ranked fifth on the school’s all-time single-season list…rushed for career-high 184 yards and two scores in season opener versus UTEP…carried 138 times for 559 yards and five scores as a junior, earning honorable mention all-conference accolades…earned team MVP honors as a sophomore, rushing for 434 yards and four TDs…started 8 of 12 games as a freshman, rushing for 190 yards on 38 carries

TheOgre
07-29-2004, 12:48 PM
Jarrod Baxter's 4 college season stats:

2001 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/college/stats/2001/nnhteamstats.html)

2000 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/college/stats/2000/nnhteamstats.html)

1999 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/college/stats/1999/nnhteamstats.html)

1998 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/college/stats/1998/nnhteamstats.html)

Beastlyman2003
07-29-2004, 12:54 PM
how bout Tony Hollings for Sam Madison? That would be nice!!!

Beastlyman2003
07-29-2004, 04:30 PM
Have yall heard anything about this proposed trade? I got this off a rumor mill, and i dont know what to think but i doubt that the Dolphin need a RB so desperatly as to trade of of the better CBs in the league for an unproven, unhealthy, 2nd yr RB. Heard anything?

infantrycak
07-29-2004, 04:47 PM
Have yall heard anything about this proposed trade? I got this off a rumor mill, and i dont know what to think but i doubt that the Dolphin need a RB so desperatly as to trade of of the better CBs in the league for an unproven, unhealthy, 2nd yr RB. Heard anything?

What rumor mill other than your response to Bottle-O-Bud above?

Oilers/Texans
07-29-2004, 06:07 PM
I like Davis. He's the RB until he proves he can't do it. Right now, he looks like he can do it. If Hollings beats him out, that means Hollings is one heck of an awsome back because Davis is pretty dog gone good!! Don't ya think??

powda
07-29-2004, 06:47 PM
capers just did a segment on 610 and was adamant about how important having two runningbacks is. he said hollings would get a LOT of work in the preseason and i got the impression hollings would be getting 5-10 carries plus a game in the regular season. he did say hollings would be a key player this year.

10-15 minute segment and they really didnt touch on much else of note.

hollings isnt going anywhere.

BigDTexansFan
07-29-2004, 07:14 PM
Can't see it happening although have to admit a #1 early in 1st round looks pretty good, charley casserly would be hard pressed to say no but am sure DD and TH will be working in backfield this season and next

TheOgre
08-02-2004, 09:26 AM
Here is a relevant link:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/2714260

If this is true, I think it is highly unlikely that DD gets 1700 yards.

Ibar_Harry
08-02-2004, 11:07 AM
Kind of a deceptive article, because the top backs did average more than 20 times a game. Are they trying to say DD cann't do it? I still think Hollings has to show a lot more than he has, but if they think he's still a speed merchant they must know. He probably has healed fine. But he has to show he can get through the holes, and so far, he has shown much in that department. My only hope is the combination of DD and Hollings becomes the scourge of the league.

Vinny
08-02-2004, 11:26 AM
I guess I'm not so crazy afterall...
The Texans believe they have two good young running backs in Domanick Davis, who rushed for 1,031 yards in just 10 starts as a rookie last season, and Hollings, the player thought to be the team's running back of the future before Davis emerged.

Hollings, the NCAA's leading rusher after four games in 2002 before an ACL injury ended his season at Georgia Tech, is a backup for the purposes of depth charts. The Texans, however, consider him a playmaker.

"We'd like to run the ball 30 times a game," offensive coordinator Chris Palmer said. "We're going to have to split the load, and that's where Hollings is going to get his work. We're looking for Domanick to touch the ball 15, 18, 20 times a game, and we'd like to give Hollings 12 to 15 touches.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/2714260

TheOgre
08-02-2004, 11:47 AM
Yep Vinny you and I have been saying the same things about Hollings for a while. It is one of those rare items where we agree.

Stampeder
08-05-2004, 02:58 PM
are you joking? How are you a "MODERATOR"?
If I'm not mistaken, you get to be a mod by being on here alot and posting alot. The concept that ppl. who post alot are godlike "experts" is frankly quite overrated. There may be many of us who choose not to spend as much time online whose knowledge of football and opinions may be just as valid or even better. At any rate, even "experts" are often wrong... like those who said the Texans were reaching when they used their 4th round pick on a guy who would never be more than a 3rd down back....

infantrycak
08-05-2004, 03:23 PM
If I'm not mistaken, you get to be a mod by being on here alot and posting alot.

You are mistaken. For the record, the person referenced in the comment you quoted was Fiddy and he was asked to be a moderator because he has displayed solid football knowledge.

Vinny
08-05-2004, 03:30 PM
If I'm not mistaken, you get to be a mod by being on here alot and posting alot. The concept that ppl. who post alot are godlike "experts" is frankly quite overrated. There may be many of us who choose not to spend as much time online whose knowledge of football and opinions may be just as valid or even better. At any rate, even "experts" are often wrong... like those who said the Texans were reaching when they used their 4th round pick on a guy who would never be more than a 3rd down back.... Actually all the moderators all long-time posters with a good history. Some post alot and some don't post near as much as some of the regulars. Likewise, we have some mods that know football very well (like Fiddy for example) and we have some who are just great fans of the team and really don't know the game as well as others. Being an "expert" on football or age, or posting frequency has nothing to do with being a moderator.

Stampeder
08-05-2004, 03:36 PM
You are mistaken. For the record, the person referenced in the comment you quoted was Fiddy and he was asked to be a moderator because he has displayed solid football knowledge.

My bad... My point, though is that there are many ppl. with "solid football knowledge" who are not around message boards enough to become a moderator. You wouldn't ask someone to become a mod if he's only here once or twice a month, no matter what his level of football knowledge is. Also that many ppl with "solid football knowledge" can be wrong in judging a college player's potential. If not, we wouldn't see 1st round busts or experienced journalists predicting that Davis would never be more than a 3rd down back.

infantrycak
08-05-2004, 03:49 PM
Sure, a moderator has to be around enough to perform a function for the MB. And clearly all the solid football knowledge in the world doesn't convey a crystal ball and let's face it trying to predict the performance of 53 moving parts, much less examine and predict the performance of hundreds of college prospects in a new environment is beyond anyone's predictive capability--knowledge and history only get you so far and then you are solidly into SWAG (Scientific Wild A(take a stab at what this one is) Guess) country.

Vinny
08-05-2004, 04:04 PM
My bad... My point, though is that there are many ppl. with "solid football knowledge" who are not around message boards enough to become a moderator. You wouldn't ask someone to become a mod if he's only here once or twice a month, no matter what his level of football knowledge is. Also that many ppl with "solid football knowledge" can be wrong in judging a college player's potential. If not, we wouldn't see 1st round busts or experienced journalists predicting that Davis would never be more than a 3rd down back. I understand your point but you are mixing in things that have nothing to do with it. We have some mods that rarely post but are here lurking on a regular basis, so post count is another issue that has zero to do with being a moderator. Also, as you have stated and as I mentioned, having a mind for breaking down football has nothing to do with moderating vulgarity and being a fan in general. We don't even track post counts here like on many boards in the member listing areas. You won't find a list of "top ten" posters or "leading posters" in our member list. We could care less about that.