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View Full Version : Take on re-signing Carr


yaboycm
11-15-2005, 07:37 PM
If Carr was on a different team, performing at the level he is, and we paid him an $8 million bonus and signed him to a long term deal, all of you people would throw a fit. This year is a rebuidling year, next year will be a rebuilding year, and probably the year after that will be a rebuilding year. You don't pay below average players big bucks.

http://www.tommyburley.com/Sports/young_vince_02.jpeg

real
11-15-2005, 07:37 PM
Agreed

Coach C.
11-15-2005, 07:49 PM
Well this is interesting. By the way there are two options that we have for Carr and the one we are likely to excersise is for 5.5 million. With the pieces that we have here now we can acheive a good deal of success next year with the right FA's brought in. Instead of Bush 06 and Young 07, You should think Lecharles Bentley, some OLs, another CB and a some pass rush specialist.

real
11-15-2005, 07:51 PM
Bush 06
Young 07

yaboycm
11-15-2005, 08:02 PM
Well this is interesting. By the way there are two options that we have for Carr and the one we are likely to excersise is for 5.5 million. With the pieces that we have here now we can acheive a good deal of success next year with the right FA's brought in. Instead of Bush 06 and Young 07, You should think Lecharles Bentley, some OLs, another CB and a some pass rush specialist.

I have not heard of this option. Do you know the contract details of both the 5.5 and 8 million bonuses? Specifically length.

You gave an excellent reason why we should not re-sign Carr. We should use that money to spend on free agents so we have a solid nucleus for Young when get gets here. Making for an easier transition for him. Specifically we should spend money on the O-Line. But also find key defensive players to plug in. The offense would be set. Johnson, Mathis, Armstong, Bush, and a draft pick would be fine at receiver. Davis, Bush, and Wells would be fine at RB. AND WE NEED A TE. I suggest David Thomas, a senior with great hands from Texas. Oh, and he is Young's favorite target. This offense would be tough enough to defend, then you throw in Young's ability to run. You talk about a tough offense to make a game plan for. This is why Texas is so effective, they have so many guys who can make plays and a few who are versitle.

Coach C.
11-15-2005, 08:14 PM
Texas is a college team and that does not matter much why they are effective. I dont care about why UT is effective ll I want to be effective is the Texans. The 5.5 option is a reason to keep Carr. We will part ways with a decent amount of players this offseason so we should have a decent amount of money to put playmakers as you would like around a better QB in CARR.

aj.
11-15-2005, 08:18 PM
I have not heard of this option. Do you know the contract details of both the 5.5 and 8 million bonuses? Specifically length.


Two year option: $5.5 mill s/b, base salaries of $5 mill in '06 and $5.25 mill in '07.

Three year option: $8 mill s/b, base salaries of $5.25 mill in '06 and '07, and $6 mill in '08.

I favor the two year option.

Napa Auto Parts
11-15-2005, 09:16 PM
Two year option: $5.5 mill s/b, base salaries of $5 mill in '06 and $5.25 mill in '07.

Three year option: $8 mill s/b, base salaries of $5.25 mill in '06 and '07, and $6 mill in '08.

I favor the two year option.



I favor Not picking up the Bonus and try and restructure another contract something more about the line as of 900,000 base salary a year wich would would be plenty the way the man has been playing.

Texan80Buc80fan+
11-15-2005, 09:20 PM
No QB can survive with the horrible O-Line you have. It's a fact. Carr would be a very good QB if you had a solid O-Line. Vince Young, Leinhart, or any other QB will get kiled there. Id you do end up drafting a QB it could end up like the Eli situation with SD.

Anyway good luck down the stretch. Glad to see AirDre back from his injury too which should help big time.

bigcarlos
11-15-2005, 09:27 PM
We need Vince:texflag:

Texan Gal 312
11-15-2005, 09:41 PM
Being an orange blood, I love Vince. Unfortunately, Vince would look like a deer in the headlights behind our offensive line.
We need an offensive line COACH. I read today where the Patriots entire offensive line salary cap figure this year is less than Walter Jones cap figure. It seems they can plug in rookies and other teams cast offs and do just fine. It has to be the coaching.

Coach C.
11-15-2005, 10:05 PM
I am voting for Dennison from Denver

HJam72
11-15-2005, 10:11 PM
I would be LESS upset about it if he was on a winning team. Should they keep him at that price? At this point, I really don't know. I thought his protection against Indy was pretty good and he didn't impress me at all. The main thing I remember is that bomb he threw way too deep for AJ when the defender was in a better position to run that far. The only thing that stopped an int. was the fact that the throw was so horrible. That was one of the most brain-dead AND inaccurate throws I've ever seen. I don't even think it was a safety issue. The corner just had AJ beat deep.

I've defended Carr in the past and I still think he has a lot of heart, but I'm starting to wonder about that accuracy that he never seems to actually show and also about his decision making skills that a lot of people have questioned. Maybe I just expected too much when he finally got decent protection.

mean mark8
11-15-2005, 10:37 PM
Here's just a thought I'm throwing out there.

What if we played Ragone for a half and Carr for a half in our next 3 or so ball games?

I think it would fairly evaluate how Carr's performing rather than just simply benching him and letting Ragone play against what is supposed to be easier teams in 5 of the last 7 games. If Ragone outplays him, Ragone earns more playing time and McNair has something to think about before just handing over $8 million plus $5.5 million salary for 2 years and $6 million for one more to a QB who hasn't shown too much more than incredible guts and a decent start last year. If Ragone isn't the QB that he looked like in Europe and stinks things up, it should be a lot easier signing Carr and looking for coaching and line help. To me this sounds like a sound business decision. Who cares about trying Banks because he is not the QB of our future. This is just to see if Ragone might be. Remember, Tom Brady replaced a former number one overall pick while he was in his second year after being drafted in the 6th round, 199th overall.

utahmark
11-15-2005, 10:38 PM
3 and 1/2 years with awful protection and 2 or 3 games with a little better than awful protection. im going to give him a little more time than that before i give up on him.

and the better protection is partly because we are keeping 7 or 8 guys in to block and sending 1 or 2 recievers on routes. so carr doesnt have much of an option to throw downfield. forcing him to dump the ball off. then we boo.

mean mark8
11-15-2005, 10:49 PM
3 and 1/2 years with awful protection and 2 or 3 games with a little better than awful protection. im going to give him a little more time than that before i give up on him.

and the better protection is partly because we are keeping 7 or 8 guys in to block and sending 1 or 2 recievers on routes. so carr doesnt have much of an option to throw downfield. forcing him to dump the ball off. then we boo.

You have nothing for comparison to this point. I'm not saying we dump him right now. I'm saying we see if under similar circumstances someone else outperforms him. How many people do you think were calling for Bellichek's(sp?) head when Bledsoe got healthy and didn't return to the line-up? We're at a point in our season where we can go ahead and see what the other guy's got. They'll be running the same offense behind the same line. Maybe we'll see no difference and it won't make any pictures clearer but what if Ragone steps in and starts finding guys 15 yards downfield while Carr continues his 5-8 yard passes? Wouldn't that start making you at least think about Carr's decision making? It's an experiment that could help make McNair's decision easier. It might also give him leverage to renegotiate the terms of Carr's deal. What have we got to lose?

HoustonFan
11-15-2005, 10:58 PM
No QB can survive with the horrible O-Line you have. It's a fact. Carr would be a very good QB if you had a solid O-Line. Vince Young, Leinhart, or any other QB will get kiled there. Id you do end up drafting a QB it could end up like the Eli situation with SD.


I could see that happening. I want to know what other QB would want to come here after seeing what Carr has gone through. They didn't address the needs on offense and he has suffered b/c of it. I favor that second option as well. However, if there is room for discussion on another contract for less - after all you've gotta hold yourself accountable and ask yourself if your play was really worth that check

Re-sign him, address and fix the offensive line, new coach - new WIN NOW attitude, and let's give it a go.

Scooter
11-15-2005, 11:20 PM
i'm in full belief that carr's option, atleast the two-year variety, will be picked up. what i'm most curious about, is those that are praising young and bush to be the next marino and sanders, are yall willingfully ignorant to the fact that our biggest problems are NOT the "skill" positions? our offensive line + TE and our defensive front 7 are ranking with the worst in the league ... the O-line running for the crown of worst EVER. will replacing carr magically make our blocking better? no. if history has any say so, adding a running qb will make it MORE difficult to pass block.

what's carr's problem? he was thrown into the worst situation imaginable ... an expansion team with a new (and terrible) coach, an immediate thrust into the fire of pro football, and no cohesion (or talent) with the guys infront of him. what would be different if we were to toss out carr and bring in young or leinhart? capers and several coaches appear to be on their way out, along with the possibility of the GM. the O-line is as bad now, if not worse. and a fresh draft pick would have noone to sit behind and study for a year to acclimate themself with the change of speed and intensity. maybe i'm entirely off base, but that smells to me like (another) ruining of a lot of potential.

is carr the answer to what we need at qb? maybe not. but i guarantee he's a lot more capable of winning at this level than whatever flavor of the month is currently playing on saturdays.

that being said, if young were to wait and come out after next season, and we've addressed more pressing concerns, then by all means he might make a great pick. he'd have a year to sit behind carr (assuming 2 year option), and we'd hopefully use this year's very high set of draft picks to trade down and stockpile talent/add depth. that would be a 2 or 3 year plan though and many fans have very little patience left, if any.

Double Barrel
11-15-2005, 11:44 PM
Well this is interesting. By the way there are two options that we have for Carr and the one we are likely to excersise is for 5.5 million. With the pieces that we have here now we can acheive a good deal of success next year with the right FA's brought in. Instead of Bush 06 and Young 07, You should think Lecharles Bentley, some OLs, another CB and a some pass rush specialist.

Well said, and probably our most likely option. Carr isn't going anywhere, folks, so the weekly ditch-Carr-draft-Young thread isn't going to change anything.

Besides, we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. If we draft a QB, we need to sit him for a year or two in order for us to build a solid o-line and let him grow into the NFL. If there is any lesson to be learned about Carr, it's the fact that starting a rookie QB is a sketchy proposition, at best.

Better leadership and coaching, along with some good draft picks and FA signings, could change this team in a season (or two at the most) .

LOUD, PROUD, & TEXAN! :texflag:

See you Sunday night! :fans: :redtowel:

Nighthawk
11-16-2005, 12:20 AM
Besides, we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. If we draft a QB, we need to sit him for a year or two in order for us to build a solid o-line and let him grow into the NFL. Better leadership and coaching, along with some good draft picks and FA signings, could change this team in a season (or two at the most) .


Could we have just a smidge of good sense here? Carr is over. Maybe he's a great guy, devout, spiritually excellent, a model in the community. Maybe on another team he will excel LIKE HE DID FOR 1 YEAR IN COLLEGE. But most important is: WE DON'T NEED HIM NOW. Yes, I'm shouting. I apologize. But lots of folks are not looking at the big picture. Carr's had a dreadful time here, and he needs a fresh start. We need draft picks. Carr might be worth a draft pick if somebody out there still thinks he can be a top flight QB (I doubt this, but they say there's one born every minute; plus, maybe Carr will be great with a change of scene, new coaches, a new line, etc).

So, we should sign Carr to the short term deal, and trade him in the off season before the draft. Add the draft picks to our stock and then hope the NEW GM & COACH can do better than the departing Mutt & Jeff. We don't need to draft any specific QB, though that would be up to the new coach and GM. I'm hoping that's 1 person, the savvy, talent-wise JJ. But if somebody else, whoever it is cannot be worse than the squirrels currently running the show.

The question I have, being the 40 year fan that I am, is whether or not this "sign him and trade him" scenario is even possible in the NFL nowadays.

Davis37
11-16-2005, 12:52 AM
I agree with Scooter. Good post. Also, Nighthawk, if we exercise the option on Carr (as we almost certinally will) there will be no trading. Carr is going to be our punching bag for another year or two while we fix the OL (hopefully). Once we have an at least average OL, we can take a look at Carr and decided if he is the QB of the future for our franchise or not. IMO we wont start looking for a new QB unless Carr flops these next 2-3 years.

bckey
11-16-2005, 01:13 AM
The best thing we can do if we exercise one of the options on Carr is to bring in a veteran qb to compete with Carr for the job. I'm not talking about Banks either. Banks couldn't even make the Cowboys roster. Vinny has said this over and over. You don't sign a guy out of college and give him the starting job from day 1 with no competition for that job. Look at how Carr has played and he has never once been benched in 3 1/2 years for playing bad. I'm not a Carr hater. I just believe competition brings out the best in everyone.

beerlover
11-16-2005, 03:24 AM
the problem the Texans face is that the talent across the board is mediocre. the skill'ed positions are average and need better than average lines to support them & the lines being average also need better skill'ed position players to make up for their shortcomings. they feed off each other & when it goes bad like it has this year they all look bad.

that being said you don't need Dan Marino or Peyton Manning to win the Superbowl. what you need is a complimentary QB to the personel who understands the scheme & can adjust under a variety of circumstances. For the investment we're talking about here, for a team that spent 800 million to become a reality I would be hard pressed to believe they would throw it all down the drain for "Three year option: $8 mill s/b, base salaries of $5.25 mill in '06 and '07, and $6 mill in '08" - AJ.

Carr stays. Carr Improves. The Texans Improve. :texans:

aj.
11-16-2005, 06:10 AM
I favor Not picking up the Bonus and try and restructure another contract something more about the line as of 900,000 base salary a year wich would would be plenty the way the man has been playing.

The whole purpose of a restructure is to convert base to bonus so you can lower the current base and defer cap dollars over future years. Base and bonus - in the case of a restructure - are not mutually exclusive.

The terms of Carr's extension were already set when he signed his original deal in '02. They are paying him the bonus before the season ends so they can prorate either a third or a fourth (depending on which option they choose) on this season's cap.

In the early 70's Dan Pastroini heard a lot of the same crap from fans that Carr is hearing now. Dante ended up playing in a couple of AFC championship games once he got better talent around him, a solid defense, and a coaching staff that the players could respond to. Pastorini is now held in very high esteem among old Oilers fans. Things can and do change over time. Now if we can just find the 2006 versions of Bum and Earl.

Tedc
11-16-2005, 06:29 AM
Every year at the Texans Luncheon , Capers would say they were leaning defensive in terms of the draft. Every year we have issues with the line.

When the Texans hire a new GM he will have a good QB with no line, a great draft set-up and about 8 million in cap space. Not a bad situation.

Texan Gal 312
11-16-2005, 06:39 AM
I would be LESS upset about it if he was on a winning team. Should they keep him at that price? At this point, I really don't know. I thought his protection against Indy was pretty good and he didn't impress me at all. The main thing I remember is that bomb he threw way too deep for AJ when the defender was in a better position to run that far. The only thing that stopped an int. was the fact that the throw was so horrible. That was one of the most brain-dead AND inaccurate throws I've ever seen. I don't even think it was a safety issue. The corner just had AJ beat deep.

I've defended Carr in the past and I still think he has a lot of heart, but I'm starting to wonder about that accuracy that he never seems to actually show and also about his decision making skills that a lot of people have questioned. Maybe I just expected too much when he finally got decent protection.

They are preaching to Carr to throw the ball away. That is exactly what he did on that play. My guess is we were in a max protect, probably a 2 or 3 receiver route at most which they were covering with 7 guys. Carr drops back, has the mental clock 1 and a throw the ball. Andre wasn't open -he had someone on underneath coverage also - so Carr did as instructed and threw it away.
Of course this is speculation as we have no coaching film. But after focusing on the wide receivers from my seat in the 600's at the home games -it is reasonably educated speculation.

It seems to me Carr is pretty accurate when he has time to step up in the pocket and throw and is not getting mashed when he throws. If you noticed, the few times we pressured Manning he was not as accurate. If you see Carr making throws and not finishing on the ground and missing OPEN receivers - then question his accuracy. And occassionally, pro bowl quarterbacks make a bad pass - it happens.

aj.
11-16-2005, 06:42 AM
The derelict nature of the Texans o-line is a bit overstated IMO. Drop Tom Moore in here with our existing players under a different head coaching philosophy and I bet you see at least a 16th ranked offense instead of the current 32nd ranking.

Tedc
11-16-2005, 07:09 AM
The derelict nature of the Texans o-line is a bit overstated IMO. Drop Tom Moore in here with our existing players under a different head coaching philosophy and I bet you see at least a 16th ranked offense instead of the current 32nd ranking.

Very possible but you would still be one injury from 32. We need some real depth. I think two solid players at thier natural positions along with our current group would be a nice, but I like your thinking AJ.

Coach C.
11-16-2005, 07:13 AM
I understand all fans being quite upset about the team this year, and for the most part we are reaching for good points. I would like to claim that we have a decent amount of players, yes less playmakers than most teams, but enough to make some noise. I think it has come down to system and coaching. If you look at the NFL this year QBs are getting hit more and interceptions are up. Why due to the changes in defense. Teams that run the Cover 2 are sending more blitzes well hell everyone is sendingn more blitzes and dropping into man zones and man. Our personel is playing in a system that does not fit their talents. AJ is comparable to a TO big, fast, not overly great hands, but the routes he runs are useless in the system. Carr is a gunslinger and we put reigns on him. To me once the system is changed as fans we will get what we expect out of this team. Use the two year 5.5mil option on Carr and if he does not work out then we part ways and it does not cost us that much in the long run.

MorKnolle
11-16-2005, 08:58 AM
The derelict nature of the Texans o-line is a bit overstated IMO. Drop Tom Moore in here with our existing players under a different head coaching philosophy and I bet you see at least a 16th ranked offense instead of the current 32nd ranking.

BTW as a side note we're #31 in total offense ahead of the 49ers and #30 in scoring offense ahead of the Ravens and Jets. Far from acceptable but I thought I'd point that out.

Frills
11-16-2005, 09:54 AM
Vince is just another Kordell Stewart, he is no Mike Vick

He's an NFL WR, the amazing plays he makes will get him on the NFL IR.

Face the facts he is playing in a Big 12 that is way down from previous years, which he's taking advantage.

We are not a #1 draft pick away from great improvement overall, we need an O-line, another CB, both safties, another ILB. So stop thinking that 1 player will take us to the playoffs.

Get the pick, trade down and fill multiple needs.

SESupergenius
11-16-2005, 10:05 AM
Vince is just another Kordell Stewart, he is no Mike Vick

He's an NFL WR, the amazing plays he makes will get him on the NFL IR.

Face the facts he is playing in a Big 12 that is way down from previous years, which he's taking advantage.

We are not a #1 draft pick away from great improvement overall, we need an O-line, another CB, both safties, another ILB. So stop thinking that 1 player will take us to the playoffs.

Get the pick, trade down and fill multiple needs.
Halleluja! Someone with some level headedness. We don't need ANOTHER high salaried player. This will kill us in a few years and we are already starting to feel the pinch with Carrs contract status. This year we have absolutely got to trade down and get more players for depth and evaluation instead of banking on 1 to fix all of our needs. Going for the Best available player is good and all if your needs are minimal, but we have so many glaring needs that we have to utilize our positioning in the draft to cover them. If ever Casserly were the deal maker, this is the time for him to make a good one.

rmartin65
11-16-2005, 01:21 PM
Carr should stay because he is the best possible fit behind the joke that is the oline. Carr has proven he can get absolutely rocked and still play.

yaboycm
11-16-2005, 01:41 PM
I think the reason why Texas is so effective is because their competition is a joke. Fresno State looks great against teams like New Mexico State, San Jose State, etc. Texas looks good against Baylor and the rest of the joke that is the division they are in, at least this year.

No, they have blown out everyone they have played with the exception of Ohio State the second game of the season. Baylor is better this year, they took Oklahoma to overtime with AD on the field. Texas and USC are in a class of their own this year. The main reason Texas' offense clicks is Vince Young and we should draft him.

Frills
11-16-2005, 01:46 PM
Sorry, but when the Texans pick Young will be either gone or not in the draft at all.

Vinny
11-16-2005, 01:56 PM
Sorry, but when the Texans pick Young will be either gone or not in the draft at all.0 isn't really a number. You can't get much higher in the draft than 1.

BigBull17
11-16-2005, 01:59 PM
No, they have blown out everyone they have played with the exception of Ohio State the second game of the season. Baylor is better this year, they took Oklahoma to overtime with AD on the field. Texas and USC are in a class of their own this year. The main reason Texas' offense clicks is Vince Young and we should draft him.
This is a joke. He runs like he has a stick from his head to his ***. That may work in NCAA but in the pros he will get hurt in his first play. He shotputs the ball and really has no competition. Leinart gets shoe stringed and limps off the field and again plays nobody compedative. You have no way to know if Vince or Matt will be the next Vick or Manning or the next Akili Smith or Ryan Leaf. We know Carr can take a hit and keep going, hes mobile and has a cannon. Thats proven. With a good coach who knows how good he can be. And you wanna throw that away for a roll of the dice? Our coaching staff is pathetic so I want us to wait for one more year. If with protection, coaching and weapons he cant get it done then trash him. But let him get one of those things and see what happens.

Kaiser Toro
11-16-2005, 02:16 PM
I would like to resign Carr. I do not want to draft another QB with a top 5 pick ever again. Since the salary cap was instituted history has shown that Super Bowl Winners generally do not have a first round QB at the helm. Spread the wealth if you want to cover the spread. :)

yaboycm
11-16-2005, 02:28 PM
This is a joke. He runs like he has a stick from his head to his ***. That may work in NCAA but in the pros he will get hurt in his first play.
He will get hurt his first play. hahahaha. Ok dude, since you have the crytal ball of injuries. All-Time Yardage leader in Texas history in about 2 1/2 years. Who cares how he runs, he makes people miss and wins.

We know Carr can take a hit and keep going, hes mobile and has a cannon. Thats proven. With a good coach who knows how good he can be. And you wanna throw that away for a roll of the dice? Our coaching staff is pathetic so I want us to wait for one more year. If with protection, coaching and weapons he cant get it done then trash him. But let him get one of those things and see what happens.

He has had 4 years and hasn't done anything or gotten better. He has actually gotten worse. Not a roll of the dice. We have seen him for 4 years and he sucks. What games are you watching?

Frills
11-16-2005, 02:29 PM
We haven't seen Vince play anyone decent either...the Big 12 competes with CUSA this year.

eriadoc
11-16-2005, 02:31 PM
Spread the wealth if you want to cover the spread. :)

But we've been covering the spread this year pretty well. :tomato:

:texans:

Coach C.
11-16-2005, 02:32 PM
OK well since this is not the college and draft message board lets get back on the topic of Carr. Bottom line Carr is not perfect, but for a decent price and a better system he has the ability to lock this down.

Frills
11-16-2005, 02:34 PM
Bottom line is this.

We need to resign him, if we cut him loose, we have to draft another QB with a top pick.

The main problems will still be there, O-line, and Defense. Cutting Carr won't solve that.

Kaiser Toro
11-16-2005, 02:53 PM
Bottom line is this.

We need to resign him, if we cut him loose, we have to draft another QB with a top pick.

The main problems will still be there, O-line, and Defense. Cutting Carr won't solve that.

Where does this logic come from that if we drop Carr we have to draft another QB with the top pick?

Frills
11-16-2005, 02:58 PM
I'm sure the average fan would support a team that has a top pick, cuts the QB and then starts the season with a 3rd rounder.

Vinny
11-16-2005, 03:25 PM
I'm sure the average fan would support a team that has a top pick, cuts the QB and then starts the season with a 3rd rounder.The Patriots got rid of their first overall QB draft pick, went with their 5th round pick and it worked out pretty well for them.

Frills
11-16-2005, 03:34 PM
Note: The first rounder got injured, the late pick filled in and then took over...They didn't cut Bledsoe and then draft Brady and tell the fans here ya go...we got a 5th rounder.

Which bears in mind, would Carr be any better if they let Banks take the pummeling in Y1?

Vinny
11-16-2005, 03:36 PM
You said the average fan wouldn't support a team that didn't keep starting their first overall...I gave you an example of one. I think fans want to win...not just keep starting guys who are not working out.

Kaiser Toro
11-16-2005, 03:39 PM
Who would we start instead?

That is a question for the GM and the HC based upon what the make up of the team will look like next year.

As an fyi, since 2000 there have been 3 former 1st round picks at the QB position start in the Super Bowl, McNair, Dilfer and Collins. Only one has won, Dilfer.

Why do we need to take a QB in the first round?

SESupergenius
11-16-2005, 04:16 PM
You said the average fan wouldn't support a team that didn't keep starting their first overall...I gave you an example of one. I think fans want to win...not just keep starting guys who are not working out.
Seriously though, how often does that scenario work out? Do you want me to name you several scenarios throughout the NFL history where a later round backup QB was handed the reigns and fell flat on his face?

Vinny
11-16-2005, 04:18 PM
All I said was that fans want to win....I really don't have any particular player that I just have to have on any team I support. I just want the best players, and if we don't have them, I'd like to see them upgraded. First overall pick, unsigned FA...doesn't matter much to me.

Texan Gal 312
11-16-2005, 08:59 PM
You said the average fan wouldn't support a team that didn't keep starting their first overall...I gave you an example of one. I think fans want to win...not just keep starting guys who are not working out.

I get your point and maybe I am forgetting something but I don't think New England acquired Bledsoe as a rookie with their number one draft pick.

yaboycm
11-16-2005, 09:02 PM
We haven't seen Vince play anyone decent either...the Big 12 competes with CUSA this year.

The Ohio State. Tech. A&M. OU. Colorado in a couple of weeks.

All respectable teams.

Kansas actually had a good defense

Vinny
11-16-2005, 09:19 PM
I get your point and maybe I am forgetting something but I don't think New England acquired Bledsoe as a rookie with their number one draft pick.1993 NFL Draft

Round Pick Player Name Team Position College
1 1 1 Drew Bledsoe Patriots QB Washington State
2 2 Rick Mirer Seahawks QB Notre Dame
3 3 Garrison Hearst Cardinals RB Georgia
4 4 Marvin Jones Jets LB Florida State
5 5 John Copeland Bengals DE Alabama
6 6 Eric Curry Buccaneers DE Alabama
7 7 Curtis Conway Bears WR USC
8 8 Willie Roaf Saints T Louisiana Tech
9 9 Lincoln Kennedy Falcons T Washington

http://drafthistory.com/years/1993.html

infantrycak
11-16-2005, 10:07 PM
The Patriots got rid of their first overall QB draft pick, went with their 5th round pick and it worked out pretty well for them.

Just an FYI--Brady was actually a bottom of the 6th round pick, 33rd pick in the round (sounds like a non-tradeable FA compensation pick), almost a 7th rounder.

eriadoc
11-16-2005, 10:16 PM
I get your point and maybe I am forgetting something but I don't think New England acquired Bledsoe as a rookie with their number one draft pick.

People blasted the Pats as crazy for taking Bledsoe ahead of Mirer; I remember that.

tulexan
11-16-2005, 10:29 PM
The Ohio State. Tech. A&M. OU. Colorado in a couple of weeks.

All respectable teams.

Kansas actually had a good defense


Saying that A&M has been respectable is questionable. Saying that Big 12 is comparable to C-USA is a stretch, but no one can say that the Big 12 is anywhere near the cream of the crop from top to bottom of the conference. They have 1 good team, a few mediocre teams, and a lot of really bad teams. But that is a different discussion.

The Bledsoe/Brady situation is much different than the Carr situation. Bledsoe got hurt and then Brady led them to a Super Bowl victory. He earned his starting job just like Jake Delhomme earned his starting position after being a backup by leading the Panthers to a Super Bowl after Rodney Peete got injured.

The fans accepted those guys because they led their teams to the Super Bowl. Dave Ragone isn't going to lead this team to the Super Bowl. I don't care if he is the Peyton Manning of NFL Europe, he can't even beat out Tony Banks for the backup spot.

mean mark8
11-16-2005, 10:34 PM
And actually, Brady was a 6th round pick in only his second year.

Just because you are picked in a later round doesn't mean you don't have what it takes. Terrell Davis of the Broncos was also a 6th round pick. They also had an 11th rounder by the name of Karl Mecklenberg that became All-pro. Joe Montana was a 3rd round selection the same year they took Dwight Clarke in the 10th. I might add that they finished with the worst record in the league in the prior year and were winning the Super Bowl 2 years later. Jake DelHomme was an undrafted free agent. Kurt Warner was another undrafted free agent who actually backed up Banks behind Steve Bono when they were all with the Rams.

First round flops are plenty: Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Tony Mandarich, Ki-Jana Carter, Art Schlichter, Heath Shuler, Kelly Stouffer, Blair Thomas, Lawrence Phillips, Rick Mirer, Rashaan Salaam, etc.

At some point somebody just has to determine that the later round selection deserves a chance, especially when the high-priced 1st rounder isn't producing and is going to cost a lot of money to keep around. These are just plain examples.

mean mark8
11-16-2005, 10:42 PM
...Dave Ragone isn't going to lead this team to the Super Bowl. I don't care if he is the Peyton Manning of NFL Europe, he can't even beat out Tony Banks for the backup spot.

You base this assessment on a coaching staff that had Riley starting at left tackle? The only reason Banks is our #2 is because he's an old veteran, period. This coaching staff believes you need that as your number 2 just because. They don't have a clue how to evaluate talent and who should play. Why isn't Armstrong playing? Where's Glenn Earl? Why do they seem to play Bradford over Gaffney and the aforementioned Armstrong? Why don't we have a pass receiving tight-end? Why'd we let Aaron Glen go for nothing? Who said Greenwood could play inside LB? Our team has the 3rd highest payroll in the league and has held a lead for all of 24 minutes and 58 seconds after 9 games, do you think these coaches can evaluate talent and use it appropriately?

Frills
11-16-2005, 11:03 PM
Bledsoe was a #1 pick.

The difference is that he got injured midway through the season and his back-up, a late round rookie took over and led the team to the Superbowl. Bledsoe was then cut in the offseason.

If we cut Carr and start a late rounder, it wouldn't even be close to what happened in NE.

Brady still had Bledsoe around when going through the issues rookie QB's have. NE was an established team with leadership.

It wasn't like they cut Bledsoe, ignored their hole at QB till the 5th round and then got Brady.

If the Texans were to try to tell everyone that some 5th round pick was going to be their starter next season, there would be hell to pay

Vinny
11-16-2005, 11:05 PM
Bledsoe wasn't cut, he was traded to the Bills. Also he struggled before he was injured (and not as much as Carr does). Brady wasn't considered "the answer" untill he played.

Napa Auto Parts
11-16-2005, 11:07 PM
Bledsoe wasn't cut, he was traded to the Bills.



For a first round at that i believe.

tulexan
11-16-2005, 11:18 PM
But Bledsoe was already at the decline of his career. After he was traded he had 1 good season with the Bills and then a bunch of really bad ones. He is playing better this season, but if he doesn't have complete protection he is garbage. The man is practically a statue when he has the ball.

Vinny
11-16-2005, 11:19 PM
But Bledsoe was already at the decline of his career. The Bills traded a first round pick for him.

mean mark8
11-16-2005, 11:22 PM
Bledsoe was a #1 pick.

The difference is that he got injured midway through the season and his back-up, a late round rookie took over and led the team to the Superbowl. Bledsoe was then cut in the offseason.

If we cut Carr and start a late rounder, it wouldn't even be close to what happened in NE.

Brady still had Bledsoe around when going through the issues rookie QB's have. NE was an established team with leadership.

It wasn't like they cut Bledsoe, ignored their hole at QB till the 5th round and then got Brady.

If the Texans were to try to tell everyone that some 5th round pick was going to be their starter next season, there would be hell to pay

Ragone was a 3rd round pick. Brady was a 6th round pick. Montana was a 3rd round pick. Kurt Warner and Jake Delhomme were undrafted free agents.

What was Kelly Holcombe who replaced a former #1 in Couch? Drew Brees was a 2nd round pick, who granted was almost run out of town, but has beat out their sort-of #1 overall pick in Rivers. Big Ben had the great Tommy Maddox to teach him the trade. :sarcasm: If the team wins, everyone will be happy. If the team loses, no amount of overall #1 picks is going to make anyone happy.

blankfixation
11-16-2005, 11:52 PM
Here's just a thought I'm throwing out there.

What if we played Ragone for a half and Carr for a half in our next 3 or so ball games?

I think it would fairly evaluate how Carr's performing rather than just simply benching him and letting Ragone play against what is supposed to be easier teams in 5 of the last 7 games. If Ragone outplays him, Ragone earns more playing time and McNair has something to think about before just handing over $8 million plus $5.5 million salary for 2 years and $6 million for one more to a QB who hasn't shown too much more than incredible guts and a decent start last year. If Ragone isn't the QB that he looked like in Europe and stinks things up, it should be a lot easier signing Carr and looking for coaching and line help. To me this sounds like a sound business decision. Who cares about trying Banks because he is not the QB of our future. This is just to see if Ragone might be. Remember, Tom Brady replaced a former number one overall pick while he was in his second year after being drafted in the 6th round, 199th overall.


agreed:ok:

Nighthawk
11-17-2005, 01:12 AM
I would be hard pressed to believe they would throw it all down the drain for "Three year option: $8 mill s/b, base salaries of $5.25 mill in '06 and '07, and $6 mill in '08" - AJ.

Carr stays. Carr Improves. The Texans Improve. :texans:

I don't know what makes you think Carr will improve, but that's what makes the world go around, I guess. To my eye he is now--and has been from day 1--a surprisingly incompetent NFL QB with no field sense, no pocket awareness, no reading ability, no leadership quality, and a cannon arm.

Kaiser Toro
11-18-2005, 09:30 AM
If is wasn't for the last part on the cannon arm, I read this same post about 5 time pro-bowler Mcnabb. They had " big game choker " instead. Would to add " have a great game sunday.. Super Dave. " :texflag:

I would kill for a QB who could lead us to a big game.

MorKnolle
11-18-2005, 02:02 PM
Here's just a thought I'm throwing out there.

What if we played Ragone for a half and Carr for a half in our next 3 or so ball games?

I think it would fairly evaluate how Carr's performing rather than just simply benching him and letting Ragone play against what is supposed to be easier teams in 5 of the last 7 games. If Ragone outplays him, Ragone earns more playing time and McNair has something to think about before just handing over $8 million plus $5.5 million salary for 2 years and $6 million for one more to a QB who hasn't shown too much more than incredible guts and a decent start last year. If Ragone isn't the QB that he looked like in Europe and stinks things up, it should be a lot easier signing Carr and looking for coaching and line help. To me this sounds like a sound business decision. Who cares about trying Banks because he is not the QB of our future. This is just to see if Ragone might be. Remember, Tom Brady replaced a former number one overall pick while he was in his second year after being drafted in the 6th round, 199th overall.

That would be a horrible decision. Teams that utilize these QB-by-committees where QBs trade time in each game are always bad, and I don't know that it has ever really been attempted in the NFL. A QB cannot get any kind of flow or rhythm for the game if they play the first quarter, then sit out the next two quarters, and come back in for the fourth. If we wanted to see what Ragone can do this season, and I don't, we should just play him for a game or two somewhere in there rather than trying to split time on a single game with him and Carr. This would both be bad for the team and likely not give either of them a chance to get going in the game and give any kind of accurate reflection of what they are capable of. Either way, Ragone gets a chance to prove himself in practice every day and obviously he has done nothing to suggest to the coaches that they should put him in the game, so I'm against him playing at all barring injuries or maybe putting him in at the end of a blowout game.