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Vinny
11-16-2005, 12:16 PM
Disclaimer: rumor site DAVID DONE IN HOUSTON?

Despite indications that the Texans plan to keep quarterback David Carr via an $8 million option bonus, we're hearing that the team is taking a careful look at the pool of available quarterbacks for 2006 -- and that the Texans currently are leaning against keeping Carr.

Though many assume that Carr's struggle are the result of poor pass protection, the main knock on Carr is that he simply cannot pick up the secondary receiver when his primary guy isn't open.

Currently, Houston has a one-game "lead" over a cluster of 2-7 teams for the No. 1 overall pick in the draft. If the Texans remain among this team of turds come late December, look for owner Bob McNair to keep his $8 million in his pockets -- and to permit Carr to hit the road.

The other option, of course, is the negotiation of a new deal with Carr that would allow him to stay at a more appropriate cap number and pay package. In this regard, the Texans have more than a little leverage, since no one that we know of is crossing their fingers and toes in the hopes that Carr will become a free agent. But even if Carr stays, our guess is that he gets some real competition for the starting job in the offseason.
http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

texan279
11-16-2005, 12:17 PM
Wow. Could be a total house cleaning from top to bottom.

wags
11-16-2005, 12:19 PM
If the Texans remain among this team of turds come late December,

Normally I don't put much stock into sites that use the phrase "team of turds." But hey, I am a crazy guy.

Yes, I did read the disclaimer.

RTP2110
11-16-2005, 12:20 PM
That 8 mil would go a long way in fixing some of the other holes this team has to fill.

texan279
11-16-2005, 12:23 PM
That 8 mil would go a long way in fixing some of the other holes this team has to fill.

Yep. IMO it was a big mistake to pay all the money to Carr without building any kind of O line. I would rather have a decent QB and a decent O line instead of a crappy O line and an OK QB.

bckey
11-16-2005, 12:24 PM
I don't think Carr is going anywhere. I actually believe that the Texans will exercise the 3 year option over the 2 year one. I'm more worried that the Texans will win enough games to keep Capers and company around another year. I'm so tired of hearing what a good man Capers is. What the heck does that have to do with being a good head coach?

SESupergenius
11-16-2005, 12:25 PM
Though many assume that Carr's struggle are the result of poor pass protection, the main knock on Carr is that he simply cannot pick up the secondary receiver when his primary guy isn't open.
I think this persond was scouring the message board and came across a post from one of our fans saying he thought this way about Carr, but didn't bother to keep up with the rebutals or didn't see the game where Carr layed it right in Brad fords hands for a potentially game tieing score.....as the 2nd reciever.

RTP2110
11-16-2005, 12:27 PM
I think this persond was scouring the message board and came across a post from one of our fans saying he thought this way about Carr, but didn't bother to keep up with the rebutals or didn't see the game where Carr layed it right in Brad fords hands for a potentially game tieing score.....as the 2nd reciever.

Also, didn't Carr say on the radio that the coaches tell him to check the 1st reciever, and if he isn't open to immidiately check down to the dump off option?

texan279
11-16-2005, 12:30 PM
I think this persond was scouring the message board and came across a post from one of our fans saying he thought this way about Carr, but didn't bother to keep up with the rebutals or didn't see the game where Carr layed it right in Brad fords hands for a potentially game tieing score.....as the 2nd reciever.

And on the same play Carr didn't throw to a wide open AJ underneath on the slant...

Double Barrel
11-16-2005, 12:30 PM
Normally I don't put much stock into sites that use the phrase "team of turds." But hey, I am a crazy guy.

Yes, I did read the disclaimer.

:rofl: yeah, that thought crossed my mind to when seeing that particular phrase. It doesn't inspire the greatest of confidence in their "professional" analysis, 'eh? Even for a rumor sight.

Interesting read, though, and glad Vinny posted it. I find it interesting to see how the outside world views the situation, and there are some valid points. If the perception at the front office is that Carr is as good as he's going to get (by that I mean growing out of certain tendencies or not), then overpaying him might not be the greatest idea at this time. Especially considering how many other urgent needs this team has at various positions.

Blake
11-16-2005, 12:31 PM
I cant see this happening. Its more than money. Its more than the record.

David has been the face of this franchise for years. He wont be thrown out like trash. I know the NFL has no loyalties, but sometimes you have to stick with your guy. Build up around him, and then see what the problem is.

This isnt a Kyle Boller, who has a top notch Defense, with an established line, and pro bowl left tackle, and one of the best RB's in the game.

This is David Carr, with a 4 year old franchise, a struggling D, a musical chairs o line, and a good stable of backs.

Also, I have to mention the coaches. Brian Billick, is far more sucessful overall than our own Dom Capers.

Add all of this together, and you can see why we are 1-8.

Pay Carr his money, and get him a LT, G, and a better defense. And to top that off, a new head coach. You know, the kind that like to win. Take chances, and draw up better plays.

Frills
11-16-2005, 12:31 PM
We pay this O-line 12 mil

And people claim the gov't misappropiates funds :brickwall

texan279
11-16-2005, 12:32 PM
You can't pay the guy millions just because he is "the face of the franchise". If our front office makes moves like that, we will be in cap hell pretty quick.

wags
11-16-2005, 12:35 PM
If our front office makes moves like that, we will be in cap hell pretty quick.

If our front office keeps paying crappy Dolphin players 25 million then we will be in cap hell pretty quick.

Blake
11-16-2005, 12:36 PM
You can't pay the guy millions just because he is "the face of the franchise". If our front office makes moves like that, we will be in cap hell pretty quick.

I didnt say give him money because he is the face of the franchise. My point was that you need to stick with your guy, and see if he is really the problem.

So you would rather dump Carr, and pick up another #1 overall QB? Either way you are going to pay big bucks.

How much better do you think he will do with the Texans right now?

Coach C.
11-16-2005, 12:38 PM
Why did this guy not even discuss the 5.5 option. I would be very suprise if they excersise the 8million option also. The 5.5 option for two years is a good option and we should execute it. I would assume that the Texans need to spread this rumor much more though. I would hate for teams to think that they can just move to two or three in the draft and still get the top guy. I seriously doubt we will get another QB. Look for McNair to ask Kubiak hey can you win with DC and Kubiak will say hey I won with Jake Plummer, I can kill with DC. Kubiak takes over and then the Texans go 8-8 his first season and make the playoffs next year in and resign Carr to a long term contract. The Texans board celebrates McNair finally bringing in the right guy and Vinny , Infantry, and I will still say that we need better execution.

SESupergenius
11-16-2005, 12:39 PM
And on the same play Carr didn't throw to a wide open AJ underneath on the slant...And on that same play Carr looked at AJ initially and he was covered by 2 guys thinking they were going to double his primary option, Carr doesn't have the luxury of "waiting" for a play develop, this has been the argument of all the Carr haters is that he holds on to the ball to long.

Frills
11-16-2005, 12:40 PM
If he had the option to audible to something other than a run, he would be better. If he didn't get hit 40 million times per year he'd have more patience and look to the 2nd WR other than dumping it to the RB. If he had a TE that could be a threat in the middle he'd have more options. If he had a defense that could stop folks, he wouldn't be the whole second half down by 21. If he had a RB that could block someone (he has in the past 2 weeks, but the no blocking back should return)

when a player gets hammered as much as he has, they start to expect the hit, and worry more about when its comming (subconciously) and the rest of their game falters. The coaching staff and Casserly have directly caused it.

I like David, and while I want him here, it might be in his best interest to get a fresh start somewhere else.

texan279
11-16-2005, 12:41 PM
I didnt say give him money because he is the face of the franchise. My point was that you need to stick with your guy, and see if he is really the problem.

So you would rather dump Carr, and pick up another #1 overall QB? Either way you are going to pay big bucks.

How much better do you think he will do with the Texans right now?

No I am not saying that, I really don't know what I would do at this point. If Carr really wants to stay and suceed, maybe he should take a pay cut to free up some money to put into the O line, through draft or free agency. I just don't think he should be the highest paid player on this team right now. Honestly, no one probably deserves to make what he makes on this team right now.

infantrycak
11-16-2005, 12:46 PM
That 8 mil would go a long way in fixing some of the other holes this team has to fill.

Not as far as it sounds. That $8 mil if exercised will go on the cap over 4 years, so $2 mil per year. As evidenced by Wade, Coleman and Greenwood's contracts, you don't get serious FA's for $2 mil per year--the cheapest of them has a $3.5 mil per year contract.

Now his base salary would free up a bigger chunk of cap in each of those years, but then again you are out looking for a new QB as well so that is most likely a wash.

Lucky
11-16-2005, 12:50 PM
In this regard, the Texans have more than a little leverage, since no one that we know of is crossing their fingers and toes in the hopes that Carr will become a free agent.
This is where the guy really gets the story wrong. There are still plenty of people in the league that think Carr has potential. Mike Martz would love to work with David (though where will Martz be working next season?). Both Denny Green and Al Davis would likely bring Carr in. But, I'm thinking Jerry Jones would be the one to scoop Carr up. If Carr is thinking of leaving, it wouldn't surprise me if his agent didn't leak this story.

Coach C.
11-16-2005, 12:50 PM
How did they even start talking about this. Vinny what is your take on the options on Carr. I am in favor of locking him down for two years. Now I am not gonna defend his bad play or try to overhype his good play. But he is a average qb with good talent. I mean we know how well QBs can change if they get into a system that suites them.

Coach C.
11-16-2005, 12:52 PM
Carr in Oakland would be nice to see. I have been a fan of Oakland for a while but with those receivers strong armed Carr could really gunsling. If we do not pick him up. It is pretty clear he will land with another team and likely be a starter.

Frills
11-16-2005, 01:03 PM
No I am not saying that, I really don't know what I would do at this point. If Carr really wants to stay and suceed, maybe he should take a pay cut to free up some money to put into the O line, through draft or free agency. I just don't think he should be the highest paid player on this team right now. Honestly, no one probably deserves to make what he makes on this team right now.


We've seen what this front office can do with the O-line. Last year our O-line took up over $11 million of cap space. As of now we have 7.8 mil in cap space (http://www.theredzone.org/caproom.asp)

So for those worrying about Carr's cap hit, should be looking elsewhere. Picking up the option at the end of the season, we can prorate the 8 mil over this year and the next 3 years.

aj.
11-16-2005, 01:14 PM
Carr has enough skills to be a good NFL QB. He's not in a good situation here so either you change that or you say good bye to #8. I'd like to see him stay here with the 2 year extension, a new system, a real qb coach, and a competitive situation. There would be plenty of teams lining up to offer Carr a FA contract. Maybe not as a starter right away, but again, in a competitive type situation.

Frills
11-16-2005, 01:17 PM
Green Bay, Oakland, and Baltimore, would pick him up in a heartbeat. Just to name a few off the top of my head.

Coach C.
11-16-2005, 01:22 PM
Oakland and Baltimore would definately be interested in him as would Denver in a backup role.

Vinny
11-16-2005, 01:35 PM
So for those worrying about Carr's cap hit, should be looking elsewhere. Picking up the option at the end of the season, we can prorate the 8 mil over this year and the next 3 years.According to Keith, his projected Cap hit is much larger....at $7,256,160. He has base salaries of 5.25 and 6 million in addition to his bonus. This year his cap hit is nearly twice as large as the second highest paid Texan.

* David Carr is in the option year of his rookie contract. If the option is exercised, Carr's contract extends through 2008 and he is due a pro-rateable $8,000,000 bonus. Base salaries for the next three years would be $5.25 million in 2006 and 2007 and $6 million in 2008.
http://www.houstonprofootball.com/cap2006.html

Blake
11-16-2005, 01:41 PM
Would Carr consider a cheaper contract? I mean its not like he had a stellar year. And it would help out his team.

aj.
11-16-2005, 01:42 PM
I think Frills point was that they can prorate the $8 mil s/b over four years (including this year) if they exercise the three year option (true statement). That's why the Texans held $2 mill in cap reserve this year - just to accomodate this year's portion of the proration. Carr's total cap hit is in the $7 mil - $8 mil per year range on the 3 year extension and slightly less on the 2 yr extension.

College Texan
11-16-2005, 01:43 PM
The only positive of Carr leaving would be to finally see the kid succeed somewhere. We could keep him, draft Leinart and pull an Eli on another team.
I think he needs the right coach and the right playbook to turn things around.
We should be fortunate to have a class guy like Carr, no one else would stand for what he has been through.

Kaiser Toro
11-16-2005, 01:44 PM
Not surprised by the rumor as we all have been discussing these scenarios for some time.

Of course there will be interest from other teams it just remains to be seen who does and at what price tag. The fact that this rumor popped up outisde of this board will get the wheels turning for other teams and then the Texans can start to have frank discussions on how or if we should resign him.

I do not believe any sane owner will pay DC top tier money like we would have to by picking up the option. Does anyone know the feasibility/cap hit of waiving DC and then resigning him?

texasguy346
11-16-2005, 01:46 PM
Would Carr consider a cheaper contract? I mean its not like he had a stellar year. And it would help out his team.

I don't know about that. Think about it from Carr's perspective for a minute. If he signs a cheaper contract to help the team out what does he get in return? Of course we all hope a new coaching staff brings in some talent to help protect Carr, but Carr's heard his entire career from Capers & Casserley that they were going to keep him protected by fixing the OLine. All those promises of protection were broken. Why should he trust a new staff to do what the old staff never could do? He also is smart enough to know that if he's a free agent he could still sign a cheap deal with a team like Baltimore or Oakland perhaps and could be confident that he'd get protection. Sure he might have to compete for a starting spot, but there's no gurantee he won't have to do that next season here in Houston.

TexanBearkat
11-16-2005, 01:48 PM
Keep Carr, Fire Capers, Fire Casserly, Bring in GM and HC committed to bringing in guys via FA and Draft for both sides of the line and you will have a much better team. It all starts on the lines

aj.
11-16-2005, 01:49 PM
Does anyone know the feasibility/cap hit of waiving DC and then resigning him?

Totally feasible. No cap hit. And no guarantee that you will be able to re-sign him because he will be a UFA and he will go to the highest bidder and the best situation - which most likely won't be here. I doubt if he would want to come back here if they released him.

Frills
11-16-2005, 01:50 PM
I agree, you're looking at a 7-8 mil cap hit for each year. We're 4 under now, and the cap and projected 10 under next year.

Lets look at the other cap estimates for next year

Greenwood: 3,996,160
Coleman: 3,041,160
Hollings: 699,410
Rivers: 646,160
Bruener: 904,493
Joppru: 874,910
Riley: 1,006,160

Total: 11,168,493

Over 1.4 mil for TE's and we still have no threat from the position.

We have a ton more wasted cap money than the couple of mil David's option would consume.

aj.
11-16-2005, 01:52 PM
Quick trivia question:

What's Joppru's number? (no looking)

TexanBearkat
11-16-2005, 01:57 PM
It's a shame what has happened with Joppru. That is one where I can't blame Casserly. No one could have known he would have all these injuries. It's one of those 'What could have been' situations.

Kaiser Toro
11-16-2005, 02:00 PM
Totally feasible. No cap hit. And no guarantee that you will be able to re-sign him because he will be a UFA and he will go to the highest bidder and the best situation - which most likely won't be here. I doubt if he would want to come back here if they released him.

Thanks for the follow up. I do feel that McNair will have a great value proposition for DC to be released - new coach, GM, taking lineman early in the draft and a lower base higher incentive laden contract.

I just do nto see DC getting anywhere close to what he is making now and he will undoubtedly be in a competitive situation. We also can not forget the value DC has here by being the face of the Texans in a large market. He will certainly lose any endorsements that mirror his current status if he goes elsehwere.

aj.
11-16-2005, 02:09 PM
Right now, his real value is probably somewhere around Kelly Holcomb money: Four-years, $6.6 million, including a $2 million signing bonus.

Blake
11-16-2005, 02:11 PM
Quick trivia question:

What's Joppru's number? (no looking)

Miller was 82
Breuner is 87

Bennie 83? i have no idea.

rmartin65
11-16-2005, 02:11 PM
Carr has to stay. Who else would play QB?

Blake
11-16-2005, 02:12 PM
Miller was 82
Breuner is 87

Bennie 83? i have no idea.

He shoots! He scores!!

texan279
11-16-2005, 02:14 PM
We've seen what this front office can do with the O-line. Last year our O-line took up over $11 million of cap space. As of now we have 7.8 mil in cap space (http://www.theredzone.org/caproom.asp)

So for those worrying about Carr's cap hit, should be looking elsewhere. Picking up the option at the end of the season, we can prorate the 8 mil over this year and the next 3 years.

It doesn't really matter how you break down or prorate his salary, the question is, is he worth the money?

Fiddy
11-16-2005, 02:15 PM
Carr has to stay. Who else would play QB? You either go a year with no real QB and wait for Vince Young or you give Vince a call telling him that he will play for his hometown next year if he comes out!!! :D

Ragone may be given a chance. Maybe a trade for Rivers (doubt that though). There are a few choices.

TexanBearkat
11-16-2005, 02:16 PM
Carr has to stay. Who else would play QB?

IF Carr were to leave (and I am not a fan of that) I think the Texans go out and get a solid FA QB who can be here for awhile. Honestly I have no idea what FA QB's will be available. I am not for getting a rookie QB and him starting immediately because I do believe with a few changes this can be a good team and get this thing turned around.

rmartin65
11-16-2005, 02:17 PM
You either go a year with no real QB and wait for Vince Young or you give Vince a call telling him that he will play for his hometown next year!!! :D
Vince might not come out this year. Carr should stay and be given a shot with a REAL coaching staff and a REAL oline.

infantrycak
11-16-2005, 02:20 PM
I just do nto see DC getting anywhere close to what he is making now and he will undoubtedly be in a competitive situation. We also can not forget the value DC has here by being the face of the Texans in a large market. He will certainly lose any endorsements that mirror his current status if he goes elsehwere.

I would certainly guess Carr's FA value would be less than his current contract, but maybe not as much less as you think. Jake Plummer had six underwhelming years in Arizona and had never broken over an 80 passer rating. His TD to INT ratio was worse than Carr's as well. He signed a 7 year $40.7 mil contract with Denver--that averages $5.8 mil per year. Not saying Carr would get that, but it happens and all it takes is one team to pull the trigger.

Folks should keep than in mind from the Texans standpoint as well--the cost of the replacement. Alex Smith's contract averages $8.3 mil per year--with the almost standard 10% increase the #1 pick this year is likely to get about $9.1 mil on average. Carr isn't playing to his contract, but the Texans can't just excise the problem without considering a solution as well.

Frills
11-16-2005, 02:22 PM
For those who think we can draft Vince or Leinart, forget it.

SF, AZ, NO, Jets, Tenn, Bal, and Possibly MINN/GB/OAK will be drafting ahead of us.

1st 9 games, 5 were against teams 7-2 or better...Last 7 games 4 2-7 teams and 2 games with teams over .500

SESupergenius
11-16-2005, 02:23 PM
Yea it would be blasphemy for us to draft Young only to have him get hurt or pounded behind this line, then have Ragone step in anyways.

yaboycm
11-16-2005, 02:31 PM
Disclaimer: rumor site http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm


What I have been saying ALL YEAR. McNair found some football sense. "Carr can't pick up his secondary receiver." What I have been saying all year long.

Vinny
11-16-2005, 02:35 PM
What I have been saying ALL YEAR. McNair found some football sense. "Carr can't pick up his secondary receiver." What I have been saying all year long.Don't pat yourself on the back too hard. For one, this is a rumor site, and two...others have identified this problem years ago.

Doom Capers
11-16-2005, 02:36 PM
Miller was 82
Breuner is 87

Bennie 83? i have no idea.


You must play Madden. That is the only reason I knew his number, lol.

Coach C.
11-16-2005, 02:36 PM
Hey in that same article Aaron Brooks may be available would you all want him.

Frills
11-16-2005, 02:41 PM
After seeing Leinart whine after a hit in the Zona St game, I could only imagine what he'd be like playing behind this line.

Most QB's can find their 2nd WR fairly easily.

Carr can't find it cause 2 seconds into his progressions he's usually on his backside.

Kaiser Toro
11-16-2005, 02:41 PM
Hey in that same article Aaron Brooks may be available would you all want him.

No.

El Tejano
11-16-2005, 03:04 PM
I say bring in some competition for Carr. He never had the luxury of learning from a proven NFL QB.

Blake
11-16-2005, 03:13 PM
You must play Madden. That is the only reason I knew his number, lol.


Haha. I think that is why I knew it. any 80's number looks weird in my mind on him save 83.

rmartin65
11-16-2005, 03:14 PM
Haha. I think that is why I knew it. any 80's number looks weird in my mind on him save 83.
he gets injured in my game...

Wolf
11-16-2005, 03:56 PM
We pay this O-line 12 mil

And people claim the gov't misappropiates funds :brickwall

reminds me of the joke (or someone actually said it).. Coach is yelling at the RB and telling him "don't we pay you 2 million a year to score touchdowns?" The RB responded "Yeah, but they pay him 3 million a year to tackle me"

:tv:

run-david-run
11-16-2005, 04:06 PM
I think this persond was scouring the message board and came across a post from one of our fans saying he thought this way about Carr, but didn't bother to keep up with the rebutals or didn't see the game where Carr layed it right in Brad fords hands for a potentially game tieing score.....as the 2nd reciever.
For further proof, see the Gafney TD pass against Indy. He had time, looked off the defense, pump-faked and found an open Gaff for a TD over the middle.

rmartin65
11-16-2005, 04:08 PM
For further proof, see the Gafney TD pass against Indy. He had time, looked off the defense, pump-faked and found an open Gaff for a TD over the middle.
YES!!!

Coach C.
11-16-2005, 04:12 PM
So bigTexan you are in favor of Carr I take it.

edo783
11-16-2005, 04:13 PM
We also can not forget the value DC has here by being the face of the Texans in a large market. He will certainly lose any endorsements that mirror his current status if he goes elsehwere.

If he goes to the Jets, what he makes in Houston would look like chump change if he is the starter.

rmartin65
11-16-2005, 04:13 PM
If somebody knows how to set up a poll, set one up with those who support Carr and those who want Carr gone. Please.

Coach C.
11-16-2005, 04:18 PM
Vince Young=Randall Cunningham he has a very similar skill set so that is why people feel he will play QB in this league. He will and he will do a good job his first years in the league he will run a good deal and then be able to beat people with his feet and arm. It will take time though.

Reddevil63
11-16-2005, 04:18 PM
Vince Young??? Holy cow. You gotta be kidding. Why do people think that guy can play QB in the NFL.
I want somebody to go to another NFL team, not Dallas, and see what they think of Vince. Ill bet the overwhelming support is confined to the Texas homers we have here.

Coach C.
11-16-2005, 04:20 PM
I HATE UT. I really HATE UT.

Frills
11-16-2005, 04:20 PM
Because Vince is their savior, he led them to their first win after 5 years of humiliation by OU.

Coach C.
11-16-2005, 04:22 PM
I went to school with him...so I think he's actually pretty cool. I think he has the talent, but hasn't been given a fair opportunity. I think every player deserves a chance, but I don't think he has gotten a fair shake. It's not like the problems are hidden either. They are as blaitently obvious and right under the noses of those in charge.

Fresno St. is a sweet campus spent some time in Cali and went up there with this chick for a party man it was sweet.

Back to business though I cannot deny that he has not been given an opportunity and he is a modern day Archie Manning, but in that same vein he does make some mistakes that should be gone by now. I think if we hire a guy like Brian Shottenheimer as OC/QB coach then Carr will be what everyone expects him to be.

Frills
11-16-2005, 04:25 PM
Wasn't Palmer Couch's HC/QBC?

Good track record if I remember correctly

Vinny
11-16-2005, 04:27 PM
This thread isn't about Vince Young or how I hate UT or how much OU sucks. Stay on topic or go talk in the NCAA/draft forum please.

Kaiser Toro
11-16-2005, 04:30 PM
If he goes to the Jets, what he makes in Houston would look like chump change if he is the starter.

Do they have that type of money? Would they be willing to spend that type of money on DC's 4 year performance? What are the Pennington cap implications? They will need to address their RB situation, not to mention a possible coaching change.

Lastly, would David Carr and family be able to hack the NY spotlight and lifestyle?

Vinny
11-16-2005, 05:16 PM
First post to mention Vince was none other than Fiddy. So ban him now. :challenge

As for the article it looks like it was written by a message board hack. No chance in hell the Texans get rid of Carr. Fact is the coaching staff is gone after the season is over. Things will be much improved next year. Another prediction is Coleman will be gone.I'm not banning anyone for being off topic and I'll ban you again if you want to keep making personal attacks.

mexican_texan
11-16-2005, 05:23 PM
PFT did report the Randy Moss trade way before ESPN had the "exclusive"

Dime
11-16-2005, 06:04 PM
Folks.. Carr is NOT where he needs to be on his QB skills. Ok, he makes one or two good passes, but the majority of his passes are badly placed. He is more on target with short passes under 10, but get over 10 and his percentage falls drastically with or without time. He makes 4 bad passes minimum for every good one. He needs someone to either teach him, or replace him. IF it can be taught with coaching, then get him someone before next year. Otherwise, he will be little if no better next year without true guidance and would be a mistake to keep. Personally, I feel the BEST thing for Carr is to go to another team where he will learn from experienced players and improve from experience.. I think we are holding him back from being a decent QB to a great QB. I dont like having to say that, but its probably close to fact if he will be a great QB of the future. :texflag:

Texizgreat
11-16-2005, 06:08 PM
We pay this O-line 12 mil

And people claim the gov't misappropiates funds :brickwall


That was GREAT ..... LOL

Wolf
11-16-2005, 06:09 PM
I say get someone other than Bradford at the #2 spot and get a TE that can block and catch. Then lets see what Carr can do. He makes his mistakes but I"d like to see what would happen with a legit OL and legit WR corp.


I'd also like to see a legit gamebreaking back. We have solid RB by committee right now.

Tedc
11-16-2005, 06:16 PM
Who is David Done? Is he better than David Carr?

utahmark
11-16-2005, 06:19 PM
Folks.. Carr is NOT where he needs to be on his QB skills. Ok, he makes one or two good passes, but the majority of his passes are badly placed. He is more on target with short passes under 10, but get over 10 and his percentage falls drastically with or without time. He makes 4 bad passes minimum for every good one. He needs someone to either teach him, or replace him. IF it can be taught with coaching, then get him someone before next year. Otherwise, he will be little if no better next year without true guidance and would be a mistake to keep. Personally, I feel the BEST thing for Carr is to go to another team where he will learn from experienced players and improve from experience.. I think we are holding him back from being a decent QB to a great QB. I dont like having to say that, but its probably close to fact if he will be a great QB of the future. :texflag:


4 bad passes for every good one?

Goldeagle
11-16-2005, 06:24 PM
I read in the paper today that the team wants to take more shots down the field.....

Well......he did that with a perfect pass to Bradford (who dropped the ball) and the Carr haters were out in full force, He got into trouble with his coach and the fatty old guy who has never earned his money (#96).

LOL, poor guy, he better hope to go to a new team, just so he can win, and all the haters (as in my other post) will whine about us letting yet another guy go who wins.

Goldeagle
11-16-2005, 06:26 PM
Whoever they get better be able to scramble and run or they will look just as bad as Carr behind the pathetic O-Line we have.

Dime
11-16-2005, 06:35 PM
4 bad passes for every good one?

Yep... that statement is VERY accurate to the truth.

dtran04
11-16-2005, 06:44 PM
For a draft spin, wouldn't this make the #1 pick more valuable if there was a chance that we would get Leinhart? We would get more value this way. Nobody would give up the farm if they knew we were pick D'Brick. Obvious......but wanted to point that out.

utahmark
11-16-2005, 07:13 PM
Yep... that statement is VERY accurate to the truth.


so when carr dumps the ball off and the rb gains 7 or 8 yards is that a bad or good pass?

Double Barrel
11-16-2005, 07:25 PM
Super Dave is here to stay.. And we're lucky to have him. Same knocks about him are seen on Eagles MB about their QB. Plus one about interceptions. Anyone here so unhappy about Super Dave effort's can let me know, by letting go of his Texans gear. But I'm not holding my breath when it is so easy to play " blame the QB " :texflag:

I agree with you that Carr is here to stay. I'd be really suprised if they let him go, all things considered. (Kinda' sad that Eagle fans would turn on McNabb considering he's let them to four NFC Championships in a row and they were in the Superbowl just 10 months ago.)

I think threads like these are just fan speculation because there's very little to talk about with a 1-8 team, other than "what ifs" and "how abouts". idonno:

kenneth24
11-16-2005, 08:17 PM
so when carr dumps the ball off and the rb gains 7 or 8 yards is that a bad or good pass?
Thats what I was wondering but I guess with the new math 61% = 1 out of 5 nowadays.

Honoring Earl 34
11-16-2005, 08:51 PM
:tomato: If the Texans feel Carr has trouble with the mental part of the game ... then Palmer , Pendry and Capers all know it and that might explain the vanilla offense . That also might explain an uninspired OL .

tex
11-16-2005, 09:07 PM
how true,how true.

mean mark8
11-16-2005, 09:13 PM
so when carr dumps the ball off and the rb gains 7 or 8 yards is that a bad or good pass?
When it's 3rd and 12 and there's no defensive pressure, it's a bad pass.

Mr. Old School
11-16-2005, 09:44 PM
I'm a Houston Texans season ticket holder. I'm for the Texans 100%. I don't know all the business elements like salary caps and related items. But, I do know that David Carr is not working out. Neither are several others on both sides of the ball. We need some wholesale cleaning from the the GM position, to the coaches level, and definitely the players. This may be carried out over the next two to three years.
I don't see Carr making any improvement...at least not on this team. Some people are on the team just because they're Aggies.
Some people made some very poor choices back when...Boselli, and Juppreau for example. Carr is no exception. If he can't pan out...nothing personal...it's just business my friend. IMO, he lacks the leadership skills and maturity to seriously lead an NFL team to the Promised Land. I know he's religious and very close to his father, but that doesn't count in the NFL.

I feel for Bob McNair...he's a great Houston leader. How much more can he endure. He's got alot more money and patience than I do. Let's get 'er done.

infantrycak
11-16-2005, 09:45 PM
He is more on target with short passes under 10, but get over 10 and his percentage falls drastically with or without time. He makes 4 bad passes minimum for every good one. He needs someone to either teach him, or replace him. IF it can be taught with coaching, then get him someone before next year.

Nothing like flying by the seat of your pants impressions for making hiring and firing decisions.

Mr. Inaccurate aka David Carr--passes from 21-30 yds 44% completions
Peyton the Six Billion Dollar MVP perfect Manning--passes from 21-30 yds 43.8% completions.
Tom Mr. Superbowl Brady--passes from 21-30 yds 29.5% completions

Yep... that statement is VERY accurate to the truth.

Give or take 100% accuracy, you might scinch by.

Honoring Earl 34
11-16-2005, 09:53 PM
:texflag: Funny thing a guy who has 600 at bats and hits 300 % is more impressive than a guy who bats 300 % with 50 at bats .

Texans Pride
11-16-2005, 10:01 PM
Am I the only one sad about this????

When we drafted Carr I NEVER thought even the talk about this would be in our direction. This is a huge wrong turn that our franchise has taken that I didn't think would happen so early in our history.

Regardless if you like Carr or not, no one thought we'd be in this situation in year four....

Texan Gal 312
11-16-2005, 10:09 PM
When it's 3rd and 12 and there's no defensive pressure, it's a bad pass.


LOL - I don't recall every seeing that situation this season - no defensive pressure that is

Dime
11-16-2005, 10:14 PM
so when carr dumps the ball off and the rb gains 7 or 8 yards is that a bad or good pass?

I am talking about ball placement. Go back and watch even the completed passes. On a dump off, it should either lead the reciever or hit him in the numbers when the RB is standing still. Again, under 10 yards, as I have said before, Carr is more accurate. But he still has quite a few bad placement issues even then. Most of the time, the reciever has to compensate for a poorly thrown ball. Dont believe me, just watch the tape and decide from what you see on where the ball was thrown to the reciever, and where it should have been thrown. It makes a difference big time.

Note: I am not asking for a Manning here folks, but I feel when you review it, you will see that the placement is off. Rushed or Not.

Napa Auto Parts
11-16-2005, 10:23 PM
Am I the only one sad about this????

When we drafted Carr I NEVER thought even the talk about this would be in our direction. This is a huge wrong turn that our franchise has taken that I didn't think would happen so early in our history.

Regardless if you like Carr or not, no one thought we'd be in this situation in year four....



Actually did any of use really fall for the david carr Hype i know i never did. David had one awsome season in college thats it. for a how do we say a mediocre football program. four years in to the david carr expiriment he still has funny mechanics very poor leadership on the field and the funniest side arm throw in the business. now im all for resigning him but first we dont give him the 8 million or even 5.5 and let him hit free agency and sign him for the league mininum wich should be enough for his talent. and we draft a QB it worked wonders for drew brees.

Dime
11-16-2005, 10:28 PM
Nothing like flying by the seat of your pants impressions for making hiring and firing decisions.

Mr. Inaccurate aka David Carr--passes from 21-30 yds 44% completions
Peyton the Six Billion Dollar MVP perfect Manning--passes from 21-30 yds 43.8% completions.
Tom Mr. Superbowl Brady--passes from 21-30 yds 29.5% completions



Give or take 100% accuracy, you might scinch by.

Rings? Wins? Hey, you want comparisions to them? Using David Carr and Tom or Peyton in the same sentance in comparision is just plain dumb. Funny thing is, I will give you that there is probably figures out there where David is beating both of them in 5-10 stats.. Heck, a few sack figures really come to mind. Heck, WE NEED TO KEEP CARR... HE has a stat he is beating Payton and Tom at. Lets not change ANYTHING. HE is winning in one stat... Man I feel better... Whoo Hooo... Why are we even talking here... Carr can do it..

One stat does not make a man. His play makes him. Quit making comparisions to Carr when his overall preformance ALL year cant even touch 1/4 of those you speak of.

Cak, maybe I misjudged you, but I think you need to revise your statement. The one you presented here is just just... amazing (mind you, its not a compliment, more of a concern).

Ibar_Harry
11-16-2005, 10:39 PM
Nothing like flying by the seat of your pants impressions for making hiring and firing decisions.

Mr. Inaccurate aka David Carr--passes from 21-30 yds 44% completions
Peyton the Six Billion Dollar MVP perfect Manning--passes from 21-30 yds 43.8% completions.
Tom Mr. Superbowl Brady--passes from 21-30 yds 29.5% completions



Give or take 100% accuracy, you might scinch by.

Infantrycak it is amazing that Carr does as well as he does given the state of coaching and the O-line on this team. I was watching the Monday night game with Dallas and Bledsole. A comment was made about how Bledsole was doing under the tuitorage of Parcells because he understands protection refering to QB protection. Buffalo couldn't wait to get rid of Bledsole and Bledsole might wind up in the SB. It goes to show what coaching means and building confidenance in your QB means. Again, I have never been a Parcells fan, but he is a very good coach who usually finds ways to field a winning ball club. The Texans have one very big problem and it is coaching. To talk about this player or that player makes no sense at all, because they have all been stupified by this coaching staff. They have even made a mess of AJ. This ball club has a lot of untaped talent that is going to waste. Carr is a lot better than a lot of people think, but I will grant you he is no Payton Manning. But then again, how many QB's come along in the mold of Payton Manning?

Dime
11-16-2005, 10:52 PM
so when carr dumps the ball off and the rb gains 7 or 8 yards is that a bad or good pass?

Thats a good question btw.. If you are third and 15, and David Carr dumps it to the RB for 7 or 8 yards, is that a good pass or a bad one?

I got another for ya

If Carr throws a long pass to Bradford, when Andre is 2 steps from a reciever passing over the middle over the first down line, and you are 4th and need to make a play since there is only 1 minute in the game, Is that a bad pass or good pass? (BTW- for the record, Carr had thrown a good pass to Bradford, but Bradford dropped it)

infantrycak
11-16-2005, 11:17 PM
Rings? Wins? Hey, you want comparisions to them? Using David Carr and Tom or Peyton in the same sentence in comparision is just plain dumb.

Good lord reading is evidently not fundamental. Did I in any way say Carr was as good or better than Manning or Brady?--no. This any use of one player's name in conjunction with another player's name has to mean they are in every way the same whine is just lame. Geez this is dumb--if I had used Holcomb and Brooks you would have come back and said so your happy having a QB like Holcomb or Brooks.

Funny thing is, I will give you that there is probably figures out there where David is beating both of them in 5-10 stats.. Heck, a few sack figures really come to mind. Heck, WE NEED TO KEEP CARR... HE has a stat he is beating Payton and Tom at. Lets not change ANYTHING. HE is winning in one stat... Man I feel better... Whoo Hooo... Why are we even talking here... Carr can do it..

One stat does not make a man. His play makes him. Quit making comparisions to Carr when his overall preformance ALL year cant even touch 1/4 of those you speak of.

What BS. You made a particular point on down field accuracy. A specific stat was pulled out on the one issue you were opining oh so strongly on. The natural test for whether Carr's down field accuracy is too poor to be a successful QB is the down field accuracy of irrefutably successful QB's. Evidently, that isn't what is holding his performance back.

TemeculaMike
11-17-2005, 02:23 AM
Actually did any of use really fall for the david carr Hype i know i never did. David had one awsome season in college thats it. for a how do we say a mediocre football program. four years in to the david carr expiriment he still has funny mechanics very poor leadership on the field and the funniest side arm throw in the business. now im all for resigning him but first we dont give him the 8 million or even 5.5 and let him hit free agency and sign him for the league mininum wich should be enough for his talent. and we draft a QB it worked wonders for drew brees.

Last year, Drew Brees had an advantage that David Carr won't have - a well coached (Hudson Hauck) offensive line, a pro bowl tight end named Antonio Gates, and a kid that went to some school in Texas who plays running back ... I forget his name ... LC ... no ... LB ... no ... LT -- yep thats it.

David Carr will never fully realize his potential as an NFL QB as long as the Texans' offensive line remains the weak link.

Carr is at that point in his career where the game slows down. He has the experience which enables him read defenses and coverages faster. Unfortunately, the only thing that is coming at him faster than last year is the opposing teams defensive ends, outside linebackers, and blitzing safeties.

Nighthawk
11-17-2005, 02:27 AM
I cant see this happening. Its more than money. Its more than the record.

David has been the face of this franchise for years. He wont be thrown out like trash. I know the NFL has no loyalties, but sometimes you have to stick with your guy. Build up around him, and then see what the problem is.

This isnt a Kyle Boller, who has a top notch Defense, with an established line, and pro bowl left tackle, and one of the best RB's in the game.

This is David Carr, with a 4 year old franchise, a struggling D, a musical chairs o line, and a good stable of backs.

Also, I have to mention the coaches. Brian Billick, is far more sucessful overall than our own Dom Capers.

Add all of this together, and you can see why we are 1-8.

Pay Carr his money, and get him a LT, G, and a better defense. And to top that off, a new head coach. You know, the kind that like to win. Take chances, and draw up better plays.

Please Take A Clue. He's the "face of the franchise" is silly PR stuff, especially when it's Carr and a new Texans franchise, as opposed to, say Favre and the Packers or something. We (Texans) have given Carr far more than he's worth already, and far more than he's given back to the team.

He DESERVES to be fired.

I'd prefer any of a half-dozen likely-to-be-available retreads at QB and a new coach on the sidelines and a new guy in the front office over Carr, who simply hasn't lived up to his billing.

Nighthawk
11-17-2005, 02:33 AM
According to Keith, his projected Cap hit is much larger....at $7,256,160. He has base salaries of 5.25 and 6 million in addition to his bonus. This year his cap hit is nearly twice as large as the second highest paid Texan.


http://www.houstonprofootball.com/cap2006.html

C'mon, folks, even the Carr apologists gotta admit that's crazy.

Nighthawk
11-17-2005, 02:39 AM
For further proof, see the Gafney TD pass against Indy. He had time, looked off the defense, pump-faked and found an open Gaff for a TD over the middle.

That's one.

Ibar_Harry
11-17-2005, 10:29 AM
Please Take A Clue. He's the "face of the franchise" is silly PR stuff, especially when it's Carr and a new Texans franchise, as opposed to, say Favre and the Packers or something. We (Texans) have given Carr far more than he's worth already, and far more than he's given back to the team.

He DESERVES to be fired.

I'd prefer any of a half-dozen likely-to-be-available retreads at QB and a new coach on the sidelines and a new guy in the front office over Carr, who simply hasn't lived up to his billing.

Again look at the difference in Bledsole at Dallas. Good Coach who knows how to protect. End result is a QB who everyone wanted to get rid of at Buffalo may get into the SB this year. When Bledsole has time he can kill you with his passes. He looks like any other QB and makes bad mistakes when rushed. It's really a simple game folks.

Vinny
11-17-2005, 11:42 AM
Wo, wo wo wo wo wo wo wo!!!! What exactly has this team given Carr, other than being the teams tackling dummy? Easy question to answer. $60 Million dollars and a smaller cap for the rest of the players for play that warrants 1/3 of that money.

infantrycak
11-17-2005, 11:57 AM
Easy question to answer. $60 Million dollars

He hasn't lived up to his contract, but just to be more accurate, Carr hasn't been paid $60 mil--he had a contract that could have paid him up to $60 mil if all contingencies were met. If the 3 year option is exercised he will receive something over $25 mil of that potential. Thru the completion of this year he will have received $21.75 mil. Somewhere there are $13+ in contingencies which have not been met.

Dime
11-17-2005, 11:58 AM
Easy question to answer. $60 Million dollars and a smaller cap for the rest of the players for play that warrants 1/3 of that money.

Originally Posted by Vinny
According to Keith, his projected Cap hit is much larger....at $7,256,160. He has base salaries of 5.25 and 6 million in addition to his bonus. This year his cap hit is nearly twice as large as the second highest paid Texan.


http://www.houstonprofootball.com/cap2006.html

I have a idea.. Lets sign it into contracts that if the team goes worse then 4 and 12 in a season, then the following year, the players earn 1/2 thier salary. Rofl. The harder/better they play, the more thier pay.

Dime
11-17-2005, 12:02 PM
I find it hard to believe that a guy who came to Houston to win has been given practically nothing to play with. The team stumbled upon DD by accident, and AJ is either great or *****. An issue that we have had since the first game in Texan's history that hasn't been addressed. As far as I'm concerned, the $60 mill that he's getting payed doens't come close to the
half-*** job McNair has done to give this guy a chance to succeed. That's like asking a guy to go hit a homer in the bottom of the 9th, and not letting him use a bat. You double that, and that's what Carr deserves for the joke that management has let this team become.

Honestly, as I have pointed to before, I think Carr would be MUCH better now if he had someone (mentor) brought in to start to learn from. Point being that Joey Harrington who was given a team too has not done much at all because he didnt have to EARN the start. Now, habiots have devolped and he doesnt have a QB of decent quality to tell him what he is doing wrong. Classic example in my oponion is going to happen in green bay. When Bret steps down, Arron, who has learned from greatness will be able to work better because of those lessons.

texan0305
11-17-2005, 12:17 PM
man i hope he has like the drew brees effect, remember 2003? Brees looked awfull the next year he gets a stud tight end the running game is the best in the league and they have a decent offensive line. Thats why i think the texans should go after reggie bush it would open up alot for david carr and company, and then in the later rounds just sure up some offensive line help, the line is a few parts away from being decent. I think Hodgen will be a stable for years to come, pitts has done well, and mckinney if he returns is servicable so that leaves two spots on the line if we can upgrade on those two spots, and david has time to throw i think our receivers are good enough to make plays. IMO this offense is a couple of parts away from being the leagues best the talent isnt there now but like i said with the upcoming draft and free agency the team looks like in a good position to make some acquisitions into being competitive in 2006........ Carr with some help can lead this team he's a good qb but needs the parts.

Honoring Earl 34
11-17-2005, 01:14 PM
:texflag: Is Carr worth Pro Bowl money ...no . Ok fine the Texans ruined him that does not make them obligated to extend his contract if he has'nt performed up to it ... I wish I made 25 million buy the time I was 26 .


Don't kid yourself about the team . Carr is not part of the cure anytime soon so that makes him part of the problem . If its true about locking on and having the snap of a wet cracker then he'll never fullfil his physical capabilities . So again we should pay David cause he got his !#!$% kicked I think that would put us farther back . Carr needs to do a new contract or start packing .

utahmark
11-17-2005, 01:15 PM
I am talking about ball placement. Go back and watch even the completed passes. On a dump off, it should either lead the reciever or hit him in the numbers when the RB is standing still. Again, under 10 yards, as I have said before, Carr is more accurate. But he still has quite a few bad placement issues even then. Most of the time, the reciever has to compensate for a poorly thrown ball. Dont believe me, just watch the tape and decide from what you see on where the ball was thrown to the reciever, and where it should have been thrown. It makes a difference big time.

Note: I am not asking for a Manning here folks, but I feel when you review it, you will see that the placement is off. Rushed or Not.


i do go back and watch the tapes. i thought maybe you were counting passes where he didnt go downfield as a poor pass. but apparantly your not. i you go back and count up what you think or good passes and what you think or bad passes. i think it will be diff (even for someone who has already made his mind up) to find 4 bad passes for every one good pass.

Honoring Earl 34
11-17-2005, 01:25 PM
:texflag: What should be the percentage of passes thrown to the right place for a NFL QB ? I think maybe 75% . I include passes thrown away and passes thrown where the reciever is the only one who has a chance for a catch .

infantrycak
11-17-2005, 01:41 PM
:texflag: What should be the percentage of passes thrown to the right place for a NFL QB ? I think maybe 75% . I include passes thrown away and passes thrown where the reciever is the only one who has a chance for a catch .

Well, I am sure the question would vary greatly by distance of the throw, but overall 80+% is probably not a bad number. 60% completions is a pretty good NFL number. Most QB's are around 40% of their incompletions being caused by poor throws--Manning 45%, Bledsoe 38%, Leftwich 52%, Brady 40%, Carr 38%.* So at the end of a 30 attempt day with 18 completions fans should expect 2-3 of the 12 incompletions to be due to poorly thrown balls.

* Should be patently unnecessary, but evidently isn't disclaimer--the fact that Carr's name appears in a list with other QB's does not mean he is equal in all ways or any way other than for the info he is in the list for and maybe not that to the other QB's who are also in the list.

Dime
11-17-2005, 02:03 PM
i do go back and watch the tapes. i thought maybe you were counting passes where he didnt go downfield as a poor pass. but apparantly your not. i you go back and count up what you think or good passes and what you think or bad passes. i think it will be diff (even for someone who has already made his mind up) to find 4 bad passes for every one good pass.

In addition, I also count bad passes when he throws extremely short on 3rd and longs as well. Dumping it off for 4-5 yards on a 3rd and 15 for example.

Dime
11-17-2005, 02:15 PM
:texflag: What should be the percentage of passes thrown to the right place for a NFL QB ? I think maybe 75% . I include passes thrown away and passes thrown where the reciever is the only one who has a chance for a catch .

60% is very good, but you have to concern yourself if the 60%, or 50% or less for that matter are benefical or not. I have seen completions thrown backward, and the player lose 7 yards. While that is a completion, and shows positive on completed passes, it just dont tell the whole story by looking at that stat. On the other side, there are plays like (as I have said a few times today, last time promise) a dump off to a RB on 3rd down and such who has NO chance to get a firstdown. I wish there was someone who tracks information like that. It would give more insite to QB's that are on the field and thier face - value to a team.

Kaiser Toro
11-17-2005, 02:19 PM
60% is very good, but you have to concern yourself if the 60%, or 50% or less for that matter are benefical or not. I have seen completions thrown backward, and the player lose 7 yards. While that is a completion, and shows positive on completed passes, it just dont tell the whole story by looking at that stat. On the other side, there are plays like (as I have said a few times today, last time promise) a dump off to a RB on 3rd down and such who has NO chance to get a firstdown. I wish there was someone who tracks information like that. It would give more insite to QB's that are on the field and thier face - value to a team.

Not sure if my avatar was a complete or incomplete backwards pass :)

infantrycak
11-17-2005, 02:28 PM
In addition, I also count bad passes when he throws extremely short on 3rd and longs as well. Dumping it off for 4-5 yards on a 3rd and 15 for example.

That is at least partially on the coaches. What that reception shows is the coaches schemed the play for the RB to release rather than stay in and block and told the QB to progress through 1 or 2 receivers and then dump to the RB. Without knowing the coverage on the receivers in the progression, there is no way to conclude a dump to the RB is a bad choice.

Sure would help clarity also if folks would use separate terms such as poor throw or bad choice instead of lumping everything into one bad pass category.

mean mark8
11-17-2005, 03:00 PM
That is at least partially on the coaches. What that reception shows is the coaches schemed the play for the RB to release rather than stay in and block and told the QB to progress through 1 or 2 receivers and then dump to the RB. Without knowing the coverage on the receivers in the progression, there is no way to conclude a dump to the RB is a bad choice.
I understand what you're saying about the coaches drilling Carr to throw the ball at all costs in 2.5 seconds but isn't the decision still Carr's? I mean if he has longer protection, can't he decide to hold the ball until someone gets open deeper and still have the RB as a dump-off if pressure does get close? The QB is your field general and I would hope that the coaches would want him to keep looking downfield if he has time. I know this may be a giant leap of faith since he did get chewed out by the OC and a defensive lineman for making a perfect throw to Bradford. I would also hope that if the reason Carr is dumping the ball off too early is because he is being forced to do so by the coaches, he's arguing like all get-out in practice this week to let him hold it longer if the protection is there. Of course, you know I'm all for giving Ragone a shot to see if he can find deeper routes in the 2.5 seconds.

Just out of curiosity, in your review of the game video tape, how many times did you see Carr get knocked to the ground after one of his dump-off passes? IMO, a true NFL QB would be getting hit on at least 75% of his drop-off passes because they should be the receiver of last resort. Again, I know it may be the coaches' drilling, but the information would be interesting.

infantrycak
11-17-2005, 03:13 PM
I understand what you're saying about the coaches drilling Carr to throw the ball at all costs in 2.5 seconds but isn't the decision still Carr's?

Normally I would say holding the ball is mainly a QB decision, but the Texans aren't normal right now. They have horns at practice, Pendry is jumping Carr for sacks if he holds the ball, the media and fans are as well. The whole offense is geared to get the ball out of the QB's hands and in the end his job is to do what the coach says (I personally would respect Carr more if I saw a little more fight against the system). With the pass protection issues the Texans have, they wouldn't have Wells and the other backs releasing if they didn't want Carr dumping--they would leave one or both in for pass protection. Frankly it is very Caperish game management--take the 4 safe yards and see if the back can do something rather than hold the ball and risk an 8 yd loss--field position is king.

Just out of curiosity, in your review of the game video tape, how many times did you see Carr get knocked to the ground after one of his dump-off passes?

I haven't separately broken that out but I have tried to note if the pass protection was breaking down as the ball is released so folks can make that kind of assessment.

Dime
11-17-2005, 03:43 PM
That is at least partially on the coaches. What that reception shows is the coaches schemed the play for the RB to release rather than stay in and block and told the QB to progress through 1 or 2 receivers and then dump to the RB. Without knowing the coverage on the receivers in the progression, there is no way to conclude a dump to the RB is a bad choice.

Sure would help clarity also if folks would use separate terms such as poor throw or bad choice instead of lumping everything into one bad pass category.

Sorry folks, maybe I could be more clear.
For me, a bad pass is just that. A pass thrown that does not either get the job done, Poorly placed, or a bad decision. They all result in the same sad result. A turnover be it by interception or punt.

Honoring Earl 34
11-17-2005, 04:22 PM
:tomato: Correct me if I'm wrong but I consider AJ a better player than Carr . So I would not compare him to a Chicken also I think Gaffney is at least as good as Carr and the coaches have not done him justice either .

Vinny
11-17-2005, 04:35 PM
Pardon me. AJ is a bloody good WR. He just has a problem consistently catching the easy ones that right in his gut. Gaffney puzzles me, because when he does catch the ball, he looks good. Other times it seems he's lost. I will watch carefully Sun. at both WRs.You have admittedly only watched a couple of games....please tell me how you came to these conclusions if you would be so kind.

Vinny
11-17-2005, 04:48 PM
I work for a CBS station, and I can get videos sometimes of the games sent to me from a buddy in NY, where they record them...I get hooked up. I saw the JAX, both IND, BUFF, and SEA. These are the games I have seen, not every game.The last time we were on national TV you posted that this was your first chance to see a Texans game since the last time we were on National TV. I just figured that story was the right story.

SESupergenius
11-17-2005, 04:55 PM
next witness.

eriadoc
11-17-2005, 05:00 PM
LOL Ses! That avatar is too funny! :thumbup

bigcarlos
11-17-2005, 08:28 PM
We need Vince:texflag:

DocBar
11-17-2005, 08:56 PM
Here's an idea....let's see how "versatile" Casserly is(finding another job) and get a GM in that can evaluate talent and quit trying to look like a genius for finding idamonds hwere other people see turds. Other than that, give Carr the ball nad the freedom to call whatever he feels like at the LOS. I say thake the 5.5 option and do whatever it takes to get a decent oline next year. If that fails, let's see what Ragone can do

royce1054
11-17-2005, 09:47 PM
I believe they will prob restructure Carr's deal so that he wont be due a huge roster bonus. I serious believe he will be back. If they cant restructure the deal i believe he will become a free agent. Might be Ragone's or another FA's time to shine. We need to spend more money on our O-line and get someone who can protect our QB no matter who it is

utahmark
11-17-2005, 11:03 PM
In addition, I also count bad passes when he throws extremely short on 3rd and longs as well. Dumping it off for 4-5 yards on a 3rd and 15 for example.

i went back and watched some of the game and your 4 bad to 1 good theory is wrong. just glancing through a couple of series mainly looking at pitts i noticed around 8 passes right on the money. i didnt watch the whole game but just going with those 8 he would need 32 bad passes to make your formula correct.

Dime
11-18-2005, 12:30 AM
i went back and watched some of the game and your 4 bad to 1 good theory is wrong. just glancing through a couple of series mainly looking at pitts i noticed around 8 passes right on the money. i didnt watch the whole game but just going with those 8 he would need 32 bad passes to make your formula correct.

So on these 8 passes which make my formula totally wrong. They were all right on the money huh. Eight back to back completions, and all of them working together with runs got first downs. He was 16 of 25 the last game (which I am guessing you are talking about) so that means he had 8 straight completions and the other remaining 8 had 9 incompletions in between them. It is strange on last game i could not find 8 completions in a row. http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20051113_HOU@IND
Very weird.. You must be meaning every pass that he had thrown was on target hitting the reciever either in the hands or leading the reciever correctly. If that is the case, the I wonder why we were even running it if he was that accurate. He did have a passing touchdown. But lets look at the drives... BTW- Sadly, I dont have tape of the last game, but this will tell the story a bit.

Houston Texans at 12:43

3-12-HOU29 (10:07) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass to V.Morency to HST 36 for 7 yards (J.David).

David's first throw of the game, at 3 and 12 he drops it to Morency who is short of the first down line. - My book - Bad pass because he didnt get it to a reciever over the first down line. Both Morency and Carrs fault. Morency for standing in wrong spot, Carrs for dropping it to him. Punted.

1-10-HOU26 (4:24) D.Carr pass to A.Johnson pushed ob at HST 34 for 8 yards (B.Sanders).
PENALTY on IND-B.Sanders, Taunting, 15 yards, enforced at HST 34.
1-10-HOU49 (4:03) D.Carr pass incomplete to A.Johnson.
3-5-IND46 (3:14) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to A.Johnson.
4-5-IND46 (3:08) C.Stanley punts 32 yards to IND 14, Center-B.Pittman, fair catch by T.Walters.

One good pass with a help of a penalty, 2 drops, a punt again

2-8-HOU34 (10:30) D.Carr pass incomplete to A.Johnson.
3-8-HOU34 (10:25) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to J.Gaffney.
4-8-HOU34 (10:20) C.Stanley punts 44 yards to IND 22, Center-B.Pittman. T.Walters to IND 29 for 7 yards (R.Walker).

Next series... same without a good pass.

1-10-IND34 (2:55) D.Carr pass to A.Johnson to IND 20 for 14 yards (G.Brackett).
1-10-IND20 (2:19) D.Carr pass to J.Wells to IND 14 for 6 yards (J.David, M.Jackson).

With the help of a muffed punt, Carr pulls out a good pass and a drop off pass.. we will count it good too since it helped to make a TD with Wells TD RUN.

1-10-HOU31 (1:05) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to V.Morency (D.Freeney).
1-10-HOU40 (14:54) D.Carr pass to M.Rivers to HST 44 for 4 yards (G.Brackett, C.June).
3-3-IND42 (11:38) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass to A.Johnson pushed ob at IND 34 for 8 yards (N.Harper).
1-10-IND34 (11:14) D.Carr sacked at IND 34 for 0 yards (M.Reagor, C.June).
2-10-IND34 (10:33) D.Carr pass to A.Johnson to IND 22 for 12 yards (N.Harper).
3-1-IND13 (8:32) D.Carr pass to J.Gaffney for 13 yards, TOUCHDOWN

Hmmm.. Got a saving grace by a indy Penalty on a 4th down. 4 passes caught with a TD. Only one hit the dirt this time.


2-10-HOU27 (5:10) D.Carr pass to M.Rivers to HST 29 for 2 yards (C.June).
3-8-HOU29 (4:24) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to A.Johnson.
4-8-HOU29 (4:18) C.Stanley punts 31 yards to IND 40, Center-B.Pittman.
1-10-IND30 (4:05) D.Carr pass incomplete to J.Gaffney.
2-10-IND30 (4:04) D.Carr pass to J.Gaffney to IND 14 for 16 yards (J.David, C.June).
2-11-IND15 (2:41) D.Carr to IND 12 for 3 yards (C.June, M.Reagor).
3-8-IND12 (1:59) D.Carr pass to V.Morency to IND 6 for 6 yards (M.Doss, M.Jackson).

Again, We are saved here with another muffed punt from indy. A 2nd and 10 for 2 yards.. sound like a dump off, but i cant see it so I cant tell. We will call it good. Another dumpoff at 1:59 with only 1 pass hitting a WR.

1-10-HOU34 (11:23) D.Carr pass to J.Wells to HST 40 for 6 yards (C.June).
3-1-HOU43 (10:06) D.Carr pass to D.Armstrong to IND 44 for 13 yards (J.David).
2-7-IND41 (8:46) D.Carr pass to D.Armstrong to IND 29 for 12 yards (J.David).
1-10-IND29 (8:21) D.Carr sacked at IND 33 for -4 yards (L.Tripplett).
2-14-IND33 (7:47) D.Carr pass incomplete to J.Gaffney.
3-14-IND33 (7:42) (Shotgun) D.Carr to IND 27 for 6 yards (G.Brackett).
4-8-IND27 (7:11) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to J.Gaffney.

Start with a dump off , then a good pass times 2, then more dirt hitting.

2-7-HOU21 (4:30) (Shotgun) D.Carr sacked at HST 13 for -8 yards (D.Freeney). Penalty on HST-M.Brown, Offensive Holding, declined.
3-15-HOU13 (4:24) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass to J.Wells ran ob at HST 18 for 5 yards (M.Reagor).

Another dump off. Are you seeing a trend here... 3 and 15, and you dump it to 5 yards.

Dump offs are only good IF they help lead to a first down. I am guessing here since I didnt get video of the last game but almost 50% of Carr's completed passes were dumpoffs. Of those 7 dump offs, 4 of them did not lead to first downs in that series. Meaning 3 of them were benefitical. That means of the 16 completed passes to me, 12 of 25 were good passes, and that is even before I look at ball placement.

Tell ya what. So this is totally fair.. I will record and using my oponion on the next game, list the good and the bad throws and see if i am just totally wrong (which I have no beef saying if I am), or a bit closer to the truth then some of you would like to admit.

Dime
11-18-2005, 12:43 AM
BTW folks..

I am not trying to troll trash Carr here. I trying to speak about what we all are concerned about here. Is Carr performance worth 8+ million next year based on his performance this year (his progression on year 4). With 16 pass and catches last game, and almost 50% of those were check downs, and 3 sacks (granted, sacks not all his fault, but some what) does he deserve the 8+ million bonus next year and have the vision to become a great QB for us. Thats what I am trying to decide for me. A concerned fan.:texflag:

infantrycak
11-18-2005, 08:49 AM
Dump offs are only good IF they help lead to a first down. I am guessing here since I didnt get video of the last game but almost 50% of Carr's completed passes were dumpoffs. Of those 7 dump offs, 4 of them did not lead to first downs in that series. Meaning 3 of them were benefitical. That means of the 16 completed passes to me, 12 of 25 were good passes, and that is even before I look at ball placement.

Tell ya what. So this is totally fair.. I will record and using my oponion on the next game, list the good and the bad throws and see if i am just totally wrong (which I have no beef saying if I am), or a bit closer to the truth then some of you would like to admit.

Well looking at the broadcast will let you judge ball placement, but it really isn't going to let you judge whether a dump off was a wise decision most of the time. The camera stays on the QB until release and generally doesn't show down field much until the ball is in the air so you can't tell the coverage as the QB makes his reads--and that is important and difficult as well. Vinny has been trying to convince the Texans to make coaches game tape available, but without luck so far.

Dime
11-18-2005, 09:45 AM
Well looking at the broadcast will let you judge ball placement, but it really isn't going to let you judge whether a dump off was a wise decision most of the time. The camera stays on the QB until release and generally doesn't show down field much until the ball is in the air so you can't tell the coverage as the QB makes his reads--and that is important and difficult as well. Vinny has been trying to convince the Texans to make coaches game tape available, but without luck so far.

For me, a dump off on 1st or 2nd down can be benefitical when it gives the offense a help to get to 3rd and 3 or less. On third down, a dump off is only acceptable if you are trying to give the punter room to punt back in your goal or for a first down. Throwing a dump off on a 3rd and 15 is just mortifying unless there isnt a guy for 10 yards on him. I would feel much better if he held it till the last few seconds and then threw it away (to make sure it wasnt interceptable, but he kept it as long has he can to hopefully get a guy open). I can see a few dump offs in a game, but with almost 50% of them being dump offs, and over 1/2 of those didnt work at all for the first, just isnt what i like to see.

infantrycak
11-18-2005, 10:04 AM
I would feel much better if he held it till the last few seconds and then threw it away (to make sure it wasnt interceptable, but he kept it as long has he can to hopefully get a guy open). I can see a few dump offs in a game, but with almost 50% of them being dump offs, and over 1/2 of those didnt work at all for the first, just isnt what i like to see.

I can certainly see that view point and if the protection is holding up I would rather see him hold the ball and let something develop as well, BUT if I had to take a bet on what Pendry/Capers are telling Carr it is go thru the designed reads and then dump. Here is a classic Capers stat for you as well. In his career here DD has caught 17 receptions on 3rd and more than 11 yds (so Capers would say it really doesn't happenn all that often) and on 5 of those DD has gotten 1st downs with his average gain being almost 10 yds, so almost one third of the time it is successful, protects field position and protects the QB. Now if there is an open receiver in the progression it is all on Carr, but if not I'd bet it is a Pendry/Capers call.

utahmark
11-18-2005, 10:32 AM
So on these 8 passes which make my formula totally wrong. They were all right on the money huh. Eight back to back completions, and all of them working together with runs got first downs. He was 16 of 25 the last game (which I am guessing you are talking about) so that means he had 8 straight completions and the other remaining 8 had 9 incompletions in between them. It is strange on last game i could not find 8 completions in a row. http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20051113_HOU@IND
Very weird.. You must be meaning every pass that he had thrown was on target hitting the reciever either in the hands or leading the reciever correctly. If that is the case, the I wonder why we were even running it if he was that accurate. He did have a passing touchdown. But lets look at the drives... BTW- Sadly, I dont have tape of the last game, but this will tell the story a bit.

Houston Texans at 12:43

3-12-HOU29 (10:07) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass to V.Morency to HST 36 for 7 yards (J.David).

David's first throw of the game, at 3 and 12 he drops it to Morency who is short of the first down line. - My book - Bad pass because he didnt get it to a reciever over the first down line. Both Morency and Carrs fault. Morency for standing in wrong spot, Carrs for dropping it to him. Punted.

1-10-HOU26 (4:24) D.Carr pass to A.Johnson pushed ob at HST 34 for 8 yards (B.Sanders).
PENALTY on IND-B.Sanders, Taunting, 15 yards, enforced at HST 34.
1-10-HOU49 (4:03) D.Carr pass incomplete to A.Johnson.
3-5-IND46 (3:14) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to A.Johnson.
4-5-IND46 (3:08) C.Stanley punts 32 yards to IND 14, Center-B.Pittman, fair catch by T.Walters.

One good pass with a help of a penalty, 2 drops, a punt again

2-8-HOU34 (10:30) D.Carr pass incomplete to A.Johnson.
3-8-HOU34 (10:25) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to J.Gaffney.
4-8-HOU34 (10:20) C.Stanley punts 44 yards to IND 22, Center-B.Pittman. T.Walters to IND 29 for 7 yards (R.Walker).

Next series... same without a good pass.

1-10-IND34 (2:55) D.Carr pass to A.Johnson to IND 20 for 14 yards (G.Brackett).
1-10-IND20 (2:19) D.Carr pass to J.Wells to IND 14 for 6 yards (J.David, M.Jackson).

With the help of a muffed punt, Carr pulls out a good pass and a drop off pass.. we will count it good too since it helped to make a TD with Wells TD RUN.

1-10-HOU31 (1:05) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to V.Morency (D.Freeney).
1-10-HOU40 (14:54) D.Carr pass to M.Rivers to HST 44 for 4 yards (G.Brackett, C.June).
3-3-IND42 (11:38) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass to A.Johnson pushed ob at IND 34 for 8 yards (N.Harper).
1-10-IND34 (11:14) D.Carr sacked at IND 34 for 0 yards (M.Reagor, C.June).
2-10-IND34 (10:33) D.Carr pass to A.Johnson to IND 22 for 12 yards (N.Harper).
3-1-IND13 (8:32) D.Carr pass to J.Gaffney for 13 yards, TOUCHDOWN

Hmmm.. Got a saving grace by a indy Penalty on a 4th down. 4 passes caught with a TD. Only one hit the dirt this time.


2-10-HOU27 (5:10) D.Carr pass to M.Rivers to HST 29 for 2 yards (C.June).
3-8-HOU29 (4:24) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to A.Johnson.
4-8-HOU29 (4:18) C.Stanley punts 31 yards to IND 40, Center-B.Pittman.
1-10-IND30 (4:05) D.Carr pass incomplete to J.Gaffney.
2-10-IND30 (4:04) D.Carr pass to J.Gaffney to IND 14 for 16 yards (J.David, C.June).
2-11-IND15 (2:41) D.Carr to IND 12 for 3 yards (C.June, M.Reagor).
3-8-IND12 (1:59) D.Carr pass to V.Morency to IND 6 for 6 yards (M.Doss, M.Jackson).

Again, We are saved here with another muffed punt from indy. A 2nd and 10 for 2 yards.. sound like a dump off, but i cant see it so I cant tell. We will call it good. Another dumpoff at 1:59 with only 1 pass hitting a WR.

1-10-HOU34 (11:23) D.Carr pass to J.Wells to HST 40 for 6 yards (C.June).
3-1-HOU43 (10:06) D.Carr pass to D.Armstrong to IND 44 for 13 yards (J.David).
2-7-IND41 (8:46) D.Carr pass to D.Armstrong to IND 29 for 12 yards (J.David).
1-10-IND29 (8:21) D.Carr sacked at IND 33 for -4 yards (L.Tripplett).
2-14-IND33 (7:47) D.Carr pass incomplete to J.Gaffney.
3-14-IND33 (7:42) (Shotgun) D.Carr to IND 27 for 6 yards (G.Brackett).
4-8-IND27 (7:11) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass incomplete to J.Gaffney.

Start with a dump off , then a good pass times 2, then more dirt hitting.

2-7-HOU21 (4:30) (Shotgun) D.Carr sacked at HST 13 for -8 yards (D.Freeney). Penalty on HST-M.Brown, Offensive Holding, declined.
3-15-HOU13 (4:24) (Shotgun) D.Carr pass to J.Wells ran ob at HST 18 for 5 yards (M.Reagor).

Another dump off. Are you seeing a trend here... 3 and 15, and you dump it to 5 yards.

Dump offs are only good IF they help lead to a first down. I am guessing here since I didnt get video of the last game but almost 50% of Carr's completed passes were dumpoffs. Of those 7 dump offs, 4 of them did not lead to first downs in that series. Meaning 3 of them were benefitical. That means of the 16 completed passes to me, 12 of 25 were good passes, and that is even before I look at ball placement.

Tell ya what. So this is totally fair.. I will record and using my oponion on the next game, list the good and the bad throws and see if i am just totally wrong (which I have no beef saying if I am), or a bit closer to the truth then some of you would like to admit.


maybe you should read my post more slowly. no one ever said those completions were in a row. i said i saw around 8 good passes in watching just part of the game.

you dont have tape of the game and your telling me how many good passes he had. arent you the one that told me i needed to go back and watch the game before coming to a conclusion. dude! heed your own advice.

utahmark
11-18-2005, 10:48 AM
I am talking about ball placement. Go back and watch even the completed passes. On a dump off, it should either lead the reciever or hit him in the numbers when the RB is standing still. Again, under 10 yards, as I have said before, Carr is more accurate. But he still has quite a few bad placement issues even then. Most of the time, the reciever has to compensate for a poorly thrown ball. Dont believe me, just watch the tape and decide from what you see on where the ball was thrown to the reciever, and where it should have been thrown. It makes a difference big time.

Note: I am not asking for a Manning here folks, but I feel when you review it, you will see that the placement is off. Rushed or Not.

it looks like you are changing the rules to your formula. in this post your said your just talking about ball placement. now your saying if he dumps the ball off at the wrong time its a bad pass.

either way carr doesnt throw 4 bad passes to one good one. you were exagerating a bit and i was just trying to make you be a little more realistic. carr complets over 60% of his passes. even if 10% of his completions or bad passes thats a 1 to 1 ratio. no where near the 4 to 1 you said.

BigBull17
11-18-2005, 10:59 AM
For me, a dump off on 1st or 2nd down can be benefitical when it gives the offense a help to get to 3rd and 3 or less. On third down, a dump off is only acceptable if you are trying to give the punter room to punt back in your goal or for a first down. Throwing a dump off on a 3rd and 15 is just mortifying unless there isnt a guy for 10 yards on him. I would feel much better if he held it till the last few seconds and then threw it away (to make sure it wasnt interceptable, but he kept it as long has he can to hopefully get a guy open). I can see a few dump offs in a game, but with almost 50% of them being dump offs, and over 1/2 of those didnt work at all for the first, just isnt what i like to see.

You dump it off on third down to live to punt. You dont forcce passes into coverage to try and get the first. On fourth down yeah you have nothing to lose but on third and long you dump it off to a back when nothing is open and live to punt anouther day.
:texflag:

Dime
11-18-2005, 01:15 PM
it looks like you are changing the rules to your formula. in this post your said your just talking about ball placement. now your saying if he dumps the ball off at the wrong time its a bad pass.

either way carr doesnt throw 4 bad passes to one good one. you were exagerating a bit and i was just trying to make you be a little more realistic. carr complets over 60% of his passes. even if 10% of his completions or bad passes thats a 1 to 1 ratio. no where near the 4 to 1 you said.

hehe... you folks are funny. I try to explain to you what I meant in the last few posts and it passes right over your head. Wow.. he is 60% completion ratio for his passes, funny thing is.. so are other QB's. Problem is, for those who still believe Carr is the answer, we are 8 and 1 folks, and all the blame does not fall at the coaches feet.

TEXANRED
11-18-2005, 01:17 PM
BTW folks..

I am not trying to troll trash Carr here. I trying to speak about what we all are concerned about here. Is Carr performance worth 8+ million next year based on his performance this year (his progression on year 4). With 16 pass and catches last game, and almost 50% of those were check downs, and 3 sacks (granted, sacks not all his fault, but some what) does he deserve the 8+ million bonus next year and have the vision to become a great QB for us. Thats what I am trying to decide for me. A concerned fan.:texflag:

I am one of the biggest Carr fans around but not even I could say yes to that question. Even though the line is bad, the D is bad, the coaching is bad and the system is bad, I still haven't seen anything from Carr other than potential. And potential for anything other than a rookie first round isn't worth 8 million.

That does hurt me to say that.

johnboy
11-18-2005, 01:17 PM
You dump it off on third down to live to punt. You dont forcce passes into coverage to try and get the first. On fourth down yeah you have nothing to lose but on third and long you dump it off to a back when nothing is open and live to punt anouther day.
:texflag:


If nobody is open thats the problem,(are other people open) in the two years that I have been watching the texans I do not think I ever saw a receiver wide open they are always covered you would think the other team would sometime blow the covage on the texans receivers.Either it does not happen or Carr does not is them.???????

Vinny
11-18-2005, 01:23 PM
If nobody is open thats the problem,(are other people open) in the two years that I have been watching the texans I do not think I ever saw a receiver wide open they are always covered you would think the other team would sometime blow the covage on the texans receivers.Either it does not happen or Carr does not is them.???????When AJ went down Gaffney catches 9 passes in one game. If he can get open vs the CB1 then why would we assume he can't get open vs the CB2 or a Safety in the slot? Gaffney can't throw the ball to himself and right now I think he is just as much a victim of his talent around him as anyone in this offense, but people always point to him as one of Carr's excuses as to why he doesn’t spread the ball around. So far in this offense with Carr leading it...First read - you get the ball. Last read - you get the ball. Players in the middle? tough luck

utahmark
11-18-2005, 02:30 PM
hehe... you folks are funny. I try to explain to you what I meant in the last few posts and it passes right over your head. Wow.. he is 60% completion ratio for his passes, funny thing is.. so are other QB's. Problem is, for those who still believe Carr is the answer, we are 8 and 1 folks, and all the blame does not fall at the coaches feet.

i wasnt arguing whether or not carr is the answer. i could'nt see where you got that 4 to 1 stuff from. you are now just changing the subject.

im not sure carr is the answer. if he keeps getting more time to throw like he has been the last couple of games we can start to find out though. till then i dont think we have enough info.

real
11-18-2005, 02:35 PM
Does anyone think that we whould just let Carr be a FA...An if so who would you like to see at QB? I would like to pick up john kitna whether we keep Carr or not...Just a QB that we know can come in and operate a team..

Texas_Thrill
11-18-2005, 06:19 PM
Maybe Brian Billick can make Carr work like he did Boller. :tv:

NeViKaN
11-18-2005, 07:34 PM
You can't pay the guy millions just because he is "the face of the franchise". If our front office makes moves like that, we will be in cap hell pretty quick.

Hmmm cut off your nose to spite your face???

My question is can he choose not to take the bonus? If I was him I would skip out of town and look to Miami or Balt (both good defense and good line). I truely believe that he would show all you Carr haters how wrong you are. When he finaly got decent protection in Jacs. he looked realy good. And I have watched the replay. YES JOHNSON came open put not till after the ball was thrown. And Bradford should have made the catch regardless of how open Johnson was. And finaly Johnson dropped the last pass thrown to him, and yes he was wide open then.
I guess that it does not matter. This is a topic that will go round and round
:brickwall

Bobo
11-19-2005, 04:09 AM
Wow. Could be a total house cleaning from top to bottom.

I doubt that. This is basically the same team that won seven games last year. It hasn't changed much since then.

HJam72
11-19-2005, 04:25 AM
I doubt that. This is basically the same team that won seven games last year. It hasn't changed much since then.

Actually, I think it's changed a lot. It's been coached into oblivion. Even Johnson and Robinson are looking average instead of studley. Well, OK Robinson can still knock people's heads off, but he's not doing quite as well in coverage lately IMO.

HoustonFan
11-19-2005, 10:33 AM
I would hate for Carr to become free agent, and go elsewhere and do well. This could very well happen.

nflnutswife
11-19-2005, 10:38 AM
I would hate for Carr to become free agent, and go elsewhere and do well. This could very well happen.

That's been my thoughts. No QB can perform under our current OL. I believe Carr has the ability he just needs the protection and confidence to return. I want him here!:texflag:

Napa Auto Parts
11-19-2005, 11:12 AM
I say lets give carr a chance to hit free agency my god its not like 31 other nfl teams are waiting to sign him he might get and offer or two but it would be cheaper for us as a franchise. to sign him on free agency with his playing ability we would get david carr dirt cheap.:highfive:

OzzO
11-19-2005, 11:32 AM
Hmmm cut off your nose to spite your face???

My question is can he choose not to take the bonus? If I was him I would skip out of town and look to Miami or Balt (both good defense and good line). ...

David mentioned on 610 Friday morning that he's wanting to stay in Houston as he enjoys working for McNair and feels he's one of the better owners out there that will do what is necessary to get to the Super Bowl and that one of David's main goals is to get Bob to the superbowl because he has that muc respect for him... basically, he wants to stay.

Dime
11-19-2005, 12:05 PM
David mentioned on 610 Friday morning that he's wanting to stay in Houston as he enjoys working for McNair and feels he's one of the better owners out there that will do what is necessary to get to the Super Bowl and that one of David's main goals is to get Bob to the superbowl because he has that muc respect for him... basically, he wants to stay.

I would want to stay to for 8+ million. My question is, IF he is not retained, do we get comp picks for him if he is picked up by someone?

NFLforher
11-19-2005, 01:16 PM
I would hate for Carr to become free agent, and go elsewhere and do well. This could very well happen.


It would happen, IMO.

Kaiser Toro
11-19-2005, 01:19 PM
And the Texans could be better off as well. It sometimes seems that people are more enthralled with Carr and his future than the future performance of the Texans.

Lucky
11-19-2005, 01:20 PM
My question is can he choose not to take the bonus?
No. Not unless Carr retires from football. It's the Texans' option to pay the bonus and extend the contract. And they've said the bonus will be paid before the end of this season.

My question is, IF he is not retained, do we get comp picks for him if he is picked up by someone?
Yes, but only if the total value of free agents the Texans lose is greater than the value of the free agents they bring in. And the compensation picks would be for the 2007 draft.

NFLforher
11-19-2005, 09:26 PM
Does anyone think that we whould just let Carr be a FA...An if so who would you like to see at QB? I would like to pick up john kitna whether we keep Carr or not...Just a QB that we know can come in and operate a team..


Kitna?

:tomato:

NFLforher
11-19-2005, 09:29 PM
And the Texans could be better off as well. It sometimes seems that people are more enthralled with Carr and his future than the future performance of the Texans.

Well, there are some who think Carr could provide the Texans with a good future if he gets some help.

thegr8fan
11-20-2005, 12:21 AM
Well, there are some who think Carr could provide the Texans with a good future if he gets some help. and still others who realize Carr is as much a part of the problem himself as the O-line is. Until Carr improves himself he is just another 'potential great' QB, but unfortunately he is currently a 'Never Was'. For 8 million, it isn't a good deal to bring him back, IMHO. For 5.5 million and 2 years, re-sign him and lets see what happens in 2 years when we draft his replacement and rebuild with a new coaching staff/Gm and thier picks for an O-line.

It wouldn't break my heart though if the Texans let him go on the market and see what other teams think he is worth. I bet it wouldn't be 8 million signing bonus type offers.

HJam72
11-20-2005, 12:56 AM
No....sorry, this team has no backbone. It's more like soft cartilage. :rolleyes:

I want a new coach....and a new GM....and a few new O-linemen....and P-burnt gone....and another really good receiver (not TO!)....and no more Bradford....and a pass rush....and a stud RB who can also block well....

....oh, and this team needs more loyal fans. :cool: I should really be fired. :bomb:

Double Barrel
11-20-2005, 11:04 AM
Dave having a good game sunday night, and us winning another game. Yes, I would get a kick, thinking of the cry-babies from here.. worried like the IRS is after them when the posters of "Fire everyone' realize how they jumped ship because we sputtered the 1st part of the year. So glad the team has more backbone than they do..

HAHAHAHA!! you so funny....not.

"sputtered"?! Dude, I'm slowly coming to the realization that you're either crazy or senile. :crazy:

1-8 is "sputtering"?! Never leading at any point in the first six games is "sputtering", a record not touched in the NFL since 1933?!?

Ed Biles, is that you?

I'm honestly coming to the conclusion that you've officially lost touch with reality. :howdy:

Benjamin Franklin said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I think ol' Ben would consider you on the verge of insanity. :ok:

[/chain pull] :neener:

Heywood
11-20-2005, 11:38 AM
this is like an ID thread- you folks don't blame casserly for the reach pick on joppru and you think several other teams would like to pay carr $8 million to play QB for them.

whatever.

Honoring Earl 34
11-20-2005, 01:16 PM
:texflag: That reminds me ... don't do crack .
I think I bust my butt at work and I'm not allowed to fail that much or I'd be unemployed . All this and I've got to pay to see this bad brand of football .

Honoring Earl 34
11-20-2005, 01:44 PM
:texflag: Well caddy its a free country and board so go plant some rye grass and stare at the clouds .

tulexan
11-20-2005, 01:52 PM
You don't have to pay for anything. Just watch it on TV.

Honoring Earl 34
11-20-2005, 02:01 PM
:texflag: Yeah thats it nobody pay .

Double Barrel
11-20-2005, 02:28 PM
Grow up.. the NFL is tough enough without boo whoo boys. :texflag:

Then why do you persist? :rolleyes:

Why are you emotional because people express their opinions on an internet forum? What is the point of your existence here if it's not to share opinions with other Texans Fans? Other than to insult and badger people, of course...if that's your thing.

Later dude, I'm off to yell my heart and soul out in support the TEAM, the coaching staff be darned. You can stay and wallow in your anger if you want to.

LOUD, PROUD & TEXAN!! :texflag:

ghostlight
11-20-2005, 06:13 PM
Caddy, lighten up. You will have a long and enjoying life on this forum if the ignore feature is not used. Keep posting and so will everybody else. We need to have all sides expressed without getting personal. Most of us go back to the early Oiler days when it was as painful as it is now and all hoped for better days. We are still hoping for better days and will not give up on our team but we will complain and cheer as we feel like. I'd rather watch the Texans lose than watch the Cowboys win. Not to mean I'd rather the Texans lose.

The key is don't get personal and call names because you may be sitting next to that person at the next game. All of us love each other and hands across Texas and all that flower stuff. Get the picture.

Carr Bombed
11-20-2005, 06:21 PM
somebody shoot me is this what being a texan fan has come to........aw I remember the good ol days of being a first and second year expansion team where we had a legitimate excuse for losing.